 So, Johnny and I are so excited today. We have Michael Sorensen on a marketing executive, personal development junkie, and best-selling author. And we love the book because we were talking about this earlier before we jumped in. This month's theme is emotional bids. We delve deeply into Dr. John Gottman's research on emotional bids. And the one thing that all of our fans have said is, okay, how do I apply this in my life? It's a phenomenal concept, but it's a little heady. It's a little difficult for us to actually work into our daily life. And that's why we really love the book because in the book, there are practical examples of how to use this with your coworkers, with your significant others, and your friends so that we are taking this heady scientific concept of emotional bids and actually put it into practice, which is so impactful. And I know Johnny and I were talking about this earlier in our own lives. And we're excited to share the story of how you discovered emotional bids and this concept around validation, really allowing it to be something simple that we can put into our lives so that the people around us feel good. And I think all three of us have the common thought of learning about this and thinking, wow, this is a superpower right here. So the book is, I Hear You, the Surprisingly Simple Skill Behind Extraordinary Relationships. I got to ask to start marketing executive writing a book about emotional bids and validation. How did you get there? Honestly, it's a funny story because I never, a lot of people ask me, oh, congrats on the book. You know, that was probably something you always wanted to do. And I'm like, no, like I never did I ever think I was going to write a book. I've never sought out to be an author. But what happened is actually a number of years ago, I started seeing a therapist to get some help working through a number of issues in my life. And I quickly found out that I'm a huge proponent of therapy because I learned all sorts of valuable life skills that literally transformed every aspect of my life from my dating, from my family relationships to my management. I'm a manager of 20 or so people at work. Through meeting with this therapist, I came across a ton of valuable life skills. And one in particular stood out as being especially powerful. And that's that principle, that skill of validation, which, you know, thinking about your, this month's theme, emotional bids, validation is what people are looking for when they're bidding, right? When they're putting that bid out there, validation is what they're looking for. And so I started learning about this through therapy and started using it in all those aspects of my life. And it was, it was like Johnny said, like a superpower. Like I was able at work to take employees that were super ticked or frustrated and help calm them down. I was able to deal with family members who were having a hard time. And I, you know, even if I didn't have good experience or advice to give them, I was able to help them feel better. And then I was able to just connect better with people throughout my life. And so I had experience after experience after experience of this just working magic in my life. And I started talking to friends about it. And they're like, what's this emotional bids like validation? What are you talking about? I'm like, I got to find a book. I got to find something, you know, that I can share with them. And there wasn't much out there. There's certain something certainly Gottman's work is powerful. But ultimately the thought came to mind, well, you should write one. There's not something that puts it out there plainly and simply. And then, of course, my inner critic shot back. I was like, were you to write a book? Right, you're not therapist, you're not psychologist, blah, blah, blah. But that thought persisted. And I honestly just felt like I've got to do this to just share the well. And so I published it about a year ago and it's now consistently a number one bestseller on Amazon in multiple categories. I get the messages, emails almost daily now from people across the world. It's been humbling and exciting because it is powerful, you know, this concept, these principles that you guys are talking about. I know Johnny and I are big proponents of therapy, but we have some listeners who are probably on the fence or even skeptical. Is there anything that you could say to our audience about the impact that therapy has had on your life? And I know, obviously, you were skeptical in the beginning. What helped you, you know, move to that next step? Because sometimes admitting that I need the therapy is the the biggest step for people is like, well, that's for someone else. I don't need that. I'm not sure it could help me. Sure. Sure. Well, first off, I think it's the right to be skeptical because you get the wrong therapist and they can mess you up. Right. So you have to get the right person. And for me, it was just asking around, right? I had some people that had met with this woman and really swore by her as far as do I need it? Do I not? I mean, obviously, that's a that's a personal question. Everyone has to look at it. I've got a close friend of mine, though, who I think put it perfectly. He's he's very much like the manly man, like, you know, the leather jacket, like the last guy I think that you would expect to talk about emotions and things like that and feelings. But he started seeing a therapist and he came to me and he's like, bro, like, I tell everyone, I got to get a therapist. He's like, we take our cars in for oil change and regular maintenance. Like we do all kinds of preventative stuff on everything around the house, but we don't do anything for our minds, you know, and we just expect our brains to just work perfectly from birth to death. And we don't get any help just kind of clearing out the clutter. And I love that because that's that's what therapy was and is for me. It's just an outside perspective to say, you know, have you thought about this? Have you approached it this way? And, you know, it's it's awesome. Clutter is is one way of going about it. And I also see it as as older you get. You're just taking on sustained damage and it's continually building up and and that needs to be straightened out. I mean, it's and I don't think people understand just how much susceptible you are to taking on damage from so many different directions, even from the media, from things that your friends say, like I was just reading your book earlier today, just thinking about some of the earlier moments in childhood of hearing