 Welcome once again to The Breakfast here on Plus TV Africa. Our first major conversation this morning is taking a look at the current issues Nigeria, you know, is dealing with with regards to the arrest of Namdikhanu, the leader of the IPOB and Sondegbo, the Eurovastor session is the leader. We, of course, are going to be speaking this morning with Nik Gule, who's joining us from Abuja. Good morning, Mr. Gule. Good morning. Good morning. How are you today? Fantastic. Thanks for joining us. The conversation really is about the role Nigeria, what Nigeria is trying to achieve in arresting these persons and how it might be difficult, or maybe really easy for Nigeria. The country has always been seen as the big brother in the African continent, but at the same time there's other angles that I believe need to be looked at here. So let's first of all get your views on Sondegboho's arrest and the reports this morning of the Republic of Ben Air refusing to, you know, go with Nigeria's demand of repatriating him to the country. My view on the arrest of Sondegbo in the Republic of Ben Air is that the Nigerian government must have had a role in this by informing the authorities in Ben Air Republic, declaring Sondegboho as a fugitive and someone who is on the run from the law and possibly involved the Interpol as well. And as Sondegboho was at the airport trying to board the flights, as it is said to the western country, he was apprehended and I follow him on Twitter. So this morning he has tweeted that he's going to be caught in Kotonu and that his followers were close back and join him. So that indicates that legal proceedings possibly for extradition have commenced or are about to commence in the Republic of Ben Air. And that will be at the biggest of Nigeria that must have requested for his extradition to Nigeria. And this is a bit different from the case of Nandikano, who was moved to Nigeria. And Sondegboho's tweet this morning indicates that in Ben Air Republic the legal process is actually being followed because he said he's going to be caught. So that's my view on the Sondegboho scheme. So Mr Agule, we discussed the issue of the role of the Ben Air Republic in this matter with Sondegboho and the federal government. And one of the things I raised was the extradition treaty of 1984 between Thurgut, Nigeria, Ghana and Ben Air Republic. And we talked about how in this extradition treaty it went on to guarantee secession, the rights of secessionist agitators and that these people have this freedom and that there will be no extradition plan regarding that. So we see now that Ben Air Republic seem to be saying that the rule of law will take precedence. How do you think Nigeria is going to react to this? Because right now the federal government is not saying anything. When Nigeria has no choice than to follow the rule of law, it is actually very, very good. I mean, I give kudos to the leadership, the political leadership in Ben Air Republic for insisting on the rule of law. If we don't run things with the law, things are not going to work well. Those countries where we think things are working, like in the developed world or in the advanced world or in the western world, things are working there because everybody has been brought under the law. It doesn't matter whether you are the president or you are the prime minister or you are the lowest man in the society. In fact, the bigger you are, the better the law goes after you. You know, there are certain things that maybe the man on the street can do that can get away with it. But a big man cannot get away with it because the whole media and everybody will be asked to ensure that the rule of law prevails. So if we want to build a country that is going to develop and will be enjoyed by every citizen, we have no choice than to follow the law. So Ben Air Republic are very, very correct to insist on the rule of law. And Nigeria, we should have no reaction to it other than to follow the rule of law so that at the end of the day, we know whether Sunday Igboho can be legally restricted back to Nigeria or not. The law must take its course and Nigeria must accept that. Okay. So I want us to look at this from the standpoint of Nigeria being that giant of Africa, that country that, you know, when it sneezes, the rest of Africa catches cold. And how Nigeria and the government seem to want to, you know, exert its influence to say that Ben Air Republic must release Sunday Igboho. But now they have, you know, resisted that. So would you say that Nigeria might regard this as a slap on its face? Well, if Nigeria regards a legal proceeding, a country, a sovereignty insisting on the rule of law and that a legal proceedings must be followed and takes that to be a slap on their face, then Nigeria is the one slapping itself on the face in the, in the, in the, in the committee of nations where we will be making a laughing stock would become a joke in the eyes of the international community as a country that is lawless, that is a