 Good morning, everyone. This is the July 15th meeting of the elementary school building committee. And seeing that we have a forum, I'm going to call the meeting to order at 831. And my first order of business is to make sure everyone can hear and be heard. So I just wanted to let people know that the legislature has voted. But it has to go to the governor to allow us to continue to meet by zoom if we want to continue. But we're in this one day limbo land where our town attorney determined that because we posted it on Tuesday we can't we didn't have time to tell the public that they would have in person under our old rules to to a physical site so that we could conduct this meeting virtually as we are now doing. So I will do as we've done in the past just making sure everyone can hear and be heard by calling out the names of the committee members. Paul. Here. Tammy. Here. Sean. Here. Ben. Unmute again, Ben, just let make sure we can hear you. We're not hearing you. I'll go to the next one Rupert. Allison. Here. Great. Jonathan. Here. Phoebe. Hello. Hi, and Ben, let's see if you've got your audio set up. Yeah. And Rupert, I didn't hear Rupert respond. So I'm seeing a Sean, I think Mary also is raising her hand and she, she is from answer and Margaret, you wanted to bring her into the meeting. Is that correct? Yes, and also Bob Stevens should be with us. I see Bob. Okay. And there's Mary. Great. Okay. So we want, we have one more committee member who said she would be here virtually. And that is Alicia. So when she appears, I'll call on her, but I am going to turn the meeting over to answer who will introduce what we're doing today. And we have two people that are joining us. So Margaret, it's your on. Um, just briefly, I know you all have met Bob before who is always backing me up. But I also wanted to introduce Mary Bolso who is going to be actually in my role, leading the project when we're in construction. Mary is a long time partner in crime and lives in. Mary, why don't you say a few words about yourself? Yeah, I live in Central Mass and I'm currently working out that way in another project. So it's convenient and timing. I've been an owner's project manager for over 10 years. Before that I was always been on the trade. So looking forward to this. So what I'm going to do is just quickly put up the agenda. And then we'll move on. So here, can everybody see that? Or can someone see it? Yeah, I can see it. So the first thing we're going to look at is design target dates, which Dennis co has developed. Kathy set them out, I think with the agenda. But I'll pull them up. And the meeting schedule work. And then most of the meeting is going to be devoted to a discussion of the decision that the kitty mini needs to make between design bid build and construction manager at risk. As a method of project delivery. We're going to talk a little bit about dates for school visits and if we have time we're going to talk about that. What Dennis go is recommending for the sustainability rating system for the project, and we have one invoice to look at at the end so take that down. And I'm going to pull up the meeting list. So many things up in my desktop. Here we go. I'll make this little bigger. So, Donna and Tim, do you want to. And Rick, I think is here as well. Do you want to walk us through this. Let's go over to Tim. This list is basically the milestones of decisions that we have to hit, you know, to get to where we want to be in November when we're putting the pricing set together. So, we're looking at big picture items first overall site plan, the mechanical system, you know, in general air source first ground source. And toward the front end, we're doing a lot of scheduling, making sure that the plan is working. And then we get into a finer grain of detail with particular meetings that being said, just as an overall this is milestones broad brush. We'd like to have a little bit of a discussion about how we achieve these. These are all currently full committee meetings every two weeks. And this is a lot to get through. In large, full building committee meetings. So there's a discussion that has to be had about a working group or smaller affinity groups and what the composition and schedule for those meetings would be particularly for design. Various aspects of design. Obviously planned layout will be discussed primarily and initially with Mike and the school department. But there may be people on the committee or even soon aren't necessarily on the committee that have an affinity for exterior design. Various aspects of the project. So we have to have a discussion of how we set those groups up and what the parameters are and how they can meet and how we can move through this. So, I just scroll down to the end because one of the challenges of doing a project that starts in the summer where it seems like it's forever until you get finished is remembering that you're sort of trying to wrap up the project through the holidays. So you can see here. I think a really important milestone to be aware of is that the cost estimating is proposed to be done by the end of October. And then we're sort of actually the documents that are going to the cost estimators the estimators are working in November on the estimates. The committee sees them in early December. And then the schematic design submission. We're tentatively saying is midnight mid December. We actually don't know what the MSBA submittal date is because they have not yet published their January meeting calendar. I think are good educated guests. And then there would be a vote in early January to submit the schematic design. So those end dates are a little subject to change based on the MSBA calendar. But that's kind of the overall arc of the process. Does anybody have any questions about that. Sean, Sean's hands is up. Yeah, so a couple of questions. I didn't see on there when we'll actually decide on the construction delivery option is that That's a great question. We could you could decide today. Based on the presentation. I think that would be a good idea at the latest to decide at the next meeting. Okay, I think we were going to not do anything major today because of the limbo period we're in. And then a couple other questions. When, when will we have a good sort of estimate of the town share that we feel comfortable sharing. I see the vote in December, or the cost estimate in December and I think the council is thinking about their vote being in December. But we're going to need to have information ahead of time prior to that to share with the public and to do the outreach and all that so what date do you think is the earliest we would have that. I would say, I've actually done a draft of it. I haven't shared it yet. It needs to be updated with the design bid build numbers that the estimates were based as you all might remember on CM so I will need to update them with design numbers if we go in that direction but as you know I could do that now I just need to go back to Pete Timothy, didn't go to him I'll need to go back to them, and kind of get, because I think he's based he based his direct labor numbers on the CM option and then calculate it as a lump sum, what the savings would be so that's with that with that piece of data. Maybe after we, if we voted the next meeting on the delivery option then I don't want to rush it I'm just saying if we have a few months before that vote that would be great. And then the last thing is so you know if we want to discuss ways to based on cost estimates are based on the information from the design if we want to discuss ways to potentially reduce the overall cost of the project. In terms of maybe bid alternates or things like that that we would go forward with. When would that type of discussion happen. I'm going to ask the Dinesco team for their thoughts about that. And I bring it up because we're having a similar discussion with our with our library project right now we're everyone knows you know construction costs are really high. And so, you know, I think it's a good conversation for us to have at some point is just, you know, are there ways where we can, you know, decisions we can make or we can at least give