 So I'm going to call the meeting to order and so the first thing I'm going to do is ask the counselors who are with us remotely to introduce themselves. Lauren, would you go ahead first? We're getting, except for Jack, could you mute? Yeah, thanks. Okay. Okay, you should be able to speak now, Lauren. There we go. Lauren Hurrow, City Councilor from District 1. Okay, and Jennifer. Hi, Jennifer Morton, District. Okay. Great. Thank you. All right. So just to, let's see, is there, I'm going to speak a little bit more. Check, check, check. One, two. We good. Okay. Do you hear that echo? I did. You got to make sure you're actually. I've hit my sound. Yeah, I. You're. Your laptop is picking up your vocals. Oh, and it's also like, I can hear myself coming out of your computer. I know, but no. His laptop is not muted. I can see it on my screen. Yep. Well, that says it's off. Check, check, check. One, two. Hello, hello. Check, check, check. I think, I think we're good now. Oh yeah. No, that's probably true. Yeah. No, I just mean, she doesn't. Just speak. That's right. That's right. Yep. Yep. That's right. Okay. I think we're good now. It's okay. All right. So to. Just. Introduce some of the expectations. So if you're joining us remotely, if you would change your name to be your first and last name so I can address you properly, that'd be great. When you speak, if you could start with your name and say where you live. We ask that you keep your comments to two minutes or less and. And Donna, you're going to help us out with that, letting folks know sort of where we're at with that. And then if you haven't something to say about a agenda item, you can make that comment. As we get towards that item in the agenda, if you have something to talk about that's not on our agenda, that's for general business and appearances. And just make sure that you're recognized by me to speak. We don't generally get into like back and forth. So try to keep your comments sort of all together. And yeah, keep it germane to the topic. All right. I think that is it. Just in terms of reviewing and approving the agenda. I don't have any information to change any of the agenda items or orders. Does anyone else have information about changing the agenda? Okay, so with that, we'll consider the agenda approved. And we're going to move on to general business and appearances. So this is an opportunity for any member of the public to address the council on any topic that is otherwise not on our agenda. And we'll start with folks who are with us in person. Would anyone like to make a comment? Yeah, we could. Let me just think about where it makes sense to move that. One thought. So. I expect that we will go into executive session. And that is a part of a few executive sessions. So one thing that we could do is if you would like to make any comments, we could just take your comments early. Would that be useful? Okay, let's plan to do that. Okay. Actually, if you, how would you feel about making your comments during general business and appearances? Would that be acceptable? So during this time, like right now. Okay, great. Great. Yeah. Just so I know anyone else on just so we, we know anyone else wish to make a comment during general business and appearances. It's in person. Okay. All right. So now, now is an okay time. If you'd like to. Fair enough. Yep. Cameron is going to. Yes. Actually, that would probably be the easiest. Yeah. No worries. I broke this down. So. Oh, you're so good. Evening. My name is Thomas. Evening. My name is Thomas. I live in the lane shops here in Montpelier. I was very recently appointed to Montpelier public art commission. I have yet to attend meeting in my official capacity. As mission members. However, I did attend a meeting on the 22nd of July. As an interested member of the community. It is this meeting that has resulted in agenda item number 13. I spoke. I spoke. Well, I spoke with the chairperson of the art commission. Joyce this afternoon. And was astounded by what he told me. He said that there was a request before the city council. To have my appointment rescinded. He said that this was because some members of the commission. Felt threatened and unsafe by me. That I had made offensive remarks and that I was sexist. He advised me to quietly agree to yield. Otherwise he said things could get messy. Everyone could be dragged through the mud. Presently I am the only one who has mud on them. I have no intention of turning this meeting into some sort of tribunal. I simply want to ask the city council. If they can take action to rescind my appointment. I would like to point out that my only appearance before the commission. Was as a member of the public. I was outside the circle so to speak. And as such was free to express contrary views. I realize that being a commission member necessitates a cooperative spirit, which I do embrace. Finally, I feel ambushed. I was informed of this agenda item number 13. I was informed of this agenda items 6 hours prior to the city council meeting. I should like to know how the art commission members discuss this issue at the last commission meeting via emails or both. Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much and and we'll we'll follow up on on all of that. So thank you. Um, I mean, we've got to go into executive session, et cetera. So, oh, we've got to go into executive session when it comes up. But thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, um, wait, or should I be or we won't be discussing it for a while. Right. I can answer one of your questions. I believe I can answer one of your questions. I believe. Uh, it's my understanding that the commission as a group has never discussed this that that we received a question, a couple of individual members asking that this be considered. So just, yeah, but no, no, to my knowledge, no meeting. And the city council has not discussed this yet. So they have no, there, there's no direction. This is their first time considering it. Oh, was it the actually requested the this as an agenda item? I came from the chair for more Joyce. Okay. All right. Thank you. Um, anyone else who's with us in person wish to make a comment. Okay, great. And so we'll go to folks who are with us virtually anyone with this online wish to make a comment. I'm not seeing anyone you can raise your hand using the raise hand icon under reactions, or you can turn your video camera on and just wave or you can just turn your mic on and let us know. Okay, I'm not seeing anyone so we're going to keep going. All right, so on to the consent agenda. Is there a motion jack. For the discussion. In favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay, great. So it is unanimous. So we don't need to do roll call so that the consent agenda passes. So, thank you for that. So we're going to go on to committee appointments for the conservation commission. I don't see Phyllis Rubinstein on or Sienna. Tuna. I apologize if I'm mispronouncing your name. Nor in person right so just checking though are as any of those folks here. Okay. Is there a motion regarding a pointing Phyllis Rubinstein, Rubenstein and Sienna to to and I, I apologize to, or would you like to go into executive session either way to the commission. Okay, further discussion. Okay, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay, great. So that is all in the post you want to post. Okay, so that is unanimous so thank you Phyllis and Sienna we are grateful for your stepping up. So on to the homelessness task force. Membership. So, the homelessness task force has been being pretty regularly now for three years and has still pretty much got the, the initial appointees working on it and has run into some issues with quorum. We met today actually it had seven of the nine. So that was great. I usually was five and often four, which is not a quorum. And so at the prior week scheduled meeting on, on September 7, there were only four people so they asked if the council could consider re advertising for more interest. And part of it is there are, there are two council reps and council member Morton has been pretty clear that she can attend because of work conflict. So, and, and, you know, council member Casey has been attending as, as he can, and the police department is out of representative and given their staffing they just haven't been able to attend so part of it was, you know, to give the chance for those current members to re up if they choose, see if there's more interest we certainly have had a couple of members of the community that have been very regular attendees and actually active participation with participants in the conversation who I think may wish to actually join the task force I don't want to speak for them but it would I would think they are they would. And so I think the question was, would the council be okay with us re advertising and also revisiting whether they want to counsel rep and if they do who who would it be and can they attend. So that was kind of the range of questions that I was asked to share with the council, Jack. When I saw this on the agenda, my initial reaction was that this is pretty uncontroversial and we could probably have put it on the consent agenda but I think to get as many people who are viewing as possible to be aware of that I decided not to request that I think this is a good idea I think that it's it's been a big commitment for people to be on for so long and they meet with the more frequently than almost any other commission that we have I think and so. So people put in a lot of work on it, which I praise them for, but I'm sure there are other people in the community who are probably interested. And, and so I would encourage people. I think you should put it out put it out to recruit more members and I would encourage people to volunteer. The other thing that I thought of that has come up in the context of the housing committee that was recently formed is that we created some committees that homelessness task force is one the housing committee is another one that don't have designated terms for members. And, and I just think in general, it's probably a good practice for us to start designated terms, whenever we appoint people because I think people don't don't want to quit if they if they think they're they're kind of a permanent appointment, even if they really think it's it's time for them to get off and so that kind of structure is something I think we should keep in mind as we as we proceed. So I don't think we need a motion. Manager should do it. Yeah, Connor and then did you have your hand up to care so then we'll go Donna. So I agree with everything Jack has said and you know if you look at our strategic planning exercises homelessness was near the top like I think three or four different categories here. It's an issue that's not getting better. I think like today we heard some numbers that suggest it's becoming a much bigger problem in our community and will continue to do so with some of the state cutbacks there. And this committee I think like, while unwieldy sometimes maybe with the membership there. It's been quite effective, as far as recommending budget items as far as the voucher program, the liaison position and many other items that we have adopted here. So we want a good partnership and we want them to be effective and meeting the quorum there. We had a discussion today, and maybe we could kind of couple it into this but you know the public restroom committee hasn't met in over a year since it's been established here. And there was pretty clear sense from the committee that, you know, I said, I like one worry I had and I'll just put it out there was I was worried that it would be a bit duplicative of the homelessness task force, because many of the issues like aren't the twined Peter Kalman I'm glad he's on there. He pretty much disagreed with that. And as I think about it I completely agree with Peter. It's a, it's an issue that goes beyond homelessness. And we do have the sort of crew that we appointed over a year ago but maybe we could extend the same offer out to see if there are new members who would want to step up on that committee, who couldn't tell that can tell people from state government I think the business community and have wide representation so I think we do have some things that like we have the RFP out for maybe a warming shelter. And other services that were currently, you know, we're going to be waiting a bit for results on, but I don't know if we need to wait any longer on that. At the point