 and then um let me email them to you. Sorry Amber. No I'm just again going back and forth from in office. No I know um I leave things on my office computer. I'm finally starting to sync things but this has been a really long day. I know. Didn't mean in person. It's just it's been a long year everyone I know is like cooked baked like well the problem is I've just been in like I've been on like meetings since like eight or nine I just can't and half of the time I've been multitasking like as I'm taking notes for one meeting somebody's emailing me urgent things that they need right away. Yeah you know Tracy if you if you participate in enough meetings you can avoid work all together. Well actually so one thing I've been doing I've been we lost somebody in our office and so there's trainings that we do a lot for like mass DOT and other training. I went to one today on complete streets and public engagement yay um but there were also someone works on training but some of them are actually literally like the same training over and over and there's like a live presenter who gets no feedback from the audience and just talks. Anyway it's crazy. Okay I found it. Okay there we go um. Hang on hang on are we recording we need to record. Yeah she started. She started already. Pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12 2020 orders suspending certain provisions provisions of the open meeting law general law chapter 30a section 18 this meeting of the TAC is being conducted via remote participation. The meet this meeting is being recorded to the web and will be shown could be shown on Amherst media broadcast as the town of Amherst YouTube channel and we're recording to the cloud is that correct Amher. Okay so the TIC is call to order and I should remind people who are dialing in are there anyone I can't I'm not sure no okay so then I go attendees yeah okay great so this meeting is called to order and um yeah so I discussed with Aaron earlier today he's still not feeling really great and up to par he feels a little better in the mornings but I think the evenings aren't so great for him um and so he requested that I um I do this and we on Monday he realized he just couldn't do it so um so I put an agenda together very ad-hot because it needed to get done and so um uh so there are a few things that had been called to my attention the first um thank you um Darcy for um uh coming everyone got the um the notice from the they the TSO sent us um the um disabilities access advisory committees very um thoughtful and complete um memo that about the um Pomeroy intersection and um they the TSO was wondering if we had any um if we wanted to add or you know just take a look at this letter and see if there was anything that we wanted to any other input we wanted to give them so um I got um I I should tell you that I did talk with Aaron about this earlier and um today and he was very um keen on also um um just reading through this because you know there there are very thoughtful committee too and certainly this is some these are things that we are very acutely aware of and one thing that he suggested which I thought was um perhaps not really indicated in our initial letter was the idea that um the crosswalks in a um roundabout can be set back where um further from the intersection so we don't have to that was something he was just discussing with me so I'm bringing that to you um and perhaps something we want to discuss or reiterate versus um signalized crossings where the where the um the pedestrian crosswalks are you know right next to the where people are making decisions about traffic that's coming through so um but I'm you know up for discussion and if we want to comment at all on this um we can either yep um make um some suggestions or clarifications I think and we could do that now or we could put on the agenda for a later meeting I think too next meeting um it's up to us floor is open Tracy you have the first comment um a couple things is one I realized in reading through the letter um the memo that we sent again yes um to TSO that there were there's at least like one major well it seems pretty major in my mind that we left out and I guess if we do have comments if we did want to amend that as well as any additional comments I might suggest that we just submit an amended version of our memo to TSO because I'm afraid if we have like multiple versions and like for example the council will be reviewing I know Darcy at TSO meeting she had talked about contacting all the council members and they had talked about sharing the you know wealth of information that they've been receiving about roundabouts and feedback and so on um with the council so I think it would be nice for it to be all in one document and not spread across different documents and so on so the one thing that got left out and I know we talked about it um at the our meeting so I apologize that it didn't make it into the final draft was just to emphasize that um if if there is going to be an enhanced signalized intersection there should be no right turns on red oh somehow that is not in there and I would really like to emphasize that it needs to be in there for pedestrian safety yeah um the other thing is that we did put um we did talk about for roundabouts about setting back the crosswalks from the intersection to minimize pedestrian conflicts I don't I don't think you know we drew a direct comparison with the like the standard signalized intersection but I think most people understand that those crosswalks are right at the intersection and there was actually some discussion at the TSO meeting um where Guilford I mean maybe Guilford can recap it too but he was talking about the number car lengths they try to set back the um crosswalks at roundabouts I think like one and a half car lengths or something one car length oh somebody had suggested one and a half and you suggested one and we've been doing we've been doing one we could move back a little bit more if we want to I mean I I think from a navigational standpoint it can be confusing if it gets moved back too far because then people don't know where to look for it particularly you know if you're visually impaired or blind or something so it's good to keep it but it but it is good to do it before like there's all the merging lanes and so on so and the other thing I really like with the pedestrians and then you worry about oncoming traffic yeah the other thing I really like about the roundabout crosswalks like the ones that we have on at the north end of campus and triangle street is that they do have like the different pavement material for the crosswalks to delineate them that way so one thing that Myra Ross has mentioned to me is that it's actually really difficult to navigate some of the downtown intersections that have the like all pedestrians go at the same time because there's no differentiation and the pavement and so if you have the traffic going one direction first and the traffic in the other direction they can navigate if you're blind you can navigate off of the traffic because you know where to go but if you have like a all pedestrians go at the same time and no traffic you don't unless you have that pavement differentiation there's it's really difficult to navigate great for her from her perspective it's very difficult so that makes sense to me yeah um Bruce oh yes I was going to make the same point as Tracy that uh I I knew we had talked about placing the crossings a little bit farther away from the roundabout and I had mentioned that it's an example not only the one at the north end of the university campus but also look park because I use that one frequently as a biker and I bike in the pedestrian lane rather than on the road and I've always felt very safe there cars seem to have lots of time to see me I've never felt any sense of danger there when I crossed great um oh sorry Kim go for it no no please um I sent out a two links just now yet more google you know science thing um I was wondering if Tracy you might be able to look in UMass for the paper I sent oh I sure uh because it's a trb thing but they you know say you can find it somewhere so is it actually like a trb presentation no no no yeah it was my well no so it used to be trb is a huge um transportation meeting every year in dc it has like 10 to 15 000 participants and they used to publish all the proceedings but now they only they don't publish it unless it's actually ends up in the journal of record which doesn't happen with about with about 80 percent of the presentations that's why I'm asking but um right I saw that you sent that link and I didn't know what it was and I didn't open it yet but I can look for that paper yeah yeah thank you because it it's um so I just I thought well why don't I look at the institute given that the other links I sent earlier today um that were from uh Washington state DOT right that uh referenced the insurance institute for highway safety I just thought we'll look at what they got first on their web page on their front page they have a specific section for roundabouts and they have