ourselves the option. When we get the bids to reduce costs. Yeah, and I think you know a lot of the conversation, as we refine the design those conversations will come up right so some of it could be. Discussed as materials are selected as the design. Kind of develops so those convert we don't like to say here is your product and oh by the way, here are ways to do what we can look at options as we go through it Sean and then identify. What's most important kind of do, you know, a list of we don't like alternates is a better word than value engineering. And then the other consideration is, okay, how does this impact the design, right, so we'll say okay well this we can do and carry an alternate until bid day, and this we really need to make a decision before that date because it impacts xyz but we'll can, we'll have those conversations with you throughout schematic design. Um, you know, can I can I also just add. This may seem counterintuitive, but I think that you, you want to really nail the scope of the project for the schematic design process. The project has a long way to go after schematic design in ways that impact the cost of the project. So I just want to make sure everybody understands like when we get to the end of schematic design and we're submitting this. Submission is about getting to an agreement about cost with the MSBA right and to have a number on which to base a debt exclusion. It does not mean that the process of looking for cost savings is going to stop. And I will also say the market's been so volatile. I think there's going to be an ongoing discussion about like something that is going to be a price x in December could be higher or lower six or eight months later. So it, I just want to make sure everybody understands that when we get to the end of schematic design we're not done with that conversation. You should think of the schematic design piece as setting the basis of the funding agreement. Okay so I see Kathy's hands up. I'm going to do a follow up on Sean's but also link it to this notion of working groups that Tim just did. I understand the process the Mike was going to identify within the school staff Tammy Allison and whomever. So, we're at a point of saying, what do these rooms really look like, what does the inside of the building look like what does the outside of the building look like you know making some choices, all of which has to do with both the look and feel of the building but also the cost of the building. We're going to be doing materials decisions and we're going to be doing three site visits, which will let us look at some schools that have been built recently, and I've started, I don't know how many other people doing it it's like this, an obsession with this project but I'm at Amherst College and I've started taking pictures because they've, they've done a bunch of new buildings recently and going this one is different from that, and try to figure out is that metal on the outside is that brick what is, you know, on the outside of the building and I hate it I like it, but trying to just think through, we have a lot of choices. So, my, my question with that is, if some but not all of the committee, as we are, and I want to make sure Alicia is here so I want to make sure she can hear she has joined us Margaret for your notes. Thank you. But if some but not all of us want to be either a fly on the wall, as those discussions are happening because we don't know enough on what does the art room look like or the music room, you know, on placement and refinement, or active. And, and we want to involve more of the people who work in the buildings, the staff. When do we have to do what to, if it's just school staff working with Mike, we don't have to formally set up a meeting. We try to do something that's a voting group, we have to set it up more officially so that's, I just want to, because it seems to me, it needs to start now, July and August and September by that schedule is when all of this, these kinds of decisions will be made so I just wanted to sense Tim and Donna and I'm thinking that means you come out to Amherst, and you know are literally like this. I'll stop talking but it shows my layperson Jonathan for the architect. This is what this kind of brick would look like you don't have to do this kind of brick you could do that for the outside of the building. And we'll get into windows and daylighting and, and other kinds of things but when, when are you going to be wanting an active group to meet with to go through those decisions. Well, I mean, some of the things that you just mentioned like this brick versus that brick is a couple meetings down the road but the very within two weeks, we are going to start moving pieces around on the site and look to be looking for guidance talking about the site of the plan and for instance that this big picture moves in terms of the plan site plan and we'll want way in so I mean honestly as soon as we can schedule it if it was around or instead of or on the same day as the meeting of the 29th, we will have a lot to talk about then we need to get moving. I just on that have you, Mike was not able to be with us today but have you been in contact with Mike and trying to set something up with where or Tammy and Allison you know where where people are that and Rupert and Ben you know where people are the summer you know to see getting people in a room together. We haven't. I think Mike was away. I'm not sure but I mean we can certainly take a poll and make sure that he has his team. I think Ben would definitely or or Rupert would definitely also want to be involved to because they have a big role in this as well but he recognizes probably the worst time a year truly to try to move this forward so we can reach out to him and and make sure I think he's hopefully given some thought on who he would like involved we're actually moving into the weeds here but the one of the very first tasks which will be important is to organize the classrooms or the spaces all the rooms in the building and so we really would look to the experts that are in those spaces. And you have two schools, right merging so I, we just have to figure out for example, art, right, and bringing those art teachers into the room together, and even if it's just for an hour to talk about just specifically their area of expertise. And then there'd be other spaces that we would want away special ed will be an important consideration because they have many spaces. PE outdoor learning all of that so we'll put a list together for Mike and then make sure we can do that, you know get it to him early next week so he can see who we're looking to bring to the table. That would be helpful. We've been talking about it and obviously the principles would be great too. And then with the committee. You've mentioned there's a large share of the people you've mentioned on our committee, but we also have others on the committee so to the extent. If one of us wanted to be at least hearing those discussions would you show us the schedule of when you're meeting talking about what, and then for, and, and Paul had said earlier that if we try to set up anything as a working group. If it isn't just advising and working with the superintendent, then we need to post it we had needed. Am I right Paul that there need to be appointments to it so even if we're just saying it's ad hoc and that it's just for this three month time period, we would have to set something up so it's just for a way to, to, to be, to allow participation and, and, and you don't the meetings with Mike and staff don't have to be posted publicly with zoom or whatever we could make and we could bring the materials back to the committee. Yeah, you know, so it would be public so I'm, I'm just looking for you all to give us that kind of schedule. So that, and, you know, exterior the building. There's going to be a lot of interest on. Daylighting on you know the sustainability materials but also just the, the, the, the, we've already started having them, you've told us amount of insulation in the building and what's on the outside of the building to the extent that helps with heat retention or keeping heat out of the building