that it comes we can incorporate those ideas. So we'd like to see that as well. Anyways, so just throwing that out there. So sorry, I just want to make sure I'm clear so potentially also re advertising. I think for the public restroom committee. Yeah, but I'll volunteer to, you know, I think I am on the committee but if we want to do in the next couple weeks and put an email out just have an initial meeting, I'd be happy to organize that. Okay, so, so not re advertising for it just actually meeting, or are we re advertising. You know, I'd have to look at what the composition is now right because I imagine people like other be like, I forgot I applied for the bloody thing. Over a year. So, maybe we could just do some individual outreach to the people we did a point, make sure they're still on board, and then re advertise. I think it'd be important. Okay. Done. I think it needs a bigger discussion. I'm still interested in the palette community and having the community room and having bathrooms and unfortunately, the company called palette doesn't sell it separately, but I would like us to put it on the agenda and assign a task force to follow that through we set aside some money, and we still need bathrooms that have sink showers and toilets, and we still need a community gathering room. So I'd like to, we put some money aside to do that. And I, anyway, I would like to put that back on the agenda at some point and really have a task force focus on it. But for this thing, I guess bring us back to what we're supposed to be talking about. I do wonder about, maybe it's my misunderstanding of a quorum. If Jennifer can't make the meetings and I would assume she's no longer on the committee so it has a vacancy. And then does the count not change. I think that's where you know we're looking to constitute the group and I think many of the members want to continue I think they were just hoping to, you know, perhaps if someone wishes to step down they could but also to see if there's new interest and as I said we've got a couple of real regular attendees who are very active participants who may well wish to be on the committee don't know if they do. And so I think just the question was do we, is there still an active council interest, and can we re advertise we have a full committee so we have at least a reliable quorum, you know, it is hit or miss as we're trying to get business done. We end up having usually a conversation anyway but it's you know it's not official so. Issue of quorum is my understanding was when you had vacancies, then the quorum changed. Okay, okay. So it's a nine person committee, it's still, it's kind of like if somebody's not here at a council meeting it still requires for votes. And you can't do any official business you can't vote on things. Let you don't have the quorum. And Peter. I, yeah, I would just like to add some things to what Jack suggested about about designated terms. You know, I've been a pretty close observer and a member of, I was a member of the housing task force went to a lot of their meetings after I was no longer a member. I've gone to a lot of the homelessness task force meetings, and I've seen the same for problems. I'm going to propose some solutions. Quorum work between meetings. These groups tend to be have institutional members people who do that work every day. It's too much to expect them to also do extra work between meetings. I've heard and related to that burnout. I've seen the chairs, these of these task forces, and others really burnout. And then forth, there's an occasional appearance of a conflict of interest, because these task forces tend to be mostly institutional members. So I'd like to suggest four things to add to Jack's term limits. Or setting a term. The first is to really make an effort to appoint a number of highly engaged, unaffiliated members who have the time and the emotional energy to put in work between meetings. It really is too much to expect somebody who works with homelessness every day, and it's a very hard job to also put in the additional time between meetings. Secondly, that all voting members and alternates and I really urge you to appoint alternates, because that can help with the the quorum issue, but that that all members and alternates be appointed based on the strength of their applications, may or may not include an affiliation, but don't make the appointment by affiliation. Don't say the police department or another way you'll get them, but number two, so number two is to appoint people based on their application. Third, I don't think there should be more than one voting member at a time from a single organization that however, if that organization has an alternate, and the police is a very good, good, good example. When one of the police people can't be there. Now, this isn't true right now. The other one can make it. So one could be the member. The other could be the alternate. You always have a person from that organization. Right now, you have two people from another way, you have two people from good Sam, you have two people from the police, you have to city council members. That's, that's not really a representative group. So I really suggest no more than one voting member from each institution. And secondly, I really would suggest that the city council members be liaisons, not voting members. First of all, it's redundant for them to be voting members and secondly, it adds to the quorum problem. Jennifer could have continued it, but she recognized that she couldn't make those meetings and so needed to resign because she was, you know, causing a quorum problem, but it would be great to have her back on the committee. And if she wasn't creating a quorum problem. So I really see, please ask you to consider those four elements that I just mentioned. If you don't remember what they are I can send an email. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, I missed. Okay, thank you. Any other thoughts from folks in person or with us virtually on on this. I'm going to go through the questions kind of specifically because there's there's some, some pretty specific questions I think we need to answer. So this is not a vote just a straw poll. How are you feeling about opening up the committee for some new appointments. And let me just check online. Okay, yep. Okay. And how do you feel about adding alternates. Okay, I'm sorry, let me just check online over time. Okay, great. Okay. How do you feel about. Well, this is a separate question. So Jennifer, I assume that you're, you're stepping down from the homelessness task force. Is that correct. My job with the CJC requires me to. Yeah, that's fine. And Connor, you're interested in staying on. Okay. And so is we don't necessarily need to people from the council. So I think what happened was prior to council member Morton's taking a new position she was interested in being on the group we had a shortage of members. And so we said why if we have to council members who can make it and are interested why not have them both because council member Casey's been on I think since almost since the beginning. I don't know if I need to vote on it. It's sometimes it feels like I'm writing a letter to myself since most of the motions are directed at the council so I don't know if that's a bad thing. No, that's fair. I mean, I don't think so I regularly go to the energy committee meetings and I'm not a voting member on that committee. You're not a voting member. You're not a voting member on the energy committee right now okay. So that's, that's fair. And where else are we what other. Oh so the membership. Oh terms. Let's do that one a second so with the membership before opening up re advertising did we want to designate. I assume that we don't want to designate any seats for any particular organizations, like it's just we're going to open it up like any other committee, and invite people to apply, and we'll see who we get. Right, is that I'm seeing a lot of nods there so that I think that answers that question term limits, or not limits terms sorry. I would suggest two years, because that's pretty common for some other committees. Lauren and Jennifer, how do you feel at two years. Okay, I would say if you're going to do that when when we appoint this committee, when we get the applications and you know point to half of them for one year and half of them for two years, so that we're alternating and for initially and then. And it also seems like we should probably check in with everybody to see if they're willing to step to stay on or if they prefer to step off or whatever. Okay, I think that is all of the questions that we needed answers to Lauren go ahead. I thought in the advertising. I know we haven't yet kind of put into practice the stipends this committee in particular just making sure that that is part of the advertisement as it goes out that that's available for people. It would be great. That's great call. Okay, I think that's it. Would it be useful to you to have a motion with all of those things. Okay. Is there a motion to how should we call that we're writing down all that stuff. I'm going to have a limit of two years the first year half are going to have one year terms half are going to have two year terms. And they're going to have alternates. Depending on the number of applications you can decide at the time whether to make a council rep, a voting rep or not. Yes, because you want to look at the diversity in the application so I think it's really just like coverage on. And I think in terms of the fairly legitimate question about multiple people from the same organization you might want to wait and see how many applicants you get because if you, you know, some of the people that are multiple members are also the most active and productive members so it might be. I think it's better not to set it in stone and you can act when you have an opportunity to be a point. Yeah. Okay. Was that a motion that was a motion. You've got it. There's a second. Jack. Okay, and further discussion. No further discussion. Okay, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. And opposed. Okay, so that motion passes unanimously so we don't need to do roll call. Thank you everybody for your thoughts and clarity around that. Yes Donna. I'm sorry to one we're talking about. Yes, yes. Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about conservation committee. The terms are all over the place and I'd like us to see, we were trying when we started appointments to put them back in order so that's like they're all due in one month and they have some sense to their flow when somebody's appointed midterm they only serve what's left and they don't start a new date. I'm sorry I missed it when we were talking about that. It's okay. You know, she have something. Not underneath that. Just had a suggestion. Okay, once we're done with this. So where we leave that I mean that so there were two seats on the conservation commission. One was a four year seat and one was a two year seat. And we didn't specify necessarily who was getting what seat there's also a couple alternate seats on the conservation commission. Do we want to revisit that. Your parliamentarian. We could move to reopen that. Just to clarify it. Yeah. So much time and this one's so much time. Yeah. Without reopening it. Whatever, make a motion to appoint Phyllis four years. Sure. Yeah, I've moved to pinpoint Phyllis Rubenstein for four years and CNN two and I for two or tiny whatever it is for two years. Okay. Okay. Great further discussion about that. Okay. All in favor please say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay, and opposed. All right so that passes unanimously. Thank you for that clarity. Yes, one person here for item 10. And I think it should be a pretty quick item. So you may want to. Sure. Yeah, okay. I also know we have someone here for item eight. Okay. Okay, that's probably fair I do anticipate that 10 will be fast. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. Let's let's let's do that. So let's take up item 10 hunting at 203 country club road. Do you want to talk about the staff recommendation or. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Gentlemen from the public raised the question of hunting at the former elks club. We took a long look at that with staff and realized, you know, There were a lot of issues and particularly in the future as things become more expanded, but at the time the use is still pretty limited. And our staff recommendation was to simply maintain the status quo for the status of use but at this point we didn't really see a conflict with what's happening there now is opposed you know in the same light of it's what had happened there in the past there have been trail use and skiing use and those kinds of recording in progress thoughts would you like to come comment on that yeah please do but thank you for that however I have spoken to the Washington County Fish and Game Warden and I'm kind of torn between this because I think it should be hunting with permission so that you know we know who's on the property but there's a difference between a hunter and a sportsman and a sportswoman first of all a hunter just goes on the property a sportsman a sportswoman asked permission first legal stands and they're identified with name address and telephone number by state law a sportsman a sportswoman picks up garbage and trash that they find in the woods a lot of hunters leave it and it's a beautiful piece of property and there's a lot of game there and I'd love to keep it open but at the same time you want to know who's on that property both for damage for trash illegal poaching etc. I know of three stands there that are illegal and I spoke to the warden about that and he's there well I'll make my appearance after season starts because that's when the penalty is really enforceable because they can leave a stand up for a year if you don't know it's there and when you've got a sports person or sportsman or sportswoman on the property they see these things and I just feel that even if you know posting it with with permission available art you know ask for permission first and I don't even put up the signs for us but it's just that you know hunters have got a terrible reputation sportsmen and sportswomen don't and that's what I've taught to my family and to people I hunt with and I really want us to make this this could be a really great teaching environment for the rec department for generations to come and it's just something I think that our property as a city should be used just as you know down at near the pool etc you know this is a teaching opportunity for everyone to really take care of the property the land appreciate it I mean I've seen coyote puppies wrestling you don't see that on TV I mean I've seen turkey chicks that were maybe two hours old that's what a sportsman or sportswoman does in the woods I've never had a bad day in the woods even falling down on my face tripping you just look up at the sky and laugh at yourself but we've got a great opportunity to use this property properly for future generations and that's what I want to say and thank you for allowing the hunting to continue we have again I hope you do but I'm just saying it's a great asset and to be able to offer that to somebody in 20 years because it's taken care of properly that's important to me as as an outdoors person and and it means a lot to me and I mean I've seen tree stands her to treat if they're not used properly I mean putting bolts into a tree to put a tree stand up is not respecting a living thing and I know I'm going over but I've seen some things in the woods that most people laugh at me I say you have no idea how much I can sit to laugh on the ground watching chipmunks run across my legs so thank you oh I guess there's a question doing that I just want to add that we spent a lot of time talking about those situations and and I think it's probably maybe worth some consideration one of the issues that we as staff had was what the criteria would be in issuing permission for publicly owned arsenal you know if I'm a private land owner I can say Maurice you can hunt and Tom you can hunt but you know Jack you can't because it's my land and I can just decide and as a public entity you know it's a little bit different we don't necessarily have the personnel to you know be up there monitoring and doing you know the kind of things and so we have a registration system and what's the criteria so we we basically realized we didn't have we either had to say no or see how it goes and reevaluate and then either come back with recommendations that we we do something differently or you know as the property builds out then maybe now it's not time for hunting there anymore so so so that's where we ended up where it was you don't so it couldn't do you think it would require much staff time if it was you know we're just gonna say yes to folks but you just got to tell us or like there's not so so I don't think that's too much time I think the time is then who's it going up there to make sure that the only people that are there are those that that are actually mission and who's enforcing and you know we talked about you know people we could monitor the cars in the parking lot but so or yeah there was a one point we talked about limiting the number of people that could be in at any one time and again it was sort of how do you do that and if certainly if the council would like us to look at those management strategies we'd be happy to take a look at it just know that at least for this year at this point in time we don't feel we have capacity to handle that so we looked at it as you know a little bit of an all or nothing and given where we're at and given how much the sports people do enjoy it there we felt it was worth at least one more year and seeing what we learned. Okay Donna and then I want to give you a chance Mr. Mardino if you want to respond to any of it but only because I am inviting you back up but Donna go ahead. First I wanted to apologize I got so involved in your talking I didn't time you right away so you've got like four minutes and then you got an abrupt stop sign so again no I didn't give you the warning orange I apologize but along those lines before you talked about wanting us just to stay where we were and it sounds like the game warden currently is doing some monitoring there but nobody was giving permission before were they were they the private owner who was giving permission before? Interested okay okay but the game warden still be private or public they still roam those areas and enforce the state laws thank you. Okay did you yeah go ahead yeah I you you brought up very interesting questions and hunting is not something or that I know a lot about or being a sports person is not something to know a lot about and it seems like the city staff has done a lot of consideration on this and has some questions that were not easily resolved and so I would be in favor of just keeping it open for now following the recommendation that has come from staff and then as part of the process that we're going through in the next couple of years of figuring out what we're doing with that property I think this needs to be in that discussion and and I think that we'll be able to give it the real the consideration and the time that it deserves and that we can come back and decide what to do. If you would like to come speak to this that that now would be great and then if if you have anything else further yeah go ahead. My name is Walt Goodwin I was born and brought up in Montpey but I live in Berlin now I'm hunted at the Elkscope property pretty much since I was a kid and you know I'm really glad you're saying to keep it open or you're thinking about keeping it open anyways. Oh I'm sorry yeah I'm a I'm a quiet talker but is that better yeah no it is better um so anyway so currently I have a tree stand up there and I left it up from last year and I've got in permission to hunt there before from Liberino Ribellini he was a pro shop guy in the in the golf course there and now that he's gone that's why I came down tonight just to make sure I could still go there is it still going to be okay this year if I have a tree stand there because you have to have permission to have a tree stand on on property it's a it's a shingain law. So much like councilmember Brown we are not experts at this although we did I will be clear that a couple of the people at staff that were involved in this are very avid sports people and do know like Arnie like Arnie yes that's right so we do have some expertise at the table and I think our goal um as best we can is to was to allow what has happened there in the past to continue to happen so if people had tree stands they could keep their tree stands and it need to not change anything to make sense that we can we're not a private land owner so we we do have some you know issues to consider that a private landowner doesn't you know have to but our goal was to try to make it as as comparable to what it was and if it turns out that it doesn't if it if you know and I I expect uh Mr. Martin knows very willing to share his feelings with our council on which we appreciate and if things are not working I I have no doubt that he'll tell us and I you know account on those of you that have been responsible users of that property if it gets too crowded or whatever that you will let us know and maybe give us some advice as to what could change because we we want it to be safe and we want it to be responsible and we want the land honored yeah I thought I was only hunter in there until I met Marisa last year we came across each other um I wanted to specify that my tree stands legal has my name on it which is what you have to have and it's a ladder stand so there's no nails or anything no ruining any trees at all so when I take it out of there there's no damage so okay so I can hunt there this year yes perfect thank you thank you um I'm gonna go to Peter and um and then if we'll come back to you yeah go ahead Peter uh not that I know a whole lot about hunting but seems like this would be a great opportunity for community engagement and um I mean as as other things develop up on the former elves club property to have a uh like a committee like the complete streets committee or like the trash tramps from uh but to get some citizens who are knowledgeable about hunting to help to uh sort of police this or at least maybe police isn't quite the right word but you get my meaning right yeah great thank you uh mr martin would you like to um just address anything further he and I we met in the woods so last year and he was even nice to say hey when I'm not using my stand you can too well that makes me feel weird but anyways no it's just the best thing about being in the woods is not seeing another hunter and when you've got too many people on a parcel of land you're destroying the whole thing of hunting of being there and intruding on animals normal day to day and night life and that's why you know I know where his stand is I'm going to stay away from it because I don't want to go over there and spook anything that might be coming his way and vice versa because I told him where I usually hunt and that's why I think going forward you're going to want to say okay we're only going to have eight at any time on this property you know at least speak to someone that knows a warden you know how many should you allow on a parcel of land this size because there's nothing worse than to have your stand or have your spot and somebody comes and sits 30 yards away from you I mean that's that's an unwritten no no and that's that's basically it and so that's why I stay away from his stand and he knows your eye hunt and that's why I just wanted to continue that's all thank you I also just want to encourage both of you to participate in the discussion about what will happen up there we hired a firm that's going to lead a public conversation input process for what should happen on that land and I don't recall anybody really advocating for hunting specifically or being a sports person on that space so I guess I would encourage you to advocate for that in that process so that yeah there's a voice for that use of the land thank you any other thoughts on this Connor go ahead I just pretty much agree carry here no desire to take away the status quo especially if it's an asset for people currently I think things could change in the future with the public plan but like the mayor said you know yeah better be at the table than on the menu there so yeah please show up and participate um but um no I think I'd be fine with keeping it as it is and I think state law does actually limit how much we can regulate hunting here with some of the preemption law so okay well is there a motion that folks would like to make yep go ahead I'll move to adopt option one is recommended by city staff how second okay great um so we have multiple seconds uh so just to be clear option one is no changes from current use uh and any further