 We're to have you back here on the breakfast on plus TV Africa our next conversation this morning is on the Latest revelations on the minister of communications and digital economy as a pan tammy new release documents have it well Implicated and spread some light on the ideologies of the communications and digital economy minister the document Which has been widely shared contains the minutes of a supposed meeting of a religious organization J&I in it alleged plans to wage a war on persons of another religious or leaning communications minister allegedly chaired the meeting in 2010 and there has currently been no reaction from the minister or the federal government But a number of people have increased their call on pan tammy to resign Joining us to look at this is a freelance journalist david hundane who has been investigating and of course putting this A lot of information concerning this story out there. Good morning to you david Good morning We're also speaking this morning from abuja with the spokesman of the aroa youths for peace and security Good morning, mr. Dantata Very good morning, my brother. Thanks for joining us. All right. I'm going to start with Mr. Dantata this morning It's been a very very interesting week For issa pan tammy and of course for nigerians who have been following up on this conversations But I want your quick thoughts on the latest revelations the meeting in 2010 the conclusions that you know where met at that meeting What do all these things mean to you and how damaging you know might this be? Well as a professional As well as a seasoned public affairs analyst I don't see it as a big deal Because the issues are issues that happen Before his appointment as a minister of federal republic of nigeria. And you know in nigeria, for example, we have to Secular we are a circular state with two leading religion Christianity and islam as at the time the honorable minister of communication made the statement He was he wasn't appointed minister He was just a cleric of the islamic faith And even in bible and quran When somebody makes mistakes and admits and ask for forgiveness the two holy books quran and the bible respectively Gives that opportunity in some chapters and verses where such persons are Forgiving for some of their utterances or misdeeds and the minister of communication did come out to say yes I did I made I made such utterances in the past But I am very sorry at the time the former u.s democrat president bill clinton Had an affection in the white house with a white house Inter Monica Lewinsky Against opposition backdrop and call for his resignation. The moment he apologized American as civilized as their democracy was forgive him Apologize, uh, I just want to quickly step in here and be sure that we're on the same page The conversation we're having this morning is not on the videos And the audio clips that were released a couple of days ago We're talking of a new release document of a meeting that was held in 2010 by the gni. It was chaired by Issa pantami And it speaks of jihad it speaks of chasing away and of course violence against people of a different faith It speaks also on the katana state governor back then yakoa. It speaks on so much Are you saying that these things also should be seen as you know, pantamis passed and should be ignored and forgiven Absolutely, absolutely. You see there is no difference Uh between the statement he made as a member of uh, gni and other groups and uh, the Other accusation all I'm trying to say is now it's a minister These statements were made before he was appointed a minister And why did it take so long for these statements to be brought to public? Domain because during the time he was to be appointed the minister They went through a thorough senate ministerial screening. These were the time that these are Critics and people that are bringing this To the forefront ought to love taking such petitions before the senate leadership Not to allow the screening of pantami to go on then as a ministerial nominee not now So matter what water and how tangible these are petitions. They are bringing now No reasonable and sensible person is going to take them serious because we are attaching it to fanaticism. We are attaching it to politics of Denton office image Especially as he has taken certain steps to ensure that everybody enrolled for the national identification number Which is trying to expose certain people that have been supportive of Terrorism supportive of unbanditry and also others So I feel certain people are not With the initiative of the honorable minister to say that this NIN Registration must be complied with and certain criteria must be made except Uh, all that I made nobody is going to be able to continue to make call Mr. Danteta Okay, so just to make sure we're all on the same page. I am going to be reading out a few statements You know from these documents that were that we're talking about so On the you know 13th of july 2010 On the 10th 13th of july 2010 there was a meeting by the gni the janatu Islam, you know group based in kaduna You know with four states consisting of plato bounty kaduna and niner state This held in bounty state and this meeting was chaired by malam ali ibrahim panthemi You know, then he was a cleric now in this meeting They talked about the liberation of kaduna state They said they were going to re-strategize towards the full implementation of jihad in joss and plato state and kaduna And that you know, they were going to receive or treat reports that that christians were persecuting muslims in northern nigeria At the end of the day they reached the following conclusion. They said one 90 days from now Muslims was ensured that peace has escaped