 My my dad when he found out that I was gonna interview you he said you know You should do is wear some dirty clothes because you're interviewing the guy from dirty jobs And I thought No, that's why he's no longer the chief creative director of the art of charm That was the last bit too on the nose. Yes a little bit much. He's a Ford guy By the way, he wanted to make sure that you're still driving that truck. They gave you it's 11 years old now Is it really? Yeah. Oh, okay. I got it as part great downstairs. I look in I haven't bought a car I've never in my life bought A new car ever really and I haven't purchased the piece of clothing Probably in all at least 15 years maybe more Because you keep giving or getting things for free or because no I steal you just steal them From no, I would never do that, but there's sort of this unspoken thing on a Like on a commercial shoot, you know, they bring in wardrobe and nobody knows what you're gonna wear but I always wear the same crap and You know, I put it on and they bring alternates and everything else and at the end of it I just take them and they don't care. They don't care. Yeah, they're so happy. We had a good day Yeah, Ted keeps the clothes. So that's why I'm almost always dressed in an outfit That millions of people have seen me Weird that's why you're so recognizable. It's part of it. I'm the same thing. I went without the hat today though Which is a bold departure. I think for me Well, we were gonna bring you ahead and we were like, oh, we forgot an art of charm hat And then we thought he's gonna he's got a hundred and fifty hats. I don't have any to say charm though That's right. Tell me about your podcast. What is this? What is the art of charm that you're looking to? Sure. So essentially what we do on the show is we we ask Burling people such as yourself Interesting questions and try to make their wisdom available to everyone. So we've had people like Larry King talk about interesting conversations We had General McChrystal come on and talk about making tough decisions because he's made a lot of those. Yeah General Hayden came on talked about some of the ethics involved in Surveillance and things like that and we've had body language experts and hostage negotiators come on and talk about negotiation and things like that So we thought that something that people can apply rather than just be quote-unquote inspired because inspiration is kind of cheap It's more like you can do it, but can you do it? So you've redefined charm to include elements of challenge inspiration obviously But rooted in a broad-based level of overarching practical. Exactly. That's I thought that's what I said five seconds ago But yeah, I just I don't feel like you used any of those words. No, I didn't I didn't really I'm going to next time though Okay, so when we edit that part out and then I say it again on camera. It's gonna sound really good It'll sound good, but it won't be charming. See what we just did was charming What you just described would be polished and in many ways I believe the enemies of charm are delivering this in much the same way I would argue that the enemies of authenticity are production. Yes We put barriers in front of that which we declare to be our objective We do it all the time we deal with everything in my humble view. Yeah, I agree with that We actually we when the show first started It was about taking off the social mask the representative that everyone meets when you first put yourself out there and people We're saying things let when I was in law school was like yo in order to get a job What you need to do is this this this this and this yeah in the interview And I thought wait isn't that not going to work when I'm spending 25 hours a day with every single person in this office Right, they're gonna figure out pretty quick that me coming in dressed in a certain way speaking a certain way with perfect Eye contact and a firm handshake only lasted 40 minutes on a good day. It just proves you read the manual Yeah, yeah, which is maybe what they want when you're becoming an attorney. Yeah Protocol, but not good for spending time in airport louges with other people who are equally miserable No, but there's there and lies into economy, right? You know, we this idea that if you're in compliance Then you're in good graces. It's sort of like with With OSHA, you know with with safety the idea that if you're in compliance, you're out of danger Right, it's fundamentally Species yeah, that's not true that organization must have Multiple issues with what you've done over the past few years. I would imagine we Inspired what I called an army of angry acronyms Left in the wake of dirty jobs I mean OSHA certainly fired off more than a few strongly worded memos the EPA was constantly at high alert angry angry Pita was probably the biggest source of congenital Predictable rage the Humane Society was right there even the FBI. I heard from the FBI on a couple occasions What did they want? It was a crime scene cleanup thing and they heard some things that see the thing is today as you know the The interwebs they're they're populated almost entirely by correctors Right, the world is standing by now to tell you that you got it wrong sure and thanks to You know our devices we can immediately find proof That we're right and the other person is wrong of course they can find proof too because there's no end Right, there's just no end to the sources that can gain say the other source and so we've just become this extraordinarily pedantic People and I think we've confused listen to me. You didn't ask me a question, but I'm just talking now That's okay. That's I'm just here for you know what is this charming? We've confused we've confused noise and sound an argument with conversation communication We look at a lot. Well all of your Facebook posts and those letters and the videos that are done and they're At first it was like wow this like roguys really funny and then it was like wow his fans are Including us even more ridiculous at some points. I mean the letter you got from fleet week that was like It's just annoying. I can't see the water on this day It's like because there's a battleship in front of you full of veterans. Yeah, just came back from a war zone Sorry, yeah, you know just kind of risking our life for you. Yeah, that's all I know it must be very annoying very distracting Yeah, messing up you sorry your dog gets scared when they do flyovers and fighter jets from pilots that have been getting shot at It's just people you just love them. I mean look is it I mean it's enough to make you crazy But the truth is you have to keep reminding yourself if everybody saw it your way I mean really whether it's politics or social or whatever it is if everybody agreed on everything What's it like it out of bed? Sure. Yeah, I mean we'd be in North Korea So basically you'd have to get out of bed for other reasons if you had a bed, but it's cold up there. It is And they all talk different they do they talk That part that part is definitely true. Yeah Have you been in North Korea? I have I've been there three four times Why? First time I went because I thought this place is weird. I got to go check it out This is probably ten almost ten years ago The second time I went was because I talked about it on this show that we're doing right now and people said wait a minute You can go check that place out and I said yeah I can we can go on tours and you can see it for yourself So I brought a group of show fans and friends with me to North Korea talked about that on the show as well And that filled up another trip and then another trip because I think it's an interest. I mean I I'm not a fan of Kim of Kim. Yeah, and I probably should go one last time before we hear that's that little slip up But but when I go there I bring people to talk and see the culture and engage with the people because as you might imagine there's a lot of normal people there that live in a regime that they know at some level is not working out for them Yeah, and like every level at every level at every single level and they they ask for things when you go there They ask for things like hey that camera that you're using how does it work? And you're explaining to them things like iPads cameras phones They're looking at videos and they they can't believe it and they've heard of Facebook, but they've never seen it and Every time we go there the the guides will say do you have any games on this because they Maybe never played one before and so they'll sit there and play all day, you know, it's it I used to read all the time like back in