 a happy new episode of 420grams here on newsclick.in. We're joined in studio today by India Women's Football Superstar Dalima Chabbar. Thanks for coming in. Thank you. And Beva Kragnandan, who's not a superstar in any way. I thought I was a could be 420gram superstar. So we're talking essentially about rounding up sort of the first round of matches, the group stage of matches at the Women's World Cup that's currently underway in France. We all have our own teams that we're following and backing. So let's start with you. How's it been watching the tournament? What are the key standout sort of events? And what's your team? The World Cup so far has been crazy. I feel there have been some outstanding performances by, especially by some of the youngsters. Like you can see Nikita, Paris coming in from England. And then there's Leakey Martin's performing Gilles Gouvel. And then there have been such comebacks in a lot of matches. And with the scorelines have been huge. And my team that I'm supporting is Australia. And one match, and that has been like the moment of the tournament for me, is their match against Brazil where they made a comeback in the second half with a scoreline of 3-2. And their players, I mean, their fighting spirit, it's crazy. And even on their t-shirts, they have never say die embroidered. And like, I mean, they are following that quote, passionately. And now they have topped the group and they've qualified. So like, I'm really rooting for them. They have never qualified from quarterfinals for the semi-finals. But I am really looking forward to at least qualify for the semi-finals this year. Super, Asian team. So yay for that. How about you, you've been watching the Dutch, I believe. Yeah, I've always watched the Dutch if they're playing in a big tournament. And they've been playing like the way the Dutch footballers play. I think this is only the second time that the Dutch have qualified for the World Cup. They've qualified for the last edition and now this one. And they're a very young team. And like Dalima was saying, Lika Martins, who was world player of the year in 2017. And well, she's actually been sort of a little low key in the first few games for the Dutch. I think my standout player for them has been Daniela van der Donk, who has got no assists and no goals. But she's basically holding the strings to that midfielder. Fantastic-looking player, very, very skillful. So yeah, the Dutch are going to go far, European champions. I think it's been, yeah, like you said, a lot of really, really quality football to watch. A lot of good goalkeeping, a lot of good goal scoring. I really enjoyed the Brazil-Italy game the other night because it was one of those contests between the flair and style on one side and organization and different stuff. Actually, the thing is, also, she brought up the Brazil versus Australia game. And that's a rivalry in women's football, by the way. Brazil-Australia is like a thing in women's football. They've always been going for each other. They love playing against each other. And it's this exact difference in styles. Like the Brazilians bring the flair and... Anger, they're coming out and a lot of aggressiveness on the field that comes out. Especially when Australia got their first goal, Brazil lost it, I feel. That is one reason why they lost the match as well. It was really good. Exactly, it was pretty much like the game you were talking about. A lot of fun to watch, I mean, because sometimes, I think, also, there's a bit of space on the pitch. So, there is a little bit of an extra second also for players to do fun stuff with the ball. And I thought Brazil was doing a lot of that. It was almost a mix of beach football with... I feel like that is in their roots. It comes naturally to all of this. So, from match day one as the tournament has progressed, what for you have been the developments? How has it been evolving as the tournament has gone along? I feel now a lot of people, since they have seen at least the first round of matches, a lot of people have gained interest in the women's football. Not only, I wouldn't only talk about the world, but even in India, now I have people who at least train with me and they come and tell me, oh, I saw the match yesterday and look, Alex Morgan scored a hat, she scored five goals, she's got a hat trick in the match the other day. And I feel really happy that now their interest is at least growing up in India and thankfully, we could get the rights to show the matches in India. So, I feel the interest not only all over the world, but even in India, it's growing in women's football. It's also, how is it translating in terms of, there's a, I suppose, vast difference between what's happening in France and where things are with women's football in India. But the interest level sort of does translate, like you're saying the interest level that you get personally or the kind of, so how is that playing out in terms of increased attention, increased awareness? Yeah, I would say that people have started recognizing us as women footballers in India now. And there are more people who are reaching out to us in terms of talking about the games and in terms of representing their brand, maybe be your face for their brands and