 Minister Gerberg and the Irish Farmers Association, I'll start the consultation process off, might as well put the best foot forward. Thank you very much there for your address and speaking to us on your plans for the future. Just from an agriculture perspective and a notice you referred in your speech to the unique profile of our emissions profile, and obviously agriculture is a significant part of that, we would feel it would be very important and we'll be putting this forward in the process that that is recognised and that on the other hand you have a government policy of the food harvest 2020 targets to try and get production and exports up 50% by 2020 and God knows we need all that and the economy needs it, that the characteristics and problems around agriculture are taken into account in national legislation and in the discussions at EU level in terms of the step up. I don't have to tell you the figures are there to show that agriculture probably about 4% is what's possible in terms of reductions with the current technologies, efficiencies not the rest that are available. We're prepared to move in that space. I think it has to be based on science and research not on ideology or any of those sort of things and we have to be very conscious of the issue of carbon leakage. That is going to be a huge issue for agriculture in this country if we make the wrong moves in this area. And just briefly, I think in the areas of efficiency, of emissions efficient agriculture, of measuring it properly, you mentioned the Lulu CF process and the accounting methodology, sorry, agriculture has been responsible for about 50% of the forestry since 1990 in the private sector, the expansion in that area. We have 90% of a permanent pasture base, which is a known carbon sink. We want that to be brought into the methodology and the accounting and recognized in the process. And I think with the right policies, there's a lot more could be done in the whole renewable area by agriculture but I don't think the policy area is right here and I think we could help there. But what I'm saying is that to avoid the issues of carbon leakage and not to damage agriculture because you'll damage the economy by doing that and if there's a sensible or practical way forward and I'd be interested in the minister's views. Thank you Chairman. Thanks Chair. Take another question. No other questions? Don't believe it. Hands up with the back of the room. Minister, good afternoon. I'm delighted to see your embracing of the climate change challenge as someone who grappled in government with the issue towards the end of the last government. I don't underestimate the enormity of the challenge. I'm delighted that you are saying that the issues are so important that they can't be rushed as long as that leads to decisive and strong action at a domestic level. So I have one question regarding the legislation. I wonder do you have any intention of setting sectoral targets within the Irish context? I believe it was Sir Nicholas Stern who suggested that early action is less costly than action that is delayed and it certainly would be my opinion that early action and decisive targets within each sector would make it easier for Ireland to embrace the climate change challenge. So I wonder do you have any thoughts on this issue? Well in relation to Jair from the IFA, every sector has to play its role in order to meet our targets and I acknowledged in my contribution that agriculture and transport have particular problems, particularly agriculture. And you have issues where you have conflict in the EU and indeed around the world between the requirement to provide food at a time when we are challenged by a global food scarcity and at the same time do so in a way that mitigates and reduces our greenhouse gas profile. And I'm certainly very pleased in recent times to have a lot of visits from food companies who are getting a tremendous response to sustainable development products and I think that that is a big breakthrough from the point of view of the agricultural and food industry because farmers will respond through their pocket towards providing and ensuring that those products are sustainable or otherwise they lose market share. And I think there's nothing that concentrates the mind as much as that when it comes to the agricultural community or indeed any other community. The Lulu CF process is critical to that in terms of how the accounting measures are put in place in order to ensure that pasture is taken into account and the manner in which product is actually produced and that will be an interesting debate and obviously with Ireland's profile on agriculture and food we will want to have certain understandings on the Lulu CF agreement that will take account of our profile on agriculture and take account of the fact that we have a very high dependence on our economy but at the same time I would say that it's in the interest of the agricultural and food industry to ensure that we have on the basis of nutrition to animals on practical measures that we can take there towards developing sustainable products that we develop market opportunities based on the fact that Ireland is well placed with the traceability system that we have for food with the manner in which we actually produce our product to make a big contribution towards reducing greenhouse gas emissions in this country and that will at the same time not damage its economic prosperity for the country. In relation to Keiron, when you were around Keiron when we had the farce at the end of the last dull term when actually things broke up in this array, when people tried to put targets in law for each sector I'm not proposing to do that but I am actually looking at how we can work together in a less divisive way