the 20s and 30s accounts of Civilizations or or tribes being discovered, you know who had never seen anything, you know a post industrial revolution And obviously it's harder and harder to find that today, but I remember Like 15 years ago. I was hiking from Cusco to Machu Picchu. Yeah, my dad did that It's a great hike. We were headed up to Titicaca, but along the way we took this side hike and You know we hired some They're not sherpas over there, but we just hired some help. We got a ton of gear we were lazy we were just slummin it and These kids humped our crap for about four and a half days and they were just amazing I mean they would run they would sleep in like we'd start around seven they'd get up around ten and Pass us around 1030 or 11 and then make our lunch by the time we got there with all your stuff with all our gear in sandals running I can still hear them running behind me was like Compromiso Compromiso and they and they run by anyway We tipped them obviously, but I had this old Walkman this old Sony Walkman and Soundgarden had just oh, yeah, right Sure, so super unknown right first out and I've been listening to that and I I put these headphones on this kid And I said hey, what do you think of this because he played the flute, you know, right? So it's the first time you ever heard an electric guitar It's the first time you ever heard that big screeching tenor harmony It's the first time you heard a drum kit like that and you could just see his head exploding I mean it was just it it was he couldn't have looked at me with more wonder had I pulled my own head off And presented it to him while it was still talking so I said look keep it, you know, just keep yeah Enjoy the album enjoy the thing, but then when I left I was like oh crap. What have I done? You know like the looted there. Well, it's like the prime directive on Star Trek I know you messed with something and what like what happened with the batteries ran out Or like is there is there a giant monument now there somewhere that looks like a Walkman, you know 1989 first version one Sony Walkman with like the futuristic looking digital fun on the front, right, right? So like, you know the the ultimate arbiter of knowledge is Chris Cornell, right? We have to consult the the Oracle the records Anyway, that's that's like the the Boy Scout rule is what take only pictures leave only footprints and possibly a Walkman With a sound guard cassette take all you want eat all you take. Yes. I ten years ago or over ten years ago now I'm watching TV in my friend's basement where essentially I was living and studying for the bar exam and I'm miserable as can be studying for the New York bar exam and I see this guy sticking his hand deep inside some Some animal and I remember thinking this is really cool I wonder I mean, how do I get that job? And at this point you have your hand up a bull's ass So I should have probably taken a cue About my career choices from that thinking you know doing the whole compare contrast back then sure retrospect 2020 hindsight And it seems like Now that we've come full circle AOC artichoke is very big on pushing outside the comfort zone making sure that we are always pushing that bubble and You've got that same thing as well. You've got this. What's the word you use the parapetia? Aneurysis and parapetia, that's right. I only got the last part now Let's you know an aneurysis is a greek word for discovery a parapetia is a form of discovery Aristotle basically argued that all insight comes through a series of discoveries and great narratives are informed by an aneurysis that lead To a parapetia and that's a discovery that changes the direction of the narrative, right? So when Bruce Willis Realizes at the end of the sixth sense That he's dead That's a parapetia, right, right now along the way He has all these aneuryses, but when he when he makes that kind of realization That's when the narrative of the story changes. That's what his life changes That's just like when edifice realizes, you know He has an aneurysis edifice does an act to when he when he meets this hot older chick And they start to make love and fall in love and then they have babies, you know, then they're married All an aneuryses act five he realizes the hot older chick is his mom Parapetia Changes the direction of the narrative So mine would have been sitting in an office in Manhattan checking for commas and an 800 page document and going I wish I had my hand in the Bull's butt somewhere like Mike room Yeah, I mean look people would look at dirty jobs and and find whatever they were seeking, right? You know, yeah, you can look at that show you look at that segment and See a big cautionary tale, you know, and a lot of people did a lot of people watch that with their kids to say see could be worse could be that guy but equally Passionate among the viewers were the people who watched and said see there's dignity in that You know how important it is to put your hand up the Bull's ass It's kind of critical because that's where you insert the probe that stimulates the prostate that ultimately triggers the ejaculate Which allows you to artificially inseminate a hundred cows? you take artificial insemination out of modern agriculture and McDonald's isn't feeding billions and billions right, so it's not gonna happen So, you know that show was a hot mess. It was a scatological romp It was exploding toilets and misadventures and animal husbandry, but we were always able to find a Parapetetic moment Either from me. I mean that was really my job. You know, I wasn't a host. I was more of this Avatar a guest sure, you know, and so it was very very liberating not to have to tell the viewer The truth of a thing, you know not to be judged by one of the correctors. We were talking about but rather Try it as an apprentice. We're on the first day and do your best. Maybe you're right What do you think when people say things like oh, yeah, I watch your show with my kids so I can tell them what happens if He doesn't go to college I mean that at some point if I were in your shoes then I would I would be annoyed by by that You can't I mean you can't afford to be I mean the dirty jobs first and foremost was an entertainment proposition So when people stop me because they know me or they want to talk about the show I've never looked at them as as fans. I've looked at them as my boss You know, so when your boss stops you to talk about your work better freaking listen, you know Yeah, I like it, but you have to listen, you know, I used to tell the story in Newark I got off a plane. I was walking through the terminal and the first guy that stopped me He was on a ladder up in the ceiling, you know, and he came down from the ceiling and said hey, man I just tell you my wife and my kids and I we watch your show and it's just so great because I can I can show them Opportunities that they didn't know existed and I can use what you're doing as proof positive That that opportunity is not dead and then 15 feet later a guy at a Brooks Brothers suit stopped me wall street type You know, he said I know the type watch watch your show with the wife and kids every Tuesday It's so much fun. You're very funny and I can point to my kids and say see see what happens if you don't go to college and so look in the end that's the Not show this. Yeah, it seems like The boss analogy works great because in truth if you treat fans like they owe you something You won't have them for very long. Nobody likes a kiss ass, right? And you're and then you're in trouble Why are you always running towards the thing that makes you uncomfortable? I mean that's that's something you've mentioned in some of your posts and in some of the shows Why is that sort of a personal motto? Well, it's not really I mean to be honest in real life, you know That doesn't inform by every position but in TV it does because in TV I believe certainly in 2001 the Discovery Channel was Completely reliant on a nonfiction model that elevated the host and the expert to a level of absolute Primacy, right? So if you saw somebody on Discovery It was because they knew what they were doing they knew what they were talking about it could it be could be Jacques Cousteau It could be David Attenborough, you know, it didn't matter, but fundamentally they were an arbiter of accuracy In the wake of that my feeling was they had an opportunity to be an arbiter of Authenticity there's a different model. It doesn't require a host It requires a guest. It doesn't require an expert. It requires an apprentice so the idea of Saying look, I want to do a show that fundamentally challenges