a specific call out for uh pedestrian safety and roundabouts and just to the points made in the uh memo I think need some clarification and I think that say this or some of the other things that I've sent out would be very useful to to um clarify what was put in that uh memo so yeah I'm done now sorry thank you sorry um so the question is for I posed to you is like and maybe I should ask Darcy Darcy what would you like for us to do exactly um I had heard from from Tracy that you might want to amend your report okay it's it's fine if you want to do that um the the time manager today asked to extend our decision making to the May 6th meeting we thought we were going to make our our recommendation at the next meeting on April 22nd but um it looks like the time manager wants more time to answer the remaining questions that we put out and um also to get uh all the outreach to businesses and abutters finalized they're going to have the pop-up meeting on the 17th and I think they'll be able to report um at least informally about the results of that meeting on the 22nd but the time manager wanted more time to make sure that we got everything back from the businesses and the abutters um so it looks like we're going to do that um extend it to the 6th um I'm sorry extended to which date I'm sorry to May 6th okay okay come back to the council at the town council's May 17th meeting and when the council president was fine with that um it takes up an awful lot of meeting time by extending it enough another meeting but I guess we're just going to talk about it some more yeah that's what I was going to ask like are you going to have a lengthy discussion I think it was your whole meeting almost right the last TSO meeting last week and yeah you thought that it was still going to be the predominant topic at your next week meeting the 22nd uh it looks like it's going to be because we don't have anything else on the agenda and we put off what we were going to have on the agenda to the following meeting and now what we might do is interestingly we're we all love the tech memo and like the way it is set out and so thank you for that um and you know we are you know we may be talking about like what is the form of the motion that we're eventually going to be using for our recommendation and um from what I can tell from the other members they like the format of the of the tech recommendations um and all the all the sub recommendations and so on so I'm I'm guessing that we're going to be talking about that at our meeting on the 22nd too so thank you so so potentially then um updating our our letter maybe help help you more especially in response to the the recent um disability committee um memo so perhaps that's something I I would suggest that we kind of work on it like we did the last time um kind of make some updates edits Tracy does this sound good to you yeah I mean I guess so I wanted to go ahead end it around and then submit it over to them or we alternatively we can put it on the agenda for the the letter on the agenda for the next meeting because it sounds like they will have enough time yeah I mean I think I mean I my tendency would be I didn't hear too many changes that we want to make um like I do want to add the right turn on red piece and we can just emphasize the the setting the cross box back which I think we already it's already in there but we can yeah emphasize it and I'm looking at Marcus's paper right now but the um I mean my tendency would just be to submit what we have I mean I do think that it is possible that there will be like additional feedback from the community and from other committees and so on but it seems I wouldn't I wouldn't expect that we'd want to change very much in our memo and I think as a council starts the whole council starts to review it I guess I'd like to them to just see what one thing I would suggest potentially for the memo is that we kind of make the recommendation after a lot of the the points we might want to just kind of rejig how we set it out so we we come out with the recommendation and the points are supporting that recommendation rather than here's a whole bunch of points and then very deep in there is the recommendation just so we can kind of bring it out because I think that's something that will probably end up you know if the town council is going to use that that would probably be the way that they would use it anyway well I guess so my suggestion with that then would be that we take another vote now like that everybody's here because we took a vote with only with some members missing um the other the other thing was I mean I I felt like you know our role is to be advisory and not to tell the council what to do and so that was one reason when I was drafting when I did my draft of the memo that I structured it to put our vote at the end and we just said if you choose option A like please consider the following and these are our recommendations and if you choose option B please consider the following these are our recommendations and by the way we did vote but we want you to in either case whatever you do like we want you to focus on these bigger pictures of the safety and that's why I structured it the way I did just because we're just advisory we're not like ordering the council to do it yeah so I yeah it seems like I mean this is since Tracy's perhaps since Tracy's writing the memo she's done all the work we'll let her have that and and and at some level I also agree with you Tracy it seems like more subtle and like more advisory to kind of just put that at the end so great okay so then we will just amend it and minor amends and then send so you have it for your next meeting Darcy and you can do with it as you will great thank you one thing I'm sorry can we just before we move on one I mean can we take that's a second vote again but then also so one thing that the disability access advisory committee brought up in their memo is the idea of having review later in the project and I think I mean I so when we took the initial vote you know some people voted for it and I abstained and the reason I abstained is because I think you know in terms of how safe an intersection is or like so much of it matters on the details of like how it's implemented and how the details are designed and it's much more than is it a signalized intersection or is it a roundabout right because you could have issues with either those and either those can be rarely well designed and so it's a I mean it's a little hard night this has come up at some of the meetings it's a little hard to decide how much somebody likes one project or the other when we there's so many pieces we don't know right until you actually see the 25 percent design or 50 percent design and so on but so I mean I don't know if that would be something that we'd want to incorporate in our I mean we did say again because we're an advisory committee I didn't want to say you have to send it back to us for more advice but we could say we could say we hope that we can be part of the you know process as the yeah I think design is more advanced because those details really matter so much so yeah I think we can also put in that we hope that they focus on these elements right so that we don't necessarily have to have our fingers in the pie all the way through if we set out our expectations or set out the way that we expect that we would suggest that the town has expectations for you know these elements we don't necessarily need to have our fingers in the pie all the time but because these continual you know go backs to people and change design changes are just going to increase the cost of the project so we have to balance that ability to change direction at any point with the you know the also the desire that we heard at many of these town meetings to keep the costs down to stay within the budget that we have and some they aren't exactly mutually exclusive so well and just one other point on that I would just I mean I would say and particularly as I've been attending these classes about public engagement and public involvement in transportation planning and decision making processes that you know public engagement is not just like one point in time right I think that's what the disability access advisory committee was trying to say too that you know you it is appropriate to involve you know advisory committees or the public at different stages as well as even after the project is completed to see if it's working as people expected or if it needs any retrofitting or if there's any issues and so on so like with that in mind I think we could add a little bit of language on that but I mean those are best practices if that's the model that Amherst wants to follow. So I'm sorry Bernie so we could potentially and I'll get to you we could potentially add that into our memo that those are the best practices and that we would be happy to advise once the you know 50 percent whatever whatever the different projects are and that's it Bernie. No that's pretty much what I was going to say and I just point out that the committee is available