in the summertime so that's what I was seeing at Amherst College they had these like little shelves around the windows that I think were to prevent glare. So, so there may be some of us that are more able to think through that than the inside of the building so just if we had some schedule to react to. I'm not talking because I'm seeing Jonathan's nodding his head periodically so just on a when and how the full committee. Those of us who want to engage and Rupert's up. No, no, you're a Kathy and I think, as far as Mike and his team. And, and their input as to reconfirming the layout of the building and then what their spaces are going to look like or be designed to that's one conversation, the, the all everything you just said about the exterior the windows the lighting, the insulation, those are probably more for different subgroups than than for Mike and his team. Right. So the look of the building really it would be great to get a team that is interested in the exterior design. Right, maybe, maybe there's some people that are more interested in the exterior design and leaving it to the occupants for the interior design or something. The net zero group there may be people on that net zero subcommittee that may want to weigh in on the insulation and, and that type of thing day lighting. So we'll we'll articulate, you know, the types of conversations and I think you will have hopefully a wide range of topics that different people can pick and choose what's important to them, or what their experts and So I'm going to stand this up so one question would be if we, we called it the net zeros subcommittee if we called it the sustainability just yeah we get the name and it's a subgroup of ours, Paul, if we said we want to expand that we could. We made we voted to set that up Paul we can set that up if it's a subgroup of us correct. So if others who aren't on that now would like to be part of it, you know they can, we can do that on the 29 when we meet again two weeks from now to make that committee be this committee is now. We can call it the exterior of the building to whatever we need. So it's a subgroup of this committee correct Paul. I'm just looking at Paul's. Yes, that's true. And so this, this body can create subcommittees and other you know, you know, like the Jones library has an outreach subcommittee they have a design subcommittee. There's different subcommittee so this group has already done the sustainability subgroup. So we could have a different subgroup that looks at different aspects of it as well. Paul, we couldn't have formally have someone who's not on the committee on it. No, it should be a sub kit subset of this group. Yeah. And those meetings need to be posted. Correct. Correct. For every, for every additional subcommittee you make there's there's administrative work that goes with it. What I was thinking is we could expand the title of the subcommittee we have, if it's since the exterior of the building is partly about sustainability. No, I totally agree with that strategy. Okay. Okay, Rupert, sorry to talk so long. There. Now I'm unmuted. No, that's fine. It's all, it's all important. I'm concerned that we're not, I'm not seeing space and time in the schedule to try to deal with what I think is the, the thorniest issue which is the transportation and traffic and site access. And I'm very concerned that we're going to just sort of ignore that until it's too late to make any meaningful improvements or changes because the rest design will proceed without it. I think it would be irresponsible for us, or for anyone for that matter to suggest that those issues will resolve themselves or that we can just ignore them. I think they're extremely important for safety. I think some of the impacts for example if it takes a very long time for school buses to get into and out of the school building site. There's an impact on scheduling for the middle and high school because of the way the bus runs work. All of these things need to be considered and I urge us to try to resolve these as soon as possible. Yeah, we're in agreement. Yep, we, we actually, that is, again, another conversation that can occur simultaneously. And we're, we fully support everything you just said, Rupert. So I think we would need to work with Paul and Sean, because some of that is, it's off, off site, right, and, and how we address that but we're ready to get going on that as well. So, again, is that another subgroup, Paul and Sean or is that something the town wants to help us navigate. I think it would be a subgroup. I think it would, you know, we clearly want the town engineer to be part and parcel to this conversation along with Rupert who's going to have no the expertise from inside the site. And then we have the, and I think just working through the staff level and then bring to this committee, sort of what some options are working with the designers as well. I think what Rupert is asking is the, when we looked at the list of the agenda, the word traffic wasn't on it and Rupert it was tentatively on it for today, but I knew that the discussion with Paul hadn't happened yet. So I think we need to put it on the agenda so that it's, whether it's the 29th or that first meeting in August, we have a target date Paul so that the discussions have happened and you can bring it to the committee. So, I can talk to you afterwards on what what is feasible. Yeah, correct. Yeah, I just just to set and manage expectations I think that to bring something forward to the committee that we would not be prepared by July 29 to bring anything but but it will occur simultaneously to all these other conversations because we need to understand how the traffic informs the site flow and everything else so so they are part parcel to all of this. And it could just be updates to right so if we don't have a recommendation we can say we've been working on this and we're looking at two options just just to keep everyone informed. I think a lot of these subgroups or sub conversations are going to be pretty fluid and we're going to want to study them for one to two months we don't want to rush but we can be reporting back and saying this is what you know we've achieved and this is the direction we're going is everyone good without having to make a final decision in two weeks. Okay, so we can have we can try to do that behind this, you know with Paul Rupert and then figure out what what the data is any options and discussion can be brought back to the committee. And maybe what I, maybe what I can do is I can take the initiative to organize that on our end and then get back to Kathy on timing. Any other Donna your hand was up with that. It was it was just just going back to I don't know if it was Rupert or Ben regarding, or I think we're Sean regarding the alternates MSBA does require at schematic design and also at every other submission to have a list of what they call value engineering. And so it really is sort of our alternate list to say, okay, have you thought about, we want you to continue to have a list of what they call value engineering which is maybe a selection of a particular item that might cost less or you might it be a process of something that you may do differently. That may influence the cost. And so MSBA wants us to keep this running tally, usually because as you know the market, you know, may spike or go down that you have alternatives to consider as as you work through the design as Margaret said so I wouldn't use the word value engineering because that's such a negative connotation but we will keep this running tally throughout the design process. And it will be part of this mission and everyone will get to weigh in on it right so instead of doing the X tier we're going to use more ground face CMU or something because it's less expensive or whatever so we'll we'll have options for those. Okay, I'm watching the time. Okay anything else on this topic. And from what we know just everyone should know is the we got word that the legislature has allowed zoom meetings to continue. So we will be able to continue to use this option if, unless we want to meet in person at some point so I'm turning it I think the next is you Margaret is