 And good morning Brian, how are you doing? Good morning, Rich. Doing well. Oh, great to have you on the call. Good to see you again. Well, so we're just coming up to the top of the hour. So let's go ahead and get started. As always, we tend to have folks that sort of get on the call just a little bit late. I do want to get started and kick off right away. We have, I think, what I imagine is going to be a pretty full agenda today. Well, first of all, as always, welcome to the Hyper-Legit Healthcare Special Interest Group. This is sponsored through the Linux Foundation. And as a reminder, we always record these events for future reference. And so keep that in mind as you engage in this next hour. As well, we have an antitrust slide as part of the Linux Foundation. It's up on your screen now. Please feel free to review that. And there's a URL for detailed information about the antitrust policy. In short, it just means please be a good person. And so really, with that said, let's sort of kick things off with introductions. I suspect folks will get on the call a little bit. But we do have Guillermo. He's fairly new. And he did a great presentation to the health care interoperability subgroup about a week ago. Guillermo, do you want to do just introduce yourself to the group here? Sure, sure. Thank you very much. Yeah, as Rich mentioned, I'm new in this group. And I'm just learning a lot since I just joined. My name is Guillermo Diaz. I have a startup here in Mexico, which have a representation of electronic health record company from California. And we have a challenge here, because I also participated in an organization in Mexico, an IT organization, that it's the IT technology group where participate almost all the companies who has presence in Mexico, like IBM, Amazon, Google, et cetera. So there is an initiative from the federal government that he wanted to see if we, as a group, we can figure out how we can create an interoperability project to connect almost all the public and private hospitals in the region. So basically what I did yesterday was a brief presentation. I mean, the last week was a brief presentation about my own high level solution. And I just put it into the group just to see with the experts if this schema will work or not. And learn about the experts how to craft a better solution for us. So this is basically what I did. And thank you for the invitation. It's great to have all the experts here and know that this group is working to create a better understanding about blockchain and all the benefits on that interoperability. Excellent. Yeah, outstanding. And so what specifically are you focused on using blockchain? I'm just going to call you. Oh, yeah. That's a good question. And actually, this is something that we have been discussing locally because some of the companies that participate think that blockchain is not necessary in my case or my own perspective. I believe that I would like to use into the protection of the data, the validation of the interaction with other systems and as a key factor to the privacy and all the things that we have to protect here by law and by the international processes and procedure that the health system has to comply. Oh, excellent. Outstanding. Well, thank you. Thanks for the introduction. Thanks for your involvement in the health care interoperability subgroup. Very much appreciated and great to have you joining the group here. I imagine there's going to be some really interesting work coming out of that subgroup, particularly as Stephen ramps up and engages folks like yourself to really drive some very interesting ideas forward within respective communities. So thank you. Appreciate that. Tremendous. Thank you, Rich. Anyone else want to volunteer? Introduce themselves if you're fairly new to the group. We have a couple of shy folks. So I see Jonathan on the call. I don't recognize your name offhand. If you're interested, you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, so I've actually been working for the last year or two, so I'm the founder of Transcendex. I'm a physician, a geneticist, but mostly do informatics and blockchain applications. So I'm on this call every now and then. Yeah, OK. Yeah, your voice sounds very familiar. Whereabouts are you located? I'm all over. Mostly my companies are based in Nashville, Tennessee. I live in Chicago, and I travel quite a bit. Outstanding. Very cool. Any specific projects that you're working on that are blockchain-related? Yeah, so I mentioned last week. I was on the call last week when Erica was posting, and I mentioned that I'm the chair of the IEEE identity in health care subgroup of the P2418.6. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, I remember reviewing the notes. Yeah, oh, OK. Yeah, so we're working on immunization records and using DIDs, so the decentralized identifier is a specification. And so I'm working mostly with Sovereign and Indy to actually, or at least one of the, someone who's using Indy to actually work out some of the interoperability, mostly about the semantics of what is an immunization record. Some of the challenges are also what information belongs in that verifiable credential and what doesn't. So the concern, we initially modeled it using FHIR resources as the evidence, and that might leak too much information. And so we're trying to whittle it down to what's the bare minimum necessity for a verifiable credential. And it's certainly apropos given the coronavirus outbreak that the, imagine there will be a vaccination, hopefully, for coronavirus in the future. And imagine it being really a credential for freedom of travel. So if you're stuck in China or in Japan or trying to get home and you're being blocked, just like you have the yellow card, the WHO yellow card for international travel, mostly for places like Africa where you actually need to have a documentation of a yellow fever vaccination, that this also will actually be more enabling freedom of travel in health care. And as I mentioned before, the immunization records are sort of like the hello world of EHRs. When I used to teach at Vanderbilt, I teach the students about writing and creating an EHR, it was always starting with immunization records, because there's actually a lot there with time