 Good morning, everyone. Welcome. I just want to remind everyone that this meeting is being recorded to the cloud. The town of Amherst will upload it to our YouTube town of Amherst channel so that everyone can view it. Thanks everyone for being here. Take it away Christine. Thank you. Welcome to the Jones library design subcommittee Friday, June 3rd, 830 am. I, we have a quorum and I will do a roll call. Let's see here, Sharon Shari here. Austin Sirot. It's Sarah. I listened to Sarah doing the French thing. We just talked about this with. You want, I'm present. Sirot. Sirot. Is that correct, Austin? I'm present Christine. Want to say it right. And again, I'm not. Okay. So we have a Craig here. Hello. Our OPM. We also have some our designers here. Ellen and Salon. I'm not saying you're right. No, it's good in Saloni, but I'll take you in Salon. And Saloni. Okay. Tony. I'll spare it. Oh, say that again, please. Shall. Just silent. Yes. Thank you. And I think that's everyone. Along with our assistant, Angela Mills. We have Christine, we have Josephine Penta from our office. And she and the other. She's here. Hi, Josephine. And a lot. And I don't, Steve, I hope I'm not butchering your last name. I'm a lot, but it's close. I'll take it. Okay. We got, okay. This is good. We're having this moment. And then Christina is one more. We just joined from my office. And that's will Fernandez. So he's new to the team. And he's going to be helping us out. On this project and a couple of other projects. I'm glad you mentioned that. I don't. To see, to see the full cast of characters, you've got to go to participants down at the bottom. Oh, I have the panel thing up. I have 10 panelists. I don't see will. His name is coming up as my name. I think probably. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I have two Craig's. Yes. People do that. So okay. Hi, Will. Okay. Great to meet everyone. Looking forward to getting started. Great. Good to see you. All right. Get started now. So, um, We do, we don't have minutes right now. So we'll skip item two and we'll go to item three. Welcome to find gold Alexander architects. We're here today to talk about exterior materials. Excellent. Um, thank you for having us back early on Friday. So we're, we put together, we met in house a couple of times this past week. And we looked at different options that we thought based on our experience, we could afford for this project. And we put together a slide deck that Tony's going to take us through and please, you know, chime in if you have any comments or questions or thoughts. Great. Um, so hi everyone, glad to be here on this Friday morning. I'm going to screen share and try to pull up the show. There's any issues or glitches on my end. We do have Steve as a backup just in case there's something on my computer. I'll do the best I can. So I'm going to try to bring it up just with me. Can you see the presentation? Yes, we can. Okay. Very good. All right. I'm going to just kind of go through this. So what we've done here is we've organized. The review of the exterior. Proposed materials based on what we have designed and also looking at a couple of options. For consideration, but just to remind folks, of course, you know, this is really well, this is your current and existing library, which has this beautiful, you know, a stone sort of feel stone wall situation. And as a sort of mixture of grays and warm grays and browns and you know, I think it was a pretty similar kind of building. It's a really beautiful building. You know, 10 and cream colors. So it's a, you know, it's a really beautiful building has a lot of interest. And that actually is interesting for us because there's things we can key off on this because it creates a palette. That allows us some range of options to consider. And as we looked at what this is it now the rendering. This is what we had shown. And I produced and what we see here again, just. So the idea was to do choice of materials that would complement and work well with existing building, but of course be be different because it is a different palette of materials, which we're going to get into in a moment. But if this is a reminder of what this poses on looks like from the front of the library. And then as we move to the to the backside, of course, this is where the library new addition really emanates further and what I want to point out is a couple of key things in the design. What we've looking at here is an approach that normally tries to complement but builds on certain qualities. So for example, we organize the idea that the building is read in several ways. There's a kind of a base condition. This idea of doing something that anchors the building down because the site is dropping the story from the front to the back. So that's what you're seeing here in the kind of darker, slightly darker gray tone. I don't know if you can see my mouse hovering over it, but that's, that's what's being shown here. The main body of the addition is is another material and in this case what's being rendered here essentially is like brick. As shown in this instance but we do have some variations we want to discuss with you all. And then there are other feature elements of course that pop up is that when we begin to shape the, you know, upper area, and sort of scale back the roof. So over here we're seeing a kind of a standing seat metal roof with a series of kind of projecting dharma elements to the left over here. We also have the standing scene roof but then here we have a kind of a larger window wall treatment related to the interior library functions. And then in this particular when the gap between the two massing forms. This is largely a glass wall, what we, what we, in our terminology calls the curtain wall system so this isn't this isn't another area and then of course we have the individual windows which punch into the openings. So I'm going to kind of go through this and in order to try to help organize this and we kind of did systematically kind of material by material so the first one. Pull in a little bit here, we're going to talk about the base. So there are a couple of thoughts that we had regarding this and this rendering it makes it look almost more like kind of a fieldstone wall effect, kind of playing off the stone qualities of the existing libraries. So there are a couple options here so there's two ways we can think about this first is we can go more basic we can consider it as brick. So the whole thing is thought of as brick. Of course there's a huge range of brick palette and color but we just pulled together some examples and samples and we're thinking along the lines that is going to be sort of complimentary to that kind of warm, tan brown palette. We are thinking perhaps that