to to offer guidance or suggestions at any point in the design process and let them know and you know and I think you know the observation that public involvement public engagement in a process like this is is ongoing is a good one including a hot wash at the end and how did everything go how did everything work does it is doing what we said it was going to do. Okay so I have two questions one is a bit of a technical question so the disability access advisory committee said that they wanted to review the project at the 50 percent design and I know for the like the mass DOT processes that I'm most familiar with it's usually like the 25 percent design and then sometimes they come back later so I don't know if Gilford or what what are the DPWs practices about in terms of sharing and at what point is the design shared with the public. DPW does not subscribe to anything you guys just talked about. Okay we do not share with anybody you decide to do it we plan it we do it it's done but I thought that's what we've done in the past I mean I thought isn't that I mean we'll bring it we'll bring it back a little bit probably it's seven closer to 75 than 25 so there'll be a 75 and then we'll have most right our information together and then we'll be done for 100 after that. Well so I mean the why why do you think that disability access advisory committee mentioned the 50 percent I never heard of that but I've never heard it either but you also have to remember we're up against the deadline for money so oh right we have to be we have to spend all the moolah by the 22 2023 yeah and remember Rome Rome collapsed one of the reasons Rome collapsed was what you just talked about well yeah so then I just have just one other like housekeeping question is if I am revising the memo from the earlier version if I send it to people as track changes or something or is that okay with people okay I mean I just wanted to make sure everybody was okay with that yeah that way you can just see what's actually changed. So in the past Guilford has put projects similar to this up on the website and I wondered if he had planned to do that this time you have a section on your DPW website about projects maybe it's engineering projects or something like that so that might be a way of having people have an opportunity to see what's being proposed without actually having a meeting. Christine there's also the engagement website that this project's already up on but there isn't a lot of information for so maybe I think that informing that website rather than going somewhere else might be the best way to do that because I think a lot of the comments that are made in that forum need some additional material provided to actually you know help people realize what's going on so I think I agree let's put more information out there but maybe target it at the existing engagement area for people that should be kind of looking to go to there anyway. That's the town manager's goal with that engage thing is that we start pushing things out in those engage sections and then you can make comments there. That seems very useful too as long as it gets done in a kind of a timely way right. One thing Tracy as we look through this do we want to call out any specifics from the memo that we want to address in our thing are there any in our thing in our memo in our memo amended amend yeah should we amend or call out specifically maybe make more make more aware but anyway you know highlight more oh are you are you referring to the disability access advisory committee yes as we are taking the steps to amend our memo to include you know the right channel red part I'm wondering if there aren't any specifics in the disability access committee's memo that we shouldn't you know key in on in our memo as well. Do you have suggestions Marcus? I think that there are certainly some areas in there that need some addressing things like the blanket statements in here such as safety data isn't conclusive I think we need to you know bring to people's attention that that that there is plenty of safety data out there specifically and including you know roundabout safety that for pedestrians I think that the comments in here that say that rearing collisions are more common in roundabouts might well is true except for the fact that overall collisions are far less at roundabouts but just the way that things have been stated in this makes roundabout sound like they are less safe. Well I think that when I mean there's a few points so I think it is common in Guilford had actually mentioned I guess at the TSO meeting that you know that there could be more rearing collisions at roundabouts but I think a key difference is that the collisions are low speed collisions and they're not high speed collisions. Well the key difference as well is that overall the number of collisions at an intersection are higher than at roundabouts. I mean specific type of collisions which is rear end is potentially higher and yes the speed at which and the damage done by is also I mean is lower so yeah. I mean and in terms of the intersection data which was presented at I mean the intersection crash data that was presented at the TSO meeting right that the Pomoy village intersection it has like t-bone crashes and red light crashes like and a lot of those are more serious crashes I mean so I think we can add data I mean I'm a data person I can make the memo as long as people I mean we can put in all kinds of facts and links and things I didn't want to overwhelm people with that but we can add some of that I was trying to keep it like a reasonable length right right and oh sorry sorry yeah no I think I mean just like a simple graph that we can source out of you know something well you had sent a link I did yeah yeah that that that graph is pretty simple and I think it might be quite useful Tracy you're muted I'm saying we can even include like links to references right I mean over I mean I've shared references with TSO and so on I mean we can include like a whole page of references if we want only one page Tracy so I think but I think having like a you know a cited like particularly that the data supporting the idea that safety is is enhanced by the roundabouts is useful right but I do like in this memo you know calling out specifically the need for lighting assistance to crossings and yeah we there are also papers out there on visually impaired use of roundabouts that specifically for you know the types of lighting assistant right assistance and things like that just adding a bit more data to this sure rather than kind of a sweeping statements would certainly help of course I mean I mean I do have some of those references I can add some of them okay I mean there's some great guidance there's some great guidance on accessibility and roundabouts so if you need anything I mean all I've done is just like Google stuff so but I can send you what I have I think I have plenty of reference I have I have at least a couple pages of references but okay but I'll just throw that in the back so it seems to me that what's called out in the disability access memo for crosswalk design all just about all of those can be met in terms of crosswalk design with roundabouts you know especially the the addition of a splitter island you know there's nothing there's nothing that they've listed that can't be replicated in terms of a crosswalk here yeah and a roundabout so I think their point about the data being inconclusive and they could have said more on that but I think what they would say is that and I mean even I have looked at this in terms of when we're working on complete streets and traffic calming and so on is that just because there's not any crashes or injury like doesn't mean that something is safe it could also mean that people are avoiding the area and so I think that's what the disability access advisory committee writes in their memo right that the and they even people come to their meetings from the Massachusetts commission for the blind to do travel training for people where they tell they say that they tell people to avoid roundabouts especially the triangle roundabout so just because there's no crashes there doesn't mean it's safe for them and so I think that's where they're trying to say that the data is inconclusive but to Marcus's point overall the data does show that the roundabouts are safer right and Bernie you'd mentioned the insurance companies like roundabouts because you have lower speed crashes you have less fatalities less injuries less property damage it's all good overall so yeah I think I think concerns when we were listening into the district five meeting was that all sounds like people talking about cars right everyone talks about roundabouts in terms of cars it's implied or it's implicit in those statements that you know pedestrians are going to be safer too because everything's at lower speeds and all this sort of stuff but when we talk about things we tend to talk about them in terms of cars and so people get the the impression or they they take the understanding that you know the focus