discussion okay uh all in favor please say aye aye aye aye and opposed okay so the motion carries it's unanimous we don't need to do roll call um so thank you uh for participating in that and all right so we are I think we're ready now to move on to the um the parklet ordinance so um this is gonna be the first reading for uh this ordinance change so I'm gonna officially open the public hearing um for that and uh so yeah um there are members of the public who would like to speak about this now would be a great uh opportunity thank you am I am I in this thing I can't yeah um awesome I I think the ordinance as it's written as I saw it is fantastic I know it oh I'm so sorry I'm Wes Hamilton um I am wearing my hat as the owner of three penny tap room um uh I I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into creating the ordinance as proposed I wanted to come and speak um I have pretty significant and deep felt concerns specifically about um the portion if I'm understanding correctly in which parklets would be required to be open and free use to the public when not being used by the business um I have way more than two minutes of talking as Ann could tell you from my email um about concerns with that um and I'm happy to like enumerate concerns but you know I kind of I I imagine you know to try to keep within two minutes I imagine the intentions and the thinking that put that in place is incredibly well-meaning um from my perspective you know our parklet which is a vital part of our business at this point cost us closer to thirty thousand dollars than twenty thousand dollars to create um so the idea of it being a free-for-all to anybody is obviously concerning um you know damage or graffiti and this and that um you know the thing that I think like more kind of uh philosophically to me um you know I'm free we're all free to park our cars in downtown um and after the meters are no longer running we can leave our cars there overnight um we are not required to make our cars available to the public to use because that doesn't make sense um so I don't really understand the difference between my car and the parklet in that parking space at 2 a.m. Thank you so also I just um I hope it's okay with you I just forwarded your email to the council so that they could have to have that I I should have yeah I should have forwarded it sooner but there we are um I so I'll just say I think it's a good point you know we don't help people to access our cars if they're there after hours um I'm I'll just say I like I think it's all right to um not require uh access to the public after hours for parklets I realize that would be a change from what we had as policy previously but that's that's where I'm at anywhere anyway um so any well so just to check any other comments in person or virtually on this I probably should have saved my a pining till after I asked um yes if I just may um from the staff perspective of from drafting this we don't have a strong feeling one way or the other about this we were trying to respect so the initial policy as the mayor said when this was done was that those would be open when we went to the temporary ordinance we did away with that for covid reasons and everything else so our our goal in um drafting the ordinance was to reflect the original um primary ordinance but I don't know that there's I mean that was that was it initiated by the then council said this is something we want so it's from from our perspective it's strictly a policy call that you make and um whichever you do that's fine with us other thoughts Donna go ahead public media public hearings so it's the yeah our term to talk yes I guess it's I'm kind of mixing it but um let me just check anyone else online wish to make a comment about this or in person you can use your raised hand icon under reactions you can turn your camera on and wave you can use you just turn your mic on I'm not seeing anyone so I'm going to close the public hearing then go ahead Donna well I really hear your point and wondered if we change the wording from required to encourage the availability for public seating there are some that don't have loose chairs that really work well but I would like to see maybe that change in the language so speaking of language the part that I am tuned into on that is section 20-7 part c which says all parklets shall include signage which indicates the hours of private operation and states that the parklet is open to the public at other times I mean I would suggest just removing C but I guess I still would like some language encouraging possible public use if the if facility allows me where that might fit yes go ahead yeah I think in that same section B also says that oh oh yes parklets are only restricted to patrons during business hours and other than that they're open to the general public and I you know I would love to live in a world where they were all open to the public when the business was closed and and the business didn't have to worry about their property being damaged or destroyed so sadly I don't think we live in that world so I would be in favor of changing that and I like the idea of encouraging including language that encourages because some business owners may feel like they want to do that or give it a try I feel like we could probably just so in the spirit of that um nope nevermind I'm wrong so we should maybe strike B as well though I we could replace it potentially with something like we encourage parklet operators to make them available to the public after hours of operation it also means that in D it says at all times that the parklet is an operation smoking is prohibited but I unless we want to prohibit smoking there all the time I maybe that's too complicated um jack I think that what we're seeing here is kind of a change in the vision of what a parklet was going to be from from thinking the parklet's going to be a flat platform with maybe some benches to something that's a lot more than that now and I I totally agree that businesses who have have their fixtures and tables and chairs and all that stuff out there have a valid reason a valid interest in in protecting those and so for that reason I would make a motion with regard to delete to strike a subsection C there and in sub is in section 20-7 subsection B delete the phrase delete the words and otherwise must be open to the general public for their enjoyment and can you say that can you say that again sure actually in subsection B delete the word only in the let me think about this for a minute only in the first line and so parklets may be restricted to use by patrons of a particular establishment or group cooperating businesses during their operating hours and then delete the rest of that sentence so put a period after hours parklets may restrict parklets may be restricted to use by patrons of a particular establishment and so forth yep during their operating hours period sure yeah yeah donna go ahead because right after you drop the operating hours so they can but they're encouraged to make available when possible or feasible maybe that's feasible I mean we could interesting I feel like we're on the same track here this is also just the first reading so we could we could just you know ask the city manager to capture this and rewrite it in a way that doesn't restrict it though I realize I'm interrupting your motion okay does that talk about there's so much about this is that reading even though it says first right in front of me you don't need a motion necessarily from us on how because you you're hearing the direction our conversations going so the manager to amend the ordinance as part of the discussion and bring it back for second reading is that a motion that someone would like to make yeah I'll do it you can have I'll make the motion okay what bill said and jack are you seconding um also oh Connor also just wanted to check in I want to make sure Lauren and Jennifer I don't know if you have anything else that you want that you want to say I just wanted to make sure like just check in are you good I'm good I'm just having connection issues I apologize you're you're good it's all it's all good Connor go ahead just a bit I know we've been conflicted on this one you know like we have a conversation about Gerriton Park we don't like the bad behavior going on in Gerriton Park so we stick in the garage you know it seems similar that you know if we don't like the behavior going on in Parklitz we take a I get it but the existing policy is people could use it right we're taking that away with this so I think you know and Wes had a pretty good analogy tonight I think that did stick with me with the cars and everything I I think I probably will vote for this but I think we do need a bigger conversation and it came up with the homelessness task force today uh like what are we doing with Gerriton Park you know is there is there an alternative you know and there's going to be a proposal brought to us pretty soon so I hope we consider that seriously and make sure people do have a place to go if it's not a parklet and it's not Gerriton Park I think it just needs to be at the forefront of our minds on this stuff oh Jack I have a question and at Wes you may have the answer but you may not the current language is it creating any problems now are you Jack I may have the answer okay well currently under so the we had an existing sort of the base ordinance and then it restricted the number of parking spaces and all those other things we superseded that with a temporary ordinance which we've used for the three last three summers including this one the temporary ordinance doesn't require the public use so Wes and others have not had to provide that so we are the goal is to take the best parts of the temporary the best parts of the original to allow for more expensive use of parklets but also make sure that all the safety features and things were included and the issue of use after hours is a policy question that is that you're debating that's one of the people are using it now for the most part okay I think that's truth okay thanks that's all I wanted to honor it said we were taking it away and it hasn't been there for the last three years so but I do think it comes back to that point that we do need to look at community space and outside and inside for a variety of people I think it's a good point um and I it makes me think about you know like so if we're gonna have space available to anybody to use in after hours times and rather have it be our property rather than private property um you know the benches downtown are available 24 hours yeah okay great thank you um we have a motion and a second yes we have not voted any further discussion any further discussion just checking online here okay all right all in favor please say I hi hi and opposed okay so that passes so we'll have a second reading at our next meeting with the changes that we talked about thank you yep great all right so on to the year and financial report okay yeah welcome ellie it's safe here try that all right well that looks promising yeah that's perfect thank you everyone for your patience Kelly Murphy finance director um so i'm going to go ahead and get started maybe okay i i think we're good okay um so i'm going to run through uh where we uh look to be finishing fy 22 um and provide you with a bit of good news um we are looking in most cases to be positive in all funds with the exception of two which is really great uh the other thing that i do want to know is the auditors have been on site and we are tracking the schedule so i'm hopeful that we'll have audited financials to you in conjunction with the budget process um and so you'll have those for deliberations and then i think really the thing to highlight with the auditors at this point is that no news is good news um and so we're just gonna go with that for right now um so just a few slides i'll be brief um so starting off like let's try to see there we go all right perfect can everybody still see this i think so hopefully um great i've got some nods awesome so what i want to do is just kind of provide a high level overview keep it really simple um i'll get into the general fund in a minute and then provide an overview of the utilities and then the areas where funds are not performing as though we would have anticipated um and so what you can see here we'll get into the general fund next but with water and sewer they're both positive and for similar reasons we are seeing revenue downgrade still in these funds but um the balance