just time stamping, signatures, codified representation of the vaccination record, even just like, should we use the CDC standard? That's actually like the big question right now. CDC has the most comprehensive code of vaccination records, but is that universally adopted across the world? So we think in the United States, it's the de facto standard, but maybe someplace to sell it's actually doesn't wanna use that good system. So again, it goes back to semantics as being the first interoperability piece. Yeah, and it's really interesting because semantics is actually very difficult to solve for. Steven, who leads our healthcare interoperability subgroup, has an interest in semantic interoperability, which is significantly more difficult to sort of solve for than syntactic interoperability. And so you can imagine very quickly things get complicated. Yeah, most of the very public credential working group is using JSON-LD, JSON-linked data, which is actually a specification that comes out of W3C. Unfortunately, it relies on web 2.0 technology. So the HTTP protocol, which is totally vulnerable to man in the middle attacks. So if we're using it for a credential, especially a security credential, and we've already demoed this as far as man in the middle SSL proxy, that it's just, it's a big issue of security vulnerabilities. And so we're trying to harden those as well. Something like tunneling, some sort of encryption of some sort to... Yeah, certainly. I mean, I'm intrigued by the DIT communication protocol and coming out of my theories. And so that is you basically can do HTTP over DITCOM. And certainly where you do the Diffie-Hillman key exchange or did authentication, and then you actually have a secure end-in, where we're actually like, it's hard because we're reinventing all these technologies and we're sometimes wrapping that in HTTP. So I hate when companies say, oh, we're doing blockchain, it's in on Azure, and we're basically leveraging it, but it's basically you're calling an API and the API is totally vulnerable to interception. So we're trying to truly be, at least my company is truly trying to be truly offline first and not relying on the HTTP protocol. Oh yeah, I was just gonna say, you're basically redeveloping a new protocol stack that has to be secure from the bottom up. So yeah, so you also mentioned the use of FHIR. What's the context again for using FHIR? So HL7 FHIR is, so when you're encoding the evidence for a vaccination record, you can do it like a piece of paper or a PDF or an image of the vaccination, but the JSON schema for immunization records actually pretty solid. The challenge with, I was involved with FHIR for a number of years, is that there's a million different ways to represent something. So you need to have a way that is deterministic to actually like, you have this ideally one way of encoding it and that's it, but FHIR allows you to be very robust in your characterization of many different things, which makes it challenging to interpret. Oh, interesting. So I think what I had heard that the SSI solution you're developing is using effectively FHIR as maybe the protocol or... So just to the JSON schema. So the JSON schema representing an object. Oh, okay. Oh, interesting. Oh, very cool. Well, thank you for that. Very interesting stuff. Great to have you on the call again. Yeah, I mean, some of the stuff that we do, I'm doing some work right now with Providence Health up here in Seattle area, and we're very much invested in sort of next generation interoperability. And the team that I work with does develop blockchain backend solutions, but we're finding that to engage with our payers. It's all about interoperability. So it's a really interesting... Yeah, and I think it's also challenging as I was involved in FHIR for a number of years. And so I spent three years in the clinical genomics working group. And my wife just implemented a genomics integration into her EHR at her work. And I said, oh, this is great. That's what I worked on. I spent three years doing it. And they actually did version 2.5 of HL7, not the FHIR RESTful API. Yeah, the full HL7, yeah. That's sort of her predecessor of her. Yeah, right, right. Oh, very cool. Great to have you on the call again. Appreciate it. Anyone else on the call want to introduce themselves? Jim Mason with Paramount Software and we do a variety of different blockchain solutions for clients. And I was just interested in tracking the conversation Jonathan had about, in a sense, schemas and for vaccinations and so on. And there's some architectural things that kind of work. So one, you guys already hit the idea that for getting HTTP, there's plenty of existing protocols that you can use that are not difficult to dynamically connect using SSL keys in effect and then wind up, as you mentioned, with some sort of a tunneling service in a sense that is, I'll call it well protected over the internet. But the other thing is this notion of schemas. So as a data architect, I do a lot of work on schema stuff and what we find two things. One is that the concept of a base schema that's common and standard across, whatever the different domains are, works fine. But then there's no reason not to allow what I call schema extensions. So the example you're talking about, I'm making the, I'll call it the use case up here, but the idea of travel saying that there's a vaccination as a verification, if you will, off my DID and that there would be a base schema on that makes sense to me. If the US required a different level of information about that vaccination, that would just be an extension. And so when you look at a DID, if I own the DID, I control a sense what I share. And so I would say, okay, here's my, in the case of something like the vaccinations, here's the base, in a sense of verification that I'll make available to everybody. But in the case of the US, I might allow additional information about that vaccination easily. So it's, I don't think it's hard to model that stuff is what I would argue. It's pretty easy to do those kinds of things. Because they're being done actually right now in blockchain and other domains. So things like supply chain is actually doing that where they have, in a sense, customized a point to point extensions to a core