country that does not want to follow the law. So Nigeria has no choice that to follow the law as being insisted upon by the Republic of Ben Air. This is not a case of slapping in the face. We are not in a dictatorship. We're in a democracy. And in a democracy, people's human rights must be, must be, must be, must be, must be obeyed, must be respected. And if a Republic like Ben Air insists that the rule of law must take its place, we have no choice that to allow the rule of law to take its place. It has nothing to do with slapping us in the face. There initially was some controversy over whether Nigeria did follow this same rule of law with regards to repatriating or bringing Namdeekandu back to Nigeria from Kenya where he was reportedly arrested. There was, you know, conversations back then a few weeks ago, whether they, you know, we broke some international laws and the likes. But with regards to Sunday Boho's case, the Nigerian government has so far been silent. There's still be no word from the Nigerian government as to what exactly has happened or, you know, what role they played. So is it important that we hear from the Nigerian government to know exactly why Sunday Boho was arrested in Ben Air Republic, if it was done in collaboration with the Nigerian government in the first place, or they're just taking advantage of the fact that he was arrested for breaking a different law entirely in Ben Air? It's very important. Communication is a key ingredient in governance, especially political governance. The Nigerian government has no choice than to communicate with the people. Nigeria must communicate with the people. We have countries where the president are coming out to talk to the people. They're coming out to inform the people and give people updates about the goings-on in governance. And we're not having that in Nigeria. So we expect a statement either from the presidency, as in Nigeria would all expect the president to address matters like this. But the presidency most of necessity address Nigeria's on the situation. Is it Nigeria that asks for the arrest of Sunday Boho? Is it Nigeria that is seeking for the traditional Sunday Boho? Or Nigeria does not have a hand in this? This is very, very key that we must hear from the highest authorities in the government of Nigeria as what is going on as regards Sunday Boho. This is a key ingredient of governance, especially in a democracy like ours. Once again, good morning to Mark Adebayo. Thank you for joining us. So I'm going to bring you in with regards, understanding exactly what is going on with the silence from the Nigerian government. There is possibilities that the same thing that played out in Kenya, where the government was criticized for maybe also not going through the proper channels to bring Namdi Kandabak to Nigeria. There's people who have said that maybe it's the same thing that they are trying to do here with Sunday Boho, but it seems to be failing. So is it important that we understand why it was arrested? And also, what would you say is the due process that must be followed in a case like this before Sunday Boho would be brought back to Nigeria? Thank you so much. The due process, the international best practices would be that if it could be established that Sunday Boho was a one-term fugitive or a fugitive from the law, the normal process is to take him to court in that country while a tradition case will be leveled against him and he will give his case in court. So it depends on the legal processes of that country that would enable him to be repatriated to Nigeria. But you cannot just grab him like you did with Kandabak and bring him to Nigeria to face the law. It is as a matter of fact, it's an international crime. Now what is happening now is that Nigeria is increasingly behaving like a rogue country, like a rogue state. You know, behaving like a rogue state and it would cause it a lot of problems in the committee of nations, the way we are behaving. Let us even go back to the basics, to the fundamentals. What are the crimes of a Sunday Boho? A Sunday Boho that you also would say that enough of killing my people, enough of raping my people, enough of destroying the properties and farms of my people, how does that amount to cry? It does not, in any way, it does not amount to cry. So, you see, look, you push people to serve her when you have a really responsible government that refuses to protect the people, that refuses to defend the people, a government that actively supports killer adders, that actively, actively, a presidency that actively supports killer adders, that you cannot expect the people to sit back and do nothing to defend themselves. Self-defense cannot be a crime. I have not seen anywhere where whoever that Sunday Boho has committed any crimes for him to be haunted internationally. Like I did say at the beginning, Nigeria is becoming a rogue state. And I want to seriously advise this federal government, this is not 1984, this is not 1985. And aside from the fact