 Okay, recording is on now. So sorry, go ahead Vlad, ask your question. Well, thank you very much for clarifying who is sponsoring this. But just as a follow up, I know that last Friday we mentioned about Community Bridge. I just wanted to make sure that the timeline is clarified. Is it in parallel with Google Seasons of Docks? Does it go after or before? What is the sequence? It's, they are independent of one another in terms of timeline. And so the Google Seasons of Docks has certainly got a much better start because it's an organized program, systematic, we're already well into it. We would have to, in order to get funding for a Community Bridge project, we have to go to the Jenkins Board. The Jenkins Board would then have to approve that funding. Then we negotiate it with Community Bridge. So I would expect most likely it is slightly after or concurrent to Season of Docks. It certainly will not precede Season of Docks. I don't think we could get the machinery running fast enough to have it happen before Season of Docks starts. Thank you. Now, and again, it's all contingent on funding. Therefore, the crucial question is, is the Jenkins Board willing to approve the funding of this? And that depends on what the budget balances are at the Jenkins Board. And this will be known closer to the September, I guess, is it correct? Yeah, the timeline, the timeline for discussions about Community Bridge will probably be happening about the same time that we're doing the evaluations of Google Season of Docks project. So July 9th, you is your deadline to submit your project proposals. That's also the beginning of the evaluation period. That's a really good time for the Jenkins project to then be considering, all right, we're evaluating all these project proposals. Which of those should we recommend to Google Season of Docks? And which of them should we say, okay, if we can't get it with Google Season of Docks, we would consider doing it in Community Bridge. So, go ahead, Jonathan. Hello, Marc. Hello, everyone. The Jenkins has some pages, spatial pages, explain more about the Community Bridge project or just decide to have all answers for us. Here, that's a good question. I can, we've certainly got a page that describes, there's one or more pages that have described, here we go, Jenkins Community Bridge project. Oh, these are the projects that we had done with Community Bridge. Let me see if I can find the one on Jenkins.io. Oh, yes, yes. In fact, this is the project description. Here you go. So you can, you could actually read about the project that we ran last year through Community Bridge. One of our, one of our potential Google Season of Docks mentors for this year is this student, Slayton Nunes, who was a student last year on Community Bridge. So we ran this project last year through Community Bridge and you can read about it and see things that tell the story of it, read about his blog posts, etc. Okay. And the Community Bridge is a open project towards documentation and code, or, or no, it's just about develop something you are not documentation. Right, it's focus. So, so Community Bridge is, is a Linux foundation vehicle that we can use to fund a project of any sort. Last year we funded it last year we funded a software development project. This year the idea is should we fund a documentation project. Okay, and we can send the exact proposal or we need to adjust in some way to send the proposal for Community Bridge. I would, I at that part has not yet been so it's a good question. How, how would you submit a proposal. My sense is that has not been defined yet fully. I would assume that we will reuse the Google Season of Docs techniques and just say, look, we want to reuse the Google, the Google Season of Docs proposals, and, and admit that they're good project proposals because you can write what you want to do, how long you think it's going to take, what resources you'll need so that they're so effective as a plan that they make a good plan for Community Bridge if we don't use them for Season of Docs. Okay, thank you. All right, and any other questions on Community Bridge. Mark, I just wanted one more time to clarify. So I guess, besides budget, there may be other limitations for Community Bridge project, which may be clarified by, by the board of Jenkins project. And if those, there are some limitations, they will be announced closer to like end of summertime. Right, right. The, the board, the process by which the board selects projects or which they choose to fund an effort is something that has to be negotiated with the board. Yes, absolutely. And it is then within the, within the rights of the board so members of the board include Oleg Nanashiv of, of, he's the key leader and Ulrich Hofner from Technical University in Germany. Alex Earl from Broadcom Corporation in actually in Arizona in the United States. And one, oh and Kosuke Kawaguchi and Tyler Croy. So, so that we've got a, we've got a good breadth and depth of people on the board to help make those decisions. Thank you. Any other questions with regard to Community Bridge. Okay, great. Let's go on to the next topic then. All right, so let's see we talked about Community Bridge we've talked about timeline. Oh, is there an ability for contributors to participate in both I suspect not. I would assume if you were selected for Google season of docs, you would, you would be excluded from consideration for Community Bridge. That's my assumption I haven't seen anything that would say that that's forbidden but the, the season of docs projects to me feel like 10 or 12 hours a week 10 to 20 hours a week for a technical writer who is probably already employed doing something else is a large commitment of your time and then saying, oh we'd like you to give another 10 or 20 hours a week to a Community Bridge project seems unreasonable. I think that the other is, we like to, when we're using funds from the project we like to spread them around. So, I think on other limitations I've described, oh go ahead Jonathan. Can you put the links and you can offer for you another tabs and our documents. You bet. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a good suggestion. Thank you. Thank you. Next year's project. Very good. Yeah that we've got a reference to them. Excellent. Okay, anything else on Community Bridge. Okay, let's go on to Google season of docs then. So reminder, July nine. And I believe it's 1800 utc it's 6pm utc is the application deadline. You must submit your application they do not allow anything after their deadline, and I wouldn't even trust that you should plan to submit July eight. Right, absolutely do not risk missing the deadline after all the work you put into it. We are in the review process now. For proposals, proposals are sent to the scent as a Google doc. And the Jenkins docs mailing list right. And then reviewers. I'm in on the docs. I'm into my second second review now. I expect to get additional reviews done likely before end of day tomorrow. So, so watch your doc. If you've submitted one if you have not submitted one. It's really it is very wise to submit one so that we can give you feedback. If you send, if you submit something July 9 that we've never seen, we will still review it. Absolutely. But you lack the benefit then of our feedback beforehand that could have helped you have a better, better presentation a better proposal. Mike has already commented on several. So I've been seeing his comments. And, and that's great he's currently on holiday. He is walking hiking through the Alps right now so he's taking a few days off of well deserved time off and enjoying time. The July 9 application deadline after July 9 July 9 through, let's double check what the date is. Season of Docs timeline. The next big event there is. I'll read it here. July 9 to 31 is the review period for the organization. So then we'll, we'll do project selection within the organization so July 9 to July 31 review and selection by Jenkins organization. July 31 to August 16 Google reviews it of proposals. And then I believe it's Jill August 16 is the August 17 or August 16 is the announcement. Right. So it will not pre announce that that is serious seriously terrible if we would do such a thing so Google owns the entire announcement. They're funding it. They have every right to be the ones who announces the selected projects. Any questions there on timeline. Just maybe a small again clarification. What would be the best approach in case if you can recommend something. Mark. For example, to start implementing kind of writing documentation along your proposals right now without waiting till selection process will be over or just it's better to wait to not do like maybe unconfirmed work on improved and so on what would be like if there are any suggestions on that. Well, every proposal I've seen has been very useful. We would take it whether or not it was selected as part of Google season of Docs so if you were to start on something incremental work wise, and can contributed as pull request, the project will be delighted. So I would if you have capacity, we would love to have your contribution, whether or not it's in the context of Google season of Docs. So does does that address your question Vlad I don't I don't think you should hold back in the interest of trying to show a very fast start I think that would actually be a flawed way to do it if you've got capacity at the moment. Use that capacity and and it's a great way to. Well, one of the things for me is it's a great way to show your involvement in the community by showing, hey, I'm continuing to submit pull requests during this, this period. It's just me writing proposals here I'm submitting pull requests that show that I'm involved. In other words, there is always a lot of things to do to contribute to improve documentation. So the work will never be over. Yes, yes, you have you have spoken true words have not been spoken that was brilliant. Yes, is there is there too much work to do always will we always have more things to do always. Absolutely. So, so yes, any, anything you contribute with that. Well, let's let's take one simple sample. The wiki to to Jenkins.io transition spreadsheet covers roughly one third or maybe one quarter of the total pages that are candidates. I haven't even triaged about three quarters of the work. And therefore there is lots of work to do lots of existing work and now that's not talking about the things that never even made it onto the wiki. And there are plenty of those as well I was just reading one today of a piece where in a wiki transition somebody wrote one sentence. And I thought that is the most interesting sentence, and I went looking and it turned into a four sentence or five sentence paragraph with 20 minutes of reading behind it to understand why those sentences should be inserted. And it was one single phrase, and it became, but it was. Oh wow that's an important piece of information I wonder where that came from. No one had ever documented it. It was completely undescribed, and it, it, it's very useful information to have. So, so