 In this episode, you're going to hear the story of somebody who was able to establish service design inside a corporate environment and go from a one-man operation to a team of over 250 designers. You're going to hear how that happened. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, I'm Alex. This is the service design show and this is the episode 133. Hi, I'm Mark and welcome back to the service design show. This show is all about helping you to uncover the secrets of service design all to help you design services that make a positive impact on people and business. Our guest in this episode is Alex Guazelli. Alex is the head of design at the largest bank in Latin America. And I'm really excited to have Alex on the show as we all know that making service design work inside an organization that doesn't have a design heritage is really hard. It's really hard to survive in that environment as a service designer, let alone drive. And somehow Alex managed to do it. And I'm really curious to learn how. So in this episode, you're going to learn how to pick the right projects to work on and how to avoid the ones that just delay and distract you. You're going to hear how you can make sure the design isn't seen as just a nice to have, but as a rather important strategic tool. And finally, how you can collect evidence that helps you to prove your contribution to the business. I think all of these are important and key topics, even if you're currently not working in house. If you find topics like this interesting and want to keep developing yourself as a service design professional, consider subscribing to the channel, because we bring a new video like this every week or so. So that's about it for the introduction. And now let's jump into the conversation with Alex Guazelli. Welcome to the show, Alex. I'm Mark. Awesome to have you on. You've been recommended by a good friend of the service design show, Luis Alt. I'm happy to have you on. We'll be talking about very interesting topics, especially about growing, scaling and letting service design thrive inside a huge organization. And I'm sure that people who are listening and watching this episode right now are curious. Who is Alex and what organization are we talking about? So could you maybe give a 30 second introduction into who you are? Right. So I'm Alex. I'm the head of design at Itaú and Ibanco Bank. And Itaú is the largest financial institution in Latin America. 96,000 employees, more than 56 billion of clients in retail. So it's a huge company. Okay. That sounds like a very interesting position to be in. And I'd love to know how you're putting service design on the map within such an interesting company and a probably very complex environment. And that's going to be the theme of our conversation. But as always, we have a rapid fire question round with five questions for you, where the goal is that you answer them as quickly as possible. So that we get the opportunity to get you to get to know you a little bit better even more. Are you ready? Yeah. What's always in your fridge, Alex? Fruits, vegetables. Yeah, okay. Works for me. As soon as possible, as quickly as possible. The next question is, which books are you reading, if any, at this moment? So I'm reading The Unbound Ocean of Consciousness. It's a great book. I'm loving it. Well, at the link in the show notes to that, I'm going to add that one to my reading list for sure. Next question is, which superpower would you like to have? Prototyping. Awesome. And what did you want to become when you were a kid? Maybe a soccer player. Of course, you're from Brazil. And the final question is, when did you get in touch with service design? In 2015, we will listen to this new term. So I think that we, as designers, we like a lot those new terms. And I was interested in about it. And I definitely love it, the concept. Now, would you've managed to accomplish with your team within the organization? It's quite interesting. I think it's an interesting success story for service design. Usually, these stories on the outside look great. But I'm sure you've had a lot of struggles, failures and learnings along the way. And those are usually the most interesting things to highlight. So we're definitely going to get into that. Now, I'm curious if you could give a little bit of context in how service design started in the company and how it looks today. So in 30 seconds, how can we compare the day one situation versus how it looks today? Yeah. So at the day one, it was just me and one guy. His name is William Spieger. And he helped me to evolve the service design area. And now we are 16 people in this area, just taking service design. But in total, we are 250 people, 250 designers. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a lot. That's a large design team. Now, that's an interesting journey because you've not only been able to survive within a corporate environment, which is already hard for many designers, but you've sort of... Survival is a good word. Yeah. Survival is a good... It's definitely... It's not the most friendly environment for many designers, but you've been able to try it. You've been able to make design grow. And I'm curious to learn some of your lessons. Now, let's go back to the moment where it sort of all started. How did service design start within the company? Where did it start? Well, I'm into the marketing area at that time. So design was a smaller area. In fact, we were about 15 people at that time. It's a very, very small area. But we had different professionals from different areas like graphic design, digital design, and industrial design. But we didn't have any service designers at that time. So... And I saw an opportunity to evolve this area just because we want to be more strategic. That's the thing. So at that time, service design helped us to get closer to the real problem, to go into the roof of the problem. And it was fantastic because we take some small tasks, some small jobs in a market context. And it was amazing how, first of all, the people around us engage much more in their jobs. So we did this kind of engaging process. And they love it. They saw, whoa, this is so, so different the way, the methodology that you apply at our job is so different. And they engage so much with us and with their problems. So we facilitated the process. And it was amazing. And we took just some few jobs, me and this friend. And I don't remember yet, but I think that in one year, we had an area, a service design area with four professionals. And after that, we expand that in much more different jobs and different services in design at the company. We're going to dive deeper into that moment where those people were so engaged and you were able to grow. But I'm curious right now, what are some typical challenges that your team works on? I know that this will sound strange, but it was in marketing, in advertising context. It was very, very different. And why? Because we were in a marketing area. And in Brazil, advertising is very, very powerful. And Itaú, it's an amazing announcer here in Brazil. So and we did some jobs related to advertising. And at the time, we worked with some agencies to better define the strategy of that communication. It was very, very different. But for the people from marketing area, it was so interesting to do that kind of job. Because the communication processes, it was so automatized. And we went with the service design with human-centered design approach. And that's changed everything in the way we developed the strategy of the campaign. Okay. So you were able to help advertising and marketing to come up with new campaigns through a different approach. And apparently, that's what they were looking for. Now, a lot of service designers who are in-house sort of struggle to get beyond the stage of just being a facilitator or running workshops. And it's really hard for them to sort of prove and show success that you actually contributed to a better marketing campaign. And therefore, it's really hard to then justify that you need four extra people or 15 extra people. What do you think was it in your projects that made you able to clearly show your contribution and therefore provide yourself room to grow? Yeah. So first of all, you were definitely right, Mark. Because from the beginning, we know that we have to do the product, not an advertised campaign. It was very clear for me. But it was a way to introduce service design inside the company and inside marketing. So what was very interesting, it was that if you think about this communication strategy, you will probably see a lack of or a failure in the product. And that was the way we introduced service design before at the process. How can you improve the product to do a better communication after that? So that was the idea. Is this something you can share with us? Because this is interesting, you found a problem or a pain point in the business and for the customers. Can you share what it was so that we have an idea? Yeah, Mark. For example, if you were communicating, I don't remember yet, but exactly the product. But let's take an example. For example, you were talking about a sort of communication in a retail product. When you start to come up with the ideas about the communication, you saw some failures, some gaps in the product. And we started to say, okay, let's put these on the backlog. And we can talk about this later. For example, a product related to foreign exchange, for example. So we can do nothing now. It's impossible to change now. We have to communicate that, but we can go beyond and we can work on it after that. And with this marketing team, we started to create some space to think about the problem, the real problem, not the communication problem. That was the idea. And of course, as you said, as a designer, you always want to evolve to develop the product. It was a kind of frustrating to deal with advertising, to deal with communication. But it was the opportunity that we had at that time. So it was very interesting to do this. And after that, we started to prove ourselves in those product processes. Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about this. How did you prove? Because this is, again, one of the major challenges in service design. How do you actually prove that you're contributing to success? What does proof look like? So, Mark, in a large company like us, there's one thing that matters, money, or you save costs. That is much more easier. And I recommend for designers to work on it. So, or you can save costs, or you can earn money. So for us, it was easier to prove our value in terms of efficiency, in terms of efficacy. And I like to share with you some words that our internal stakeholders say, not my words. So what they say was, so if we were working alone on this project, we will discover the problem in three years. But with you, we did that in just one month. So this is a huge outcome. This is very important. You know? Yeah. And the thing to highlight here, which is really interesting, your proof is anecdotal. Like, you don't have hard data, because the person who tells you that otherwise they would have taken three years to solve that problem, like there is no comparison between your approach and the other approach is somebody's gut feeling. And that's enough. Like, I'm having a lot of conversations with service designers who are searching for scientific proof and data-driven things, which sometimes are very valuable. But if somebody who has, I don't know, 10, 20, 15, 25 years of experience within an organization comes up with such a testimonial, that's just as equally valuable as evidence, right? That's what I'm hearing you say, at least. Oh, yes. And I will tell you another thing that sounds like this, for example, engagement. What they say to us is, so this process is so engaging, this design process or design thinking is so engaging that we can produce better. We are happier. So this is other metric that is, of course, is not so quantitative, of course. For example, you can measure the ENPS, for example, it's something that we measure now. This is very good. But at the very beginning, this engagement, this excitement was so powerful, so important to us to evolve the service design inside the company. Okay. Now, you're really getting me fired up here because I do see that the design process is very engaging and people don't consider it as work. They see it as a very fun activity and almost feels like play, which is very good at the same time, but maybe diminishes the value. But my question here would be like, who cares? So you and I think it's important to have fun at our work because we believe that when you are happy and engaged, your productivity increases. But that's the designer's point of view. Who did you find in the organization who actually said, yes, this is an important metric we need to focus on and allowed you to continue to work this way? Yeah. And this question, Mark, lead us to the, I would say the early beginning, but the second phase of our service design area. Because of course, we had those opportunities to evolve the product. And of course, when you go into those challenges, you have to be focused on different metrics. For example, customer engagement, customer retention, adoption, all those things that of course, you can prove by numbers. And that's of course, really, really important. And at the beginning, we didn't understand or it wasn't clear for us what were the main metrics to focus on. And that was a failure. Of course, it is important to share, review some failures. And we learned that in a hard way. And why? Because as we started to work on different kind of jobs, not exactly communication, but products, they started to give us some side job opportunities, some opportunities that were not so important. And what I learned and what I what I recommend this, so try to prove and try to work and try to prove your value in something that is really important. And at that time, we try to select better or huge problems, a big problem, a big problem that you have to solve, you know, not just for a small group of people, but massive and a huge problem. And we at the second phase, we started to look at so what the real question, what's the real problem that you have in terms of the strategy, not just the problem itself or not just what you think is the better way to solve the problem. But what's the real problem? What's the problem of the company? And of course, you can learn that revenue, profit, this is the main things that a business owner has to focus on. Okay. A lot of things to unpack here. What I find interesting in your story is that when you started with marketing, the sort of lucky benefit you had is that marketing is very close to operation. So whatever you come up with, they're able to put into practice like in the next campaign. So I can imagine it's it's quite easy to show impact from your work quickly. When you move into other areas of the business where the distance to operation becomes bigger, it takes more time, it becomes more complex, the problem gets bigger. It gets harder and harder to talk about your contribution to the solution. So how did you deal with that when you started to work on bigger problems? In fact, with a lot of frustration. I would say that because one thing that a service design shows is so when you take a bigger problem, when you take a massive problem to solve, you won't solve it in one day. And other problem is sometimes you are far from the delivery process. And that's the thing. So and this is something that five years from the beginning, we started to change in our process. So of course we have to get those service designers, not just with the discovery process, but with the delivery process. And this is something Mark that is much more structural than other thing. So we started to connect those service designers with the business community, just for them to get closer to the delivery. Yeah. And this is a very interesting topic again, because we are great in the discovery phase, we are great at research, we are great at strategy. But if strategy doesn't get followed up like we're just coming up with great ideas that aren't that great. So what did you do in practice to actually get service designers or service design closer to delivery? How did you change the organizational