 Hi, welcome to our show. I mean what we were doing, what the talk at the Central Vista instead we are doing sit and talk on the Central Vista issue. And as you know we're doing a series of episodes. The whole issue of redevelopment of the Central Vista right from the Rashtapati Bhavan to India gate along the Rajapath. And as we have pointed out a lot many buildings are going to be torn down. A new parliament is going to come up. And today we are very fortunate to have with us Mr. Ram Rahman. Thanks Ram for joining our show. And let me also apprise you that Ram happens to be someone who not just inherits the DNA of I mean of Mr. Habib Rahman who was the principal architect with CPWD. In fact was brought by Nehru to construct the post-independence Central Vista buildings along the Central Vista. But also the intellectual who also inherits the intellectual DNA. So Ram I think straight away if we have to start you're taking. No I'm only smiling because you know he didn't design any of the buildings on Central Vista. No but apart from that I saw in one of his interviews I mean he has a comment on this. Oh yeah yeah there's a lot on the building of New Delhi. So we'll talk about that. So the foremost question that I think which is really coming to the fore is that the government is equi-propounding a theory that look we have to Indianize the Indian architecture. And one of the reasons that is pushing this whole redevelopment process is this Indianization of the architecture. And if I may ask because we've done episodes even in the past where Latin's Delhi was considered to be quite syncretic to the Indian ethos because they left the British architecture in Calcutta. And of course when Nehru was planning the development along the Central Vista and other buildings that also contributed a lot to the creation and construction of new buildings. So I mean if we discuss all these three phases from the Latins to 1947 and then from the 1947 to the present era and this whole process of redevelopment how do you really capture all this? Well you see Delhi has an interesting architectural history because Shah Jahanabad which was built by Shah Jahan was the great medieval post medieval city which was a very urban center. And east of that and between that and Tughlaqabad etc were all the ruined seven cities of Delhi. So it was scattered with ruins, there was a lot of open land. When the British decide to shift the capital in 1912 when they make that decision after a lot of debate etc they figure on that Raisina Hill where that village was down to the Jamuna where they'll build the imperial city. You know in all of this you've already discussed with many of the historians and sociologists and architects in your series. But you see what happens with the building of CPWD building of Delhi particularly the Central Vista which is done by architects who the very handful of architects who had been trained in India. We only had three schools of architecture when India became independent. There were more engineering schools you know that had been actually set up by the British and New Delhi was built primarily all by British architects. Some of these architects who remained in PWD had worked at that last phase with the British architects. So the buildings that you're talking about like Shastri Bhavan, Udyog Bhavan, Nirman Bhavan etc were designed by architects like Dio Lalikar who as my father says you know in this long interview which was done in 1989 he was the first chief architect after independence of the Central Public Works Department after the British. Now there's an interesting history to that because I'll quote from here which is my father's narrative which comes from an interview that he yeah this was an interview done by Molloy Chatterjee who was a professor at the School of Planning and Architecture and has been very involved in actually documenting the history of the building of New Delhi. So this is this is the quote, Nehru was disturbed by developments along Central Vista. Dio Lalikar's Bhavans did not appeal to him. Billimoria's Bhavans were under construction and Nehru was apprehensive. In those days a national library and a national theater were proposed along Central Vista. This was actually Lathyan's plan and it's a very important part that we should talk about the Central Vista that crossing of what we then renamed Jan Path and Raj Path. There was to be the National Archives which was built by Lathyan's and the theater which had been designed by Mansingh Rana never got built but that was incorporated into the Indra Gandhi National Center and on the other side was the National Museum which was designed by Dio Lalikar and that was 1950 I think finished in 54-55 and that was very much taking the idiom of Lathyan's but in Dio Lalikar's you know own way. So when you say idiom of Lathyan's I mean could you just define that? Yeah you see what Lathyan's devised for building Delhi. Now you know at this time when New Delhi is being designed the modern movement has already exploded in Europe. So you've got the Bauhaus has been set up, Walter Gropius, the Russian constructivist, the Dutch architects are all building highly modernist housing and office buildings. Now what Lathyan's was doing was completely different from that. He was still harking back to a classicism which was imperial that was the whole notion that the British wanted to do but the ambition was very great because Shusmith who was one of the architect has a wonderful quote saying that what Lathyan's devised which he called the Delhi order including for the columns and the detailing it was actually the last gasp of the Italian Renaissance. So the premise of the idiom is the Renaissance? Yes it is completely taking what Palladio started in Renaissance Italy, taking Palladio's classicism and New Delhi was going to be the grand end point of that style. So the ambition was very big. So here as I said the National Library and National Theatre were proposed along Central Vista. Rana's proposal was shelved and incorporated into the IGNCA. So Nehru set up a Central Vista committee in 1959 because he was so concerned about the building of New Delhi but in a very democratic manner and he had brought these young architects like my father like Kanvinde to Delhi from different cities in India. It was a sort of mini art commission with Joglaker, Benjamin, Billimoria, Kanvinde, Bijit Ghosh and myself amongst the members. Meetings were chaired by Dharam Veera, then Secretary, Ministry of Works and Housing. We could not succeed in improving Billimoria's Bhavans because Joglaker kept insisting that the designs were final and construction had started. So Joglaker is the chief engineer? He was the chief architect at that time after Diolalikar. The committee then turned down the proposal by Gill and myself for extensions to the National Archives. After the DUAC was