that we are not in the military junta, General Muammar Muwari must understand that this is a democracy. We are supposed to behave like a civilized nation, like a civilized country that we are supposed to be. Okay, Mr. Adebayo. I'm living by the land of Africa. Look, the republic is now trying to teach us how to behave, how not to misbehave internationally. And that is why they are sitting on following due process. Are you aware that even the transition, whatever treaty that was between Nigeria, Assyria, New York, I think Kulival, so forth countries, it does not confer people who are fighting for their rights. It does not confer people who are fighting for self-determination, like in the case of Sunday Adeyemo. It's fighting for self-determination. Whatever that treaty, a transition treaty says that you cannot expect somebody who is fighting for his rights, who is fighting for self-determination. So, I do not see how Nigeria is going to win the case in court. We cannot speak. Okay, Mr. Adebayo. But we must say that they are applying diplomatic pressure on the republic. Mr. Adebayo, I just want to quickly, if necessary, fix one of the statements you made. You said the government is actively supporting killer headers. Those are pretty strong statements. I don't know if you would like, if you stand by them or you would like to retract those statements. I stand by the fact that the federal government under General Mahmoud Diwari is a major enabler and protector of killer headers. Why do I mean? The southern governors decided that they wanted to set up a military southwest. The federal government resisted them because they wanted to defend their people. When governor Kerry Dhoni declared that all his bushes, the bushes in the state, must be rid of killer headers. The federal government too got back here who rose up against him. The attorney general of the presidential rose against him. When they said they are banning open places in the south, the whole of the state of the south, the northern governors, the presidency, the attorney general of the federation, including Mahityala rose against these governors, sitting governors. So, that's why I say they speak for them, they protect them, they defend them. I mean, those are the evidences, those are the facts. And when Mr. Dhoni was killed in Odo State, it was discovered that one of the major killers who were unable to kill him was the PR of Mahityala in Odo State. But each time the state governments of the south, the state governors of the south, come up with an initiative to protect the people from killer headers. It differs people, it differs agencies that have your rights, so it differs of the gladness in the presidency. Okay, Mr. Maka Dibayo, Mr. Dibayo, thank you very much. Kenny Holder, let's bring in Mr. Nika Gula to share his views regarding this. Mr. Gula, can you hear us? Yes. Okay, fantastic. So, on the back of what Mr. Dibayo said, I've been able to pull out a report by Vanga newspaper that says that the presidency is arresting secessionists and romancing bandits. How do you react to that? We are in a democracy. So, in a democracy, we have to carry on with the government process as it was. Mr. Gula? A democracy is a government by and the people have to decide or have the people of Nigeria want to come to a table and discuss the future of Nigeria. It will be a lot to happen. Unfortunately, those who crafted the constitution of Nigeria did not constitution of Nigeria and that you cannot force people into a marriage. There has to be a provision for a referendum and not a provision for a referendum. It's not only for secession. A provision for a referendum could even be like we went and joined after, which is the African Free Trade, Continental Free Trade Agreement. Ideally, we needed a referendum before we joined that. It's the same way in the EU, any nation in the EU that joined the EU had a referendum for their people to say they want to join the EU or not. And as in the case of the United Kingdom, after they joined the EU, they had a referendum to exit from the EU, which is called Brexit. Brexit was a referendum by the people. So, the Nigerian constitution must make provision for the referendum and it be forced on Nigerians, on Nigerians to hold their representatives in the National Assembly accountable to amend the constitution of Nigeria and provide for the referendum. Because without a referendum, the voices of the people cannot be heard in this democracy. And a democracy without the voices of the people is not democracy at all. Okay, so, Mr Agouli, also, what do you say to how this situation has now turned out? Where it seems that Nigerians are speaking in one voice, when you check social media, you hear statements from clerics, from politicians, all saying that Sondir Bohu is a freedom fighter and how it seems that the federal government is going after him, have something to put him on this pedestal and the Nigerians now support him and see him as a hero. There are two things I support who