is on the car it's not about the pedestrian it's not about the pedestrian at all which is you know far from it given where these traffic management you know systems and not sorry going back to work stuff traffic management implementations are positioned in the communities you know not not necessarily in the US but in the rest of the world they're very much part of a an urban environment and a pedestrian environment so it's an implicit part of it but it's something that we probably need to you know pull out more and talk about more than for everyone to kind of understand so in conclusion of this discussion we're going to amend our memo slightly and potentially include some more safety references potentially addressing some of the issues in that were brought out from the disabilities advisory committee memo great and then you'll send those around to us and we'll forward it on to the TSO right so so we can have the same earlier process that we had last time where i circulate a draft and then i guess what's our time frame do we want to distribute do we want to go to TSO before the TSO is meeting on the 22nd i think that would be good okay for that to have and then they have you know they can use it for that meeting right for the final okay so i'll um i'll amend it like by the weekend and then we want to follow the same procedure where people can then send the edits to kim and kim can start do the final version yeah and do we want to take another vote now that we're all here oh yes that's right would we like to know that we have um okay so um except for erin we're still missing erin so i mean we could not take another mode i don't know yeah no it's fine yeah okay um okay so i think that's all is anyone else have any other announcements sorry kim i would can we take another vote because kind of just like three people in favor doesn't sound the best um if we're trying to push the points in our memo i think it would be good for us to you know vote as everybody bar erin would be just sure okay let's do that okay so who would like to make um the proposal or whatever can i i'll make the the tack recognize the need for upgrade and will support either of the town's choices that said we the tack support the pomeroy village intersection being redesigned as a roundabout with pedestrian activated accessible crosswalk lights um that are set back uh by at least one car length second all those in favor hi that's the unanimous six zero uh one five two zero sorry five five five we only have five we're missing a person five five minus amber thank you great so um fantastic sorry kim crazy do you want me to write down what i said yes could you please just send that to me yeah because i updated what i did and so marcus i was just looking for your article it's from 1994 um so there is like newer data yeah i'm having a little trouble getting it but anyway okay no no no if you've got something better that's awesome sure thanks okay um and if there are no other announcements and i don't believe there are any other public members here um i think and i think we just pretty much finished the recap of the tso meeting on the eighth did you want to say anything else about that meeting other than um and darcy kind of um hinted at that that our memo is highly regarded and whatever um i felt like um you know there was a that for me it was it was very nice because you know at least our hard work was recognized too at some level which is great um and um then we can kind of check we did that and then hopefully we will um look uh you know we'll be asked to look at the 75 thing and we can voice our opinion about that so i'm glad that that all of our hard work was recognized and appreciated um i think is does anybody want to add anything else okay um and i'm not sure what number five is for recap of major intersection decision considerations was that this one i think that's what that was so we can move on to the next one which is um and maybe perhaps um chris chris you can um just talk about this a little more you sent this uh there's a new proposed pbta route from amherst to wuster which seems fantastic to me i couldn't access the article that was um because i i don't know i wasn't a member of the newspaper or something um is there anything you wanted to add uh and and and chris um we got the email came from brian i maybe you can recap chris and did you guys send that email to other people too and a link about the pbta service i probably sent it to all the planning department staff and to gilford and and you all um yeah i haven't seen it did any other track oh i did i thought i had forwarded it i might have missed it but i just saw it on math slides website or something it was just a link i mean all because because part of it was a link to a newspaper article that i couldn't access um and the other link was to there's a public meeting and i can send this to everyone um i can forward this to the rest of the members about um a public meeting on that new route that starts in amherst and ends in wuster um and it stops it said it stops in town centers in between as well it's basically following route nine okay yeah i don't really have any more information than was in that article but i thought it was important for you all to see that and if you wanted to express your support um yeah and i feel like we would be silly not to do that one question i did have was whether this is in lieu of the you know in lieu of proposed rail service which was a little disconcerting to you know the idea that we'd get this bus instead of and and not get i you know i think it's more from springfield to wuster but still like that seems to be a much i don't know more hotly contest contested kind of and obviously much more expensive project but um do you have any idea yes i don't just one thing no the the rail service is uh not in lieu of this okay great the rail service is uh being kind of worked i think on the federal level okay yeah i just had a question if chris knew if this bus would ultimately as one of the stops link up with the rail station in wuster because then there is service to boston i believe that was that was going to yeah that would be a pretty slow way to get to boston but you could do it right well so there there was a service a few years ago it actually went through like a lot of hill towns and so on and me entered around and then it made its way to boston i think it took like a lot of hours if you went away to boston but it actually was covered i don't know how that worked um i guess i had one question about jurisdictionally like how many different transit agencies this involves like i know there used to be a route i'm not sure if it still runs between like um a long route two like where it would go from the frta and then it would go into wister county is that right the next county over um and that so it's just like a little complicated like in terms of who's running the route and who's finding the route and there was one thing i noticed because because you know because they weren't saying the they were saying mbta does that make more sense mass transit oh and and there was another service that was in there so it wasn't necessarily the i don't think it was the pbta and there was somebody well there's like mart mart is one monarchy said area regional transit there's a you know a number of regional transit agencies but there wasn't it was another service that i was not familiar with that seemed to also be providing part of this route i i'm not sure but um perhaps we should get some more information about that and then um potentially send a letter so um will i'll i'll do that but you know we're obviously our our committee is is excited for any more public um transportation that links us our town to um other towns east of us so um and so and it's great to hear that there might be another you know a bus line which is well that actually brings me to the question about i know that we've been hoping for somebody from the pbta um or dug slaughter who's on the pbta board to come to one of our meetings and give you updates and in terms of how the pbt is doing financially particularly with covid and the drop in ridership and if it's threatening any other routes or anything i'd i'd love to get an update on that so it was really helpful when he came last time yeah i agree yep um okay sorry i'm just taking notes on that um and um i think that so so i guess we'll table this until we get more information but thank you chris for bringing that to our attention um and um i think one thing before we get into the um the uh pedestrian and bike plan which was i was hoping we could make a big push on that tonight one thing that i in reviewing our notes from the um last meeting we had talked about um and it is on this meeting's list the prioritization plan idea of um uh static projects being put the project list being put on the website and i'm wondering if we've um updated if we've we mean in gilford um has made any progress on that because i haven't um but i mean we kind of tabled that discussion at the end of the last meeting because we were we were getting over