 Meeting of the Montpelier Roxbury Public School Board of Directors The first item on the agenda is public comment. I do not see any public Move on to the action items under number three And I add before you get into that I would like to add one item to the action items, please all of you have a copy of the minutes of March 28th 2018 special meeting for the purpose of retreat for the Montpelier Roxbury Board of School Directors We could do both minutes, I think in one motion to move approval of the minutes Small approve. I make a motion that we approve the minutes of March 28th and March 21st 2018 Second. All in favor? Any opposed? Discussion. Oh, they were supposed to be discussion It's not a consent agenda, so you're right Which is the same as the March 21st minutes, which keeps saying that I was absent But you were there. But I don't think I was absent Maybe I left the room for something God you did you stepped out. Okay, great Well documented No motions to amend All those in favor? Second item on the agenda is the approval of the bleacher bid is that for The bid was actually just for bleachers here and in the middle school In the hopes that maybe the bids would come in low enough they asked for alternates for a Jim Curtin here as well as the middle school and to To repair or replace some backwards here at the high school so the bids actually came in well enough to accept the alternates, so we're getting Two sets of bleachers to Jim Curtin's and we're getting the backwards replaced here So all of that was within the amount and Recommendation was to approve a plus athletic products as the lowest responsible As far as inside the gymnasium itself Without the locker rooms and surrounding the gymnasium itself The only really only in the bond really related to the gymnasium itself was HVAC And the roof any other questions for grant Emotion to approve the bond and move we approve a plus athletic products bid for Gymnasium work with the high school in the middle school All second Any discussion all those in favor? Any opposed? There's a new teacher contract All those in favor You can pass the blue sheets into Even reading these All right, we're moving on to the beamers item, and I'm not even going to read the whole thing Let you take it away It says that they will Allow administrators without teacher licenses to participate in gamers under group C and all other eligible employees This is basically status quo this is what we have But since it's a new entity they need something recorded that you have made that decision So for anyone in the public who is following along and still awake Beemers is the retirement system that our non teacher employees participate Participate in which is the Vermont municipal employees retirement system And on the bottom of the memo from Brian Beemers under group C and all other eligible employees to participate under group B Any discussion All in favor any opposed and then This is the approval of the vis-v-it power of attorney and member agreement And there will be more in future meetings, but Both Roxbury and Montpelier use the Vermont school board's insurance trust for general liability insurance workers compensation and employment So whenever you do that this big it's a power of attorney and a member of remit That Roxbury has done as part of Washington's South and we have on file with this bit for Montpelier This is the exit these are the exact same documents that we already have on file with them But unfortunately, it's as Montpelier public schools So they need the same documents, but as monthly rocks buried and so if I assume we're fine with this bit I'm happy with them. So it was okay with it Then you just need to approve the vis-v-it power of attorney and member agreement and authorize me to sign those documents So we're on course to have our coverage as a So it's a trust that provides our basically provides our liability and first-comp insurance Most most school districts use vis-v-it probably So I move we approve the vis-v-it power of attorney and member agreement and authorize business manager Grant Geisler to sign documents Second Any discussion of the vis-v-it motion all those in favor? any opposed and This is the next thing is what Grant talked to the Montpelier board about briefly earlier the approval of the declaration of intent to reimburse bond expenses And Paul Giuliani who wears many hats in this case he's a bond counsel He recommends that Everybody who gets a bond should have an approval of declaration intent to reimburse bond expenses. What that allows you to do is We want to get bond proceeds until probably sometime in July or maybe early August if we are incurring a lot of Expense up until that time or architectural work or anything else that might happen If we have this declaration of intent to reimburse then I could go back with bond proceeds in July or August and I could Reimverse our like our general funder our fund balance and charge it to the bond So I'm not sure we would do that but I do want the flexibility to be able to do that And I think there's language To reimburse expense does the part about Tammy legacy need to be in the motion. No, but we'll just show Recommendation from mr. Giuliani So I move we approve the declaration of intent to reimburse bond expenses any discussion this motion All those in favor All right, and the last action item is the approval of the United Peoples United Bank Resolution And this is only one that they will need we use people's United Bank for a scholarship fund and since we don't anticipate any activity on that account between now and July 1st we can go ahead and transfer that from your public schools to Roxbury and We will have another Resolution kind of like this Probably right near July 1 and you may not Well, I'll try it. I'll probably have you approve it right before the summer break to get like our community national accounts Transferred as well, but this is just Court but yeah And I will need at some point to contact Jim Murphy And it's long Has a list of people who are authorized On there Those are those are I can let you know those those are the members of our crafters edge team So the scholarship account is the Cori fund and then there's also one other account and it's crafters edge And so those names are The first page So different School Which runs crafters edges They make great furniture Every year the eighth grade has a company that's called crafters edge at the end of seventh grade the seventh graders apply for Jobs in the company for the following year. They have to submit applications. They have to get references. They get interviews What you know how you get a job in life and then they They run the middle school dances as fundraisers. They sell baked goods and You can order pies you can order cookies you can order quiches any time from the kids who are Cooking for crafters edge. They have a big craft sale in the fall where they sell a lot of their wood products As Bridget said you can get a lovely table. They have beautiful out cutting boards. There's something for every budget I'll make a drawer organizer to your exact specifications of your drawer They do really good work and they and they put on a dinner theater Which is coming up at the beginning of May. I think it's May 3rd and 4th. They'll be performing the Madagascar the high school and the community is welcome You can buy tickets for the dinner and the show or just the dinner or just the show and they the kids make a Great usually Italian pasta kind of dinner, but fancy sure It's not just a big bowl of spaghetti. It's a good dinner And they put on a great play Drip and they all Choose some community Give some money for Zed and they bring some of it to the high school for their class activities More than you ever wanted to know but it's a Good Thank You Grant So some of the policy policies we had listed for second reading first reading Wasn't totally accurate. Does that make a difference how we start this if we have to get that corrected now or if it Is okay to continue With where they presented? I Think we should probably correct the second reading So the It's the board member conflict of interest be see board member code of conduct D board superintendent relationship policies We'll be discussed tonight, but because we didn't reach them the last time So they're still in first reading So the reality for this is there's no There's no there's no minimum or maximum number of readings. So if you read a Policy on a first reading and there's no substantive changes. It can be adopted at the next meeting The the critical part is that there's a 10-day warning for adoption So we can certainly be clear about what's first second or third But ultimately it's not the most critical point for us is that we give the 10-day warning for when they are ready to be adopted I don't think it affects the order in which we take things and I So just so this is sort of outlined in the memo, but the folks are are clear Tonight we're going to talk about the conflict of interest code of conduct and board superintendent relationship as a discussion Those are really in a draft form and really just looking looking for a fairly robust Discussion and input on where we're going with those the Everything else in the list under second reading Are things that we have already? Discussed a We need to revisit the interdistrict school policy has changed We're definitely going to revisit and then I think EF GNH substitute teachers fiscal management budget execution volunteers and work-studies students We did talk about it in the last meeting We're not adopting them tonight because they had not been on the website And now they are my understanding So they'll be up for adoption next week So we don't have to have substantive discussion on those Well, they actually know what I thought they can't be up for adoption next week because that won't be within the 10-day warning So they'll be up for adoption at the first meeting in May No, I actually have comment okay as I was reading through all of these policies I thought to myself first of all, I wanted to thank you and Ryan policy committee for This is a lot of work But I was it occurred to me that it's an unusual place to be in to have a whole board Read all of the policies that will be in existence Before their in existence, which is July 1st, and it's an interesting thing to me You usually get handed a big policy book and maybe you look at a couple of policies, but we will have read them all So I thank you very much All right So I think we should start with the first reading ones We'll start with those and then you might switch around the order on the second reading I'll see but These are the three that we are looking at for the first time New board alcohol and drug free workplace drug and alcohol testing of transportation employees and prevention of employee harassment Brian gave us all an additional Steve if you need the And the packet that's Is relevant to Yep, it's relevant to the drug