structure? What changed? Well, first of all, before a structural organizational change, we started to select projects where I can discover and deliver. So and this is very interesting because as a service designer, you will see that people will love the process and people will give you more opportunities. But this second phase is what kind of product that I will do, what kind of job that I will do. And one practical thing is, so try to get closer to a stakeholder that gives an opportunity to deliver the process, not just to do a facilitation process. So a stakeholder is something that you have to pay attention to it. Second thing is, is this process something that you really can deliver? We are able to deliver something or we are just discovering. So in my case, this stakeholder, this business owner has this technical, for example, technological team with him because technology is something that you will work on. So you have to work, we have to deal with it. So ask this question, so can we deliver or what's your goal when you have to deliver this process? So those questions that getting you closer to deliver, this is something very important because otherwise we will have a lot of jobs, but a lot of concepts, a lot of discoveries, not the possibility to deliver something. And other thing that is very important is, maybe you as a service designer, you can deliver, you don't have the skill, for example, to do an industrial design deliver or an app deliver. But you as a service designer play a very important role in not breaking the communication between discover and deliver. So and this is very important. So you have to have a good documentation, a good communication with the delivery team. Yeah, and you're basically becoming the user's advocate, not the devil's advocate, but the users or the customer's advocate. And what's great about the story is I like how you're selecting projects and clients by being very critical at the start of, okay, let's assume that we do the discovery phase successfully. Let's make that assumption. What happens next? How do you plan to move forward with the insights that we have? Do you have the budget? Do you have the resources? Will you be able to follow up on? Because if that's not the case, then you as a service designer just are a researcher or a customer insights department, which is also fine, but don't let people confuse that with doing service design because the responsibilities and expectations around service design are different compared to customer insights. So asking your stakeholder or your potential client about what they plan to do and how they plan to implement and follow up on your insights and findings is key. Exactly. And now, Marc, if you ask me, for example, what I would love to have at the beginning of our journey, I would say OKRs. Objectives and key results. Yeah. Objectives and key results because you can ask. So for the stakeholder, for the business owner, for example, how this project or how this process will help the company's OKR, the main strategy of the company, how can this process will make this business grow? And now, I would say in a kind of third phase that we are living now. So we are not in marketing area anymore. We are in a business area. So design, we changed and I managed this merger between design, service design and UX. And now we are in, we are at the business area. So now we can talk much more about objectives and key results to have the answers of those questions. First of all, and second, now we are getting in the small communities, sometimes small, sometimes bigger communities, it doesn't matter. But in communities, business, technology and design. And these are helping us a lot to get this process of discover and delivery, not as a phase, but in a continuous process. So how does that look in a continuous process? So you have to pay attention and not break, discover and deliver. How do you do that? So how to do it? First of all, thinking about OKRs. So ask those questions and sometimes not just ask, but try as a designer to evolve the OKRs, to build the OKRs together. This is something very important. Second thing is, now I'm having those service designers outside the squads, outside the release trains in those communities. This is something that we knew, a new term in our conversation, but we work in the squads and we work in a group of squads that we call release trains. And what we are doing, Mark, is to have those service designers, researchers and writers as a cross-functional team that works inside this community, but not inside the squad. So and we established a communication between this group of cross-functional team with the other designers that works inside the community. But the difference is we can have these service designers outside the community. For example, let's take an example of one community, a community of insurance, a community of credit card, for example. So they work inside the community, but they don't work inside I-squad. So they are a kind of cross-functional team that works with our team that is inside the squad. So this is very important to establish a communication. It's very different, for example, from the beginning. We were in a marketing area just working in some projects in very, very far from the delivery, very, very far from the business community. And this is a way that we connect, discover and deliver in a continuous process. So if I understand correctly, design is almost structured