it might go a little bit more what we call monolithic, but this is something we want to discuss with you so. For example, the one to the lower right that's sort of more monolithic it's kind of a more similar palette of gray. The upper right photograph here kind of shows a little bit more variation so there's a lot of ways we can go with this and course brick and come in a huge number of range of types and these examples here they're just samples to just simply illustrate of course brick can change a lot, depending on the mixture so so one thought is that we go with brick and Tony one quick thing it. We don't recommend red brick at all so it's Tony said it's within the family of the of the stone on the existing building. Yes, exactly. And in our from the historic folks that we deal with this mass historic in landmarks in Boston, they tend to want us to make the addition look different. So that's a discussion that we will have with them, but our point of this discussion today is figuring out what materials we're going to carry through SDs to get a cost estimate estimate on and then we can talk color with MHC. Exactly. Thank you. Okay, so, so that's this is one kind of literally no pun intended base option. Another option is something more like this. This is actually a project we did it tough in the grafting campus, and this is called slate sculpting essentially it's slate. And here on the photo on the right which is kind of a little bit more modeled and variegated, which kind of has some recall to the existing library has a more kind of a textural quality to it, and it is literally smaller pieces of slate that are organized and creating this sort of effect and the image on the upper left that is the, the sculpting slate and it's really because it's called that because it literally the slate has a sculpting quality right it's not just flat and smooth and the difference you can see here for on the right, this upper portion here which has the, you know, the title of the building that smooth slate. So there's a, you know, a substantial difference between the sculpting slate and the smooth slate so our thought was more this because it has more of the textural quality that has some recall to the existing library so this is another option that we're going to, you know, price and consider. So let me say one thing Tony before we leave that so the sculpting slate is the, the spoils of this slate when they cut the slate, it's the leftovers. So it's actually quite nice and it's friendly to the budget. Yeah, and that's that's a great point because in some respects, you know, in a way like a fieldstone wall, which is certain qualities almost like the existing library has, you know that's why the stone on the library varies right because it's kind of a wide range of stones and that and of course the mason's were very skilled in putting them together and and they do cut and frozen but but to Ellen's point that is exactly what this is. It is really like the leftover slate elements and it is in fact cost effective for that reason. But yet it's I think quite beautiful. Even labor wise, like is that harder to do then. It's because they're, they're all that it will bring a sample from this job, Josephine and I both have samples that we kept because they're so neat. They're, they're flat on the top and bottom so they're easy for mason to lay up. Right. Great. Thanks. Yeah. The great question. So, I'm going to just keep going and of course please feel free to interrupt but I'm just going to kind of go through this. So the next area we talked about which is identified as number two is the main body of the library edition itself, and really comprises, you know, the bulk of the materials you can see here and here on the upper two stories. And of course, the same palette, it could be brick. So we continue the brick idea and this is already similar along the lines what I just previously described in the option one for the base. So it's that idea of using brick on the upper part. And then the other option actually where I just jump in one. I'm sorry to keep it. Sorry. But so currently in our budget is brick. That's what we have so we, our task was to, is there an alternate that could set us to help. You know, as an option to be more friendly to the budget. So that's what we did some exploring with over the past week. Thank you. So, as Ellen said, the other option we are looking at is what we call this sort of in some ways it's a metal panel system. And one of the really interesting properties about this kind of product is that it is already built in highly insulated. And in a very lightweight, it tends to go up quickly because they actually come in larger sections. And so they were wrecking on site, it's because unlike the individual masonry units like break or that sculpting slate, these come in larger panels so they actually go fast. And they have built in insulating qualities which are also very energy efficient from from that standpoint from a sustainability approach. So a wide range of how this product can also be done. These are just a few examples. One of the things that we thought about if we look at it something like this, we wanted to do some scale to it. So for example, you can see here both the samples here and then this kind of photograph. There's some calls that we can introduce that kind of creates a more kind of a horizontality to it. In some ways it's kind of like a modern interpretation of like clapboard sighting but done in metal. And so you can see even though the panels, for example, are larger and if there's really technical questions Steve and others can answer who, you know did some of this research but here you can see how this works they can do a different scale. They can have some that can step out. And you can see on the phone on the right that they create shadow line so there's a lot of a lot of ways we can work with this material. So if you want to add or any others. Here you're on mute. We have the slide that shows the actually insulated panel. Okay, I think so. Yes, so let me just say a couple of things about this Tony and then you can chime in. So this is Framingham library so what happened on that is that they went in for town funding. I think four years or three years after we established the budget and they didn't escalate it. Right, so we started this project a little bit behind the ball so we had to be very creative and the material selection for the library so we could hit the budget which we did. So this is the first time we've used this product. So the, what you see is the DS 60 and the DS 59 that yellow material is the installation so these panels come as a total unit. So it's, it's one subcontractor so it has the installation the AVB in the exterior materials. So it