schema. So if you're a supplier to me, I can require additional information beyond the base schema. And that's just an extension that's unique between you and I and nobody else gets to know that information if that makes sense. Yeah, and I think the notion of extensions in a schema is pretty typical. If, so in a fire world, there's something called smart on fire in one way to sort of override some of the things that exist in sort of that bare bones schema is something in the JSON file, which is property called extension. So you can pretty much do whatever you want through that. And the other thing I'll argue is there's a concept of metadata mapping with synonyms. So you mentioned in the case of fire or whatever that there's some complexity, I guess, around identifying, I'll call it data elements in the schema differently for interoperability use cases. And so for things like that on the data side, we've always used synonyms, dynamically mapping the synonyms. And then that provided the mapping on to the different schema. Cool, very interesting. Thanks, Jim, appreciate it. And glad to have you back on the call as well. All right, well anyone else wanna introduce themselves before we move on? Alrighty, okay. Well, so I do have some interesting community announcements coming up. Of course, in about a month, the hyperledgic global form is due to happen. And if you haven't gotten involved, feel free to do so. It is early March, so we're coming up on it. It'll be in Phoenix, Arizona. So for those of you that are out of country, it might be a little bit of a travel. But we do have, which is really great. We do have sort of a representative sorts. I won't be able to attend, but we do have John Walker, who he's gonna be sort of our proxy for the HC-SIG. They're developing out a kiosk area for all SIGs, and so he'll be representing us at that kiosk. And I also understand, and Dennis, I think maybe you can weigh in with additional information on this. John will be doing a short video presentation on our behalf as well. Dennis, was there anything more that you wanted to add to that? I know you were involved in that sort of thread of conversation with hyperledger leadership folk. Yeah, thank you, Rich. The attendance of John is mainly representing our healthcare group, but we will also make the presentation of our POC, Consent Part in the Clinical Trials. So he will be also hopefully able to not only presenting the software version, and I hope he will also make the presentation of the fabric. This will be also a great lessons learned for the folks attending to the Global Forum. And as you said, we want to also prepare a short video about our activities, about our objectives, and the products we are working on. Excellent, yeah. Well, it's great to have John participate and represent us, outstanding to have him sort of step up and be a part of that. I really look forward to having anyone who's participating in that forum to maybe come back with us with a sort of a conference report. Is anyone on the call going to be attending that? Yeah, Rich, this is Ravish. I am going to be attending that. I'm already registered, so. Oh, excellent. I'll be there. Oh, well, good. You could work with John then at the SIG kiosk, perhaps, and help to represent the HCC. Excellent. Was there someone else on the call that's also going to be in attendance? Yeah, Jim Mason, I'll be there. Oh, good. All right, great. Good to have you, Jim. I would suggest, yeah, at some point you find a way to maybe rendezvous with John as well and Ravish, and that'll be a great opportunity for you to meet physically and get to know one another. And again, one of the nice things would be to have sort of at the back of your mind, keep your eyes and ears open for anything interesting that you think might be a value to the group as a whole as it relates to something in the healthcare space that you sort of encounter at the Global Forum. That would be great to do. Absolutely. Thank you. So as well, we have the HIMS conference coming up, also sort of beginning of March, and that's really effectively just one week after the Global Forum. And so again, if you're interested in participating, I'm sure you probably want to be queued for that already. It's already kind of late in the cycle for that. What's really gonna be great is that we are again planning a social event for the HCCIG. I am planning to attend, and the only caveat that we really have is has more to do with the coronavirus unfortunately. But the plan going forward is that I'll be in attendance as well as Brian Bellendorf. And I think most people probably know Brian as the executive director for Hyperledger. What most people maybe don't know is that Brian also has in his sort of background, he did some work in the healthcare space. So he's gonna be joining us at the HIMS conference again this year, and he'll be speaking at Providence Booth that I'll be involved with as well as the social event that's happening on that Tuesday, sort of after most of the presentations have come and gone. It's Tuesday afternoon from four to five. That's Eastern time. If you're interested, you do need to sign up for that. Here's the registration through Eventbrite. It's free to attend if you're gonna be joining us, but feel free to sort of sign up in advance. I think we are limited to, I think about 20 people or so. For folks that were in attendance for the HIMS conference last year, this is very similar to what we did last year, where a number of us, gosh, I wanna say maybe about a dozen or so folks, maybe a bit more got together. I think Dennis might recall we sat out on a veranda. Now let's recall this is in Orlando, Florida, which tends to be generally rather hot and humid. It's tropical or certainly subtropical, and it was very cold. So Dennis, do you recall the chill in the air? Very much, but it was a great event, Rich. Yeah, yeah. I really enjoyed it. It was a great networking, getting off to each other and also exchanging ideas, experiences. I enjoyed it very much. Yeah. Maybe I can also join this year. It's not clear now, tomorrow will be the milestone for me. I'm going to the site and let you know. Oh, good. Okay, well, my fingers are crossed. I'm hopeful to have you join us again. It was great to meet and work