are telling me that the people, if they want to succeed, be given a voice to say so. But I don't believe that that should be pursued through extradition or extralegal means. It has to be followed by the rule of law. So, I would say that the process that needs to be followed by the Sondir Bohus and the Mendecanus is not to take any arms and begin to fight for this position because that is not the rule of law. What they need to do and Mendecanus Sondir Bohu and whoever has this idea of safe determination is to follow the due course of the law and the due course of the law is first and foremost to amend the constitution of Nigeria so that when we amend the constitution of Nigeria to make provision for a referendum then a referendum is called and when the referendum is called, whatever is the decision of the people via that referendum must be obeyed. So, for instance, Mendecanus agitation, the constitution of Nigeria, sorry. I think you can go on, but we need to move to Adebayun a bit. But I was just going to say that would be in a situation where there is a huge level of trust for the National Assembly members that you're referring to. If you want them to reach out to their representatives in the National Assembly, I think you may also consider the fact that a lot of these persons may not have a lot of trust in these persons who supposedly represent them. Now, I agree with you that the fact to me, I know everything we have in the National Assembly now, the people who are in Abuja, I don't think they are representing our interests. And we can see how they have carried on with the electoral bill and even the PRB, so, but the constitution that hands the powers to us, we sent them to Abuja. And if they are not in Abuja for our good and they are pursuing some other agenda that is against what we sent our people, the same constitution of Nigeria provides us the powers to recall them, bring them home and then elect those who will go to Abuja and do our bidding. The problem is that Nigerians are so docile. We don't even want to use the powers that have been granted us by the constitution. Just imagine that we had this electoral bill and some senators decided to... Yeah, Mr. Goliak, Mr. Goliak kindly hold on. All those 28 senators, people who sent them to Abuja, that is the only way we can approach those who represent us to account. All right, kindly hold on, Mr. Goliak. I'm going to bring in Mark Adebayo again. One of the things that you mentioned, Mr. Adebayo, is that Nigeria is behaving like a rogue state. So, I want you to share with us from the international community's perspective and also from the rest of Africa. Nigeria has supposedly been Africa's big brother. We've said this a few times, a giant of Africa, biggest economy in Africa, some of all of that. But do you think that these countries can see beyond the lies and the statements of the Nigerian government and see the places where Nigeria has not been entirely honest? Can the international community read between the lines concerning the issues Nigeria is currently dealing with vis-a-vis the statements from the Nigerian government? Thank you so much. Before I address that, I want to agree with Mr. Goliak in the statement that he said Nigerians are so docile. No, Nigerians are not docile. Nigerians are over-traumatized. After decades of misrule, after decades of terrible bad governance, the Nigerians are over-traumatized. There are a lot of courage of Nigerians. Nigerians are not docile. I think it's the elite, it's the elite that is disappointing the mass of Nigerians. It's the elite that has refused to organize Nigerians towards actuating their electoral rights. So we should not believe Nigerians, we should believe the bad leaders, we should believe the terrible, the terrible human beings who are ruling us. So it is not about Nigerians, Nigerians are not docile. Even when the sitting government of the state tried to effect the recall of a senator, it couldn't agree. Because we have a constitution that is a problem to all of us. Now I've been saying that on the issue of the federal government and the international community, and it was in those days that Nigeria was a giant of Africa, that we have long lost our status. Population does not make you a giant. Size does not make you a giant. That you can make noise does not make you a giant. So in the area of economy, even if Rwanda is better than us, Egypt is better than us, Ghana is better than us, many other countries. Nigeria is not among the first 10 best economies in Africa. So we are a giant. But internally we have become an ant. It was a chart that was helping us to fight that this book was wrong. We couldn't, you know, we couldn't. So we are who? Forget about the giant of Africa. So it was in those days that Nigeria was respected as a giant of Africa. Not now that we have a manner of competent rulers, you know, pretending to be leaders in the country. So we are no longer a giant of Africa. We have a lot to learn, even from Rwanda. We have