time and i'm just curious if um if you have any updates on that because because we also i think we weren't sure which list to put up and whether that was appropriate so i'd love to hear a little more on what you think of the matter gilford i know i didn't prep you on this so i pretty much wasn't going to post my list um but erin wanted to realign the list that you guys have all your stuff on the all the all the um the bigger list you have which has what people submitted requests for he kind of wanted to have wanted to have that read kind of configure and use that list but see it seems like so that isn't that the list that like any request that comes in is on that list is that the list but it seems like from a public perspective as well as like i know you're going to hire the consultant to work on the complete street plan that in terms of like knowing what the priority projects are for funding i mean the list of like everything that everybody's ever wanted in terms of bike and ped and transportation improvements like not all of those are going to happen like in for a pretty long time frame so the priority list seems way more important i know that that's and people have emailed me too just asking about different projects if there is something that we can share run it by the tack i mean run it by the tso and share but my my list is a working list and it changes and i move things around right so it's not it's not a priority list which is really what i was hoping is when we get through with the prioritization there is a list but you can take the list of your submittals and and do i mean that would be fine with me but my list has stuff not on your list because they're bigger projects that came from different places and then they get dropped and moved and stuff because i'm told to do that that's a work that's my working list but doesn't that don't we have a list that has like the top like five or ten projects that are being pursued for funding no type list i thought we did so i want to give it a join i'd like to talk about the pomegranate intersection as an example of this an opportunistic thing you have something in your mind you know that work needs to be done in some part of town um a grant opportunity comes along and you jump on it and it's not necessarily something that was on the top of the tax list or the top of gilford's list or the top of the town council's list it's just things come together at a certain time it's serendipity is that what they call it yep just say okay let's go for it and you get the money and you do the project and so having a list with priorities is a good idea but it's not necessarily something that you're going to really stick with or follow you know but so but when the town is preparing that complete streets plan like my understanding was there was going to be a list of say like 20 to 30 projects on that and that are going to have like cost estimates built out um and that i know like eve and i had talked with uh jeff mccullough at the pinearelle planning commission he was talking about some towns that have submitted complete streets plans that have say up to like 70 50 or 75 projects on them and um and that as long as it's on the list then it's eligible for funding so we don't have to have a super short list but well you're mixing we're mixing things up here the priority this complete street priority list is that and if the town makes one that would be public information and i hate to say jeff's wrong but just because it's on the list doesn't mean it's just because it's on the list means it's eligible for funding and just because it's not on the list doesn't mean it's eligible for funding there's so much funding out there something can be done because because someone has money and they decide they want to build a sidewalk and they want to name it uh arthur b swift sidewalk or something um so i mean the priority if we go through the complete street program there'll be a product that will give you that complete street prioritization list and that'll be the official list um but i'll still have a working list and i'll have a working document that i used as my stuff um so we're getting there but we're not there is what i guess i'm trying to say so unless you want to unless you want to take there uh some middles to you and use that for a a baseless to start with so i guess i guess i'm i'm i'm just not very savvy so i'm gonna i'm gonna reinterpret what just happened so i can really make sure that i understand um the point that you're making which um so i mean we all know that there are lots of projects that we have in town and we kind of have our favorites um and um obviously all of them can't get funded and um we're not really in a position to actually prioritize them because we don't have an actual prioritization scheme quite yet and and gilford and and um yet we and and we don't necessarily and this is where i want clarification because again i'm just being i just don't understand um we don't necessarily want to prioritize things at the moment either and maybe you gilford don't want to publish your list because then it might lock you into a certain you know someone could make an argument that wait you put that number one yet we're doing number six um and that might be an an issue for you us as a i don't know as a body as a body that needs to represent the people i'm not quite sure but is that the point that we do kind of have a priority but we don't want to necessarily like publish that because then it might hold us to hold us accountable somehow and that's okay i totally get that because also money is shifting around right and like you like you said you said i mean so i'm just trying to clarify that's one way to say it okay that's fine okay i mean so i do have a question i mean it has been our this has been our goal is to i mean and ever since i've been on this committee this is something that gilford has you know he's made it inherently clear that that's our job like that was our number one job is to help him prioritize um these things because he doesn't want to have to justify his private favorite projects or whatever and that's pretty much been what he he's been telling us all along so um yes does anyone else have a comment on that i mean we can get our head with our work and then we can we can make that actual prioritization list that we can actually put on our website so i mean we have had a few times right conversations about i always think of them as like two lists maybe that's not the right way to think about it but there was a list of of sort of like more like larger scale projects um and i remember actually went through the longer list maybe the list that erin's talking about and we we identified sort of clusters of ideas like for example along 116 and like like other areas that we knew that there were going to be like a number of places that the tack was hoping to have improvements um but i do feel like we did have one list and i i totally agree i mean i don't think we should have projects ranks per se but just a list of like these are the main i mean and maybe you know once we get through the map and and also even i are working on the plan i mean the prioritization scheme that we could still at least put forth the list of like these are the top you know 10 15 projects that the tack is like the most interested and concerned in yeah and then they're not being shown in like a particular order where one is higher than the other and so on but just to identify that those are the projects that have come up over and over yep and that seems fair um if yes so two things are we then saying that we really can't have any list publicly available on the web until we have a complete streets plan completed and until we have our prioritization plan completed no no what i'm saying is even about 10 minutes so if we want to talk a little bit about the subcommittee we might want to do it but anyway no what i'm saying is you can't have my list to be your priority list to go on the town page okay got it got it okay thank you thanks for that clarification um and yep um eve did you say that you had some subcommittee updates i don't really have much to say because i've been completely buried but um the tracy helped helped us find a graduate student in transportation engineering who's going to be working with us and uh she and i are gonna meet and try to hammer out some of the numbers and some of those columns on the um the what's it called the level of service level of traffic stress um you know and then that anyway so that's the next step awesome thank you well i just have a quick like comment on that and um but i know that i i think i'd send her on a link to some people and other um cyclists i know that there was this uh survey that was distributed that like visually showed like which bike facilities are preferable for cyclists and things like that and i actually i was listening to an interesting presentation the other day just about um when you have bike lanes that have like barriers compared to ones that don't in terms of how safe people feel so i i'd be happy to it's um research