in order to ensure that each particular sector will take the necessary policy positions in conjunction with the government as part of this consultation I would welcome suggestions from all sectors and stakeholders to know how we can achieve that particularly in agriculture and transport and in energy but I think I'm contemplating success in a different way. Fine, thank you Minister. More questions over here please. Hello, Kira Gaynor from Oxfam Ireland. Firstly, I'd like to thank the Minister for his address and Oxfam very much welcomes the publication of the roadmap on climate change policy and legislation. A couple of points I would like to make. The first in relation to the comment there made around responding to global food insecurity I suppose coming from Oxfam's perspective we would see that for developing countries such as Malawi where 85% of the population are rural, they're farming, they're smallholder farmers they're relying on agriculture, on rain fed agriculture to basically feed themselves and I suppose the biggest threat to their food security is actually climate change so by really developed countries such as Ireland tackling the issue of climate change reducing our emissions that's how we can make the biggest contribution to securing their food security. On the issue of climate finance, very happy to hear the Minister say how he recognises the importance of providing climate finance to developing countries so I suppose my question would be does Ireland intend developing a roadmap on how we will scale up to meeting our climate finance commitments. The international community at Durban stated we would need to scale up collectively to providing 100 billion per annum to developing countries for climate finance that's both for mitigation activities and adaptation activities and then related to I suppose connected to climate finance is Ireland or our Ireland looking at innovative mechanisms of generating climate finance as we all know we're in difficult economic circumstances here and I suppose we really need to look to new mechanisms of raising finance and one that Oxfam and a number of other organisations would be proposing is looking at how we might generate income from the shipping industry be it through a levy or including the shipping sector and the emission trading scheme so I'll stop there, thank you. Might even get some revenue from auctioning of ETS permits. Anyone else? John? John Mullins, Chief Executive of Borgos. Minister, well done for throwing this letter into the match and we look forward to the consultation over the next number of months. I think we should certainly understand that there's a lot going on particularly in the energy sector of the last while in terms of what John McSweeney and ESB are doing in terms of electrical vehicles what has been done in terms of compressed natural gas and what has been done right across the board in terms of smart metering, demand side management but clearly there are issues that we have not addressed in the heat in particular the transport and agricultural sector. Now there's a real opportunity, I think two opportunities in the agricultural sector clearly issues like technologies like anaerobic digestion were great plans but there's a critical issue where the planning legislation is not working in concert with critical climate change policies and that is happening right across the board whether it's on the demand side or whether it's on the supply side. We've had arbitrary action by a committee of a regulator over the last number of weeks on curtailment of renewables which is at putting at risk nearly, I would say, a billion euros worth of renewable investments over the next three to four years creating jobs in the country. We should look at this as an opportunity, I think, Minister as well as clearly as a threat because there have been quite a number of jobs created in the economy as a result of a drive to low carbon and we have set up fantastic research centres in Ireland supported by the IDA and by Enterprise Ireland by other state agencies, the IARC, the MERC to name a few but I would like to maybe understand from you, Minister how other elements of enabling legislation will work in concert with the outcome of this consultation period because there are impediments and I know you've spoken on a number of these in the past but it is important we get holistic clarity to make sure that we meet these targets in the future. Thank you, Chairman. Well, Kira, I accept that very much that the work on agriculture and the policies on agriculture to deal with issues that are very important for developing countries are climate change. That's why I was one of the few people around the table on the European Union side and the environment side when we were devising our plans for our Durban that we signalled our strong desire to have a work programme on agriculture as part of the outcome and as you know agriculture and maritime issues and aviation for some reason got tangled up together bundled together for the purpose of those discussions and we had to detangle them and there are people sitting not too far from you had to engage in that process during the course of the negotiations and we succeeded in decoupling agriculture from the other issues that were finding it difficult to get agreement and getting agreement for the first time in 20 years to help the countries that you're speaking about like Malawi which I'm the delegation and other countries refer to ensure that we have a roadmap for to borrow a well-worn phrase now towards a work programme on agriculture that will be developed arising from Durban. In relation to climate finance this again was talked about and aspirational for a long time but Durban agreed that 2012 was when we were going to have