of those downgrades is being made up with you know unexpensed lines and capital projects um so there are projects to do um so there's still a bit of pressure there but the good news is that we're ending the year um in a positive position and do have options in those funds um next just considering sticking with the utility theme here um parking as positive which is really good news um that was looking really scary for a bit there so we're about 283 to the good at this point things could change a little bit but i don't see any big changes coming down the line at this point um and then the other thing i want to highlight on the slide are the senior center and district heat funds those are negative um the senior center unfortunately the reason why that is negative in large part is because of their um investment's not coming in as they normally do um then market has taken a dip to about the tune of 120 thousand dollars um that's not great however they do have the fund balance to cover it um and so the their fund balance will go from 611 down to 448 thousand dollars with the total sum of the downs in that fund the other thing that um is not particularly positive but i do think will rebound with some of the programming that's been coming in is their program fees so their programs did not come in as budgeted and that's about 73 75 thousand dollars or so down um from what we had budgeted so we're keeping a close eye on that fund but i i do think we will see some positive movement this one's just slow to return um and we'll keep working on that uh district heat is the same story that it has been this is really representative of depreciation in the fund and that being booked accordingly um so this is a little bit further down than it was in prior years um last year i think we were about 146 thousand or so to the bad so this is up a little bit but down if you know what i mean um so it's not great but it's not unexpected either so i think that you know on all things are looking pretty good um so then this next slide just really gets into a summary of uh the general fund um and where we're at what we're looking at in terms of just key highlights within um you know both revenues and expenditures um we uh when we put together the deficit mitigation plan in 2021 we were seeing revenues really tank and so as you can see here they have come back and come back really positive so property tax all things within that category are up by about 30 thousand dollars the pilot state and local up by 453 thousand and then there are some other categories that are up that are interesting um the intergovernmental and miscellaneous categories um and those have things like the COPS grant or um the challenger monument movement those kinds of items that you know we are seeing in those categories so they're not huge items but they are um really helping us on the bottom line and then there are areas that i did want to point out that are not doing particularly well and within this group it's really the permits and licensing um and i'll get into that in the next slide um because i really um wanted to highlight the revenue side of the equation since in the general fund in particular and parking that's where we were really taking the hits we weren't necessarily having a problem with spending per se um and then moving on into the expenditures here um you know we have been able to weather the storm we did see that revenues were coming in and so you know we did end up spending over what we had budgeted to the tune of about 380 thousand but net enhanced revenues we still ended up on the positive side of things and things that i do want to highlight we've been doing um some pretty good work in IT and in finance but it's expensive and you can see ups associated in those areas at counterbalance whether offsets in other areas within the general fund and then there are other pressures within the police department in dvw um but you know those are things that are to be expected um we did have some increases and delayed maintenance within public works that you know we didn't purchase equipment on schedule and so we had some maintenance costs or within the police department there were um some significant overtime costs in that department and so that's been tracking with what we thought it would be um so moving on to this next slide i just put together a five-year trend for you to kind of pull out some of the areas that we thought were going to do poorly which have actually done quite well um so estate pilot uh you can see how that's continued to trend up local options tax is back um which is really great um so people are shopping here in the city um building permits i want to highlight because this is down um so of all the things this is the area where we really um might want to look at that because you know if you look at 20 we were at 103 thousand dollars and then 21 was 54 and then 22 was 51 and some change and so not great but hopefully development will start to start to return the other thing i want to highlight is the COPS grant you can see that um it's a federal grant that we get and um it's we've we've got a lot in 22 compared to other years and so that's really helped the police department in netting and some of their expenditures and then parking although not general funds um the plus you the general fund did end up supporting the parking fund because a lot of that was related to operational costs and so you can see the meter revenues returning and the ticket revenues returning um and then just in the notes section here i just wanted to highlight um what we were facing in 21 as a downgrade that didn't come to pass thankfully um but you know with all this good news you know there's also get into a slide um further down in the deck here where we're in good shape but there are lots of pressures on the budget right now and so um we are positioned well to deal with 24's budget build however there will be things that we're going to have to really consider um as we move forward um so this next slide is just something i wanted to put together for you because this is another um area that it's a little small so i apologize for that um sorry so um without the arbor funding that we received we probably uh would not be able to stand up in a way um that we are able to so um on April 30th just recently we elected to do the standard allowance which means that the 2.2 million dollars that we're receiving in arbor funding can be used in the most general uh categorical sense and so that's really positive it tracks with what we have planned for phases one and two one and two phases are related to the timing of the money and so you can kind of see the plan maybe worked out there because it's kind of small and i can get um more detail for folks if they need it if they can't see it um but then i want to jump down to just the the the bullet for last well next up from the bottom um just in terms of what we've received to date and what we've spent to date and so um we have received about almost 1.5 million we're waiting on the second installment of the county funding and that's 715,000 we haven't received that yet i do anticipate that we'll see receive that very soon um from the state treasury um and so we're we're kind of bird arguing that a bit of money but um we've spent 278,000 or so so far uh as part of phase one for equipment purchases there are a lot of project costs that will start hitting um this funding coming online um and then i just want to note that we have plenty of time with this funding um we have until December 31st 2024 to obligate and it has to be expended by December 31st 2026 i do not think we'll have any problems spending this money um but and we have to give it back if we don't so i just want to highlight that but we have plans for it so um we're we're working on it um and so i just wanted to give everybody a briefing on where we're at with our ARPA funding um and so this last slide is just key takeaways um the general fund is the good 339,000 or about 2% if you're looking at it from a revenue and expenditure perspective and so that's positive and seems like a lot but it's not when you consider all the pressures that i've had listed here in this last bullet um you know we have a lot of pent up demand and pressure on our funds for um a bunch of different things projects positions equipment um health insurance is likely going to go up it's on a calendar year basis um we are looking at a potential double digit increase um and so i'll brief you more on that once we know for sure um and then we have some other operational expenses that we do see coming in higher than what we had budgeted such as fuel electric sand salt so um 23 coming out of 22 we've got some wind at our backs 23 is going to be a year to watch for sure and then 24 development is going to be interesting um so that's um kind of everything that i have um to go over with you positive news um but we do have our work cut out for us as we get on here so thank you we get these slides because that one in particular i want to blow up and be able to see the numbers thank you sure i didn't okay that's that's on me i was late to the game getting the slides out down any questions i just think it's very interesting that the word when you used interesting i thought of the asian when the asian tells you they wish you to have an interesting life it's a curse oh so when you said 2024 is going to be interesting i went oh well is that what you meant um i i hope not thank you that was very clear and it's good to know where we're at it's encouraging to see that things are starting to bounce back in a way that we were hoping they would um thank you for this update this was this was very helpful and very clear um so i really appreciate that and um yeah look forward to talking more about fy24 yes yeah yes jack i just had one question there's such a huge drop in the uh in the building permit line uh do you have a theory for what that is because my recollection is that we had a couple of years where we had big uh receipts in building permits that were mostly us paying ourselves like us like the city this the city paying public work paying for for building permits for the sewer plan at least for two years we had the couple hundred thousand dollars those were largely city projects and i think if you look at the big drop it was during covid you know people just weren't building as much or investing uh and now it's starting inch back a little bit as people are are doing these things but yes we did you know we didn't hit actually you know over a stretch of time and i couldn't remember the exact years but we we had the transit center we had um the the wastewater plant there was you know the um um a caledonia spirits building there was the the building pat melone's building out near the roundabout you know there were some fairly substantial buildings that come with huge plans reading uh and building permit fees and um you know that that just kind of stopped during covid so hope you know as we hope to see a rebound in inactivity thanks you're welcome uh peter kelman go ahead um i i would just like to observe that if we want building permit uh revenues to increase one possibility is to do a little more enforcement uh i'm sure we have all driven around town and seen a lot of home construction going on and no permit signs i'm not saying we should but i'm not saying we should do that but that's that's um leaving money on the table i'd say thank you thank you yeah thank you um okay all right thank you very much thank you yeah okay so i think we are up to a discussion around the process for uh 203 country club road um am i turning that over to you okay i think we provide you a memo i don't really have much to add to that i know people there had been some interest in how we were going to do this and after we approved the the project manager at the last meeting we convened a session with our own communications person and our project leader team josh jerome and and stephanie hailey clark from white and bark and their team uh to try to lay out a plan for how to have regular conversations and also have data and keep things moving and um you can see what they've proposed so this was really just to see what they have give any feedback suggestions comments uh yes carry good yeah um i am looking at the public engagement process and that there are three public meetings planned and then smaller stakeholder conversations and that's great i'm glad there's a variety of ways to get some input um i i just want to reiterate in