 Good afternoon. Welcome to an exchange for media conversation today. This Friday we talked to someone who really doesn't need an introduction in the Indian media and broadcast industry. He's somebody who's seen it all, done it all. He was also exchange for media's first impact person of the year, 16 years back. He's somebody we're doing a conversation because it's contextual to his book that he's just written and published. Let me welcome Mr. Peter Mukherjee who's an author, is a former CEO of Star India and built Star India to a level from where it could take a leap. So welcome Peter. Today we're talking to you about your book, Starstruck. So clearly for our viewers, if they haven't picked up the book, they can. It's called Peter Mukherjee's writing Star Trek, Confections of a TV Executive. First of all, Peter, let me start by asking you how have been the last 12 months for you both personally and professionally? Well, Anurag, before I say anything, let me just first of all do what I really want to do. It is to say thank you very much for having me here, giving me an opportunity to talk to you and to talk to all of your, you know, your followers. And it is really a pleasure to be able to be back on exchange for media after such a such a long time. And it is wonderful, a great feeling that I've that I'm experiencing. So thank you for that. Your question was how have the last 12 months been? Well, you know, to be honest with you, the last 12 months have been remarkable. You know, I, in many ways, it's been very busy writing and finishing and getting all the, you know, the tidying up that's required before a book gets published. But the people at Westland, and have been fantastic, DP in particular, and Shweta at the marketing end of the spectrum have been absolutely fabulous. And of course, without their help and inputs, you know, the book would not have been, you know, the way it is today would have been a lot less credible, I think. I think they've really put a lot of time and effort into it. The last 12 months from my point of view have been hectic, partly because of the book, but also despite the, the, you know, the lockdown that's everyone's experience. It really has been a time for introspection to be able to kind of realize the value of, of, you know, being at home, despite being in a in a lockdown mode. And for me, it's been particularly so because, you know, it's been a, it's been a cathartic experience for me, I've been able to catch up with some friends of mine in the recent past, once the lockdown has kind of eased up. But apart from all of that, it's been a time for, as I said, introspection, but also a lot of fresh thinking. And, and I think some of that is reflected in the, in the sort of latter part of the book as well. Fantastic. Peter, let me go back to, you know, you studied business management, right. Of course, you went to do school you went to Hartford College in London. And, you know, let's come straight to the book when you talk of confection of a TV executive. In your book you write that, you know, when you took a star TV, you were given a team of very young relatively inexperienced executives. And you write in the book that we were operating with a Johnny English approach. And basically you were saying that, you know, you had no fear, you had no danger, you knew nothing. So give us a sense of what do you mean when you say that elaborate on it. Well, let me tell you, I think first of all, just to kind of rephrase the given a team I don't think I was given much of a team to be honest when I got here there were a couple of people. And there were excellent people actually in my team of things at the time one of course was Yash Khanna one was Raj Kama, and Raj Nayak, Megha Tata, then she was Monica. And, you know, literally what I would call a fairly motley crew. So, you know, the early days was really spent in terms of trying to make them and build that team out as far as possible, build it out with with credible people passionate people people who are gutsy who were daring. And it wasn't necessarily all about, you know, somebody who had to have a business management degree or an MBA or anything the sort of course they had to be educated, and they had to be had to have a good way with all to life had to be people who played by the rules, and, and were really, really hardworking. And, you know, for them it was time was not something that they would necessarily be looking at, you know, on a daily basis they were just committed to what they had to do and I think that is what was the sort of basic composition of, of, of the team. But I think, you know, the second part or what you said, which is to kind of bringing a set of people together at a point in time was, you know, crucial because we were quite honestly you know we were a foreign company. We were in English as a language as a service. We had competitors who were in Hindi and, and you know for us it was nothing but an uphill struggle. So when, when viewers today watch some of the star channels, many of them, I think we'll probably forget if they knew at all what it was like in the very early days of this business, and how it was at that point transformed. It was done with, with extraordinary amount of hard work by the people that, you know, were there the company at the time, and then, and following that when I, you know, when I was appointed as chief executive. Then I think, you know, we were able to kind of really put the finishing touches to that, to that team and expanded in different directions in programming distribution, and so on and so on