 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart Van Der Zee and today I am joined by Emra Sapahi from Bosphorus Symbols Emra Welcome to the show. Hey, how are you? I'm good man. Thanks so much. We've we've it's just kind of funny. We've had some back and forths. I looked at our email Originally and the last email before we reset this up was hey Emra. I need to reschedule I have surgery on my ankle tomorrow So I had a lot of people who listen know that I tore my Achilles tendon We were supposed to have the interview the day that I had surgery. So I appreciate your Your patience but you're very much welcome. Yeah, we are here though. So we're here today It's it's 8 a.m. Where I live and it's 4 p.m. In Turkey. So we're we're pretty far apart, but Yeah, so on that note I would love to hear the origins of Bosphorus Symbols and let me say this now so I don't forget I want to thank Raphael Zimmerman and Alejandro Perez for Suggesting this topic and I'm pretty sure a couple other people did too a way back that I hadn't written down yet So thank you to those guys Okay, Emra, why don't you start and tell us the origins of Bosphorus Symbols? Okay, the origin of Bosphorus Symbols is an organic Connection directly with the Symbol history started in Turkey back in 1800s As you already know might know that The symbols were invented in this land because Otto and Empire used the music in army for the first time in the history and that was a mobile Orchestra with percussion instruments and there were symbols in it so because of this demand people were trying to make the best symbols or best sound and then Someone came up with a new alloy of bronze and Actually, he accidentally invented it while he was trying to Make gold Yeah You know that story. I've heard a bit. I mean, I guess I'm it kind of goes to the the other big company Yeah, that's a part of their story and yeah, so yeah They were trying to find the formula of gold because they were not aware that that was an element so they had this New bronze alloy and they found out that it has a very nice vibration to sound and Then they started to make symbols out of and those symbols became very successful and they were we The family whole family adopted by the Sultan in Istanbul to produce the best symbols for his army So they moved to Istanbul to the palace and then they started their independent company in 1800s and they did it for over a century in Istanbul and then Ottoman Empire was ended and So the business was almost done Luckily this Symbols became a part of symphonic orchestras in European music so there was the feel some still some little demand and The original family moved from Istanbul to United States But they left some people behind here and those people who kept the original factory open until 1979 Yeah, and in the in 1979 They closed the original factory in Istanbul and they fired the workers and Those workers got reunited and started Istanbul symbols company in 1980 My bosses which are three equal partners was three little kids in the neighborhood like ten eleven years old and It's kind of a tradition that Getting kids into a summer job While the schools were closed So so they are One of them was started to work for this new symbol company and He brought two other friends and they are first duty in the workshop to clean around and Carry the stuff between some little cements that kind of stuff But yeah, also they started to be trained as a symbol and they started to be Making Learn how to make symbols from them and that's Take 16 years they work for the company for sixteen years straight. They became master symbol Smith and original symbol Smith who was coming from the old Factory was retired or passed away and Then this new symbol company example started to become famous and then They had new workers more people inside and These three guys who were the first Hired papils of the original masters Decided to move on to their own company in 1996 So the idea was Keeping the tradition alive because Every symbol company to the same path before was for symbols when they had More demand than their capacity They start to use shortcuts to make more symbols with less labor It's machinery of different things So but the product was not the same product anymore so My bosses pre-partners of boss were symbols was Aware of that and they were warning their bosses You're not making the same symbol say But and nobody listened to them. They were just workers So that's the how the idea started phosphorus Let's do a company with the tradition with the way that our masters told us so they They were just three young guys Without any money almost So they found the music shop downtown in Istanbul Who wanted to invest in a new symbol company? So they became partners with that music shop and That guy invested money to buy the necessary Hardware and tools and everything and In 1996 Somewhere around February they produced the first symbol here. Wow and You know what? The guy who invested into this company He was not even believing these guys is that until I see you have the first symbol in your hand with a good sound I just try To take an adventure because the money that he invested was not a serious money for himself So now that's nice for him. He just wanted to take the risk He wouldn't lose anything that what he said But when the first symbol came out from master symbols when the shop owner came to the workshop