saves this might be a whirlwind of information for you but it saves a lot of time. And it saves money and that's why we're proposing it for this because it's, it's proved to us that it can work quite well and look beautiful. And it still looks great today and it's, it's how long has it been Tony. It's about probably six, six years plus and to follow the point, the product now is an integrated and highly insulating for an energy standpoint but the surface finishes has a has a really long lifespan in terms of like, this is not painted. So this is integral to it so we don't have the kind of maintenance issue that you might have with some other products for example. So the inherent quality of it being highly sustainable, quick to erect in the field, you know, fairly lightweight but highly insulating makes it a bit and cost effective. I think makes it a potentially viable alternative for consideration to say masonry or brick for those reasons but it has a different look. And then you can see here that particular design of the framing hand was based on this. I think that's why you're kind of seeing the whole thing large small large small so there's a lot of ways we can take this material through, but this is an example, one that we did at a library a few years ago. I just asked question to clarify, so is it about the same cost as brick or it's less expensive. We believe we Christine we couldn't get any cost in such a short period of time we're going to follow up with that. From our experience, it's less. Okay, good to know. That's why we're proposing it in part of our thing and because we've been doing libraries for a long time is we need to provide materials that are essentially no maintenance. And this is one of them. This and brick in stone, and this these are affordable and you know, stay in the test of time in terms of quality. And I, so that's exactly my question. I mean, all these options are beautiful love it pick anyone whatever you look, but my question is the long term costs I know in New England brick last forever. What about this century and the slate, is it sculpting or sculpting either way. Do they last as long as brick or am I going to have birds nesting in this in those cute little. No, you won't have birds nesting because we always worry about that because we're in the city and there's a lot of pigeons. Yeah, yeah. So but no the, there's no maintenance with this. Okay, done. And that's the beauty of it. We only did one library with a little bit of wood on it and that was Westwood, because they could have they had the budget for maintenance in most towns don't know. To far, you point those Sharon, because this is a relatively newer product, certainly compared to break and slate is inherently like break I mean, as you well know slate, like slate, I mean those products like 100 years so we don't inherently slate and break. And to your question are absolutely a long lasting and very appropriate in England. This product is is a very well made product, it is mad made. It does have a very long life but will it last 100 years I mean I don't know we don't have. It's not enough history on this it's not that old the product. I think that they, the manufacturers have been using the kind of insulated panels for a number of decades, and it's proven it's proven very well and again to this point it's very low cost and low maintenance for the most part so. But, but like anything else you know beyond a certain time. It's, it's, you know, one can only speculate. That's awesome and I'm not even necessarily looking out 100 years I'm not. I'm looking at, you know, like every five years is the town going to have to put money into so for example you mentioned the slate we have slate roofs. It's a nightmare. Those those silly panel, the pieces of slate are constantly falling down. So, would we have that same problem with the slate sculpting sculpting. It's a completely different issue and also the location of this and for various reasons that slate roofs you're obviously right I mean they're very long lasting by the course when individual slate starts to fall and break off and it isn't maintenance issue. The sculpting state actually helps because inherently it's it's thicker plus they're stacking and it's on a wall on a roof. Thank you. Oh, go ahead just been sorry just the slate sculpting wall is basically like a brick wall the way it's built up. So it's laid the same way and improves to be the same pretty much as a any masonry wall that you would see. Beautiful. Thank you. Sharon my question to you and we were talking about this yesterday. Four years ago when we were very active on this project for five or six. There was talk about redoing the slate roof on the existing building did that ever get done it was just repaired. Yeah, and it was hardly even repaired so yeah that will, there's a cost associated with that. Okay. Thank you. Okay, any further questions about this. Looking especially at DS 59 and DS 60 and how they sort of like curve down and then there's like a ledge. I'm asking because on some construction that I've been involved with we used would clapboard siding which is painted which maybe that is why there's more of a sticky element to it. So really the dirt builds up on those little ledges would maintenance like once in a while do they have to wash these or I, you know what happened with the framing ham branch here to begin. We can ask that we were still in touch with them. We're happy to ask them. I don't I think the rain washes some off Christine but it's a good question will reach out to them. I'm happy to do that. It's gotten dirty. Yeah, or if they have to wash it just I think that would be important for us to know for them. Great question. I think you can see in some ways, and I think that by the shape, the profile right with this kind of angle. That's perfect in particular to deal with the washing off water off the product so it doesn't, you know, stick, but we'll follow up on that and try to get you some more answers. Thanks. Okay. Any other questions. Thank you for showing. All right. Okay. Then the third era, number three is, is of course this glass area in between the two masses and this is essentially what we're calling curtain wall and we can explain a little bit whether technical differences being current wall and window walls and windows but it's essentially it's a product that allows you to do large areas of glass. It is, it's inherently able to do this because it's a different kind of system that is integral. So for example, and please when we show these present. This is not the design we're trying to just illustrate the use of the product so please don't interpret that as like well that's what this looks like. So, you can see in these areas here, for example, Connor