and so we'll talk about that later. Peter, one of the chapters, the second chapter in the book is changing people is better than changing people. And really the media business is about people. So why don't you give us a glimpse of what's in the chapter and what are you trying to say. You know, that's a, that's a quote which I've credited to Larry Summers, who used to be the head of Harvard Business School and an eminent politician in the United States many years ago. But it, I heard that I heard him say this at a conference and he was, you know, it was a fascinating term which I'd never heard before so I, in the coffee break I went and, you know, spend five minutes trying to get his attention and have a chat with him about it. And really what occurred to me at that point was that, you know, changing people is better than changing people now you can read it any which way you'd like and that's what makes it an interesting phrase, right. And for us, and you know it was not about changing people's habits, it was about changing people if they were not, you know, cut out for a particular task at hand. And I think that's something that we did right in the very beginning and then once we put that team together, then it remained pretty much untouched and unscathed, all the way through till, till the time that I actually left in, you know, in the late 2000s. But I think the, that particular chapter is very much about, you know, people skills how to manage people how to kind of make sure you get to get the best out of them. And I think obviously you've got to read the book in its entirety to be able to get a sense of, you know, the today, the past, and hopefully a little bit about what's likely to come up in the future. Now, in the forward, you talk about success and failures are part of life. And while success is good, I believe failure is great. And you quote Rupert Murdoch there and he said, Rupert Murdoch once told you, don't ever miss the opportunity to make the most of a crisis. And you then go on to find James, a new scope for giving you the opportunity to be able to take star at that point and make something out of star India's business. So, if you had to say, what was the high point of your innings at star India, what would that be? You know, it's a very tough question. There were lots of highs and there were, there were, you know, a few lows as well, but I think there were lots of highs and it would be very hard to kind of pinpoint one, one, you know, unique high point but I think if I was pushed to the wall on that one. I would have to say that, you know, the day we hit 50 out of 50 programs in the top listings of Hindi general entertainment was certainly has to be for me, you know, a particular, particularly, you know, memorable milestone moment. I think it was, I would go as far as saying it was probably a life changing moment, not just for me but for all the people that worked at star at the time. Because none of this happens with, you know, it's not an individual effort. This is entirely about teamwork. And whosoever is the person that happens to be, you know, leading that team or leading one of the teams that is responsible for making things happen there. I think it's, it's, it's a great moment in that person's life. And for me, that was without doubt, I think, you know, you know, 50 out of 50 hasn't happened before. Hasn't happened since, since, and I would say, you know, unlikely to happen for quite some time yet because you know the market has changed the dynamics are different. And so, you know, high point wise, yeah, 50 out of 50 without doubt. Okay, what would you say about, you know, you wrote in Amitabh Bachchan for KBC. And you know, that was itself a very big success. You know, you know, you suddenly the channel look started looking good. The channel had a big driver, and you started taking big bets. I remember the week you hit 50 out of 50, I know, we did a piece on exchange of media, so on and so forth. But to me, the con vane ka karod pati, and the way it spanned out on start after some other not so successful starts was also a very big milestone. Would you agree? Yes, of course, look, I think, you know, it was a very big milestone without doubt. But I think what was significant for us at the time was not just KBC I think KBC was certainly a, you know, one of the main milestones or major milestones in that journey. But it was also about, you know, our programming team feeling confident with the lineup of programming that they had, which was following KBC in order to be able to then, you know, continue that. You know, the opportunity that the battering ram of KBC provided to the other shows that followed. And had it not been KBC, maybe the others wouldn't have performed as well. Right. And certainly if it wasn't a combination of all of the shows in prime time that delivered that 50 out of 50, then I think, you know, the overall performance of the channel would have been as astounding for us and for the marketplace as it was. So without doubt, I think, you know, the placing of bets is something I think one has to do on a regular basis. You don't really think about it too much when you're at the table, so to speak. And, you know, you go forward with the best intent and you always put your best foot forward. So we were hoping that it would work. We had no idea that it would or it wouldn't. As you say, we had experimented with a variety of things before that. My predecessor, Mr. Rathikanth Basu, who had initiated this entire move into what we used to call localization at the time. And as part of that