a lot to learn, even from Ghana and even from this small tiny country called the Republic. So forget, don't stop on Nigeria as a giant of Africa. Now, I'm sure that the international community will be able to read in between the lines whether they will intervene in a decisive manner that we will have loved is a different ballgame entirely. So I do not, I do not believe and I do not accept that both Sunday and now the country to be treated like criminals because they are fighting for their rights, they are fighting for their people. You know, it was Francois that said that a society that drives its citizens, its members to a desperate solution is not a society that is, that is viable. It's an unviable society. And that is where Nigeria is. Where you drive your members, where you drive your citizens to desperate situations. Do you know how many decades now we have been calling for, we have been calling for the structuring of this country. We have been calling for the structuring of this country for how many decades now, they refuse to listen. Now, people who thought that even the structuring would not go far enough came up with the idea of self-determination. Now look, let us, let everybody vote their separate ways that Nigeria has aspired. Now, some of us, the few of us that believe that Nigeria should remain one that we should struggle to try and save this dying house. Now, we have been pushed aside by more aggressive, more determined elements, younger elements who believe that look, Nigeria, there's nothing you can do to save Nigeria. Let us move. And then this federal government is behaving in a way that discourages this crossing above the unity of Nigeria. You know. And we have a federal government that behaves as if the staff does not exist. We are behaving as if you are a government of Fulani alone. So how do you want the rest of the country to feel? You know, some of us campaigned for Bwari now in 2014. Some of us, a campaign for Bwari, we thought, within the first one year, he has lost all of us. Because we thought he was coming as a redeemer. We thought he was coming as a laborator. We thought he was coming to do justice. We didn't know he was coming with a preconceived and no religious agenda, which is what is ruining and destroying this country today. So, I mean, if anybody can talk to the president, he's swore to be the president of Nigeria. Okay, tell me, under what circumstance, what did you think informed the meeting between the federal government, including the former chief of Amistar, who is now our ambassador in Buratai, who is now our ambassador in Belenpobi? What did they, what, what did they form their meeting with GMT and they were negotiating with them to give them 100 billion Naira for them to stop the violence, for them to stop the kidnapping. They are begging them with 100 billion Naira. And that's why I said the president is of us there. And I have said on air several times that Mietsiana is a privileged terrorist organization in Nigeria because the government romances with them. Our governors take photographs with bandits. So, Clare is going to the bush to take photographs with GSS operatives, police operatives, standing and posing for pictures with bandits, with terrorists. But why in the south, people who are asking for elementary, fundamental human rights are being held down locally and traditionally to be brought back to Nigeria like animals, to be treated like animals. Nigeria was unable, for 10 years, Nigeria was unable to get rid of the leader of a book warram until his wife helped us to kill him to eliminate him. But now, you go after some targets, people who are asking for freedom. You see, in the south, because of our education, like Mr. Guli has been said, we should follow the rule of law, we should follow the constitution that is not being followed even by the government in power, we should follow all these things. Now, because of our education, because of our civilization, we try to follow these new processes. But what happens? We become 15s of our knowledge and education. The people are carrying arms, are being respected, are being re-bossed by the government. We remember what happened in Safara State. The party leader that was brought into the town and given millions of Naira, bought a camp, given a house, and the government resubmission area in Safara State, what happened? He went back to the bush. He went back into the bush. Mr. Maka Debayo, please can you hold on. Let's bring in Mr. Naira Guli for his thoughts, you know, where you stopped. Mr. Guli, can you hear us? Yes, I can hear you. Okay, so when you see what's happening on social media, what Nigerians are saying, and it just seems, you know, like I mentioned earlier that Sunday Wuhu has garnered a lot of support. I saw one report, I don't know how verifiable that is, that Sunday Wuhu has about 318 million supporters. But what impacts do you think this might make and have in Nigeria? If it turns out that Nigerians, you know, begin to organize protests