is a very common. There are many current wall manufacturers that's actually one of the major ones in the United States that do all over the country. It's like this so you can see here, and like here, and in here, this is how they had a large expanses of glass. And because it's all an integrated, you know, highly developed and highly, you know, worked out detail. It allows them to do these large areas of glass and I'm sure for many of you have seen building with large expanses of glass, that's what they do. It's a current wall system. And it's, it's an able to do that, for example, here because unlike a window or window while they're finite dimensional constraints when we'll talk about it on another slide in a minute. This gives much bigger areas of glass. I don't know if you want to add anything to this. No, I think that's it Tonya and again, don't be thrown off by the images but it's it's quite common. I'm sure Craig and his team have worked with the product before as well. Okay, yes, yeah curtain wall is one of the standard materials or systems that modern buildings are made with. Right and again this what is what's illustrated in our rendering is priced. So that's currently in the price. This area of glass. Okay, I love the look of it. Just wondering about sustainability. You know, is it insulated, you know, or is it just it's in so I don't know if you want to chime in just being I don't want to hug all the fun stuff. But it's insulated glass Christine with an get on. I don't want to call it a gas inside it so it's insulated but as you see from the design it's limited where we're using these expand the expanse of glass. It's only contained it here. It's very minimal because we did take that into account. And you took it into account in terms of achieving our, our energy conservation goals. The EU. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. This glass just to remind myself is on the north side of the building. And again in terms of the use of the glass on the north side of the building. Does that affect it in any way. I mean I think that I know I think it doesn't affect that it doesn't affect the performance of it I think as you said to this point, the installation properties in the glass can inherently be achieved in different levels. And we're not proposing here, but for example, another project. Some have even got it like triple glaze like there's three pains of glass right I mean that's highly insulating. Some others have filled sometimes a product in between the glass. So, this particular product has a lot of ways to do it. And it was taken into account in terms of the overall building energy efficiency EU I analysis when we did this. So that's why we contained it to that one area and not spread it across the entire library because that's the reason. Of course it's not going to be as insulating as wall, you know solid wall would be right and one of the problems that one encounters with with this. So again I'm just sitting here thinking I wonder what what was happening in 1992 when people were talking about the skylight. No one, you know said well the skylight that's beautiful, but I wonder what happens. What are the problems that one encounters with this kind of design so every design has problems right they're not they're not, it's not perfect. Right. What are the issues that one has encountered with this kind of setup. The issues. One thing, it has to be installed properly right so that's from the get go. If it's installed properly and sealed properly. You will not have any problems for many years over time will you that you know there's a sealant that goes around it and if you want to get in the details we can do that on another call but over time the sealant may need to be redone. Okay, but I can't if that could be 20 years out. Yeah, I think to the rendering of. Thank you. It's helpful to just look at what we're talking about. I think I think I'll follow up to your question awesome to one of the pluses I think since the time that you've had issues with your skylight. There's been a lot of advancement in the technology of all of this product and it's much much better built today, even compared to current wall systems 20 years ago so building, not only because of energy issues and sustainable issues, all of these products have up their globally. So they're much better made they're much, much longer lasting, and furthermore because this is on a wall again not on a skylight. Yeah, so that that that obvious a lot of issues, avoid a lot of the issues that a skylight has, because the fact of the matter is simply on a wall, and not on a roof. So I think for those reasons alone, it's a much much higher quality product today than even would have been two decades ago. But these are all good questions. Absolutely. Okay, and there is a benefit also awesome to be on the north side so one of the challenges with this is the solar heat gain when it's on the south and west. Yeah, exactly that's for those point it's actually better than from an extent point in this instance. Okay. And then the number four, this other fairly large area of glass here is this here that we've been talking about related to this part of the library you know which contains maybe the adult portions of the collections, and then the areas looking out in the garden. And here, this is what is called a storefront system so again, this is also another example from conure but there are many, again there are many manufacturers that do this. So the main differential here versus the curtain wall system is that the storefront system has a lot of the appearance of a curtain wall but it is built up more kind of a series of parts and it doesn't quite have the same ability to expand in terms of area so curtain wall can get very large expansive glass, you know can go several stories high and go wide I mean like high rise buildings are all curtain wall systems. This system here is less expensive than curtain wall, but it's huge fairly large in areas of glass so that is what we're looking at here for those areas on that again on this rendering because these are still, you know quite big windows. So we're looking at a product that allows us to do that, but in a you know fairly cost effective way and again these are just examples that you see both down here, and also here and you know you can see there's a large areas of glass. I said within that so this is this is what is proposed in that part of the library. The difference between the two is that the curtain wall has more structural stability to it so it can span higher vertical distances store, and it's a little bit of a cost premium storefront cannot it's limited to about spinning 12 feet, and it is cheaper than curtain wall so we can only have a featured area