and Tried it. He cried. Oh Wow. Yeah, he cried. He said, oh my god This is the symbol that my father used to buy for him that all hungry hmm He cried because he he was not able to find that symbol anymore That's pretty awesome so They started to produce symbols that shop owner found a guy in the United States who wanted to Distribute the symbols in the United States and then there was a guy for artist relations And who brought Jeff Hamilton to boss for symbols because Jeff was very angry with his sponsor back in that time endorsing single company because he finally found out these symbols was not really Yeah, that's this that's the story that I listened from Jeff Hamilton himself Hmm face-to-face So he his previous company he found out they weren't actually fully handmade is what you're saying and then yeah He didn't like that. Yeah, he was angry with that It was it he said it was a name show when I find out I went to the their booth and I said you're not making me my symbols with him anymore and They said yes, and he said he would not play them anymore And then how this artist relations guy Hook him up just in front of the booth and brought him to the boss first. Hey Jeff. Let's try these These are the old kind symbols that you used to play and he tried and He liked that and then he came to the factory in Istanbul several times Developed a signature line together nice, so That's how it happened. So when Jeff Hamilton sign up for boss rest, it was a huge marketing and then other guys followed him and Boss rest became the Probably the third or fourth important symbol brand In the market back in that it's hard to you really have to have a big player You know what? I mean you have to and you guys have multiple but like until you get You know you need you need drummers out there using your stuff and Jeff Hamilton. Obviously. He's very in a good way. He's very particular and picky about what he uses and When people see that and it's just you know, then he's using your stuff and people hear about it and otherwise It's probably symbols aren't Cheap so symbols are pretty expensive. So you kind of want to see a Famous drummer using it and then you can go. Oh, okay. That's I'll buy that now, you know Yeah, that's that's that's the way it happens It's it's a pity that these days now we see those big names drummers these days today They are not after the symbol quality or sound anymore They're more like businessmen making business So that's the sad part It was not like that back in I know that but today is too too much different Yeah, how long have you worked with with the company because you are the international sales director How long have you been with boss? This is my 12th year. Wow. Okay. So I'm almost half of the history Yeah That's awesome. It's not, you know in the big picture of some companies being you know, 400 years old or even 1979 1980 Yeah, the big picture is still pretty young. Yeah, I know I know the thing is There was just one single company After the big guys moved away from here There were just one company and the boss first second one so and Actually boss first is the last company who has the organic Connection with the history The yeah, the company is coming after boss first do not have this organic connection with history of symbol Yeah, there's and I have an episode about With Istanbul Agap about their connection and obviously it goes the connection to the original big the big z company is very It's neat that it stems off of that and then that you know it's it's It happens in business a lot, but when that company left and came to America I mean a lot of people had to lose their jobs, right? I mean it had to have been kind of a well What do we do now and then? That's just it's it's it's an interesting it's interesting how that worked and then these other little companies Started like you guys. Yeah The idea having the company factory in Istanbul Was kind of protecting the history and I even today I really How did they decided to shut it down? But that's a good good thing for myself. So we have boss first now Good it all worked out. I mean Okay, so then you know with the company history there. So obviously Jeff Hamilton I You guys kind of seem like one of those companies where it's not like Every year you're coming out with a bunch of new crazy different, you know stacks and things like that It seems like you have your formula and you stick with it and you're very historically, you know Accurate were there any big let you know milestone moments through the 2000s, you know and the as the company grew Okay The basic The most important thing what boss first did and symbol industry is Actually, you know before boss first there were traditional Turkish style symbols and then the other generic symbols and They were defining Dark and dry symbol as the heavy and thick symbols But when boss first came out What first started to make Really really amazing craftmanship on the symbols with processing extremely thin and Small-bound symbols Which we call today master master vintage series There that was a really big invention for a symbol Market because that was the first time when Extremely thin dark and dry symbols came out so that was the beginning with boss first and Then all other symbol companies followed it to start to make dark dry thin symbols and Boss first is Probably the only company in the world Who can make that thin that