exercise, he had, you know, introduced Hindi programming, which he could get had relatively short notice because, you know, programs take time to produce and put together and get on air. So he was able to get his hands on some of the content that was available in the marketplace, not a great deal, but we got some. Some of it, you know, was reasonable success. Some was not so successful, but overall, our push into localization started at that point. I was fortunate that some of those experimental aspects had been taken care of prior to my, you know, sitting on the saddle. And had it not been for that, maybe I would have felt the same amount of pressure that, you know, my predecessor felt in terms of going down the route of trying dubbing, trying sort of patch together content that came from here and there and everywhere and not having a clear cut kind of strategy in place to say, look, now we can go ahead and do, you know, 100% Hindi content. We were restricted from a legal point of view. We had restrictions from our, you know, from our partners. And I think all of those things had to be taken into account. And in many ways, as I say, I think I was very fortunate that some of those had already been done before I got there, so that I didn't have to go through those tunnels myself. I was out in the open, we were able to play. And we had, you know, all the resources at our disposal at that point, we weren't restricted in any particular way. So I think big bets, possibly, but you know, as I say, those are things you do on a daily basis. And you know, you don't stop, because you have to place a big bet. I think, I think placing big bets is, you know, is an exciting part of the role. Yeah, and I'll take some of the chapters. I, you know, I want the viewers and readers to kind of get a glimpse in the book. So I'm sticking to the book. In the chapter eight on the book, you talk about winners have parties, losers have meetings. And you, of course, had to look back to Gary Davie. And you talk about, you know, how on a lazy day in March 1999, you were lounging about at your home with your brother, Gotham. And why don't you tell that story? Well, it's a, it's a lovely story and it kind of gets takes me down memory lane very nicely because it, it was a Sunday afternoon and I was sitting there having had my Sunday preferred lunch, which was, you know, some nice Bengali cuisine of fish and fish and some kind of rice. And, you know, my, my, my, we didn't have mobiles or that particular point in time and, or maybe we did but my, one of my phones rang and I remember answering it and there was Gary on the phone and he said, because we got a minute, can I speak to you. I said, yeah, of course. And, and he went on to tell me that look he had a, he had something in mind which he wanted me to do and would I would I consider doing it and it was a question which this is what we have in mind is what we want to do where you are you up for it. And really it was a question of, you know, one of my favorite things is the Pope Catholic because it, you know the answer to that is a, is a resounding yes. And without, without, you know, battering an eyelid or, you know, missing a heartbeat. I said, I was going to tell him then I said look hold on I'll call you back. Just to kind of get my breath and make sure that I wasn't kind of in some form of cuckoo land and hearing things so I had to kind of sit down. I had to go and have a quick chat with my brother go to him and say look this is the call I just had. And I better call him back right now because he'd be waiting for my response so. So I called him back and of course, as I say it was a resounding yes and for me that was a, you know, I think an exciting moment but also incredibly frightening, because it was a business that was really in a fair amount of trouble. And as, as, you know, as the channel was that particular point in time, you know, we had tried numerous things wasn't working. We were not sure whether the levels of investment would continue. You know, we were on shaky ground put it that way. And, and to take on a business at that point was always going to be a challenge and be a risk. But you know, I think we were all wired differently in those days so we say absolutely yes definitely let's go for it. I'm telling Gary look I'm going to need an awful lot of help from you. And somewhere in that conversation you remember I remember him telling me that winners have parties losers have meetings. And for me that has always stuck. And I've used the time and again. And I think it kind of resonates with with people a fair amount even today. In the chapter six. You know you quote Ruben Murdoch and you say when you are a catalyst for change, you make enemies. And I'm proud of the ones that one I've got this is a quote from Ruben Murdoch. Now, give us a sense of this chapter and what you say in this chapter. Well, you know, the quote, in a way sums up a lot of what's in it. And as you're progressing into into a sort of territory where you are taking on your competitors in in a meaningful kind of way. Then you do run up against people who, you know, want to try and slow you down or pull you down and, and I think in India we have a in many cases we have a bit of a crab mentality so if you see somebody doing well you tend to kind of rather than give that person a helping pull them up, you know, you tend to kind of drag them down and I think I got a sense that that some of that was happening to us in different quarters and I think largely because we were a foreign company. And, and you know, Rupert, all his, you