with the curtain wall and as the project evolves, can it turn into store storefront. Yes, it would, you know, change things a little bit but again, this is what we currently have in the budget. I just have a question current library and I understand why we wouldn't want this but just in case people are wondering our current library windows open all over the place because it was that homie feel well any of these open and why wouldn't they open. They'll open. And the question is Christine how much. There's a double edged sword. The building maintenance, people hate operable windows, because people forget to shut them and it throws off the heating and cooling system. But most humans want to be able to open a window so we put it we sprinkle we sprinkle a few in it in every area so it you know in the end if it's a problem. You know, sharing can there's a device that you can just lock them. Yeah, no, so it's I'm so glad you brought this up Christine so actually the MVLC feels very strongly that as many windows as possible are operable because HVACs break down, and there is a beautiful spring and there's a beautiful summer, and there are even some beautiful summer days fall, you know, so yeah operable is the way to go. And following up and you know as we've all been experiencing COVID one of the big issues with buildings is not making them till tight like in the past all buildings were all environmentally controlled but no ability to create natural ventilation so there's clearly much more important stressing on natural ventilation so it does require being a little bit more mindful. And yes you do have to go around the library checking sure all the windows are closed before you shut it down. So there will be some of that but but for sure people absolutely love fresh air and a beautiful, you know, spring day and fall day and it's it's it's it's actually also healthy. I have just a procedural question it's nine o'clock what what is it that we need to do with these with these extra materials questions. Awesome we are sharing this with you to share the range. Ultimately, we're going to have to give you cost considerations and then then really work with you on a decision like, do you like this or do not like this or given a choice. I prefer this versus that. I would I'd be I'd be curious just to get from the group a gut reaction to that from the brick to the metal is the metal just not do you think that's just crazy talk. So I'm going to just start for myself and say crazy talk is not a word I would use but it's in the range. I, I'm thinking about the metal in relationship to the historic building. And it just the framing and building that you showed. It just for myself. It doesn't feel like that's where we would want to go. I have a question about the sculpting sculpted slate, which is, is that a usable material in different shades, for example, throughout the, what you have labeled one, one and one and two. I don't just think do you know if it comes in different colors. Well you showed it in different, I think you showed it in different colors. That was that that was brick that we showed in different colors. So go back to the slide, go back to the slide with the slate. I know for months late offers different colors of the slate, and I would imagine it holds true for this company. What I'm looking at is the one below this you see it looks like it's brownish. That's a photograph. Okay, it's just the time of day. The color changes this is this is probably much more true here. What you're seeing here and here that's kind of that bluish kind of gray color that you know you think of slate it's like that. Is it usable throughout the one and two. Yeah, I mean, the whole building. Yeah, you could. It's possible. And one thing we'll check though that because the colors are good question. Everybody knows slate is kind of in the range of grays and greens but there may be one that's a little more green that you know the group would like so we can do that investigating. So you'll look into colors. It's a limited range we're not going to get like purple. Yeah, great. There's more range than slate. Yeah. Can we go back to four so we can finish the presentation because I think we still need to hear about roofs and then we can start think about the layers of this cake. All right, so to follow your point, Christine, number five is the roof. So the roof is proposed as what we call it metal standing seam roof it has, you know, why you see these lines here that's really the standing seam is how the proof is, you know, created and put together. And I'm sure many have seen there are many, many examples grow in New England. These are just a few but again it's the way that it is done and it's sort of these interlocking, you know, roof elements that's why they create this the same effect it also helps to shed the water makes the scale, you know, and it's highly durable. And it's proven it's track record in throughout New England over decades, and the whole intent is that the roof would be this standing seam metal roof and in also the dormers to what you see here. Similarly, it's the same product same material. And of course it comes in a huge range of colors to but most of the tents towards the silver gray palette which is what we're proposing in some fashion but again there, there are variations in the color of this too but that's what we're looking at. I think it would be inexpensive as a choice. Yeah, it's it's it's a really cost effective product. Yeah, it doesn't have the maintenance issues of the, for example, the shingles that you're currently experiencing. Right. So if you go back to the Jones library rendering. There's also skylights up there which, you know, that's a sensitive issue from our previous current building. So how does that work there. Is there roofing on top of those triangles or so that we wouldn't call these skylights. No, actually, because the skylight for us is something that sits on the roof flat so it has exposure on all sides. They're really called monitors they're really like their their angle like monitors so for example they're kind of the salt juice pattern to Ellen's point so you can see here on the side I know we don't have a rendering on the back but unless it shows up in the frontier, maybe shows up in the front view let me get to that. Well, a little bit you see this in this kind of black color. So that's a roof material and it's going to be the same kind of probably standing seem metal roof on this surface. So the only area where there's glass is here, and there's a slight can't to the glass in order to capture a little bit like but literally site that the amount of that tilt can be slightly angle or can be literally vertical. Right, so you know the way it could be it could be