formed, the Delhi Urban Arts Commission, of which my father was the first secretary in 1974, the Central Vista committee declined in importance but it still exists and can put a spoke in the wheels of any Vista-related project should any of its members be so inclined. I'm not sure whether the committee still exists or not. Let's find out if the committee still exists. But this gives you an idea of, you see Nehru did not override Joglaker or the Minister even though he was unhappy with the design of the buildings. Nehru functioned in a democratic manner and where he could intervene in design terms like with my father with Ravinder Bhavan, he did and helped create a modernist idiom which was to his liking. So Ram, I mean if you could just put it in in a chronological form. You know these days we speak about chronology a lot. So it starts from the renaissance to the modernist Nehru's views of modern India and of course modern architecture and eventually lands up here. See for instance this is 1959 that's the Mazhar of Maulana Azad and this was built at a very historic site in front of the Jama Masjid and what my father did is take the arch proportion from the Masjid from the entrance and abstracted into this thin-shelled cross vault concrete and Nehru loved this and this was this was the kind of Indian modernism that Nehru liked because it had a root in in Indian aesthetics and in Indian building traditions but was using modern material with a modern vision. That's the photograph of Habib Rahman and Pandit Joharal Nehru. So what is he showing? Yeah this was 1961. You see when you're talking about the whole notion of Indianism or Indian style in modern architecture. Ravinder Bhavan is actually a key moment in that whole debate because the first building that my father did looked like an office building. Which one? Avrabindra Bhavan. Now these were being built to commemorate centenary of Tagore in 1961 and they were to be cultural centers. They were being built in all the state capitals. So they were to be libraries, theaters, performing arts centers. So this was the one in Delhi and Nehru looked at the first model and got very upset. He said this looks like an office building and this doesn't look like what you have done with Moolana Azad's Mazhar or Gandhi Ghat in Calcutta which had an Indian idiom to them but they were totally modernist buildings. You know they were not pastiche that you just put a chajja or something randomly on the building. So he forced my father to redesign it in consultation with Nehru actually and that ended up becoming Ravinder Bhavan. Now the material used in that building was very different from what he had done for the office buildings which were quite cheaply built and quickly built at that time because we had very little limited resources you know in those first decades after independence. So this is a key moment because it also shows how focused Nehru was actually on architecture, architectural style and urbanism. Yeah that aesthetics of... Yeah not just that but you see he even had a sense of the urban. He breaks down the western wall or the southern wall of Purani Dilli which was still there at independence to make the fleet street, not fleet street the business district where the stock exchange comes up the banks come up, delight cinema comes up. So that wall was broken down. Then he built fleet street which is where all the newspaper offices were, ITO, Indian Express, Patriot, Times of India you know they were all based on that one street and in that ITO area he also set up all the new buildings for government which were the University Grants Commission, Income Tax Office, you know all the buildings which were needed for the new government to function were set up in ITO. Now see that's the difference between putting all that kind of building in Central Vista. So Ram before we move out I think one of the reasons why we are at your place and we could have easily got you at the Central Vista and which we are viewers must know is that this house is a treasure trope. So can you just dig into some of the these trunks that you see here yeah they're all filled with my father's and mother's archives. And let us also inform that your mother was the first Miss India. Yeah that's my mother the photograph that my father took in Calcutta and you see this is the kind of I mean this is a very shoddy archive but this is this was an issue of design magazine on the Delhi Zoo which was designed by my father but here you've got you know many of his buildings these are all his photographs of the housing some of the plans that's Rabindra Bhavan which was the key. So you see this this kind of material there's a lot of Delhi's history here such as Curzon Road Hostels. Just continue our discussion. Yeah at your house. I think this is something very important that our viewers must know in fact the country must know that the whole process of redevelopment has something to do with the political ideological mooring of the government and you know and that was very clear as you have pointed out from the Latvians to the Nehruvin era and now to what is called the Modi era. So I mean what do you deduce out of it I mean. No I think you see these buildings we've been talking about Shasti Bhavan or Vigyan Bhavan etc which were built post 50s they may not be great buildings architecturally but you know these are buildings that we have grown up with so we have a cultural memory and you know it becomes part of your city yeah it's a cityscape and you know many cities you don't have buildings which are necessarily great buildings but they become lived in people get used to them you have grown up your whole life either going to the buildings or having pan outside or you know they are there you're they're familiar also Shasti Bhavan or Udyog Bhavan has those murals by Satish Gujral you know which are which are very important art art historically for that period because that was when public art was being done now you see to destroy cultural resources like the National Museum and the Indira Gandhi National Center and replace them it's a huge space to replace them with an office building is a complete disaster because you're taking away you know an important cultural resource which is for the people and Indira Gandhi Center you've got those open lawns where they have these cultural festivals exhibitions all the time you're going to remove that from the center of Delhi and put up these buildings which are identical blocks which is a very fascist idea actually now just hold on hold on yeah so what you're trying to say is from the renaissance to the modernist Nehruv in India which we you said was quite democratic yeah to a fascist outlook yeah I mean that's for the first time hearing it and what does that mean actually well you know the the whole notion of fascism if you look at the history in Italy particularly