something that forced me to go inward and and understanding how long it took to get back outside. I was thinking of a friend who as I was excited about something earlier in life, I think I was just getting into my teenage years, 13, 14 years old, just getting that as those those friendships where everyone's starting to become a little bit self aware and I was excited about something. I think it was about something about a band coming to town or possibly maybe have been myself playing a show for the first time as a teenager. And I remember one of the other guys in my peer group looking at me and saying, you've gotten so your head has gotten so big since you've gotten this band. And I remember being so terrified of that because I didn't want to be that sort of person who's walking around being smug. And and because of that, it instantly shut me down and it took. I remember thinking about how much that invalidation that's what had it kept me for a while to open up again about things that I was excited about. And of course, you know, when you're reading something such as your book, it helps you go back and start to look for all those places where you've taken on some damage so you can look to see if was there anything warranted there or was that just me being unassured of myself and taking that hit? I love that. And of course, as we grow old, we collect friends and we have family members and sometimes family members can even be toxic. I wrote an article about how to remove toxic people. It's one of the the most frequently emailed questions I get is, how do I actually do this? So you have that component of toxicity, but then you also tend to surround yourself with like-minded people. So if you hold on to these ideas, they're not being interrogated. You're not being asked, well, why are you still worried about that, Johnny? Whereas therapy offers that moment where a third party asks you plainly to explain to them why you feel or think that. And all of a sudden you go, wait a second, I don't even know. Or, you know what? That is preposterous. But our friends certainly aren't doing it. And a lot of times our families don't even have the tools. And that's what we love about the book because as we start talking about validation, we're going to get into this a little bit deeper. It's practical. It's something that you can apply at every level. And you start the book beautifully talking about how this has helped with your dating life, but also with managing others. So can you speak a little bit to how emotional bids and Dr. Gottman's research has helped you in the workplace? Because I think that's the one for a lot of us. We probably think the least when we think emotional bids. Sure, sure. And I'm happy you asked that because that is one of the, I preach that almost more than the relationship side of things. I mean, at the end of the day, they're all relationships, right? I think that's the key point here is you're right. It's not just for romantic relationships. If you're interacting with another human being, they are making emotional bids and they're looking for validation in some form or another. I use it all the time at work. In fact, one of the most pertinent examples to me is I had a coworker who, we can have a history together about having very long-winded conversations where if he's concerned about something, he'll come into my office and I'm not even exaggerating here two hours sometimes for concerns that he has. And I would talk, we talk in circles and I'd try so hard to say, hey, we got a cover, don't worry about it. So he comes into my office one day and he's upset that I've assigned another coworker to a project and he says, Michael, I just got to tell you I'm concerned. I don't feel like this guy's qualified for this project. And I'm afraid that he's gonna mess some things up here. And I did like most people do and I just said, hey, you know what, don't worry about it. He's gonna do fine, it's all gonna work out. And if we pause for a second and look, his bid was, hey, see me here, I'm nervous. And all I did was shoot it down and say, don't be nervous, you're okay, right? Which is very invalidating. It's turning away from his bid. And sure enough, he just came right back with another punch. Well, I don't know about this. Well, did you do this? And honestly, it almost started to get personal because I said, look, I've got this cover. And he said, well, honestly, Michael, I don't know if I can say this, but I question whether or not you know what you're doing. And I was like, okay, take a step back, you know my mind, like I'm like, okay, calm down. But I realized in that moment, hold on, I'm approaching this wrong, right? I can play this for two hours like it always does, but I had just met with my therapist not a week earlier and we were talking about validation. And I'm like, okay, here's a chance to try this. So what I did is I paused for a second and I just listened to what he was telling me, right? I tried to kind of get into his shoes and go, okay, you know what? He's worried about this. I actually make sense why he's worried because he doesn't have the whole picture. And so I told him that. I said, okay, you know what? I actually appreciate the fact that you're concerned about this. Like all you see is me assigning this guy this project. You don't feel like he has enough of the credentials that you know enough qualification and you're worried that he's gonna damage our brand. And literally he gives this big sign and goes, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And then he kind of leaned back and I was like, oh, we're making progress here, right? You know? And so just that validation, finally he felt heard and he was able to put some walls down. And so we talked a little bit and after I had validated him, I still didn't agree with him, but I was able to still validate him. And then I said, you know what, I appreciate that and I appreciate you keeping an eye out for our brand. I think you're missing some information. Can I share, you know, the full picture? And he said, yeah, definitely. And so I explained the situation to him and literally in 15, 20 minutes, he felt good about it, I felt good about it and he's out my door. And I remember leaning back in my chair and I was like, I just got back an hour and 45 minutes on my life here. Like I was gearing up for another two hour thing here. But it's powerful in management because you're gonna have disagreements. You're gonna have people who are frustrated or upset and they're looking for validation. They're looking to see that you understand