talk about their brands and to encourage the youngsters. I feel that has in a way changed a lot and not even the FIFA World Cup coming in. I would also say the under 17 FIFA World Cup, the rights that we've got and plus the last four months and the achievements with the national team, I feel all of that altogether has played a really big role in terms of that attention coming in and that media walking in and giving that time and space for women footballers to speak up and to express themselves and to reach the masses. What's been the reaction to all this media that you're doing now more and more? How are people responding to what you put out? It has been pretty positive. Now people are appreciating me because people around me always used to not encourage me in terms of what I was doing and what I wanted to do and if I wanted to take football as a career. But now I feel that mentality sort of has changed and that awareness has also been created that now if women footballers do want to take up the sport in a country like India, they can. Because now even FIFA under 17 World Cup is coming in, I feel that should play a huge role in terms of changing the mentality in India and like bringing about a little revolution in women's football in the country. Last time we met, you were playing the Indian Women's League in Lajjana. So on the one hand you have this increased sort of media attention and more publicity happening. When you're doing this right now, you won't have to be in this room, you won't have to be in this room the other day. So you're doing a lot of stuff. But is there a gap between what happens in sort of the virtual space on social media and what happens in real life in terms of people actually following the game? I feel that is there because it is very easy for people to just sit at one place and just follow and know everything on their phones. But even in IWL, we did not see a lot of people turn up for the games. And when the matches were telecasted on football, there was huge viewership on live matches. Because as I said, it's very easy to sit at one place and look, but like people do not actually want to turn up to the stadium. Could be, I mean, there could be various reasons, but yeah, there is a huge difference in terms of that as well. I think a huge amount of whatever we caught from the common sections of all these live games, a lot of people weren't turning up the stadiums perhaps because of the timing of the games and also because of the lack of publicity about the IWL itself. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't speaking specifically about the IWL, but just in general, in terms of the kind of support and the following that the game is getting. Coming back to the World Cup, so it's pretty clear now who the teams are that are going forward. More or less, the big game tonight is USA-Sweden, which should be... Which is actually the grudge match. Only one of the biggest games. I guess after Brazil-Australia, this is probably like the biggest game of the group stages. But it's more or less academic, only to do with who finishes where in the group. Actually, it makes a huge difference because if the US finish top, then they'll face France in the quarters. If they finish second, then they avoid. Then we get the blockbuster clash later. Yeah, I know. You wouldn't want to. Yeah, absolutely. You wouldn't want to drop any points. Yeah, I guess I don't see the US really dropping points. I don't know, either Sweden are good, but like the US are... But this point was actually brought into our press conference and the coach was like, I can't stop them from tackling each other in the field. How do you expect me to tell them to lose the game and not face France in the quarter-finals? I feel that that's great, that's great. It'll be like a really nice match to watch tonight. So I think the US team, I mean, they're copying a fair bit of press from different areas for different reasons. But I think they've gone into the World Cup with a huge amount of pressure, not just because they're world champions, but because also the fact that they're championing a cause for women's football, which is bigger than just the game itself, yeah, just football itself. So that is really, I mean, that also ties into the larger thing we were talking about exposure for the women's game. And I think this World Cup is perhaps being followed a little more than usual women World Cups. Like there's a lot of eyeballs on almost every team. Like I think the England team are getting a lot of media. We were just talking before the camera started rolling about how the women's team's average viewership on television in England has been more than the English cricket team's viewership. So that's quite massive, if you think about it. I think that's true for France also. The stadiums are packing up for their games. I don't know if it's massive. I mean, it's a good reality check for those who sit in India, I guess. Yeah, definitely. For the rest of the world, there's no real comparison between the numbers that cricket get and football. Yeah, true. Yeah, I guess it's massive for us. You're right. In England playing, I mean, I think now you see even when they play friendly games at home or whatever, the matches are all