and alcohol testing for transportation employees Sure, so the these are from the Mentor list from the VSBA website Lori and I went through these they are similar to the ones that are already in effect for both Montpelier and Roxbury There are no substantive changes that we are recommending to either one of these What I did want to point out and that's why I gave you the extra packet Because the drug and alcohol testing is so minimal. I thought it would be helpful for the board to see what our current bus company student transportation of America does in terms of a comprehensive drug and alcohol testing program With the caveat that we are out to bid for our next bus in contract. So this For the time being is in effect while we are partnered and contracted with student transportation of America We'll have something similar with whomever else we contract with if we end up not going with student transportation of America Yes, and that's covered in there there are percentages by which they go they Review and go by and employees must sign off on the randomness of the So I drive the citizen bus and they drive up in a truck and Call out somebody like me to go in to be drug tested The one about an alcohol and drug fee workplace is really simply about notification of it If any individual is convicted or pleads no contendray That would be a recommendation to you as a board depending on the circumstances for dismissal And in terms of the prevention of employee harassment Again, very much boilerplate and both what Roxbury and one player public schools already have In effect. So no substantive changes So I have a question about the alcohol and drug fee Yes, this is a policy that governs people that No, but each building specifically the high school has its own drug and alcohol requirements and those are listed in the handbook So yes, this is just for employees. That is correct. I was glad to see there's Someone other than the principal you could report to less the principal Yes So so just to bring up a comment with my Day job, we had to undergo a legal review of our alcohol and drug free workplace Policies in light of a couple of things including anticipated legalization of marijuana And how that would affect potential drug testing After accidents or incidents As it turned out our current policy the attorney felt was strong enough But just to raise a flag perhaps that someone might want to take a second look at that I think that has a better eye then thank you very much. I appreciate being that was not even on the radar Any questions on the transportation or the prevention of a fully harassing This the harassment one is fairly similar to the student harassment We are required to have each one And procedures come with again much like the student one Is this is the legal standard on this for action by the district is that is that in statute? So in other words, is this under procedure? You know, I'm not familiar with the harassment laws and how that plays out There's a pretty strong standard where the district must take actions and that is the case I mean if you see the under the duty of invest to investigate We are required to investigate the harassment even if the complaintant does not wish to proceed with a formal complaint So it's it's essentially much like How all of our all of the adults that work within proximity of students are mandated reporters We are mandated Investigators if we learn in some way that harassment may have taken place Even if I approach you as the potential complaintant and say it's understood from a conversation I had with Tina that This conversation was held and directed at you you could potentially confirm it and say but I don't wish for this to go forward that it is not That will not deter my investigation I will tell you that anytime we've had either one of these I've been quickly in consultation with our legal team and have outlined the procedures That we will take in order to do that. So it's done on a case-by-case basis. It's done on a case-by-case basis There is Right, I'm right, but it's not it is It's not quite And these categories are the Categories for protection This is mirroring the oh the list of protected In addition to it in other words or I mean, I'm sure it's a If there are no further concerns on these I would propose that we warn them for adoption at the May Second sounds like the first meeting I'd say the first meeting in that is that the will of this board for these three Thank you It seemed like a discussion the board had Two weeks ago regarding the in district elementary school transfer policy was We like the direction we want more specifics in there make a very clear cut in terms of what to expect So that's what we put forward for the second draft that's in front of us tonight is Again kind of that same theme that we're at this point in time not anticipating students transferring regularly between elementary schools So we outlined what parents might expect to see if they were to ask to do so And the section where the line is drawn through it you're taking out Yes And so Since I didn't hear the discussion The question I had had is it says the board of school directors will consider parent requests for industry Transfers does anything happen before that this does not indicate In other words if I'm a parent and I wish Transfer somehow to my student does something happen before it comes to us Good question. Yeah, so a lot of the other policies I think any Mr.. Conversation the first time around a lot of the districts that we looked at or that I looked at drafted this policy regarding elementary school in a district transfers They allowed it so their policy was much more in-depth in terms of details on how that's implemented and who does what? so Those districts who would have had essentially an expected transfer students between buildings Had pretty much everything geared towards a superintendent for the administration Dear toward the meaning they were making the decision right things weren't coming the decision wasn't coming to the board In those districts who were expecting a lot of transfers So They were different there, but no we don't have anything in terms of Well, I've personally been asked You know, we don't have a policy on it yet, but you know had a conversation, but you're right There's no procedure. There's nothing to tell us that we should send them to the principal or we should send them to the superintendent Or write a letter to the board for what to do. I mean, we usually take advice from the administrators And they hadn't been consulted for example would be hard to get advice, right? So is it So maybe just put some more specifics in here in terms of how requests should be sent how they're handled That'd be What I was my aggressive board I mean, I think that yeah, I think it might just simply adding something like that the board shall act on the or shall You know act on the recommendation of superintendent or shall You know something like that if the board wants to retain authority to make the final decision But the other thing is that I mean effectively this is this is a policy of permission. So it's saying we will do it It doesn't quite say that is we will do it if these things are met effectively. So we're we've changed this around Instead of saying we're not doing it. We are doing it. Yeah I mean, I'm not sure we resolved that either way Maybe you Ryan you have a memory of that, but it feels like if we're saying yes It's okay. I mean at the big the big caveat or the big if you want to circle one phrase in here It's student needs students needs are is a very large undefined Issue here and so it still leaves us with that subjective standard that somebody's going to have to Way against the other stuff. So maybe that's what we wanted, but it's pretty big hole I guess I'm concerned that we've lost the concept that it would be only an extraordinary circumstances Yeah, it doesn't read that way. It doesn't read that. I think it does kind of read now like this is something you can ask for So we need to tie Does anyone think I just want to pursue the issue that here does anyone think it should be the superintendent's decision and not the board's decision I mean, I think anything we tell we put in policy as a superintendent's decision is a public come to the board person disagreed with it It would be someone coming to us say they disagreed with the super Opposed to coming to us to make a decision on say I hadn't really thought about it Well, I was just thinking how it read to me the first time was I want to transfer my child I'm going to the board. That's the way it reads We don't let anything like that happen straight down a process how you get Come to the board. I think you should eventually perhaps, but why wouldn't somebody else have solved this problem? Similar to the tuition waiver thing we're right now if somebody requests a tuition waiver for 60 days I think Brian can approve it, but for longer than that Brian actually brings it to the board if he is going to recommend that it should be So it might be that they make the request to the superintendent who will then forward requests that have merit to the board for approval Either way, that's a Board making the decision though because have shot me right for whatever that phrase we want to use is Someone's going to just feel that it has merit, right? I think what Brian was at least not even head at last time when we were discussing this was give give some more structure about what standards we're using for approving and student needs is maybe as strong as we want to be but You know, this is saying it's all good as long as we can Demonstrate all of these things But the capacity of the school is there the staffing will work The student has a need the transportation works and the class sizes work as long as all that happens It happens. I mean, that's why I would read this if I were a parent and I think in most cases we're going to be able to do a few a year if we do that and Is that is that what we want? And then they stay in that and then they stay in this in the school till they matriculate from that school Then we build a new Capacity around that new being able to dig that new student body size moving forward and then perhaps the next year There are more coming in now some may matriculate out so but I just don't know what our what our objective is in terms of preserving the the school and Roxbury also As a community school Well, is that should that be added in some way to the consideration? We feel strongly enough about that Ten people decided from Roxbury. They wanted to go to Union. There's a real problem Well, Bridget had a that would be the just lose this last time we talked about this idea of the extraordinary student needs somehow You know that we were going to make the decision based on student need We're going to make everything up. We're going to part the waters for a student who has a Cirque who has the need We're not going to we're not going to