encouragement to this group that they think about really different ways of getting feedback from people other than you can write a letter or you can come to a zoom meeting or you can come to a public meeting um there are still just whole great swaths of people living in Montpelier who will never show up for something like that who will never even hear about it um but something like maybe i i don't know what it is something much more creative um going to places where you you don't necessarily expect um to be going to look for a public response but you know really trying to think outside the box and and then my second one is that it looks like all this public engagement part is really front-ended and i'm wondering if that's still the plan that they're really going to kind of try to get all that public input first and then do all the rest of the planning because my hope is that it would be much more integrated throughout the entire process so as things were being suggested and changed as they were learning different things then it would be let's go back and see what the public thinks about this and as new things come up yeah can respond to that a little bit i have i have enough knowledge to be dangerous and we certainly can and have the folks come back in at another meeting to update that typically the idea is that the the heavy public engagement now will really define the uses and locations and those kinds of things so the master plan will be developed and then come back and get feedback after that you're starting getting into you know engineering design and those things so there might be changes but i i i think and mike miller would tell you this that you know at some point you have to say this is what we're we're doing and now we're we're keeping people informed as to what may need to change or whatever but we can't suddenly run into a year and half of design and spending all that money and say you know what we're now going to just move that whole building or something so i think you know and i'm probably overstating what you're kind of getting ready is to really get the the plan laid out the drawing the the concept and and run that through the public as much as you can and but then once you get there then you got to say this is what we're doing if i am making myself clear is that oh i is that what you were trying to get at maybe i'm misinterpreting what you're saying i want to make sure i'm getting it right um yeah i mean i wouldn't be advocating for you know a complete change of plan a year and a half from now but um but i think that there are an example i came up tonight was the question about hunting you know i don't think that was on on the radar and what else like that might come up and then what about a year from now as we've as hunting has been happening we may have very different feelings about right about that in a year and that and people in the public may have a very different opinion about that after we've experienced it for a little while this the same with if we end up going through with this lease to the hub people could have very different ideas about what should happen with that space after that's up and running for a year so i that that's actually really helpful yeah okay i think it's a good plan um one thing i'd add is just maybe engaging the and network to the extent possible we've invested in it i've been knocking a lot of doors lately you're gonna find people who don't access this information through the normal channels there so i know some neighborhoods are a little more effective than others there but uh good good opportunity to see what they can do and do some flyering for that i think i'm gonna go to lauren and then donna yeah thanks yeah um i had brought it up last meeting as well but we had a meeting i believe after the last council meeting with the social and economic justice advisory committee who is very interested so there is some work happening looking at the outreach that was done through creative discourse for developing our equity plan and lessons learned and how can we ideally connect with the consultant and provide some input on what i mean i think a lot of it's captured here i think the plan is good but it's like what does the small stakeholder you know are there affinity groups and other things some best practices that we can try to bring to what that looks like um and and ideally be capturing kind of what we're doing lessons learned from this process so as we keep having public processes we're continuing to improve and not trying to reinvent the wheel every time we're doing one like how do we how do we do a really good public process how do we you know what works and what doesn't in this one to engage populations that have often not been part of the process as other folks have just been talking about so just would encourage that we have some venue for providing that feedback to inform this and totally agree the kind of ongoing even if it's just informing people of you know what input was incorporated what wasn't and why from the public i think is just good public process for the kind of ongoing outreach and engagement of folks thanks yeah thank you i um just want to echo some of that that i like the idea of intentionally particularly with the small stakeholder small stakeholder groups um intentionally seeking out uh groups um you know bIPOC affinity groups uh to to get input i think would be really um great you know lgbt q groups etc that just underrepresented um affinity groups i think would be um wonderful to intentionally uh get input from donna go ahead one of the ways we got really incredible good input with the main and barry street study is we put a display in the hallway on election day and we got multi ages we got kids and we were encouraging kids and we had a map and we had post-em notes and they could see the map of the property and they were they were posting a lot of intersections sidewalk problems places they love to walk places they don't want to it was very informative and i i think both for the november election and town meeting day you can bring in and you could advertise it so people could look for it and a lot of kids come i think more will even come if they know their opinion matters trying to get oh yes go ahead i think all the suggestions i've heard have been really good i'd like to see uh see our contractors set up a a tent at the farmers market uh on saturdays as people come and if they have a tent and a table and get to talk to people that would be really good uh the other thing i'm glad donna brought up the downtown master plan idea because uh one and our experience in that is that the i i fully grasp the idea of wanting to get a lot of public input as early in the process is possible so we know what direction we're going in but it would be good to keep that in people's minds in some way because when we're doing the downtown master plan we had some public meetings and there were a lot of people who were out of those meetings and there were a lot a lot of good ideas shared and then by the time we uh we get two or three or four years down the road where we're finally in a position to do some implement some of things that we talked about we've had people coming to the meetings saying well what are you talking about with this barry street bike path i never heard anything about this why don't we why aren't we doing anything about addressing the barry street the main street intersection we we did all this planning based on public input and so so if we could get away to have people more more aware of what's going on as we progress as we proceed i think it would be a good thing i might also suggest just for density's sake potentially uh having something set up on like a hot day at the pool that'd be a different kind of population you're gonna go to where the people are right so um uh peter kellen go ahead yeah i i'm really glad to hear all these creative ideas i would have liked to have seen them come from the the consultant and i really think that this needs to be sent back to them for some much more creative thinking and they should talk to lauren and see jack and they should talk to dana uh and jack about past experiences um i i actually was quite disappointed to read this um and i actually don't even understand it sounds like three meetings all of which will do the same thing but just in different places if that's what it is that's that's inadequate um i really think uh and connor said to use can i think that's very important can does have reach into uh sub neighborhoods but i also would like to suggest something uh especially since uh both um jennifer and and uh carrie who are my reps um had brought this up last week i think each district should have a town meeting where where you bring in the consultants for these meetings that they talked about with the representatives from the district and really get some you know the kind of district feedback that um it's that's a different way to slice the pie and it would also bring it bring the city counselors closer to their constituents around this major project um because can which is important is a good way to get information out it's not a great information to get bring information back but i think a town meeting is a great opportunity um and i will say that again i'm surprised this wasn't in it i mean um the habitat for humanity did these great charrettes which brought people in with and we were looking at plans we were commenting on them we there was a great interaction and um also by the way uh bill both Habitat for Humanity and the isabel circle project have made major changes i mean major changes in what they thought they were going to go with originally partially from uh community feedback so i'd be a little careful i i think um uh carrie's point was a good one it seems awfully front loaded like oh yeah we're going to wrap this up by december and then we're going to go off and get our architects i don't think that's going to work it's really and i think that that a number of people said look right the the if you do the contract with um uh the hub we're going to learn stuff i'll be done in a minute donna if we yet in exactly a minute if we're going to learn stuff over this next year i think this has to be much more flexible than your usual uh architectural process thank you thank you and we will be providing all of this feedback to to them so okay watch the recording of this discussion yeah fair enough uh all right amazadas go ahead hi thank you yes um amazadas they live at three derby drive um so i just want to sort of echo what has been said a little bit about the proposal which was that i found very lackluster and boilerplate and sort of disappointing um not sure how much we paid for it but um you know good public participation is is really going into the community so um setting up at the farmers market yeah but also standing in the parking lot of shaws going to the town pool going to the soccer games uh standing out the corner at the intersection downtown on a busy saturday uh figuring out you know what populations what groups um you know you want to hear from you want to hear from fronters you want to hear from homeowners you want to hear from kids you want to hear from hunters you i mean really digging into who lives in this community where do they go um what are their interests and how do you reach them um so i hope that some of that feedback will reach the consultant um and i also you know they reference sort of all the public comments that have been collected so far um i would love to maybe that information is already online somewhere but i would love to see a website whether it's on the city's website or elsewhere um that talks about the property that tells people sort of okay the purchase has been made here's a map you know here's what we're doing here's all the comments you can read them here's how to submit more comments um you know a way for folks to get engaged um and then i think they mentioned the bridge but obviously lots of folks are on front porch forum um the can groups as well so i think there's a lot of opportunity for for input um and i personally would love to read the comments um i missed those meetings um and i'm super interested in the project um so i would love to get more involved thank you okay um i just want to appreciate uh that comment and thinking particularly about the website um it's just reminding me of the zula website that j pointed us to and uh just having a like a project portion of the website do you want to comment about that we do