them. And as a manager, as a coworker, it's powerful when you know how to respond that way. I love that. And I think you're right in the fact to focus on these things at work because they're where the easy, quick wins are gonna happen first. Because you're there every day, you have an opportunity to work through these. And maybe a little bit of a safer environment that perhaps with your romantic relationship where, you know, maybe you're not so willing to try some new things to work through, but once you start getting those victories of work, you start seeing the relationships grow and strengthen and perhaps it's gonna be a lot easier to take them to. The misses or the missing. Just follow up on that. When you think about it, all these other relationships in our life where there could be conflicts, well, you can move away from your family. You don't have to pick up the phone if your parents call and you're in conflict. You're a significant other. You could break up, you can move out. But work, we often feel trapped with our coworkers because maybe our career doesn't have that opening to move to. I need that paycheck. I need to make things work. And if you have a toxic work environment where you're in conflict with other people, you don't have these tools. It can really wear you down. Who doesn't wanna save more time at work? Yeah, that's the other thing, right? If you pick up my emotional bids, you won't have to deal with me for that. That explains why I'm working so hard. So we've talked a lot about emotional bids. I would just love to hear in your words what emotional bids are for the audience. Sure, so an emotional bid, as Dr. Gottman pointed out, is basically any request for connection. And they're so subtle oftentimes, which is what makes it difficult for some people to pick up on. But it's anybody coming to you to share something, right? So if I come to you, AJ, and I'm like, dude, you'll never guess what happened at work, right? That's a bid. I'm wanting you to go, well, what happened? Tell me about it, right? Or if I come to you and I'm excited, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this amazing thing happened. It could be all the way down too. I love the example you guys gave in your last podcast of, oh my gosh, look, a purple parakeet. It's just pointing something out there. That's a request for connection. It's me wanting you to recognize me, to validate, you know, to kind of affirm, oh yeah, that is cool, or oh, that's awesome, or oh my gosh, I can't believe he said that to you at work. It's a request for connection. Right. And when we talk about validation now, how would you define validation for the audience? I see validation as really the desired response, if you will, to an emotional bid. So validation is in essence saying, I hear you, like I understand where you're coming from, and it makes sense that you feel that way. And that's an important distinction. A lot of people, when they hear the word validation, if they're familiar with it at all, they assume it means agreeing with the other person. Yeah, and that's not the case. And that's an important point to note, that you can validate someone, even if you don't agree with them. Right, so to go back to my example with a coworker, I didn't agree, I firmly believe that it was the right move to assign that person to that project, but I was still able to validate him. I was still able to see that he was worried that he was, you know, X, Y, and Z. And so I was able to validate him and say, you know what, I get it. I understand why you're frustrated. I would feel the same way if I were in your shoes. And because I meant that, he felt validated, and then I was still able to share my perspective. So validation is just saying, oh my gosh, I hear where you're coming from, and that makes total sense. And to go along with that, I think a lot of people tend to get worried about any point where they're validating anything, because as you mentioned, of not wanting to agree for fear of becoming the nice guy, or the nice girl, where all of a sudden, if they've heard that a few times in their life, they've swung the pendulum to the other side, and as we know, everything becomes an opportunity to try to either negate or to be sassy with the person that they're meeting for the first time, which obviously, if it's a first time meeting, it's jarring and it's more repulsion than attraction. Absolutely. And I think validation is, it's a lot simpler than people make it out to be. I think that's the beauty of it. When you hear validation, you're like, how am I gonna do this? This sounds like heavy lifting to me. But it really is being an empathic listener, understanding the emotional context of what we're dealing with, and allowing that person to feel that emotion. When we talk about negating, we talk about turning away from the bid, we're basically saying you can't feel that way around me or you shouldn't feel that way, and we're projecting our own emotions and thoughts on the other person in the moment when they absolutely don't want that projection. Right, well, and I appreciate what you're saying, not negating, because honestly, as we're talking, I think about, if you want a shortcut to validate, just don't offer advice, and don't try to make someone feel better. Like that's the number one mistake I think we all make. I literally did it last week with my girlfriend. I wrote a book on this stuff, if you think it should be like second nature, but she comes to me and she's all frustrated about something, and I immediately jump in with solution. Well, have you done this? You should do that, and sure enough, she starts pulling her walls up. Well, yeah, I did that, but la, la, la, la, she starts going and I'm like, oh, oh, red flag, sorry, I was supposed to validate you, right? And so if I didn't give advice, and if I just said, oh my gosh, that sucks, suddenly that's all she wanted, she didn't need advice. So funny as I was flipping through the book, I'm reading Amy's conversation, I'm dating Amy, and I'm like, I feel like I'm David, I'm just going through, and I'm like, ah, and countless times in our relationship, after I've given what I think is this amazing advice, it's worked for me, I know it's the solution that will unlock whatever conflict that she's having, days, weeks after she's like, I don't want advice, I just want to be heard. I'm like, well, I heard, and I gave you great advice. You got the bonus, like I usually charge for this, this is amazing, she's like, absolutely not, that's not what I wanted. So in relationships, we've all had those