let anything stand in the way If they if there's an extraordinary student need but that's a pretty high bar And if we could figure that out because we are one district We're going to take care of students the very best we can No problem with a transfer if it really is an extraordinary need of some sort and we don't how do you define that sort of You know, how do you define that? Well, we as a system might recommend transfer for extraordinary needs Special ed might recommend it for something. I this policy is not about that right Oh That decision would be made in the IEP team and that would be something that this board would honor I'm confident. Yeah, um, and I I agree with Steve with all the points that he is making. I think the I I would be cautious and would would Suggest perhaps that the board think about at least in the beginning a higher standard um Simply because there is a commitment to preserving the the community at at the Roxbury village school and I I think um I think I'll I'll say this. I'm sure this will resonate with Tina as well as anybody else who's been in the classroom I think it's always easier to start off a little stronger than you need to be and back it off a little bit If you find out that that's that you're having too many requests that you can't honor As opposed to having it be a little looser and then try to you know, like to Steve's point. Oh, we have 10 now We have to make this stronger because we are we are struggling with the capacity issue That that's just something for for the board to consider because I know the of this board's commitment to the viability Of the Roxbury village school as part of this as part of this measure suggestions If before between the first sentence and the second sentence if we said something like In extraordinary in in some extraordinary instances the superintendent may Recommend that it is in a student's best interest to be served in a different school Than the board of school directors will consider that recommendation and decisions will consider but are not limited to It's good. It stays with the students. It doesn't come back to family. So that's good Did we already resolve that one? We didn't want it to be extraordinary family or student Right situation. I just said in extraordinary there may be extraordinary cases in which the superintendent May recommend that it's in the best interests of a child Or it may find that it's in the best interests of the child too You want to use that standard? I thought wasn't what you said the first time. I'm pretty sure I said, maybe I'm wrong. I think that the superintendent may recommend that a student Would be best served in a different school I definitely didn't say that. I said the students needs would be or it's in the student's best interest I probably stopped writing too fast The superintendent may be right. We're at extraordinary and best interests to me are two different things. Yeah, I'm well I'm saying it's extraordinary because it's very unusual. It would be A very unusual circumstance for the superintendent to find that a child has to be served in one You know in a specific elementary school. We want to convey that that's extraordinary Non-ordinary as a board we're saying We would do this transfer only in extraordinary circumstances If the superintendent recommended it to us on the basis of it being in the best interest of the student And we're not going to try to preview what all those circumstances might be It's better to leave it simple It's like if there are extraordinary circumstances then Potentially a child's best interest would be at this other school But you can't have the best interest separate from extraordinary circumstances Is that is that approach generally working with the folks? So then we'll bring back a draft that has things going to the superintendent first highlighting extraordinary circumstances staying focused on students not families I think from the decisions point on that's all good personally So would we like to keep it So right now if someone were to be granted a transfer for whatever the circumstance was Would we like to keep it that they stay in that school until they move on to middle school? Or do you think it makes sense to have them just for the remainder of that academic year? I think we wanted to stay put so that we That's why we stuck it that way this time I mean, I'd like to be idea that there might be Extenuating circumstances Because the extraordinary circumstance could be a short term they could change right right. We might have room for that Not any other input on this So we'll have another draft of this the next meeting and all label this as a third reading people okay with that? Okay, so you also have in front of you these draft policies that are Part of kind of a core governance policies for the board and that's the Board superintendent relationship the board member conflict of interest and the board member code of conduct I'll talk briefly about the board superintendent relationship and then ryan is really more responsible for the conflict of interest and code of conduct The first of all disregard the numbering I just have been numbering things one when I draft things because we don't have a packet of policies together yet for governance policies But so the board superintendent relationship is in is a stab at redrafting that Provision that we have in the MPS policies, which is called that and sets up the the division of labor between the board and what's delegated to the superintendent So it's a stab at redrafting it in a way that is Shorter is not raised in the negative the way the classic policy governance policies are drafted And otherwise tries to I guess tries to you know, just expand a little bit on the evaluation piece. So I'll start at the beginning So In terms of what's similar and what's different the um One the board would direct the district's operations only through the superintendent. That's pretty similar to The classic policy governance model The board acting only as an entity is certainly You know, we talked about that at the retreat. That's a very similar concept The board supervises the superintendent and not District staff again that is also, you know, basically the way the policy governance model works that Working through the superintendent The board role in hiring dismissal and discipline that's just an effort to Simplify what's in the current policy Then there's the section on because the board's most important role is to create policy that part is really still A work in progress for sure because we haven't really talked about how we're going to structure the policies in this district in the new district So Well, we can't really do that one until we decide what our model of governance is Well, I think we made a lot of progress towards that on the at the retreat, right? We did but you know, at some point you have to start Right, you know, it all sort of fits together as it's kind of a jigsaw puzzle pieces all fit together But right, we need to make more progress on what kinds of policies we envision having And I would flag under 1.4 You know this discretion piece this again, it's phrased differently it's because it's not using that negative phrasing from the policy governance model, but it's the same concept that the superintendent Gets to interpret the policies and adopt any reasonable interpretation of the policies and that's part of the delegation of authority And that to that language there under 1.4 near the end the board must respect and support decisions made by the superintendent That reflect a reasonable interpretation of an existing ends for operational policy Even if the board or its members may have made a different decision That's that's basically saying If if it's a reasonable way to interpret the policy it goes Do we define reasonable anywhere? That is not defined in the current policy. It is very good question. Yeah, it's the word reasonable defined anywhere Um, yeah I got confused the first time I read that one and I wonder if we I I don't have it Right now, but if we want to think of different wording for the very last bit of that section because it says Even if the board or its members may have made a different decision which When I the first time I read it I read the board has to respect the superintendent's decision Even if the board made a different decision But that's not what it's saying. It's saying even if the board In the shoes of the superintendent might have come to a different conclusion It's not that's exactly what it means. Right. And so I think we did a different Phrasing there because we don't want to say The superintendent can make a decision even if we already made a decision, which is not right Or that we've declared some decision and the superintendent can make an entirely different right right stuck on this one Because the language can make it seem almost an unimpeachable decision And I don't think we want that standard either Uh Or maybe we do maybe we must have that standard But my sense is that what we want is the superintendent to act without a bunch of second guessing and and negating of authority but Where is the standard at which point we say? It's the unreasonable. Is that the standard but it's no longer reasonable that that's I mean, but it's up for discussion Right like that. So this is starting from the policy governance model. And yeah, that would be the policy governance Yeah, and in fact, what you know An interesting point that you take from the policy governance model is that they say You have to really it really is any reasonable interpretation if you're thinking in the back of your mind We're just giving them discretion because they're going to do the right thing You're not doing it right because that's like you're thinking that there's some standard that you would apply to What would be reasonable that you're not putting in the policy? So it's it isn't about they get discretion because we trust them to do it, right? It's We've said we've set the policy We've said as much as we feel like we need to say And anything that falls under that policy. That's a reasonable version of it It's okay because we've given them discretion to do that But if somehow they didn't follow the policy then you would be that's a difference. That's a difference. How about And my reasonable, which carvers might mean like not illegal Not evidencing mental illness Not causing actual harm But anything above that bar is So a good example of how this plays out in realities where brian comes to us and says hey, I'm about to make a decision on something I just need a little guidance first Right, he goes off to make the decision We're really happy he came to us and asked us about that first and he probably is too because now he's got He's got his discretion, but he's also got like kind of nowhere not to go practical, but he doesn't have to do that and But sometimes if he doesn't do that, he feels he gets burned and brian is just a placeholder at this