kaduna state They say muslims must hunt all christians, especially those in the cities Number three They say we must either use the security or other means to eliminate the governor And we're talking about the then governor patrick yakoa We must use all security means to eliminate governor yakoa his family and all those that they perceive are supporting him Number four They say we must face and frustrate all christians in kaduna who are civil servants and traders Number five They say attacks must continue to be launched against christians predominated areas as signals before jihad They say they shall use their men who are in the military and help bring alms and ammunition into kaduna Number seven use all resources possible to control the security before and after jihad And that this is highly confidential and must be related to all muslims who wish to support this movement David today Do you see these points? As not a big deal And to be only taken serious by unreasonable people like mr. Dantata has said um I'm going to try to um Moderate my answer as best as I can because um, I don't want to get you guys taken off the air So um there with me here, but I have absolutely I couldn't believe what I was hearing just now I'm not sure mr. Dantata actually knows what job he's doing if he thinks that was a defense Of issa pantami. I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing. He said those things that was that were written down in the communique Were not a big deal I don't think he understands the gravity of what he just said. He essentially just admitted To a serving minister of the federal republic of nigeria Plotting murder plotting a genocide in 2010 and he has come here to say it was not a big deal because it happened before He was a minister What? Are you serious right now? How does that make Listen, I I currently am in possession of the 1000 page reports About violence in the middle belt of nigeria. This report was presented to the united states government The united states government in 2020. He was uh cited by mike pens the former vice president Of the us and i'm just going to show you a few brief excerpts from that report I'm hoping it's a really lengthy report one thousand pages, but i'm just going to turn a few pages Okay, and show you something right now look at these pages, right? Can you see these names? Yes These names every single name here is a dead person Every single name here is a christian who was killed in the middle belt since 2010. I'm going to keep turning and turning Every single name you see here is a dead person I can keep turning for another 50 pages. It goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on like this Every single name you see here is a dead person. So david, can you tell us how how they died? Do you do you have that information? No, it was miss pedanta that on about when he says it was not a big deal Does he understand that that meeting essentially condemned all those people that just showed you to death Does he understand that there were real world consequences of that meeting? Does he understand that he just admitted to a serving federal government minister plotting a religious genocide? Does he does he understand the gravity of what he just admitted on national television? Is is is he sure he knows what he's saying or does he want to recount everything he just said? Okay, so well David, um, let's bring her back. Uh, danta tata. Um, so danta tata. Um, i'm sure you've been following I want you, you know your response to that Well, you see, you yeah, you see what my friend is saying over there Is just like trying to incite the nigerian society Because even him as a journalist his role Is to serve as watchdog and mouthpiece of the society to know what to say when and how At this time that the nation is facing problem of terrorism I'm banditry that creates an order threat to our That security is what I want us to I want you to address. Do you agree that your statements earlier? Um, I have basically meant that you agreed that that meeting held those uh, agreements were were had in that meeting and uh, the Minister shared that meeting and of course it was a part of that meeting and those agreements were had Are you agreeing that all of those things happened? But you're simply saying Kindly hold on sir. Are you agreeing that those things happened and those? You know the uh, conclusions were reached at that meeting But the challenge here is that it was all done before he became minister Let me ask my uh, my co-guest certain questions He said it held can he produce audio evidence or television evidence? He affirmed that it was said to be kept confidential by who you should know that the nigerian state has security apparatus Running from department of state services that have the is intelligence gathering mechanism Also have the police first criminal intelligence department as well as in every state command You have what you call criminal investigation department in a country like nigeria Where all the intelligence apparatus of the security is working? I don't think if that kind of meeting held that is genocidal By jamat to nasir islam and in kaduna at that time. I don't think somebody like phantom Even though he was no minister then will have been left without not been arrested So I think it is the antics of detractors. They are being economical of the truth And if they have any proof like I challenge them audio or television Let them bring it to the forefront and again. I want to reemphasize that That is what you call department of state services screening of any nigerian citizen that is designated for either ambassadoria ministeria or Headship of any of the sensitive federal agencies in nigeria