like, it's not a staff function, but I'm looking for the word where it's not tied anymore to a specific project just like HR isn't or just like finance isn't. It's just inside the company to make sure that the company actually is doing the thing it is supposed to do. So I don't recall the English phrase, but is that how we should? Design has become just like HR. It's supporting the organization. Yes, I think that the word supporting, it's very precise to define how we were in the past kind of supporting area and what we are trying to become. So we are trying to become a part of the product. So a real triad between business, design and technology. And when you are a part of the product or when you become one of the owners of the product, you can do much better in this process of continuous discovery and continuous delivery. Okay, so that's another interesting thing that you actually become part of. You become the owner. You get the responsibility to make this a success rather than having somebody else calling the shots and you being an external entity. That's the idea, Mark. That's the idea. So I think that, and this is not something, for example, in our culture, this is not easy, Mark. What's the hard part about it? The mentality, the mindset. Because the mindset at the beginning was, okay, I'm not part of the product. I'm just a supporting team. So I would go at this point. So what we are trying to do is to change the designer's mentality to become an owner of the product. And this is not exactly easy, because if you take our culture, our culture, for example, the business owners in our company have so much power. And Mark, what is interesting is the designers became to think, so if they are the owner, so I will go to this because it doesn't matter what I do, because I can deliver, I can influence the product. So what we are trying to do is to change the designer's mindset. There's no evil outside. There's no enemy outside. We are inside the company. We have to think as owners. So this is something that we are trying to change. And I think that the mindset is the main thing. That's interesting, because I do feel the pain of designers not being able to influence important decisions. There's always somebody else calling the shots. There's always somebody else who holds the budget and eventually says, let's ship it, or we don't ship it. And usually, designer is not in the position where they can say, hold on, this is not according to the specs or the standards that we have set as a design team. This can't go out the door, right? But it's a great responsibility to say no. It's a great responsibility. So you have to be prepared to say, hold on. And how can you do it? What are the evidence that say so you have to hold this process? It's a huge responsibility to do it. And what is the evidence to be able to say no? What does convince the rest of the team, your leadership to actually listen to you and don't ship if you say it shouldn't be shipped? Yeah, I can say that we are very mature in this process. We are trying to get a better way to do it. But I think there are two main pillars. So what is the value of this product? And as a designer, you can work a lot on value. So can you discuss the value, not the price, not the budget, not things that are much more related to viability, but value, value for the client, of course, not value for me as a designer, not value for you as a technological team, or even a business, but value for clients. So you as a designer can make evidences about it. Is it work or not? For example, a user will change what you are doing as a designer for other problems that he, for example, already have or not. This is something that is very important and something that a designer can influence a lot. And second pillar is usability. So can user use the product? Can user learn faster your product, something more related to usability or ergonomy if you are talking about industrial design? So those pillars are very important to discuss because in my experience, what a company will talk is much more about can we build this and this is visibility, this is much more related to technology. And even more, can we afford this? This is viability. So if you as a designer, if you are not able to discuss technically, practically about value and usability, you will fail in the influence. So sometimes the designers complain a lot, complaining is not an evidence. You have to build evidence in terms of user experience and usability. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. And it's unfortunately a scale that is under underdeveloped and underrepresented in the design space. We mainly talk about the craft of design, but not so much how to talk about value and how to get buy in for it and how to be very also for ourselves understand what the value is that we're creating. I don't think we're doing that enough. And it's not a coincidence that I run a program on how to actually get buy in for service design, because I really do think if we don't manage to do it better, we'll become irrelevant. People will stop listening. They will listen even less than they are doing today if we cannot show and articulate and clearly communicate what value we bring to the table. And as I mentioned, Mark, we are not mastering this topic. I know that we are in a mid level of maturity. But we know that this is a goal. So being an owner is a great responsibility. And you have to be able to deal with that with that