have a we do a link on our website dedicated to this project i'd have to go look and see exactly what's on it but i think there i think the maps on there i think the comments may be on there it's on the city's website so we can but we can make sure to make that more well known great uh jennifer go ahead yeah i just wanted to um say thank you emma for your um comments and uh she mentioned front porch forum and you know we get a lot of our information from front porch forum which is often people's opinions and sometimes not always facts but i i'm glad to know that those conversations or the public input is on a website somewhere and so thank you emma for bringing that because i was not aware that that um the conversations were public um already but i think having it in a place that is not front porch forum would probably be really helpful um moving forward if it's not already taken care of but it sounds like it already is so never mind i'm just appreciating the comment great other comments from folks either in person or remote um or council this is great thank you all this is exactly what we're hoping here and we will summarize this and i let me um and i think probably the easiest thing will be to send this um section of this uh discussion to our team and their team so that people can hear it firsthand um and make adjustments because none of it is outside of the scope of things that we had thought about but it's good to get some specific suggestions and keep them coming if people think of things do you think that we will get a revised version yeah i think that would be helpful especially you know to help encourage the participation just knowing where uh or how they intend to to be out there and you know the process along the way etc i think would be good and i i do want to um just go back to peter's comment i uh in terms of the design charrette i sort of uh i guess it's not necessarily called out here but i do sort of expect that that will be a part of the process right like that there will be maybe the architects aren't getting into the site to yeah for people to sort of walk around and talk about right so yeah i i yeah i well yeah i do want to be clear i mean i think we expect there'll be sort of changes in the concept as it rolls along i think once at some point the city council and the public need to say this is the plan we're approving and i think that's that's maybe where i think i just misunderstood what you were asking is that you know and once when you say frontload whether it's nine months or a year a year and half at some point we say okay you know we've we've tweaked it enough now this is what we're doing and at that point you know then you start spending different kind of money and moving it along and so we can't really because sometimes you know in lots of communities including ours people still want to keep revisiting as jack mentioned and sometimes there is a lag between what's decided and the one get what's ultimately gets ruled out and so i did appreciate the comment about sort of keep it in the public eye in the meantime after we sort of make a plan you know posted up all over the place and this is what's coming you know so okay uh don i think our expectations are very high and perhaps we may need a group of volunteers who can add extra time to be out there and not to survey but we could do interviews so that maybe the person doesn't feel comfortable during the survey but we could have volunteers a team going out and filling out the same form for information just that then we have more people in more directions stirring up thoughts that we might want to think about that well i guess yeah i think all that's fair i do think um maybe and i think we've already said this and i'm just going to repeat it to say it out loud for reality check here but we are we i believe we've said that this project and we put it to the voters this way that key elements of this project are sort of public recreation facilities and housing and open space um and you know it was purchased with two million dollars from the general fund a million dollars from the rec fund and so i do i think we do those are certain sort of barriers we got to put around this that it's not necessarily and in correct me if i'm wrong here that it's a blank slate it's how do we fit these kinds of things on what do they look like and what maybe do we do with the remaining space so i think that may have been where these folks were like how do we get to the i call them pods they're not really pods but the different pods on the project that um that reflect that are wants so because because i do i do get concerned we could chase down any number of things that send us way off on onto areas that don't include those two at least major initiatives recreation and housing uh donna go ahead i think that's an excellent point and that would be the thread like to have that statement at whatever you do whether it's a meeting or survey is that we're educating ourselves again and again these are our limitations and around this this is what we want to achieve okay you don't need any motion from us right um so um normally we don't let people go twice but there's not a lot of folks here so Emma go ahead okay um so my second time uh i am a member of the housing committee first time was speaking more as a resident um so uh as a member of the housing committee we're just getting going we've had a couple meetings so we're the gears are starting to you know to roll um but if there are ways that we can um you know support this process in terms of volunteering in terms of collecting feedback on housing issues um let us know what you think what you need um again we're just getting going and feeling out uh you know capacity and priorities and all of those issues but i know that folks are interested and excited about um this project you know in the coming years and want to be involved um so please consider us as a resource for sort of um as you said one of those areas sort of framing discussion is housing and so yeah please do reach out to us thank you thank you Emma and i can tell you that you were your group is is high on our list of people to be involved great certainly we would want to have anything dealing with housing um had you know your comments and thoughts and input on and direction on so okay thank you and we don't need a motion on that so we're gonna carry on then so the next three items are potentially items that we could go with for executive session so we could do this a couple of ways um one is if if really we could have any comments that are public about all three items sort of together and then go into executive session to talk about these three items or we could do them sort of one at a time and come out every time um my jack do you have any thoughts on that my thought is that uh any one of these could take up a bunch of time so this might might be good time to take our break before we plunge into those okay thank you that is a good call um I had a suggestion about this um again just a suggestion my suggestion be we do the the public arts commission once we have a gentleman here who'd like to hear the outcome of that and then maybe do all of our council reports and because we don't need voting action on the others and then go in and do the others okay so that sounds okay to me and does that sound all right to you well yeah we'll take a break and then we'll we'll come back and if there is if if there are any um public um comments about uh about the public art commission we'll we'll do that and then we'll go into executive session come out um after just that item and then go back in to discuss the other two oh yes council repose yes yes thank you that's that's right um just checking but that's true we still have the cameras on because I don't think I don't think we're going to need voting action the other two so there would be no necessarily reason to keep folks here Lauren and Jennifer how do you feel about that plan I'm fine with it okay uh Donna well just one thing before we break I think that plan is great but you know today is your birthday and we cannot get past before everybody goes to sleep I want to make sure everybody knows and wants and has a birthday well thank you yeah thanks yay thanks um right so um yes if you wouldn't mind coming up to use this microphone um yes I may uh the reason why I stayed uh you know through everything is and not because I was waiting you know some kind of official statement or something because actually I was enjoying auditing this class for a local government in action and I don't know if I'd be able to get any college credit for but nonetheless I found it very very interesting um so I can depart um that way there's no like well he's waiting or uh but what I would like to do is I would like to leave you not only the printed copy of what I said uh earlier but I'd also like to leave with you these are the comments in the same way in which I came here tonight and I wrote down what I wanted to say because you know people who are not used to speaking in public they go um now let's see and then or and it gets kind of fuzzy particularly for people who have to listen so I wrote down um I introduced myself and wrote down my comments to the Montpelio Public Art Commission as the um um when I said okay the agenda comments from the public so I said okay I'm gonna read what my comments are and from this you can determine what exactly was my tone and where I was coming from this isn't everything because then there were some um subsequent topics that were generated by virtue of what I said so but nonetheless I will leave uh these with you okay if you can either incorporate or not thank you your deliberation and uh I thank you uh you administer a pop quiz on your local government in action I think I will lace it without it listening very gentle good thank you wall yes good night thank you okay um jack the only questions are we making kelly stay because of one of the other items it's um I don't think okay because if we were I'd want to do that earlier too I've got my instructions from kelly okay okay great so here's what I would propose that we do is that we take a break come back and do council reports and then we'll go into executive session on all three of these things and then right and we don't maybe if we do we can we can take it for a minute still we can well yeah okay go ahead if we discuss the art commission issue and the first of our executive session we can decide then to come back if we've made a decision we have to present could we not and then we could go back in executive session but otherwise right then we're asking everyone to stick around to wait to see to see if well I mean you can so we can come out and offer transparency and you can still have an open public meeting even if the camera's not on right it's although I suppose if there's a zoom meeting we I don't know how that all works this is a new frontier I'm maybe it's okay if if that is okay with you I think it's probably just cleaner if we take that up first as you're suggesting just you're suggesting and then we'll see if we do have an action we'll come back I'm sorry to make you stay to say we'll come back either way to be like yes or no we have just you know something to say or we don't and then we'll go back to discuss the other two there you go everybody wins okay okay it is now 822 we're gonna take a break till 832 and we'll do council reports then right thank you cool okay it is 832 so we are gonna get started again here what's that oh okay oh and Lauren's back that's great okay so we are gonna jump in with council reports and for this I'm gonna start over with Donna well I think let's let's do council reports and then if there are comments to be made in public we can do that after yeah yep sorry about that okay I just want to remind I want people to put it on their calendars that Vermont State Housing Conference will happen November 16th and it's at the Hilton in Burlington and hopefully it'll be a really significant gathering and some action groups will come out of it cool Carrie Connor just reiterate thank you I sent over email I was driving down Main Street the other day and I didn't have a coffee lid and I didn't spill one drop of coffee on myself the road was so smooth so thanks to DPW city manager staff everybody who worked on the road so again getting some good feedback on that also I might have an issue coming to council from my day job but I'll be recusing myself from it and my intern at Merrick Moden will be maybe presenting