moments where she's like, you're not listening, he's like, you don't hear me. Well, that's what we're talking about here by this validation. It's not listening to the facts, and a lot of us have a career where we want to be a problem solver, we get paid to solve problems for the company, we get compensated, we get promoted because we solve problems, relationships don't work that way. Well, I think we all like to think and feel that we can think our way through things and fix it, because it's part of our aptitude and all the work that we do to get better with things. And so of course we want to think our way through and see how we can solve the problem. And what happens in that moment is you're taking the spotlight off the other person and putting it right on you. Yes, there you go. Because let me be the therapist, let me be the PhD, I want to step in and I'm going to show you the way. That's the last thing that someone wants to hear. Right, well, and honestly, so one of the last experiences I had that kind of pushed me over the edge to write the book is my brother called me and he was going through a tough time and I thought, okay, I'm going to validate him, I'm going to validate him. And so he starts talking and I, oh, I have the perfect solution, right? That comes to mind, I'm like, oh my gosh, I told him how to fix this. But then I thought, no, I'm going to wait and I'm going to ask if he wants my opinion. So I validate him and then I go, you know what, and I ask him, I say, okay, so what are you going to do about it? And he goes, well, honestly, I'm going to do da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and he just said exactly what I was about to offer as advice. And so I just said, I think that's awesome. You know, and he's like, thanks so much, man, like I feel so much better and we hang up. So more often than not, people already know how to solve their problem. Yeah. They just want you to connect with them. They want you to feel the weight of the situation if it is a problem or they want you to feel excited about it if they're excited about it. And oftentimes just leave it at that. But I do love that then asking, okay, is now a good time for my advice? Is now a good time for my opinion? Are you willing to hear me out instead of just going straight into your opinion and your advice? Sorry, didn't mean to cut you off. Well, is that also with me to ask them and what is your plan? That's fantastic because if they don't have one, well, may I offer and suggest you one? Right. Instead of just coming in, dismissing whatever they were planning to do anyways and saying, you know what, I have the answer. Yeah, and it can be super casual, right? It's just like, oh my gosh, that's crazy. I have a couple of thoughts on it. Do you want to hear them? And most people will say, yeah, sure. And even if they already have stuff in mind, they're suddenly much more receptive to your idea, whether it's a good idea or a bad idea. The fact that you've shown enough respect to say, hey, I'm not just going to assume that you can't fix this and I know what I'm doing. The fact that you've shown that respect and say, hey, do you want my opinion on it? That goes a long way in keeping a strong emotional connection. The other example that I love from the book was the father-son example. Because I feel like either we are parents or we've been on the other end of that, where as a kid, we had something devastating to us. We didn't perform in the big game when we really wanted to and everything was on the line. And we've all had that, well, better luck next time or don't worry about it. But internally, you're like, I am worried about it. I let my teammates down, we lost the game. What are you talking about, Dad? So this also relates to our listeners who have children, understanding that the validation of children is very important. Absolutely, I talk a little bit about that in the book, that all of this, the emotional bids that you guys talk about in validation all centers around emotion, right? We're all human, so we're gonna feel emotion whether we like it or not. And we're gonna feel, quote, unquote, good emotions and bad emotions. But even just labeling it like that is what has really caused a lot of the problems in today's society, right? We're taught from an early age as children that there are certain emotions that are good and certain emotions that are bad, right? It's okay to feel happy and excited. It's not okay to feel angry or bored or frustrated. And so as parents raising children, emotions are especially scary to young children, especially when they're big scary emotions like fear or anger, right? And so the natural response for any parent when a kid comes up and is all scared is to go, oh, don't be scared, you're gonna be fine, right? And the message that we, as the parents and the child is, you shouldn't feel that way. So then the kid goes, oh, okay, well, but I am scared, but don't be scared, right? Or I am angry, well, don't be angry. And that teaches the child to then push it inward. Whereas, if the child's scared, a more validating response would be like, oh my gosh, that is scary, isn't it? Put yourself in the little five-year-old mind. Of course that's terrifying, right? Some mythical example here, but if you can look at your kids and go, I miss mom, yeah, I miss her too. It's so fun when she's around, isn't it? Yeah, it works like a superpower. If your kid is balling frantic, it doesn't just turn it off, but I can tell you from personal experience, it's amazing what validation does from if you're 85 all the way down to five-years-old, just saying, yeah, it makes total sense why you're feeling what you're feeling. The opposite is just as damaging, right? When you invalidate and you label these emotions as negative, then people hide the depression. And it can get to a place where they're near suicidal or they do commit suicide because they have no one to turn to with these quote-unquote negative emotions. So as parents, it's important to validate, allow them to work through the emotions because that creates healthy mental mindsets. So you even go along with that. Not only have we labeled certain emotions bad, we've also tagged a name to them so that if you feel them, then you are this thing. So now that's a double whammy of them. You can't diffuse from them. No. Right, and emotions, when you bury them, they just fester, right? At least negative ones, quote-unquote negative. So there you go, I did it, right? But you bury those and you can't process them and validation, people who wanna process them, they