 I wanted to show that I'm good at stuff too. And so I worked so hard at everything I did. I wanted to be the best at everything I did. And honestly, I don't think that was my natural personality. I was kind of more like a relaxed, just kind of draw pictures and not really be a driver. But I feel like he put a fire under me. You are listening to the number one Fitness Health and Entertainment podcast, This is Mind Pump. Now in today's episode, we talk to the guy who runs the show, the puppet master, the Wizard of Oz himself, Doug Eggy, the producer of Mind Pump. We actually interview him and talk all about how everything started and then we talk about Mind Pump and how that started and how we grew and the moments we knew that this would be something we'd be doing for a very, very long time. If you're interested in podcasting or fitness or building a business or you just wanna hear some really, really good stories, you're gonna love this episode. 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Here is how you sign up or if you just wanna learn more, go to mapsnovember.com. That's the word maps, M-A-P-S, November.com. Probably the most requested podcast episode. I would say up there with the girls. Yeah, I was gonna say that's the other one where everybody wants to hear the girls' perspective too. Yeah, which we're not gonna put you there. Yeah, let's wait on that. Yeah, I know too much. Yeah, at least not happening. But the second most popular is that we interview Doug. Yes, the voice behind it all. The guy who runs the show, who manages the, what it, who herds the cats. The cat herder. The cat herder. Runs the business. The wizard of Oz. Yeah, exactly. So Doug, let's go all the way back. Oh my God. Yeah, let's go all the way back. First, I wanna say you're, I've known you the longest and you are definitely one of the best people I've ever met, that's a true story. Definitely one of the best people and so I wanna know how that all started. And when I say best, I mean you've got incredible integrity, morals, you're a good person, just genuinely good person. And oftentimes that comes from some of your upbringing. So what was it like being a kid growing up in the 1700s? Yeah, where do the values and morals come from? Yeah, for real. For a guy who doesn't tout any religion or say anything like that, you do seem to have a very moral fabric there. Well, I can thank my parents 100%. My parents were, I mean, very traditional when we grew up, they were married, I think in 1951. So they grew up during that time where the family values, the mother, the father, family unit was extremely important. They were religious. We went to church, typically three times a week. Okay. Oh, a lot of church. Yeah, a lot of church. Okay, so when you were going through that because I have a similar story, did you hate going when you were there? Or did you hurry out? I absolutely despised it, honestly. Okay. And part of the reason was is I was a daydreamer and I was very into creative type things. And I went to church and I heard the messages there and it wasn't entertaining at all. And so I would just sit there and daydream the entire time. So that's a confession. So if anybody knows me, that's why. We're similar in that. Because I too had the three days a week in church since I was seven years old and on and felt the same way too. Many times I would trail. I had a hard time focusing. Yeah, very much so for me. Did you have any issues like that in school too? Yes, absolutely. In fact, when I was in elementary school, I did very poorly the first few grades. In math, I remember all my friends, they all knew their times tables and I couldn't get past like the threes. And it was just because I didn't put any energy or focus into it, I couldn't pay attention in class. Well, those threes are motherfuckers. Yeah, man. Three times seven. What was that? I couldn't figure it out. You could do a lot of drawings like these. It's real tricky after one. Yeah, I was a doodler. Actually, I did. I drew a lot of pictures in class. I constantly was focusing on other things, thinking about all the things I wanted to do outside of class. So I wasn't focused at all on that. And then at one point, I was put into the lowest math class and all my friends were in the highest math class. And I didn't like that. And so for me, that was putting a little bit of a fire under my butt and say, okay, you've got to concentrate. You've got to figure this out. And so I really got serious about my times tables. I was able to finally get them up to 12 times 12 and I started to excel a little bit in math and then I got raised up to the next level class because I want to be with my friends, right? Now, is that when you started to discover like that hard work equals results? Was that the first time you kind of figured that out? Yes. I think that was one of the things that clicked for me is like, okay, if I put energy and effort into learning something, I can get good at it. Now, was this a lesson in your family? Was your family very hardworking? Like what were the values that they? Yeah, cause you always talk about your brother and like how you've seen him be successful. And was he like an example for you? He was, he was a motivator for sure. He had a very high standard for me cause he had a very high standard for himself. And he was actually very talented in many ways. He was very good artistically, which was for me was my forte cause I was always the best artist in my class. And I love to draw pictures and I was very much into the creative things. But my brother was also very athletic which I've never been super athletic. I mean, if I practice something a lot, I can get fairly good at it, but my brother was just a natural athlete with great hand-eye coordination. And one of the things my dad did is he took a skiing when I was fairly young. And so we go up on the slopes and my dad was not a good skier. In fact, my dad was not athletic really at all but he enjoyed skiing. So he took us up on the slopes and we go skiing. And my brother would really work at it, to get really good. And he got to be a very, very good skier. And me, I was just like going down the hill, kind of these wide swoops across the slopes. And my brother, you're a horrible skier. You're absolutely horrible skier. You gotta be doing this. You gotta be doing that. And he just like ride me. And it's like, I don't wanna be horrible. I don't wanna be horrible. So I would really work at getting good at something. And I ended up being actually a pretty good skier, probably better than average. What's the age difference between you and your brother? Six years. Yeah, so he was very much a motivator in that respect. I think naturally I take more after my dad. My dad was, he was very interested in audio production, things like that. He had, we had movie cameras from the time I was a small child. My grandfather actually had movie cameras. So he got that. Like the super eight ones and all that. Oh yeah. Sweet. So we have movies of my mom over at my dad's house when she was like 17 years old. And that wasn't very common back then. Yeah, that was back, boy, that was in the 1950 or 1949. We have movies, family movies from back then. Wow. So I have family movies of my parents' wedding. So I got that part from my dad, right? My dad's just not athletic. And my dad was never a driver for perfection. But my brother was. My dad was a hard worker, very hard worker. I mean, he was a middle school principal. He always provided well for the family. They, of course, they grew up with parents from the depression. So they were very cautious with their money. My mother, incredible lady. I mean, she's 88 now. I love her so much. She is just a super good hearted person. Everybody loves her. And so, I mean, I really feel I got, you know, so many great values from my parents. And I really appreciate that. And even though I don't go to church, I feel like what I got from them as far as my moral code and how I treat others and so on is a reflection of how great of parents that they were. Now, Doug, I remember you telling me when, years ago when I trained you that you were a chubby kid. You had issues with weight or whatever. And that's kind of how you started to discover fitness. Yes. So again, my brother plays into this as well in many ways. My brother, when he was like seven, eight years old, he was, I would say obese. So he would eat a lot of food. And, you know, he's a very active kid, I think he was at the time, but he would just over consume calories. And he really struggled with his weight up until the time he was, I believe, 15 or so. And so when he was 15, he got very interested in girls and he was in high school. And so one summer, he was like, I think 60 pounds overweight at that stage. One summer, I don't know how he did this, but he just spent the entire summer just really eating very low calorie. And by the end of the summer, he had lost a good portion of that weight, if not most of it. So when he went back to school, nobody recognized him really, because he had lost so much weight. And my brother, just one more thing, not only was he a good athlete, not only was he a good artist, not only was he very good at a lot of things that he tried, he was also very good looking. And, you know, so I always had these, the standard always trying to equal this guy. And so when he started to get fit and healthy, I started to get a little bit more interested in that myself. Now we're talking to the old wise matured Doug that's probably grown through a lot since then. Back then, was there resentment or animosity or competitiveness with him because of that? You know, being the smaller, younger, less attractive, less talented, less athletic brother, did you resent him at all for that? Did you go through a phase of that? I sound pretty pathetic, don't I? Of course I resented that. How can anybody be more attracted to Doug? Because I mean, you speak so highly of him and I know you guys have a very good relationship but I have to think that, you know, if, you know, as a young, immature kid who's not probably very self-aware at that age, you probably are bitter or angry a little bit about it and, you know, did you start that way first? And if you did, what was that like and where was the transition into a different outlook on it? Yeah, there was a certain degree of jealousy regarding him, I believe, in some ways. Because I felt like I could never live up to that standard and it's like, you know, if you're around somebody that's very good at something and you wanna be good too and you know you're never gonna be like them, it's like, oh, what's wrong with me? Am I a lesser