point because I'm not picking on him I'm saying any superintendent might feel this way So he does it because he's smart and he's and he's thinking about not stirring up a hornet's nest unnecessarily, but We're saying, you know, don't do that. You don't need to do that basically Or if you do that and we give you a guidance and you ignore it and it was still reasonable Or doesn't get to come back to it. We just had a discussion about this Because we had a discussion, but he can ignore it And we can't then spend the next meeting saying why do you ignore us? And so I'm just wondering like are we good with this? Is this really where we want to be? This is the time to have that conversation. This is the time to have that conversation. You know, we That doesn't have to be in the policy at all. It doesn't have to be framed that way It is good to define the idea that when we When we delegate authority under a policy, we've truly delegated it. We've truly let go of it And I think reasonable standard is that's the idea of that is we truly let go of it And we haven't held it just tight enough to be able to fight him fight him or her I would agree. However you choose to go with this. I would simply suggest that you're clear What is truly the superintendent's work and what is truly the board's work and however again strictly or For lack of a better word a 30 loosely you want to define that It should because you do to Steve's point you want the individual to have the freedom to say This is the policy the board gave me. This is the work that I can do within the policy I'm going to go and do this work Or conversely This is not you know, I do have to check in where I you know, whatever the actual parameter the board is comfortable with extending Be clear where that line is or where we say now we say could you please check in before you make that decision? You could be like no, thanks Right and that might be fine. We need to stop asking no effect. So, you know, but likewise I'd say The superintendent shouldn't come and ask us our opinion if if the superintendent Doesn't intend to listen to that Under this policy, I know but I'm just saying as a matter of practice You wouldn't want to have a discussion with the board who said We think you want to do this and then you go off and do that Why ask just do it? You could say as a purely advisory Discussion, I'm asking you all for your opinions. I would need some guidance on this But I retain the right to make this decision And I want to make that clear at the beginning that I'm going to make this decision And I may disagree with what you advise me, but I want you I would still like to hear your advice You're my counsel I mean, I might do that I might say look I get to make the final call here, but it doesn't mean I don't want some opinions I don't know It seems politically dangerous Just do it So I mean that's what that's the place we put someone in when we say this the only standard is that it be reasonable unless we want to say and in consultation with the board or after having heard the counsel of the board or you know, and then then all of a sudden You're starting to erode that that autonomy and authority Do we have Model policies for these or other districts policies or The model policy for this kind of thing. Yeah, is the is the carver model, which is what we have in the mps With all the negatives, that's the model The vsba provides No, the vsba doesn't Do this in the same way at all. It's it's very very different And we don't have to go so we don't have to go this route Or we or you know, we could but we could look at what they have for how to draw that line It's really not it's really different. It's really different. I mean, it's really not they don't have a policy that Outlines the categories quite the same way Because they're big into that delineation you would think they would have a description Make it Is there I I would read what they have the intent being that it's more policy by policy, maybe You looked at what their their model was Well, they don't have this pile I mean, this is not how they structure the policies this the concept that the carver model has The board superintendent relationship here the limitations and here's the governance the vsba doesn't set that Just a totally different framework I looked up orange southwest is a neighbor of ours and they're pretty close to policy governance The way that they've structured it at least according to what I could see quickly As long as the superintendent uses any reasonable interpretation of the board's ends and executive limitation policies Superintendent is authorized to establish all further procedures make all decisions take, you know, essentially they're they're as strict as it can go So if you don't you don't have to necessarily go that far, you know So you could take this and I could send this to to you and ryan if you're interested Um, you know, you could go I mean instead of I'm trying to think of how you could help here instead of just any reasonable I don't know how somebody could help me words. Well, maybe a reason it's really the reasonable interpretation of what so it's the policy and the board's The board's current temperament. I mean, that's really what it is It's both those things so you're taking a policy And then you're kind of taking a temperature reading of the board and saying I made a reasonable determination based on that the question is how do we codify a temperature taking process And I don't know that you can do that if we really hone in on the operational policies as part of this We're talking about I mean all of that work has to be done under operational policies In terms of what how much structure do we give and I think Bridget said it really well Is that you kind of have your peace you have your say when you build your policies? so You build your policies as thoroughly as you want to guide the superintendent and then you stop And if you feel like boy the superintendent really blew it on that one It's like well, let's write a new policy next time and not and you know, but until then We don't get to change it And so if we were to look at our operational policies as our hard work in this And leave the reasonable standards so that there's a There's at least at the end there's a line that everyone can follow which is look you delegated to me That's it I didn't I did something reasonable under what you delegated and you were you were you didn't say anything about that So, I mean think about this as budget creation time It's like it's chaos, right? If you don't and how do you create policies operational policies that guide your you don't But that's I mean you've been working on that see that we're hoping to bring before the board a budget policy That it's not like any policy that nps board had before right that would put more specifics into the expectation and the process So that's more that the board would be creating it creating those expectations Through a policy that says this is what we expect to see do we only do that during budget building? And do we not do that during other types of building? I think you're I don't I think that's entirely up to the board Right because it's a very specific operational policy. It's basically the budget policy is an operational policy I guess we could do that for adopting new policies We could have an operational policy on that and that walks us through more carefully or Any other policy we could add as much detail as we want and I think what we identified early on was that We at least have to do that for the budget policy because that one has been a train wreck And I think to your point I think you would then be able to quote unquote limit or expand your definition of reasonability Based on the policy that you write You know, so so that that could almost be the temperature taker there I mean you could you could craft a budget policy that says the superintendent shall not bring a budget that exceeds that You know, you could draw the line in the sand right there or shall consult right or or how to actually do it Yeah, and then the reasonability is well, it says you shall consult you did not consult You know, so it that becomes less black and white based on how you craft it I'm getting comfortable with the standard of reasonable Knowing that it leaves a lot of work in the operational policy creation sphere for us and what the SBA's Super board superintendent relationship policy said it says a bunch of stuff like will be nice to the superintendent and his office staff Which is a good idea But to this point it says that the board directs the superintendent through written policies that prescribe the results the board wants to achieve The results not the proper scribe results But still the you're I think you I'm I'm saying the same thing Steve that it's all about What we set out in the policy The extent of the policy is what creates Like the more detailed the policy is the more constrained the superintendent is More broad the policy is the more we're delegating Or you could even just say the The way that I could even see you continuing to use the word is you're limiting the scope of reasonability You know, so so there's either more interpretation Right or less the more we put in the we have a tighter we make the fence or the bigger we make the fence Is all about what we put in the policies Unless we want to have I mean if you say anything other than this reasonableness thing Then you're creating a new You're creating something outside of That you if you didn't say that you would almost be creating A weird like gotcha category where you're like the superintendent has to carry out all the policies Except we can at any time say that that's not what we want. That's it. That's the universal claw that So we don't I don't think we want that in the current MPS policy also in this board superintendent relationship policy, which is here in 1.5 is the monitoring piece Which we did not really get to at the retreat in terms of talking about whether that's something we see as part of the In the friends at the bottom where you've got a question. I substitute all mandated policies. You've got everything else but Right, but you would say it's there should be monitoring on all the policies, which is Well, you've got ends compliance with ends operational and all mandated in other words all mandated policies plus Actually, those are ones that must be I don't know what monitoring is It's an interesting point because that's not under the MPS board. They I don't The things that we think of as the mandated policies weren't really in the work plan No monitoring because no, we were only monitoring the ends and limitations. Yeah But I would think the mandate because the end of the goals And the limitations were just like Compliance Yeah, some of them touched on Right, right. There was certainly And you wouldn't be able to do all of them once I think it would be a good idea to set up a schedule So the thought that I have which I