with you last year. So fingers crossed. Anyone else on the call planning to attend the HIMS conference? Okay, well, so I'll hold the same sort of level up, which is I will report back on anything of interest that comes out of the conference. As I think many people know, last year's conference what we really sort of took from that was membership got some very good direction from conference attendees as it relates to sort of where we got a sense for where attendees, and of course, attendees are healthcare professionals that tend to have IT sort of background. Or they tend to be C-suite folk. We got a good sense for where their understanding of blockchain technologies were about one year ago. And some of the feedback that we got was they want to understand governance of blockchain solutions, which is really good to understand because it had less, I had certainly fewer questions that related to what blockchain is. I remember those questions came up about two years ago, maybe three. And then last year we also got some good feedback about how we have a real interest in developing use cases to help folks have a better sense for where applicability for blockchain technologies might go to. And out of that we developed a use case development team that Erica is leading now. And so we'll get to her update momentarily. But yeah, I'm really interested to see where we sort of go this time around. I will speculate that this year we will probably get a better probably a better sense for folks using self sovereign identity. So SSI I think is going to start to mature a bit. And this is maybe in part in line with what Jonathan has sort of talked about earlier. But I'm certainly getting a feeling that is particularly in the healthcare space using SSI and DID technologies I think is going to be a very easy sort of spin up within the healthcare domain. But we shall see. It'll be very interesting. Okay, so let's move on to our subgroup updates. For those of you that are new, subgroups are really where a lot of the heavy lifting happens within the HC sick. These are very focused teams of folk that are interested in very specific areas in the healthcare area. And they really are driving a lot of the actual work that gets done out of the larger membership here. So we'll get started with Dennis. Dennis is our lead. He chairs the patient member subgroup. Dennis, do you want to give us an update? Yeah, thank you, Rich. For the newcomers attending our call, our scope is mainly clinical research and the consent process particularly. Brian attended our call two weeks ago. We had those chats. Thanks, Brian, for your inputs. And we are in the phase of POC, development of the POC fabric and solitude for the same use case, for the identical use case. And the solitude POC is already prepared. The next step is the fabric one. And our, both guys Kent, Kent is also in the call. And John are doing great work. Thank you guys. And I hope we can also have a viable piece of work which we can present in the global forum. And in the meantime, we are also developing the protocol part of the consent, which is to be integrated in the process in the workflow. And after both of the parts of clinical trial, the next part is the patient monitoring. This is the roadmap we are, we want to have in the next weeks, in the next months. And it is also very much important sharing our information, our experience with different groups. And we decided with the kind invitation of rubbish. Next week presenting our work in their subgroup after our call. This will be next week, Friday, nine Pacific time for our subgroup and payers subgroup, 10 Pacific time in the same channel. So this is a brief update from our sites. You are very much welcome next week to our subgroup and to the next one, the news group for our presentation. Excellent. Dennis, thank you for that. Again, thank you to you and the team. You guys have done a phenomenal job moving forward with the development of your solutions. So for those that are newer on the call, do you want to explain why you're doing both a fabric and a saw to solution? This is mainly a Lessons learned for the hyper ledgers community. We have actually very How can I say we are in the first steps of developing enterprise blockchain with different frameworks. And if you have a use case, which is also very much supported by Erica, the structure and the methodology, it's also important. The lessons learned how you how, how and what framework you have to choose for different use cases. And this is very much for the objective. And this is very much our efforts to To gain the experience and generate the knowledge and distributed to different groups in the hyper ledger community. This is the main object. Excellent. Thanks for that Dennis. And just interestingly, any, have you noticed any impediments or roadblocks between using fabric versus saw tooth is one easier to develop for than the other? Are there, have you noticed patterns of value or efficiency? We defined already evolution criteria, but it is very much early to talk about the pros and cons or suitable or not being suitable for this and that. And the, the both frameworks of the fabric are not very much similar. Interesting. Good. I would like to carefully, carefully put into the sentence. Kent, would you like to add to my words? Sure. Hi everyone. My name is Kent. I'm in Hong Kong. I'm helping Dennis and his team stand up a proof of concept on the fabric side and helping Alex on the saw tooth side. So just to answer Richard's question very briefly, there are lots of things that we haven't figured out how to do in saw tooth that we are doing in already in fabric. So for example, in fabric, we have channels. How do you go and replicate channels or the structure and architect of channels inside saw tooth? That's simply not possible. So we are experimenting with different ways as in having different maybe replication of the blockchain. So having three separate saw tooth blockchains running at the same time to replicate three different channels in the fabric. And now we're working on a smart contracts and we're having great difficulty trying to figure out how to do the same things in saw tooth because it works very differently even though we call them smart contracts. It doesn't work like that at all. Right. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. That would make sense. Well, it would be really interesting. Go ahead, Jim. Go ahead. I was just going to, Kent, which version of fabric are you working on now? I'm working on 1.4 and I will be standing up 2.0 fairly soon once we've got the global forum out of the way because 2.0 has some new features regarding the smart contracts and we're hoping to do something I've called multihopping. So we're trying to transfer data from one channel to another channel and that's simply not possible at the moment. So we're hoping to find ways to do that inside the blockchain network rather than calling out the data and then putting it back in which is maybe insecure in some ways. That's a great point because that's exactly why I asked the question because 2.0 now has that external chain code launcher which may be of use and then it also has a completely different program model that's a lot simpler. So I can just do a submit transaction instead of doing all the collect all the approvals and see if I met the policy requirements and then submit the transaction. So there's some big differences there and I'm just looking at the code side of it from looking at the samples in 2.0 and the code is a lot simpler than what I did in 1.4 and 1.3. Yes, so smart contracts are critical really to what we're doing. So standing up a network is fairly easy and fairly similar to many different projects. However, the uniqueness will be in the chain code itself like I just mentioned the difficulty we're facing is transferring data from one channel to another. So I'm not sure whether we can do that yet. Yeah, I haven't tried that but that external chain code launcher may be a way to do that. I'll quote the Oracle idea. The other thing I'll throw out there is a friend of mine actually has got his own blockchain platform company and he's based on hyperledger fabric and one of the things that he's actually done that's kind of neat. He's just completed. He built it originally on the IBM blockchain which is fine. But what he did is he ran an experiment where he took it off of IBM and re-platformed the whole thing and did it on Kubernetes and on DigitalOcean. And so what he's now got is a way to say, okay, I can connect the orgs on any platform underneath Kubernetes into his fabric network, which is actually pretty nice. So he no longer has the requirement like a, I can't believe how many blockchains have that requirement like, oh, okay, to join our blockchain. Yes, we use sawtooth or whatever it is, but oh, you have to run on this cloud platform because that's where in a sense it's hosted. But in his case, he's now running nicely underneath Kubernetes and so he can literally pull in anybody in the server from any platform which is pretty neat. That's very interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting because part of the benefits of Kubernetes is that you have a, we're running a container inside of a container. So you have, you're running the chain code inside a Kubernetes container itself. So you already have an extra layer of security. So if we have to hop the data outside of the fabric network, we can mitigate that by keeping it within the Kubernetes container or Kubernetes node. And then at least it doesn't go outside externally. So that's one way to do it. And also figuring out the data science behind it. So I figured that the data itself needs to be used somewhere else or down the road. So putting it on a blockchain is not the end or be all. So for people who do data analytics, they'll need to reassemble the data in a separate non-couch DB in a usable database system, like SQL or non-SQL. Correct. And then so with Kubernetes, it's very easy to assemble a separate database to and filter the data one side onto the chain and then another side into a usable analytics database and for other people to use. That's a huge issue. And that's unfortunately not resolved with anybody. I think we've resolved that because that's quite easy because you can either filter the data before it goes in and then if it's once it's in, we can filter again within Kafka. So you can say, we want to Kafka to broadcast the data for the fabric chain. Also we can filter it to a separate database for the analytics. And also luckily there is already an analytics platform called Kubeflow, which is data analytics for Kubernetes itself. So once you're going all the dots together, then theoretically it's quite doable. Actually, so thanks because I haven't looked at all at Kubeflow. What I do know is working with just regular fabric, one of the problems with couch DB. So first of all, you're not going to put obviously all the data in most use cases onto the fabric blockchain, but you will have that data available from couch DB. That's one part of it. But you're going to wind up with in a sense, off chain data as well. Like you said, that you have to distribute. You can use Kafka or whatever you want to use. One of the challenges there of course is that you're winding up standing up Kafka in the future differently because they're using raft into all, you know, as the default platform for what it's worth. You're right. You can distribute the data using something like Kafka to other nodes separately from the blockchain itself. The trick to it is, what frustrates me is, and you mentioned Kubeflow, which may work for the Kubernetes model, but if I'm not using Kubernetes, I don't have an easy way to get to the data. So what it is from, for the analytics as you point out. So what happens is, yes, I have the data in couch DB. Yes, I can run queries against couch DB. No, that's not actually a useful thing to do easily because there's no interface that you can get to couch DB that supports what I call standard analytics tools or SQL reporting tools. And so one of the missing holes for me, and maybe Kubeflow does address it, is this idea that I, you know, if you're a quote, a non-technical developer for a fabric blockchain, you should be able to come up and say, hey, I know SQL and I'm authorized and therefore I want to see what's not only on the blockchain, but I also want to see in the sense the off-chain data as well integrated easily with something, any SQL tool of which there's a million