that correct. All right, so we're going to toggle to this discussion of design bed build versus CM at risk so I set the slides out last night. If you need to look at them they should be in your inbox. This is a, it's a, this is complex issue. But I think, you know, the bottom line just before we get started is that there's, there's a general perception that design bed build is less expensive than construction management at risk for a bunch of reasons I ran a lot of different opinions in the room about this. But I think generally the numbers bear out that that's the case and I know that the cost of that project is a hot topic. Here, what I'm going to try to sort of outline in this process is that there are, there are some risks associated to this project that we need to design bed build works well for, you know, really straightforward simple projects it's it's a bad idea. If you're, you know, doing some of the other options we looked at where you're doing an ad rena you really want to have a construction manager. So there's much to recommend design bed build for this project because the way to nisco has approached this we essentially have a construction site next to an operating school but there's a, you know, there's a dividing line between them. The complexity here really comes around the net zero piece and the ground source and the geothermal system, and it's integration with the building so with that being said I'm going to share this. I'm going to go through a couple of couple of slides at a time and then check and see if hands are up so one second having trouble sharing this. Sorry I've lost the screen that's going to let me share. It's just going to take me a minute to figure this out. Sorry I've lost my share button so I'm going to. Do you do you want, I've got it available to share a few. Yeah, I could do it too. Well, yeah there's. This is why I'm still I'm still a bit of a, yeah why don't you pull it up Sean. Go ahead Kathy and do it. No, if you've got it shown to do it. I'll have to exit. I don't have it open as a screen is that I'm large enough. Yeah, that's totally fine. I've got it at a bigger scale on my screen so let's go to the next. The next slide. So, you know just in terms of the lingo. So in Massachusetts there's two ways to do what they call project delivery. One is 149 which is also called design build build and one is 149 a as a reminder. We did the PSR estimates. The estimates for design bid build was a little over 97 million for design bid build and about 106 million for a CM at rest. Now, you know there's both of our estimators who worked on this are folks who came out of the design bid build background and they I think have a bit of a bias towards design bid build. But in the following slides I'm going to talk a little bit about the real differences there are so Sean how about the next slide then. Margaret I just want to confirm those numbers those were project costs correct. Those are the project costs. Exactly. So, so to understand what's in the mix here. There's three components here and which are represented by the color so I took to do this chart I took the Fort River estimate. Pete Timothy's estimate, and I took all of the what's called file sub bids, which are the orange, which are actually bid independent of either a general contractor or a CM at rest. So is what's called trade bids, which are bid in the case of a general contractor their bid directly to the general contractor. And actually any other case bid directly to the contractor and then the 11% is the cost of the general contractor, or in this case it was using the CM. So, next slide. So, there are. This is just a little bit of an explanation of, you know what the difference is so with design bid build. You're essentially putting the thing out to bed and you are getting back a cost so it's a sort of single moment in time the way it works as you actually did the file sub bids first and then the general contractor provides a bid for the entire project folding in the appropriate filed sub bids. Next slide. So in a CM at risk you're actually hiring someone to work with the project team. We definitely recommend I know Janisco agrees that it be part of be part of schematic design. Then they really have ownership of what has gone to the MSBA and what is the basis of the funding agreement. Next slide. So, there's a lot of people disagree with about this but I tried to list here what is an agreement so it's the traditional chapter 149 design build it's the traditional method of building a project. The builders called a general contractor it's design is finished then bid file sub bids come first, and then the bid for the entire project. The selection is bid or price based the contract value is called a lump sum, and the contract is what's called a closed book, because the contractor doesn't share information about the bids with the owner. Next slide. So construction management at risk. The builder is called a construction manager the selection is qualifications and cost based you actually to do this you set up a committee would be a subset of this committee to select the CM and you first advertise and take in qualifications. And then you short list three to five firms typically to bid on their general conditions if you think back to the, the pie chart to bid on the gray part of the cost. If the contractor participates in pre qualifying subcontractors they would be pre qualified in any case but they're a participant in that process. It's a little easier to do early bid packages to that are, and to integrate them. It's called when you sign the contract is what's called a guaranteed maximum price, and it is an open book so you see not what's in the felt sub bids but the general contractors costs as well as the trade bid costs are sort of viewed by the owner and there's an opportunity to comment on them and be engaged in that. Next slide. Um, these are the things that are usually taken into consideration when making this decision. How complicated it is I mentioned at the beginning you know the complexity here is definitely around the net zero piece, but budget designed to build is generally considered cheaper construction quality. It's important to understand that the general contractor, who is a low bidder will provide typically less oversight during construction than a CM, because it's really, it's part of how they are getting to the most competitive cost. Well, there is, as I mentioned a little bit more flexibility for early packages but it's not impossible to do early packages with design been built. In fact, I think to nisco has quite a bit of experience with this. The risk is tied to the complexity. So it's kind of about the net zero owners expertise design build bill is just much more straightforward to administer. The owner's level of effort if you're going to do a construction management project you do need to set up a committee that allows you to do the procurement of the construction manager and that that process does take about three months typically. So next slide. The pros and cons. This is starting to be a little bit repetitive of the earlier slides but the pro of design build build is it's definitely simpler. And it does typically produce a lower base contract cost. The cons are it's more linear so you can't. It's hard to do for instance. Really complicated early packages using this process. If it's over the estimate, it may require you to read that it. There is an increased likelihood maybe probability is not the right word of dispute some claims it definitely puts more pressure on the designer to have a really tight set of documents. And I know Dennis goes good at that. There's no builder input on the design and the full cost tends to not be realized so completion when you see what the changing orders were next slide. These are the pros and cons of construction management again this is getting a bit repetitive. I thought it was good to summarize them. Why don't we go to the next slide, which is about finding the tipping point so there's several slides here that this one and the next one actually pulled from an associated general contractor presentation at the AGC. They are big proponents of Sam at risk