for the first time the operational side of the climate finance agenda had been implemented and there will be a report to have to be presented at the end of this year in Doha to see what progress or other ways that we made so the spotlight is on that issue in relation to fast start finance where Ireland's contribution was agreed at 100 million when I became Minister 66 million of that had been allocated and there wasn't too much hope around the place in order to see where we're going to get any more money but I found 10 million in savings in the department and you have options when you have savings where you're going to allocate it and I allocated 10 million to the fast start finance so I hope that that will generate my commitment to the fast start finance and to the essential requirement for many of the countries that you mentioned to get projects up and running as quickly as possible 33 million out of that particular fund is allocated specifically for adaptation and mitigation proposals but other monies are allocated towards the overseas development aid program which is very successful and which I got a full briefing on while I was in Dortmund as well excellent work being done they are for the benefit of the people in those countries and some of the countries you mentioned Maritime sector levy has tied up the controversies that you will have about how you're going to fund anything so I wouldn't like to prejudge where you get the outcome for it to provide other sources of monies for the fund but needless to say we'd like to see more money from whatever source anaerobic digestion and indigestion has been a problem for a long time and refit charges and all of these issues have only recently been resolved and in fact they think they are only resolved last week in relation to minister rabbit's proposals and they were much more attractive than the republic we are conscious of the contribution that can make that particular policy but planning policy generally I inherited the situation where 275 files in the department were for foreshore license applications which would have made a major contribution towards renewable energy projects I'm sure if they were fast tracked but past the parcel gone on for a long time between various departments they ultimately ended up with the department of environment from agriculture and I think marine and I think transport got to look in on them for a while as well so these are some of these foreshore license applications are going back for years so what I'm intending to do as part of the planning policy review is to integrate the planning and foreshore license process up to now you would have a planning you get your planning applications started out after a couple of years of trying and then you have to go apply for a foreshore license and depending on how busy a section in the department is or a priority that a minister gives to it will determine whether you're going to have a foreshore license in six months or indeed two years or whatever so in the meantime the bank manager is hardly likely to wait around particularly in this present climate I'm sure that they have other sources and other demands on that particular money so I expect that during the course of this year we will see more of an integration of the various factors that help to make up the planning process in relation to foreshore that will hopefully make a big contribution towards speeding up some of the projects that are in gestation or waiting to be initiated particularly in the renewable energy sector I might just build on your point John if you read what the OECD is doing what's happening in relation to the Rio 20 preparation at EU level in most member states they're all looking at that word opportunity in the context of the green economy I think that's part of also what the minister was talking about in terms of public consultation is the opportunities that will arise from the green economy it's a very much centre part of the sustainable development negotiations within UNDP so more questions Avril? Thank you on the EUETS which was raised there's just quite a few interesting aspects of that sort of in the news of late I'd like to know what the Irish government's position read for that Minister Phil Hogan's position on the whole aviation ETS debate that's in our airways what line we're taking on the council of ministers on that and I'd also like to know what the Irish position will be on the mooting of setting aside allowances from auctions to tighten the cap generally in relation to the well the carbon price and the whole effectiveness of the emissions trading system which is predicated on a reasonable carbon price as a main market tool there at the moment what line Ireland is taking on that I mean on the whole issue of setting aside some of the allowances from auctions or from the cap generally just to tighten up the availability of carbon credits if you like carbon allowances it's all part of the sort of concerns about the cap trajectory to 2050 and the way things are a bit bumpy at the moment let's say that on the road and the third point I'd like to ask specifically on where the department is in relation to our national implementation measures in relation to the auctions for phase three the auctioning of allowances I think only seven countries had their plans in we used to call them national allocation plans had their plans in at the end of last year when it was the deadline Ireland is not among them I suspect it's because you've sort of pressed the pause button there and said let's look at this but in where are we in terms of the deadline and what are our plans in relation to the national implementation measures in this area please look after the agricultural issue too I just want to reiterate I've been