know, for all his sins as, you know, was, was a was a maverick in, in lots of parts of the world. And, and I think some of the some of our, you know, competitors of that particular point of diamond in there were, were a bit nervous of what he might, what he might do whether he would get into print, whether he would do things with, you know, with television and to be, you know, introducing pay services, direct to home, all of those things were kind of only on the agenda. But from a competitor point of view we were, you know, in a situation where we did have a fair amount of stress that we needed to deal with in addition to the regular day to day management of a company so a fair amount of management time in terms of number of hours in the day was gobbled up in, in really addressing those kinds of issues, which I think is a bit sad because had we had a bit more time to be able to, you know, not have to worry about those kind of issues then, you know, maybe things would have been even better for us. Now, let me ask you two, three questions which are a little broader than your book and then we'll come back to the book again. One is today, Star India is part of Disney, right? Also the environment is changed, OTT has become the biggest driver of content consumption and also content creation, right? So, tell me, when you see Star India from outside or Disney India if I may call, what is it that you see? Well, you know, sadly, I've got to say this and be candid about it because I actually don't watch very much, you know, Star channels currently. The ones I really like are, you know, are not necessarily available everywhere and I think the combination that Star and Disney has is extremely powerful, both in terms of content, in terms of brand, in terms of, you know, following and the services that they offer are extraordinary. And I see no reason why they should not be, you know, complete market leaders and, you know, in time to come. What level of service and what area of service they decide to kind of venture into, whether it's just sticking with OTT or whether it's going into a whole range of other things is something that time will tell. But I also happen to believe that, you know, there are some other big players in the market in the overall universe at the moment, not just in India. And some of these people are, have got deep pockets and it's, you know, quite likely that in the next, perhaps 12, maybe 18 months, you wouldn't be surprising if, you know, companies like Disney Star are, you know, potential targets for some of the even bigger players, like Apple and Google and Facebook and so on. And I think that's something that they need to be thinking about, I would think. In fact, it is just to accept your thought and build on it when Murdoch decided to sell it and he made the first announcement. He basically said to be able to deal with Facebook, Google and Amazon. It would be necessary to do this Disney time or, you know, partnership or sell out whatever you want to call it. And he basically echoed your line of thought saying to be able to take on these bigger players. We need to be together with other players and we need to have size and scale to be able to take them on. So clearly, what you're saying is on, I'm sure everyone's mind and you know, every media executive thinks about this all the time. I also want to ask you, post you left Star, Star India did well, calling to sports programming. Now what do you think about sports programming? It is said that Disney, the speculation that Disney is not very keen on sports programming in India. I'm sorry, I can't really comment on that. I think, you know, sports is a fundamental part of television viewing in this country, whether it's cricket or whether it's, you know, people who love motor racing or, you know, Premier League football and other other sort of events that happen from time to time, tennis, the Grand Slams, etc. And, you know, I think for anybody to suggest that Disney is not committed to sports in India would be, I think would either they know an awful lot. And they know something that, you know, the rest of us don't all that it is, you know, it's inaccurate. I think they are totally committed to it. You know, as a viewer, I think it's terrific that, you know, one gets such a wide array of sports content. You know, when I was a star many years ago now, but, you know, I happen to be on the board of ESPN Star Sports. And, you know, it was, it was no surprise really that, you know, at one point, the two companies parted ways and Star Sports became independent of ESPN and ESPN became independent of Star. And at that point, you know, again, it was not a surprise when the Disney takeover of Star happened that sports was going to become a key feature because Star had invested a heck of a lot of money in cricket, which either needed to recover, but also they needed to kind of, you know, present to Disney a fairly well-dressed bride. And I think that's what happened. There was general entertainment and there was sport, which was, you know, buttressed by enormous amount of valuable cricket, which Disney had but no choice to take on board. And so given the commitments that, you know, Star would have to the sports bodies that control that particular sport, then I think, you know, Disney is definitely committed to sports in India for the future. I doubt it. I doubt if they have any second thoughts about it at the moment. And Peter, I'm asking you a hypothetical question. If you were to ask to run a OTT company, a new media company, a content company, would you still be interested