the underlying Perception you have of your own brand. That's a tough sell but They they gave it a try to their credit because dirty jobs is still fundamentally rude and curiosity So we're still satisfying curiosity, but I had assumed this different sort of mode, you know, this is the cipher of sorts and that changed everything It just means I didn't have to ever be right Did you come up with those kind of rules for the creative process or was that something where they were like look We need somebody who's gonna do it this way Well, it certainly wasn't that and as much as I'd like to tell you that all this is the result of a well-executed plan I kind of forest-gumped my way into it I knew I didn't want to be held to the same standards as a host and I'd been freelancing as a host for 15 years before that here in San Francisco evening magazine, you know And that's what I did for 10-12 years I would I would go out and I would host a show from a restaurant or a winery or someplace and You know hosts and reporters. They're they're With respect, you know, they're empty suits commodities essentially of talent Well, we're interchangeable. I mean, why do you imagine the news looks the way it looks in every market? Why does FM radio sound the way it sounds in every market, you know, what so once you Codify the system and then you start putting humans in it all they can really do to find certainty in their life is Is something derivative? They have to imitate something that they saw before that makes sense their brain sure so pretty soon all the DJs talk like this Yeah, yeah, right. I mean what what the hell is that? Why does that happen? Well as a host I was doing the same thing, you know, hi San Francisco micro here tonight on the evening magazine blah blah blah I listen to those old tapes. I'm like, Jesus. What were you doing? Yeah, a little painful. What are you doing? Why are you wearing makeup? Why do you look at a prompter and Read it in an attempt to convince someone you're not reading it You know, it's yeah, it doesn't make sense. Bear your stuff into this, right? So anyway, all of that sort of informed the first episodes of dirty jobs and Once people started to watch it it it became foresail Why the emphasis on authenticity man? This is something that we focus on at AOC all the time It's all about authenticity becoming more authentic trying to ditch the performance aspect of things Even the show that I do all the time the intro Nothing is it's got to be scripted because it just comes across as plastic and people want to get to know nowadays people want to get to Know you it's not 1940 radio where you're a disembodied talking voice or we're a TV host with the evening magazine It seems like you swam upstream in some ways trying to become authentic in a market that Wasn't necessarily thinking that they wanted that at the time. Yeah, I did But don't confuse it with like, you know bravery or foresight. I swam with the salmon I was gonna say the salmon of showbiz Well, well before dirty jobs, I was I was right in the middle of the herd, you know I was it took me 15 years of Sort of mastering my toolbox, you know and understanding what worked and what could get me paid You know, I was basically paid to impersonate a host For 15 years and I became Fassile at it, you know, I was never I was never properly acquisitive. I never wanted to be the kind of Tom Bergeron and you know, Tom hit it big as a host I never you know, I went as far as I wanted to go as a host that Clark hired me I worked for a lot of guys, but to me that the most interesting thing Doing the traditional route Was to approach hosting and TV like a tradesman would a project So short-term small bites don't get stuck with a hit God knows you don't want to hit then then you're gonna be You know, you're just sucked in forever, right? So Yeah, I felt really smart and clever for about 15 years working on jobs and projects that were so Doomed so so poorly conceived that no amount of luck or talent could possibly salvage them I would attach myself to those projects essentially like the Titanic looking for an iceberg, you know and And I knew they would fail, but I would do the best work I could and so I never took heed for it and in that way I was able to work and take a lot of time off and And feel all clever about it dirty jobs. Just a miscalculation, right? You accidentally made something that people really liked that went on for a long time. Yeah. Yeah I made a deal with the network that allowed me to Narrowing their big tentpole shows, you know Like Planet Earth and big big big brand friendly shows and go on these various expeditions and they said let's do something You know to introduce you to the viewer and I pitched What was at the time called somebody's got to do it which I did here in town And they said well, let's call it dirty jobs and see if anybody cares They had no idea anybody would watch and they were horrified when they did to tell you the truth why For the same reason the GOP was horrified when Donald Trump was standing in the middle of that stage For the same reason because there's a cognitive dissonance and Big brands hate that so discovery in 2004 This show went on the air in 2003. It raided through the roof. They took it off It was off-brand. It scared the heck out of them and I went back to going to Alaska and Egypt and doing these other shows, but then About eight months later this great. You can't make this up They hired they had Steve Irwin and they had the myth busters And they had a bunch of new talent a bunch of old talent and they wanted to get a sense They had like 18 new shows of development So they sent them all to Vegas and walked like 500 people in the room for a weekend and made them watch everything big focus group Somebody somebody at discovery took an old episode of dirty jobs off the shelf and threw it in this pile of Stuff really just as fodder, you know the results after the focus group were Were deeply disturbing to people who were in the business of predicting results Oh, right dirty jobs was by far the number one show and I was rated very very favorably as a host which in my world is Avatar guest So that's that's when they ordered the series. What were you thinking when they said look we want to do more dirty jobs? Were you elated or were you like crap? I don't want to have to be stuck It was very much a careful we wish for Moment because remember my contract, you know, it just had three one-hour Versions of jobs and then all the other stuff that we really made the deal for that's where the focus was You know dirty jobs happen because my mother called me here in San Francisco. She was in Baltimore and my granddad was 91 or 92 at the time. He was dying. This is a guy who could like build a house without a blueprint. You know, he was my Inspirations a kid and I wanted to follow in his footsteps. He only went to the seventh grade, but master electrician Plumbers named fitter fight Mechanic right so he's dying and she calls and says Michael it would be so nice if your grandfather Could turn on the TV before he before he goes and see something that looks like work To see you do something that looks like work. So that's why it started and It was very personal. I was I was doing jobs that I knew Mike that would make my grandfather laugh But of course, that's exactly why it works because when it aired People saw those jobs said, oh man, you should talk to my brother sister uncle cousin grandfather dad mom, right? And it just just became very very relatable overnight And so when they ordered more I was flattered That people would like it, but that show was Hard, right? I mean sure you can't cheat on that show on the the big advantage I had was I didn't have to be competent and I didn't have to be correct But I had to try Which means, you know you shoot from sun up to sundown and sometimes you're swinging a mallet And sometimes you're dangling from bridge and sometimes you're testing a shark suit You know, sometimes you're making big rocks out of little rocks. You got to be in it. Otherwise. Yeah You just look like it's like entertainment tonight where they're standing in front of the video playing behind them You've got to stand up on the wind power Thing in the wind with the guy going. Oh, yeah, don't step back any further And it's like you should have maybe said that yeah five steps ago. Yeah, you go in the hole Yeah, you don't talk about what's at the bottom of the opal mine shaft You go in the chef, you know, you have to you have to go to where the work is And so that was the great trade and the the beauty of dirty jobs You know, I