many of their members are contractors who like to do Sam at risk so I always look at what they're presenting for bias but I think these two statements are correct, and that it's a kind of, you know finding the tipping point and evaluating your project there's no perfect way to do this. The next slide, which is, again, it's an AGC slide, and it has, you know, again perhaps some bias but into it does. I think as a diagram does explain, you know really well how these numbers are different. And, for instance, I want to really focus on this purple piece in the middle. One of the biggest differences here is that the non so the file sub bids you can imagine are basically they get they get bit the same those numbers are probably going to be relatively similar, whether it's a CM project or a design build project, but on this in this purple zone the non trade contractors and and they're, I went by the side a little fast, they're big numbers in the project, but probably only about 30% of the cost in total. It's concrete, it's steel, it's site work. Those get bid. When a general contractor situation they get been directly to the general contractor and the CM to the CM but they're, it's open books so the owner gets to see them. And there's, I think no question that there is, there tends to be a difference there in terms of cost that in the last competitive CM world, where the CMs are have a bit of more of an opportunity to pick. You know who they're using those numbers tend to be bigger. And then on the trade bids. I think these numbers are, you know, pretty close. The CM project has embedded in the contract what's called a CM contingency, which is can only be used with owner approval. And that is then outside of that, in either case, there's a change order number that is controlled by the owner. So, you know, the, the question mark is because there's always a discretionary, the use of the CM contingency is discretionary to the owner and the change orders are really, you know, subject to a lot of discussion, and also sometimes not necessarily agreement. So this is the piece that you spend, you really want to keep this number down during construction. But it is can be mitigated in the CM piece, CM side by the use of CM contingency. So next slide. Just to sorry I'm going through these slides all at once without stopping because I can't actually see you all right now. I'm going to stop at the end and look at these. I put in here at the end, just a reminder about, for instance, how Wildwood, the Wildwood project which, which did propose to use a CM and a CM was selected for the project how what that project looked like and you can see, it was, you know, it was really a different project it wasn't for instance that zero it wasn't three stories. It had a pretty big footprint and what they did was they basically built the new building right next to the existing building, and then demolish the building. So they went. And that overall duration was a little under three years. And on the next slide, Sean, if you can go to that. This is our project, where you can see, you know, because of the larger site. There's just more ability for the construction and the school to operate in parallel and at you know as you all know it was that was a key issue. In the choice of this option. Next slide. So, I think I want to actually come back to this and go to the next slide. I, I thought it would be helpful to talk a little bit about, or for you all to see at least. What's going on now so I yesterday I took all the current projects so not the projects the MSBA projects that have been closed out, but the ones that are still kind of on their books as open projects and I made a list of them. So on the left or the design build projects and on the right are the CM projects. You know I think what's interesting about this list is you can see, there's very little overlap between who is doing the CM projects which is in the column on the far right. And the design bid bill project so one point of overlap is Fontaine brothers who were actually the selected CM for the Wildwood project, and they actually operate in both, both project types, and are very likely to be interested in this project. Or unless whatever, but the design bid build it's a smaller list of contractors. There has not been a net zero project done as design bid build at this time which is probably going to change. And the other thing I think that's really interesting is that if you look at the design bid build. There are a whole bunch of TBDs. So what that means is those are projects in early stages where they have decided they're going design bid build, but they have not yet selected. And I think that's really interesting because it suggests that there is a trend right now towards design bid build in the entire MSBA portfolio of projects. So, again, I'm struggling with trying to get my screen to be the right size and I think I'm gonna what I'm actually going to do is leave the meeting and come back in because I just cannot seem to get the screen to be bigger. But let me, let me do that and I'll be right back okay. Nathan, you want to ask a question. I just wanted to note that, unfortunately, and I'm glad we're not making decisions today. Unfortunately, I have a hard stop in about 10 or 15 minutes, because I have a work obligation I could not move. Since you have to leave, do you, as Margaret is trying to pull back up her screen. Do you want to make any comments from your perspective on this, so that we don't miss that. Yeah. I think Margaret was just kind of getting to the, that point to kind of understand what the trend is at the moment. You know, certainly when, when I would expect that when, when things are getting, there was a lot of inflation in the construction market that there would be a tendency to try to capture that that lower initial cost that you get through design bid build. And I'm just curious as if Margaret has any sense or or Dennis by the sense of, of communities pursuing the kind of net zero piece, but also, because the net zero pieces one thing that may tend to tend to suggest the CM approach. I also wonder if, if having the designer and the designer be a construction manager in soon, you know, participating in the schematic part, and the schematic design and the, and the ongoing involvement through construction drawings or documents. Does that give us the ability to control cost in any way better. You know, from kind of a from a practical perspective. We're in a, we're in a construction market that is unusual that it's certainly outside of my personal experience and probably outside the personal experience of all the, all the folks who have that experience. I don't know, that's just some of the things I'm thinking about. So Margaret, I don't know what you heard but Jonathan has a hard stop so I just was encouraging him to, I mean he's leaving us in about eight minutes or seven minutes so. So he had that the two questions on. Did you hear both of his questions. Yeah, I didn't hear the first one I heard the second one. I'm just curious if, and I probably didn't articulate this very well but do you have any sense of whether or not in that list of CM projects, there are those containing the any net zero school. Oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah, there, there are several. Do we think anyone is currently trying to do net zero design bid bill. I'm sure we will as an industry as a, as a state. I don't, I'm curious if, are we going to be the trailblazer. Yeah, we will be the trailblazer. Okay. Yeah, actually I think, I think during the. So if we talk about net zero, right, I think, I think maybe if we just step back a bit. Is it that's challenging or more complicated net zero than traditional building that isn't trying to achieve net zero right. A lot of it is just making sure that your UI is really low. And that that's on the designer, right really more than anything else is making sure and and the owner as far as usage but. That's on the designer on making sure that your UI is really low and then, and then really what's your path to achieving that zero so for for us and I'll let Rick or Tim also chime in for us. You know having the PVs as part of the project. But again, we can talk about whether it's it will be part of the project but but do you bid that separately. There may be grants and other things that we may want to take advantage of and not do it through the GC or the CM. And then the other component really would be the geothermal aspect of it. Other than that, it truly is really and coming upon the designer to make sure that the building has the right insulation and has the right window wall ratio it has like all of those things so I don't know I know Tim is on a building committee ricks on a building committee. I can say that the elementary school that I'm in the building committee for it is designed to build. There is geothermal, it is net zero ready, but they are not going to own the PV. So, to take that money off of the project budget. They couldn't call it net zero so all of the components are there and will be assembled all under the contract of but they're all there as we're pretty confident that for that particular project. 