sold out. Of course, they may not necessarily happen at 60,000, 70,000 seater stadiums. Probably it's smaller. No, those kind of venues are only selected by our guys for our matches. So never done for the other guys. Also, that's making a bigger difference. I feel as though the legends, like the living legends who are playing the FIFA World Cup, fighting for a good cause for women in football. Like Marta, you see her wearing plain black studs with a gender equality symbol and that is what she celebrates after scoring every goal and I feel that's a really good cause. But like there's Edda on the other side who's not playing the FIFA World Cup because she wants an equal pay for women and men, which is huge. And I mean, for every game that women players go out, it's like a point to prove. So I feel that is why there are a lot of people who are paying attention because they are seeing that what are these people actually fighting for. So I feel every match that we go out, it's like a thing that we have to prove ourselves. Every match we need to prove ourselves, so yeah. I think the media attention also has probably an impact on how people do on the pitch as well, right. And some of that seems to be translating. I don't know, we don't get to watch a massive amount of women's football, especially not international women's football on a regular basis. So a lot of this is, and it's a World Cup so it's unfortunate, but a lot of it is new or rare that you have the best teams in the world, at least on-show or on a daily basis for an entire month. And there, I think like everyone's upping their game a little bit, little bit. Definitely, game by game. And it started off with sort of a lot of one-sided contests with a lot of goals for one team and then nothing for the others. And then everyone's now competing and fighting and it's great to see like even the Thais get a goal. Yeah. Yeah, I need a lot of emotions that will evolve, I mean, involved within the team after they got their first FIFA World Cup goal. I mean, that was crazy. And even France, like from their last World Cup to this World Cup, I think they've really upped their game because there are a lot of people who are turning into the stadium to support them, to watch them and I feel that is a huge boost for the players who are playing in the field because at the end of the day, whatever they're doing, the hard work is getting recognized. It seems more realistic from an Indian point of view again that the women's team will make it to World Cup before the men's team does, right? How do you view where your squad is currently placed in terms of being competitive with, let's say, the Asian teams that are at the World Cup for Thais in China, Japan, Korea? So what I feel is we ranked, I mean, right now, we ranked 12th in Asia, but after a four-month exposure, we could compete with a team like Myanmar who was ranked 44th in the world and way above us in Asia. So I feel if that exposure is continued, at least for like years to come, I feel we can even make it to the main Asian cup from the qualifiers in the coming two years. So I feel that shouldn't be difficult, but it all comes down to how much of competitive environment and atmosphere we've provided with and the number of matches that we've provided with where we can actually test ourselves and we can test each other as a team together because the more number of matches, the more experience and I feel the better the game. That's pretty obvious from just the kind of number of matches that say the American team or the French team or even the Norwegian team, these national teams, the number of matches they play, their youngest players, players who are called, they're new to the team, have already played 50 games. So that's quite a lot. Yeah, we were looking at sort of the stats for Christine Sinclair and some of these senior players. She's of course, she's got 181 goals in international football and four away from being the top all-time leading goal scorer and she's played something like, I think, 270 plus games. That's a massive hockey stat. I mean, yeah. It happens in hockey, 300 caps, 350 caps. It happens right now. Manpreet Singh just played his 250th, I don't know why you're talking about hockey. Not even a sport anymore. But, sorry, I've lost track of where we were. No, I think it's about exposure. Yeah, I mean, just the number of games that the Indian team should be playing and perhaps the number of games that, across age groups, they should be given an opportunity to expose themselves to. It makes a huge difference. And it all comes down to the league structure within the country itself. I mean, all the countries who are playing the FIFA World Cup have a well-established league structure, like, you know, club football is like the culture there and they play all around the earth in a competitive season for like around eight months in a year. I feel it does come down to that also because you need a lot of matches and you need a competitive environment around you for you to grow as a player. Basically, if you don't play, then... If you don't play... But the thing is, if you don't play, then you won't play. Chicken and egg. Yes. I was also looking at the league structure in Japan. Since 1989, they've