had one job to try to try my best and then right under that was say things That would amuse your best friend If you guys were watching this together So most of what I said was an attempt to amuse myself and most of what I did was an attempt to keep up You're very anti bromide, which is one of the reasons why I think it's a as you would say is which is one of the reasons why I thought you were a really great fit for the show because cliches and these little bits of advice and things like that are that are meaningless in my opinion are things You like to pick apart and that we like to pick apart and sort of Shoot the platitude down dissect the frog and find out that it has no guts Mm-hmm, and I think one of the most common bromides that we hear especially my generation in my field of with the Entrepreneurship field or whatever you hear these things like follow your passion follow your gut follow your dreams don't ever quit I know that you don't agree with that as much as I also don't agree with that. It's my pet peeve essentially Well, look anytime Conventional wisdom anytime wisdom becomes conventional and then written on a piece of parchment and then framed Some cheap mahogany and then hung in some God-forsaken conference room That's that's where you've crossed over, you know now you have a platitude a bromide a trope and You know, it's a people are so desperate to have a playbook that they gravitate Toward one, but of course it doesn't exist and following your passion We did a special on dirty jobs called the dirty truth where essentially I walked through an old office building and hung all of my least favorite bromides on the wall and then and then essentially You know Toward them apart one at a time using dirty jobbers as as proof, you know to contradict the conventional wisdom Never follow your passion. Sorry always follow your passion was the Was the first one I remember there was a it was like a rainbow And a flower or like maybe some butterflies and a waterfall in the back. I don't know what the hell they're talking about Passionate waterfalls and butterflies. I don't know but this idea You know, whether it's in work or in romance, you know, the idea that your happiness is Contingent upon finding the job that will make you happy your dream job, for instance It's not so different than finding the girl that will make you happy You're soulmate right the one out of seven billion. Yeah. Yeah, she's out there and for you She's out there and if you're not really enjoying your life right now, you just you just have to find her And it'll be okay, right, you know, having a bad day at work. It's not you What you you need your dream job, you know, so so never ever give up on your passion That's what we tell people and look there there are times when it's excellent advice There are times when it's the worst advice in the world and that's why you know It becomes a sacred cow. That's fun to push against. I remember, you know, American Idol has to be One of the most amazing shows ever there's so much about it. I hate but one of the things about it that I loved was Early in the season, you know the early auditions where they go to a town and Thousands of people show up Thousands of people show up following their passion. They've always wanted to be a singer a pop star and they're gonna give it a shot and It's not alarming that they can't sing What's alarming is that they discover it so often for the very first time on national television They're 20 years old their whole life They've been told look if you want it bad enough, it's gonna work out if you're passionate about it It's gonna work out. You're my precious little boy You're gonna be great. Go for it. Go get them. I just think It's a massive disservice To tell people that the proximate cause of their vocational happiness is contingent upon their ability to never change course I Can't agree more. I mean, I think the fact that we are telling the young people this is especially Alarming because when they get older when we get older, I shouldn't exempt myself from any of this when we get older and we find out the hard way Depending on how I guess plastic you are with you the ability to adapt to the truth You can find yourself in a world or you can find yourself in a real world to hurt Even if you're a good hard worker and you can outwork people that are smarter than you which was my competitive advantage growing up essentially You still find yourself swimming with sharks when you're a lawyer and you go Oh my god, not only do I not want this but I worked so hard to get here and Maybe your passion shifts. There were a lot of people in my class who thought I want to be a lawyer for sure and two years later They're emailing me. Hey, are you hiring? Yeah, because this is terrible. So even when you get what you want You're not always going to want your passion. There's a terrible inertia The around passion and and really just around living, you know way leads on to way as frost said And I love that because it indicates a crooked road, you know, but this idea, you know real inertia That just pushes you further and further down the path that you're on And so if you're not sure what you want to do with your life And you're 18 years old Well, you got a problem because society today is going to tell you you need to decide and then they're gonna say well You need to go to school and then they're gonna say not just any school. You need to get a four-year degree So you decided 18 or 20 or whatever it was. I'm gonna be a lawyer. Where'd you go? Well, actually I went to undergrad at Michigan and then I tried to get a job at Best Buy and they were they said no You have to sell CDs you can't you can't build computers even though I was building computers at the time for neighbors and friends they said you got to sell CDs first and Then you can move up later and I thought well the answer to this is clearly more education Yeah, so then I applied to law school and I went to Michigan law and I thought I don't really want to be a lawyer But more education is for sure the way to get around that, you know I'll be able to do anything with this great law degree what it cost you about let's see counting undergrad Plus grad at least $200,000 minimum. So there it is. You're how old at this point when you get out When I got out of law school 26 years old, I graduated with a just soul-crushing amount of debt This is what we're doing to our kids man and it kills me because why in the world would anybody ever be Forced to decide what they have to do when they're 20 years old. It's I'm still figuring it out Yeah, and it's just an unhealthy unrealistic unnecessary amount of pressure that pressure Becomes inertia because once you decide then you declare a major and now you've written the first check and then the first semester Is buying it in the second? All right, so now with every passing day It's harder and harder to call an audible go. You know something maybe I'm pissing up a rope here Maybe this isn't for me, but no 30 grand 50 grand 80 grand 100 120 once bang bang bang $200,000 in the hole Looking for a job now as you described in a shark tank Yeah, now those jobs don't even exist anymore. They don't exist, but the real the thing that kills me the most Isn't the fact that you know people have to live with the consequences of their decision But it's the money. It's the debt and it's the pressure to borrow an unlimited amount of money We were 1.3 trillion dollars in the hole 1.3 trillion there is by no metric anywhere that I've seen a shortage of lawyers That they're 5.8 million jobs right now that exist that people aren't trained for that don't require for your degree today And they're sitting and so we're so completely out of whack with the opportunities. We're encouraging and the opportunities that exist Surprisingly none of those 5.3 or 5.8 million jobs that exist were none of those were discussed with us in our orientation At the university. No because to our earlier point those jobs are optically cautionary tales You know very very few people very few parents who didn't work in the skilled trades Go to bed at night thinking gosh, I sure hope Johnny turns out to be a plumber or a welder They don't wish it for them guidance counselors. Don't wish it for them We've got dozens of guys going through our program welding making over a hundred grand a year It's just you can't get their stories out and when people read them. They don't believe them and when they believe them They still go out That looks really hard. Yeah, sure So, you know, it's it's a it's a problem. It's a mindset. It's societal and it's