flexible and Having this earthy thong in it since it's handmade because if you if you don't make this symbol 100% with him It will not succeed through the mechanic process This death there Can can we talk a little bit about the hand-making process because I think A lot of companies are saying Which I'm sure they are I'm never You know judging one company one way or another but so to be a handmade symbol you guys sound like you are very very true Like these are 100% made by hand so Can you maybe tell us that process of how a symbol is is made when it's really really handmade in Turkey, okay? First of all we have this The to make the bronze we have this copper and 10 the copper must be 99.99% pure and You have to melt it down with the fire of coal With the help of air fans to make it burn faster and get higher temperature today most of the Companies who make their own casting? They use this electric and gas combination Casting systems, which we don't have we have if you check the videos of buffers I must we still have this falling on the ground put the fire in it with coal and Then when it is lit up, we put the mold inside the hole to melt the copper and add the tin in it so Then the bronze When it becomes a bronze boy it's almost thousand and eight hundred Celsius degrees she is and Celsius degrees and Even we are having hard time Find a Mold to melt that copper in that temperature because the company is for producing this melting molds they say these days nobody goes over that temperatures even for iron so that's what they say and We still having this old-fashioned in melting which is putting the carbon in the bronze during the fire process and then we cast the Liquid bronze into the pens Just we can you know, we just hang we have a tool hanging the mold and Then we just pour the liquid metal into these pens one by one without measuring the weight Just by eyesight, you know one must be an expert. You must be a really monster Otherwise, it will be like two heavy pieces impossible to make thin symbols or You just very hard is Whatever you see on the factory because it's 100% real and we do that every week so it must it's a real big experience to see it on your All nice if you come here some day or somebody To come here because we accept visitors to show the casting because people don't know really don't know They don't know what how it does it feel to pour down 1,800 Celsius degrees hot metal Yeah Sounds pretty intense Yeah, and then we have this another four days we light up with wood and And burning woods is not something cheap these days because you know, you have to get licensed wood The government is involved to the process Every any wood piece coming to your factory is registered because how yeah, of course because you can otherwise you just You know the the forest cutters illegal forest cutters sure you can make money over you which is not good So we are buying licensed registered wood cutters And the all the wood that we buy is coming from government at pro And all the documents are legal. That's that's a hard process also. I've never thought about that, but it makes sense people The alternative is people just like cutting down forests and you know Yeah, so so we've We need special kind of trees to burn because it has to be high temperature and taking more time to burn out So so we were we light up this furnace. He did this cast of this to Scroll them through the pressing cylinders again and again and again after every time it goes back into four days Gets hot and soft again, then take it out and roll it again. Just like making pizza. You're you're opening up the door Pizzamakers are making it with hands. We have to keep them and roll them through the press cylinders and Even the smallest splash symbol should be passing through this Rolling cylinders at least six or seven times Think about the big rise for tracks for 26 inches. Sure. Yeah so and Then when the plate is big and thin enough No, we We press the bell in the middle one more time with the heating and then It's ready to be hammered. So we just cut it into a perfect circle and Then start to hammer it to shape it like a symbol and then from that point a Symbol is hammered at least six to ten hours Wow So and then getting laid it again hammered, you know some of our symbols has no lighting on them and That that means the symbol the plate itself must be that light from the casting So that's yeah, that's crazy because you know Have you ever? Checked our master vintage rights. That's 22 inch right with less than three kilograms Yeah, two and a half two and a two point seventy five kilograms and has no lighting on it and getting that Roll through pressing cylinders hot Getting the bell pressed on it heading it out in circle and then hammering it for six ten hours Without breaking. That's a tough work Yeah, I I just can't believe that They don't That they're just kind of doing it by eye and you're not really measuring it or you're not saying alright like a Like an ingot or whatever. I'm probably saying that wrong But like like you know like the gold like it like the like a chunk of metal. Yeah, that's just so Well that that I guess speaks to how each symbol Slightly is is one of a kind I would imagine. Yeah, actually that's kind of our feels The boss for us is against time dark station Because what we Tell here to our workers every day and to lose so standardization is against the