yes, absolutely lots of work to do, and we'd love to have contributions. Any other questions on Google season of docs topics. Yeah. We can't hear you Stephen go ahead. I'd like to know, I'm not really, I haven't used Jenkins before but I saw Jenkins I've been wanting to do to part of the community, especially as a developer, the static analyzing and all things. I've been learning to do to work with Jenkins before. I just, I've been learning to do to work with Jenkins before. I like that question, Stephen I'm going to try to rephrase your question just to be sure that I've understood it. I think what you asked is can an inexperienced technical writer be part of Google season of docs, right. So, and I would put it as two forms either no Jenkins experience. What you had described, or potentially the also was, hey, I may not have any, I may not have been have a technical writing experience, no significant technical writing experience. And the answer to both is no Jenkins experience is sort of expected. This is largely expected, right, that most technical writers have not used Jenkins. Most of them have no experience with it. And they're very good at writing and very good at describing concepts and framing, framing things. And what what they're bringing their expertise in writing and Jenkins experts like me and other mentors will help with how to how to be sure that that's a successful experience for them. Okay. No technical writing experience is less likely to be successful because Google season of docs is tuned is is focused on what I would call experienced technical writers. Now, just because it's focused on them does not mean you can't succeed. If you're not an experienced technical writer but it is that's their focus, they've said hey, we would like to get experienced technical writers with little open source experience into open source communities. So their their goal is is helping open source communities with people who who know how to write. So Stephen does that address your question. Yeah, I think it does the first answer the no Jenkins experience is really my question. Great. Yeah, so now, now no Jenkins experience now this is a great time to get some experience with Jenkins right, particularly during this, this period of, of the Google season of docs process. It's a great time to explore it to test drive tutorials see how they break down to test drive small little experiments that you can then discard. Any other questions that others would like to ask. Okay, so the next piece is my status report last week. I said, I really said it, I know I did. I'm going to be done with the reviews today I apologize I am not done with the reviews today. Mark started the reviews but is not done. I hope to be done within one to two days. And you'll see on your individual document my comments as I make them. The comments are live and visible because we use public documents. You can see everybody's documents actually so you can go browse them and see hey, what did he comment about that proposal. What was the, what did old legs say about this. Those kind of things are all available to you it's the power of public review like this. Now Jonathan you had a question about impact of revision delay when project is running could you ask clarify further what you're asking them. Yes, of course. Oh, let me question about a topic of my proposal. And that that talk is about the one item of my proposal to me great. We have a year of 150 pages for me great that that week. So, thanks I use. And he said it may be a big number because we have the process revealed and can delay our work when project is running right. And, but that that question calls my patient calls my patient because, for example, we put what I doubt break the number for 100 pages, but our work can be impacted because we have a delay and review. So, to resolve that point I propose, I call the responsibility, a responsibility to me. So, for example, if I send to Jenks organization 100 PR PR about the week migrations, and depending on the Google season, period, I will finish them. Just for not not impact our work. Because we have only three months to work and the migration topic is the delay, it's big delay, we can just emigrate the only 20 or 30 pages. It's a small number for three months. Is that clear to you. I think so so I think what you're asking is do would Google season of docs consider the thing successful. If the receiving organization failed in its responsibility to give timely feedback. Is that a fair way, fair way to say it. Yeah, and I think they would. So, part of part of the docs consider a project done, even if the mentoring organization failed in its responsibility to to review. And, and that, that's one of the reasons why we assign one of the reasons we assign to mentors to each each contributor to each. Let's call it writer. There we go. So that we don't have we have less risk that, in addition to those two assigned mentors. There are other reviewers. Available beyond the mentors. Okay. So, so I don't expect that to be a blocking topic but if it were to become one. There is action and evaluation process that Google season of docs has that allows you to flag that to them saying hey my mentoring organization has collapsed on itself or is no longer behaving properly. Thank you. So, and I, if I recall correctly they have. Yeah, here we go so September 14 starts doc development, and then project reports and final work products, and then evaluations. So, so, and then there is this additional option for long running projects. If we have project submissions that need more than the, the September to November to end of November so let's see. So this is about 10 weeks, right, four weeks in November four weeks in October. Yeah. So this is roughly a 10 week project. It's allowed to go for long running projects, all the way into March of 2021. Okay. Mark. Yes, I have another. Go ahead. So, for example, you are in the next two days, and you are working and they reveal for our proposal. If for example you do. Yeah, the our project that needs to be great to a long term project. Did you, do you see an advice to us or no. It's a good question and I don't know the answer to that one. That's that one. That's what I'll need to do some research on Google season of docs is page long term project. Will the submitter will the writer be notified that this is really a long term project. Because we need to know this information before we send our application. Right, right. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a good point. So, I think that's a very practical practical question and Mark has the action item to learn more study more about how the decisions are made. I assume that we would not expect you to be on a long running project unless you were fully aware that you were submitting a proposal for a long running project. And the organization agrees. Yes, it's a long running project. So, so if, if there were any disconnect between your perception of whether it's a long running project and the, and the mentoring organizations perception. That would be a big red flag that would that would say oh we've got a problem. Let's use the preview preview sample and other questions. If you think 100 pages, it's a lot of pages to work in 10 weeks. So maybe we need to download the name that number again. So we need to offer your feedback to know about it. Right, right. Exactly. So, but I think it's, I was assuming you're going to ask, would we use a long running project. To increase the scope of work, we could complete. Yeah. And I think that's why we would do long running running projects. So if, if, if we said ooh, this project is such a dramatic improvement that it's worth the complexity of making it a six month project instead of a two and a half month project. That's, that's a valid, a valid point for discussion then. Okay. Thank you. Good. Very good. Excellent question. Any, any other questions related to Google season of docs. I guess Mark, probably I forgot completely about the results outcome of the entire project. I guess Google announces results. And I just need to study this. Probably there is some information about this. What may be the outcome of this, what are possible results. Is it binary result is it like something else and what is the sequence of this. Good, good question. This is my first experience with Google season of docs. Having been accepted, but I believe what it is is there is there is a pass fail. And if pass then reimbursement is made. In addition to pass fail there's we do things like we'll blog, the changes that have been brought about this will usually have the person who was the writer act as a conference speaker. Invite them to speak at various online meetups or other conference locations to say, hey, we would like you to talk to this. Last year, for instance, with Google summer, summer of code. We had two of the students that flew to Portugal to report at DevOps world, and they did presentations there. And it's a very, very good thing because it brings a new contributor to the community, someone who this was their first major effort in the Jenkins project can share their insights what it meant to work in the project and what they learned and what was hard and what was easy. Those are the kinds of things that typically happen in that is, yes, we'll definitely have you do a, we would have people do a presentation, likely several, a likely presentations in conference settings, and a blog post to say hey look at this here's here's what what we've made progress on etc. Even maybe in case if it will not be implemented in documentation, it will not be merged, for instance, maybe it will be reflected in the roadmap in the future development for the next three weeks or something like this. Absolutely. Yep. Yes, I should stop using the word yep my apologies I, I'm from the western United States and therefore all of my poor poor grammatical constructs get popped out. Yes, my my poor my poor phrasing my apologies. All right, any, any other topics on Google season of docs. Yes. Yes, go ahead please. Actually, what I may be asking can be repetitive but what I'm saying is like are there any shortcomings for a lot of long term projects like can a proposal be intentionally aimed at like this is the time can be six months time and the project can be a proposal can be framed with the time frame of six months or are there any special benefits or special shortcomings of long running project over the short one, which has three months and that's a very good question unfortunately I don't have enough to give an honorable answer. The, the I, I would think of the, the typical risks from long running projects are are the typical risks of any long running project. Right so long running projects are easier to slip. Miss schedules more easily. Right, they just tend to longer the longer the project the more likely it is to miss it schedules, long running projects are harder to predict. But they also have on the plus side long running projects could be much more valuable. So, so there are there are strengths and weaknesses to each. I apologize that that isn't a really good answer to the question, because I think what you were asking was in the specifics of the Jenkins organization and Google season of docs is there a reason why you should choose a to write for a long running running project plan or a regular length project plan. I don't have a good answer for that. I'll discuss it further with with colleagues and see if they've got some insights that can be offered. What is good. I interrupted please speak. No, no, no, it's cool like I'm answered. Okay, all right so Meg then you were going to make a comment. I'm going to ask some projects you can do this and some you can't whether you could produce a project that was in two pieces that if it's a regular term when we do this much and if I got a long term grant we could also do this much. I don't know if that is acceptable. And it doesn't you know, it doesn't always work it depends on the nature of the work. And that's a good question I'm going to phrase it as a question Meg that can a project proposal. I'm going to modify. Yes, the alternative. Alternatives if run as a as a regular project, or as a long running project. And I've, I don't have enough experience to give the answer but I think it's an excellent question. Sorry for abusing your, your, your observation Megan turning it into a question. You just phrased it better so we're good. Great. All right. Mark. About the maybe question. Did you want to do you want to we put in our proposal or our project for you. The short one of the long or not. And so that's a that's a very good question Jonathan I think the project proposal. Should include a timeline. Right. Yeah. And therefore you're up. Please continue. That timeline in furs short, short, regular or long running. I believe there is a talk about the timeline so that it's possible realize if he a short, a regular regular project or a long term one from the timeline. I think so. Yeah, I think. Okay. As a matter of practicality, we absolutely do want a timeline because a timeline gives you a way to think about how to partition the work into chunks. Yeah, and it gives us a way to assess have you thought about the chunks. Any any other questions on season of docs. I guess I just wanted to mention one more possible question about just thinking how to phrase it correctly. Requirements may change while we're proposing making some proposals to to Google by requirements I mean environment. Well, for instance, we discussed in the previous meetings possibility of providing hardware in case if we're looking for deployment, let's say to Amazon cloud something this who is going to host, who is going to pay and how technical writers will access the infrastructure in case they need to implement. So how we communicate to Google, in case if there is change requirements during the process of implementation phase. That's a very good question. So, how do we adapt to changes. Who do we need to inform of changes maybe that's what you're in addition, who do we need to inform of changes. What are the limitations on changes. Exactly. Yeah, those are those are very good questions. And as far as I can tell, I'll have to do some research to be sure. If we have the flexor flexibility to adapt to changing environments. So, adaptation is allowed. It's, I'm not sure I would call it expected, but it's absolutely accepted with Google summer of code. It's, we fully expect that we will learn things as we're doing the project that we didn't know before we started it. Before we will use what we learned to adapt and refine the project. And I would think something similar here as well, though many of the topics in season of docs are better, more, more clearly well known or clearly understood than some of the coding projects we've embarked on some of the coding and projects we've embarked on were rather optimistic, hopeful, or the phrase blue sky, you know, not entirely sure how to do it. The documentation efforts that we've got so far anyway, most of them are describing things that are already exist in the software, and we need to just describe them well. But adaptation is allowed and accepted. I don't think that there's any formal formal notification to Google. If I remember right is only required if a writer abandons, or a project abandons, you know, if a writer says hey, I've had a personal circumstance change. If I have serious illness or whatever I cannot continue, then Google must be notified and they they have a series of steps they take to deal with that. But I'll have to double check just to be sure. And limitations on changes. I don't have a sense of if, if the project accepted your proposal, your project plan, but then came back to you later and said no we want you to completely do something entirely different. I suspect Google would step in and say that is bad behavior. And they would likely do things like threaten to drop us from the program. Because they, you know, they, you did all this work to create a plan. We did the work to review the plan. And then we decided to throw the plan away know that that's that's really bad behavior for your effort and for hours. Thank you. Excellent. So one last item. There is an upcoming meeting for mentors. I've sent an invitation or what I call a poll. I would like to have more mentors than we have right now, because the complexities of the world right now with coronavirus. Make it so that we just can't always guarantee that everyone will always be available. I'm, I'm actively recruiting mentors can be added at any time during the project so it's not that we have to obtain all