systemic So follow your passion the word is on the street that the verdict of this It seems like you're just not a fan of that little dingleberry of well advice Thank you for that word by the way It's got to get back in a lexicon. Thank you. You're on the art of charm if we do nothing else, but re-introduce Dingleberry into the vernacular, you know, I think we can take some credit for that No, I would never simply go out and say oh passion is is no good You know, I would never say don't follow your passion What I said was don't follow your passion, but always bring it with you because the truth is why in the world Would you want to do anything you weren't passionate about? See on dirty jobs Example after example, this is the reverse commute. This is the salmon. We're talking about You know the salmon aren't following their passion although they are trying to spawn I suppose so you can make a case for it There's some passion involved. There's some passion, but when I when I think about, you know, like the septic tank workers I met there was a guy in the first season Les Swanson was his name of the Wisconsin he uh, you know, I Wound up at a tank with him One of these pumping stations on the side of the road like up to our Nipples in other people's filth knocking cholesterol off the side of the walls in about a hundred and twenty degree environment It was it was truly heinous. Yeah, and I and I looked at him at one point. I said less. Let me ask you something man What did you um? What did you do before this? How did this happen to you? He said I was a I was a guidance counselor in high school And then I was a psychologist and and I said you've you've got to be kidding me. Why in the world? Why this without meeting him without missing a beat he said I got tired of dealing with other people shit But you know aside from the obvious laugh line the joke is really on The rest of us because you know back to his house at the end of the day his summer house Sure by the pool with the margarita machine and his two trucks and his five employees and You know once again a guy doing a thing most people don't want to do creating not just a job for himself, but a business and His whole rap to me was look I this was never my wish fulfilled But I got to a point where I said what let's just put the opportunity before what I want or what I even think I want and Look, there's a again I don't want to say it with certainty because then it will sound like a bromide but The idea when I say the reverse commute what I mean is start with the opportunity Figure out how to be great at it and then Figure out how to love it. So the passion comes from becoming great at your craft. Yeah, we're deciding That you're going to love it. Look, I mean I know that sounds glib and this is a this is a bit of a stretch, but Why why are the divorce rates? among Arranged marriages so much lower Then in the West Yeah, I mean there's a lot of theories about that But I think the reason is because in cultures well one of the reasons is because in cultures where they have those arranged marriages They're they realize look this comes before the love part and the love part comes into the marriage later We build that through hard work instead of just hoping that it falls from the sky So that's you know, I don't mean to say that anybody can marry anybody and live happily ever after Chemistry matters, you know that that thing we call passion that that basic attraction that basic willingness to do a job That has to be there, but this idea that that person is responsible for your happiness or that that job is responsible for your your success That's a non-starter. It's a trap You hit the the big time if I can throw that word around there Relatively late for a lot of showbiz people where you this all hit off in what your early 40s I was a 44 when jobs actually went on the air Yeah, aggressive way and I assume that's not what you'd hope not what you plan. We kind of touched on that To what do you attribute that if not? Well, I'm following my passion the TV thing or were you doing just that and it happened to work out? Again, it there is a real element of Forest Gunbury got in this, you know, but I come to a point in my life where I was actually My my smugness with respect to my business plan Regarding touching everything like it's hot, right? Like I was doing infomercials a lot of them I was doing guest spots on soap operas. I was you know Doing animated projects. It didn't matter. I didn't care what it was and I didn't want to know what it was None of that was Germany. I just wanted to get paid and do good work and then forget about it and The truth is that that can only last you back to passion, you know, it's it's I didn't have enough My passion was in figuring out an overall lifestyle and congratulating myself for having five months off a year Where I could do stuff. I really care about The the switch that flipped on dirty jobs Just meant that there was no more time off. So now the thing I'm working on it has to satisfy both a bank account and it has to satisfy my time which is now completely consuming and And and I have to love it, you know So I didn't have to work hard to love it because there was enough Contrariness in the show like, you know, again, here I am remember back to the GOP and discovery I'm the guy at Discovery with the show that Discovery does not want you to like, you know in the same way the GOP is looking at those 17 people on stage going Yeah, look, we think this is the Jet Bus show We want you to like him and maybe maybe maybe that guy over there or maybe her Anybody but him Not the guy in the middle dirty jobs for the first season really was like that and it was so much fun To go to work every day and know that I was in this This place of a real cognitive Dissidence is a fun show to promote. It was a fun show to do and it just gave me permission really to weigh in on Any kind of work because we tried it all so dirty jobs was the Donald Trump of Discovery channel Man that your words not mine, but it was one of the many Look, and there have been others since 32 shows have come out of dirty jobs But you could draw a straight line back to the garbage pickers in the last job swamp people nice road truckers All that stuff Axeman, you know, those were all segments on on dirty jobs even Duck Dynasty Yes, right now now Duck Dynasty fundamentally different format, but all of a sudden Duck Dynasty shows up on A&E No one knows. I mean what it was confusing enough with dog the bounty hunter. Where's the art? Where's the entertainment? Right, right, true so this attention between brand and program and Brands who fall deeply in love with their own Romidal Version of themselves always interest me Because that's when they're most Well, it's when they're most vulnerable, you know, so the GOP knew exactly Who their constituents were gonna vote for except they were totally wrong? The Discovery knew nobody would watch a show with a middle-aged smart alec making poop jokes in the sewer They were wrong. Whoops. Yeah now what better stick your hand up a cow's butt. Yeah, what happens season 12? Still reaching into mayor's DC's from every species right? I made the mistake of watching the lamb testicles episode shortly before Prepping for this and yeah, it's one of the most memorable episodes at least for me because it caused a visceral fetal position a standing sort of Yeah, I don't know what you call convulsion, but not just one not not repeated convulsion Just kind of a dry heave and stay you recoiled every coiled. Yeah, well, it's it's it's normal You know when a anytime someone removes The testicles from a creature with you know with a tea with testicles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you have to You know you have to step back and take stock. It was that was probably one of the most important episodes we did why is that? Because it was my first attempt To do everything right You know, I mean I had this really passive aggressive relationship with the network They were getting flooded with complaints from OSHA and Humane Society and PETA And we sort of had this daytime, you know, and we're gonna keep the show going But I'm gonna be a better team player. All right, so I go in and I say look I want to do this story on Laming, you know, I want to do all the parts of lambing and part of that's gonna be castration and They said well, what's that involved? And I said well, let me tell you what I did I called the Humane Society and PETA and they both told me the same thing They said the approved method of removing the testicles from the lamb is to take up a rubber