that's going on at berkeley from somebody who'd got their phd at umas and uh so what they're doing is visually just trying to have people judge like what seems the safest to them or what do they worry the most about and things and i'd be happy to share it with attack but it's super helpful for me and emily actually yeah i think i did i sent it to you already i thought i did you might have if so it might have hit me when i was very i'll circulate that to the tack again right and if everybody wants to but that's the sort of stuff that the um subcommittee is looking at right in terms of like level of service for like all the different levels of cyclists and what do people feel the most comfortable with and safest with um so thank you for that discussion and i would love to get to um we still have a half hour left we can get to our bike pad plan which i do not have access to from this computer and i'm hoping maybe gilford do you have uh i was wondering let me go see if i can get it real quick i'm sorry i've got the map up i could email the people and but i've got it up on my computer um well we all need to share it right so i can share it except that i have to go yeah you can email right now you okay so why don't i pull it up right now and then i'll email it too is that good that's fine yeah actually and amber had sent them around right she sent it around a couple times yeah is this okay yes but is that from you because i'll grab it when she sends it over i'm sorry now you're gonna see my email you don't really need to see my email okay but now you can see the map right yeah and and all your drawings on it which is which actually was great too no i keep messing it up oh gosh sorry i'm gonna have to unshare until i send this email i can't that's fine yeah it's really i do have one question random question for gilford on northeast street that road that goes is shown as a road now on the map that goes into the woods who who owns that road they it goes off to like adams brook south of the big house oh that's that's the access to the old rifle range it's owned by umass okay because oh sorry i'm just thinking the the state stocks adams brook but there's nowhere to get to it apart from that but then it's all like um um showing that it's uh i mean keep off keep off keep off so i'm curious who owned it i i think it's you mass if i think that's what you're saying i didn't realize there's a rifle range down there it's interesting used to be it's not one anymore yeah oh that's interesting oh yeah the only rifle range in town is at the south end of town now right but yeah i put the notch on the way there okay make one comment about the map i just wanted i don't want to make sure you guys are remembering that we're talking about two different levels of bicyclists as well as pedestrians and we want to mark um which if we have all three of those two of those you know etc but i thought this map i thought this map was just um the the for all three the purple for everybody right isn't that what we were we had well the way they the way these guys did it is they only looked at pedestrian pedestrians and bicyclists they grouped all bicyclists together and in our discussions we really emphasize that um the stronger bicyclists and the less experienced bicyclists may actually need different infrastructure right can you just go to the bottom the where the um legend of this map is right okay so remember and so this is for everybody oh yeah so default assumption is where we've put heads we also want small and inexperienced cyclists yeah yeah okay and and on this map so far the blue is the walking um a blue is sorry blue is a biking um and the red or pink is walking and then purple is both pink you remember better than me Kim well when we'd gone down to um main street like we'd gotten like we had done high street you did something and then meeting i missed that yes yeah yeah yeah you know that we had done all those neighborhoods like near the middle school and the high school right yeah for those right we were in the middle of um i feel like we were um on the uh the red circle all the way to the left right that's we had kind of who that's a good question if who does have the mark up for that um um um um amber but eve is gonna leave right so we need to have someone else that can do this i got it okay thank you so then gilford you have the notes from the second meeting right where we went from north amherst to the to main street i mean i think i think amber has those okay mark is you're talking about this road right here right yes yeah yeah that's the rifle range roads humus property okay cool oh huh and we concurred um with the purple being the um center can we go in a little bit gilford um yeah i think we ended up just we had gone you're right we had gone through the um wildwood and the middle school region we were more in the downtown region um yes does everyone agree with me on that anyone disagree i think we should go um can you we were starting to go through umass i remember like we stopped because we were talking about like commonwealth and some of the this area okay umass streets we did definitely do the middle that area over there so we did those yes but then i know that we got to umass and we were talking about like the the road to go past southwest and like all oh and not emity that's no it's fearing fearing okay um and so maybe you could bring that in a little more gilford for us the north pleasant and mass at like and um fearing area and of course the new roundabout isn't on there and they increased all you know that whole um street which is uh what is it north whatever university drive that's i mean at least that part through umass is much better now um and so are we in agreement okay so the blue and um on these pieces through umass like mass av and um fearing and sunset and Lincoln um those are blue which is oh biking which is interesting because there are no bike lanes on say Lincoln and sunset for sure or mass av i don't think there's bike lanes on mass av no in there but there shouldn't be biking is mostly on those you know the sidewalks there i don't think there should be uh only two lanes of traffic i mean the the sidewalks are really wide on either side of that and and there's you know there's the there's lots of access for bikes through campus anyway i guess wouldn't we still call those like shouldn't they still be purple as part of the yeah i think all of those should be purple i mean those are should they be purple or pink because you're saying they don't have but yeah they need to be bikeable whether it's separate or shared road they need exactly yeah yeah so they should all they should have all been i mean they already are pretty much all of those streets anyway so now what about fearing though should fearing be both fearing is so thin i mean so narrow and it's got all the on-street parking but then it can be shared roadway you just have to be calm enough but yeah that should be bikeable um and i guess you know very relevant to this is you know Lincoln and um sunset with all the parking stuff now too so remember blue is biking um but could you make the argument saying it's biking that we're basically we would preclude on-street parking because of the safety concerns especially like on fearing where it's so narrow i don't think i think fearing doesn't have i mean parts of fearing not the non-umass portions of fearing don't have arms on street parking okay night on the hill down southwest has um you know some parking you know proper metered parking there that's it it's the mass meters yeah yeah um yeah and um in the um level of traffic stress it might it might just mean we can't achieve lts2 you know that it might be one of those places where we only get to lts3 although that they now have these really wide um highly improved sidewalks there which are much are very wide and now very smooth and easy for you know certainly could share share with cyclists they're very wide sidewalks so they did a really nice improvement on that hill you must did on the hill yeah i just thinking like you know sunset through into town yeah it's fairly narrow but yeah and there are parking you know that's parking right i'm just um but i think all that should be it should be purple because it pretty much already is both i mean there definitely are sidewalks in throughout the entire area um on one side of the street i mean they're fairly narrow they're normal you know narrow side on sunset and and actually yeah on sunset yeah on fearing and fearing right yeah it's all one side but yeah i mean effectively what what you're saying is that it's going to be good for inexperienced cyclists at least assuming they're still allowed beyond that sidewalk because downtown cyclists are not allowed to be on the sidewalk so if that is is continued then this will be good for inexperienced or uh small or old cyclists but uh it won't be you know the ideal level for the really strong cyclist biking on the street but but we have roads such that we are not going to achieve you know our ideal level of service traffic stress on every street