straight up and down. And so it is not a skylight in that sense at all, because it is only monitor glasses on this side, the north facing side, and the south facing side to go back to the, you know this front view. So here, we also had proposed and I'm not sure where we are in the budget, originally that there was going to be opportunity for solar TVs, because it's south facing. So, all of these angled elements here which are called it black, I do have that opportunity to be pvs, and it's orienting rightly, you know with the sun to facing south. Perfectly. Yeah, nice. I feel like into that top room, you know, like the rendering that you all seen before in the interiors. That's going to bring up a lot of natural but north facing like into that top all diffuse so there's no direct sound like coming streaming into that top level but it'd be filled with, but which reduces of course and man for artificial lighting. I do love the saw to through idea, but that was interesting that you said it could go vertical as opposed to angle if it were vertical with that help with the, you know, preventing leaks in the future. Yeah, we have probably to some extent I mean this this is a very shallow pitch it's maybe tilting 10 degrees or 15 degrees but if we went fully you know zero degrees I mean you know up and down. Yeah, we can that's an absolute detail refinement we can we can explore if there's any concern about any of this being angle. I mean, so that can change. It's really pretty. A question about materials. It's a little hard to describe but on the ground for second floor. There's the storefront windows and they're surrounded by a white material, and then on the right on the second floor, the. It looks like roofing material edges this around the boxes out the window. And then on what we were just talking about those angle light monitors, the triangles on like the West side there so I'm wondering what, you know, again maintenance are these roof materials. What are they. No, I think we would all try to be again as low main as possible so the introduction of the metal roof would be not only here but also on these light monitors, all of that would be the same product same look so we wouldn't change it so this is metal. That's metal this is metal. So it gets consistent and then this material here I know we're. Don't remember what we carried. I think it's we carried metal white metal. Okay, so it's a metal product to its white. It's a little differentiated from this I think we wanted to create a little bit of skill because we're also seeing here on these more traditional windows. The introduction of kind of, you know, probably a white ish frame. I think it's apparently it has some not towards your historic building, which is sort of kind of white trim on the windows as well as the subdivide of light so we're thinking of that. So we did want to make a little bit of distinction here but it's subtle right because I think the whole palace kind of this warm gray tan white cream look so we're trying to keep it very calm, kind of very understated and also very respectful of your existing historic library. I want a chance to kind of disagree, not kind of disagree I'd like to disagree with Austin about the, the sentria, the metal so I don't think it should quite be off the table yet and so as an example on on the 1928 exterior wall the east side. You can see where I'm pointing right now right. So there are lots of different materials there you've got the stone you've got the siding. I don't see why we couldn't do a combination of metal and glass and and brick I'm just, I think it could look really great. And granted this is just my aesthetic whatever, whatever the full committee wants you're not going to get any complaints from me it will be awesome no matter what. But is there something to be said for the fact that this building is going to be built in 2025, as opposed to 1928 so is it really that awful to use products that were around in 2025. That's me. Well, you know what that's always a question that Sharon because we're doing a big project in Brookline, where in Brookline everybody wants wood siding, right, but this project is so large. It can't have wood siding because the client can't maintain it so we're using a hardy board that looks like wood siding, but it will never rot. And what it is it's the point being it's new technology. Yeah. And that's what I because it's we might as well use the new technology because it's less maintenance it's it's better insulating value. So that's what what we're the metal panel works for us in that sense in as does the brick. I mean the brick is tried and true. People love wood and for various reasons and it's, it's a course very appropriate in doing that. However, one thing that I think people are clearly discovering the quality of the wood today is not the quality of the 100 years ago you as many of you know the density of the wood. And when wood was harvested back then and many of them by the extent and with stood so long. It's just a simple quality of the wood was much better we unfortunately, you know, a lot of things that happen in our world and in way things are enforced and deforestation. When buildings put up in wood. These buildings do not last and you can you all know it, especially some of the more say developer type projects where it's built a certain lifespan and then after that a lot of maintenance is needed. So unfortunately, even like for example the strong, I guess museum next to this that was built out of much more ancient wood, which is why we stood the test of time. It's just made with better products and better natural materials than we could do today. And there are, there are cheaper materials that you could cloud the exterior with there's this. It's called cementitious board. But we don't we wouldn't use it on a public library it's just it's not it take it's, it's maybe cheap, but it's a long term maintenance costs that we don't think a library or town building should have to shoulder. Yeah, no, and I wasn't advocating for for wood necessarily because of those maintenance issues we can't afford to keep that up. I just like the idea of a hint of that metal. That's a very helpful thing. I hint of the metal, it sounds fine to me. I'll do it as the primary extra cladding. And here's a question of which you may not be able to answer but it would be really helpful at this point in the grossest terms to give us a sense of the cost differential between the metal cladding the, the sculpted slate and the and the brick I mean what is it in general in the ballpark. We're talking about for the course differential. We can't tell you that Austin right now because the cost of things has changed so much in the last three years. We, it's unfortunate our cost