band and put it around It's sack thereby retarding the flow of blood To the testicles and then they turn black over a couple days and then they fall off like yeah I'm like oh my god really and I'm like that's so that's the PETA proof way And I'm like yeah, that's the way we do it and I said okay now in my mind. I'm thinking this is Visually this will be good TV weird, but I've never put a rubber band on the testicles of anything my species So we get there, you know and we Basically get all the lambs together and we start the process and Albert Rancher he pulls out a knife and he grabs the scrotum between his thumb and his finger He pulls it toward him and he cuts the tip off the scrotum and then he pushes it back and these two pink thumbs emerge from this Fleshy sack and he before I could stop and we're doing he just bends down and he bites them And he snaps his head back and rips him out by the root. Oh, here comes that singular No, but imagine me. I got three cameras rolling sure and I'm standing here thinking you know something I This is not what this channel has in mind So so I'm like, you know, okay, stop Albert stop you're doing this thing Right that people do in reality TV. You're trying to shock me hamming it up. Yeah. Yeah, and he's you know He was a great guy big old mustache his wife Melania two of them. There's just like what are you talking about? I'm like you can't bite the balls off a sheep dude. We're at a family show in 220 countries He was well, what do you want us to do? I'm like use the rubber bands. He was oh the rubber bands Well, yeah, the rubber bands said, okay, so we put another sheep up there and Melania spreads the legs Albert goes in puts on the rubber band with this special device that you know widens it and then put Him over the scrug still see my head anyway to put the lamb down on the on the ground and He looks at me exactly with the exact expression You would have if you were a lamb that had a very tight rubber band around your nuts You know it's it's troubling and he staggers takes a couple of steps away and then stops and looks back at me over shoulder And then he walks to the corner of the pen You know makes a circle and then just lies down and starts quiver And I say to Albert I'm like Jesus. How long is this uh, how long is this going to go on? He'll be In hell for about two and a half days. That's terrible. Meanwhile the one he had just You know bit down on yeah Prancing around this is literally two minutes later. Not a care in the world. No blood You know hanging out with his mom and trotting around So that episode was important because right there on international television We had proof that You know the business of being in compliance, but not out of danger the all that stuff we're talking about before right there It is I went to the expert I was told precisely how this works precisely what to do And I was absolutely wrong You know the way Albert had been doing it for generations was kinder to the animal It was more efficient in the field. You needed two people instead of three There's a long list of logical reasons to bite the balls off sheet. It's actually More sanitary too if you can believe it because how can that be true because dude those testicles they're in a thing called the scrotum They've never been exposed here. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, you don't linger down there You get it and you get out you get it get out poof. Bob's your uncle. So anyway, you know A parapet here. Yes. It was a parapetetic moment where you realize once again everything I thought I knew about removing The nuts from a lamb was wrong. What else am I wrong about and if you can ask yourself that question honestly Yeah, you're gonna find answers I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure if biting the testicles off a lamb is wrong. I don't want to be right T-shirt A t-shirt or a hat or both possibly Why'd you insist on doing the show in one take or is that even is that true? I heard you do it in one take Yeah, I mean we did look back specials where I was actually doing a version of raps You know, um, and and I would occasionally circle back and get those and we of course We shot lots and lots of footage that was never used so when you see outtakes at the end of the show That's always what that is But I insisted on on two things The first was never a second take because the second take by definition has to be a performance Right, sure. It's just redoing something that happened, but yeah toward slightly to the left, right or whatever Yep, or you know clean up your language. You stuttered a little bit there some old crap direction thing Right, that's the that's what tv does take two three four five 10 15 until somebody somewhere says ah, it's perfect. Yeah, it's perfect But it's a performance. So I wanted the show to be a love letter to take one that was That was the thing and you know the argument was well, what if we have a technical problem? What if a plane flies over and I said, I don't care So we got a thing called the truth cam which was just an extra cameraman with a behind the scenes camera who always stayed wide So if Doug's camera broke or toy or troys or somebody somewhere had a problem I could always turn to the truth cam step out of the scene and sort of narrate or chronicle The issue right and so, you know, we didn't use it in in every scene, but we used it in every show And toward toward the end we used it We relied upon it because You know that camera proved this was before you saw behind the scenes sure stuff right and so so the second thing was Tied to that it was I need the crew in the show I need the crew of the show and I don't they don't need to be the same Crew it doesn't matter, but we're in the process of shooting a show You know and so to pretend that we're not That's a that's a fundamental fiction with the viewer. So the best way to make sure that take one is used is to Contemporaneously make sure the crew is allowed to be in the shot in that way You know, you know, I have to say I got to shoot it again because I got you know I got Troy's leg or I got you know, John's boom was in the shot I don't care if his boobs in the shot You know where the sewer we're up on the mackinall bridge 600 feet up, you know changing nuts. I mean, it's like The what matters, you know, what matters is the it's not the shot. It's the work Speaking of this the sewer shot when you're in the sewer in san francisco and these I don't know these super old little brick round tunnels The episode with there's a rat that like crawls over your leg or something like that and you just kind of Freak out a little bit and I thought why is it a stinkin sewer rat that cracks the cure to for impenetrable micro veneer of cool You're talking about a scene that's cut into the open of the show goes by in about a second the truth is That episode was the first one we did and and that moment That moment was it was you know, that's something I talk about all the time around the country when when people ask my My transformation my parapetia from a host to a guest happened in the sewers of san francisco I was trying to Host evening magazine down there the very first episode of somebody's got to do it which became dirty jobs That's me in the sewer trying to look to the camera and And welcome the viewer into the sewer But at every turn I was thwarted, you know, I was thwarted by a lateral that exploded next to my head and covered my camera man With with crap and the side of my face. I was thwarted by roaches the size of my thumbs thousands tens of thousands of them everywhere And uh, and and the final moment that rat appeared on my shoulder There's a big rat man. It's like the size of a loaf of bread. Yeah, there's a big rat And it and it dove, you know, it dove off my shoulder into my uh into my lap and I was wearing these uh These thigh high hip boots and if you if you squat down at thigh high hip boots they gap, right? So the rat goes into the gap It starts burrowing in a southbound Direction man, I jump up scream hit my head on the ceiling a shower of roaches comes down I fall faced forward into this fast-moving chocolate tie of truly disappointing a flufium and uh, and and you know face first at it You know, I push myself up and I spit something out of my mouth. It never should have been in my mouth And uh, and I turned to the guy I was working with gene cruise And uh, and he said in that moment the thing that changed my career he said When you're done screwing around with the local wildlife why don't you come over here and give me a hand And so that's what I did rather than