 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. The beginning of the monsoon session of parliament in 2023 was marked by the release of a video just a day before which is from Manipura, a gruesome video which seems to have prompted the Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, to make a comment on the contents of this video which relates to an atrocity, a brutal atrocity against a woman in Manipur during the violence that began on 3rd May. Today, to discuss the implications of everything that has happened over the last 24 hours, we are joined by Nandita Haqsar who is an expert on the Northeast region and she is a woman's rights activist. Welcome to the NewsClick, Nandita ji. So let's begin with the Prime Minister breaking his silence. What do you make of this sudden change of heart? If we hear his comment, he condemns the act of parading two, in fact there were three cookie women. He doesn't mention their community. He just says that this is an atrocious act or he is very angered by it. He is very saddened by it and then he just talks about it as an isolated incident of sexual harassment and then he says that I hope all the chief ministers in all the states will protect women. So he is still not made a statement either on Manipur or on the context in which this horrendous act actually took place. So the context not being mentioned and the Prime Minister seems to engage in a generality of course we all agree that there should be no violence against women. But what is the context that you think needs to be highlighted? Well, in the context of what our Prime Minister said, it's really odd because just the whole movement of the wrestlers who are awarded and gold medallists who are fighting against sexual harassment and that person was, you know, not even an FIR could be filed. And here an FIR was filed and no action was taken by the police. So you know it's quite outrageous and it's like a mockery of what is being happening to women and how women are being used and how women's rights are being part of politics. But as a feminist we know that rape is not one time act. It's always been used by men against other men. It's that. But I don't want to go into that in this particular talk. What I want to say is what is the context? Now the context immediately is that Manipur has seen violence for more than two months almost three months and the government, the state government and the center which now has declared it under 355 has been not able to be able to be controlled. So the question is why? And this is not a one time act. There are continuously, in fact I think your news channel also exposed the other rape cases and no noise was made, no statements were given and other print media also has exposed other cases. In this case itself, this young woman's brother was killed trying to save her and the father was killed, the village was burnt. So this context is and it is very clear is a violence against the cookie community. Now the question is why is there a violence? And as a journalist, I'm sure you know that we say what is happening, we have been talking about what has been happening, but nobody is talking about why it's happening. And now I think it's time to talk about why it's happening. What is the why that you feel the media hasn't actually focused on? Well, there are three, shall I say, three aspects to it. One is a historical aspect which some of it has come out, but a large amount of media has really been talking to a large number of media intellectuals and not asking them about taking stands on such issues, about two militia who have been responsible for a lot of the violence. None of them were asked to take a stand on that. The Arambayi Tengul on the Mehti Lepun. Yes. So they're not asked to take a stand, they're asked just generally. On the other hand, they are asked to condemn the actions of the Mirabai, these are women torch bearers. Now I think that's why I want to come to this. Now what is making the Mehti's angry? Why are the top singers singing in a way to ask for genocide, saying that they will kill every cookie? Why is this people who are so proud of their culture using all their cultural resources and their physical resources and their martial arts and the arms that they have got to attack the cookies? What is this rage? And I don't want, I mean, there is, either we do this or we demonize them. I don't want to talk, I just want to say, let's understand them. We don't have to agree with them. We don't have, I don't want to rationalize what they're doing. But there is some logic behind it, diabolical, but there is a logic behind it. And that is what? The Mehti communities, the underground, the Mehti as a whole community, including their Medetan groups, have all focused on the glory of a Mehti kingdom, 2000-year-old kingdom. They are justly proud of their history, their language, their culture, their dance, their films, and they are angry every time anyone threatens the unity and integrity of Manipur by either asking for separation from Manipur or for asking for more autonomy, or for asking for more power sharing within Manipur, they go into a tizzy. So in 2001, they burnt the Legislative Assembly. So this, and then they started giving back their awards. So through sheer political domination, physical violence, they are trying to make everyone accept the idea that Manipur State's integrity should not be broken. So that is the cause of it. Now the question is, is this the best way of espousing a cause? And I