concerned for some time even though it's not an area I have been involved in in the past unlike the ETS but to me it seems patently obvious with the amount of permanent pasture with the Lulu CF whole issue even conservation tillage please throw into the mixture because an awful lot can be done in that area there that we should be able to match our ruminant economy let's put it that way with the Green Ireland in the right sense of that is the outcome of the referendum to all of you in government I want the next round if you want I'll just ask one or two short ones then okay look on adaptation in Ireland along with other European countries adaptation measures have a very very low priority my immediate concern minister is that for the last few years in Ireland we've been experiencing deluge rainfalls just to give you a simple example now there's hardly a building or a road that has been designed and constructed to accommodate these types of rainfalls we could have been doing very small simple things starting four or five or six years ago to begin the adaptation process seriously but the department is not treating this whole area seriously at all nothing is happening on adaptation sorry I have a question with regard to the reliability of our mitigation related databases in the absence of an independent competent and thorough inspection system there are serious differences between calculated performance and real or actual performance to the extent that this problem has been known about by the relevant organizations for quite some time I'm talking about many years where our databases can actually be said to be corrupt so could you please look into that problem, thank you I think you have five or six questions there minister well everyone certainly in relation to agriculture you can take a look at my contribution they are conscious of the fact that there is a balance that has to be struck between the issues of global food security as Oxfam said but also the title targets that are required will be a challenge but necessary I think across the sectors we have a very ambitious trajectory to meet and the environment council next week in Denmark will be setting out its stall in relation to how we are going to hit 2050 and it's all more ambitious and I've indicated there that 2020 is probably going to be a little more ambitious from all member states but the setting of targets and options is part of hopefully that will engage in this consultation process from a national perspective the case of the ETS is fundamentally tied in to a very complex landscape within the roadmap to 2050 and I will be following up on dosage I don't want to say today what our position will be in terms of how we are going to do those things because I have to present at the council of ministers meeting next week where there is a lot of options to engage proactively in some of the very complex and sensitive issues on that in relation to aviation and maritime aviation matters I think the last general assistant secretary who is across another department in transport or time of man he might be there and he might be able to give an answer on that just in broad terms there has been much debate and comment in relation to the aviation inclusion in the ETS from the start of the year and I think there is a unified position across all 27 member states Ireland included and I suppose there are two crucial pieces to it one it's the inclusion of aviation in the ETS applies to European and non-European airlines it's across the board and number two there is a clear willingness and acknowledgement that I suppose a preferable outcome in the longer term would be through an ICAO process and there is a clear acknowledgement in the EU ETS extension to aviation that if corresponding measures happen to be introduced then Europe will certainly be acknowledging those so those are the positions and as I said they are unified positions across the 27 member states and so there remain I don't know what Tom wants to add anything further to that I will bring the microphone over just to say it's not only unified across the 27 member states but it's unified across the sector because the Europe's position climate change has been decided at head-to-state level and has been consistent at head-to-state level and there might be divergence of emphasis in transporter and agriculture councils or environment councils the him-sheet that everybody thinks to is the him-sheet set by the head-to-state and it is consistently one of, as John has said of Europe taking a leadership role it now becomes very difficult in aviation because of the pressures that we're going to be under certainly across the European Union if any desire to move away from the strong position with Tim. A certain national airline is charging its passengers five euros per flight by way of compliance cost actually if you do the math it's probably three times the actual compliance cost so it's a nice little profit-maker for an airline Minister would you like to? Sorry just in relation to the one final point I think that Avel Reyes was in relation to the NIMS EPA is the competent authority in relation to that and the NIMS plan I think has been submitted to the commission since the, we weren't there at the end of the year but we are there since then. I know the other questions on adaptation and mitigation are measured, I'd be surprised if the data is corrupt in the manner in which it's calculated so you know if you have evidence the data I certainly want to investigate wouldn't I but I would be anxious to hear from you on that because that's a very serious charge second of all adaptation having a low priority well it goes back and I would agree with Kieran Coffin others over the years that we are developing a sustainable development