with your arms, with your tools. And what I'm really convinced is that as a designer, you have a lot to contribute to this, a lot. I always say to my team that we will change the bank, our bank. And I really believe that because if you think about those pillars in terms of value, value for clients, value for users, and if you think about usability, we have a lot to do. And that's us. We as designers have to do it. In every speciality, in every discipline of design, writing, data, service design, business design, strategy, product design, visual, art, in terms of art, so we have a lot to do in this conversation in this topic. If you look back on your journey and you're still going strong on it, but you identified three stages, like starting and marketing and branching out of marketing and now becoming a cross-functional, organizational function. What are some of the most important lessons that you've learned along the way? And maybe what were some of the biggest challenges that you had to overcome throughout these stages? So we mentioned that in our conversation, Mark. You can do, first of all, you can do anything without talent. So the designers, the talent of the designers makes the difference. So manage the situation of uncertainty, of frustration, not doing the product, not assassin the deliver. This is something very, very hard. So how to do it? You have to resist. You have to have one goal, to believe in design, to believe in the power of design, to have a strategy. In our example, my strategy is of course to have a broader scope of design and a high maturity of design and try to do this owner of the product. So this is the strategy to keep the focus on this strategy. And sometimes you have to to agree with this frustration. It sometimes is really frustrating not to influence the product, but on the other hand, you have to evolve. You have to develop those tools that I mentioned before to become this frustration and turn this frustration into something that it really changes the product. This is the first thing. I think it's a combination of the strategy and resilience. So this was a question about lessons and challenges. I'm also curious, you must have faced objections to your way of working, to your approach, to your ideas. What would you say are some of the common objections that you've heard over the years? So something that came to my mind is to do a fluffy job and not an objective job. And Marc, sometimes I would say that those complaints and those observations are really correct. And what I've learned to do it is, so try to connect your jobs to Oak Yars. I really recommend that. If you don't have Oak Yars in your organization or because in the early phase or because it's a huge company, so try to learn that. I did that because of it, because of this pain point too. Oh, you are doing a fluffy job. So why is fluffy? What am I doing wrong? So if you understand Oak Yars, if you understand how to do it, probably as a designer, you will make the Oak Yars with the team. You are not just receive the Oak Yars, but you will influence from the beginning of the process. And this is, I'm happy that you're so explicit about Oak Yars. I'm a big believer in them as well. Now what this helps to do, and I think this is a crucial aspect, is it helps you to connect your day-to-day work to the objectives of the project, the business unit, the company, and whenever somebody approaches you and you get the story about service design being intangible, being very playful, you will have a very clear story about what you're trying to contribute to and how it contributes to the overall goals of the company. If you don't have that story, it's really easy. It's really hard to combat that objection. We have to have that story. It's so helpful. And Marc, to have this story complete, to get the end of the story, you also have to connect to delivery. This is something that I learned in the process and it was very hard. It was very frustrating. And what I learned to it, so as a leader, as a head, you have to influence this structure. This is all their kind of design, a structural design. So I don't like those words connected to design, but you have to influence the way the company is structured. This is something that I do now as a head. So we try to put this area in a correct place, like a football game, a soccer game. So if you play in a bad position, in a run position, you will not evolve, you will not do the goal. So sometimes you have to change the structure to pull the designers in a correct place. Yes, I agree. And what's interesting about your story is that you didn't let a quote-unquote suboptimal structure prevent you from still being able to show success. Because your first story is about being in marketing. That's probably not the ideal situation for design in a mature organization to be in. But that's what you had to work with. And when you are in that position, you cannot complain that the structure isn't in place. You have to make it work. You don't have to complain at all, Mark. You don't have to complain about the resource. You don't have to complain about the structure. So you have to be resilient. You have to pay attention in the opportunities. And of course, as I mentioned before, pay attention to the stakeholder, someone that helps you to do a great job and a meaningful job that is really connected to the strategy of the company. And sometimes to go, how can I say, under the radar, to go outside