Creative rule of art So you can't have Mona Lisa, but printed copies of Mona Lisa. It's not that valuable No, so now that's a good point. So every single master symbol kind of It's not copy Now and what's interesting and So America or Canada, there's just very stringent Like safety guidelines and of course, I don't I'm not saying that you guys aren't safe because you sound like you're complete masters, but The the way that you can make the symbols and even when I watch the video and there's just like bubbling like molten metal And it's just very like natural and raw Here in America there seems to be such More like the government has these these like safety, you know Regulations and all this where you couldn't maybe do the the the classic style of Symbol making that you guys have mastered. You know what I'm saying like Yeah I need to I think mention about something first of all In Turkey the legal working age is 16 Yeah, so after 16 years old you can start to work legally in any job you like to work So most of the boss first workers started about that age 1670s and we don't let anybody to go near the hot metal or something before They he fully understands what's going on in there and it takes like three four years. So And It really takes a very long time to train as symbols Yeah, it's a really long process. I That's something I tell to most of my friends that it's probably much easier to be a doctor Yeah, probably it's probably safer. I mean again, not that you're not safe, but but there's less danger Actually, right here in here you you feel that it's not that dangerous because everybody expert on what they're doing and this is a 25th year of boss first and I'm glad to tell that we never had even one single Serious injurious during doing this job in here. Nobody injured. Yeah boss first Five years. Yeah, some more things. Yeah, you can just cut your finger and put a tape on it That's everything that happens at home So that kind of things but never nobody gets seriously injured in Boss for us since coming in five years, we never get an impulse in the factory not even once Wow, you guys having that mastery of Pouring these and doing this and it's more it's it's almost like It's obviously smaller like most companies than the the big the big, you know, two or three or whatever So you guys can be more, you know attentive and have these masters How many employees does boss for us have we are all Like 23 24 people here Wow, that's pretty small. I mean, that's great. I just love it because you can yeah, you know when you get a symbol It's it's special. Yeah, and we make only 20 to 30 symbols a day Hmm, that's that's that's that's what we do and that is about little more than 10,000 symbols a year Yeah, which is still pretty That's still in my opinion a lot of symbols. I mean obviously to the biggest company produces two and a half million My god, I didn't know that Yeah, so we're kind of still boutique small company The name of boss first is much bigger than it is Physically exists and that's because of this craftsmanship and the very detailed Process that we follow without any Excuses since 25 years Yeah, which that's great that that and I've found that I have found that on episodes with Vic Firth Pearl Yamaha these companies where they a lot of people will say Yeah, people think we're a massive huge company But there's actually we're not that big where and I'm kind of thinking I agree with them But I'm also like, okay pearl you are big like Smaller companies, but I mean, I think it's great that your name has spread and that that obviously goes to You know speak to the the quality and all that that stuff are you guys And I've played some I believe I played I've played them at a drum show and then I believe I tried some out at there's Badges drum shop here in Cincinnati And I believe yeah last time I was there. I was hitting a boss for us ride and it sounded amazing Are you guys typically is There any specific kind of music that you guys cater to more like jazz or rock? What or is it just all kinds of music? We are a symbol company be pretty simple. It doesn't matter which Genre is going to be played for symbol is a symbol. So That's something became quite The basic understanding in the recent years, but it's not true. You don't have a Symbol company for jazz music. You don't have a Symbol company for blues music. That's that's not true. That's that's that's a wrong opinion in my understanding so boss first is More preferred by the jazz That's a reality because they are playing in more acoustic situations and with less amps less mics and Probably in smaller venues and Yeah And you hear the symbol much more than other music types So the sound of symbol is much more important than other genres so So but according to my understanding Any drummer who really listens to the tone of the symbol can play boss first Yeah, well well put. I mean, that's that's a good if you are I mean nowadays I would I would assume if you're a you know a symbol company making we just make You know jazz symbols you can't survive doing that because that's there's not enough You know, you know, I mean it you got to be You have to make them for everyone have you guys found that I feel like in the recent years There's been more more symbols coming up in different From different countries like I know here in America. There's some really cool Smaller companies some some guys like