out there. And so the missing ingredient for that is that there's no JDBC driver for couch DB today. And I even looked at using camel and some other integration things. And there's still no, in a sense, way to integrate couch DB into one of those standardized data sources, which would be nice, but Kubeflow might do that. And that's worth looking at for sure. Thanks. Yeah, one more thing. Sorry to interrupt, Rich. Just one more thing in reply to that. Some interesting ideas I've had is using the event broadcast to actually send out the information after it's on the chain. So once you've, you know, endorsed everything and when everyone does the committing, then you can actually use event broadcasts to send the data out to your external database, well, not external, to another database. And then in reply to your second question was how do you analyze it? Well, there's a neat thing called Elastic Search. So we can actually try and repurpose that for data science, but that's probably for another day. Yeah. Well, excellent. Yeah. So thank you, Ken and Jim. Very interesting discussion. I suspect, Jim, you may want to sort of keep in sync on some of these topics. They're interesting, and particularly as we move over to Hyperledger Fabric 2.0, it would be interesting to see how that gets developed out. Well, thanks, Dennis, as well. We'll move on to Ravish. Just one remark. Rich, Jim, you are also very much welcome to our subgroup anytime. Oh, excellent. Perfect. Yeah. Your feedback is very much appreciated. Excellent. Very good. Thank you. All right. So moving on. So the payer subgroup is headed up by Ravish. Ravish, you want to give us an update on the work that the payer subgroup is doing. Yeah. Rich, thank you very much. And yes, we have started with our meetings for this year. Last week, we had our first meeting for 2020. And our goal was to kind of nail down the scope for going forward or at least things that we want to accomplish in 2020. Again, I will have an open invitation for any of these group members to join our subgroup. We have kind of nailed down at least one use case that we all want to get started on from prescription management standpoint. If you look at the industry today, usually go to the doctor and you, you know, get a prescription prescription gets sent to a location of your choice. And then, you know, if you have to be fluid in, you know, getting your prescription filled, it just takes another step to go back to the doctor, get the, you know, get it re-sent to another location and all. So what we are thinking of is, you know, kind of looking at a framework that can help manage that information such that, you know, the right parties are in the, you know, in the flow. And at the same time, there is a real time consent management from the, from the member to be able to, you know, you know, a physician sending out a prescription and who is retrieving that prescription is being managed by the member as, you know, they visit a location and, you know, kind of with the real time consent, which actually, you know, drove us to a conversation, you know, with Kent on, you know, their group has done some work on e-consent and that's something that we are kind of collaborating in our next meeting to hear from them. Kent and Dennis, you know, group on, you know, what they're doing on e-consent and see how we can, you know, use that or apply that to the overall, you know, use case that we are working on. So that's where we are. We have, you know, one of the pairs that expressed interest last year, you know, we just wanted to kind of reorganize our group and then go back to them and see how they, where they can, you know, help with some resources to start the overall, you know, I would say POC or kind of a use case creation and kind of do some kind of a validation from industry standpoint on. And I'm sure while we are doing that, we'll uncover some of the other things that come in our way and it'll take that shape. So that's where we are right now. Again, I encourage everyone to, you know, see if they, I have interest in from pairs standpoint. See if you can, if you can join the meeting and add value. I'm sure anyone on the group can add value. And if there is anything that you think should be added to the agenda for going forward from pairs standpoint, please do bring it to our notice and we'll see what we can do to incorporate that in the plan. Thank you, Ravish. And as just as a reminder, how often do you meet and when do you meet? Yeah, we have moved our meetings to every other Friday. One PM Eastern time to accommodate. I think there was some confusion going on from the previous meetings on when do we meet. So we just kind of realigned that we might have to have another, you know, kind of free adjustment of time based on, you know, making sure all the members who are active and are joining regularly. Just, just want to make sure that the time is convenient. But as of now, we meet every other Friday. We have our next meeting next Friday at one PM. Excellent. Sounds good. And that's, that is immediately after the patient member subgroup meeting, correct? Yeah, I think there is a, there is a, it has been updated in the Hyperlegic calendar. And I do know there is another meeting just before that meeting as well. Right. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that's, that's Dennis's meeting for the patient member subgroup. And then I believe then, then you're the next hour after that. So that would be great for us to sort of have that aligned in a convenient way for people to just sort of keep in the, in their minds that the week opposite of this general meeting week as when two, two of our three subgroups meet. And then of course our healthcare interoperability subgroup meets on, on the pre-seeding Monday. So, so thank you for that to be, Ravish. Appreciate it. And then speaking of the healthcare interoperability subgroup, Stephen Elliott leads that. I don't see Stephen on the call. Is there anyone on the, on the, on that team who'd like to speak on Stephen's behalf? So, so what I, what I know from Stephen is, of course, we had our guest earlier on the call Guillermo from Mexico. He was, he gave a great presentation about some of the work that they're doing there. That presentation was