person or whatever the case may be? So I would say I probably had some insecurities regarding that. I mean, it didn't help that he kind of fed the fire at times, I remember when I was probably, I think, I don't know, eight years old or so and he was like 14, he brought home some boxing gloves. He's six years older than you. Yeah, he's six years older than me. So we put on these gloves because you can't get a punch in, you can't get a punch in, I'm getting hit in the face and knocked around and it's like, you know, my confidence was shaken. Is this holding your forehead? So for years, so for years I really wanted to prove myself. I wanted to make my brother proud in some ways. I wanted to show that I'm good at stuff too and so I worked so hard at everything I did. I wanted to be the best at everything I did and honestly I don't think that was my natural personality. I was kind of more like a relaxed, you know, just kind of draw pictures and not really be a driver but I feel like he put a fire under me that drove me and in some ways it was me trying to overcome my insecurities and over the years I started to get good at stuff. Not the same stuff that he was good at but I started getting good at other things and this is what kind of led me over the years to become good at what I do now. All these things have built that foundation for why I can do what I can do and also it built that work ethic because I don't think I had that work ethic without him driving me. When did you start to really find and feel your own identity, the things that you were good at? When did you start to feel like you? Yeah, definitely been a late bloomer in my life and many respects. It's probably been in the last 10 years. Oh wow, yeah. Wow, wow. So that's when you really started to feel it. Now was your trip over to Japan was that part of kind of discovering yourself? Absolutely. Yeah, so tell me about that Doug because you grew up in such a conservative kind of traditional leave it to beaver type house for example or household or family. Yeah, absolutely. But then I mean, I know you and I know you traveled a lot. You went all over the place. You lived in Japan for a while. How did that happen? So I went to school. I went and graduated from college. I got my degree in business. I concentrated in accounting. Thank God. It pays now. Yes, it does. However, I hated accounting. I really didn't like it. And the only reason I did it was because again, I wasn't really living my own life at the time. It was like, okay, I had very successful brother-in-laws. They were both MBAs and my one brother-in-law was a CPA and they had built their own businesses. My brother by this time was starting to find his way in business. And I thought, well, if I'm gonna be successful, I need to go out and get a degree that's gonna be very practical. And that's gonna be, being a CPA I guess is what I thought at the time. And so I did that not doing what I really would have probably done had I followed my heart. You know, I probably have been more interested in architecture or something like that. Something with design involved. So I ended up getting this degree and I didn't wanna do that. So I get out of college. I'm unhappy with the prospect of being an accountant. And so I ended up getting a sales job. My brother was doing sales at the time. And again, kind of following his path and he was being very successful. So I got a job selling industrial cleaning supplies for businesses and I would go door to door to businesses with this big suitcase. And I'd show them to greasers and do these demonstrations and things like that and sell these things but I wasn't that good at it, okay? But it was a good experience because I went out there and I had to cold call a lot. And I just wasn't making a whole lot of money. So I did that for a while and I ended up doing a number of different jobs after college that had nothing to do with my degree. And my last job before I went to Japan was selling Chevrolets. And I did that for one year, salesman of the month one month, sold 19 cars. But I- I give you a good deal. Yeah, I did. I worked it. So no, I wasn't the greatest for sure, but I worked hard at it. And by the end of that, I was just like, what am I doing with my life? I gotta do something different. And how old are you right now? About 25. Okay. And at the time I was living in a nice house with two roommates. We had a swimming pool at the house and this is up in Seattle. So it wasn't used year round. But I remember like one afternoon, I just came back and I was floating in the pool and it was, what am I doing with my life? And one of my roommates said, you know what? I have a friend that went to Japan and they had an incredible experience. You ought to try it out. And so- It's so random. Wow. Yeah. I said, sure. You should go to Japan. I know somebody else who did it. Sounds interesting. So that's what I did. As I went to Japan, I actually went on a exchange program. I'd already had my degree, but there was a local community college that had a campus in Kobe. And so I went to that campus. I just paid for a quarter. Loaded beef. Yeah, had a very good beef there. And I went there just to have fun. And I had fun. Believe me, it was some of the best time of my life. And I decided I'm gonna stay here. And that's how I ended up getting a job and working there for six and a half years. And what did you do there? You taught English? To kids. To kids. You were there that long. I didn't realize you were there that long. Now, did you enjoy teaching kids? I did. You're a natural with children. You really are. Here's the thing. By that point, I had suppressed my natural tendencies so much of who I was. It's artistic. I'd stop drawing pictures. I'd stop doing all the things that I enjoyed doing that when I started teaching kids, it was an opportunity to resurrect a lot of that. And so I started doing fun things with the kids, drawing pictures and playing games and making skits and things like that. And I started to reconnect with that childhood thing that made me happy. So the funny thing is, when I was a kid, I was a class clown. I would talk at the wrong times. I'd say inappropriate things. But over time, because of all this pressure I'd put on myself, I started to push all that down. And of course I'd get some negative feedback too from being a class clown. The teacher would be quiet, and then I'd hear from other people, children should be seen and not heard and stuff like that. And I suppressed a lot of who I was. And so going back to Japan and working with kids and being around kids and their spirit, the kids are just amazing with, they'll just say anything, their pictures, their artwork is fantastic because they have no constraints. They haven't been put in a little box yet. And I got reconnected with who I am or I was in that experience. What was it now? How did you enjoy or did you enjoy Japanese culture? What was that? I mean, it's such a different culture from America. How long did it take to adapt? And this was, was this the 80s when you went there? No, 90s. 90s? Okay, so 90s, very different from living here. Was there culture shock? Did you enjoy it? Yeah, so when I went there, I had really no interest in Japanese culture. I had no interest in Japanese food. I wasn't in the sushi or anything like that. So I went to Japan. I remember being on the- That's so crazy to me. I know, this is floating around on a pool floaty and the buddy says this, no, don't even like sushi. You don't have any interest in the culture but you say, fuck it, I'm doing this. You know what's interesting? That's the thing that- That's one thing we all have in common. All of us have something like that in our lives. Well, this was my thought. If I keep doing what I'm doing, I'm gonna keep getting the same thing I've always gotten. And I could see no path out of that at that time. So part of it is you, which this is something very common. I think all of us did this, right? You removed yourself from your comfort zone intentionally. Intentionally. I ripped myself out of there. Yeah, you wanted to grow. You know, during that time, there was a movie with Christian Slater called Pump Up the Volume. Have you seen that movie? Yeah, In Cleaning the Cube, around the same time. Yeah, that was an incredible movie because this kid, he was a bit of an introvert. He goes to a new school in Arizona and he has no friends. But he has this pirate radio show and he's really edgy and he's at night. And he deals with all these kids calling in and asking questions. And then the topic of suicide comes up and he addresses the topic of suicide. He goes, don't kill yourself. Do something crazy. Do something different. I mean, it's a great message. If somebody feels like my life sucks, I have no place to go. Things have just been bad and they look to the future. It looks bad. Do something different. Do something crazy. Take yourself out of your comfort zone and see what happens. And so that's what I decided to do when I went to Japan. As I said, I'm gonna just rip myself out of my comfort zone. I'm gonna go experience something new. I mean, what's the worst thing that can happen? Right, right. Now, you're a good looking guy, a good looking American guy. I gotta imagine you were popular with some of the Japanese ladies over there. What was that? Were you dating anybody? Yeah. Let's just say that. Something happened. This is what you call shooting fish in a barrel. Oh my God. Sushi, you're so exotic there, right? But kind of going back to what you're talking about when I got to Japan, no interest in Japan really at the time, but I heard you could make money and I was interested in money. So I'm on this bus and I'm driving down this countryside basically from the airport and there's all these rice fields and you go through these little towns and all the buildings are tiny and all the carters are tiny and all the roads are narrow because you're out in the countryside. And I felt like I was just in another world. You felt massive for the first time. Yes, that's actually true. I finally felt like, man, I'm... This is excellent. The meat gods of love music comes in. You mentioned something that I actually want to talk about and I actually don't think of you and I have gone deep so I don't know the answer to this at all. You have a really good relationship with money. That was quite the journey for me to get to where I'm at today. Share with me where that comes from. Where does your responsibility and the way you treat money and work? Like where did that all come from? That's a great question because you don't... You always live... Well, below your means. Below