here, especially in the Southwest, you know, in defense of Sunday Wuhu. Sunday Wuhu is gathering support because the Nigerian government we have today is alienating our people. And it's precisely because the people don't feel they have a government that is protective of them, a government that is delivering good governance to them, a government that sees every Nigerian as equal and having an equal state in the federation of Nigeria, that is making people to turn to the lives of Sunday Wuhu and Nandikano. This is the testament on the performance of government. I believe that the Nigerian government should be worried about this. If Sunday Wuhu and Nandikano are generating or gathering or gathering this kind of support, it's a testament that the Nigerian government is not providing any self sanctuary for everybody. Now, what put to me the support that the lives of Nandikano and Sunday Wuhu have should be put to use, should be put to use in a democratic setting. I'm not in an arms, yes. How can that be put to use? Okay, fine. So what I'm saying is that instead of going on an armed insurrection, because that is not going to do anybody any good. And you know, the federal agents are going to come and carry out all sorts of genocides, genocidal acts against the people. So an arts insurrection for me is actually against the people. So the Sunday Wuhu and Nandikano should use the support that they have in a democratic setting, first and foremost, getting people to the ballot box. Get people to the ballot box so that we can let those who can vote for us. Those who say that the ballot box is not an effective means of getting the government we want are not correct because the politicians are afraid of our votes. If they were not afraid of our votes, they will not be trying to tamper with the electoral bill to stop things like electronic transmission. They will not be trying to inject partisan people like Mrs. Sotoche into INEC. They are doing all these things because they are afraid of our votes. Our votes are our weapons. And if you are faced with an enemy, you don't throw your weapons away. That is when you use your weapons and confront the enemy with. So Nigerians must go out and vote. The INEC has now opened the portal for registration. Last election, we had 30 million Nigerians come out to vote for the presidency. Can we get 50, 60, 80, 100 million Nigerians come out and vote for candidates at all levels that will do our bidding, that will provide us accountable and responsive governance. If we don't do this, then we can analyze on this live TV, write on Facebook, on social media for another four years. And this will not change. Sunday, you get the European states to start recording all the European senators. Record them from Abuja. He has the support. Let them use it. Bring back all the senators. And then a less than a dozen will go to Abuja and put a referendum in the conversation. Okay. All right. Mark Adebayo, one thing that always comes up with regards to these conversations is interest. And there's always the argument that countries would never step in or never get involved with some of all these things because they have interest to protect. If you remember, you know, when there have been numerous agitations and people keep asking for the UK's or the United States or Donald Trump's or Joe Biden's involvement, there's always a reminder that these countries have interest. And if the interests are not in any way disturbed, then they have no business getting involved with, you know, the internal issues of Nigeria. And of course, as a sovereign state also. So I want to know what you think about Nigeria's value as it stands to countries, the neighbouring West African countries and also maybe the international community. Do you think Nigeria still has a lot of value that it offers to these countries that, you know, makes them always want to be on Nigeria's good side? Well, you say you are correct on that. The Western world, the advanced countries will never intervene in any situation no matter how bad it may be if there are no interests, especially their economic interest, you know, as far as their security interest. So they will not, they will not, they really don't care. That is why you can see that if internationally some countries from powerful countries are blocking and sale to Nigeria, it's as bad as that. It still shows how useful to them Nigeria has become for them to be blocking arms sales to Nigeria. So that is why I keep telling some of our people in the human rights community that people should not depend on the international community to start a fight because they are not going to come to your aid. Right? In their presence for in less than four months, one million people were murdered in Rwanda. People who are waiting for international community to come to their aid, nothing ever came. Today, they've imposed some poorer sanctions on Burma. But the military there is still, is it in power, is it killing people, see mass killing people? People