made to the, the HIS that Stephen's subgroup. And it's always great to get presentations generated. That presentation is available for anyone that was interested to sort of follow up on it. And I highly recommend you'll sort of listen into it. Through our, through the wiki here. And it's all recorded. And again, obviously all our subgroups are recorded as well for the same reason. So I encourage you to sort of do, take some time to, to check out that presentation. I know Stephen going forward is, is developing a very mature project plan. And again, as, as I think we talked about a little bit earlier, his interest is developing a semantic interoperability solution, which as we know interoperability is a big issue in the, in, in the healthcare space. And then specifically as it relates to, you know, trying to integrate blockchain solutions into sort of legacy systems within healthcare. And of course it seems like just about everything is a legacy system these days. So it's a very interesting space to be in. So if you haven't had a chance to sit in on one of Stephen's subgroup meetings, it would be great opportunity for you to do so if you're interested in interoperability. Okay, so moving on to our ad hoc teams. I always have sort of this question out to anyone who is a confluence expert. I think Jim had sort of volunteered some of his expertise. What we're really looking for is sort of someone who has sort of a big picture view on how we might sort of take not just this SIG, not just this SIG, but maybe all SIGs and try to find a common sort of fit theme across all of them. And our interest, and this is at a much broader level, is to find a way to make it much easier for members or future members, someone new to the organization to sort of come here, get a good sense for what's available to them, and then to be able to move back and forth between special interest groups to find an appropriate fit. And so I always sort of keep this, we have a sort of this ad hoc redesign team that we sort of keep spun up for addressing these sorts of issues as they come up. And so I just always want to keep it open to anyone who's interested in participating and sort of thinking big picture on a redesign or tweaks to existing design within our SIGs proper and our HC SIG specifically. Rich, I'll make a comment. At least the nice thing about the way you set it up is that we have the healthcare SIG, but then the subgroups are all, in a sense, children of the parent page, which is nice. You know what I mean? On the project list, I go to healthcare and once I open up healthcare, I can easily see the three subgroups there for what's worth. I don't know other than search and maybe some tags, what else you would do to make the subgroups visible, you know what I mean? But the way you have it organized is nice. Oh, okay. Well, good. I'm glad to hear that. Thanks for the feedback. Yeah. And so in the healthcare team, our SIG here really is one of the first early, early groups here. And so we had a lot of sort of flexibility in how we wanted to do things. I think we were the first to do subgroups proper. So it's good to know that that seems to be working very well. And the mechanism from my perspective is very good because these general meetings are really intended for roll-up in the same way that if anyone is involved in board activity, you have committees and those committees roll up to usually an executive committee that then rolls up to a full board. That's a very, very similar mechanism. Okay. So Erica, do you want to give us sort of a status on our use case development team? Sure. Thank you, Rich. Before I give the update, I just wanted to make a comment to the payor subgroup with Ravish. If you need any help with like the mechanics of prescription processing, I have a background as a pharmacist and I think there's another pharmacist who calls in occasionally. So I can try and call into the next meeting or if you, you know, if you want any perspective from that level, go ahead and let me know or send me the invite or I'll try to find the invite for the meeting. I do think I have another meeting at that time, so I'm not sure it'll work, but I'll try to call in. Okay. So the use case subgroup, we have four use cases. I've reached out to the people who have kind of expressed interest and set up a meeting for February 18th. I'm still waiting to get confirmation from some people on attending that meeting. We're really flexible on, I think it's on a Tuesday. And I'm kind of just randomly picking a time. So I'm sort of working around everyone's schedule to try to figure it out. But I, like all the other subgroups, I welcome anyone who's interested in any of the use cases which are medical records, payer, credentialing and supply chain. I have a background as a literature analyst and so I really want to make these evidence based and kind of go out into the current literature and see who's been using hyperledger for different pilots or proof of concepts and sort of basing these use cases off of what people are doing. Not only out in the literature, but in the subgroups and within our group and other standards organizations. I also have access to a very large library of blockchain and healthcare articles that was put together by my very good friend Wendy Charles. So I can help with gathering evidence for the use cases to write them up. So, and I also, I'm a review editor for frontiers and blockchain science and an ambassador for blockchain and healthcare today. So I have a lot of access to literature and I'd really like to make these use cases compelling and quality so that we can use them to present to, you know, other companies or interested stakeholders in healthcare. So if you have any interest in helping out, we do, we probably are going to need more people to help write these. And you don't have to have, you know, I know a lot of you have a technical background, but these are going to be more high level and get into a little bit more depth with which hyperledger solutions are being used. So if you have any interest, please let me know. Excellent. Thank you, Erica. Yeah. And this, this, this team really came about as a result of last year's feedback from, from the HIMS conference. And so, yeah, this, this is very important to work