would ask the Mehtis, as an Indian who fought against Armed Forces Special Powers Act, that just as you didn't think that Armed Forces Special Powers Act is the best way that India could integrate or make the Mehtis feel at home, this is not the way by raping the Kuki women, by burning their villages, by throwing them out, by demonizing them, by singing songs like genocidal songs, this is hardly the way. How on earth can you fight for a united Manipur by attacking Kukis and before this the Nagas and saying that they are primitive, they are backward, they don't have culture? So this is not the best way in any politics. Is the previous demand which we used to hear about till May and early part of June that the trigger point was actually the demand for a scheduled tribe status? So was that really a cover for everything else that was happening underneath or was it still? Well of course, because there are lots of factors and there are complexity of Manipur. It is very complex. I don't know other states but this is one part of the world I do know. And I would say that it is a continuously refusal of successive governments to address the grievances of the communities in living in Manipur or the Nagas or the Pangal or the Andhra or whoever. So the point is that this, Mr Modi says very often that we are carrying the logical end what the Congress has done. So sometimes I think that there is a truth to this that it's not as if the Congress was all correct. They were using divided, they were no policy for northeast. It was only counterinsurgency. And now we have come to the point when all these years of divide and rule and identity politics has come to the fore. But there is a difference and this difference is a very, very stark difference I would say because the other governments did it but they were sometimes a center, sometimes a state. It was very muddled kind of non-policy. But here I think there is a policy and that's the difference. What kind of policy? And this policy is of consolidation of the Hindu identity in Manipur. And that's why we see the burning of churches and it's not only the center or the state or the party because there are local factors also playing but how does this incident happen? It can only happen because we know that from the testimony of the two women that the police, there were policemen in that mob. That's actually a very important thing to point out now because the response has been in the last section of the media and others who are watching that well the police should take action now. The state comes in. Exactly. And now firstly there were members of the police. We know that police has played a major role in this and are some rifles on two sides. And now the chief minister comes up and he says I will ensure death penalty for the perpetrators. Now that, how will he ensure, will he interfere in the legal process? So as it is the legal process, the entire courts, the judiciary, the criminal law justice system is compromised. And the whole, all democratic institutions are compromised. So there's no question of getting justice in that sense. So if we must acknowledge that and the very fact that the prime minister didn't make a statement and to show the seriousness of the situation at another level, we have for the first time a US ambassador saying, offering to mediate. How can he offer to mediate? European Commission has given a statement, the UK has been discussing it, freedom of religion committee in America is involved. So these statements have to be seen in the light of the fact that the church is also intervening. And the politics of the church is quite different from the community which may be in Manipur. Right, but the church in Manipur is a divided church. They've been attempts to unify and so on. No, church means that within the Manipur, meaning the large majority of the Nagas are Baptist church. Which is again the headquarters is in America. It's a very conservative and fundamentalist ideology. There is a small group of Catholics. And among the Nagas in fact, village after village has passed resolution that only one denomination will be allowed. Then among the cookies, a large number of precipitarians. Again, America based, some Baptist also. So this is the links are there. Now I don't want to say that these links are responsible for any politics of that kind. Because the cookie politics was not church-based politics, cookies were demanding separation. So it was not that they were playing. But when the churches get burned, then the church politics comes in and international agencies come in and then they only focus on one aspect and not on Manipur as a whole. So it gets much more complicated. So now what are we going to do about it? That is the issue. So first, this is my suggestion because in the first interview I knew that it's not going to stop. That's why I just said that it should be a truth and reconciliation. I just hoped and against hope that maybe something will stop this violence. The situation seems as if here is our truth and now you reconcile with it. It doesn't sound like the truth and reconciliation which you might have had in mind then. No, absolutely not. And even then I just didn't know what to say. So now I think the first thing, if we all are concerned about Manipur, is that there should be a debate which is what the opposition parties who call themselves India have demanded that there should be a debate not on this incident on Manipur, what is to be done, why is it happening, responsibilities