that want freedom should not depend on international community to fight for their freedom. What we can do is to make use, is to take advantage of the international instruments of liberation that are favorable. You go to the international criminal court to present your case, you understand? You go to the United Nations to present your case for self-determination. So where there are international instruments, legal instruments that can help you do that, that is what you can do on international basis. But do not believe that if you throw your country into crisis, you know that anybody is going to come to your aid. Nigeria is not that useful to the international community anymore. So if not, they will not be blocking arms sales to fight the soldiers in Nigeria. And that is because they know that when they give you this weapons, even the lethal that we have, we are not turning it against the terrorists, we are turning it against freedom fighters, and search peaceful or armed protesters. So the international community will not give you arms to kill people who are not a problem to your country. How do you, how do you, how does anybody justify the fact that people are protesting peacefully without arms and you go there and they shoot them, like bullet. Look at what happened recently. We had that 25-year-old need to get shot dead by the police. The CPU of Lakers came out lying, telling lies to the old world that they did not use live ammunition in that protest. And then it came out, the autopsy report came out to say the young lady was killed by bullets. Well, how do you, how do you expect the international community to allow them to sell arms to kill innocent people? That is one of the things that we need to do. Have you said that? A friend, a friend who you're supposed to know, a friend on the, on international affairs with bias with the security studies once told me that we should, that one of the fears of the international community is that they do not want to have another Islamic state in Africa in addition to their problems. That if they allow, if they support the south to go, if they support the south to go, and if you allow them not to be, to be there, did not, we automatically, you know, most likely going to be another Islamic state, which the, the international community does not want. So by that, it is in their interest to keep us together, no matter the injustices, no matter the equities, no matter the imbalances. They believe it is out, should come in to suffer. And if you know the way we came out, we might as Nigeria, the, the ignoble roads played by the UK in making the north stronger, bigger than, than the south, you will know that the UK is not our friend in the south. Recently in Tarrabastit, the 1900s state held a meeting. Then the, the UK ambassador was there, present there. The question was that when the 17,000 state governors were meeting, she never came. So people were wondering what was her interest. We are in the same clout with the other state governors and we went there for the, for when Obama was, was, was the president. The then, the then Secretary of State went to, came to Nigeria, did not go, did not go to Abuja. Did not go, was president there. Did not go to Abuja. Went straight to Sokoto to meet with Sokoto and went to meet a few, a few, a few governors in the north. Thereafter, about 10 governors of the north went to visit, to visit him in Washington. So there is a, there's an international conspiracy. I believe there's an international conspiracy even to make Nigeria the main one despite the injustices, despite the imbalances. And that is why we must not play to their hands. It is in that respect that I, I support what Mr. Agulia said that we should try and follow the process in, in for me, in terms of international diplomacy of self-determination. But in Nigeria, for us to depend on this national assembly to do, to input a referendum clause to the Nigeria constitution, we will wait forever. We will wait forever. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, good bye. And then we'll stop them, send them to us. We went and voted against electronic transmission of resource. Then when they are voted against it, electronic transmission of resource. So justice is not likely to control elections in this country. And that is why some people who are, if you like, of, well, maybe if you like violent in nature, or who, who wish that, who say that the, that the vehicle of justice is, is rolling too slowly and likely to take up, to take processes that are not going to be totally legal. And the people will follow them. That is why you have the support for, so they go and some of us who did not support them before, but because of the way they have been treated, because of the way we this has been treated, then we, we are not sure that to support them now. I do not know whether we have listened to the, the mayor, the mayor of Nigeria State in his Ramadan, in his other message yesterday, just yesterday or the day before