your means. Comfortably. You're not someone that spends your money on stupid shit. But yet you also, like me, are very competitive with the money thing and wanting to grow the business and so it's not like you don't care. You're very interested in that and you just alluded to it again that you were money-driven but yet it doesn't rule your world and you have a great relationship. So where does that all come from? Well, again, I can look to my parents as far as how to use money. My parents, again, very traditional so my mom never worked. My dad was a middle school principal and we live very frugally or they live very frugally. So we got presents on our birthday, we got presents at Christmas time but we never got a lot of stuff in between. When it came time for me to go to college they weren't gonna pay anything. It was up to me to go make all the money for school and so I worked during the summer to pay for my college and so I had to be very careful of my money as well and so I think some of their frugality rubbed off on me. That's interesting though because sometimes and a kid like me who didn't have very much growing up too when you finally get it though you tend to kind of go the other direction and you didn't, did you? Or did you and then that was a lesson for you? Well, so if I look back so I lived in Japan for six and a half years and during that time I had very few expenses other than me going off and traveling to different countries and things like that. Yeah, you told me in the past you lived in like a little room and you rode a bike. Yes, I lived in probably a hundred square foot room and then we shared, I lived with some other teachers, we shared a very small living room. It had like a two burner gas burner hot plate in there, a tiny refrigerator. It's like a dorm room. Like one bathroom. It was very rustic if you will. It was actually my boss had a home that had been there for probably a few hundred years and the backyard had these buildings. So they were very wealthy rice farmers in the day and these buildings in the back of their house had rice storage containers and things like that in them. And I lived in the back on this little unit that they had back there. So it was very, very rustic. Now, did you become like a minimalist from it? Did you find like value and joy out of not having a lot of stuff? Was that something you enjoyed in other words? I don't know if I ever found value and joy out of that. I was able to still accumulate a lot of stuff while I was there. My little room was packed full of things. So I don't think that was it. But I felt like, hey, we were all in the same boat. I didn't really need a lot of space. I rode a bicycle everywhere. I didn't have to pay rent. We had a phone bill. That's about it. And then going out and eating and having a good time every weekend. So what did you, were you stacking your chips? Were you starting to save money? Yes, I was saving. And so by the time I left Japan, I'd saved over $100,000. I had invested in some stocks and things. I mean, at the time, unfortunately, I still don't have them. I had like Starbucks stock back then. Oh. You know, I look back, man. Who knows where I would be now, right? So I was very careful with my money. And then when I got back to the U.S. from Japan, the first thing I did is I went and bought a triplex as an investment property. But then I had a turn of events. Well, before we get in that, why did you leave Japan in the first place? It sounded like such an awesome. It was great. So the first four years in particular, I had a great time. And then I started taking on additional teaching gigs, like private one-on-one coaching for adults and things like that. And over time, I just working a lot, stopped having as much fun with it. So you just didn't get much out of it anymore? Yes. And of course, after time goes on, you kind of get acclimated, right, to a situation. So it wasn't quite as exciting as it was before. Got it. Okay, so you come back, you buy the property. Yes. What happened? I basically said, okay, if I keep doing, again, I was in a similar situation where I was before I went to Japan, it was like, okay, if I keep doing this, this is where I'm gonna end up doing the rest of my life. And I don't wanna do that either, because I was having a good time, but I didn't see that as my future. And so I said, I have to get back, besides my parents are getting older, I don't wanna be away from them because I don't want to miss time with them. So this is still the 90s though, right? This is the 90s. This is like 1990 years. Yeah, so $100,000 in your bank accounts, a lot of money at late 20s or early 30s now? Early 30s. Early 30s, yeah. Yeah, early 30s and in the 90s. I mean, you're doing pretty well. I was doing pretty good. Yeah, and so you move back, we get in the States, and one of the first things you do is... Well, so the thing is, is I come back and now I have no idea what I'm gonna do. So what I ended up doing is running tours for Japanese people. Well, that makes sense. Yeah, so I bring people over, I take them around, we do home stays for kids, things like that. And I thought I was gonna build this little business here, but it ended up being very challenging once I exhausted all the people I knew over there. Yeah. And besides, I decided I didn't wanna do that either. And I got an email from somebody saying, hey, you can sell financial seminars online. And so I started doing that. And I started making phone calls. So I was basically cold calling people on the phone for these financial seminars. And I was selling them and you could make very good money if you sold these seminars. And as it turns out, these seminars were offshore, okay? And they talked about all types of things like, you know, U.S. income tax. I think it's the 13th amendment was never ratified. Yeah, the state's never ratified it. So technically we don't have to pay income. Right, right, right. So there's some very radical ideas being offered. Plus, their whole premise was you're not getting the information that the very wealthy are getting. Like where to invest your money? You're investing in all these things that are bringing you, you know, three, four, five percent. The rich are making like 10, 20, 30, 40% on their investments. They're not paying as much tax and that type of thing. So we had these big seminars that we were driving to, offshore, most of them were in Mexico, but I went to the Bahamas as well. And we go to these big events and it was a good time. And you meet all these investment advisors. And so I started putting some of my money into some of these investments. And some of these investments were so incredible just to show you how naive I was that I ended up selling my triplex and taking my money and putting it in some of these investments. Was it because you were making huge percentages back? Well. Or you were sold that you were already sold. You were sold that I was. It's okay, let's back up a little bit here. Sounds like a Ponzi scheme. Underground in your bank account, what's the triplex cost you back then? How much did you have to put down? I think it was like $380,000 for the triplex. And you put down how much, do you remember? Boy, I don't recall. I think I ended up putting down like 80 grand. Okay. Less than that, I don't recall. So you put a big chunk of the 100K down though is what you're saying. I did put quite a bit of that in there. Okay. So and then you get into this whole investment thing. It sounds amazing. You get sold on this idea. You cash out the place. I'm assuming you sell it for at least what you thought it for. Yeah, I made a little extra money. Obviously after you pay commissions and everything. Right. It was good, but I did make some money. And you take your money now and you start investing in these financial opportunities. And the thing about this thing, this organization and these events offshore was that there'd be like 2000 people there and it seems so legitimate. Of course, there's all these people, right? Yes. A lot of social proof. That's how they get those MLM guys get you into the same town. No, exactly. And it was a bit of beach front property in Arizona for you. It was a bit of an MLM. So I would sell these things and I'd make $1,000 to $5,000 every time I sold something. Wow. So I was making some pretty good money doing this, but come to find out. No, there comes the rub. So let me step back a bit. I did so well with this that I actually ended up on their leadership council of like 30 people. Diamond plate. Yes. So I was one of the top guys. And so one day we're on a call with the co-founders. There was three co-founders. The FBI. I love this story. Hold on, let me tell the story. This is my favorite story that he ever tells. So we're on this call and the three co-founders all of a sudden they disappear from the call. What's happening? And the one co-founder, he was based out of Washington and I could hear his bird in the background and sometimes parrot or something. No, no. And we don't know what happened to it. Come to find out there was a massive raid, one of the biggest IRS type raids in the country. And they took down not only these three guys but a bunch of other people. Fortunately, I never did any crazy tax stuff, okay? But after that happened, every time I saw a black suburban. No, no, no. I was nervous, man. I was very nervous. Now they audited the shit out of you though for a while, didn't they? They did. And it wasn't necessarily because of that but they started to get into that, okay? Yeah, probably because you were just associated. Associated. So we ended up getting out of that organization. Yeah, how much then did you lose a ton of money? Well, I lost all my money. You lost all of it. And then I started to, so I became much more conservative on how I did things. That's a big deal. What a lesson. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot for anybody to save 100K today saving is difficult for people. Especially when you work so hard for it. That's what I'm saying. You live well below your means in this tiny little apartment and you bust your ass for six years. You save all that money. You invested wisely in the triplex. That was a smart thing. Then you sell that and then you dump it all onto this. That must have just ripped your heart out. Oh man, I felt like I got kicked in the gut. Yeah. It's horrible. That's really horrible. Now what'd you do after that? Well, I had started another business selling essentially entities like corporations, LLCs and things like that. So I had a business partner at the time. And we were doing pretty well with that. Actually, that's how I got into internet marketing. Got it. So this is back like nine, I'm sorry, two, can't get my years straight here. 2001, 2002. Okay. So we, So little Sal and little Adam are just starting as a little personal trainer to 24-50. Yes. I started in 98 though. But I had started doing some type of internet marketing. So we started to drive people to landing pages and things like that and capturing leads. This is really early. Yes. This is early in the internet marketing world. Very early in that. And so I started to learn how to do all that stuff. And we're selling these entities. Again, we did that for a few years and then we ended up selling that business. But for some reason, well, I'll tell you the reason. So my business partner wanted to do some day trading. And so we created this account with not a lot of money, like $15,000 for him to do some day trading. And he started doing tons of trades, tons of trades. This was I think about 2015. And what had happened is we never submitted the tax documents. Oh my gosh. And so what the IRS saw was like $2 million worth of trades, but they had no idea what the basis was or how much money we lost or made was. We in fact had lost about $15,000. So we had a loss, but that's what triggered the audit. And so once the audit started, now they started to pull in all our personal returns and also started asking questions about this organization that we were a part of. And believe me, I sweat for a long time. That audit went on for an entire year. It makes sense now while you are still... It's so such a stickler with taxes and finance and a lot of stuff because you got... Right. You learned that lesson for all of us. Yeah, you tasted that. Yes, I did. I tasted that. So I had kind of strayed from where my dad was being super conservative about money. And then I kind of got a little bit loose and throwing darts at a board essentially for making high returns and investments. And I lost. And so I really learned a lot about obviously investing and being conservative in that respect, but also about taxes. I learned a lot about what to do and what not to do regarding taxes. And so not only do I have an accounting background, but I also have this experience of knowing what the IRS is like and what you can and cannot do and where you can push things, but maybe where you shouldn't push things. Definitely, definitely. Now at this time, and I'm gonna go forward a little bit just so that we can go back. When I started training you, I started training you, and I think it was, I don't know, and you would talk a lot about your daughter for the listeners, Doug is one of the best role models if you want to be a good father, really a phenomenal father, extremely patient, very, very involved. And he would talk about his daughter and then one day this adorable little African-American girl comes in and obviously looks nothing like Doug who's very Caucasian and is like, oh, this is my daughter Breanna. And I'm like, huh? I don't, okay. And then I started asking questions and the story you told me was very fascinating about how she became your daughter. Were you dating, can you tell us a little bit about that? And at this time, are you dating her mom? I was dating her mom and come to find out she was pregnant. When you were dating her? When I was dating her. Oh, shit. So before you started dating her, she had gotten pregnant. Yes. And then you still, okay. Yes. So of course my initial response was I got to get out of here. Yeah. But for some reason I ended up sticking around and the baby was born and not only was the baby born, Breanna was born, she was born with a diaphragmatic hernia which is like a hole in the diaphragm. And so all the organs were floating up into her chest and her left lung was way underdeveloped and she had to go right into surgery right after being born. Oh, wow. And so I was there and I went through that and I mean, I started to form a bond and attachment to this little girl and I just ended up becoming her dad. Okay, wait, I wanna go back a little bit to the uncomfortable probably conversation here. So you're dating her mom, you're at month one, two or three. I mean, is it like you look at her and you're like, man, you're putting on a lot of weight. We should. No, actually that. How did this conversation come up? I remember this day very clearly, she comes and I'm sitting on the bed and she says, I have something to tell you. And she was obviously very nervous. And you guys were like, yeah, but how far? It wasn't the burrito. Yeah. How far in are you right now? Like you're a month in, six months in, how long have you been dating her for? Probably a couple months. Okay, so this is really new. This is very new. Yeah. And she sits down and she says, again, it took a while to get this out of her, right? Right. She goes, I'm pregnant. And I'm like, you're pregnant? You're like, shit, it's fine. Whoa. That's exactly my thought. Yeah, yeah. My thought. And it's like, okay, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? Right. Okay, well, you know, you know, so I was just to suck it up and deal with it. So I kind of made that decision right there, but. So, okay, wait, now at this moment though, you think it's probably yours? Yes. Oh, so you didn't know it wasn't even yours? Okay, so when does it come clear that, was it when and she came out and she was black? When? Yes. Holy shit. That's a whole other part of the story. You've never shared that part of the story, huh? Yeah, man, now you get the behind the scenes. Yes. Oh my God. Yes. Holy shit. So up into that point, you just assumed that you got her pregnant and of course you're sticking around, you're a good man. Yeah. And then at this point, you've already trucked nine months plus with this woman or almost a year with this woman. Not almost a year, but. And then out pops a baby that you are certain is not yours, huh? Well, yeah, it's hard to tell though, because she was, because of breathing issues and everything, she was very purple. Oh, so you didn't know yet? Yeah. Okay, okay, you need to get me to the place where you start piecing this together. Well, I mean, of course, I pieced together very quickly after I got a good look. Because you know, because as soon as she was born, because she. They rushed her off, right? Rushed her off, gone, gone. Yeah. Wow. So when you figured, when you found out, like what was that like, when you figured, oh, this is not my kid. Did you think I'm out? Or did you think? Obviously angry. I mean, I had to have stirred up all kinds of shit. Yeah, it did stir up a lot. I think I've suppressed some of these thoughts I had, but. I think so too, because we've never talked about this. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It was definitely an issue. And there was definitely part to me that just wanted to leave. Yeah. For sure. Totally normal. I think most. You know. A lesser man would have. Well, this makes. I don't know what that means. And as difficult as this is to talk about right now, as I can imagine. I mean, it just, again, speaks volumes of the man that you are. Even more reason now to leave. Yes, of course. I can't imagine I would stay. I don't know if I could. Well, I don't know. I didn't think I would be able to do it either. So does that make me a better man? I don't necessarily say it does. Was I just being stupid or what? You know, that went through my head. Oh, I see. Is this really a smart thing to do? And honestly, looking back on it, I don't really know why I stayed. But if I look in hindsight, I don't regret it. Of course. Oh, yeah. Because Breanna, she has added something to my life that I may have never had. Right. For the longest time, I thought, I'll never have kids. You know, I like doing my own thing. I like my freedom. I like to be able to travel. Back at the time, I was going out of the country at least once a year. I loved traveling. And a kid definitely didn't fit into that picture. But because it was kind of almost thrust upon me and I ended up in this situation, I've been able to experience something that I may have never experienced. And it's enriched my life in ways that I can't even describe. I started that, obviously, as fathers, you all know, you start to feel love that transcends any love you've ever felt before. I mean, before I thought, oh, I love my parents more than anybody in the world. And then this little girl just stole my heart. And the love was so intense, sometimes it hurt. And it kept growing and growing and growing. I don't know. So how long? Yeah, you make me cry, Doug. Yeah, so how long? Oh, my God. I didn't know this whole story at all. Yeah, that's crazy. It shows you how much these guys really talk to me. Yeah, whatever. Well, I knew it. And you just shut the fuck up. I asked a very direct question. You could tell you did not want to go there. I know, I know. You've avoided that much detail for sure. You're absolutely right, Adam. Yes, but I got you. Part of me feels like, well, what kind of a sucker was I? Yeah, well, I mean, now look. I don't regret it now, of course not. But at the time, it's like, what was even going through my brain? Well, obviously, it was meant to be done. Yeah, something was meant to be. I don't regret it at all. And you stuck it out with her for how long before it finally, because you guys didn't break that much that long ago. It wasn't that much before a mine pump when you guys were broken up, right? So. Yeah, I think things were really officially over with her mom in 2012, actually. OK, and that is how all this was brought on. Brie was like eight. Oh, so you stuck around. But things had kind of gone south quite a bit in prior years. OK, so you. And you are very much her father, very involved, very much the man in her life. Oh, yeah. Oh, beyond that. I mean, I think there's speculation on our part that when she gets to an age where she has a decision to live full time with her mom or you, I think she'd live with you. Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know if that's entirely true. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. That's debatable. Yeah, you do a great job. But I did not know that. And I didn't know that you. So you stuck around for almost eight years trying to make it work, obviously, before it was obviously. Yes, but I would say after year four things, it kind of degraded a fair amount. So let's take a turn to now the fun talk, which is us. Oh, yeah. So let's talk about, let's start with fitness. When did you, because you had a passion for fitness way before you ever met me. I mean, when I met you, when you hired me as your trainer, you were far more educated on fitness than the average client. You knew a lot. When did that start? When did you fall in love with fitness? Well, as I mentioned before, my brother was into fitness when he got into high school. He got into football and things like that. So he started lifting weights. And I started getting a little bit interested at that time. And then I think it was around, let me think, 1982 or so, or 1981. I can't remember when the Rocky IV came out. With the Russian or the one where he fights Mr. T? No, with the Russian. It was the Russian? Yeah, that's like 84, I think. Oh, is that 84? That's how I'll tell you. Maybe it was Rocky III. Actually, that was July of 2001. You told me it was Rocky III. OK, it was Rocky III. That's when he's fighting Apollo III. That's right, it was Rocky III. Or with Apollo, yeah. So I saw Sylvester Stallone. I said, man, I would love to look like that. Because I thought that was like the ideal physique at the time. And at that time, my dad was also kind of getting into fitness. He bought a membership at a local club, a lifetime membership. And I started working out with my buddy. And I ordered up a bunch of muscle and fitness magazines. I was going to do this. So that's my personality. For sure. If I'm into something, I'm fully into it. So I got all the muscle fitness magazines. I, in fact, I ordered a lot of the supplements off the back covers, thinking this would be the thing that would actually take me to the next level. Yeah, you did the Body for Life challenge with all the supplements. Yeah, all that stuff. But of course, none of that stuff worked. And I'd go work out. Like anybody just getting started, I was pretty young at the time. I put on some muscle when I first got going, but I just plateaued. And I would go to the gym all the time. And I would just not grow. And I was so frustrated. I'd see these other guys in the gym. And they were bigger. And I go, what's going on? What's with them? And I thought it was myself. And I just thought, oh, I didn't have the genetics for it. Now, you're still working out. You're staying active because you never really stop, right? And then what got you to, because I know you were referred to me by a chiropractor. And that's how we met. What got you to that point? Because that's years later, right? Yeah, so I'd worked out on and off over the years. From the time I was about 17 years old up until the time I met you, I'd been working on and off at the gym. So even when I went to Japan, I wanted to gym. And I found a local kind of a community gym. Oh, cool. But I wasn't consistent. But I did like to work out. And a lot of my workout was designed, number one, to build muscle, but I worked out to try to burn calories. So I was not only working out, one of the things I consistently did over my life was cardio, running. I ran and I ran and I ran. And until later years, I got into tennis and I started playing tennis. So the idea was I was gonna burn calories so I could go out and have a good time and eat. But it never seemed to balance out, you know? I was always like 15 to 20 pounds overweight all that time. And even in, I think it was 2001 when I was doing the sales for the offshore seminars. Financial opportunities. I did the body for life challenge. And again, like anything I do, I got the book, I got the journal, I followed all the meal plans. I bought the Myoplex, I think it was called. I took all the shakes, I did everything for three months. And I saw some benefit from that for sure. But yeah, so fast forward though, by the time I had some back issues that drove me to the chiropractor, I don't think I was really working out a lot at that time. But I had a bad back, I went to a chiropractor. He said, you know, I can help you, but you've got some muscle imbalances. And I know this trainer, you should talk to this trainer, his name is Sal. I know this guy. And he can really help you. He wears purple, tiny little underwear. Yeah, you're gonna love him. I don't do that anymore. She got his lat spread, it's amazing. So I went, I went to ABS Fitness. And I met this guy, his hair was perfectly combed. He had a gray ABS Fitness shirt on. I remember he was wearing Adidas sweats and- Now were you enamored? Had a clipboard. Were you enamored right away or did he grow on you? Well, I thought this guy is very professional. He was obviously muscular, so he looked the part. So- Very rocky, very rocky-esque. Yeah, that's the connection. That's the connection. Yeah, that's the connection. Definitely, definitely. Five going on. No, because I'm this type of person. If I'm gonna hire somebody to do something, I want them to look the part. I wanted them, so if he's a fitness guy and he's gonna teach me how to build muscle and that type of thing, I want him to have some muscle. Right. So I saw him and go, this guy, yeah, he's very credible. Very professional with his clipboard and he talked about, did an assessment on me. I was drawing pictures. Yeah. I wasn't taking pictures. Whatever the case may be. And then of course, guess what came out at the end? It's like, okay, we can do 10 sessions or you can do- Close your ass. Close me. Now, okay, now you have a sales background. Yes, yes. So do you smell it a mile away or are you already roped in? Did he rope in dope? I'm not a bullshitter. Did he rope in dope you good or did you use- I deliver- That's exactly right. He provided value for me. And so in my mind, I said, I should do some work with this guy. Okay. And of course, one of my questions is, of course, I want to- So he wasn't a great closer. You just- No, you already could. No, he's probably a very good closer because he built the value and it was just a matter at that point of how much do you want to start with? How many sessions? 10 sessions, 20 sessions, 40 sessions. He had some breakdown, you know? Discounts as you go up. But by that time, I was kind of sold on working with him. And of course, one of my questions was, I didn't want to just correct my back issue. I wanted to build some muscle. If I'm going to do this, I'm going to build some muscle. And so I think he- I said, I'll start with the 10 session package. And so I bought the 10 session package, got going with the training. And after that point, I said, okay, I'm going to continue this. So I bought your 40 session package. And I ended up buying that two or three or four times. I don't remember how many times I bought a 40 session package from you. And then I said to myself, well, I need to start earning some of this money back. You know, one thing I remember specifically was a conversation I had with you early on, Doug, where I had to convince you that you did not need to train lift weights more than twice a week. Do you remember that? Where you thought- Yes. I remember you saying, okay, you can work out twice a week. And I'm thinking to myself, is he, is that right? Is this really? Cause I thought you had to work out, you know, five, six days a week. But probably knowing you, you're also intrigued cause you're like it's different, right? Of course. You tried a lot of things on your own and this is counter to what you've heard. Absolutely. And I felt like I needed to trust him. Yeah. And so I did. He's got a trustworthy face. Well, one of the things when I first met him, the way he was talking, I've told Sal this before, he reminded me a little bit of Tony Robbins. Just a little bit. Cause I had done some, you know, some seminars with Tony Robbins. The big awkward face. Yeah. Yeah, that thing. The teeth. The beak nose. The big nose. The big, big nose. Wow. But anyway, so I ended up signing up for the extra. So you sign up with him. You get the training. He's an amazing trainer. We know that. And- Well, you know, the funny about Doug is that he was convinced. He was a hard gainer. Convinced. And he built, and the funny thing is, he's far from a hard gainer. The guy's built strength and muscle. Well, like you and I, right? We responded very well. We hadn't turned the dials correctly. I thought I was such a hard gainer myself too, right? As many, as many kids think the same thing. So you're training with him. How long is it into your training? Cause now we're getting closer to when Sal and I get connected and when my pump starts to connect. How long have you been training when you finally tell him, hey man, why don't you think about getting this online? Cause at that point, I'm pretty sure Sal, like me, doesn't know how to turn his computer on. So you, how do you, where does that, how do you guys get there? I'm trying to recall how long it took. It was a few months. I didn't say anything about it, but from the time I'd met him, it's like, cause I was very interested in internet marketing and I was trying to do some of my own things at the time, but it really wasn't working out because, you know, it does help to be an authority on a certain subject in order to be successful with that. And I had it in the back of my mind is that this guy's good. He has a good presence about him. He's very knowledgeable. I think he could be a good front man if we were to put something together. So I waited for a few months to pass. I wanted to, that our relationship kind of developed. Oh, I didn't know you thought about this way before. Oh yeah. Oh, so you were planning it. I was calculating. The minute you sold him his pack, your package used this talent. Yeah. No, no, seriously though. And at one point I started to just drop the idea to you. You know, if you ever... God, he's good. You know who the real closer is. He is so good. Exactly. The real closer. Ninja Doug over here. I'll be honest, I was a little nervous that you wouldn't want to do it. Cause one of the things I think a lot of people think as well, I can do it myself. Why would I want to pay anybody? Oh, I was smart enough to know I couldn't do shit by myself. And you were smart enough to probably feed his ego a little bit first. Tell him how attractive he was, how smart he was. All that stuff. Yes, yes. Things like that. And he'd said, yeah, I've thought about doing like an e-book or something like that. And then that was it. That's all I said. No, no e-books. We gotta get you on video. Because this is where things are, right? We need, we need to have video. And so then you guys, then you guys create the muscle switch. Well, actually before that, he says this and I had nothing. I thought, okay, I thought about writing a book or something like that at one point. He said, no, we gotta get you. I had no program. I had nothing. Right, right. And I, maybe it was like a week. And I remember it was just stuck in my head. And I'd always wanted to do something. And I liked Doug, obviously he's a good guy. He's very trustworthy. And I knew