say that or they show you that by offering these emotional bids that we're talking about, right? They say something, even if it's just like, oh, I'm so frustrated and they leave it there. Well, that's them saying, can you ask me about this? Can I share a little more about it? Because I wanna let it go. And if you validate them, if you hold back from the advice, if you say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, that's gotta be so tough, that allows them to start to process those tough emotions. Now, you say there's two core components to effective validation. Can we unpack those a little bit more for the audience? Absolutely. The two parts of it are one, identifying an emotion and two, offering some sort of justification or validation for that emotion. And that sounds very technical, right? So it could be if you go by the book, oh my gosh, we're talking a lot about frustration, but oh, I would be just as frustrated. That right there satisfies both parts of it. Because you know, you're feeling the same frustration they are, so that's justification, right? They look at you going, okay, well, he feels it too. Therefore, I'm not crazy. That's as simple as it is. Identifying an emotion and offering justification. If they're excited, being excited, that justifies how they're feeling. Right. And I'm just thinking back to all the moments where I've had that invalidation and it is incredibly frustrating. It does make those emotions, you hold onto those emotions longer. You can't process them. They're not an outlet and they do fester. Well, think about it as a child, if you're feeling any of the negative emotions, your dad's gonna tell you to grow up and stop feeling that way and your mom's gonna go, oh, I totally understand why you feel like, I'm gonna go hang out with mom. Right. She's also gonna give me cookies, so. Now, I do like this idea around not accepting or having to agree with it, but allowing the validation happen. But a lot of people, when they hear that, they feel that it makes them inauthentic. And it can be difficult to feel authentic when maybe you're not feeling those emotions but you wanna validate someone. So how do you impact that to keep your authenticity? Sure, your spot on, it needs to feel authentic, right? So that's one thing a few people have asked me is, well, isn't this kind of manipulative, right? I mean, you're just trying to make people feel a certain way, absolutely not. People can see right through when you're not connecting with them, when you don't feel what they're feeling. And so it is trickier to validate someone if you don't agree at all and you can't even get in their shoes. And so in the book, I give a few tips on how to feel empathy for the other person if you're struggling with it. In fact, going back to talking about children, one of the most effective, it sounds a little weird, but it's imagining the other person as a young child. So if I take this coworker that we've been talking about, he's in his late 30s, if he's upset or whatever, my initial reaction is, come on, man, get over it. But if suddenly I imagine a little upset five-year-old, I'm a little less inclined to just say, come on, man, get over it, I can at least go, okay, he's trying, he's doing his best or he's scared, he's upset. And so if you can get in the other person's shoes in that way, there's a few other examples, just trying to understand, from their limited perspective, how they're feeling, then it gives you at least enough connection to go, okay, I totally understand why you're frustrated, right? From your perspective, you think that I'm just barging on in here and taking over control. Of course, that'd be frustrating. That right there is validating. And then I can go, so can I share with you my perspective? Also, putting yourself in a position of putting your, well, putting yourself on the line, but not having all the facts of what's going on. Of course you would feel frustrated, of course you would feel fear. Those blank pieces need to be filled in in order for you to feel okay of moving forward, even if it is new territory. Yeah, and again, I keep thinking about all these moments in my life, and I'm like, oh, maybe I do need some therapy for some of this stuff. Based on how many times I've been invalidated in these moments. And when you're on the other end of it and you feel fully heard, you feel that your emotions were at least understood in their place of feeling that frustration, I can understand how that's frustrating. Man, that alleviates a lot of the stress that goes along with relating to one another. I'll tell you what, one of the most powerful, it actually text messages was that I've received about this book is a close friend of mine who read the book on a whim because she's my friend. And we ended up having a three hour conversation on the phone because she said that when she was younger, she went through a very traumatic experience. And all of her family completely invalidated her. Her dad was so scared and didn't know how to handle a situation that, again, he was doing his best, but he just said, it's fine. It's over, it's in the past, don't think about it. And so of course it just drove it all down inside. And she is in her late twenties now. And I think that was 10 years ago and it is still affecting every part of her life. And so she said that when she read the book, she said, oh my gosh, that's what happened. My dad invalidated me, nobody validated me. And so I haven't talked about it with anybody. That's what I need. And so we started talking, I'm no therapist, but I care about it when we started talking. And she said that it completely opened up, like her soul, her heart, when she was able to go back to that situation and her mind to go, oh my gosh, of course I should have felt that way. It was crazy, right? And I was able to validate her and it was amazing to see the healing that started to happen when we were able to go back and revisit it. And there are a lot of moments in our lives where we haven't been in the other person's shoes. And the big one is loss of a family member, loss of someone dear to them. And those are difficult moments, right? You wanna be there for your friend, you wanna support them, but you can't say I know how you feel because you haven't gone through it. So the other thing that the book points out that I love is the honesty component of it. So you don't have to be inauthentic and be like, oh, I totally understand how you're feeling when you haven't been through that level of loss, you haven't gotten that bad medical news. So let's unpack that