in running something like that? Because you like building things, you like making bets, you like, you know, creating teams, you like making an impact. And you still have a lot left in you. And, you know, when one reads the book, it gives the sense that you keep a watch on what's happening around and have a very nuanced point of view. So would you consider building another OTT media content, content tech play, whatever you want to call it, a new age media platform? Well, it's, you know, it thoughts cross your mind from time to time and conversations happen. But I think running one of these companies is not something that is, you know, as appealing to me today as, you know, it was when I had the opportunity to run Star. For a variety of reasons, and I won't go into all of them, but I think suffice to say that, you know, I think you need, again, you need to place your bet on which of these companies you would want to be part of. And, and you are again with that you've looked at it in a different way it's not about, you know, the brand today but it's really what you can take and change and turn that brand into in, you know, in a short space of time. How are you going to kind of make sure that viewers are resonating with the content that you're putting out. You know, I, I'm a great believer that I think, you know, content regulation for OTT platforms is something that should happen. Now I'd be very unpopular by, you know, amongst a lot of people for me saying that but I think that in a marketplace like India where there is, where there are diverse issues at at work and at play. I think not having any, any regulatory environment for OTT content is is risky and dangerous for the industry. And I think therefore until such time as we are a more mature marketplace. I think we need to have that level of, you know, controlling and engagement by by a regulator. Okay. And Peter, I will get back to your book in the chapter 14, you say optimism pessimism fuck that we're going to make it happen as God is my bloody witness. I'm help bench on making it work. You quote quote Elon Musk, this is something that Elon Musk said, and you go on to say in the chapter that you would knew that we wouldn't get a winner every day that the show was on and you're talking about the programming that you brought in, but even if we had a winner every so often, the channel would lift up. I cannot think of any other chief executive other than perhaps Richard Branson a virgin, or Elon Musk or Tesla, who could take such a significant decision in such a flash. And again, in the chapter you talk about how Robert was seemed to be slow in taking decisions, and so on and so forth in the present was pretty unpopular about that. So give us a sense of what's in the chapter. You know, we talked about placing big bets earlier. And part of this has got a reflection on that. And I've used example Richard Branson and Elon Musk, who are both, you know, frontline warriors in this entire space. And as is as is Rupa in many ways, because, you know, at a time when he was being criticized for for not having, you know, sufficient amount of investments in new media. You know, he, he sent one of his executives into into Bangalore and Bombay and Delhi and so on and, you know, started to buy into internet companies one of those happened to be in there. And India was indy a and you know, the volume of investments that happened and the speed with which that happened at that time was extraordinary. Very little of it actually worked. But it was important that it was seen to be we was, you know, it was seen to be being done, and it was important that at that particular point in time, those investments were being made so that there was, you know, a level of information being generated which suggested the new scope and star were very much involved in looking at new media. And I think new media for a lot of people at that time was was really anything which had a dot com attached to it. So today it's quite different. So I think if you're talking about the likes of Richard Branson and Elon Musk and, and Rupert Murdo I think they very much are part and parcel of the same mold in different eras. So today, you know, Richard Branson was yesterday and Rupert bless him was, you know, perhaps day before yesterday and so from that point of view. You know they are, you know, literally chips off the old block they are the same. They are in many ways they're thinking their view on, on how to kind of look at a business how to make it grow, consider consumer behavior patterns is are all pretty much the same. Okay, fantastic. Peter also, right at the start you talked about, you know, the leaders are the team that you had you had right now if you talk about Rajnath Kamath you talked about Miss Tata. You know, when you look at star India that you nurtured a lot of people who are part of your core team have gone on to build something valuable post their students in star. Whether you look at a rise night, who successfully turned around colors and built it into the power house it is, of course, you know, Rajesh Kamath, who used to be a marketing manager and I used to meet him when I used to come and meet you at start ran colors before. Right. And then you look at Samir he continues to be doing well he's doing well at applause. Right. You look at Miss Tata she's running discovery, so on and so forth so long. You look at Tarun Katyal and I can give you many others, you know, who worked with you, or what in your team they've gone on to do so well. And why do you think that has happened, while Zee is an institution