put in here For discussion was if if folks want some plan of monitoring to continue as part of the way the board works That instead of putting the monitoring schedule in a policy We should commit to that being part of the work plan that we adopt every every year We have an annual schedule. There's a point at which we're supposed to start the annual schedule Which in theory could be May, you know for the next year And at that point we would say like this is the end policy we're going to do this year Or we're going to do all the ends this year, you know, we're only going to do one or we're you know Whatever it is, we're going to do it The previous calendar included all the ends and all the limitations Yeah, and my sense is that we couldn't do all that We couldn't do like it was really hard to do it all the big problem with the ends was that before we did an end report We were trying to define the end indicators and that was what took a huge amount of time because we didn't have indicators We're doing that The limitations were pretty straightforward the review the mandated policy thing is just a little weird because You know, so brian has to report on are we in compliance with the alcohol and drug free workplace? Does it tell us to do anything, you know, or like the trans are we in compliance with the transportation policy? You know what would that report look like it says that the board must systematically monitor the superintendent's compliance with That doesn't that doesn't necessarily say to me that He has to give a report on every single one of them all the time But it allows you to Do some I mean some of the things that occurred to me, but I don't know how we would operationalize this but One one is are they being updated? Yes, like that's something right Are things like the right having the right person to be the reporting like, you know, we've updated who the report person is based on turnover You know some of the other things like that that change in the policy is like it's so Do we know we're do we know we're keeping them up to date on how that's primarily the superintendent's job How could how would the board sort of In place it's the role of making sure that's happening Yeah, the vsba gives us all at the end of each legislative session They tell us all the changes that will affect our policies And we should put it on our calendar to review that and then schedule Updates That should come out in, you know, july or august probably every year So all that likewise, I don't think needs to be in the policy It's just part of our procedure of how we would do that and I and I like And then there's also this is a very much that a rough stab Tina also looked at this Something about the evaluation process, which is very bare bones in the current nps policy Um, this This language is really a departure from the carver model because you know in my car Attendance performances the performance of the district So there you go go away and evaluate that This was an effort to come up with something more to Put some you know details and framework around Yeah Around the evaluation. I think the effort here was I love this. I think that the effort here is just you look at the performance of the district but you also look at the process of managing sort of the The work of the managing process, which is separate from the performance outcome Um, and they both have to be very good You know down a high level And so I think that this kind of Points that idea and you've actually just created a detailed laundry list on this too Which is certainly more clear than the category of Shall be evaluated on management process, which is kind of to me Too too vague to be meaningful And it's in a positive manner and preference to all those negative things I thought told us I think it looks pretty good The first sense is the one that comes out of carver and it's Is it clear to folks what that means because it's it's this in the in the carver model. It's a big sense, right? right, it's like It's like a a mathematical equation Which is the two are equal and there is no other fact. There is no other factors variables in And this adds new variables we want Actually hadn't thought about this but before the retreat we're doing some of the carver stuff You know carver would really emphasize that boards evaluations of themselves is really important also It is we don't have a different policy. I think That's What's now in like four four point four four point four of the board But that whole section four is the board governance process governance. So that's what I have a problem too. Yeah We should do that We have done but yeah not recently So it doesn't refresh my mind so just It's not there Can I ask Kind of a semantics question one point one the opening sentence Only decisions of the full board acting as an entity are binding on the superintendent Do we need to include full? Yes, should it actually Does that make sense or would it just be the board? Because Are you concerned that full suggested has to be everyone? Oh, no, I'm not sure a decision on the board Oh, so that's not unanimous. Well, the board acting as an entity Right, so maybe we could take Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was an issue or it might be a concern, but It didn't make it seem like it has to be unanimous. Yeah, it didn't catch my attention whenever I write right at the first time Yeah, because if you take even if you take out full the next sentence makes it clear, right? Right what you're talking about You could take out full only decisions of the board acting as an entity This by the way that second paragraph is a It's new it is new. I think there were pieces of it in the carver policy pieces of it in the bsba policy and I may have even found them somewhere else, but the idea is to Actually, the bsba policy had options on this issue It's a it's a really this is an interesting question of how much you want to allow board members to interact with Staff the superintendent and with staff members. There's actually one version of the bsba policy that says something like You know the board staff Relationships or board staff communication is Encouraged, but you but the board doesn't tell them what to do And that's kind of confusing We're out there talking to them about what they do, but not telling me that's dicey So we we had some discussion about that on the policy committee. So this was a proposal to basically, you know try to funnel Request for information through the superintendent But that's a question. I mean you could say that board members could ask for things from staff members to And I think actually it didn't make its way into the policy, but steve and rina I talked about whether We might want to say something like if a board member is directing a request to the superintendent They have to copy the board chair So that's kind of like a check like for the board chair like knows what's going on A good idea permission, but yeah, do y'all feel like this is a reasonable approach here The idea here is that you're not prohibited from asking for something But the superintendent needs to feel very comfortable very comfortable saying I give you that but that's going to take more time than you imagine And I'm not going to be able to produce that at least not in a reasonable amount of time And so if you really want that ask the rest of the board to to make the motion Otherwise it's very clear it says you can ask but Be prepared that he's going to say no And it gives superintendent a little guidance to feel comfortable saying no or yes depending on the standard It says it's okay to ask, but he doesn't have to Deliver the word that the standard is significant, right? Yeah Which is fine Just me that's basically anything by the way It's very hard to get away from it It takes any effort at all to say no However, it does indicate that then The full board could be asked and if the full board says yes, then the superintendent has to do it What I like is that the chair is not the second step here Because it doesn't put the chair in the in the place of acting on behalf of the board Goes back to the letter. This is what we talked about at the time So I come back to oh, it's definitely going to come back. I mean my vision on this if others agree is that we're gonna Have to have like a packet of them before we act on it. Yeah But like it's just really important that we kind of understand that this is all in the right direction We have to be sorry try to keep a little in more as I think we've seen already one sort of effects the mix Exactly So the conflict of interest and code of conduct are pretty related. I don't know if you want to talk about them together Brian, no, we could I mean I could give a little bit of the background But yeah as we're talking about these do keep this in mind So the the board members conflict of interest is a mandatory policy required policy set forth by bsba Um, both of our districts have had that essentially adopted kind of status quo in the past And then the board member of conduct Roxbury had Some code of conduct stuff set off by itself The mob kill your policies had a lot a lot of the content in The code of conduct was included in most of the bsr the board superintendent relations of policies in the mob kill your district Um, so it's not it's also in 4.5. Yeah the governance Yep, so it's not new new but it is kind of all combined by itself a new policy Um, and we did want to have a general discussion whether or not we felt that it made sense to keep these two things as separate policies Or potentially combine them into one But the so again your conflict of interest policy pretty straightforward Nothing too crazy there The code of conduct policy kind of came through fruition One of our first policy committee meetings the how they came up, you know, does this board need bylaws? You know mob kill your head at city charter. There was this there was that doesn't make sense do we need to essentially kind of Reaffirmed some of the things that were decided upon in the articles of agreement when we merged And so I reached out to vsba to get some guidance there and like no the articles in agreement are good to go As they are, you know, you have your board terms You have the number of people how the votes etc. All taken care of You can consider the articles agreement your bylaws for the board But you should really have how the board is going to operate you really need to code a conduct so A lot of the stuff again has been combined from the existing roxbury and mob kill your information But then a lot of the stuff also came from vsba in terms of their best practices So like the what we included is the appendix the declaration of commitment That is looking verbatim from vsba's essential workbook That literally came out of their their page. So this is straight from vsba Again, there's There's a lot it feels like it's kind of nitpicky But we figured again General discussion tonight kind of get some guidance on