What happens to the security checking background checking and other reports as well again? What stopped these same opponents that are bringing this issue to the forefront now to la second to the senate screening committee No matter how beautiful These are criticisms. They are raising are they are no longer holding water That is even to tell you that there is no audio or television evidence Any of these people raising these issues now can bring and for my friend to tell me That I am trying to Is not true because even if you take issues related to this to the international criminal court at the egg They will first of all ask you of the audio or television evidence is most of the eye profile personalities from char tale or to bad boy or other international Suspect that have been taken to international criminal court that were audio and television evidences that They committed against humanity and were involved in certain things that made people to lose their lives Well, I feel this issue of the communication minister. We're gonna go back to deep what it is. I kind of hold on Are now sensible to reason from fiction to reality. Absolutely. Um, we're gonna go back to david I think Aneta wants to uh, bring him in here. I will just quickly know that there was audio You know in the past and that audio clip, you know that you know You know was released, you know of the minister speaking is the same audio clip that there's you know That people are saying they should be forgiven You know, so I don't think it's a lack of audio or video that you know should be our challenge here, but um, okay David It's great that when you talk about journalism, we're dealing with half facts and evidence So far we've heard an audio clip, right? I wonder if mr. Dantata has seen that or heard that because We all heard that clip and uh in it We heard how, you know, pantomy Basically was, you know, advocating for the defense of the lives of terrorists saying they shouldn't be killed Even though he did raise some points that you know, lots of people agree with saying they should have been tried Rather than just been shot shot dead just like that, you know, that's a valid point protection of human rights, right? But also we heard him talk about, you know, how, you know, osama biladim was a better muslim than he was Than he is and how he professed support for groups like the taliban and other, you know, terrorist groups So bringing in your investigation because i'm aware that you've dug into this dug into pantomy and all the allegations about him What did your investigations reveal when you looked into pantomies past and really For people who have been saying his past has no bearing on his present and future. What do you say to that? I just want to quickly respond to uh, what sally who said because again It strikes me that this person you brought on the show doesn't really have a Solid grasp of the fact at all the meeting in question Isn't some conspiracy theory somewhere. It was actually in the news. It was recorded. You can google it It was on vanguard news. It was on p.m. News. It was on daily son. It was all over the media. It actually happened What has changed now is that the communique that came out of that meeting has become public knowledge now But that meeting actually happened. It was actually in the news So I don't know what he's talking about when he says oh, uh, where is the evidence? It was it's on the record that that meeting happened and then when he says oh That the dss and and the senate screen ministerial candidates Well, again, obviously he has got me following the news because if you had been following the news as I yesterday If the immediate past director of dss Uh, uh, uh, i'm a that's a mockery Spoke to punch in his paper and he said that the dss wrote a dossier on issa phantomy Recommending that the president should not hire him because of his past and the president ignored the dss And chose to hire him anyway Right and it also emerged yesterday that at the senate hearing where phantomy was confirmed The hearing lasted for only 11 minutes and there was no question that was entertained about his past So again, he's being very either he has no idea what he's talking about He's been very economical with the truth and he says that as I mean was played by the dss That is absolutely false. He was not played by the dss dss recommended that he should not be hired and president buhari for reasons best known to him Chose to hire him anyway And then the senate hearing was a mockery lasted for just 11 minutes now Um, it's it's important to separate issues here when you're talking about going back to your question The audio clips in question are separate. I separate issue to the j&i statement which which was released yesterday Those audio clips dating back to the uh early to mid uh notice to pick phantomy at his Peak as a cleric in bouchie states where he had a reign of terror at ati b uh, basically advocating for al-qaeda and the talent back right now uh This that the details of that speech have actually been in the public domain since 2019 When a professor of contemporary islamic studies Dr. Andrea Brigadier Who used to be at the university of capetown center for contemporary islam and is now at the University of naples in ity Published a research paper called debating boko hara and in that paper He repeatedly mentioned he repeatedly made reference to imam issa al-ibrayim phantomy And his ideological dispute with mamid yusuf in that paper He did a translation of the speech in question which was called suway yang taliban, which means who is the taliban now It has been in the public domain But he perhaps he didn't make the news because there wasn't an audio file to support