host the show We replaced rotten bricks in the sewers of san francisco I was watching that episode in another one in the airplane recently and uh This woman three rows or two rows behind me goes Yeah, I've seen this guy before. How does he keep his fingernails clean? So the public's dying to know how do you keep your fingernails clean? I mean, how do you go to dinner after that and go man? I'm am I Yeah, that's um, you don't I mean, look when you're when we were shooting that show it really and truly was a uh, it was a band of brothers kind of thing We didn't go to nice places We stayed in motel sixes when we stayed at super eights We stayed at hotels with numbers in the title, you know And I don't mean like if you see a number in the title of a hotel like four seasons Like no four is cool if they if the number is spelled out right fo you are right great But if it's the four the number four No, don't go in there, you know the super eight the motel six, you know numbers for whatever reason don't scream You know five star luxury, but I lived in a super eight And um motel six for years shooting that show And I can't tell you how many times not to your point about dinner, but just You know you come back to the room and you just smell like ass or something worse I would leave my clothes and my shoes in the tub I would sign A headshot and leave 20 bucks on a letter of apology for the maid Because I I couldn't take them home, you know, there's no way I could take those. Oh you left them there for disposal. Yeah, sure Oh, man. No, that's what I was saying. I I haven't bought I haven't bought clothes in 15 years, you know, I really haven't they were all just It's just like skin Extra skin not my own So if you're a motel six and you saw Feces covered or worse covered pair of jeans And boots and a headshot and you're wondering who the squiggly autographers from it was my growth It was me the tasteful letter of apology to the maid. Oh my gosh Celebrities get a lot of perks and um, you know free food free travel free clothing A lot of my shows fans wanted to know what the biggest perk was But I seem to recall you being granted some special VIP port-a-potty privileges on short notice Are you talking about the show or are you talking about a very disappointing? Oh, I know what you're talking about Sick bastard. Why would you I went for a jog back when I used to care about exercising This was probably seven years ago. I left my apartment in cow hollow and I jogged across the golden gate bridge This is what you're talking about. Yeah, I wanted to just get a rare glimpse into the lives of the iconoclast with this one So what happened for me was I jogged across the golden gate and um You know, I'd done my normal routine in the morning. I had a grand day, you know, not a grand day What's the big one the venti venti? Yeah a big old Yeah, I had as much coffee as you can sanely drink and I had a big old breakfast and I for the past couple of days had been um, not not struggling but aware of um Some disappointment in my lower gi track nothing that would preclude me from taking a jog but I was aware of it Anyway, uh, all went. It was a beautiful day. I jogged across the bridge. I was halfway back And it felt like an ice pick Was stabbed into my lower abdomen And a couple steps later I felt I felt it again and it knocked the wind out of me And I it might might my knees buckled And it was so horrible, you know, I all I could think of was god Damn it. It's so it all comes down to the o-ring, you know It's like like the gasket the get the dignity of the species It all just comes down to your ability to control this tiny little sphincter And I'm doing the math in my head, you know at this point. I'm I'm two miles from home And it's like labor pains the stabbing is now coming like every 90 seconds So if I run seven miles an hour, I'm two miles away 20 minutes, you know, I'm just not liking any of them I'm not liking any of the numbers But I got to get off the bridge because you know a bill of celebrity who soils himself on a national monument That's the kind of that's the kind of press you don't right. You don't need you don't recover from that too easily I got off the bridge. I came around the uh down on the presidio and um, and I realized I'm not going to make it I'm not going to make it. I'm the ultimate humiliation is going to happen right there on lumbard And I walked right around the corner on scott and I honestly don't know what I was going to do I I didn't know if I was just going to stand there quietly and crap my pants Where I actually pulled my pants down and and I didn't know what to do Yeah, it was I mean I'd lost my peripheral vision I was hearing a buzzing in my ears like nothing mattered except Except keeping that damn o-ring closed But like from Providence, you know, there was three construction workers Putting in amazingly a sewer line And they had a porta potty next to them and it was locked Because in san francisco, you sure they locked the porta pot somebody'll live in there Yeah, people were dying to get in those things. So I said um case in points I had done anything, you know, I didn't have any money on me or anything But I just said guys could I could I please get in here? And the guy looked at me said hey, you're that guy. Yeah, I'm like, please move quickly He opened that thing I got in there and I mean it was as close as close can be But uh, it just sounded like Bastille day, you know, and I came out and they were waiting for me with their cameras You know, so three selfies with three sewage workers Who really saved whatever dignity I have I've left at this point, but completely saved me And three selfies is a small price to pay I think I paid anything Are you okay with the fact that you're a role model to so many people? I mean intentionally or unintentionally through facebook television doesn't matter Is that changed your behavior at all in real life or online? um, not my behavior, um, but it's changed my, um Oh, I guess it has I guess yeah, you know, I mean you it's um It's odd because so much about 30 jobs was subversive and And so, you know, but that was 10 years ago. I'm not sure how funny it is for you know, for me to be as silly and Um irreverent as I was you know, I run a foundation now and I do some of the things now so I You know, I I constantly People don't really know exactly yet what the default position is for me like on this podcast. I'm doing sure right the way I heard I I did one the other day on um On the guy who invented a famous I don't want to give it away right but the guy who invented a famous food And he was a preacher a reverend And his entire world Was a rant against Uh masturbation. Ah, yes, right So I I told the story of this man and the way his Believes informed his diet and the way his followers ultimately adhered Uh to what it was he was getting at but in the course of telling the story You know, you have to say the word masturbate like 50 times, right? Sure, and I didn't want to do that because It's just it's a little crass. Well, you know, it's it's not crass. It's just the the problem is it's neither crass nor Proper it's clinical Sure, sure So it's like testicles today make people weirder and balls Right because it's like there's just something horrible about the the specificity of it So I just came up with you know every euphemism there was You know for corking your own bat or polishing the spear or burping the worm or whatever you call it Spilling a sin sauce, you know, there's that thousand of them and these get peppered through the entire thing well You know my podcast is patterned after the late great paul harvey who would uh really never Talk about spilling ones heathens stew, right and so um So I got a lot of calls people going. Hey, maybe maybe Maybe not so much with the uh, you know with the masturbating really I we listened to that one several times You would yeah, yeah, you got us nailed us there dirty couple and uh, and she would she would pause and go Wait, okay, I get this one. What is what does this one mean? I mean we we knew that they meant that and I'm explaining the physics of like Corking a bat for example. Yeah, look, this is you know my goal with that podcast. I have several but but bringing Young lovers closer together As they're you know, they're they're nuptials approach through short stories Fraught with self-abuse. That's certainly An aspirational goal a consummation the vowed league to be wished Top three purpose of the show for sure Yeah, we'll link to the show in the show notes as well for people who are listening to this and want to listen to micro's