in the television business in its own right and has produced leaders, you know, star has produced professional managers and outstanding creators. So, why do you think that happened. Well, I think it's, you know, as a company we were very fortunate that we had a really good set of people who were, you know, with us at the time, obviously they were hired for all the right reasons in that some, you know, somewhere within their, within their construct. There was, you know, a sense that all of these people will, you know, a they are great performers. They are like, you know, precious gems. They they, they need to be groomed to the extent where their skills are, you know, enabled to flourish. And it's very hard to kind of contain people of that caliber to be, you know, and kept from performing at their best. So, you know, whether it is mega, whether it's Tarun, whether it's Samir, you know, Sumantro, Sumo, Raj Nayak, Rajesh Kamat, you know, these are all, you know, absolute fantastic stallions, right. And in a context of a, of a chariot race like, you know, we've, as a movie, it's the ability for an organization to be able to harness the, you know, to harness the skills that exist in amongst these people to be able to then, you know, take it to its extreme. Now, why other organizations have not been able to, you know, do that, I think lies in the initial hiring stage. I don't think many of them had hired the right people to begin with, you know, and we were very fortunate that we took pains over hiring the right people, grooming them, leaving them alone, letting them perform, letting them kind of use their own intelligence to really bring about the change that we were looking for, and giving them, you know, a platform to succeed. And that's one of the beauties of the company that I used to work for, Newscore. And I think there was, you know, without doubt, I think a unique, without kind of, you know, looking over their shoulder every two minutes. So to give them the tools and to allow them to perform. And, you know, you know, and one of the things that I remember having written in the book is that, you know, at Newscorp and also at Star, you know, one didn't get fired for taking a wrong decision. And very often, you only go fired if you didn't take a decision. And I think there's a big difference in the way Star at that time used to function to some of the other companies in the organization in the industry at that particular point in time. Where, you know, if you took a wrong decision, you were worried because you might lose your job. And therefore you were risk averse. Whereas in our company and in the company of, you know, the people that I worked with, we all had a, you know, a mutual understanding that you did not get fired for taking a wrong decision. So you weren't risk, you know, a verse you would take risks. And if it didn't work. Well, that's fine. You know you try not to make the same mistake. A second time, but by and large, you get on with it you fix it and you move on. And I think once people get used to that level of freedom. In their operating style, then they just carry that forward into whichever organization they happen to go to next. And if you look at it. In amongst the list of people that you, you, you mentioned, I think all of them have gone on to perform, you know, brilliantly in, in, you know, the organizations that they're working for now, whether it's mega discovery or turn at Z five. You know, some area applause, and so on and so on. And you know, I think that I think came from the fact that we were very lucky to have them in the first place. That's it. Now you also talk about, of course, a lot of times in the book, as a mention of the more docs on page 244 you also talk about, I admire James for his clarity of sound and being an intuitively fair person. And then you want to share some incidents. So give us a sense of, why do you say that. That's a tough one on rock. I think, you know, you've caught me on thought caught me off guard there. But I think the, you know, what I remember very clearly James was that he was, he was, you know, very young when he arrived at star he was also very, very charming he was also a great listener. And one of the things that he had going for him at that particular point in time was that he would listen, because he knew that he didn't have that much knowledge about the India marketplace. And, but he was, and what he didn't know about the India marketplace he was willing to absorb and listen to other people and their views and then take a calculated decision on whatever it was that happened to be being discussed. And, you know, to give you a specific example would be, would be, you know, wouldn't be fair, because there was so many of them. And I think what I would say is that one of the benefits that we had by having James as our leader at that time was the fact that you know, Rupert was his dad is, you know, he could literally pick up the phone and talk to his father about either a particular issue or a set of issues that you know needed addressing, which perhaps, you know, a normal senior executive would not be able to do. You know, at, at the drop of a hat, whereas James certainly could. And that was a, you know, a really unusual benefit that we had, which we were able to kind of, you know, utilized to our advantage, which you know none of the other organizations had that opportunity. So Sony, for example, did not have that ability to be able to call somebody and say, look, you know, this is what we need to do. They all needed to follow a certain protocol. And