that I needed somebody to help me in that space because I had no idea what I was doing with that stuff. And so I went home and for a week, it just was in my head. And we talked about it a couple of times. And he says, if you ever come up with something, let me know. It's literally who told me. You come up with something, he goes, just let me know. And one night I was up late and I'm reading the New England Journal of Medicine and I read the study and I get this idea and I create maps anabolic. And I brought it to Doug and I said, let's test this out. Let's test out the trigger session concept. Let's test out this workout. I kind of train you like this anyway, but we're gonna add these new elements and let's see what it looks like. And then we tested it on, I had a client, Jim that tested it. I had some female trainer friends that tested it. And the results came back. People loved it. And then Doug's like, I'll do the internet part. I'll create the whole thing you just got to get on camera and talk. Okay, so I can talk. So now you guys shoot this. You guys even did a couple of your first little sales funnels that had some success and you're getting a little bit of traction. At what point does Sal mention me to you? When did I come up in conversation? I was like, you think I'm handsome? Wait a minute. And he's an even bigger sucker than I am. This is a circle drill. We'll get him to work for free. He's gorgeous. So, yeah. Actually, I remember Sal, we had been working on maps, I think. I don't know if we'd even started shooting it yet. I remember you showing me your phone in this picture of this guy who on the stage posing. And he goes, yeah, I don't know how this conversation comes up, but I do remember seeing Adam's image. So I don't even remember the context at this time. What that was. I think I remember. So I told you essentially. The program wasn't shot yet. I don't think so. Because Sal and I are talking back and forth. And at this time, he's going through, his mother-in-law is dying of cancer. That's right. And he's doing a lot of reading in marijuana. And we had already heard of- That's how we connected. Yeah, it was over marijuana. It wasn't even over really the maps part. Interesting. I mean, both came in the conversation, but really what started the back and forth was the marijuana talk. I was deep in the cannabis clubs. And at the same time, I was also simultaneously building my Instagram and making my way back into fitness. That was my vision. And then Sal had this thing that he had already created. And we had been already for weeks, bullshit and about marijuana. He would share a study that had just came up and tell me something I'd tell him about this strain or what I'm growing or what I was doing. And we just started to connect and bond on Facebook. And then he sends over one day. I believe it was the muscle switch. Was that the first one? No, it was, it might've been the infomercial, Doug. Yeah, we shot like a 30 minute infomercial. Yeah, it was the long one. It was the long one. I shot it. I'll never forget it. He sent it over to me. And by this time, of course, I'd already heard great things of Sal from other friends that we have to meet, we have to connect. And at this time, Justin and I are doing our thing. I'm funding this app that Justin's basically doing all the work and building. Justin's building this app while I'm working the cannabis club. So him and I have this communication. He knows nothing about Sal yet. And I'm talking to Sal and Sal sends this over to me. I'm upstairs in my living room. I fired up on my TV on the big screen and I watched the 30 minute. And I was just, at that time, I'm already deep in the weeds of Instagram. And what I'm starting to piece together at this time, as I'm starting to grow my Instagram following is the messaging around the most popular fitness people. So the most famous, at that time, when Instagram was first getting started, all the people that had millions of followers were, many of them were young, good-looking fit kids that were presenting a similar message that probably I presented when I was 22, 23. And not to knock them or shame them or whatever, just that they hadn't evolved as trainers yet. Yet they were making, I heard millions of dollars on e-commerce and I was fascinated by it with that. And I saw a huge opportunity for a better, the right message that somebody wasn't presenting because it wasn't as sexy. And you guys did such a good job of packaging this less sexy message, but the right message that people needed to hear. And I called him right after that. I remember, I called him, we got on the phone, we talked forever and said, we got to get together, we've got to meet. And I'll share with you what I'm doing, what I'm thinking, you can share with me what you are. And that was the first real meeting with all of us. And then I mentioned that I said, hey, I want to bring my friend Justin, who I'm working on an app with. I think he could be of value to this conversation. Yeah, cause the way I talked to Doug, cause Doug wasn't there for the first meeting. It was just us. And I remember the way I presented it to Doug, is I said, look, I said, I know, there are people that I know very well who know and speak very highly of Adam. We're both, we have mutual friends. Larry Evans, for example, mutual friend. Jason Marcucci. Jason Marcucci, these are great sales guys, great presenters. Great man too. Great guys, great guys. And they always spoke very highly of Adam. And then I had been talking to him a little bit and that's why I sent you the first map sales video. Cause I thought, if anyone's going to give me a good opinion and good feedback, it's going to be you. And he did. And then we got on the phone. And so the way I presented it to Doug was I said, look, here's a deal. If we're going to sell this program, we need some authority. And one of the best ways to build authority, in my opinion, and I said this early on was, I want to be known for my words and the way I present information. I don't want to be known for the way I look because at some point that's going to be gone and it's not very valuable. I want to be on, I want to be able to talk and present myself, but how are people even going to want to listen to me? Who am I on the internet? I'm a nobody and sure I can get ripped but you put me on Instagram and I disappear compared to everybody else. Well, here you are. You're a pro IFBB competitor. You had a little bit of a falling on Instagram. People already vouched for you. So I didn't really know you very well yet. Those are the things I knew. So I told Doug, I said, worst case scenario, we start a podcast or we work with this guy. He's going to bring an audience and at least give us some authority. We have an IFBB pro who's going to create some authority. I will create some authority. We had not talked about selling maps through any podcast or anything at that point. I just thought connecting with you. No, because our business were separate at this time. We're separate. I said, this would be a great way to build some authority because if I can partner up with someone who's a pro just by association, I've got a little bit of authority. So that's the way I told Doug. And then when we sat down and met, of course everything went out the window because we sat down and it just took off. We sat down, we talked for hours. And I remember, I called you Doug, I think on the way home. And I'm like, do you got to meet these guys? So you got to share Doug now your experience of learning about each of us. So you've learned about Sal now. You're about to go into, you know, this is a marriage, right? We're married to each other, the four of us, right? Very much so now. It's a polygamous relationship. Yes, four wins. So you like Sal already, you've created this thing. You're now considering getting into this marriage with myself and Justin. What is that experience for you? I mean, are you cautious? Are you reluctant? Are you telling Sal behind closed doors? I don't know if this Justin guy seems pretty shady. Pretty fat. I don't know if it was Justin, I said he was shady. Yeah. Like, ooh, another charismatic crazy guy, yeah. Great. So yes, very cautious. For one thing, we'd built Maps Antibolic and it was a very long process to film it, to create the web pages. I mean, I did all of that. Doug did everything. I went and did the WordPress site. I did the membership site. I shot all the film. I edited most of it. Right, you got a lot of work. I put so much in my heart and soul. So this was a baby, a baby. And I just wasn't going to go out and just give this baby to anybody else. So I was extremely cautious. So when I met you guys, I, of course, was looking kind of sideways at you like, OK, who are these guys? Are these people that we really want to share the baby with? But I also knew that we'd been trying to sell Maps Antibolic for up until that time, probably about a year. Oh, it would have been a good year. About a year. Because we launched Maps Antibolic, I believe, was around October of 2013. We did some YouTube videos. Yes, we actually paid for some Facebook ads and things like that. And we also had created the No BS Six Pack formula as our kind of our entry-level program to kind of lead into Maps Antibolic. And we were having some success with it. We were selling, we were selling some, OK? But we weren't going to get rich anytime fast. And one of the things is, I felt we had a really good program. I thought we had the Better Mouse Trap. And there's a saying, if you build a Better Mouse Trap, people will beat a path to your door. Well, that's not true, because if they don't know about your Better Mouse Trap, nobody's coming. So people need to know about it. Just because you have something as great doesn't mean that people are going to go out and buy it. So as I was approached by Sal about this whole podcast concept and bringing you two into the fold on this, I was reluctant. But I also said to myself, well, if things are not going the way I want them to go right now, we may need to shake things up a little bit. Now, do you remember this, Sal? Do you remember what I mean? This is I'm thinking of conversations that we're not around for. Are you and Doug going like, let's just we'll move slow with these guys, and we're not sure? Well, yeah, if you recall, we didn't sell anything for a year on the podcast. It was just the podcast. That's why it was OK was nobody was, I mean, one of the beautiful things about this was. There wasn't anything on the line except our time. Yeah. And again, this was my thought was, worst case scenario, we gained some authority and some visibility. People