a little bit more for the audience because I do feel we are so big on being honest as unlocking that authenticity. And in those moments where we're nervous what to say, we can usually say the wrong thing and end up doing more damage. Sure, well, the very first story in my book as you'll remember is I was actually on a date with a woman who, when I first met her, she was bubbly and friendly and I thought, oh, this is great, let's go grab some ice cream. So we get together and she's got total emotional walls up. Like I'm asking her questions and she's like one word answer. No, yeah, and she's kinda looking at the clock and I'm like, what the heck? Like did I miss something here? She's clearly not wanting to be here. And I don't know, like I wasn't taking it personally, so we talked for like 10, 15 minutes and finally I was like, oh, I'm just gonna take you back. You know, like this is fun, you know, whatever. So we're in the car and we start driving and I ask her another question about her family. And then she pauses for a second and she has this energy of, oh, that's a touchy subject. And then on my mind I thought, oh, okay, maybe this isn't about me, maybe there's something here. And she says, well, actually my parents are in the middle of a divorce. And I said, and then that moment, so I have not dealt with divorce. So I couldn't relate, but I could clearly tell she was going through a tough time. And so I said, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And she goes, it's okay, it's fine. You know, it kinda shuts off there because I think she was bracing for advice or bracing for however other people have invalidated her in the past. And so I saw that as an opportunity to validate her. And I said, no, that's not okay, that's not fine. That's gotta be incredibly hard. And she said, actually, yeah, it really sucks. And then she just started to open up. And we talked for like an hour and a half. And one of the first things I said after she had started to kind of divulge this information is I said, look, I'm gonna be honest, I haven't dealt with that. I haven't gone through a divorce. So I can only imagine though, the pain that you're feeling and the despair and the uncertainty. And again, that just like the floodgates opened. And it was powerful to your point, AJ. I think it was more powerful the fact that I was just acknowledged the fact that I didn't know but that I respected the fact that she was going through a tough time. Right, I can't even imagine it's such a powerful phrase when someone is feeling such raw emotions and our first instinct is to comfort them. But we don't have the tools to comfort people in those moments, especially if we haven't experienced them. And the worst thing that you can do is try to be inauthentic. And they're just like, well, you get outta here. I remember when I lost my dad there were so many moments where I grew so frustrated with people because I was being invalidated. And everyone was trying to pretend as if they've been through it, they suffered and they tried to emote in a way that was inauthentic. So allowing yourself to say, I can't even imagine this, but recognizing the emotion and the frustration and the anger and all of those negative thoughts that they're working through can really allow the person a safer space to share and open up more. And going back to that superpower, I mean, these are the conversations that go on for hours. These are the conversations that create lasting relationships, friendships that allow people in your life to feel supported by you. Absolutely, it's powerful. And I think a few things are as invalidating as saying, oh my gosh, I know exactly how you feel, right? Because very rarely, in fact, I argue, you never really know exactly how someone else feels. I mean, if you think you do, it's fine to say, oh my gosh, I went through something similar and you can share that as part of your validation as long as you return the conversation back to them one thing I mentioned in the book is you don't have to be careful to not go, oh my gosh, the same thing happened to me last weekend, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you start talking and suddenly the conversation's all about me, right? And they're like, oh, that's great. So it's fine if you wanna share something, but definitely avoid, I know exactly how you feel, keep it more, I've been through something similar. And then once you finish sharing, return it back to them. And there's a lot of ways you can do that. Oftentimes it's just saying, if I share my story about how it was tough losing my dad, I might go back and say, it's super, super hard, isn't it? And then it gives you a chance to respond and keep talking. And I feel like in my life, I've had a number of moments where I've met other people who've lost parents and it is kinda your first instinct, right? You've come out the other side, you feel like you, okay, now I have my moment to really emote and really connect with this person and it's so easy to take that exit ramp to, okay, now we're gonna talk about AJ and AJ alone and really devastate the other person in that moment where they really need comfort. It's easy to jump into advice, right? Cause suddenly you say, well, I've been there, I can help you. And again, all of this is from good intention, right? Of course you wanna help your friend. But again, the point we argue in the book and the point you guys are arguing with the emotional bid discussions this month is, they don't always want advice, right? They'll come to you if they want advice, right? Now they've just come to you wanting validation, right? Now they've just come to you with a bid. And so if you wanna say, dude, I went through a similar thing, my dad passed away five years ago and you leave it at that, now they at least know that you understand, but you leave it there. And then if they want advice, then they'll say, so what did you do? How did you deal with it? Then you can jump in with that advice, right? Well, I think it's important to remember that everyone processes information uniquely to them. So there's no way other than sharing that experience, you've taken it in a completely different way. You're not gonna be able to exactly know how that person feels. So in order for you to do that, you're gonna need to allow them to talk about it on their terms and through their pros and their experiences. And I will say that in my experience, in the moment where the emotional bid is happening is the moment where people are least likely to want advice. So in those moments where we're offering up advice