forward. And so I, I imagine there's going to be some really great value as we push these back out into the healthcare community to help, help advise folks on, on how best to make use of blockchain technologies. So, so thank you for that, Erica. Okay. Well, we just have a few minutes left, but I do want to talk a little bit about our membership survey. This is, we do this every year. This is an annual event. And so I want to make sure that we get everybody involved in this. We have about a thousand members involved in this special interest group. So we want to try to get as many people to, to be representative of those thousand members. So the, the survey itself is through Google forms. It should be fairly straightforward. I have a link here for you to, to use if you haven't already taken the survey. So has, has anyone on the call not taken the survey yet? Would you admit that you didn't? So if you haven't, please do. This is really important because really this, this helps us, helps Erica and myself sort of set direction for, for this special interest group. And in the feedback that we get really helps to dial in on where our focus needs to be. And we, you know, we ask an awful lot of interesting questions about some, some fundamental things about, you know, your experience using blockchain, the types of blockchain frameworks and products that you're using in that space. And so it really helps us, helps inform us on how do we move forward. And our deadline is for the survey is next week Friday. So we have about a week to go. And again, like I said, if you haven't taken the survey, please do so. It's a pretty straightforward survey. It'll take, I don't know, maybe three minutes, five minutes to do. It's pretty straightforward. So I highly recommend that, that you participate in this. I suspect sometime midweek next week I'll send out a final reminder for folks to the whole of membership just to make sure that we get that taken care of. Okay, so, so really a couple, a couple of remaining things I always post out here, a couple of links for anyone who's interested in getting involved in a sort of government sort of subsidized blockchain, potential opportunities. For those of us that are in the small business world, these are called SIPRs or SITRs. SIPR is more small business oriented where a SITR or SDTR is small business weighted to academia. And then we also have grants that are managed through the NIH National Institute of Health. Those are links that I just keep there so that anyone's interested in sort of driving solutions and looking for sort of funding efforts, funding opportunities that all happens through here as well at an international level. If you are a qualifying small business, UNICEF offers what's called an innovation fund and that could go to a blockchain solution as well. So with the last few minutes remaining, any comments or questions before we close out for today's meeting? I just wanted to say that next weekend, the weekend of the 14th, there's a big blockchain conference here in Denver called ETH Denver. It's not really healthcare, but this is the first year that I've been told and asked to sort of participate in the healthcare region. But yeah, it's a big hackathon and actually Vitalik, B.Taren is going to be there, the founder of Ethereum. It's a huge event. And I can see if there's any hyperledger presence there. Oh, excellent. Okay. And if you want, Erica, feel free to post it up to the HCCG listserv if you think it's appropriate. I suspect some aspects of healthcare may be represented at the conference, so it may be valuable to some folks. It's always good to get a general sense for the overall quality and maybe gravitas for conferences in general so that we can get them on our sort of collective schedules as we sort of learn more about them. So thank you for that. Sure. Sounds good. Alrighty, any other comments or thoughts before? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, this is Yermol speaking. Sorry, I have to switch because I'm driving to a meeting. But a quick question for you or for the team. Is there any educational courses online or some documentation that we can use inside this specific for healthcare or I have to search into the web just to find out if there is something around. Yeah. So that's a great question Guillermo. So offhand I would say we have a resources section. There may be some value here and I would recommend that you just sort of take a look and sort of walk through that first. As far as educational information regarding blockchain in healthcare I don't know offhand. It's not something that we do internally in healthcare. I would say it's a good question. I would say it's a good question. I do know that hyper ledger through the Linux foundation does do training for their frameworks but that is not really healthcare related. So I'll open that up. Erica, any thoughts on good resources? Yeah, there's a lot out there and they go through use cases that include healthcare but it's not specific to healthcare but there definitely are some out there that are specific to healthcare and there's some bad ones out there too. So in addition to what Erica would pass along I would recommend Guillermo, feel free also to use listserv for this because I think this is a great question and again we have a thousand members in membership so it would be great to use listserv generate an email, ask that question and honestly it's a good question and I just don't know I can't give you a great answer but I'm sure someone out of our thousand folks would have some very good pointers to push you to so that would be a great question to ask. I'll throw in if you're looking on the technical side not the use case side but more just the technical side on fabric for instance the fabric documentation team has done a great job not just documenting what fabric is and how to use it but they've got some pretty good tutorials out there now and they've got some more that are coming on the deployment side. Yeah, they're very very good with their documentation absolutely I totally agree Jim. Okay, well thanks everybody have a great rest of your day and have a fantastic weekend we'll see you in a couple of weeks. Okay, thank you very much guys. Take care. Thank you very much Chris.