the spotlight. So this is good also. For example, at the beginning, me and this professional, Spiga, we had opportunities that are not so interesting. But we try to prove the results in a fast way, in a different way, thinking differently. So being under the radar, being outside the spotlight, gives you an opportunity to fail. And this is also good because failure is part of the process. This is maybe a buzz word or a phrase that is very, very used in many situations, but it is real. And sometimes failing under the radar, it's better to fail in a very, very big job. Yes. And again, what I'm hearing you say here is that bringing service design into a large organization is, of course, it's a journey. And you have to be prepared to go the journey and success looks different in every stage of the journey. The challenge is maybe that we already see those successful companies who have, on the outside, figured it all out and we want to beat her. But if your organization isn't ready, isn't there yet, you cannot let that frustrate you. You have to understand that it's a how long have you been doing this six, seven years? It takes a while. It takes a while and you have to have that patience. Or if you don't, you have to find a different job and you have to understand what success looks like at different levels. Exactly. That's it. You are absolutely right. And of course, I mentioned talent. You have to work in a large company like I work. You have to be resilient. You have to persist because if you don't have this mindset, you'll probably burn out. Yeah, that's unfortunately what I've also been seeing. People get disappointed with the field and leave the design field in general. And that's exactly the opposite of what we want. We need more people designing services, not less. Now heading towards the end of our conversation, I'm curious like if you project your journey forward to the next three years, what are your next steps, your next objectives? So first of all, Mark, as a head of design, you have to have a strategy. And in my case, we know that we are not mature enough that you have another layer of maturity. And this is something that I project. And what is this level? It is really to help the company to grow. And you cannot do it without working in the strategy level. So this is something that we are not ready now, that we have to evolve ourselves in terms of discuss the product to produce our evidences. And at the end of the day, negotiate the product in other level in a different way. So what I project is if you are well succeed in doing this evolving process of doing the product, we can work in other aspect in other level. And this is very, very related to service design. Because in a large company, each business owner will take care of your businesses. And this is not wrong. But if you think in a customer, if you're thinking customer centricity, you know that one user uses different financial services. And as a designers, how can you optimize the system and not optimize a part or one business? This is something that I project to achieve this strategic level. You have to work not just in the part, but in the whole system and influence the whole system. And I really believe, Marc, that if you can work in the whole system, you can earn much more money. I really definitely know that if you can achieve this stage, it will help a lot the company to grow. And then you get onto systemic design, systems design. And then that requires quite a long journey and a lot of perseverance and a lot of courage. I'm really curious to hear how your situation will be in three years. Maybe we'll do a sequel episode. Now, Alex, if people remember one thing from this episode, I have a suspicion what it will be, but what do you hope it is? A strategy. Do your strategy. Follow that with resilience. That's the thing. Right. And believe in the scaling design. So you can do it with one hero. You are not a hero. I'm not a hero. You have to scale your design team. And so prove your value and scale your design team. I really believe that. And I'm here. So when I started as a head, I managed a team with 15 people. And now we are 250 plus 100 outsourced designers. And we are 15 service designers, maybe a little bit more 20 service designers. So develop your strategy, resilience, and scale your design team. And you're bringing a message of hope here, because it is possible. You just have to keep going. Just keep going. Don't let short-term disappointments maybe discourage you. Just keep going. And eventually, you'll succeed. Alex, there are so many other topics that I would love to go in with you about building a service design team. What talent? How do you attract the right talent? But those are topics for a different conversation. For now, thank you so much for coming on and sharing openly your lessons, your failures, your successes with the service design show community. So thank you so much, Mark. You do a great job. It's unbelievable your channel. So thank you so much for this opportunity. And I hope to talk to you in three years. In three years for sure. Maybe we'll do it even sooner. Thanks again, Alex. Awesome that you made it all the way till the end of the conversation. I really hope you got something useful out of it. And if you did, make sure to click that subscribe button so you don't miss any future conversation. And if you're looking for more, check out the next video that I've got lined up for you. See you there.