estimator was in Greece last this past week so we couldn't get anything from him. We will get have some numbers for you as soon as we get them will ship them out to you, but in our from our previous experience, the metal panel is cheaper, but let us get that data to so you can see it in black and white. That makes sense. I understand just one other thing on the cost in terms of the relative. The brick is got likely to be the most I mean what is likely to be the most expensive. The metal like take it will be the right to break. Okay, thank you. So we're trying here at this design meeting to sort of figure out how to best present for you all to present this to the Jones library building committee on Tuesday. Could you give us just like, if it's like a cake like options that we're looking at, and I know you can't give us exact prices but you could say like this would be the least expensive option. This would, we think would be the most expensive meaning whatever options. And can you change or I don't know how hard it is with your computer system to give us some renderings of these options because like, I'm open to the metal siding or whatever you know it's going to look great, but I am curious like how does that metal siding going vertical like clapboard look next to the roof metal that's going up and down and that kind of thing so how much of it can you give us options and then give us. Thank you, let me try to answer first about the rendering look. So the render who did this. They're very fast. They're based in Asia. So today is actually Dragon Festival day so they're off. But I will reach out to the render to ask, like to adjust to your point like okay, can we change the material planning to show several options like, for example, we can say, can we do an all slight look. Can we do an all brick look. And then I guess if there would be some either combination of the, maybe we just keep the slate at the bottom and go to metal. Right, so maybe those three options. And they're pretty fast. And I know that they've worked with us really well so let me fall for that I can't promise we could have that by Tuesday but I will certainly after this meeting is ends I will immediately reach out to them and just put it to them and see what they can do. And I think we're okay if it's not Tuesday, we were under the understanding that you know this is an early decision that you need to know as soon as possible so just do what's possible. I'm thinking Christina because if what we did is over this past week we looked at a bunch of options, and we, we whittled it down to these two because we think it's the most affordable for the library. What one approach we can do is we can just pick, we can say okay we're going to go in through the end of SDs in brick, and then have it priced for an alternate to be metal. We can do that. And we can make that decision I think, you know I was thinking the same thing we talked about it to have these rendered in to show the metal. If we have to do it just so people can see impact of it. So let us work on that from our end on both Ellen's issue of cost, but I think the idea of a base scheme, which I think makes sense. And then these are alternate metal or sculpting slate, you know, would be alternatives to the base scheme of all brick. So that makes sense. So when is, when is the, when's the committee meet again after Tuesday. So, this one doesn't meet again. Until the 24th or yeah well we do have one on the 16th that we could possibly if you are in a pinch we're going over comments at that point. Or wouldn't because that would be on the 10th, so it wouldn't be until the 24th. But like I said at this point. You could bring it to a Jones library meeting and maybe Austin can speak to availability on that we were thinking if this was a rush it would be Tuesday but I think it's two weeks after that. I think that's fine and that would give us time to get the renderings done so we can show people will have better sense of cost. Yeah, I think the tech what we were saying the 16th, is that what we're aiming for. Back to us or the 21st for the two meetings from now for the Jones library committee as a whole. Oh. Justine what you're the one with our dates. We're shooting for. Yeah, so pretty much the end of June. For the package. We can get this in front of folks to review the better. Right. Yeah, in order not squeeze us. Right. So Tuesday is the full committee. Tuesday is the full committee on the seventh and then again on the 21st. And I do think having renderings that show the options will be helpful. Huge. Yeah. Yeah, let me let me see what I can do. Yeah. Sorry, like Ellen. I think that showing the full committee on Tuesday. Getting people thinking about this is going to be very useful. So you've already heard interesting, you know, things about the, the design, this is going to be very important to people. If you're looking for the end of June. I think doing whatever it is that we can do on Tuesday is going to be helpful to the process because you're going to get reactions. Yeah. Questions. Let's do that. Yeah. That's a good point, Austin. Okay, so on Tuesday, you went, you know, really deep on materials and we can always refer people back to watch this video if they want more details, you know, public or whatever. But on Tuesday, again, if you can sort of give us different options of cake, like this, this and this and sort of tie them to cost. Okay. So that's it. So if we get the, that's easy to do Christine, if we get the renderings. Yeah. I don't have the renderings by then, but if you don't have the renderings, do you still want to come on Tuesday? I think, I think, I think Austin is correct. I think, and we can pair this down and not go into as much detail, just so people understand get a flavor that we're looking at two different things. And then we'll follow it up with some renderings because they're, you know, people may have a bad reaction to middle. And I just say, again, I think that we should do this on Tuesday. I don't think that you need the whole team for Tuesday. And you're going to just give people a sense just the way you've given us your some of the materials that we're looking at. I think that's the, that's the way to go. And when you, when you have renderings, you have renderings if we need to schedule another meeting to in order to help you will do that. Let's give us a preview just like we've done here. You'll get reactions. You don't need the whole, you know, the 15 people from FAA to be there. Because no final decisions are being made. This is just a preview. And you accumulate questions that people have and not answer them. Say, you know, we'll get back to you. And then there's some time as a suggestion if, if the render is able to help. My suggestion