framework in the context of Rio plus 20 and part of the policies that have been pursued in the past weren't appropriate towards dealing with a lot of the issues that now require adaptation so I think you'll see a comprehensive response at the end of April from government about how we see the development of the sectors including policies towards not only mitigation but adaptation towards the climate change agenda and flooding is with us but we've had a good winter this winter I'm lucky enough maybe I was lucky but it won't always be the case and in terms of Irish response and we have a difficulty in dealing with a lot of adaptation measures because we haven't the money to deal with them at the moment from some of the mistakes that were made in the past but as resources apply we will that's all I can tell you on today I look forward to hearing from you about the corrupt chart Minister Dick Lutton from the Carbon Disclosure Project you've had several questions which have touched on the issue of the agriculture sector I'd like you to look at that question again but this time from the other end of the microscope in your remarks you said the non ETS sector has got to achieve a 20% reduction in emissions by 2020 the special case of the agriculture sector and the difficulties in the transport sector imply that non ETS industry is going to have to carry the burden of a reduction considerably above 20% can you please give any guidance for your department's quantification of that scale of the burden for industry needs to know what it's looking at before it can consult and contribute to your consultation process well I think the policy analysis that we're carrying out with the NESC secretaries is going to inform us in relation to what policy initiatives have been mistaken and we'll know that by June and there are some unpalatable ones I'm sure that will be looked at in context of that debate but I'm not going to prescribe today any policy options in advance of NESC and the consultation process giving us some indication of where we're going to meet our targets based on the options that are going to be presented I think it's important reviews are contributed to part of the consultation exercise in turn feed into the NESC analysis if I gave you the outcome you would know by then consult Duncan there at the back thank you minister and it's great to say that legislation on climate change is now a priority and that you know that you're putting forward now structures that are going to deal with it but we all know it's going to be very difficult to achieve the targets that you're setting for us as a people but in doing so it's going to need mechanisms instruments that will drive the change otherwise we're not going to achieve it what sort of mechanism do you think you will introduce environmental taxes for example on one side mechanisms that will because there's very little money around today so what are the ways that you're going to drive this change that will really make it happen because without those I can't see any change really happening somebody beside you there at the back yeah this gentleman here just in front of you thank you James Nix from Corporate Leaders in Climate Change Minister thank you for publishing the consultation today and for giving us a very good address I've read the roadmap and just one overall comment one thing I noticed is that generally publication of submissions do you take place about seven to eight weeks after receipt of them so for example at the end of consultation in April it's the end of June before they're published and again with the NESC interim report it's about seven or eight weeks afterwards and the same again with the final report so there's about a two month lag between receipt and publication I'm just wondering is there a scope to enhance the policy making process by shortening that window between receipt of material and submissions and between their publication thanks just behind you sorry Ray Bates UCD thanks very much minister for your very interesting talk I have a question regarding what your views would be on how the EU is going to respond to the different attitude taken in North America by our North American friends they're receiving the same scientific message from the IPCC and in fact most of the world's leading climate scientists are American and nevertheless the response to the message they're getting from the climate scientists is very different so I would like to know what your views would be on how the EU is going to cope with this problem thanks thanks very much minister for your reflections on the challenge of getting to grips with climate change and Green looks forward very much to working towards a framework that will get us there I'd like to ask a question perhaps a bit more normative than some of the ones we've had this morning and it's related to the item you mentioned that equity is crucial to the climate policy challenge you mentioned it twice it's the first principle of the climate convention and I think one the way I'd like to couch it is this if things were equal at the moment if current emissions were divided equally across the globe we'd all have access to about six tons each per year roughly where China is at the moment and as you know very well in Ireland we're at least double that if we are to get to halving global emissions by 2050 then it has to be well below three tons per person thanks for your policy document that initiated this policy initiative you've taken November but I can find no reference in there to the equity aspect in the mathematical terms I've just outlined is that because it's just not there or is that because in some way a decision was taken that those sort of arguments don't help in Ireland and I'd really like to hear your reflection