are far different than, hey, I need your help with this, where they're actively coming to us for the advice. And it's very easy to fall into that trap. Are there other big misconceptions people have around validating and connecting with others in your experience? Sure, the biggest one is definitely, well, I can't validate if I don't agree. A couple others that I talk in the book, one is, well, validation is only for negative emotions. So we've talked a lot about difficult conversations. I think this ties it back in nicely to the first episode you guys had the toolbox episode talking about emotional bids. People come to you just as often with something exciting that they want validation on. And so I talk in the book about how to give validation when it's tough, right? When these difficult conversations, like we've talked about, but it is just as important to give positive validation. And there's, of course, the Gottman research that talks about that. There have been other studies done that demonstrate the importance of responding positively to someone's bid for connection there. And you would think that that would be such a much easier thing to do, but it's just as easily forgotten as validating the negative emotions. I mean, we do it all the time. Yeah, we're always, we talk a lot about this. You have the reference to the iPhone study in the book. We're always so focused inward now with technology and the access to our own story and what's going on in our own lives that oftentimes we miss these positive moments even if they're small in other people's lives and we don't celebrate them. As Dr. Gottman talks about with spouses and being in a relationship with someone, in those moments where you're turning towards each other to celebrate the small win, the small victory in the other person's life, that really creates a solid connection. It's big. In fact, as we're talking about, the very experience that led me to Gottman's research, I think is funny. I won't take too much time on it, but again, I was with a girl that I was dating and we were out walking around and I had something super exciting happen in life. In my life that day. As I was explaining the story to her and I was like all animated, moving my hands around, oh, this was so cool. And I'm talking for like, I don't know, two to three minutes or whatever, explaining this to her. And I finish and she looks over me and she says, cool. And that was it. And she had a smile on her face. She clearly listened to everything that was going on, but I remember looking at her and I was like, that's it? Surely you're gonna say something else. That can't just be where you leave it. And then she looked at me seeing that expression on my face and said, what? Like, what more do you want? And I was like, I don't know what I want, but I want something like I was hoping that you get excited about me here or something. And so that was ultimately where I went back home. And I was like, what? Then I start scrolling through Facebook and then I come across an article that cites Dr. Gottman's research. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I wanted validation. I wanted her to respond positively and to share in my excitement. You know, it goes with experience that I had in my twenties was the only time that I had seen a therapist was in my twenties. And there was two that I had seen and one had moved away. So I had to, I went to her recommended substitute. And the first therapist that I had, I really enjoyed her. She validated everything. And I only know this after reading this today. It was like, this is why. And so when she had moved away, I went to the next lady who was, it was gonna be my therapist. And we didn't click at all. And I just didn't like her. And in fact, I had quit after a few sessions. And I was just telling the story in Chicago, but to me, I just felt like as I unleashed, as I just started speaking, she just sat there judging me. That's like how I felt. However, I don't really remember doing anything that felt judging. It was just that she didn't say anything after I unloaded. There was no validation good or bad for anything that I had said. So I'm, and then of course, after saying all this, I'm looking for anything and I didn't get it. So of course, I immediately jumped to, she's just judging me. And in terms of therapy, we can see how much damage that did. I'm still scared from it to this day. Now, is there a point where there's too much validation for your own good? I know we kind of talked about this a little bit earlier. A lot of our audience is worried about being too nice and being walked all over and being too agreeable. And in that situation, we're so cautious of being too nice that we miss out on the moments to validate. So in your mind, is there too much validation possible? You know, I like that question because my short answer is no, I don't think there is, but validation, I call it a skill because that's what it is. I really like to call it a tool, right? It's fitting, we talk about toolbox, but it's a tool to be used, but tools work often best when you have other tools and other things to help. And so I think you got to pair that with boundaries, right? And that's probably a topic for a whole other podcast, but of course, you got to be able to set some boundaries. You got to be able to speak up. You know, you got to be able to say, hey, I would love to talk about this. I am distracted with work right now. Can we talk later tonight? I mean, there's certainly a need for boundaries to kind of structure those connections. But by and large, I don't think that inherently you can validate too much. I just think you have to be careful. You have to learn how to stick up for yourself and to set expectations. I completely agree with the boundaries which I think that's the backbone of where all those things sit, of going too far or going being too agreeable. Now, we are all about practical advice and we've delved deeply into emotional bids and validation, this concept, but you have this amazing four step process. I'd love for you to walk us through so that our listeners can take this validation concept and put it into practice and start achieving these results. Sure, sure. The four step method, as I call it in the book, because I couldn't think of a better way to say it. I don't love it, but it works. It's just something that I tried to distill it down to actionable items, right? Something that you could do. So I looked at literally thousands of conversations in my own, you know, the five years or so that I was working through therapy, other guys