how detailed we want to get with this If it's too over the top, if it's good, it gives us a structure, etc. So This is what we have to present and discuss Peter Well, first, as always, thank you for all the work. So anything I say Number two there at the top We agree to avoid words and actions that create a negative impression on an individual the border of the district so I'm fine with the part about the individual but It seems a little constricting like for example Am I not supposed to say this meeting that I'm very disappointed as an example that the playground is very behind schedule And parents are upset and I'm upset too. I mean that would be creating a negative impression of the on the border district Um, I think that's just saying that a project is behind schedule. You're not saying like This board is mismanaging the project. Okay Well Okay, so let me just say for the cameras and everyone else. I this is a hypothetical Let me pick something else. I am very disappointed that the board's management of the project to redo the baseball field Is well behind and I think we're dropping the ball It's like to me that is not Necessarily that is that's critical and meant to inspire us to take action But I am creating a negative impression of the board and the district on purpose is I believe we need to do better So I I mean, I think this is more about like going, you know talking to your friends at the basketball game and being like I just feel like the board is terrible. Okay, but So but you could see how it It does say in all situations the board does There's a little to me that this infringes in a few areas on sort of The speech rights of an elected official and I think I think we need to comb through with that a little bit I don't I think there's most of this is fine and good But the areas where it feels the most nitpicky are the areas where it's It's asking us to all be A team, you know, I'll be like a one voice and I think we have to be careful about that when we're elected And we talked about this at the retreat a little bit and it's you know, I think most of this is probably just fine, but There's a few of those spots that I think we have to be careful The current MPS policy says that individual members will make every reasonable effort to promote to protect the integrity and promote the positive image of the district and one another And never embarrass each other or the district Just I mean just say we're already Far Well, I think this the next sentence it says while we encourage debate and differing points of view We will do with care and respect That's fine and say something about the baseball field. That's fine. He's just not going to yell at me and abhorred me I actually don't object to a board member saying what you just said I worry about being told that I shouldn't be creating a negative impression of the border And you think someone who is let's just say hypothetically I was the only conservative member of this board and everyone else is super out there You all could use that against me because I'm creating negative impression of the board because I don't believe you all should be spending all this Money I'm doing something like I just worry that I mean it's probably not going to happen But we are like no proving it. So I kept to bring up my two other things and we can move on or we can Beating this day horse so That's all I have to say on that one or we could word spin fit or Did you have other points you wanted to well down the list? I don't know. I don't want to skip past anyone else Same other things before anyone else want to weigh in on the first couple to others I heard Steve say he shares that concern Yeah, I actually hadn't even picked up on that one, but I think that's true. I was more down in section b And then also I've laid along. I have a second. I've second be comments, too Actually, I'm thinking if even you eliminated that whole sentence that you don't like and just said while we encourage debate and differing kinds of view We will do with care and respect I mean I I'd like what michelle said though michelle what michelle said is what we should be doing We should not be disparaging the district and the board Right, we should not be doing that thing. No, this board is terrible. We're such a bunch of losers Like that's not content or like at it. Similarly. I'm just going to keep using this You know talking with other parents and like, oh, yeah, the district has a real problem with you know Making as as parents. We are inclined to speak irresponsibly in social situations But when we're on the board, we have to remember that Actually, we kind of represent the district and we should speak supportively and not irresponsibly It I could not agree more But I don't know how you express that in a way that So if what if we came up with language that was Less mandatory and more aspirational. Yeah, that's that was more about, you know, board members aspire to Should be a positive role model So that we know what we're trying to do, but we're not necessarily ordering So, but like as a smaller example Again, and I just to home to put a little finer point because michelle's right like I'm saying next to brine Compaired they were speaking out board stakes like that is inappropriate. I think we all Get that but like for example, let's say with the example again that you all have gotten super super liberal And I've gotten conservative and I went to a meeting of compare to our share of my politics I'm very conservative and I would go, you know, this board is out of line with umpelia And I want us to spend less money. I think the board is way out of line with voters Like that's very negative But that is to me a reason like steve was saying that's kind of a A free speech like I want to get people to run for office and change the composition and do all that stuff Like that should not be seen. That's not out of bounds to me. Maybe this is one of those Felix frankfurter or pornography things like, you know, pornography when you see it But maybe you can try to put words into it because there has to be a free speech element Where we're trying to be constructive and do what I think is right for the board without disparaging its members Okay, so in section b To be efficient and effective long board means must be avoided Yeah, you know she'll slip that one. I mean no one likes long meetings, but some people less than others So I think what this is getting at I mean, this this is we did not make this up. This is the bsba I think some of this came from Montpeliers I think what this is getting at is You should be keeping that in mind as a board member like it's not that sometimes the board might have so much work to do That the meeting is four hours, but as you're participating in the board meeting You shouldn't just be But for when you read this wording Someone could say well, there's 74 people in the audience. We're not gonna hear because right there We signed the protocol a long meeting is avoided. Y'all don't happen And that's all I'm saying like we're not gonna do like a filibuster thing here Yeah, we're not gonna have like yeah, but there has to be more clarity that The reason to avoid a long meeting is one person going on and on and on and on right and I think bridge's point to help Move this conversation along is that this could be written in sort of an aspirational, you know, I think I think I think bridge it's we want to respect board members time and Use the time effectively Instead of Even with this with this Section b1 instead of the word will aspire to or will try, you know, I mean, I think I agree that it's hard You know, I look at the one that says to not interrupt each other We try I mean Also, it's not like there's any punishment Well, I will say on the on the third to thank you, Brian, but on the third page, I am asked to sign something Yeah It just says you're doing everything in your power to be productive and it doesn't say and if I don't I understand But I just worry that I hear you So also on number three the board will consider research best practice public input and financial impacts in their decision making and I worry is this like an exclusive list for example Becky is an expert in hr, right? She has a lot of experience In human resource issues. Now, that's not listed here like personal experience isn't listed In or interest of the students are not listed, right? And so So there's a lot of things not listed and I know we can't list everything Right, so it kind of concerns me to cut it off it these top five And again, I know what everyone's getting at. We're trying to have some basis We can't just say well today. I feel like we should move left and tomorrow we go right like that's not In several of the other policies we put in friends not limited to Well, this practice would incorporate someone's individual experience Okay, that wasn't clear. So thank you. Well, that's very appreciative Okay So I only have one more, but I'd like to note that I really don't comment on that many policies. So I feel like I'm getting a lot of this This is great. I do too. And so I just don't I'm not going to go on like this for the next policy Well, I don't want to The appendix that in theory was supposed to sign I Maybe the hairs. Yeah, what does that even mean? I know what people are getting at like people feel like it's The amount of money like let's say we wanted to spend 30 grand a student, but all of our kids went to Ivy League That's a great return As a hyper like but that is not what we want to judge anything by Can I like back up? I'm not sure I'm not sure. I'm not sure about having a language in either. So I totally heard you're saying but This again, this this is the verbatim thing right from the declaration. Yes Do folks generally want to go down this road? I mean to me that the first question is we have we never did this in mps I don't know if you did this in Roxbury. Oh good. I was trying to think did I ever sign something It was when I saw when I joined the board it was signed. I have no idea if The passport members Kate came on after me. I don't know if it was brought forward again after that I'm not sure how far it continued or when it kind of came into the reaction on the Roxbury board I was going to say somebody asked you to sign this when you joined this board Like I said, there's never been a day when somebody came up to the meeting and said hey ryan. Do you remember? Here's your declaration of commitment that It's been buried somewhere in a file for a long time, but I can see the pros and cons and I think we go down there. We have to have a pretty robust discussion about what's in it Right, but I guess I kind of start and the people think we should do this Then we should agree on some principles that we have members sign What's the enforceability of it and why are we signing it? Right? Yeah, I don't think it's impossible at all Does anyone think it's impossible? You can't get kicked off the board If someone's elected and says