149 is the way to go. Is that project all new or so is that on a. It's an all new building on a site with a pride, with an existing school that is being demolished as an early big package. Tim, what, who's the contractor. It has not been big yet it's swamps. Oh yeah, they had my school. So, you know I think this is really interesting to me. I mean I kind of, I agree with Donna. To me the complexity is the geothermal. Really, I mean I think they're the issue of the EU I is it's in a design build build situation it's going to put more pressure on the designer. And our clerk to make sure that it is being that the building envelope is being built built correctly, then you might have in a CM situation, but it's a geothermal piece I think and I don't. I think I have some approaches to how we would manage this I'm, I'm not recommending. CM, I don't think it's appropriate to recommend CM for this reason only I just want to make sure that you understand that that's where the complexity is, and that's what's different about this project is that there has. I'd like to add also though but the geothermal component. Much of it in the equipment that's connected to it is a trade contract or file submit anyway. Yeah, the relative handful of geotechnical contractors that either a CM or a DBB general contractor would have to avail themselves to are relatively the same. So, the other projects complex, and frankly there are CMs that do a poor job with complex projects and there are general contractors that do a good job with complex projects so it's kind of hard to pin one on a team type. We've had, I've had CMs do a great job all the way through with neat lead reporting and sustainability, and others that approach it more like a general contractor used to. So it's really some and sometimes you can't tell until they're on on the team and doing it. Yeah, agree. Sean. Okay, Sean. Yeah, so one other reason why the previous building committee chose CM was MSBA offered additional reimbursement at that time. And it seems like they don't do that anymore and is there any insight why they stopped offering that it was an extra full percentage point which again was sort of attractive to the committee and and made the, you know, offset the additional cost to some extent. Any idea why they pulled that out. Well, I think it was for two reasons. First of all the MSBA doesn't, they, they would prefer that everything be designed to build because they feel as though that is generally a lower contract price. And I think also, as you could see, it's not districts don't need it to have it as an incentive anymore a lot of districts feel more comfortable with it. So I think it was for both of those reasons. Yeah, I think just just to add to that. CM, you know, just became enacted until on 20 2004. And there was a lot of conversation about really in the end there's savings and it costs less because of contingent anyway. And MSBA has said that they're not seeing the cost savings that everyone talked about based on their completed projects and so, as Margaret said that 1% was an incentive originally thinking that it was still going to save money. But in the end, the, the answer is there really isn't. There really isn't much savings or any savings and the change orders are the change orders and I just, I just want to really make that clear so there is an error omission on the contract documents right if there's scope missed on the contract documents. There was a change order. So it would be a change order whether it was heartbeat, or if it was CM. So, I'm trying to think about good scope item, you know, but if we missed something on the drawings, which were not perfect, but the change order, if it wasn't on the drawings, they, the contractor or CM is, is rightfully entitled to that additional money. A lot of times what we find with the CMs is even though it's on the job. If the scope is on the drawings, the CM will say oh well we missed that. Oops, sorry, we're going to pull that from our CM contingency, where when it's a hard bid we can go back to the contractor and say no, it's right here. You own it, and they just have to pay for it. So, so there is a little difference. Build out there and that's actually, I mean that's the classic buyout CM contingency items, which are actually understandable. And I'm not saying this to try to torpedo CMR but in my role on a building committee on building committees with multiple CMR projects in my town, and also at the NISCO, what I'm finding myself arguing more and more. And what's a little more frustrated are the things that are on the drawings are in the specifications, and you find out that during the CMs buyout, the person they signed with deleted that from their scope. So it's, it's an item that in a, in a hard bid, if it's on the drawings and the specs you own it. But if it's not, then you're talking about, well okay well they said they weren't going to do that part and we're, we're arguing about who's fixing the floor cracks before the file sub bid resilient floor guy comes in and puts his floor down. And the other thing that you see him contingency money, you know my personal view is. Okay, it's, it's the CM's money does spend, as long as the owner agrees. I personally think of it as, it's the owner's money until they pay it out, because the owner gets everything back that's not spent. Yeah, and you know the other thing about Sam contingency, I do think, and we've run into this recently with projects where there was like a lot of, you know, what's I don't know what that game is with the, the cups and the ball and, and the kind of, they kind of done this like they took something out over here and forgot and then it's like oh we want that out of Sam contingency. We don't let them do that. Like, you know you own that you bought. But one thing that I think the CM contingency is really useful for is if you have to accelerate the project for some reason. So actually now that I'm back in the functioning able to see you all is everything else I just want to sort of pull up this one slide and talk about this briefly. Yeah, I agree that I don't screw this up again. Margaret Mary had her hand up as well. Well, while she's pulling it up I'll just mention yeah, Mary, I agree with a lot of what Rick said. I think either way we go, whether it's design build or CMR the important thing is to have strict qualifications when we do the pre call of the contractors and about subs. The only benefit that I've been seeing to see them are lately is the long lead times we're able to buy the materials while we're still designing because, you know lead times are just ridiculous right now. Yeah. I think that I totally agree. You know one of the things that we're seeing is that if you have a situation any of these situations where there are things which are likely to impact the schedule for the project because stuff isn't available. Or something needs to be accelerated the CM process does provide flexibility for that because you can, they can buy stuff on their own, and they can use the CM contingency to do to accelerate the schedule so if you were that wholeheartedly a project in Springfield, the CM bought the steel deck, because we had inkling that that was going to be a problem, and he bought the deck and told the people that this steel would normally carry that that they will be buying using this deck. So we're on the list for the deck. That said, both our CMR and our DBB projects are all hamstrung with electrical switch gear delivery, which is blind to the delivery method. And the basic way out of that is to buy it under 30B, like we've done with generators, if it's a DBB project. So, you could be hit with material delays, both on both ways that you really hate to say that COVID's giving people a lot of cover. You really can't argue about there's nothing to do with, but having the flexibility to accelerate work because they built something into the budget. That's a that's a is a benefit. But once you commit to spending money on additional slab placement so they could accelerate a portion of the job, and then the CM doesn't use doesn't take advantage of the $30,000 they spent for that and the stairs still don't come. That's a little frustrating. Mary. Yeah. Yes. So basically, that's a great option with 30B for the generators and things. We have no idea of what's going to be delayed next. Right now it's Dr. Lyon pipe, because all the pig iron comes from Poland. So you never know it used to be you knew the steel in the switch here now it's just a whole new ball game. Yeah, very unpredictable. So, that was a lot to go through. I hope that it answered some of the questions people have had about this. I don't. Kathy, I don't know whether you want to take I don't know if we've got a do we still have a quorum I think we have a quorum. I don't want to take a vote on this or move it to the next meeting. So we want to call and we're not going to take a vote on it Margaret because we're, we're in this. We're in a transition area on on can we meet entirely, you know, so. And so, and we're missing some people but I think if we, if people have time to think about it to come in. My understanding is from CMR we need to decide soon because of that long time timeline if we wanted to go CMR. So, if we're going to do that we got to make a decision on it but I think people should members should come back, having thought this through and Rupert's hand is up. We should all be asking any questions that we can think of right now to help you form that so Rupert. Thank you. I apologize if I missed this I had to take a phone call in terms of complexity. The concern that I have is less the geothermal though I understand that's got a lot of engineering involved but just dealing with the site and the groundwater and the drainage strikes me as something that has a lot of unknowns and a lot of complexity and may not be a filed Do you have any comments. So, I, you know, Donna and Rick, I, I think aims very you said had quite complicated site and is designed been billed is that right is that a good example to talk about. I think aims very Ruber, their hurled Wyman school as well that was a hard hard bid, and both of those had early site packages. It is our responsibility, whether it's DBB or or CM to have as much information as we possibly can on the site. So, our recommendation on this regardless is to. Do a lot of testing, we recognize its money but it's money well spent to be able to have a better understanding of what's going on underneath the ground, so that we can design to it and prepare for it. And a lot of times what we'll do is we will give a certain level of depth and say okay contractor you're responsible for removing X amount of feet of dirt, and that would be regardless of CM or hard bid. We saw the joke that we say it's, it's really called CM at risk and we we tend to say it's CM at very little risk because they're going to say well it's what you told us to do. And that's true, because that, you know where we're saying you own, you know the dirt to 10 feet below and you're going to excavate it and if it's. It has a material that you own it if it's loan or or soil that is not usable, you know you need to plan for that so it's it's really what is is as much information as we possibly can to know about an advance so that we can have a as good of an understanding of the scope that's required so the type of soil, how much needs to be removed, how far down do you need to go, and then how we count can we reuse it, does it have to be moved so. So Donna, can I say this in a really abbreviated way. If you're going to go design build build, you want to invest the money in the site exploration before you go to bed. So we would recommend that, regardless, especially on this site. And again the more information we know, even if it's a CM more informed we are so if you have a ceiling I'm just going to say 100 million. You know, we need to know how much that site's going to cost it's not going to help us for the CM to find out later, if we have earmarked all of the contingency money right so it really is in everyone's best interest to do as much to diligence on the site as possible. Yeah, that's the nugget. So I see Phoebe's hand is up. Yeah, thanks. I'm off the topic that we're talking about, but I just want to try to get a little bit more clarity in my own mind. So, regardless of whether we go, CM, or design bid build. If we, if we think there's a possibility for other funding methods, ie grants or something like that, that piece comes out of the scope of work for the CM or for the DBB contractor was I correct in hearing you say that. Okay. Now the only thing I mentioned Phoebe would be for the offsite traffic. Yeah. Okay, I thought you had said that for the solar. Alright. Well, for the solar, if there are grants and it makes sense, we could, we could do that as well. So what we do need to do is explore all of the grants that are available. And, you know, maximize those and part of the conversation is with MSBA and what can the town use for third party incentives or rebates that would not impact your share or MSBA shares part of the project. Okay. Thank you. And did you have something you want to say. No, it's just accidentally unmuted. So I'm looking at the time we have about 14 minutes left. And a couple of things we wanted to do so. We'll bring this back next at the next meeting. This issue to close the conversation. We do need to pick a date for the school visits. And I had five folks participate in the dill poll. So it, and it looks like the three dates that work for the most of them are the 26th of July, the 27th and August 1st. I know that Mike had a preference for the 27th, but I also didn't see either Allison or Tammy participate so Allison and Tammy if we, if it landed on the 27th, we might you be able to join I thought you have all the folks. You might be the most interested in seeing other schools, or maybe you have other commitments I just want to confirm. Margaret, just so you had three dates are viable 26 27 and first on. Yeah, Mike. And so people remember where it's three schools and we figured out that we can see all three on the one day, and Paul at one point and he can say what this said, we might be able to move the van so it wouldn't be everyone having to drive out there by themselves, or we can certainly carpool. So it's a question of the 26 27th and August 1st. I guess what I would say is the 27 would probably be the best date, however, in the midst of trying to see what I can move around for that. How about you. I know that August 1 would be the easiest but that doesn't mean I couldn't make something else work. Okay. Okay, so let me. I think Mike was also good for the first. Tammy with the, with the first. Okay, so then let's, let's go with the 27. And if other folks who are on the committee want to join we'll figure out what the capacity of the buses and will make will auction off seats so. All right. So what is left leave wanting to leave room for public comment I don't think we're going to get to the sustainability rating system today, but I do we just want to pull up Dennis goes most recent invoice, which we should look at and vote on. And then we would have a few minutes for public comment. So, here we go. Yes. I can so I think it means that everyone can. Okay, so I think just very quickly. So they're the amount they're