podcast But tell us about the foundation as well Tell us what you're doing with that and why it's important first. Um, it's called micro works It evolved out of dirty jobs In 2008 as you might recall the economy kind of you know craft the bed I remember I got laid off. Best thing that ever happened to me. That's why I'm doing this now So interesting by by 2009 Uh unemployment is 9 10 11 percent all over the country every single day That's the headline every single day All these people can't find work and the narrative became It's because opportunities dead On dirty jobs everywhere. I went in every single state Um, I saw health wanted signs You know just everywhere. I mean all 50 states and I just started to feel like you know, I think maybe I think maybe there's another Uh narrative unfolding here that nobody writes about and you don't have to dig far back in 2009 There were 2.3 million jobs that were wide open. We got a skills gap and um It it was an inconvenient truth for the prevailing narrative Because how can opportunity be dead If companies can't find 2.3 million people to do the jobs they have Clearly opportunities not dead Something else is so micro works began as a A pr campaign really to call attention to jobs that actually existed And that's really all it was ever supposed to be but then fans of the show started writing in All these uh apprenticeships on the job training programs and things that existed in their state So we built a trade resource center where anybody could go In 2009 10 11 and and see what opportunities in their state exist that you're never gonna hear about or read about And then we started awarding uh work ethic scholarships to people who wanted to avail themselves to those opportunities So I started putting the arm on big companies. I started selling crap out of my garage Collectibles rare and precious c r a p the acronym of course are crap auctions you know kind of a throwback to my my old qvc days and um And we raised and gave away Uh close to four million dollars so far. Oh wow in these work ethic scholarships. So it's a um I mean I hate to say legacy because it just sounds so precious, but it Micro works evolved out of dirty jobs its main function today is to Provide work ethic scholarships and make as persuasive a case we can as we can for the jobs That actually exist. That's what we do What kind of jobs exist that that people weren't finding that seemed to Welding and set in sort of trades that we were discussing before you can start with welding. I mean, you know, I work with the school in uh Southern illinois called nti um They got a call from uh newport news right in grissel around shipbuilders, you know, how many can you get us this month? Oh, wow, we got 50. How many do you need 800? Oh my goodness. So is that? Yeah It's all day long all day long if you're It's not We we think about work and we think about jobs in this country like You know, there are these static things that exist in a vacuum Jobs might but opportunity is not bad and so many of these jobs require you to do A couple of things that are really out of favor like like retool retrain reboot, but mostly relocate you know, it's not They're not right there necessarily waiting for you and it's really You know not to bash on millennials by any stretch because Whatever bad thing you have to say about them. It's simply a product of the people who raised sure. Yeah, absolutely but this this idea that uh The job of your dreams first of all the idea that it even exists Is fascinating the idea that it exists At a pay rate that will satisfy your lifestyle is doubly fascinating And the idea that it will exist at a pay rate that satisfies your lifestyle in your current zip code Is is is the height of madness? But that's what you know, so people expect a lot of the time. I run into it all the time Yeah, look this opportunity sounds great. But what do you want me to do? Move to north Dakota? Sure Yeah, how soon can you get here? I got I got dozens of people who do it every month You want me to go to the gulf? Yeah Yeah, that's where they're making 140 dollars an hour right now welding. Wow. Yeah. I mean, so yeah, you gotta have to go there And here's the thing. It's hot And it's hot and it's cold up there. It's not, you know, we're not in san francisco. This is not your Right. Yeah, where it often is cold and hot at the same sometimes in the same day doubly, so You know, we we call and work ethics scholarships because we make our applicants make a case for themselves You know, you've got to make a video. You got to write an essay. You got to provide references. You got to sign a sweat pledge I wrote a sweat pledge 12 point Statement of belief one night after I uh, drank a bottle of wine You know, if you're not willing to sign it, then it's entirely possible. This pile of free money might not be for you Before we wrap, Mike, I've got a story for you. The format may seem A little familiar This is based on a letter from a fan of the show One Mr. Matt Pinesi who found out through our bootcamp the school that we run in la that I'd be interviewing you and I thought you might appreciate this The letter reads as follows Dear jordan, congrats on interviewing mike roe. However, I've been harboring a secret vendetta against mike roe for years I think once you read this you'll understand why In fact, I'm quite interested in what he has to say for himself if you get a chance to tell him the following story In the year 2010 I was the intended recipient of a pair of world series game one tickets courtesy of the company for which I worked Originally, my friend's father one of the company's executives had planned to go But at the last minute something came up and the tickets were once again available I called my friend to see if he was up for the trip if we could somehow play hooky from work and pull it off But by the time I went to claim the tickets, I was informed they were already gone After a bit of prying my friend's father told me that he had given them to his friend mike roe who already lived in san francisco I of course objected on two counts One it was not made clear that the ticket lottery was open to anyone outside the company And two i'm sure if mike roe wanted to go to the game. He could have gotten his own damn tickets It's reasonable It's important to note that I harbour no ill will toward mike roe and in fact My wife and I only donate to the mike roe works foundation every year because it's the only organization We can both agree to give money to sign Matt but There's there's more also from matt Hey, jordan quick update. Hope this makes it in time First I've called my father to get more details for you And it seems that the story about mike roe getting those world series tickets is actually not true As it turns out the tickets were actually given to the brother of the ceo The reason he told everyone that he gave them to mike roe is because everyone thinks so highly of mike Nobody would be angry about him being a recipient of the tickets In other words, the tickets were sniped and he used mike roe as a cover to make that happen Sorry for the confusion. I guess you don't have a story from mike roe after all And I apologize for that but oh contraire mr. Penisey because mike as it turns out this time You were recruited for one final dirty job The filthiest of them all serving as a scapegoat for a ticket hustle perpetrated by a mattress company executive An executive who in a past life served in another highly esteemed position That of your college roommate mr. mike thompson Anyway, that's the way I heard good grief Mike thompson unbelievable. So wait a minute. Is that from that? That's not from mike thompson This is from mike thompson's kids friend who happened to be a fan of the art of charm And I said i'm interviewing mike roe and he goes i got a bone to pick with that guy Good grief that was a long run for a short slide as we call Mike thompson's kid goes to uh bucknell I think and so his friend probably does too. I don't know but that's uh Hard to know what to say to that except last time I heard mike thompson's name Well, we we talked a couple years ago. He reached out of the blue But he was a guy he used to work for black and decker in baltimore maryland And this guy he was he was a freak of nature He looked like he fell off a weedy's box and he also looked like Every quarterback for every winning college team you've ever seen and um, I always uh I always looked at him with something akin to naked envy. I'm happy now. He's in the mattress business. Good for you, mike Mike thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you