for right okay yeah that's cool okay so all of that i mean everything in that quadrant really should be and that was oh so of course i'm looking back at this and now i'm remembering the part that we went through last time which is um just to the right of that off of um uh is it triangle that blue on both ends of triangle should really be all that yeah yeah we don't have that roundabout either okay great and then um we should also discuss i guess it also makes sense that amity all the way down to um university um certainly should it certainly has sidewalks on both sides i i'm not sure you know that that hill for me as a cyclist and i'm a fearless cyclist also often makes um it's it's a little it's you know that's a little dangerous i feel like that hill because of the speed of traffic and the lack of um yes on amity you know it ain't down the hill yeah yes oh she's gone yeah right okay keeping track of this is someone making notes about what we're saying yes skill for making notes okay which is the north end of university drive where it meets messachusetts avenue it looks like there's kind of a squiggle that goes off um to the right that's the bike way that's the bike way yeah that's the bike way goes okay and nobody i mean i i really that should be that should be purple because i can use pedestrians and bikers yeah that's a good point yeah thanks for pointing that out chris you know what we're talking about gilford right yes um yeah it's interesting that the norah track trail isn't on the map shouldn't it be on the map well we were talking about this earlier that is it i mean at least as a marker like it doesn't have to be that yeah you know amherst controls it but just to oh that's it that's purple that unmarked you know non-street purple but then what was the part that um proust was just talking about that north up at the campus the bike way you know how the bike way would it where it goes up past uh southwest okay got it yeah there's a little squiggle that should be a perfect intersection yeah yeah okay um great so i think we uh concurred that amity and um going west should continue to be purple um the question is so um i'm curious about how um the blue hills and um Lincoln are both um in blue but like dana isn't for example um yeah i'm trying to understand blue hills yeah actually i don't know i don't i don't understand that either is that where you live on that is that your i do live on blue hills but i mean so Lincoln has sidewalks and it's also part of the bike route that would go from route nine to campus the blue hills doesn't have any title i guess i don't understand why blue hills is like considered that cut through yeah that's weird i don't i don't we just have that as a cycling route rather than a pedestrian route it's a car cut through route right i don't think we want that on the map but then why exclude i i'm i'm just a little confused why not dana too yeah why not dana too i'm just like well and also if they are a cycling route like does that mean you sign it in someone for cycling well yeah like if you put it as a cycling route do you have to have a cycle lane but it's a road that you could cycle on fairly safely it should be fairly slow right yeah and it doesn't your it doesn't also have speed bumps on it or they all do Lincoln dana and blue hills they all have them right or knocking police i don't know i think dana does yeah i yes they all do yeah um uh so i'm not sure what our conclusion is from that other than what a question mark by blue hills any any idea on that gilford why it's just blue why why it is blue to begin with because it doesn't yeah why why blue hills and Lincoln or blue but dana isn't for example and blue hills has speed bumps on it doesn't all of those yeah all three all three of them do that wouldn't be a comfortable place to um cycle i don't think in the lower end of Lincoln doesn't have speed bumps yeah they all it's only from amity no chris is right there are no speed bumps on the amity to route nine section you're right there is a sidewalk so i'm it should be purple i mean Lincoln should be well it's so it's a little hard in town too because wouldn't you want all i mean i guess we want to identify priority routes but you would want decent sidewalks like on most of the downtown on most of the streets yeah right like mclellan and like but we've already kind of said this about like neighborhoods right we don't want that we're not having neighborhoods on sorry not having neighborhoods not having having sidewalks in neighborhoods i i mean i don't necessarily agree with that but that's kind of been the the point forward so should we force it in you know the blue hills like where would you put one well i get yeah i guess i was thinking like mclellan or something all right some other like street that connects yeah one already has sidewalks yep right yeah Lincoln should we should reflect the fact that that's already there yeah so Lincoln should be purple right i mean they should be purple i think as well as northampton road right where right and that's going to be where the project is right but i yeah i don't think blue hills should be blue agreed in terms of like the overall network right to marcus's point we're not just talking about neighborhoods we're talking about the overall network and connectivity do you ever think that we should have two maps one a biking map and one a pedestrian map yeah essentially but but then that gets to the level of service and like the safety and comfort for like the less experienced cyclist right so like children or but you can have less experienced cyclists and stuff i mean if you had a cycling map and a pedestrian map you can still have different levels of each within each but i mean it's nice to tie them all together but then you just end up with like a million different colors but yeah i mean there's really no purple on this map you know right what do you mean there's not a purple line on here there's blue lines and red lines oh right i understand together they look purple purple right oh you didn't know that marcus no i learned something new every day oh man good for you like my daughter telling me that something yellow is green oh my god yeah um but i do think i mean Lincoln all the way down to northampton road and northampton road should be purple i mean red and red and blue guilford i understand purple also i mean i guess that's a question is well you could say purple on the key that it's both right just to clarify for people because people won't it doesn't say that in the key does it when i gave it to my when i gave it to the person i got working on this cleaning it up he was like well what does purple mean and i said there is no purple oh yeah because because the other slightly confusing thing is that the um that the center thing is also um red so perhaps that should be black that can that could be a different color yeah like orange or purple i know nothing else yeah or green or something yeah well we green is yeah something else on this map i think yeah i ask a question of guilford what's the schedule on the route nine work do you know without the bid supposedly out the bid this month so the war it's gonna start no they won't start until fall okay that's coming in yeah are they gonna start at the amherst end or start at hardly they're starting in amherst oh okay cool yeah i don't know where they're gonna start such it actually is a short project so i'm just trying oh sorry go on it only goes from university drive to south pleasant streets that's too much it's a real short project the college is ripping up the athletic fields too right so they're trying to avoid messing with the traffic in and out of that well i think not even thought of that well amherst college will probably be done before the major major work starts and it'll it'll look like like we're leading the whole route nine project too okay i think the hadley one is out the bit as well okay cool so everybody's gonna go up through sundaline now yeah this is you mass comes back with all the students i know right why not over the covid time amherst college has been trying to get on the on the 91 um signs for so long that maybe this is their opportunity so um so um let's proceed with um we have a few more minutes so we can do a little bit more work here um let's see um the spring street in um that also is a sidewalk on it um doesn't it as yes so shouldn't that be um perfect red and blue red and blue and um i don't know about dickinson street and what are the one it has a bit of one what are the ones that are what is only north of main street that's the stuff up to you know yeah what is leslie street leslie street goes up around the um amherst college dorms right yeah i know i know that's why is it um why is that one marked as pink which is walking where they're like for example there isn't a sidewalk like they're pretty sidewalk right but my my my point is why are those in particular in red and not say for example mclellan yeah i would argue that we shouldn't have that leslie street yeah because the intersections and then also right the top intersection