one of the things that we did not have in our company at that time was that we did not necessarily need to follow a given protocol in terms of how, you know, how one functions. It made a huge difference. It kind of, you know, it's speeded up and a turbo charged our decision making immensely, which made a huge difference in terms of speed, as well as, you know, benefit derived from it. Fantastic Peter, I would like to end by asking you two questions. One, as you look ahead in your own personal journey. What is your bucket list, or you live as every day comes. And second is when you specifically look at the media businesses in India, what do you think they need to do differently to be able to be relevant, profitable and build scale. One personal question one professional concern. My bucket list, my bucket list would be to, I think, to, in terms of professional preference. At some level, I'd like to work at a, or be working in an environment where I'm working with young people. Who have a view to, you know, the near future and accustomed to a certain way of thinking, which, you know, which I would like to learn from. And if there was an opportunity as, you know, in any young, young startup company to be an intern, I would love to do that that I think for me would be, would be the, you know, a great opportunity. Rather than running an organization to something you asked me earlier. So, you know, media businesses in India. Well, look, I think, I think they've got a great future there is whether it's in the area of television whether it's in, you know, in, in, even as far as print is concerned. I think, you know, broadcast media in India is still a long way from getting saturated and a long way from, from seeing a downturn. One of the things that saddens me in the media business in India at the moment is the fact that we have lost sight of delivering quality for the viewer. I think we tend to deliver programming, but fill it to the gunnels with advertising, which is annoying from a viewer point of view, we don't respect the viewers freedom of choice. And, you know, there is no sanctity to the amount of minutes per hour of advertising that broadcast channel or, you know, can carry. And I think if you were to say who was the sponsor of the last India England cricket match that took place two days ago, or three days ago, I think most people will be hard pressed to say who is the sponsor. Because it was Paytm. But the point is, very few sponsors are today recognized for the amount of money that they actually spent because there are so many of them. And there is no special position given to them. And therefore I think the more the channels tend to do that, simply to kind of recover revenue, I think the more disservice they do to themselves. So I think they're their own worst enemies in some ways. Thank you so much, Peter, for talking to us this exchange for media. I will end by asking you what's your favorite quote these days, what is it that you say to yourself a lot or say to others. I don't have a particular particular quote at this, at this point in time in terms of saying, this is what I said to, you know, to either to myself or to, or to others but I do, I do like the quote that you read out from, you know, from Elon Musk. And I think that's something that for me has a tremendous amount of resonance, even today and and you know I think we'll continue for the next few years because it does say we have to just get on and do it. And I'm not going to repeat it because it has profanity in it. But I think, you know, the sense that you get from reading that over and over again. I think is something that, you know, is very, very tangible and very real. And I think that's, you know, it makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you so much, Peter, we wish you luck, wish you book luck and show the book again. It's called Starstruck. Confessions of a TV executive. And clearly, it's a book wants to read specially for everyone who's known Peter and was interacted with him at star or during his three decade journey three plus ticket journey. So I would recommend that you read it and I'm sure it gives some insights into how star India was built, and it'll also give you some insights into how to take big bets. And let me say that it's a book worth reading. Get it fast, read it and share your book reviews. Okay. Thank you. Peter. Thank you once again for talking to us. I'm sure the book will do well. I'm looking forward to the conversation with Raj in the evening. So all the best for that. You and Roger work together so clearly, there are much more anecdotes to talk about and really look forward to that. Anurag, thank you very much for having me as I say I think that some of the questions that you have posed to me have been, you know, have been tough to support took me by surprise one or two of them, which is nice and it's always good from a from a to kind of have those have those questions thrown at somebody who's, you know, not expecting them. But yes, thank you very much and I'd, I'd, I'd say yes I think the, you know, the book is something that you know I feel if people read it. Generally a fairly easy read I think most people have said look it's very easy to read I've sat down. I haven't put it down, and I've gone through it and you know in a, you know, over a weekend. And, and I think that's the way it's been written it's a very conversational style of, of having written it, but I've enjoyed writing it. And I hope you enjoy reading it. So thank you for the opportunity and rock thank you very much. God bless you. Thank you.