Germany when they gained control they went back to a classicism in architecture which is very conservative and there was this idiom that developed which was you know like long severe pillars you know grand buildings which were imposing buildings now what from the plans that we see of central vista you're going to get these identical rectangular blocks which is going to be very you know the grandeur of no and also they all going to be identical so you'll get like one after the other these bureaucratic you know office buildings which are going to replace the you know odd mixed architecture that developed after independence now that has a certain character of its own and it and it reflects actually a democratic spirit by having these different buildings which are in different styles which are open to the public the national museum now the other thing is when you're when you're tearing apart the national museum where are you going to put all the art which is inside it for the time that the building is going to be torn down and you know a museum moved somewhere else and this is highly valuable art which even to take out of a cupboard to show somebody is difficult to do and you know these issues I think of cultural memory and of a lived city which has a certain access to the public especially for cultural events and you know library cultural resources you're eliminating that and making this a babu babu dumb city which is going to be you know cut away from any public access and the other thing which I can't understand I mean there was a report in times of India that they were going to build nuclear bunkers you know and yeah now obviously that's part of the program but the funny thing is you put the president the vice president the prime minister and all the babus in this one location in Delhi so you just need one bomb so even in security terms it makes no sense you know so Ram I mean I mean you pointed to something very fascinating to us of the whole the grand idea of exhibiting once well or I mean power can you draw a parallel between Albert Speer what he was trying to do for Hitler and what what Bimal Patel is trying to do for our our our indigenous well I think it's a very obvious comparison because you see Hitler don't forget Hitler was a failed artist himself yeah you know water colorist and oil painter but I don't think our prime minister is a failed artist well no but you know failed artist is a very dangerous person because they're frustrated they're an artist well no maybe he has many other skills yeah no I think the equivalence with what happened with Hitler and Albert Speer which was with you know who became his kind of favored architect in Berlin is very apt in this context because you know again Hitler wanted to project this whole notion of Aryan purity and Aryan power through this through this very grandiose building project which was harking back to ancient Rome you know the architecture is a theater set to depict power and Albert Speer worked on the stadium where the Nuremberg where the you know great sports events happened the great Nazi rallies happened and there's this amazing story that he designed it to be these rallies to happen at night because would hide the portliness of the Nazis with the night lighting oh that's interesting yeah so you know this whole notion of projecting power through a grandiosity and you know sort of uniformity of building as a you know these blocks going down where you is actually a fascist idea because you know a democratic architecture has its own nuances some of it is bad some of it is good but it it is democratic and it reflects very very yeah it reflects that spirit of openness of you know a little bit of jugar you know happenstance now to do these very linear buildings is is actually a example of fascist control through architecture of urban space but tell me Ramam the last thing that I want to know I mean a all uniform I mean all sorts of uniformity it leads to towards fascism and B if you would I mean this one single point that point because Indian fascism ought to be different from the Italian fascism or the European fascism and here it has to be quite ingrained to the whole bunch of Hindutva ideologies you know so this architecture also has to come closer to that I mean do you have anything to say on that no you see this idea of Hindutva ideology you can see that more in the new temples that are being built like the Akshadam etc you know we have a great tradition of temple building including contemporary which I have seen Bimal Patil's presentations yeah where he speaks about the triangle you know coming up instead of the circle the circular parliament yeah it'll be triangular and he speaks about the the three gods I mean the Brahma Vishnu yeah so I mean don't you think I mean well you know you once you get into that the funny joke is you see the triangle apparently according to Vastu traditions is not a good shape and Jawahar Bhavan which was built by the congress is a triangular building and the congress never moved into it because of Vastu issues so if you're building a parliament which is triangular you know this Vastu issue is there but you see this this whole idea of Hindutva building of Modi is a sort of misnomer because partly what Modi is trying to do you know by tearing down the Hall of Nations for instance of Rajeevan which was a great modernist structure in our history and we couldn't save it even though we tried for years to try and save it as a you know great cultural resource and it didn't happen you see Modi's when you read the language that they use which is to build something iconic and world-class now his idea is to project you know some sort of you know fancy modernist glass covered you know steel yeah yeah yeah now I think that that actually is a very regressive lower middle class attitude because it's you're thinking that something like that is a world-class building whereas you're not thinking in terms of architectural you see when Nehru brought in so how do you link it to the whole concept of fascism that you wanted out well enough in many ways you see fascist ideology is actually very simple it is a question of controlling population through symbols which are either political or cultural or architectural which are actually quite simplistic so this whole notion that you build something which is grand and on a big scale and identical that this projects it's actually very simple notion and that that is a you know that is the unfortunate aspect of fascist ideology thank you Ram I mean thank you so much once again and I think this is a new facet that has come to light I mean we spoke about the different facets right from renaissance to the democratic construction of the central Vista and now to why the whole idea of redevelopment of the central Vista is linked to the idea of fascism thank you so much oh you're welcome