at least more people are going to see us and know us. And I was confident enough, both Doug and I were very confident enough that I would present myself well enough to where it would be a plus anyway. Obviously, though, when we did the podcast, it was, I mean, after the first podcast, we all felt it was something special. I want to ask Doug this because we were off the rails in the beginning and we had a lot of fun and you are very cool with it. You were very cool at any point where you like, OK, this is a little too much, too crazy. Yes, I was a bit nervous at times. I mean, again, I come from a very conservative family, very conservative parents and upbringing. And some of the conversation made me very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. However, I said to myself, I need to let these guys be who they are. They're obviously new to this game. They're nervous. They're using some alcohol to calm their nerves. A little bit. But they have great chemistry. That's what I saw from day one. I saw a very good chemistry between all of you and it was fun conversation and it was entertaining. And not only that, it was also valuable. So there was, I think that was like a magic combination. If you have something of value to say, something good to say and you say it well and it's fun and entertaining, that's kind of like a magic thing. That's kind of the X factor, right? That can actually make something go viral, if you will. Now, that's just a aspect of this business, right? Obviously, the ability for us to have a conversation on this podcast is obviously the catalyst or the foundation of the business. But what was it like also unfolding? Because you're also getting a marriage with the whole business, right? We're accounting together. We're buying stuff together. We're getting deep into that. We have to scale this business. Do you recall what it was like to watch all of us kind of fall into our roles in the business and was it, you were ever worried about, oh God, like with these three personalities, are they gonna be fighting over who's in charge of this so that like, do you remember all that stuff going through your head? Yeah, that's always a concern. The thing that can derail something good like this is some type of division within the ranks. So if somebody felt like, oh, I'm putting all the time and energy into this and you're not putting time and energy into this or you're getting all the time on the podcast, I'm not getting time on the podcast or we should go buy this crazy thing here and nobody else agrees. If there was that type of division in the group, we wouldn't be here right now. So yeah, I was very concerned about that but as I saw everybody's personalities kind of meld and meshed together, over time I was able to relax a lot. And now of course I'm completely comfortable about this but as I've looked back on this, what I understand now is that it's values driven. So we all possess, even though we're very different in many ways, we all possess core values that we share and they're extremely important to each and every one of us and one of them obviously is integrity. We're all hard workers. We all value creativity and being passionate about what we do. So we have all these values that we share and so that negates any of the small differences that don't really matter. And I think that's true for any relationship whether it's a romantic relationship or something else. As long as your core values are aligned, you can overlook a lot of other things. So fortunately, we have been able to grow in a very positive way together. We've been able to really come together as really kind of a single unit here and everybody just kind of does what they do best and in the end of the day, we all have the same goal and the same outcome that we're trying to achieve. So okay, in six years now, we've been together or coming up on six years, do you have favorite moments of each of us like that you recall, whether that be like a moment of realization that like, oh, I really liked this guy or I really like what we're doing together or really feeling like someone came through. Do you recall, you know, pivotal moments within the six years of feelings for each other like that? Boy, that's tough because there's been a lot of things have happened over the past six years. So I'll just say, for example, with Justin, the thing I really appreciated about Justin is his sense of humor, right? I really aligned with Justin's sense of humor and if people have not figured it out yet, he's a little bit twisted. If you've seen the magic spoon commercial or some of the other things. But I appreciate that. That's kind of my sense of humor as well. I like little things on the edge, a little dark sometimes. So I really appreciate that. But I could also, you know, I don't think it's necessarily individual situations that made me feel the way I do now. I think it's been a cumulative effect. Over time, I've just seen each of you deal with so many different circumstances and the way you handle it and to see that you've done it with integrity. I mean, I see you, Adam, on the phone and I really appreciate your confidence. And the one thing about you is you never let anything get in your way. Whether you can pronounce a word or not, it doesn't matter. You do it, you barrel through it and you have, there's no shame, you know. That is amazing. I think everybody, if you could just do the same thing that Adam does, your life will be so much better. Totally. And your barriers and walls and everything will be broken down. For me, I've been very much a perfectionist. So I've oftentimes waited for that very perfect moment to do things, but that's not when things get done. Cause there's never a perfect moment. It's all about taking some type of action and to be swift with it and just do it. So I mean, I hear you're on the phone with sponsors and things like that. And you're asking tough questions and you have no problem doing that. And I admire that for sure. And then of course, you know, Sal is, I've had a much longer relationship with you, but Sal is this person, he's a very nurturing person. I see how he is with people that are having a hard time and he's got a very open heart. He'll say some crazy things at times, but that's just in fun. But in reality, he's a very soft-hearted person that really knows how to build relationships. And so I've really appreciated that. But I think, you know, all of you, I can say without hesitation that you're all exemplary individuals. I think we all, as different as we all are too, I feel, or at least I feel this way about each of you individually, that there's something I really connect with each of you. Like there's something about each one of you that I see myself in a little bit. Do you feel that same way too? Like when you look at each one of us, is there, like you did that really well, Justin, like you made that, like you guys have that major connection. Is there something in each one of us that you- It's a lot I relate to you for sure, Doug. Right. Yeah, well, I know for you, Adam, you and I, we both share the interest in the business aspect of things, growing a business, scaling a business. And we often have conversations around this. So this is kind of the thing that you and I share a lot of these type of conversations. And of course, Sal, I mean, I really appreciate your interest in health and fitness and the science and everything behind that because I spent years, I read a lot. I mean, I've, for a lay person, I know a lot about a lot of things in the health and fitness space. And I really connect with Sal on that is like getting in kind of the nerdy aspects of fitness and health and really understanding the human body and how to optimize it. So these are things that I really share with Sal. And I guess that's just one thing, but there's a lot of things. No, I agree. I think that's something that we all have, right? There's something, I see that with all of you guys, like for sure. Yeah, there were, as you're talking, there were two moments specifically for me where I said, oh, this is gonna be a good thing. The first, and a lot of people might not know this. We've talked about this on the podcast, but initially when we started, there was another host who started with us. We never aired those episodes, but it was Craig, our friend Craig, and he had the largest social media following out of all of us. He had the most authority. He was a signed athlete and nobody talked about it, but I think all of us kind of thought, okay, he's gonna bring us the initial audience. And then we had that phone call where he said, I'm not gonna do this, guys. We can't air these episodes. I'm gonna drop out. He's afraid of losing his sponsorship money. And when we got that, I might have been through text if I'm not mistaken. We got that text. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, I'm gonna need to get on the phone and rally the troops and motivate everybody because I don't wanna stop doing this. And we got on a conference call, all of us. And before I could say a word, Adam already had said that, right out the gates. All right, we're gonna keep going anyway. Let's just, Justin's like, I'm on board. And right at that moment, I realized like, oh, this is gonna be a good thing. Cause that was, at that time, it could have been a crushing, it felt like it could have been a crushing blow. There goes our exposure. Yeah, at that time, that was the best thing we had working for us. Totally. And the second thing was about a year into the podcast when we decided that we were going to sell our programs because you guys had a nutrition survival guide that we had created. Doug and I had created Maps Anabolic. There was no question that we were gonna sell the programs and it was gonna be all of ours. It was no, it's mine, it's yours, you get this percent. There wasn't even a discussion. It was, we're gonna do this and that and it was just, that's the way it's gonna be. All of us understood and valued each other's value. So there was never, there's never been that question where it's like, but I created this. I spent all the time and I'm gonna get, all of us were like, let's do this. It was a very rare thing. Very rare and those are the two, those are the two things that stand out to them for me. Like those two things happen and I was like, oh yeah, this is forever. This is a big thing. Do you remember standout moments for you, Justin? With Doug? No, just in general with the business. I mean, I know we've transitioned from the talking of Doug's story and the business, but we're here now. Yeah, I mean, again, that's a big one is once we kind