I don't think I want to sign it Yeah, that's my question And how do how does the board member get I mean, what's the sanction? Is there Can a board member be sanctioned in some way Can they be removed from the board? I think the only thing that comes with further process is a conflict of interest Which is in the conflict of interest policy and that that is part of what's in here you would be you're signing off to agree I mean, what if Becky punches you? Yeah, there should be some kind of sequence. What if she just gets so mad that she punches you like I mean, obviously there are civil There is no we do not have the ability to remove people from the board. That's what I'm asking. We don't there's no mechanism for any kind of consequence So I think so We're just outlining what we would all like Why should we have the right to Not remove someone from the board. Well, it's the second You know, I'm not saying that I'm not suggesting we should have that right. I'm asking whether there is a mechanism to do it We're not debating whether it's Right, you can get rid of one of your members You can get rid of one Actually So we could have one but we don't I I don't feel the need to sign anything I think when you join the board You read through them you read through all these policies and in some and at some level you agree to this member code of conduct I'm not you're like you're guiding like Maybe people have to sign this when they turn in their petition And if they're not willing to sign it Yeah, right second the content I have a comment. There is a reason to If there's an unavoidable conflict of interest say if your husband Is an architect bidding on a project here. You need to be able to publicly In some form or manner be able to say so and recuse yourself from the decision making do we have a process for that? Isn't that in here in the I think we should sign to it. I think it should be identified in some way And signed To it So you're saying there and be a signing thing for conflict of interest, but not necessarily but not code of conduct But for conflict of interest Are you saying that you think members should sign the code of the conflict of interest policy or the conflict of interest should be Or the public But that they should sign the policy or that when they have a conflict they should sign something in in And maybe this is weird to healthcare, but any place I've worked in the last 30 years I've had to sign a conflict of interest document That in the last decade or so I've had to reveal my husband was an attorney who occasionally took cases Where you sign something disclosing Disclosing a conflict of interest But also that you would disclose. Yes, and that you make a point to disclose Yeah, I've had to sign one of my new job And so I you know, I think if we restructure this declaration or make it a conflict of interest Declaration that would Be sufficient, but if I was a member of the public, I would want to know if a member of the boards Had a financial interest in the outcome of a decision of the board So it's all true. The question is enforceability. So if the board has the authority to enforce something Then so when you when you are when you are elected onto the board We have a whole packet of policies that you can ignore every single one of those policies because you've been elected But you will become but the board will simply Enforce it themselves. The question is what is unenforceable by the board versus enforceable and that that's my concern. So The board can't enforce that you will Not play to the audience during a debate And they could try I guess They can can they enforce conflicts of interest? How does the board enforce if they just we see this a lot where where A elected member will not disclose a conflict. Everyone knows they have a conflict. They don't do it Everyone's like, yeah, but they have a conflict and they're still voting. Yes And how do we do we as a board of? We have a mechanism for kicking that person out of the vote Well, we have a mechanism for having a hearing to decide Whether there is a conflict of interest And if we find that there is Then we would say that we find Yeah, well, I agree to that and I think that's fine. And that's that's sexually enforceable. I don't know. I don't know Well, I think that's in here Even if I didn't sign it by the fact that it's policy It says that if there's a conflict of interest I should be disclosing it also Some of the some of the language in the that is in the declaration of commitment Is maybe better than some of the language that's on the previous page And the folks on the policy committee, I would just say before we jettison appendix a because of the offensive signature line We should review it because some of these things might Well, so just rework it. No, there's definitely there's definitely overlap between the two. Yeah. Yeah That's what we've thought was a little bit unclear keeping them separate documents or keeping them in appendix So Yeah, if we want to scrap and I guess as that the consensus of the board the direction of the board on this is We'll scrap the the declaration Use some of the better language and then come up with just a general code of conduct I think that'd be helpful I do think I mean I We haven't talked about them too much. I just want to say that I think both b1 The standards of how we engage at meetings and I'm going to say see commitment to the work of the schooling You know that these things are important But they should be in the policy that we should be We might not be able to enforce them, but we should be monitoring and working on improving for example the degree to which we Have equal participation in a meeting and avoiding people dominating A discussion and avoiding playing to the audience and that we should be openly. I think I candidly discussing What it means to to be committed to the work of the board? What it means to be a participant in committee work and to come to meetings and to do work outside of meetings because that's That's kind of where the rubber hits the road Bridget can I have an awful last meeting further? Um Yes with the chair's permission I I I'm going to go back a Step because I actually think it might be useful to sign it Not good this I would take out the sentence about agreeing to abide by it But to sign it indicating that you've read it And that it might be worth Um for each new member who comes on The chair should pull this out of the binder and be like You really I really want you to Read this and and show that you've read it But I I might say that's part of procedure. We've discussed a long time ago what we do for new board members Yep, who knows what we do so that might be part of the The procedure for new members is to say for every new board member We're going to for sure take out these three policies whatever they might be and say We'd like you for sure to read these these are our expectations read it sign it return it to the superintendent So that we know that we so that when I later say You know tina you've got to stop doing x and you say well, I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do that right I think I had some more thought for the discussion too. Um, just my last one is the first bullet Just seems a little hokey recognized that a board member's responsibility is to see that schools are well run, but not to run them It's not really something I'm really really We've talked about all this other stuff, but that's just There's the in the appendix say the first thing about it's the thing peter objected to Um, which I don't think I object to but I want to be clear Basically this goes back again to things we learned at bsba about there's really two things we do One is we take care of the students the other is we take care of the taxpayer basically or the arm And the idea here is that we're going to always do what's in the vest into the students but always balance it with Getting a really good return on on the dollar we spend so You know that's not really codified anywhere in terms of the actual mission of a school board member I don't think like I don't think that says that in state statute about why we're being elected and if that really is our Our mission statement for each of us individually our role Um, you know, I don't know but that's what this is effectively saying and that's what we hear over and over again And I think that's what this is attempting to say here is don't forget that this is your role as a board member Is to do this thing which is look out for students and look out for taxpayers So that's it. That's all I just don't know how to word it any better all some things It's the term would return on investment that bothers me. I don't it's a financed term. It is ROI is It's it's it's not the right wording. I mean, yes, I believe we should be looking at I believe we should be counting paper clips. I do like I want to know where every dollar is spent And we are accountable for that but to think of like these kids as a return on investment. So like Do we measure them when they're 24? Really like you may have a class of kids who are just not that great not that many go to college But all of them go to VOTAC or become you know, and like that's a great return on investment Which taxpayers think that's good. Which don't like who we talk about like just a Have you heard from me use like it's a start to commit to but yes We should be conscious of all our decisions how we're spending taxpayers money We need to do that But that's ROI is not the term that i'm comfortable But I I agree with steve, right? Those are the people we are serving not just students, right? We're serving all taxpayers Actually, I would even argue we're not even serving all taxpayers. We're serving all residents of Montpellier There are people who don't pay taxes, but still It's very true Was that all the discussion at all helpful to the policy committee? I thought it was fascinating We could expect a good long conversation on this one Okay, that's about what we're doing. Um, I I would also just add that Toke should feel free to you know, follow up after the meeting Edits or anything like that I've used up all my words for the evening Don't say that you don't have any of the budget execution part Okay, so We also had on for second reading substitute teachers fiscal management budget execution Volunteers and work study students those were really only on for second reading and not adoption because of the glitch around public posting So I have a comment about the substitute teachers. All right, and that is it says nowhere in here that you have to have a background check And you did say that for volunteers and I think you should say that for substitute teachers Isn't that a law? Well, there's no I mean it does say so in volunteers it says you have to Anybody who's in a teaching position has to have the back I mean, there's anyone who is has unfettered access to children at any time must can only do so with a background check under