that I was working with. And I distilled it down to really these four steps, if you will. And you can use them loosely, but I'll go over them high level and then we can dive into them if you want. So the first step is to listen empathically, right? Both of you guys already talked about that. You gotta hear what they're sharing and you gotta understand, you gotta feel what they're feeling. So you have to have that empathy through there. So listen empathically, then validate the emotion, like we've been talking about. Then the third step is to offer advice or feedback if it's appropriate. So when I say appropriate, you either need to ask permission to give advice or it won't be appropriate because they're sharing an exciting thing about them. And then it feels weird to go, dude, that's so cool, do you want my advice? So third step is to offer feedback or advice. And then the fourth is to validate again, which sounds kind of like, oh, that's a nice fourth step, but it's big, right? If someone's sharing something with you to first listen empathically, then validate the emotion, then give feedback or advice and then wrap it all up with validation at the end to just say, hey, you know what? Thanks for coming in here and sharing that. I appreciate that. I know that's tough. That helps round out the experience and close off that connection really well. And oftentimes in those moments, it's easy to miss the first validation for the other person because they're just like, I got to get this off my chest. I've been holding onto this. It's pent up. And the second validation, as you said, not only wraps it up nicely, but it really reinforces for the other person that I was heard and on a level that is meaningful to them. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And this method, again, it sounds complicated, especially of our podcast, but you can go through it in 30 seconds, right? You can listen in five seconds. You can go, oh my gosh, I can't believe you said that. And then you can ask if they want your advice and they say no, and you do good luck with that, man, that's tough. It can happen that quickly, but if you want to really dive into it and really refine that skill of validation, those four steps I find boil it down. And let's refine the skill for the audience. So as they're working on this, they're going out and applying this, how can we know whether we've effectively validated someone or not? Are there signals you're looking for to allow you to feel like, okay, now I know I'm improving, my validation's getting better? Absolutely. You're going to know it's working if they continue to open up to you, if they continue to share. The clearer example is when it's not working, they're going to get defensive. They're going to just kind of shut down and like, no, don't worry about it. They're going to close off. And if they close off, if they get defensive, if they go, well, I know, but I know, but, then you're not validating them. You're invalidating them. And you got to take a step back and go, okay, do I feel what they're feeling and have I showed them that I feel what they're feeling? And are there daily habits or rituals that you use to reinforce this skill, to strengthen the skill set in your own life? Sure, I mean, truthfully it's trial and error, right? I mean, that's where a lot of it's come from. I told you that just last week I jumped straight to advice with my girlfriend. So I am far from perfect. I don't know if I'll ever be perfect. And so just having the awareness around it, I think is a big part. One of the other tips that I talk about in the book is it is important to learn to recognize emotion. And I find that a lot of us have a hard time recognizing our own emotions. Again, we talked about how a lot of that's invalidated in our society, right? Don't feel this way, don't feel that way. And so I've had found it valuable just myself to kind of check in with myself for once in a while and go, how am I feeling right now? You know, and probably say, I'm good, but push a little deeper. What does good mean? Cause good isn't an emotion. That's just how I'm labeled in the emotion. So I go, well, I'm happy, right? That's an emotion. Or I'm ticked off at my coworker. That's an emotion, right? So the better you can get at recognizing your own emotions, naturally you're going to become more empathic to the people around you. And we love journaling here as a practice in our audience. If you haven't bought a journal already, you've probably stopped listening. I find that if you can journal not only about your own thoughts and emotions, but the people that matter to you, the people's relationships that you're investing in. So take a tally, pay attention to their emotions. I'm more in tune with Amy's emotions now than before. It's so easy to, you know, get lost in social media and my own emotions. So I find that the daily journal practice, the gratitude journal, talk about what you're grateful for and then just doing a survey of the people in your life in their emotional state will allow you to pay closer attention in these moments. This is a bit of a personal question for you. I get this a lot from Amy. You teach about emotional bids. How are you so bad at this? Is there an answer that you have that can help validate her and her frustration with me? I would say, Angie's human. We're all human, right? I can understand how you're frustrated with me, Amy. Yeah, yeah. It's funny though, because it just is, you know. I think at the end of the day, that's all anybody can expect from people is to keep working on it, right? And anybody listening to this podcast clearly is wanting to get better at their relationships, to get better at their communication skills. And so I would hope that Amy, I have not talked with AJ in the time when he's been down to me, but it would be frustrating if you're coming to him with complaint and all he's doing is trying to fix it. Well, thank you for putting a good word in for me with Amy. I appreciate it. But I like him. Obviously she likes you. What's the best place for our audience to find the book and find more information around validation? Books available on Amazon. It's paperback, Kindle, audio book, however you like to listen to it. It's called I Hear You, a surprisingly simple skill behind extraordinary relationships. And you can reach out to me directly, Michael, at IHearYouBook.com or find me on LinkedIn. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Michael. This was great, Johnny. Yes, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for the time, guys. Absolutely.