This thing yet a few weeks ago the audio files showed up on the internet I'm not quite sure how it showed up on a night on a nigerian muslim community website, but it showed up and It showed an anonymous source hinted me as to its existence And that was where my curiosity was piqued because then I was able to Actually confirm that this speech actually happened. This is the audio. This is phantomy's voice I actually used voice analysis software And eventually phantomy himself confirmed that he did say those things. This is phantomy's voice This is him saying these things So after I did the first article and then phantomy tried very disingenuously to infer That perhaps dr. Brigadier's translation was wrong. Perhaps he doesn't understand how separately perhaps he has something against him Then I had a native house has picked up on a raise in kaduna To actually translate the video and then I did the second article and if you look it's on news wire ngr It's right there where I extracted the audio from from that video And I very carefully used the translations to subtitle the videos all these things are in the public domain So if it's not this is not a conversation about oh There's lack of everything Or it's a position. There's no supposition here, but I have done my job and I am very good at my job Right. So we're no longer having a conversation about whether this happened or whether it's a phantomy is an extremist It's happening and he is an extremist. So the conversation we should be happening. We should be having now is why is he still in office? He shouldn't be in office. The president should have fired him Last week David, uh, well that that's you know, a whole new conversation and you know When we bring in the conversation on the reaction of the Nigerian government, hopefully, you know We can bring that up before we end the program. But I want you to in a minute possible Please share with us, you know If it is necessary and if there is any way to link the minutes of that meeting With what has played out security wise in Nigeria in the last 10 years Well, absolutely because as I showed you in the and by the way over the next few hours I'm going to be treating some excerpts from that report because even I've been sitting on it for close to a year now But I think it's time for these things to get into the public to of me There has been an actual genocide which has been perpetrated in middle belt, especially over the past six years Right and our challenge has been to prove That this is not just a some Unfortunate confluence of events that this is actually planned and premeditated Right because that's that's one of the key ways to proving that a genocide has happened You have to prove that it isn't just a bunch of people who died Unfortunately that people actually planned and premeditated this this communique has proven Without a shadow of doubts that what we have seen particularly in the middle belt This is like plateau and benny Over the past six years is absolutely premeditated It was planned and that the violence apart from being ethnic and being economic is also religious Okay, so david today. I want you to just kind of hold your thoughts there. Let's bring in mr. Dantata. Mr. Dantata. Can you hear me? Yes, I'm with right with you fly on so with all the controversy we've seen in the past week Especially with this recently released document What do you say the cause for pantami to resign? Well, I think that call Should be ignored Is Carlos and uh, he's unpatrotic to nation building because so far among the ministers that the president has president Muhammad Bahari Pantami is having the Zil and desire To do certain Things that other of his predecessors did not do in the communication industry. Like I said earlier He reasons for the onslaught against him for the attack against him are not far fetched Simply because of this national identification number that he has made a compulsion Therefore certain people that are disgruntled undesirable are unpatrotic to nation building must do anything To bring him down already the speaker has already done something in the lower chamber by overruling Honorable elume Lu as regarding that and even I believe the upper chamber to will not let it have a light of the day Competence exceeds mediocrity Competence exceeds self-centered interest It exceeds any other antics of people who do not want this administration to succeed And like my co-get said That the former dg of the department of state services had earlier told the president What's top that director general if he was that patrotic at that time to bring it to some media Outfit and let it become a public document Why now there are certain people that are sponsoring certain people to bring Pantami down and we as patrotic We never Are you trying to say that you believe in all honesty that Pantami is a totally different person from who he was Many years ago. Absolutely. You see Absolutely in the in the two religions we have Islam and Christianity Tell me the cleric that either in mocks or church that doesn't preach against certain things You know, we have known Is extremism we're talking about here But David who they would like that you hold on and join us in our next segment Thank you very much for speaking with us and for joining us this morning All right, David who they were Holding on to you if you can We'll like to continue this conversation and speak about the national assembly and of course swimming by Jabia Mila We want to you know speak about the Tribal religious leanings that are possible in Nigeria's national assembly and what happened yesterday with the conversation concerning is a Pantami So stay with us. We'll be back after the short break. Thank you