which policy Right, but I'm saying we don't state it under state law. It's state law We don't have to because if you are substitute teacher It is state law That if I put you in front of a classroom you have a background check And the only reason it it says specifically for volunteers is because you are not a teacher And so I have to do that for you. I'm not hiring you and so I'm not paying you But if I'm going to give you unfettered access to children You do have to have a background check if I have a volunteer who's in the presence of an appropriately background checked Educator or member of the nps. It was an nps employee. I don't need a background check for that individual So it's state law, which is why it's not stated for substitute teachers Okay, as long as we do it. Oh, that is If you recall and I'm sure you do Last year's act 166 debacle Was certainly around the fact that I was one of and my colleague Laurie gossens who's in the room was another Who said uh, uh, I'm not I don't care that I'm holding up your money. I don't care that I'm And I did but the principal was I don't care that you're not getting your money This person right here I don't know that he has a background check and I'm not going to release public dollars For a public school student to go into a private pre-k if I don't know that every single person in that private pre-k Has been appropriately background and not only it relates that it was the same kind of thing Like all of a sudden because when this became law Background checks did not go through with any Uh, regularity and that I remember that first year a backup of background checks And you had all these teachers already hired and nobody had So yes, that is Done and done Quick question process question. Um, when we hire teachers, of course, we do the background checks. Are they rechecked? Periodical so we don't know. No, it's what lawyers in We do not as the employer Right Realize it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. That's okay. So they have to every time. Thank you for reminding me about Good question Anything else on those four policies? So can I be clear that since um, and for those who are Following along tv if you go to our website Mpsbt.org and go under Montpelier board of school commissioners and go to m r sd policies There is a web page called policies in process And all of the policies that we are working on are there um in their entirety and can be reviewed and Comment to the public and if anyone is having trouble accessing them for any reason They should certainly feel welcome to contact me in the office at 223 97 96 or brian at mpsbt.org And i'll be happy to get you a copy of any policy electronically hard copy or otherwise That's my word for adoption. Yeah, thank you 5 2 5 2 Good. I'm not okay with that So that'll be substitute teachers Fiscal management budget execution volunteers and work-study students. Yep Assize policy The will got changed to show Sure, do we do do we do that wrong? I thought that was in my notes Um, it was in the notes to change Shall to will Sorry, I thought that that was across the board. Sure. Well, no, no, it's across the board changing shells to will Okay, those to show got it So could I ask for clarification for this? But I tried to figure that out from the notes, but couldn't so you weren't I wasn't at the meet so the I'm just curious for a brief explanation of the multigrade k4 elementary. I remember why It was a roxbury thought about that. So where are we now on that and it's by classroom, but I like Right. So we lauren I spent a lot of time on this and tried to run as many numbers to reasonably account for how best to support the diverse Numbers that we could potentially see in roxbury including a class I'm including the grade cohort that could have as few as zero. Yeah, and as many as saying what were we thinking lori like 10 or 12, right? Um, and so we decided instead of doing it by grade We would do it by classroom And with the caveat that no teacher will have more than two consecutive grade levels per classroom So this top portion here is simply for The one right here is simply for the roxbury village school So in the k4 school The minimum average number of students per classroom Would be eight Optimum we're standing is 10 to 12 and in order to account for every mathematical possibility We're doing less than or equal to 40, which we feel Right Satisfying any permutation and the way that we will do this to satisfy both Reasonability and educational outcomes is that no teacher will have more than two consecutive grade levels per classroom So for example, you could not one two three, okay? And that was really put in to replace this Because we didn't feel we felt that in order to In order to support the most A good policy with a lot of viability for a smaller school Rather than doing it by grade because lori and i just could never get around how to do it by grade With the numbers as as we were projecting them like it would not it just simply wouldn't work And i think it was lori who said what if we just do like like physical classroom And that'll actually make all of these numbers work. So that was the rationale behind Making that change on the back page third paragraph I would like you to consider some A Phrase at the beginning of the last sentence that starts the principal has See where i am. Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay Would you consider The following phrase after considering online platforms and dual enrollment options? The principal has a discretion to approve these course That's a pretty big change there after considering online And so here are my two points And I I did talk to you That um All you're saying is considering After considering online platforms and dual enrollment options in other words, i'm just saying um, actually I will say that we are doing Great at this the The percentages are up I think we are doing this now And so I actually did stop in to talk to mike about this because I didn't Want to say anything indicated. I didn't think he was doing a great job. I think he is I just think that it's um The reason I thought about it was we haven't always done a good job at this And I thought maybe writing it down would help us I don't mind considering anything. I just don't know what are the things we should be considering You know, is this this is a this is a narrow list based on I think a A value or a priority of that we should we should be Doing more of this I'm not opposed to doing more of that, but I'm concerned that are we just singling these things out And I haven't had a second to think about what other things should we be considering So that we're not um Making a special point on maybe one or two things out of five or seven we should be considering I don't know but I do think this is a value statement that we throw in to a document that's Maybe has a few value statements in it But you know, I but I'm just saying that I think the idea is to give it some some numbers here and I don't know. I mean, I'm not opposed to it, but I'm opposed to it until I have a chance to think about what other Things we would want to consider too. I'm also not opposed to doing a broader After consideration of meaning Consider something before doing this so One concern I have in terms of the time We don't have to adopt it next the next time but is um, this is the third reading and And before we you know, there was a process of getting input from all the principles on the language That we brought to the first reading and I'm reluctant to change it and adopt it Without having a chance to go back to the principle involved and get some input on the changes because You know, that's that was part of the development of the policy and that's the person I think who would have the most uh input from the From the leadership team side So I think if we were going to make a change on that I would want to at least do that step first What the others I think that's appropriate So are we directing the principle to do something with that statement? Yeah, if we had this other language We are I think and that's kind of stepping outside of our realm in terms of how we're supposed to be interacting with Staff we grant it's in policy, but still I'm gonna guess you could say our policy is limit other staff members also besides just a superintendent, but It feels a little bit more heavy-handed in terms of telling somebody else besides the superintendent What to do or how to do it Would it be helpful to have something broader to the extent that the language could be proposed to mike after considering other alternatives I mean I get the spirit where you're trying to go with this You know and so that it's not because this also goes to kind of steve's point before about I guess and michelle's too about the reasonability of the Interpretation of the policy. So if you're looking to be less heavy-handed perhaps You know mike might consider Whatever I just said after thoughtful consideration of alternatives So therefore it's not just a hey, I've got discretion to go below the minimum The bar is that You know and however it's reasonably construed I considered These alternatives and For this reason and this reason this reason it didn't necessarily fit in the mission or values or how about that because then it Kind of gets to what you're thinking about, but it also doesn't say you have to think of these two things as well Would that be That said your timeline is is a reasonable question too. So I'm just And ryan usually in policy, we don't even refer to the principal Because we refer to the superintendent We could just delete that whole senate I think we've deleted the sentence that would really change the meaning of the policy We're trying to specifically say you can't bring the minimum average below Well, I thought the sentence before that said that but Yeah, I'm not sure the second sentence is clear enough to to Say it's okay if the minimum average drops below. Okay in that content area Any other comments on this? So we can get a reaction about That proposed language that I have two proposals there after considering online platforms a new enrollment or after considering other alternatives I mean, I prefer the more general language, I think but We'll get some reaction and Put this one back on for next week Yeah, we uh, yes, because it's not going to be enough to show That's absolutely Ryan out of a procedural do you want to try to get the in-district elementary school transfer policy on for the 11th Or do you want to wait for the second and I'm okay either way I think I could really come up with the draft for just you do you guys think you'll have a chance to Go through some iterations in the next week So you'll need it by Friday, which is two days from now Yeah, you want to shoot why don't we shoot for the second? Let's let's keep it really more Thanks everybody Thank you for all your hard work Thank you for having such a tidy meeting All right, no motion to adjourn