Nikki moon who's a friend and then Ray burn from burn symbols. There's there's other symbol makers Coming up around the world I'm sure that's you know It's good for the love of symbols to have more people involved and that it's carrying on but obviously that's tricky for business when when there's there's more People making symbols. There's less There's more competition. Have you noticed that recently? Yeah, that's what we call it they're pumping up right mushrooms everything But it's not a good something bad for us because we are already a boutique company. Yeah really small amount of Capacity manufacturing so we already sell every single symbol we make so that's the That's the problem of big boys not us Sure Yeah, you guys are established and and I great answer because I was hoping it was like, you know It's there's plenty of room out there and I think like I said that there's those guys are great Make amazing symbols you make amazing symbols. I think You know, that's a good point of like, you know, you're you're established, but maybe the big big big big boys out there they might it might be a little bit You know, oh You know, oh, I think people are liking these boutique symbol brands a lot Like it's almost like in my opinion you see on like Instagram and stuff. It's cool to have non major Symbol brands like you have boutique brands. It's becoming more cool. Okay. Let me Give you a underlying some insider view Well, the big guys shut down the factory in 1979 Why another symbol company established in Istanbul because music industry drummers some of them immediately realized what they have lost the this Handmade symbol business is the soul of the drummers because a otherwise You cannot sound different Because it's like the same difference between electronic keyboards and acoustic pianos So this is like yeah, we are When you have this handmade single You're the only guy who have this sound flat on your drum and Exactly, so some dermers. I'm not sure how many how many of them maybe 25 to 30% of total dermers in the world has really serious Intention about this matter they don't want to lose their sound they want to be unique They want to be The one and only with that instrument because you cannot tune the symbols sure You cannot amp the symbol the guitar player can't put a different M and how different you cannot do that So I'm very happy that the drummers More and more drummers are being aware of that. So the question is Why these We'll take simple companies coming up because there's a demand so the question is why other the big sample companies cannot Feed this demand and then other single companies can survive. So that's the big question mark for themselves They have to ask themselves Yeah, I really do enjoy the symbols of of the big companies of the small ones I think they're all great, but but I do think there's there's something about supporting something smaller But on that note, I have a question about so I've never been to Turkey. I would love to go but Is there obviously there's others other symbol you guys are your own, you know, you're doing something very unique But there's other symbol makers in Turkey Is there like a competition between you and like the the Istanbul factory who again has been on the show and our friends? is there kind of a Competition between the Turkish brands that you can feel going on It's really hard to tell because you know, yeah, of course in the business wise we are competing to try Yeah, my bosses Would have been working with them for 16 years. Oh It's they have this friendly relationship each other and when we meet during the straight shows of any day They talk to each other friendly so so since as I can tell that the whole symbol business in Turkey is Less than 10% of the global market Mm-hmm. So competing each other is not Really doesn't make sense So there's a huge 90 plus percent market out there so So mostly every symbol maker in Turkey is after that portion not from each other's portion Sure Yeah, no, that's a great answer Okay, so Obviously, it's COVID right now. It's February 8th 2021 when we're recording this COVID has been tough for everyone. So there's no shows and all this stuff But is there anything new and cool that you guys are working on in the future? Or is it kind of just sticking with the traditional, you know Everything that's been been great or you know, what what's going on in the future with boss for us? Okay, this is our 25th anniversary. So we have been Working on a new symbol line like an anniversary of 25th because we have launched 20th anniversary of 40 years ago and now It would be a good idea to make a 25th anniversary And we did it. Yeah, it's it's almost ready But we postponed the launch of the line To some date that we don't know yet, probably it will be launched this year Since the NEM has canceled and nobody knows if the Germany show is going to be happening happening or not, so we will We are trying to launch that new line for an anniversary of 25th year in this year, so we don't want to leave it for next year, but Who knows, you know Yeah, that's great. Um, you know, I was curious from googling it. Bosphorus is a town or like what is Bosphorus? Okay, Bosphorus is a state Uh, it's between Black Sea to Marmara Sea, which is an inlet sea of Turkey So the Marmara Sea is just Like a big lake which is connected to the Black Sea In the north and connected to the agency