billing for it right is right here at the 33 335. What that means is that this feasibility line item, which is getting us to the PSR is complete. There's no other invoicing as part of this. So, this is just a summary. This is where I sign and then they also have a. There's their summary invoice so that's it. It's kind of simple to look at if someone wants to make a motion. I think it's a motion that we approve the. What month invoice, the invoice, the. June 30, June 30 invoice. Second. And so I need to. Margaret, if you can take that down so I can see. So I'm going to do a roll call vote. Tammy. Yes. Yes. Rupert. Yes. Ben. Yes. Allison. Yes. Paul. Yes. Phoebe. Yes. Alicia. Yes. And Kathy is a yes. So it is anonymous with three absent. Margaret, when you tell me the boats. I'm sorry. I forgot to ask one question, Donna, when you said you do as much early as possible on exploration on the site. You are going to be. I'll ask as a question. Are you going to be. With the conservation commission going out and doing. Redoing the wetland mapping. A flat, a flagging, whatever we call it. So to. And then. And with that, do you also. Part of the. The. Site design. Was moving a wetland doing an exchange of. Well, that all be happening this summer. So it's a kind of a question of. Do we. At the point. Through schematic design that would have to be signed off on before we could be saying now we can build just the way you're playing. So just what's the timing on that. Yeah. Well. The conservation commission process is, is long. And so the first part. Is to, you know, do. An and rad, which really is determining the applicability of the scope. And so we'll be having initial conversations with them, making sure. As we move along the process that. They're in agreement that we, we understand what all the boundaries are, not just for wetlands, but also the. The flood prone area and all of that. Conservation commission will typically not. Vote to approve our site design. Until much later in the process. Because they, we have to have our site. Designed enough for them to agree to. But in concept, we would be saying, okay, here's what we're thinking of doing. Are we in agreement, making sure that. That we have their buy in. Before we get too far down the process, but they will issue an order of, they'll approve. The site. And issue an order of conditions much later in the process, typically around 60%. CDs. But we do want their buy in now to understand a lot of things. And we do want their buy in now to understand a lot of the initial. Assumptions that we're making and that. They're in agreement with. Whether it's moving wetlands or, or replicating wetlands. And the purpose of the anrad, which is. Ridiculous acronym for. Abbreviated notice of resource area of delimitation is basically just to get an agreement about where the boundary is. That's why you do it. So all the initial testing, Kathy, more would be, so we're going to do that. There's going to be a lot of. Activities that are going to occur simultaneously. But we definitely are going to want to. Do a lot more. Geotechnical explorations. And understanding the borings and, and all of that. And then the other thing is, if we do go with. Geothermal ground source. The other component there would be to get a test well. And the ground as soon as possible as well. So, so that too would occur. Simultaneously. Okay. Thank you. I didn't, I just was. So that that's happening behind the scenes. Okay. So you'll be bringing that information to us. Great. Okay. And we will, you know, when we do go before conservation commission, whether it's preliminary or otherwise we do you, you, the town or the building committee are the proponent. So you, you will be. Present at those meetings. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Does anyone have any other comments, questions? Just so that to review that schedule, Sean has his hand up. We're meeting again in two weeks, that's the 29th of July. And you've got the tentative agenda in terms of pieces, but that is the first draft. So we will get be getting an agenda out, Sean. My recollection from going for the lead certification was that there were some costs associated with it. And I'm just wondering if we're building a net zero building and all the requirements that go along with our bylaw, does it still make sense to pursue the lead certification. And if there's still additional reimbursement from MSBA for it. So, when you say additional expense first let me just say, whether it's lead or chips which we didn't get to today. It is a requirement by MSBA and MSBA is expecting any project to at minimum be certified at one for one of those. To get the additional reimbursement from MSBA. Right now, all they ask is that your 20% energy savings over code they don't care if you're certified or platinum. If I usually does an example, they don't care they they their focus is more on energy conservation. As far as cost is concerned the actual cost for you being lead certified, and then for it to be verified is really not a lot of money as far as what what you pay lead or or New England chips. It's everything that goes into it which is where the real cost is. Thank you. And Donna there's it's a 2% we get by it. So it's real money shown when you were asking that money is still in the MSBA form. Yeah, I get that I'm, it seems like we're going beyond that so again that's where that question. Yeah, again, MSBA does not care if you're platinum or if you're certified. And as long as you achieve the energy savings you get the 2% because and we'll get into the whole. What, what does lead really mean some some projects just physically cannot get there because of the location of the site. So, yeah, it's, there's more to it than, than what seems intuitive, believe it or not. Okay, so I'm going to, if there are no other comments, I'm going to open it for public comments, and, and also to remind everyone that we will get a more a better understanding of what leads is what tips is and issues like is on the agenda for 2 weeks from now. So, public comments, if anyone would like to make a comment, please raise your hand. I've brought Maria Kapikian. Okay. Thank you. Quick question for Donna at the net zero meeting, you had mentioned that there's this up to even an eight week scheduling delay to do the test well but I want to confirm that you are definitely planning on doing the test well for geothermal. This summer, regardless of any other decisions that that is in the works. And the other thing is to make a comment on any meetings or subgroup meetings that might happen about design, I'd like to encourage the committee to have all of those meetings open to members of the public. There's a lot of educators in town that don't teach at either Fort River or Wildwood might not even teach at other schools in our district, but teach elsewhere and there's a lot of other folks that might have ideas for design that could be valuable to hear. It's kind of like, you know, you don't know what you don't know. So, I would like to encourage you to invite people into share ideas and to give some reflections about things that you might choose to do with design and to make sure that you have a broad perspective available to you. Thank you. Thank you, Maria. I have to get off to another meeting. Okay, so I think I'm not seeing any other public comments. So I think we can adjourn the meeting at if I'm not seeing any hand other hands up just double checking with my new eyes. I don't see any hands up. I don't see any. So it is 10 o'clock. I as chair I'm going to adjourn the meeting and I want to remind people, I'll send everybody links, but all the net zero information that we've been seeing is posted, and I'll send links to the full committee and we will be bringing that discussion on geothermal and the HVAC. We have to make a decision will be bringing it to the full committee. So that we haven't got a recommendation yet but we, we will. So I want to thank everyone and I want to thank the guests, Mary, and where, where is he, he may have, and Bob for joining us today and thank you to nisco team. I look forward to seeing everyone and to visiting schools. Bye. We are adjourned.