must be fixed and responsibilities especially with the state government and the central government and the police and the armed forces and the courts and the institutions. So those issues have to be debated on and discussed. So first of all there must be a debate in the parliament. Now the problem is that after the debate and whichever point, neither the cookies nor the metis are actually represented in the parliament. So there's a Naga MP who I'm not sure whether he can represent cookie interests and metis interests under the circumstances. So maybe what should be done is a parliamentary committee which then takes in the others or I don't know some mechanism by which the parliament can hear these views. Second, I think the chief minister should resign. This is under these circumstances. Anyone should take moral responsibility and resign. I don't even know why he has not resigned and unless he's given a backing and then why is he being given this backing is a question which needs to be answered. And when it is answered then we will probably know how all this violence because this violence cannot have taken place without state complicity. And by this violence you mean not just what the video shows but the violence in... Yes, yes, Manipur violence. I'm talking about the violence in Manipur. And in that context I just some figures is that how many guns are there? One is that the I think 37,000, 7,000 guns were looted which have not been recovered from police stations. Some report which I cannot check and verify have said that they were in boxes which were given to people. Now I don't know whether that's true but they have not been recovered. There are these licenses which have been given to people mostly metes in this case, license guns. They are all these armed groups which have arms and sophisticated and trained. So in this atmosphere how on earth can you have a conversation? So that is one. Second I would say, so first is the debate in parliament, second is the resignation of the chief minister. I think what I would like to see which is an appeal that the mete intellectuals and intelligentsia must come together and own up to what their community has done. And it's very much the same as I am saying this because as an Indian that's what I did. That's what I was doing. Why was I sitting in Manipur Baptist Church fighting for the rights of the church which I don't believe in. I am opposed to it. But for five years I did it and with me there were a whole lot of Indian activists who were supporting me. Why? It was like to use, now we have the Hindu Rajapriestate for what India has done maybe or maybe to show solidarity that I am not for this Armed Forces Special Powers Act. They are Indians who don't like it. In the same way I think I have the right to say this that Manipuri metes must intellectual, must speak out. Are you suggesting that they haven't spoken out or not enough? They have not spoken out in the way that they should in bits and pieces like some come and say yes yes this rape is wrong but have they been able to make a consistent statement that this community with this party with these two militia what is happening? So they must make a statement and why is this Tamta singing these songs? So yes he loves Manipur, I understand that. I love India too. But this is not a way of showing my love of making sure that the other community is obliterated and there won't be and it may be a stereotype saying it but Nagas, metes and cookies are extremely brave and they are armed people they have no hesitation in using arms, they have a long history they are not going to back off so they are not going to be silenced and the government of India has not been able to put down all these insurgencies. So therefore there is a need for someone to take a stand and it has to be the majority community if they want Manipur then they have to take the stand if they don't take the stand it won't happen. So that is what I feel. How hopeful are you of you know the discussion on the resignation of the Chief Minister Biriyan Singh has been on? How hopeful are you of that particular demand? It seems to be a sticking point especially for the cookies but how hopeful are you that the government will listen? No this government doesn't seem to be listening to most people's demands in India so that but maybe it should because this Manipur is a border state it has international implications so if for nothing else for the sake of India I think they should and the point is that this has many implications it's already got implications for Mizoram already there's an influx already MNF not Mizoram government but MNF has said they will support the cookie demand There is a very serious resistance going on across the border in Myanmar and people are coming in Now you've watched this politics for a long long time many decades is there any logic you've seen behind it why keep silent on something like this? No I said in the first interview and I'm saying it now that the logic is identity politics and it's identity politics backed by guns there is no one who can have a model authority to talk about Manipur it wasn't like that I don't know how it but I do know a little bit but at the time of Indian independence when Manipur state joined the Indian Union they have been Muslim chief ministers they have been Nagar chief ministers there was a possibility of a Manipur which celebrates its diversity but that possibility died out very soon it was all identity politics and this identity politics