this so keeping I am from Merrick there okay great all right I'm going to jump to Jennifer but this virtually go ahead I have nothing thank you it's okay all right thank you Jack I went up to Vermont the health department clinic today to get my bivalent COVID booster and vaccine and I just want to encourage everyone we the Amacron booster is now out and it's available free up at at the UVM ophthalmology office across from the airport there are signs and I just encourage everyone to get it so that you're not the one get sick or infect someone else great thank you uh Lauren go ahead I'm gonna pass tonight thanks okay I just have a few uh events I want to make folks aware of this weekend uh is a celebration of v perks 50th anniversary uh so that's at uh 5 p.m uh up in Burlington there's also a um a celebration of women in uh in politics with the merge also this weekend um Saturday and then next Wednesday there is uh an opportunity to testify on uh the clean cars and clean trucks rules that the state is considering um that's at the um public library in berry so just some things coming up soon um and that is it for me uh john oh well since you brought it up I'll mention that we did have a a a citizen requested recount of the 2020 uh presidential ballots um from to concerned citizens about the results of the 2020 election everything went fine it was all very pleasant the numbers came out consistent with the numbers then there you go great that's good Bill um I actually have a few things uh let's see where to start so Connor mentioned a few of them we had a homelessness task force meeting today and we've already addressed the the committee um so just a few more updates I think are probably important one is we are moving forward uh on a shelter uh looks like there's a provider looks like there's a location and um trying to get funding from the state um it's possible that there might be a match fund and they may be seeking for the city to contribute some of that match but the I it's my opinion that the total that they're talking about any match would be within something we could do and certainly very important to provide an overflow shelter but that that would come back to you um I was going to mention this anyway Don had kind of brought that up about dealing with pallets and those kind of things we actually so Connor mentioned the RFP uh contract what you approved has been issued to a group to look at those kinds of strategies and come back with specific recommendations for what you know do should we have pallets should we have a facility so that work is actually being done and we will be getting recommendations for the type of programs and facilities and as you recall we have 425,000 in ARPA funds set aside sort of for that kind of work we didn't identify specifically so we will see what comes from that um so that some of that is being studied uh as Connor mentioned there is a group that is going to propose uh some sort of our reintroduction of the garden park structure for the winter time feeling it provides a safe shelter for some people um so we can expect to hear that um I think most importantly and I just want to mention this is that the state has issued an announcement and I meant to bring their formal announcement but they're running out of money uh federal money for their programs and uh they are going to be uh there will be drastic impacts to that by March they're going to they expect to be uh primarily ending the hotel motel programs which means in uh washington county alone's about 300 people that are housed so those uh some of them will still be eligible for hotels under certain circumstances if they have little kids if they're over you know so but a very large portion of those people will then be out um at the end of March with unless unless other funding is provided or other options are provided uh with no place to go so our communities in central Vermont could see um a very drastic visible um change in in the effects of homelessness on us so today's meeting we had folks from berry on and they're trying to talk about how to work with the ombud certainly I just I'm flagging this for the council in the community that this is an issue that is not getting better it's getting worse and it's going to become uh you know really moving into crisis mode possibly by spring late spring so I don't think I missed anything else from today um but I thought it was important um in a you know a small little self-promotion I'm actually be heading off to the icma conference to be beginning my third year as icma vice president it's hard to believe it's already there um but more importantly I'm going to be the chair of the committee on professional conduct so that means all ethical cases having to do with ethics and the city government will be under my watch so I don't think that was so there we go um yeah so when you hear about how unethical I am you'll know um let's see there was that uh personnel matters we hope to have an announcement expect to have an announcement on the building inspector this week we we believe we have a candidate who's accepted the position we just want to cross tease dot the eyes before we make an announcement but we think we have a very qualified candidate um I would like to publicly say thank you to Donna Barlow Casey for all she contributed to our public works department and her creativity or innovation her just general good person spiritedness and she's going off to retire and Kurt so as of today I named Kurt as the acting director uh as and we will begin a process to look for that uh speaking of processes the deadline for assistant city manager was today and we had 17 applicants so we'll be uh moving that forward which brings me to the as we're talking about assistant city manager brings me to my last item which is that this is Cameron's last meeting with us um she'll be here till next Thursday but this will be the last time you see her in an official role she may be here as a complaining citizen who knows where all the bodies are buried um but um I just like to publicly thank her for everything she did for our organizations our strategic planning our many of our internal systems that you don't know getting this homelessness task force kicked off putting up with all the controversy around the camping policy a million things on the inside anything she was ever asked to do or she did and then volunteered to do even more um amazingly dedicated incredible person and I hope she finds her less uh and thank you for everything it's just been a daily joy even when we were screaming at each other there's no screaming we sure can feel grateful for you yeah thank you for everything you've done here with the city oh my gosh sorry I didn't process that the today was your last meeting with us oh my gosh uh unless you have a special meeting between now and Thursday well we could we could pull one together which case he'll be there good well and um also please pass along to Donna our gratitude um for all of her work with the city um and uh just congratulations on retirement and so grateful for her time and service uh oh with us so yeah yeah that's true great okay um all right so at this point looking at let's let's just go through potentially public comments about any of the three items so starting with the hub lease is there anything that we want to say in public about the hub lease well I will I can report that um you know at the last meeting the council uh approved a negotiation of the house lease of the of a lease for three years with the hub I've had conversations with them and we have reached agreement on a lot of items and have a couple items that I need to review with the council and see where they're at so that's the purpose of this executive session you know it's anybody would like to say either in person or online okay uh all right on the public art commission uh composition meeting anything folks would like to say in public about that and either with us in person or online okay uh and so moving on to the collective bargaining update anything anybody would like to say in public about that I'll just say that um it's been no secret that we've got a real problem with vacancies particularly in public works and police and it's hampering our ability to do our job so we've been in conversations with employees and that those departments about ways to potentially solve some of the vacancy issues and I'd like to review some of those with the city council because and it's because they are in the context of a collective bargaining agreements and would require ultimately would require actual negotiation and you know a signed amendment to agreements okay um anything else about that okay I'm not seeing anyone so um with that said is there a motion to go into executive session oh yes okay notice that some of the motions require different motions than others but probably if you do the premature public then that would cover all of them we're coming this one was just for the public art commission right so um was there a motion about that yes jack we enter it into executive session to discuss uh the uh composition of the public arts commission pursuant to one vsa section 313 a three and four uh relating to appointment employment or evaluation of a public officer or employee or a dismissal disciplinary or dismissal action against a public officer or employee very second second okay further discussion okay all in favor please say aye hi okay and opposed okay so that motion passes uh so we don't need to do any roll call and we will go into executive session about just that item and we will come back out to even if we don't have a um you know something to announce so uh cool and someone will bring the computer in for yes members for all and more yes but we are we will change to the executive session like okay cool thank you and we'll see you in a bit okay uh all right so is there a motion to come out of executive session uh all in favor please say aye second oh second there's there a second there's a second okay second okay thank you uh all right all in favor any further discussion all in favor please say aye aye and opposed okay so that was unanimous so we are back in public session and is there a motion jack go ahead i move that uh the council take the following steps one place the uh member in question tommyl holland on administrative leave to refer the issue that was discussed in executive session to the community justice center for in the hopes of reaching a resolution and three if resolution is not reached that the this would come back to the council for um fact finding and action based on our determination second and just to clarify by administrative leave you mean like leave from the committee yep okay okay clarifying question yep okay you're all good okay my question was going to be you said it would come back to the council for fact finding or do you the council wants to authorize the manager to proceed with fact finding if if before the next council meeting we determined that there won't be a cjc resolution do you want to just move forward or do you want to wait and consider this i would authorize the the manager to engage in a fact finding process and report to the council that's that's what you meant right okay and that's what you're okay john is that right yeah okay uh all right further discussion okay um all in favor please say i okay and opposed all right so that's unanimous um thank you and so the next two items um um i think we need some two motions for at least what for for one of them i was yeah i was just saying for probably for both of them okay um is there a motion about going into executive session uh about the need to go into executive session jack go ahead should should i do one for both the items i think we can yeah i i move that uh the council that make a finding that premature general public knowledge will clearly place the public body at a substantial disadvantage regarding contracts labor relations agreements with employees and that's it okay any further discussion okay all in favor please say i hi hi and opposed okay and jack go ahead we enter executive session to discuss the issues relating to the lease of the building at 203 country club club road and the issue about collective bargaining agreements with the city employees okay further discussion on favor please say i hi hi and opposed okay so that is unanimous we're going to go into executive session and we don't anticipate coming out to make any further motions except for adjourn so yeah fyi cool thank you onward