is very dangerous for pedestrians it has a crosswalk right at the curve and there's it's all blind spots it might be a shortcut though um instead of you don't have pedestrians going down that steep section of triangle towards main right it's all blue so it looks like somebody made a decision to use leslie street as the pedestrian route but i i agree with um um your uh tracy's comment that that is like that if if you are to cross if you're going to walk from there over to um triangle it's on a very awkward part of the um no it is but it's nothing that couldn't get fixed with a couple you know lights or something right but i would also argue that as part of like a larger network that the triangle should go red like all the way down to main street particularly because not everybody who's walking on triangle wants to go like towards the other part of town like there are people who are going to want to go towards west amherst or to main street and the businesses along there i want to get the hot tub time pizza i'm sorry yes yeah it's funny to have leslie street and also the cemetery that's what i was trying to understand the cemetery yeah yeah i don't understand that i think that isn't that actually like an official walking trail though i was over there the other day and i so it could be through the again it shouldn't be on our network map per se should i think i think leslie street is fine for the network i think i agree that the intersection needs work but it is a you know if you're trying to come from say the high school or something into town it's a network it's your most direct route true it has everything in there the the i have no idea yet but i mean again you could say the same for the the one part of the route within the cemetery certainly could be considered a a major cut through but do we want to promote that when you could really just use pray street instead it's also only open right it's not open yeah right so yeah exactly i think we get rid of the the graveyard because you know we're trying to be cognizant of what it's used intended uses yeah i agree um and i guess with leslie if we do have leslie on the map it should go all the way down to main street but like it stops it like yes at the park that park right yeah it should go right and then i do think too that it should be red that section of triangle that's only blue because that is still a walking no that whole a whole bit of triangles exactly actually all of triangle right all the way from the main intersection yeah right yep i and with that something we i think we decided the last time at our last meeting um and so what did we decide of dickinson street and spring street spring street should be purple as well that's a major intersection through town um and already has sidewalks um but i don't know about that dickinson does have a sidewalk now yes yeah emmer's college put one in so i think it should be purple because yeah i do use it to go down to the emmer's college campus okay yeah i agree um and how north whitney because it like connects up to the middle school right is that the idea high street well isn't it isn't that north whitney that the blue is north whitney because the middle school north whitney goes to uh strong street oh right okay well again that's another corridor well it is on this i mean which yeah i mean should should there be a corridor path on high street i guess high street because it does connect with the middle school boy and those there is that there is a footpath on high street already yeah all the way to the schools and then even chestnut right when you want it maybe to go like chestnut that's a corridor too right from chest pleasant street that whole that whole thing in between east pleasant and main street does seem like and and it does connect all the schools and absolutely really seems like and and for the most part all of that has sidewalk already um and it's wide enough you know for for bikes as well so we would make it all red and blue yeah pink or purple yeah um what about um yeah so north whitney as well right it doesn't make sense that it stops and that certainly is the um and i think we we talked about this actually at our last meeting um this part of the map so all the way from um red gate down to um to that purple at the at the bottom of our what is that yeah yeah because there is an existing footpath on the street right yeah i might do that um okay yeah and we did we did the rest of this in our last meeting so we can go further um if we could go further south well um we're about we're about out of time actually um but if we could just take a look i'm sorry gilford yeah thank you i'm just i'm just curious where we are now okay so that's college street and oh and north hampton road that we already discussed that's going to be purple and then snel street right would be purple too well i don't know well so there's a really narrow part yeah snel street scares me a little bit and then there is also the there's the new little well the mini roundabout where where the mini roundabout that's going in at the corner that the intersection of south drive and now that's right um oh oh right yeah and i guess all that again that swifts way is that what the why the split between the red and the blue there is that because it swifts way and then it connects right yep um at that point yeah there will be a pathway though along the extension of university drive south it's not there now but in front of in front of barry roberts new development there there will be a sidewalk so oh good great for snel do we really need to have a sidewalk there i mean make purple between the the nawatuk trail and south pleasant because you can get on the nawatuk you know right at the bridge there and go on the the rail trail up to 116 so do we need to force you know um stuff through there i'm just curious i mean this is kind of an interesting thing right i think snel is narrow to have a sidewalk it is yeah yeah well it is currently but it could be on our map right i mean this is our observation who owns the woodland is it amos college emers college so maybe if you put the um the dpw there oh we'll get it for free so so marcus you would make that blue section like red and blue both um what you're proposing no i think we get rid of that blue section because yeah you don't need it you know i was thinking about that too except for i guess my one concern would be that the nawatuk trail isn't fully accessible in the winter for example i know well that i mean it currently isn't right so that it would be there is potential for um let's say heavy equipment in quotes to go up and down that route in that particular area as a loop to make it accessible because you can just come off the bridge at 116 and go down it and then go down the swift way i'm just i'm just wondering like in terms of all season access and as the amount of development at the corner of university drive and route nine increases that in terms of year-round accessibility that it might be good as kim was suggesting even though the road is too narrow at this point to have that is a red and blue route just because because i also think of the trail as yeah i mean you run into the recreational then yeah it is recreational but you can we could make it i mean there is a potential for a loop there right there's easy access for a bobcat or whatever to get down there and clean the route the issue that could potentially be cheaper than widening the bridge at snout you know the the trail bridge so that you could safely have pedestrian and um bike access under the bridge in the roadway which is what you would be suggesting by making that stretch of roadway you know purple or red and blue you're never going to bridge that bridge is just like way too narrow for anything it means too narrow for traffic now so if we make this section of snow between that and 116 red and blue we push the need to widen that or we just say put the snow clearing stuff down the trail and take it off and make it go a swift way and we're done right so so well i guess i guess one question is long term can that snow bridge continue to be there like isn't there going to be like increasing transportation traffic to widen it and so i can say i'd like to say it as part of our aspirational transportation network even if it's not currently and i think i think having it in here um i mean i think the things that you're saying uh uh uh marcus are are simply like you know it could be an alternative if we say here's our aspirations is to make a purple you know then then the planners or whoever can say well this is the aspiration it's not really possible because of that bridge we can you know use yeah section of the rail trail instead um with someone like to make a suggestion about finishing up this meeting because i move to end this meeting i think you have to use the word adjourn adjourn this meeting sorry i'll second thank you thank you so much i feel like we did some good work tonight guys thank you kim thank you kim for taking the helm thanks for taking the notes thank you thank you night bye everybody good night everybody