on that question because I'm sort of putting it to another aspect you mentioned this whole vital question in my view of who we are and what our aspirations are I would like to think our aspirations were that we are a moral people that we do believe in equity and that that should therefore trigger our approach to this problem thank you final question this lady here hi my name is Annick Bart I'm from World Design and Kimmich DSC I just an add on to the possibility of an adaptation resource what is Ireland's position and is there any hope of bringing a consensus in on the Tobin tax that some of the countries have agreed on Minister my way of wrap up well I think Duncan you'll agree with me that the best form of incentive is financial we'd love to feel that we're all moralistic about these things and including I'm sure you dip in and out like I do about morals but when it comes to money about energy efficiency and about all of the various standards that we require in the business that you're in would actually once people see that they can actually save money by implementing a particular course of action and at the same time meet a very essential policy objective they respond so sustainable energy Ireland and all of the various the local authorities that drive this effort at the moment and probably should expand it more rapidly retrofitting schemes and all of this through the energy utility companies which they're looking at at the moment with that's the way forward in order to ensure that we meet that we reduce our greenhouse gas emissions and that we meet our targets in that area that principle has to be replicated in so many different ways and I think that that's part of what I would challenge the consultation process is where are the initiatives that can be taken and the policy propositions forward to us that will actually make it a difficult situation for a lot of people more palatable but also save the money and achieve our overall objectives of reducing our greenhouse gas emissions so we all want to head for a low carbon competitive economy and I start coming across to Pat's point to present the environment policy it's not something that people should be afraid of that it should be part of our mainstream life mainstream economic activity and that we take serious account of the environment implications of what we're doing and across all of the various policy areas in each department that's what I'm trying to extract from ministers and I would make success but I'm getting there hopefully that we're able to implement policy instruments across departments that will achieve those type of objectives and so they are the mechanisms to drive change in my view self interest save money for schools who have to deal with a lot of demands and monies at the moment they're fundraising with their parents and all this for rainwater harvesting, water conservation all of the issues that hopefully that I will be seeing showing to you that center stage in our new water policy which will be out in the next six or seven weeks the two month consultation time James I think it's a reasonable length of time for people to respond we'll have a look at that we'll have a look at that let me look at that the political will raise what's important in terms of this agenda and Europe has demonstrated great leadership in relation to dealing with this agenda I wish everyone else could like the North Americans even though they have the same science but the political will in the United States hasn't always been the same I know there was a lot of commitments given by the present president of the United States about these matters which he hasn't lived up to maybe to the extent that he should but maybe the electorate in the forthcoming elections will be able to show that they have a bigger interest in it but you know you'd have to say that they haven't demonstrated that there's too many, there's a huge amount of vested interests in that country of course that are military against this agenda and that's going to be it but the European Union leaders that heads the state at the G20 meetings and others they regularly press home the importance of dealing with this particular issue we don't but I think at the same time it comes back to the other way of presenting it the European Union if it develops a low-carbon competitive economy will certainly demonstrate that there's advantages to the United States in following the same lead I think China, notwithstanding the fact that they regularly don't get engaged in all of this process on a political level they're very much engaged in their own country and then someday we'll all wake up and we'll see we'll be flooded with all kinds of products that are so sustainable and so very compatible with what our agenda is that they'll overrun a lot of the markets overnight so it's the political will to deal with that I think is the most important and Pat we have EU legally binding targets and I don't want to get into a prescriptive and divisive debate about a target based debate I want to get into a policy debate about how we can across the board deal with all of these issues in a less divisive way that's the lesson I learned from the last encounter we had with trying to put as was under the definition of equity into the system in terms of targets being prescribed in law we will have obviously a challenge for to meet our targets by 2050 if we're going to have them but I'm determined to work with my colleagues in government and with stakeholders to ensure that that happens the adaptation measures are the adaptation and the necessary funds that have been provided across the sector I haven't considered the toll and tax implications certainly massively yes which I certainly will consider okay minister thank you very much