on the west So there are two states one of them is Bosphorus. The other one is Gallipoli Yeah, so Bosphorus is the straight just Goes like a river in the middle of Istanbul and divides Istanbul into two parts With european side and asian side So we have this because the if you check the turkey map The 75 percent of the country is a part of asian continent and then 25 percent of the country is part of european continent And Bosphorus is just in the middle interesting I would love to go uh and visit my brother's friend growing up His family would go there and post pictures of it and it just looks beautiful. I mean, it seems like such a cool place to visit It is uh There's something that I tell to People who likes to visit Istanbul Istanbul has never Experienced a war since 1453 So the history is all there So we have a mosque By the Bosphorus which we call new mosque and it was made in 1600s Wow, so so You know the europe continent and most of the places on earth was demolished by the first world war and second world war And Istanbul didn't experience that So that's all history since the Byzantine empire age So you can see the walls the roman empire And then the automobiles all everything. So it's just like a magic Yeah, man, that's I've never thought about that you you you kind of take for granted that like Everywhere is like that but there's um where they're you know at a certain point things got destroyed and rebuilt But um, what a cool way to look at it. Um You know someday hopefully I'll I'll be around there and uh Check out the factory now that seems unlikely with the way the world is You know with whatever you like to be like this Yeah, I wish I wish sooner than later. Um Okay, I'm right. Why don't we tell people where they can uh, well first Is there any other cool, uh, any other thing that I you think I missed that we should kind of uh, you know Talk about about Bosphorus. Um, okay, uh, first of all it's The long-time challenge for me that First of all people should understand that Handmade symbol 100 percent handmade symbol is not the same thing with hand hammered symbol So hand hammered symbol means the symbol is made and finished by hand Um 100 handmade symbol. I think the boss versus the only company who uses that Because this is the truth Uh, so they must be understanding the difference because people say, uh You're not cheap. You're not cheap, but we are not expensive too. Most of Bosphorus symbols models are Hats out in the market is lower cost than machine made symbols. That's not fair Of course, we accept that this is the market situation So, uh, I really wanted to underline that one more time and The second thing is Bosphorus is working very hard to have a consistent quality with Symbols, but when it's handmade it's your personal choice. So You can have Video demonstrations Sound demonstrations or you can play yourself go to the store and play yourself but You must be selected your boss or symbol in person um That that's the way it has to be So yeah, that's that's a good point as i'm uh I was just looking up some of the prices and it brought up amazon and right as you said that i'm like Yeah, you can't buy a handmade symbol on amazon or um You know a website because you have to hear it which um You know, so maybe if if you don't have a shop in your city Or town or whatever that that carries them you might have to you know drive a little bit or um visit one of the drum shows Yeah, there are some shops who are making video demonstrations for each symbol they have in stock So, you know, yeah, you're getting before you buy Or or some some of them make sound demonstrations or some of them are video demonstrations That really works well too uh, we never get a complaint about but Uh, sure you need to select it And anytime but you you need to hear it before you buy Yeah, and they're really not that Expensive. I mean like you you said they're they're they're lower if not competitive with the um the big boys And they're beautiful symbols. I mean they are just so cool looking. Um, and I like your logo a lot too So All right, well then everyone needs to turn this off and go out and try some boss for us symbols right now and uh Because they're one of a kind man. That's that's so cool. Well. Um, all right, so people can go to boss for us symbols dot com b o s p h o r u s symbols dot com Um, and again, I want to thank rafael zimmerman and alejandro perez for suggesting this and i'm pretty sure I'm forgetting a couple other people who suggested this A while back. So if you did then thank you um to you too, but um Um Cool. Well, um emra man. I appreciate you taking the time and being so patient and kind of rescheduling with me a few times Uh to do this because that's a pleasure for me You know, I I go into all these sort of knowing but I really didn't know Um too much about boss for us really and I'm I'm so happy to learn more about it And I really enjoyed hearing the difference between hand hammered and handmade because you you don't You know, you don't think about that too much Um, and that that's really neat to put it in perspective like that. Thank you. Thank you I'm very happy to have this chance To get out some words for boss for us So thank you for inviting me to do this Oh, my pleasure. You did a great job. So all right emra, thanks for being here. You're welcome. Bye. Bye If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning