 Good afternoon My name is Brian Gallagher. I'm the CEO of United Way Worldwide and you found your way to the new champions new challenges session and You even though we're we're small in number. You've made a great choice. This is an unbelievably talented panel And I think you'll see that in just a minute You know, let me just frame the the conversation a bit before I introduce the panel Clearly the economic and political shift in the world is dramatic and compelling fairly obvious the move from west to east north to south and You know for the last day and a half or so we've mostly been from my perspective examining growth and how to maintain growth how to trade between countries industry sectors and so forth and today we're going to take a look at the new champions you know, the India's China's Brazils of the world and How do they balance their economic growth with and confront their most critical development issues as well? We'll take a look and ask our panel to think about The role of international aid versus internal sustainability and investment the role of government the social contract Inclusiveness in in growth and and so forth and we'll ask them to all take on a question in just a moment But as we get into that, let me introduce the panel and they're a little bit out of order for my card So I'm going to flip back and forth. So bear with me To my left is John Ron Gambois. He's the Minister of Finance and Economic Planning for Rwanda To to his left is Minister Abdul Mal Mughit. He's the Minister of Finance for Bangladesh Next next to the minister is Rebecca Grinspan UN Undersecretary General Associate Administrator UN development program Next next to Rebecca is Hirota Arakawa. He is the Vice President Japan International cooperation agency And then finally at the end Chandra Nair founder and CEO global Institute for tomorrow So if I could and why don't we just start by going right down right down the row Three or four minutes if you would minister starting with you as you look at Economic growth as it relates to development and aid What are the most one or two most? Important shifts that are that are taking place and how does it how do those shifts affect how you do your work in? Both at a ministry level as well as government. Thank you. I think that two main shifts today is Speaking from the government world point of view at woman country point of view Where we still have aid playing a big role in our development? I think the big shift in the last So five to ten years is how this aid is delivered the relationship between the donors and recipients this Notional partnership that has come in I think that has helped in a way in terms of improving the ownership of our development programs and Increasing the productivity of any aid money we get So this aid being linked to our development programs and being implemented through mainly country systems I think that has had a big impact in terms of Improving or expediting our growth agenda of course that depends also on us as the recipient countries how best can we Plan for involvement and how best can implement our development programs that matters a lot and that coupled with the willingness of the donors to To let us own our development programs and implement. So that has been a big shift since 2005 with a Paris decoration though there still remains unresolved problems with some Some donors so that's why now what the challenge or what's required from us is really building our systems in terms of being able to account for For our sources to our population on to the donors, which is also a big shift and a positive one But also how we implement our development programs and our development agenda That's a challenge that falls on our shoulders Which may be different from the past where donors we are giving and they are coming to implement the programs It wasn't effective at all But it wasn't really giving a challenge today to the recipient countries as So it's a good challenge that we are facing and has had for us in Rwanda we've Seen high growth numbers averaging about eight point three percent in the last five years And that's mainly because of this shift of course. They are important shift is now the newcomers in this industry China India and the other emerging markets not only as as new donors But as investment sources of investors coming to our country because today We are looking beyond yes the aid, but how do you attract investment? We're back. We're only looking in the West. We expected people with money that could invest in our countries We are coming from the West today. We have dominant force coming from China from India. So how You change from this Western way of looking at things and now being able to mix how do you How do you decide that on how you strategize dealing with Chinese investors or Indian investors vis-a-vis the traditional sources of investment investment in terms of investment in our countries, but also as Destination of our exports so it creates that challenge of being able to diversify On how it deal with the rest of the world, but which I think is repulsive challenge And we'll we'll come back we'll come back to that that question of the new the new champions investment I wonder so there's a New partnerships between donors and recipient How are your do your citizens get involved in that partnership? I mean or is it do you find that it has to go beyond institutions to get people to understand Their role or no They do they do in a way we We have different forms where we engage these partners. We lead it at the means of finance We did these engagements But we have our parliament being playing a big role in engaging with our partners. We are donors We have what we call joint reviews of our development programs and how these donors are contributing to these programs and here we invite private sector We invite a civil society who are really What representing the citizens but goes back to today even down to the district levels we have We've devolved power and resources to the district So at the district levels, we have what we call the joint action Committees joint action moment committees and there we have different players representing the population Working with the different NGOs and different donors. So yes, they are involved at different levels and Presented by different individuals that as we engage with the partners with the donors So it's not only the means of finance doing that we lead but we have all the other prayers in the country. Excellent. Excellent Minister Mui, your your thoughts on shifts and how it affects how you're doing your work in Bangladesh well, let me begin by quoting from a session we had just a while ago and there Former Prime Minister Gordon Brown said that the shift is like this The sources of production have shifted from one region to another So how do you distribute? the production To the consumers which are somewhere else or how do we I add or how do you create new consumers? That's the shift the new champions ten of the richest countries in the world are now in the south in late in America in Asia in the Middle East or in Asia as well ten of them are there this shift is a really a Very big shift. It's not the shift of 200 years It's actually a shift of 300 years and so it requires a change in the attitude of Adjusting to this shift Consumers of the West will continue to be important But consumers in the new countries is emerging. That's the big change What's happening in China and Japan? domestic demand This is true even in very poor countries like mine Bangladesh very poor country but we are depending a great deal in domestic demand and Dependence in domestic demand has completely changed the concept of inclusion It's not simply inclusion with the in the financial sector It's much more and each country has to decide which is the Smart element in the generation of a domestic demand in my country It's agriculture in somewhere else. It might be small and medium industries somewhere else. It might be infrastructure so Depending on that your consumer Is not going to be like that that the West is the consumer of the products production of the East? It's going to be diverse and that change has to be understood and Attitude will change is necessary right now all the donors practically are from the West the OECD Korea is a member of the OECD. That's how it's a donor There are new donors imagine of course In a donor like China donor like many many Middle Eastern countries peak countries with help which are surpluses So investable resources which will still be in greatly indeed in many of the South Would have to come from Diverse sources not simply the multinationals that you have but also other sources new multinationals Have to emerge in China in in Japan in Qatar and places like that You see so that's another change that's going to happen the source of investment would also diversify One one great advantage of the shift of these days is the tremendous advance in information technology Which is actually globalized production consumption everything? this in information technology and We have found ways that even poor countries have access to Information technology without creating the information divide and that's very important That's one of smart smart sort of approaches how you this how you use the information technology? so this is a Shift which will take considerable period of time. It's not a matter of two years three years Five years have gone the shift is taking place and it will continue for at least another five years And how is it changed how you do your work? Yeah, well you see my work. Let me say I was minister 27 years ago He took 27 years off and then came back I was minister 27 years ago and 27 years I had nothing to do with the government and then I came back again its minister I used to deal with aid in my previous capacity My main concern was how much aid I harness and my country used to get roughly eight to twelve percent of gross domestic product Is eight today? It is only two percent or maybe two and a half percent So I have a different way of tickling now Previously it was the donors consortium which would decide everything today It is the joint strategy which defines how the relationship will take place and that is a fundamental change Although Lester Pearson told us in the 1967 that its development partnership. It was not development partnership in his days. It is now true actual fact Very good Rebecca. What do you see? Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much a wonderful panel Very happy to be here. Let me just compliment what has already been said and give you some some numbers of the The dramatic shift that we are saying The minister of Bangladesh said that the production now The majority of the production of the world is done in the south and in fact is right now is 5050 But by 2030 57% of global production will be in the south and as he said What is happening at the same time is not only that production is is being that will be done in the south But the majority of the middle class of the world will be living in the south and That will shift completely also the trade the the flows in terms of consumption That is precisely what you were referring to a that we that we discuss Let me give you this other a number. This is not happening only in Brazil, India, Indonesia China this is happening in a wide variety of countries in the world right now 84 countries of the south are growing much faster than the developed world 84 and part of this phenomena comes also from the emerging economies, you know The integration of the south of the growth of the of the emerging economies with the countries of the south in terms of growth is much more important today than ever before in the world and If you want a measure of that The measure is that 50% of the trade that the South does is South South trade so the integration of the south also in terms of growth Production and trade is more intense today than ever before Let me let me just then go to how that affect my work and Probably one of the ways I want to to put this that also the Minister of Rwanda and Bangladesh did is first of all this world where you had Eight in the north going to the south is over Because now we don't have like a clear cut between donors and recipients The truth is that you live now in a world where you have Countries that are donors and recipients at the same time They are everything at the same time and that's also a major Change with respect to the situation that we had before you know You have these emergent countries that have these new responsibilities in the global arena as global players And at the same time they have these huge challenges at home They continue to be developing countries and this has never happened before you never had Before that the rising economies of the world were at the same time Developing countries and let me give you one one number there only just to finalize 70% the I said the the emerging middle class of the world is in the south But 70% of the extreme poor live in those middle-income countries So is that this dual role that we have that is making the world completely different From the cooperation perspective in the development perspective from before and that's changed your priorities both on strategy and funding I would presume absolutely. Let me put an example from Latin America 95% of the financing of UNDP in Latin America Comes from the governments of Latin America themselves only five percent comes from eight and that's a phenomena that we will Continue seeing more, you know eight is more catalytic Is more for the investment that you don't have the the seed money for is to leverage the private sector investment Is to build a capacity in these institutions is not necessarily to finance the project Many of the project financing are coming also from the country themselves And the the the last point is triangular cooperation is very very very important Let me add one one thing for the audience because I think that this has not been stressed enough But if you look at Rio plus 20 and what happened in Rio plus 20 What was more important than the outcome document from the intergovernmental process was what happened You know on the on the margins of the intergovernmental process what happened in Rio is that there were 513 billion dollars pledged by Corporations private sector civil society and governments in Initiatives that are like the coalition of the willing, you know, right? It's big coalitions of private sector civil society and governments that is not necessarily 194 countries, you know that are really coming together in a cooperation space That is allowed now because of the technologies and the and the new then the the new communication That you know that make a difference in the world is you know in the energy for all initiative there were 50 countries that you know pledged to that initiative with 20 billion dollars from Corporate money and civil society money and that will change the energy the energy agenda in the world And that is happening at the same time that you know, the the other phenomena is taking over We'll come back to that as well. Mr. Arkawa. So your agency's been at this a long time What is it as a donor what what shifts do you see and how does it affect your work? Well, thank you Brian I'm supposed to presumably speak from the viewpoint of donor, but Overaging agenda here is it can make growth therefore, I talk about that directly in a short Time they I'd like to pause so called service industry like Call centers or business outsourcing or accounting or logistics And so forth how we should find a role of Modern service industry in economic growth previous speakers Talked about new dynamics of economic growth. Then I'd like to look into more Michael Michael level sector level issue from agriculture to Manufacturing then to service industries this traditional concept of economic transformation is Question now in fact the several Asian countries including India Sri Lanka or Philippines and so forth started to achieve strong service-led growth reprogging a manufacturing intensive stage of development The nature of service sector has changed with the new state trades of modern services called three T's tradeability technology as minister said and Transportability ICT in the intensive modern services and now recognize as an Element to drive economic growth Now I could say new Now I could say that we have an alternative path to that traditional manufacturing-led growth there are significant in Terms of policy implementation In a policy implication sorry especially for the policy makers in developing Asia in this regard It could provide us with clues on how to cope with the middle-income trap more of a service services tend to recruit more women and Cause less adverse effect on environment That's it could contribute to realizing inclusive and green growth If all this is true Development partners like Jaika my one is Jaika need to review assistant strategy to promote development through modern service industries in This conjunction I have to say that There are several preconditions to achieve in this sector one is global language like English and quality education but not rocket science number two Quality telecommunication services availability with reasonable cost Connecting with the global market That's number two third There should be an enabling policy environment for investing in the service sector Having said so however, there are two issues to take into account or what we don't know Number one, how about employment? Absorptive capacity in this sector How many additional employment opportunity can be created? number two Entry barriers into the service sector are not so high enough to prohibit the others from entering into this sector This implies that under the given global competitive environment these service industries already may already invested may exit or Move out to other countries rather easily Because comparing to manufacturing sector which require more front-loaded investment So this is my observation on emerging development model. Thank you. Thank you and Chandran finally your view of Most important shift or shifts and how you view it? I Suppose I'll try and start on a funny note. I think the most Significant shift I've seen in at least the Asia Pacific region in the last ten years is that today in Asia More people have access to a mobile phone than a toilet So this this makes me feel slightly constipated whenever I think about development issues in Asia Somehow we seem to have got our priorities right wrong So I think there is a tendency more seriously to add to think that technological solutions are essentially some manifestation of development and progress This is this is a false premise And the the analogy of the toilets versus the phone is a serious one because the toilet is now a luxury item in Many parts of Asia. I'm not sure if it's in Africa, too And the telephone the mobile phone is ubiquitous and almost free How did something a device like that which is? Technologically advanced hydrocarbons heavy metals, etc Become so cheap an economic model that essentially seeks to externalize cost So I think in Asia we need to look at where we've come from and in the few minutes I have I think it's very important to understand where we came from about 60 years ago In the dawn of the post-colonial era most Asian governments were led by people who are either educated in the West or hated Western leaders But they said we want you out and I think my African friends will Sympathize with the sentiment we want you out, but we want to be like you Okay, but they had no textbooks of their own So they bought the textbooks from Cambridge Oxford Harvard, etc and said this is the way you should develop So they said okay, we'll go down this route So being intellectually and ideologically subservient they followed one economic model Coming to the point that I'm trying to make I think and as yesterday, you know, you heard the premiers talk here, etc I think there's a realization in Asia that oh my god We've gone down this path, which is to try and be better than the West One quarters down the road. We are beginning to realize we can't go this way for the simple reason that they're far too many Asians and and Africans to combine And the reality is therefore we'll have to look for new economic models The point I would try to make is that there's a realization in Asia that our teachers Maybe got it wrong But the teaching came out of a different world perspective two three centuries of economic dominance Therefore had a different world view. It was a world view exemplified by what is called the American dream You can have your car. You can drive anywhere. You can do anything you want in a crowded place like Asia The development challenge is not to pretend that we can have an economic model where trickle-down economics will somehow lift all boats and How high will the tide flow? I think the realization is that there are limits And so I was in a conversation just last week In in at the APAC forum in Vladigostok, and I will mention The pan the distinguished panel, but the suggestion was that somehow Asia that not this is not in the suggestion. It was made very clear that Asia is developing There will be some resource constraints, but we will overcome it technologically and Asians will all have and Desire cars My point is that if you've been to an Asian city most Asian cities You will need know that we need more cars like I need a hole in my head Right Tianjin So the question is what does development look like we have transported development from the bay and meeting the basic needs To suggesting that somehow we can have all modern conveniences. I don't think a world in 2050 Which will be which will have about six billion Asians give or take a hundred million here or there Can or aspire to live? That utopian ideal that everyone will have individual mobility, etc And the core issue of development in Asia therefore will be two points, and I'll finish with that first How do we price things? second, what are your rights? car ownership is not a human right and Thirdly, what is the role of the state in defining therefore how those rights are shared around limited resources? That will require a fundamental rejection of The what I call the Washington consensus the economic model of the West which is consumption led but the good thing is I think Asian policymakers are awakening to that reality. The problem is we haven't developed our own narrative We haven't written our own books, so I'm calling for a thousand PhDs in Asia to look at this dilemma of development So let's let's take it from there is You know is development about basic need and in human development Or is it I was struck by the number of times down the panel? We heard the word investment and that except me except you that's that's why we're that's why we're pivoting off of you You know so aid versus Versus investment the purpose and the motivation politics commercial You know basic human needs Does it matter is there is the framework in place for an investment model? No, I think Investment will continue to be important Not for producing cars But for alleviating poverty it's still We have What's the poor about? About 2 billion 2 billion we have still 2 billion people who are poor They have to be taken out of that poverty level and for that investment is necessary Investment in energy is necessary Investment in food production is necessary and these are the challenges before us now How do we get that energy in order to give the Capacity to work which will produce the kind of goods that is required not cars Maybe public transportation is what we should emphasize So a new equation has to be developed of the role of the public sector and the private sector We certainly need very very sort of very developed private sector in our the new champions countries In order to be able to generate that generated investment It's not simply coming from outside. It will have to come from inside, too That investment where it would go is really the question That investment has to go to those those little things which give the basic needs Not to the 50% a population of the country, but to the 70% poor that live in the south So it's a question of how you Restructure your production system Your production system will supply the requirements of the developed world. Yes Maybe not at the level at which it is now I think a lifestyle issue becomes extremely important and perhaps we have time to revisit limits to growth. Thank you And do you think so the you see minister a role of government to put frameworks in place that incent certain investment and and restrict other investment You can't private investment. You can't stop investment You have to design a package of Policies which would generate investment in the areas that you want. This is the role of the government Rebecca you were gonna jump in. Yes. I I think that is very important not to not to Fall into false Diacotomies, you know really, you know you you need better quality of growth and you need sustainable inclusive growth and that will require a Changing, you know a Sectors and the consumption patterns the production patterns and the consumption patterns on the world. So price pricing Accordingly will be very important, but that doesn't mean that everything we do is wrong You know, there are many of the things that we need to do that we know and there is a Lot of the investment that is going to be to the right sectors that we need to invest on So it's about the quality of the investment is about the quality of growth The other false dichotomy is between You know the private sector in the state the truth is that why do we have to? For having one diminish the other, you know in many of our countries we need Better governments and better private sector and they are complementary You know the investment of the private sector cannot be enhanced or leveraged without the investment of the public sector And you know that you need that Complementarity to make growth happen in a sustainable way. So You know, I think that part of the Washington concessions problem was to demonize one part Against the other and what we learn from that is two things one is that we need both Second is that there is no one size fits all Not by the Russian consensus not by any other one, you know at the end we will need to find the right a Path for growth according to the specific circumstances that the countries are going through their specific demographics There's specific a history and institutional Configuration and there is no one that you know, we can learn from each other But the ownership and the crafting of the development path for each of the countries is as important There can't be a single definition No, and that's one of the things that you know the global the emerging economies have shown very clearly China is not development in the same way as Brazil or Turkey or Indonesia You know what they have done is to open up the matrix of options for development for the developing world So let me go to the minister and then Chandran then come back So we were talking we were talking in the speaker's room that want has gone from 50% of GDP in the form of aid To now 42% so you're balancing this in real time, right? You know investment versus aid And so how do you think about that? But or just react to the discussion I just wanted to support what my colleagues were saying in terms of investment today the other new thing or challenge that have come up is don't just think of investment or growth for the sake of Increasing the world and dropping the country the challenge of one And an investment or growth that is Environmental friendly is key today is this something that has come up maybe in the last 10 years where today we talk of green economies and really caring about Environment as you think of growth number two is key which they bring up is the issue of In equality in terms of income we've had growth models in the past where you see a country is growing But the issue of income inequality becomes a big problem So how do you structure your growth model that you ensure there's this equal? Opportunities across the the population so that's that's very key in as we think of this development today, so this kind of attracting investors from outside World's talk of a win-win situation as you you said maybe some of these investors come with political agendas behind that Find what's important for us is to to see how our agenda is being met by these investors coming in if as People want to put like a China is coming to to to Africa Investing in Africa not purpose for the sake of growing Africa, but for their political interests. It is in our Interest or it is our responsibility as Africans or in this case as Rwanda to ensure that Chinese investment coming to Rwanda Is benefiting us as a country and we end up really we get a win-win situation So because you have political interests as well I mean both human and political interests exactly, so I think the most important thing is really us The destination of these investments to know what we want from this kind of investment. We are getting from either West or from Asia and how that benefits our population how that benefits our growth agenda and how do you do that specifically do you use Tax incentives Transfer of wealth plans to to make that happen to make sure you get the inclusiveness. How do you what are the mechanisms you use? I think one is as government we we are supposed to Invest where private sector think it's not fancy. It's not really that profitable. We are supposed to To be like the the guinea pigs of this kind of investment that private sector won't easily go into But then there are other creative areas where private sector have been trusted in and We leave that the private sector then we go into other sectors where after Creating an enabling environment or after creating a market there then use you bring in private sector you sell to the private sector so otherwise what you said about our Our change your shifting financing our development or financing our budget is We've made different reforms in the past mainly reforms that enable Investments and we've seen our private sector growing. We've seen our privates and our taxes growing At an average of 20 percent nominally 20 percent per year. So this increases our Taxes and therefore it increases the share of our budget being Financed by our taxes and of course as we know in the past we've been seeing aid going up as well so this increase was not just because We are not able to raise taxes, but we were Because we've been we've been able to to to prove that we can put aid to good use We've seen more donors willing to give us more money because we have I would say Good development programs and therefore that increase the amount of aid and increase the the share of aid in our budget But as the West is having their own challenges It's sort of being capped at a certain level so it's you see right aid captors as Nominal terms, but you see our taxes going up and therefore the ratios Change easily, but they play on each other in a positive way Shondren and then mr. Akawa I don't have the you know the experience of development in government positions like my my co-panel is here And so I hope I didn't come across as suggesting that investments or bad or donating Donor aid is bad, but I do think we all will be honest and say that much aid has not necessarily Translated into the sort of progress we wanted over the last 50 60 years That is not to say a great deal has been achieved as well, but I think it's important to distinguish between growth and development And this is a very important distinction to be had Much at least I can speak from the Asia-Pacific point of view what I've seen much Economic growth in Asia has come at a huge expense Okay, so of course it's lifted hundreds of millions of people, but I would argue it has Worsened the The the conditions in which the ability of those left behind to come through and that that and Particularly in terms of quality of life resources use etc Principally because that economic model we've adopted as I said before Seeks thrives on externalizing costs. Okay, I think we all agree on that So the question now is well where where do we how do we go forward? My point is that I think Asian policy makers etc. Understand this But they don't know what to do Because the narrative is still very much that of the World Bank the IMF all of these this is what you should do So I think this is a very important rethinking that's going on the other point. I will make is You know investors are all good people, but investors want their pound of flesh So when they come and invest in the developing world country, they want Their pound of flesh which is usually given in forms of Externalization of course pinier status this this this this doesn't make them bad We need to rethink how that will work in the different a different form of Asia So I'm just suggesting and I'll finish up But when we look at aid and I'm not an aid expert, but I have worked in the aid arena lived in Africa, etc We need to understand that it has created a whole element of distortions But if you look at Asia Asia is not poor There's a lot of money here a lot of money Which is squandered because we have adopted an economic model that concentrates development in certain areas So just to share one of the things I'm trying to do here in Asia is to create a social investment fund One that blends financial returns With social into rare social impacts as well and there's a whole body of work But guess what try and raise some money for something like that, and it's very difficult Try and raise money for another shopping mall or a high-rise condominium in Shenzhen, Kuala Lumpur or Mumbai and Bang why because capital flows work in certain ways We need to create in Asia in my view a completely new asset class devoid of donors devoid of aid where the wealthy in this part of the region understand it's in their interest To start to invest in this new asset class. I call it missing market finance So that they start building the creating the building blocks for a future in which their current is assets Will be protected because if you can use the cliche the bottom of the pyramid needs are being fulfilled Right, I'll finish by saying if we don't do that in the next 20 years We'll have say 1 billion Asians at the moment. It's about 650 million Asians who are the consuming classes Let's assume another billion enter the consuming classes, which will by the way rock the world in terms of resource implications There'll still be two and a half billion Asians who on the periphery My god, they'll be very angry Because they'll have that mobile phone No toilet to look at you how you and I live Right and that that is the dilemma and that's what governments need to look different and the wealthy in Africa in Asia Needs to stop looking at the West for money. I'll go some countries. I understand need it But we need to very very carefully think about this Thank you. We're gonna come to your questions in just a minute, but mr. Arco, I do want to make a point. Well, they Brian mentioned about a versus investment the Rebecca mentioned refer that I free agree with that once Rebecca said and basically Eight buses investment. This looks like a government versus the private If you recall the war bank It was 1994 when the war bank published so-called East Asian miracle The approach to the to the Southeast Asian countries Is so-called market friendly approach? That means compatible each other and compliment each other So that clearly shows the nature of the assistance and that's one secondly the Most of the Asian countries do not didn't have any so much aid dependence They like in Vietnam 1994 they open the door to the Market economy then To some extent in those days a dependent ma now, but it's totally less dependent That's second point. That's third point is They in my experience for the past the 35 years in Asia. They the how to use the aid money for investment. It's a they used the aid money for Critical project in critical sector Not in the long run. They continue to borrow and And continue depend on the external resources. They did it in a very strategic manner and Last point is the even the PPP for instance, there are a variety of approaches VPP like a public versus private private, but the real story is that like a Thermal power project for instance They in Vietnam for instance, they we finance under the aid money first phase and summer power project and Including the substations then right away and the transmission as well then second phase there will be a very less risks there because Right away has already secured and the substation was already done and various surrounding infrastructure has been done therefore the always this kind of you know overseeing the total risk and Minimize the risk then design that again a blended approach, right? That's my point Yeah, and I have some questions first the choice between toilet and Mobile that's not a choice in my country. We're both mobile and college But the toilet is not what you expect in the city my look rural areas are better Insanitation than the urban areas. You see so there are ways of balancing the two What to me looks important is the challenges challenges actually challenges for the new champions Challenges for the new champion is to find more energy resources how What technology solar energy Less energy intensive industry, whatever it is. This is number one the second challenge is population and management of population is essentially By the route which is called human development if you invest in health if you invest in sanitation If you invest in education you are going doing the best thing for population population management That is food and that is very basic agricultural production must be given Consistent priority. It's not priority of today and then you forget about it and beginning of ten years. No, it's a Consistently it has to be attended to and these days, of course We have the problem of environment How do you have Sustainable development so that the world for my children for my grandchildren is the world that I enjoyed in terms of resources This is the biggest challenge that the that the new champions would have Inequality has to be attacked and inequality cannot be left to the private sector only Inequality requires public investment, but these days we know I mean Production of public goods by private investment, that's what you have to go for which is the PPP Public-private partnership the best example given by the two days I mean former Prime Minister Mr. David I mean Gordon Brown that's something that we