of dwindled it down to the three of us and like how that whole dynamic was gonna go, we were like kind of thinking about the flow and like how we were gonna get traffic and, but honestly, like I had no reserves about it at all. I just felt like it was so much fun. We were just having so much fun in the beginning and we had so much in common. We had so much to tackle. I felt like there was never a shortage of conversations that were gonna happen after that. So I just, it was kind of a strange thing. I just knew it was gonna take off. I remember us talking amongst each other about like why we weren't bigger than we were, you know? That was like always the conversation. And I firmly believe that, you know? I really did grand you. You have to be a little delusional. That's what they say, right? It's true. You have to be a little delusional for sure. I just loved, I loved the group synergy, the confidence, like I could feed off of you guys because I, you know, it's just when you're around people that excel in things, it just elevates you. Everybody in here has elevated me as a human being and that's just like, it's one of those things. It's such a rare combination of different pieces that all kind of came together. But that's just something I've only felt that one or two other times. And that was with the best teams I've ever been on that we won championships with. And this has that same dynamic. Right, selflessness, right? Do you have any moments like that? So I have this moment that I share, you know, every once in a while when this question gets asked. Like, so I get a question asked pretty common when I get interviewed. And it's, you know, when, when did you guys feel like you made it? You know, like, when did you like feel like you had arrived or you had made it or the business? And, you know, it's a, it's a really a special moment for me when this happened. And it speaks to all of our personalities at the same time. And that was, I was having a conversation with Cassie and Cassie for the listeners that don't know or runs customer service on the, on the back end. And Cassie, Cassie fields anywhere from 50 to about a hundred emails a day. And, you know, people that go through our programs if you have questions or you don't know what you're doing or you're struggling with something or you can't do an exercise, you can always email in and we have support. And, you know, and we have software so we can see how many programs somebody owned and when they bought them and all these details, right? So she's having a conversation with, with a customer that owns three of our programs. She's currently going through one of them. I don't remember which one it was. And, you know, Cassie's responding to her and she references something that you or I said in the podcast. I don't remember it was me. I think when I tell the story, I tell it as me but it might have been you. Like, oh, when did, you know, Sal said when you do this or this or that like that that you should do this, you know? And the response that the lady gave was who the hell is Sal? You know, or who the hell was Adam? I don't remember which one it was. And that was a really special moment for me. And the reason why that was such a special moment and how it speaks to our personalities was that one of the things that where I knew we had something very special. And back to your story with Craig is that the four of us never wanted it to be about us. We didn't even want it at all. It was the desire always was, can we build something so valuable that it'll live on well beyond us and be greater than any of us? And none of us wanted the limelight. None of us wanted to be insta-famous or be the celebrity on YouTube. Like, nobody wanted that. And when that moment happened that we had somebody who had, you know spent a few hundred dollars on our business and been with us for over a year and didn't know who the hell Sal or Adam was. That was a very special moment for me. That to me signified that we were, we're in the direction or we're on our path of what I thought was so important if we were gonna build something as grand as we all believe from day one, it would be. Which is, it is, it's bigger than who we are. It's bigger than us. It's bigger than any of us individually. And I think that only works when the owners or the creators want that. And that doesn't happen a lot. And it doesn't seem to, it seems to be very rare today more so than ever. I feel like, the formula today that's taught to this generation coming up is build yourself as insta-famous and it needs to be all about you. And even all these little things that you go, these influencer groups and shit, they encourage you to be on your stories all the time. It's all about you, it's all about you. One thing that I loved about all you guys is it was never about any of us. The stories you're all sharing about the programs and then with Craig and nobody wanting to be the man. Shit, we didn't even have a real formal minutes, CMO, CFO type of conversation to like three years of the business. So we were told we had to. Which by the way, any business professor would tell you that's like- The death sentence. Right, they would say to you right away, like you wanna fail, don't be organized. And we didn't, but it's not because we were disorganized. It was that nobody cared to assert themselves into a role and say, I'm this position, you're that position. We all just, we wanted to be better. We wanted it to be bigger and better than us. And yeah, that moment was a big deal for me. It was a really big deal. And I remember going like, this is cool. This is cool that somebody has invested in something that we have created and put out there into the ether. Has no idea who we are. Has no idea who we are. That's so awesome. Well, one last thing I wanna say, Doug, is that you're silent, but very supportive, strong. Leadership on the back end is really phenomenal. And it's so effective, okay? It's because what you're dealing with, and you know this better than anybody, you're dealing with three headstrong, kind of, you know, whatever word you wanna use, alpha, you know, bulls. And had you gotten in front of us and told us what to do, what not to do, and how to do it, it would have never worked. You did it so effectively, so subtly that I can only recognize it in hindsight. I can only look back. It's true. I look back and go, Doug was very quietly guiding and shifting the show and allowing us to develop our voices and what we say and how we do it in a way that was so effective that none of us even noticed. No, he has his end message. No, I have to add to that, right? He has this very, a very subtle way. And again- He's like a sensei. Well, yeah, it speaks to his brilliance of knowing that. Like, here's something that like, and I have this too. Sal's worse than me, though, I believe. Like, we both have these personalities where even if it's what's best for us or what we should do, if you tell us that you're gonna, you have to do it, we just, it's in our blood to go against the grain. So I feel like Doug knew that early and never did that to either you or I. Never, or Justin either, none of us. Like he never said, stop doing that or that's bad or never took a hard stance. He would do these subtle like, you know, I think we should, you know, pull back a little bit. Or read a review. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we should pull back a little bit on being back to fitness. Yeah, or maybe stop with the masturbation joke so much. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think we should lighten up on the politics, you know, like, so he would give these real subtle, and of course, with the natural response of, no, I think it's good, Doug, you know, that's why I think we should do it. And we would, and we'd push back and he would allow the pushback and then he'd circle back again and kind of drop it again, circle back again. And then eventually I feel like we would go, we would conform. And, you know, so I feel like he's been masterfully steering this ship this whole time, but doing it in a very silent and subtle way. Oh, totally, like a sensei, 100% like a sensei, so. I think part of it is I hate being told what to do too. So you relate. So I relate, and I know if you tell me to do something or tell me I'm doing something wrong, I'm not gonna respond well to that. I may end up conforming at some point, but I'm gonna be resentful. So ultimately, I always think the best way to get people to change is to make it their idea. And so if you can just provide enough fodder to create that feeling that, oh yeah, maybe we shouldn't be doing so many dick jokes, then that's the way I like it because then that's when real change will take place. It's a beautiful thing when you know that the other person or persons are, they have a deep desire to be better and to grow as individuals because you're right. If you surround yourself around other people, and this just goes for anyone listening, not even just talking about business and just friendships and relationships. If you surround yourself with other people that have a deep desire to be better, eventually they'll get to that and pushing them in that direction is not the way you need to go with that person. That person is already seeking growth, seeking to be a better person. Eventually they'll get around to it and whether you put a lot of thought into knowing that or thinking about that. It's wisdom. Yeah, it definitely. Yes, it is. He's our wise one. That's definitely the right word, wisdom. Well, this has easily been my favorite interview. Well, thank you. Easily my favorite interview that we've done. Yeah, a lot of stuff I didn't know. I'm glad we did it. Cool insight. Yeah, it was kind of off the cuff idea, but I tell you what, I learned stuff today, so that was cool. Yeah, man, thanks for doing it, Doug. Well, thanks for having me on the show. Yeah. Super producer, Doug. Yeah. Awesome, look, you can find Mind Pump on YouTube. So find us, Mind Pump Podcast. You can also find all of us on social media. We're on Instagram and Parler. You can find Justin at Mind Pump, Justin, me at Mind Pump Sal, Adam at Mind Pump, Adam, and Doug at Mind Pump, Doug. And if you follow Doug on Instagram, you can see a lot of the behind the scenes stuff. What a producer needs to do to create and produce the number one fitness podcast in the world. Boom. Nice. Your skin. Makeup. Yeah. Why you wearing makeup? Yeah. Wow. Oh my God. I got a new character I'm developing here, so we'll see how he does. Is it a samurai devil? Yeah, it's something, we call him Satanio. That's his name, and you guys will see it down the road.