was fed in by the insurgents because although some of them have names like the communist party NSEN has socialist there is no communist or socialist agenda there is no social economic program it's just identity based on religion and race Can I draw your attention to one last aspect which you had hinted in passing in the previous time that the mette community might be the dominant community it might be the aggressor in many of the cases since 3rd May but when identity politics takes a hold you victimize one community but sooner or later the sort of purest notion of religion etc promoted by organizations like mette-lipon and arambay it will come back to haunt the mette community itself would that be yes of course because now all these if you look at them all these are insurgent groups they're based on a kind of religious nationalism if you see the Nagas they talk about Nagaland for Christ the cookies have not I don't know their history as well but it is a religious nationalism and the mettes is again they may not they just took for granted their Sanamahi but Sanamahi also is a religion and as a revivalist trend revivalist puritanical fundament all this comes together and the other side is that culture that culture the history the all that has over the years really there is no culture which unites all these communities anymore except the language perhaps they are now developing their own identities their own resources their own grievances and they're not going to talk to there is no there are no traditions by which they talk to each other for instance as I don't know whether I said it in to you too but like I belong to old area belong to UP which is that a word which is the Ganga Jamuna culture in a real sense of the term there is no such thing they don't have such things so there is no such cultural traditions or historical traditions historically also they don't have a way of talking to each other so it's a big challenge for all those who want a Manipur United Manipur and I don't think it's happening one thing everybody has is the self-preservation instinct regardless of yeah community and it is true that the cookies are under enormous pressure both by all this that is happening by the way they have been attacked the way they have been thrown out of the valley the way their houses and means of living have been destroyed and plus they do have a loyalty to the chins in Burma who are coming and they are facing huge atrocities so that solidarity with their people I would just like to say to the cookies that I understand that solidarity I myself have been doing cases for the chins but under these circumstances not only the violence I'm saying because of our world in which international borders are made by colonial and imperial powers that solidarity should be there India should accept the refugees but these refugees must be registered as refugees if a politics is played by which the refugees try and take Naga and Maitreya lands then that is a problem and it's a big problem but they will take it if they are not given the registration they are not recognisers refugees they are arrested and they are told that they can't have an adharka they can't live how are they going to live and the cookie sense of loyalty and unity among themselves and their solidarity for each other is very strong and for instance the two women who were parade naked are from the Wi-Fi community so that's a distinct community but they don't they don't emphasize these differences within themselves they are very strong united and that's why they're very effective and Mizoram also is showing that solidarity and they're saying they will protect you know their cousins or their people the community on the other side of the border and we must understand that and till very till two years ago the Maitreya's were also supporting the Burmese over the Nagas something happened in between and that something was that's the pressure on the state government and the state government is not just a state government the the Mr. Biren Singh is BJP who which is in power at the center so in the name of it because I am talking and Manipur this situation really requires us to be extremely honest and to be able to analyze what is happening without all these vested interests and also to for the only maybe the good thing is that first time people are learning the complexity of Manipur otherwise they dismissed it right right how much important should this video be given in the media space in the national debates in this debate you suggest in parliament so the the example of these two women being paraded naked is an example of the extent of brutalization and dehumanization of the Maitreya society it's also an example of how patriarchy works in a war situation and it's it's a symptom and it's a very serious symptom but we those women will not get justice in this system and those police why is everyone asking only for those men who were you know around why it's not on the police who were there that's much more serious crime and who burnt the village who murdered the brother and who murdered the husband and what kind of justice will these people get they won't get and the others who are invisible because the media has not seen them and the country has not spoken out about them right thanks very much for joining us and that's all we have for you today thanks very much for tuning in and we'll be bringing you more reports about the crisis in Manipur as the situation develops thanks very much for watching again