would be have, if, because we're exploring a couple of options have them tackle the metal option first. I think people are going to understand brick inherently and even probably because it's this is this and even the sculpting slave I think people can imagine that I mean we can do it but I think this metal is the one that's the most potentially in question. Let's see if I can focus and then to further save on effort. If I can have them focus on the rear rendering first versus the front just to speed up the amount of effort that's probably the one that's the most helpful if you're okay with that. I'm going to see what I can do with her to try to see what she's able to do. But in order to try to contain at least that's first out of the gate thing for next Tuesday, if it's possible to head towards that version with the on the rear rendering first. And if not, we'll do a pared down discussion of what we just did today, Austin. Yeah, exactly. Okay. I want just to backtrack on what you were saying earlier. Oh, for her SD, we could kind of just roll with this. Yeah, we could do it as an alternate Christine and we might want to talk about maybe doing a few other alternates just so we get, we can look at alternate pricing right just so we have a fallback position if, if we have extra money we can upgrade something or we need to save some money we can make some adjustments to materials. So we can do go in this as, you know, brick is the base is what's the base estimate but then asked for an alternate price to plan it in metal. And if that's because SD is rolling here. So if you all know some of you come on Tuesday and sort of, you know, give options. Would it be two weeks later than you want a decision or another couple of weeks when you're actually at the end of SD when would a decision have to be made. I think Christine now that we've paired this all down, I think we could go through SDs as base as brick and granite sculptings in an alternate material to be metal and get a price for both. And then, when we get the estimate full estimate on SDs, we can decide which way to go, because in this point, there's some, it's not, there's some technical wall details we do, but there's not a ton. And these are very similar so it's not, it's not a heavy lift from our side, and we're trying to be flexible because we're trying to keep this going and we know you guys have your committees but I think we do this often. This is not unusual, but I will note though, before we go to MHC, which is after SDs, we need to have a material selected. Okay. So, at this point, Tony, you're going to be in touch with Craig to tell us what, to update us what will actually happen on Tuesday. If you can keep Austin in the loop on that. We email Craig a lot. Yeah, we'll kind of get back in the loop and show what the status of all of this is where we are and what we can actually do. Okay. And we'll bring that up on the agenda on Tuesday will be under design subcommittee report, and that's when you would, you all would present your bid. Yes. And that meetings at 430. Okay. And we don't have to take a lot of time, you know, we can do this quick, you know, Yeah, great. I mean, I think it's, it's like Austin said it's, it's to get people thinking set expectations and, and of course cost, you know, we're, we're going to have to think of areas where we can be cost effective. Yes. Are there any other questions for FA on regard to exterior materials. I don't do you just been. Well, we thank you. I mean, it's going to, it's like Sharon said it's going to look gorgeous either way it have whatever is used and excited to see some pictures of what it, you know, finally will look like. Great. Thank you for your time. Thank you guys. Thank you all good work. I'm going to move on to item number four topics not anticipated. Thank you all. Thanks. And Craig, nothing. Nothing substantial. We did have, well, as you and Sharon know we did have a meeting with ever sourced yesterday to talk about energy use incentives and so I'll do a quick summary of that at the Tuesday library building committee to catch everybody. Yeah. But in short, there is some great opportunities out there. And I think there are some that this project will be eligible for. Fantastic. Thank you. And we'll hear about that on Tuesday. So, item number five is public comment. I don't know. We still have four at this time. If there's any attendees. I see four of you if you have a question or comment, please raise your hand at this time and we'll open it up to you. And I'll give this a moment. And I'll just also say at this time that our next meeting will be on the 16th, which is a Thursday, which is a little different to go over the ground to evaluating public comment. And our next regular meeting will be June 24. Back at the 9am time. Okay, I see one hand, Bob Pam. Welcome. Thank you. I just wanted to go off for a moment so I may have missed the opportunity. But my major concern on the exterior rear wall, the north side is that the, the bank of windows surrounded by a white surround. It's not a good idea, I think, for a couple of reasons. One, the windows appear to be floor to ceiling and floor to ceiling is, I wonder about both from a cost perspective, and from a utility perspective. They are north facing windows are by their nature far less insulating than other wall materials. So it will be bringing as much cold in as as is likely to occur anywhere. And that is problematic. And then from a from an operational perspective a floor to ceiling window means that you cannot put people directly in front of it. It would be better if the windows were smaller. They'd be cheaper. They'd be less intrusive I says, I guess into use use by patrons. It would be better if they were smaller. And one could actually sit in front of it maybe turn them into window seats of some kind but the the idea is these floor to ceiling windows, I think are just not a good idea. From a perspective of looks on the west side you've got dormers. And if you were using the equivalent of the same kind of dormers on the second floor. That would be fine and having it be a block that goes to floors with the white surround is not actually a very good look. So, I would say, avoid these floor to ceiling windows and do it on both first and second floor. Thank you. Thank you for those thoughts, Mr. Pam. And they have been noted and they'll be in the minutes. Any other comments or suggestions from the attendees as seeing now and one of our members just left so we're actually just at this very moment we're not at quorum so I'm ending the meeting we are adjourned until the next meeting. Thank you, everyone. This is very helpful. We'll see you soon, probably on Tuesday. Thanks for seeing you. Bye everybody. Thank you, Angela.