yesterday. The mayor was so angry that he declared war on the full land in Nigeria, in Nigeria State. I don't know whether we have seen that for you. It's a very serious one. If it is in the south, any monarch says that, by now the SS will have faded his powers and taken me away. Thank you, Mr. Adibayo. Let's bring in Mr. Agule for his final thoughts. Mr. Agule, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. So we know that it's, you know, instances like this, that is enough to cause a diplomatic role between countries. How do you think this might affect the diplomatic relations between Nigeria and the Republic? Do you think the government is not putting sanctions? No, so I'll come back again with that question. I said, how do you think this, it's an instant, might cause a diplomatic role, or might affect the diplomatic relations between Nigeria and Bene? Do you see Nigeria putting its weight to impose any sanctions of any sort on Bene Republic? I completely agree with what my co-panelist, Makadebayo, said. It's unfortunate that a small, a very tiny country, West Africa Bene Republic is teaching the so-called diet of Africa in a democracy. Nigeria has no choice than to follow due process and the rule of law which Bene Republic wants to follow. I cannot see how Nigeria can start a diplomatic route with Bene Republic when Bene Republic is insisting on the rule of law. If Nigeria attempts anything like that, will we only saw the moral of our image in the international community? So for me, we have no choice. If Bene Republic says, Lord, we are putting this thing through our legal process, Nigeria just needs to follow that process. It is the only way that we get confident. Okay, Miss Agulay, it's unfortunate what you're up to. What's struggling to hear you apologize for that? Yes, Miss Agulay. Kindly hold on. Let's get him, Mr. Dibayo, for his final thoughts. Still about this situation, do you foresee any diplomatic, yes, Mr. Dibayo, do you foresee any diplomatic impact between Nigeria and Bene Republic? Like we see in other countries, maybe Nigeria recalling her Benenoan ambassador or any other diplomatic move by Nigeria that this equal case, yes, or even closing the borders, yes. Do you see Nigeria taking any action on Bene Republic based on this incident? It just took, it just took the words straight out of my mouth now. That is, we have a very vengeful, very extremely vengeful presidency in place now. The number one stick they are going to use was to close the borders. If Bene Republic refuses to play ball as they want it, they definitely are going to come up with some funny sanctions against the Republic. About 70% of the cross-border trips that Bene does with any country comes to Nigeria. So during the Abbasid regime, Abbasid did not say, did not threaten them that we were going to close the border. Abbasid threatened them that he was going to annex, he was going to annex the Republic of Bene to Nigeria because they thought that Radio Kunirai was being run from Bene Republic and they thought that Professor Wajiloshui Inka was also in Bene Republic. So that was why you know people like Dr. Kingba and Ko who, many of them of his life who are in Bene Republic, they had to take off from Bene Republic already because Bene could not start the military strength at that time. Not now, at that time, because Abbasid threatened to annex Bene Republic to Nigeria. It was that place. So now what the definitive government of Nigeria would do in the case of Ibuho if Bene Republic refuses, insists on following international best practices of following the process? It would be number one to close the border and probably recall, they may not recall and they may recall their ambassador and tell them to recall their own too. So they are probably going to win the huge armor and then discontinue our international collaboration in terms of patrolling the international waters that are going to stop the, to stem the ties of pirates operating on their own. So they could do that. Mr. Dibayo, we actually are out of time. Can you in 10 seconds, in just the smallest amount of words, tell us about the influence of Tukor Barotai, the chief of army staff, a former chief of army staff who is now a non-carry ambassador. Does he have any influence in this situation? It definitely does. It definitely does and it's going to be huge. It's going to be huge. Mark Dibayo, thank you very much. We appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much for a very interesting conversation. Thank you and thank you very much for your time. We appreciate you joining us from Abuja. Thank you so much. Sorry for the network. It has been very bad. Have a great day gentlemen. It's been an interesting time here on the breakfast. If you missed out on any part of the conversation, do remember to follow us on all our social media pages and on YouTube, we're at PLOS TV Africa. And if you're not following us yet, please do on our new channel. It's at PLOS TV Africa Lifestyle. I am Annette Finlith.