have to use in a much bigger way in the Asian something You're right that we have been plenty of resources That's not in shortfall. What is in shortfall is Not the overbearing public sector But a regulating public sector a public sector that regulates rather than invest itself Thank you. Thank you. There are any questions in the audience Please two down front here first man here in the white and then we'll go to the end And if it your name and who'd you'd like to address your question to please? I'm from Nigeria. I think the Minister of Finance from Bangladesh raised the issue of population I think it was missing from the discussion of the panelists The fact that Asia is actually at the end of his demographic dividend period. It's closing Agent is coming up and Africa is on the other side I would like to hear from the Minister of Finance from Rwanda what the implication of this shift is in terms of growth for the future Thank you It's a great question. So a really long-term horizon on the continent versus maybe the cycles a little closer to maturity in Asia Or at least parts of Asia. Yeah, I see it in two ways. One is on the In terms of the quality of our population There's the numbers, but also the quality of our population in terms of this Today we have more skilled Manpower in Africa than than yesterday and Therefore today, we are better positioned to attract the industries now that we are attracted to Asia in the last 10 years or so Today here industries closing Up down here in China and shifting to Africa because it's became becoming more expensive to produce from here Than it would be in Africa. So we are supposed to be positioning ourselves take advantage of this shift in the in the world order in terms of The cost of production to me I see that as a as a chance for Africa as as an opportunity for us to tap into in terms of the the different Businesses that are looking at Africa now as As the next destination in terms of cheaper Cheaper means of production, of course, we need to do a lot We need to do a lot in terms of facilitating these investments. We still have issues of energy I think the minister talked up of energy here. We still have issues of expensive energy We have cheaper labor, but we have expensive energy. We have poor infrastructure transport to to the markets So to me, I see it as an opportunity to us. We just need to have all the other cards put in the right position Really really quickly and I mean really quickly so I'm getting to these other go ahead Rebecca. No, go ahead No, I think that the Demographic question is is a very important one and it has been one of the factors for the rapid rate of growth Also of the emerging economies, you know, apart from the rate of investment It has been the demographic bonus and we have to prepare for the aging population But they I I I don't want to leave the demographics only to the numbers But also to the gender issues because you know, we haven't talked about Generic quality in the equation for economic growth for more equality and for intergenerational also equality so in the in the the Contribution of the of women to economic growth of a more sustainable a Model of development. It's as important for Africa and Asia as all the other variables that we have talked about in fact isn't it without Investment in the economic and social empowerment of women. We probably don't achieve the goals doesn't happen, right? Well in the MDJ seat, it is very clear. Yeah, doesn't have that they have been a All the all these stories and all the research in terms of the achievement of the millennial development goes You know the cross-cutting issue of gender equality always has been at the center But still action is lacking. But Asia's demographics is a mixed bag Okay, China is aging India is not and please also be very careful that the democratic the demographic dividends should not Africa should not be seduced To be the next place to which externalities are shifted, you know in Davos I sat with the for the late and very great President of Ethiopia who passed away and we talked about this He said we do not want to be the next place that because now China is expensive You know, we get a chance to make some cheap shoes so you have to be very careful about the sort of Conventional wisdom about how things work in the world win a very different time You have to think very differently about that that conventional wisdom. I mean, I don't think urbanization is nature necessarily the the natural way towards You know human destiny So let's let's come down to this. Well, it'll be our last question And I've a feeling many of you will want to jump in no matter what the question is. So Which is fine, which is good Jamie drop Jamie German from one founder of one. It's a global advocacy organization focused on the Millennium Development Goals Especially in sub-Saharan Africa. You've spoken about so much. There's so many questions you could ask but one is The issue of transparency in the natural resource sector was mentioned a few weeks ago. The SEC spoke the ruling is final Companies are listed on the American stock exchange will have to make public their payments to governments That is about to be agreed and harmonized in Europe Covering 80% of all companies in the extractor sector globally who are listed the outliers will then be largely Asian companies How do you recommend we best go about a campaign to encourage and work with Authorities and companies here. So the transparency gets rolled out. So there's a global level playing field So the natural resource wealth of countries can be used best for the benefit of their people I wanted to ask a second question, which is about how do we design the new replacement Millennium Development Goals in your opinion? Oh my god, we won't have time but but we we were having that conversation again in the speakers room and what so What's your view start with the two ministers at the At the end of the day will for instance the Chinese investment in Africa right now Be a net positive or a net negative without drawing conclusions that aid is better than investment and so forth because it goes to this question of transparency and and Making sure that you know minister you were making the point that your interests are served as well as not just Chinese investors But any foreign investors that how do you respond to the transparency question? I think the most important thing is Transparency is key to to development as we are saying