the mentors upfront and we're not allowed to change them we're not allowed to add. We can actually add additional supporting mentors to help. We just like to have them agreed in advance so that they can check with their employers and others to be sure that they, the employers willing to allow them to, to help us for the time that we need. So you are your proposal is for simple with now our proposal, the project is not approved to be a technical writer, you are offering, offering to us the possibility to be a major. That's right. That's an interesting thought. Let me put that down yes could could a, could a technical writer act as a mentor. It's not accepted as a writer. And I, I that's a brilliant idea I don't know why not yes. That's, I think that's very good it's the what we need in mentors is Jenkins skills. And if you've got Jenkins skills, or are willing to rapidly develop them that would, there would be no reason you couldn't act as a mentor. That's very good. We need to signalize this with a previous in a like this or not. I'm sorry, ask the question about our intention about our intention to be a mentor we need to analyze right now and that meeting or no no no no you can you could you well it would be it would be great to have you join this up. If you have interest in being a mentor, having you join this, this meeting about mentoring would be a great thing to do. If you don't join the meeting you still are welcome to be a mentor. There's not, it's not that you must attend this meeting in order to be allowed to mentor quite the opposite if you have interest in mentoring at any point in the, in the project we're willing to consider adding mentors. That was that was a really great question I, I like that I had not thought of turning it on it's on it's head we, for instance, we would not do that with Google summer of code, because we wouldn't ask invite a student with no Jenkins experience to become a mentor. Right, they're not going to succeed but with skilled technical writers, it actually is possible and and a number of writers already have Jenkins experience so they could become mentors and could be quite valuable as mentors. Good question. Any other questions. Yeah, just about our timeline. Next Monday will be our last meeting before the application period. All these answers you're planning to speak about them in the next meeting or during the week. If we could, what if we said let me look at my calendar. I'm going to bring it up on another screen in case there's something sensitive on it, but let me look at my calendar because there's, there's nothing preventing us from having an additional office hours sessions between now and July nine. July nine is a Thursday. So we will meet the sixth of July. We could, we could choose to do another session Thursday afternoon this week for instance the second or the third Thursday or Friday, or we could meet next week, the sixth and the eighth or the sixth and the seventh. If you would like that, happy to do so. Do we have people in the United States taking days off. Oh, that's good. Yeah, it is a national holiday. Oh, right, right. It's independence day. Yes. Right. A fourth of July is independent. Some companies are extending that by an extra day one way or another. Yeah, so it's probably the best to do it. We could consider, we can consider meeting on Thursday, July 2. That would still give you a full week prior to the due date to to deal with it. Or, let's see, or July 7 Tuesday, July, July 7. You have a preference. Are you interested in either of those. For example, it can be and July 7 no problem. If the answer is no impact in our proposal. Yes. So, you need to have time to change the proposal. Right. And my, my assumption is, I would never assume no impact just because that inevitably something happens. Therefore, I'd lobby for the second, if, if either the, we could even do it the first Wednesday, if you'd like, we could either do it Wednesday. July 1 or Tuesday, Thursday, July 2. I would also meet on the seventh. You, you let me know which of those you would like and I will schedule it and invite you all. And did you prefer create another pool, like the same, the first time. Oh, I can do that. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. You send the link in Gitter or Google groups. Right. Yeah. So, I'll send a poll for those for and I'm, I'm going to actually drop Tuesday, July 7. Because we still could add that, but I'll send a poll checking for July 1, July 2, and possibly even July 3. And for those three, those three afternoons and we'll, we'll get one of them on the calendar. Okay. Now there will also be a office hours. I believe it's scheduled for Thursday morning. So Thursday, let's do UTC. I think it is Thursday at 2pm UTC with Oleg. I think it's 2pm question mark. Don't, don't trust my feeble memory there. There's, there's an authoritative source, but it's roughly. So people who are getting comments with Oleg that they wanted to discuss might want to go to Oleg's office hours, right? Right. Well, it's just Oleg's, Oleg's are better suited for, for instance, for Stephen on the African continent. He's much better aligned with the Swiss time zone than he is with the Denver, Colorado time zone in the United States. Yes. This is, this is getting late night for Stephen's time. All right. I think we've covered the topics I wanted. Thanks very much. I will post a recording of this session. We'll talk again either Wednesday, Thursday or Friday and look forward to seeing you then. Great. Thank you. Bye. Thanks everybody. Thanks.