had a league for women and it's a three-tier league. So maybe the third sort of stage is like a qualifier that gets you into the main rounds of competition. But still, three levels of domestic competition, for women, senior women. And obviously, then you have the age group teams in the same setup. So that's what... And if you look at the list of recent call-ups, for example, that they've had to the national team. We're only talking about Japan because it's just an example close to home or whatever. There are like 50, 60 players that have recently gone through the national team setup. So the base that these countries have of existing talent and that is at a certain level is far, I think, greater than where we are currently and the league structure. I mean, by the way, I didn't ask the question. Yes, I should ask. For what? So please, make a good league structure. Make a good league, right? Then we'll be somewhere else. No, actually, you're right about Japan being closer to home. So using them as an example. But I think culturally, not culturally, maybe. I don't know what the correct word is. But in terms of the way that the current situation is, Argentina are probably closer to what the Indian women football structure is. And their players, and I'm not saying this as like any sort of situation, but I'm just saying that their players went and went on strike and really went for the federation, saying that they should be provided equal opportunities. So it's, you know, I mean. So apparently they had not played a game in almost no. Oh yeah, they did not play the game in two years. One of their players who sued the federation was run out of her contract, thrown out of the national setup. She's not playing the World Cup, but she's very happily following the team. So yeah, there's a lot of basically a lot of interesting stories going on around the tournament, not just the football. And Argentina got their first point, right? No, they've got their first point against Japan. So they got their, they got their first goal and first goals in a rush of 20 minutes. Yeah. So I guess that pretty much covers most of the things we had talked about. The one thing maybe I can ask you just to conclude, since you were saying that there is this little bit of interest in awareness or interest from brands in getting, associating with women's football and with athletes, this kind of feeds into the creation of a club structure as well, because that cannot happen. Like sort of no one's going to come and create a club structure or create these clubs. They'll have to happen individually or groups will have to be put whatever, however clubs are formed. So is there an interest, do you think, an increasing interest in private parties to put in the money, the time, the effort to set up these clubs? I mean, one thing that I would say is putting a money on a player and putting a money on a team, which includes staff as well, is very different. And managing a team requires a huge amount of, like a huge amount of finances. And I don't think that at this moment, the stakeholders are ready to do that because even, I mean, only Gokulam has been one team which has been consistent from I-League who has played the IWL because in the first edition we saw Pune City FC, but then they backed out and all the ISL teams did come up and then in the end they backed out. And I've always said that it would be very beneficial for the women's football if they step in and they create their women's team because they already have a large fan following and that would create a very, very immediate impact on the fans and it would make a very huge difference in terms of how women's football is viewed in the country because women's footballers will be there on their Instagram, handle where the men's footballers are and people won't stop following the accounts. They would then, even unconsciously, but they will pay attention to the women's footballer as well. So I would say managing a player and managing a team is pretty different and the stakeholders at the moment are not ready to put in that amount of money into women's football because they don't see stability in it at the moment because it is something that is still growing in our country. Although we do need that support, but there needs to be a certain amount of stability for them to actually invest their time and money to be able to succeed. I guess we're all about speculation in this country. We won't start to make it happen real quick, but if you're not interested in supporting women's football, take a look at the World Cup and what's happening there. Fact stadiums, I think decent advertising revenues, solid numbers on television. So obviously, there is a market there and if market language is the language that we understand, then maybe there will be a queue to start following the women's game a little more here in India. That's how it happens. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Let's hope that Dalima and the rest of her team don't become such big superstars that they stop coming into the stadium. Now you've said it on camera. This little clip is getting archived. See you again. So thank you once again, great chat. Always good to have you guys. Thank you for watching. See you next week.