to development and this is development that is across the population and Transparency is also key to to to limit today the negative forces behind this extraction extractive industries mainly because This has been one of what they call the the source cast to Africa. So as you increase transparency Populations or countries are able to track what is generated from their their minerals from their resources and how it's being used for the benefit of the of the country So I think that's very key. It's key for the purposes of Now distributing or benefit Using these resources for the benefit of the population not for the benefit of the few investors in these areas and the few Politicians or other key figures within this country. So I think that's very key as we talk of this new development agenda If we are able to enforce and emphasize this Transparency maybe won't even need a the tomorrow We are able to use our resources and use these resources to develop our countries Do you think it'll happen country by country or will happen through a different frame a different mechanism? To me, I think it has to really be to come from within our countries Imposed from outside good, but I don't think to work if it's not really supported and coming from our countries in general Any other thoughts on transparency specifically to that question? Yes Not exactly the case that you mentioned, but I had identified four challenges In what I said really really quickly. We're over there. These are physical challenges. There are two other challenges It's a very important One is corruption. Yes, and that is where transparency is important and we must have all kinds of processes and procedures which ensure transparency and Accountability Transparency is not enough enough Simultaneously accountability must be there and therefore it is important and the other thing is governance and for governance What you need are building institutions. Of course human development will largely contribute to that But these are the two areas where we should also Asia Late in America Africa who are thinking of the future future champions have to really really confront these three issues corruption governance What was the other thing I said? I mean corruption wins transparency and accountability that's right and the other one I said is Institution right so let's so we started a little late. So 30 seconds each so Chandran write down 32nd final thought yeah, ma'am I totally agree that the transparency issue and the traceability has to be at the national level I think all of us know that trying to impose it from outside creates a lot of different Resentments and frankly the biggest place in the world every day in the week. We here find ways to move move around it So it has to be very local, etc Their last thing I would say is we all find it very comfortable talking about transparency corruption, etc The question is how do you do it and I think fundamentally until we challenge an economic model which thrives on this Externalization costs underpricing, etc. We're not going to address the issue of transparency because it's nice stuff to say But it's much more fundamental at the core of the economic model Well coming back to the topic of the demography it is a really Japanese experiencing now and as you know the Japanese diet has already passed increase of consumption tax with a social security reform and This is in a sense a little bit too late even so one of main one because one of the main source of huge budget deficit of Japanese government is owing to that Delayed social security reform particularly healthcare and pension system Therefore they this is a very very critical issue, but the speed of demographic owners and Policity form cannot match in case of Japan Therefore, please keep in mind always be prepared for that Very good Rebecca well two things a when transparency goes up the allocation of resources to human development improves and That you know there are many Many research around that My second point is around the MDGs and the post-2015 agenda and and only To say because eight has been put in a wrong light here that MDGs has galvanized So much effort and energy in the country themselves to achieve the MDG goals That the progress that has been achieved during the last ten years is amazing and nobody tells the success stories You know, you know, we accept that you have to experiment in private sector in this and that and you have failures In eight if you have failures is because eight doesn't do anything good You know in the social sectors you have failures and then you stop the programs In the private sector, you don't do that you have failures You do it again until you learn how to do it better and I think that that's that's really what we need to To do and the post-2015 agenda I think that will be one of the most important discussions that we can have for the development agenda of the future and I think that the energy and the Interest that has, you know Come to the high-level panel of the secretary general is amazing everybody wants to be there So it shows that everybody thinks that this will be a very central piece of the development agenda In the years to come final word the minister's got a meeting No, I think This was interesting topic, but what I can say in a conclusion is We have big opportunities today than challenges. How best we work together as As the world let me put it like that to take advantage of these opportunities and be able to to To grow our our our nations I think that's a key point that we should be discussing how best can we take advantage of the the current opportunities the technology the The different prayers in the world is no it's no longer one sided. We are all Prayers in the in the matters of the world. So I think it's it's a good time And it's what's important for us to rework together and take advantage of it's great It's a great way to end you know, I'm struck by you know It's obvious that the political and economic power is shifting What was so clear in this discussion is that maybe the same way in business that reverse innovation is happening? Products are being developed in emerging markets and then being exported into developed markets Maybe the framework around development and aid in the blending Framework maybe comes out of this part of the world and in the south that then gets exported across the world It was fascinating way to think about that frame. Help me thank our panel Thank you for coming