 Podcasters round table round 95. What's news in podcasting new news in podcasting? What's up everybody? It's just the round table today, and I mean by the round table I mean the core three. I guess almost need force. I could say the core four. It's like a rhyme Anyways, let's get right the tripods Ironically, I'm got my monitor on a tripod today. So very cool Daniel J. Lewis. Welcome back. Thank you I I wonder which direction will land on some of these issues We've got a lot of stuff to talk about but some fun things to talk about for sure We're gonna pull out a few things that we've seen in the news that we thought that this Audience would enjoy catching up on once in a while. You know, we don't talk about an issue So much as I guess all these news items bring up issues or we just think it's really important that this audience would be Interested in that news so Dave Jackson welcome back Yeah, Dave Jackson school of podcasting.com or maybe it's just that we have issues and we do have issues It is it's a therapy session for ourselves No new round table here today Traveling to New Orleans all week and solo parenting has left me a little behind But if it's not gonna stop the round table shout out to all the Single parents man. I don't you are heroes Seriously hardest job on the planet. All right What's news in podcasting? What's the biggest news? What should we start with Daniel? I think we should start with Apple's news. They're having the WWDC Conference while we're recording this but it's probably over by the time you're listening to this if you've downloaded the podcast but this is their worldwide developers conference for developers of apps and services for Mac for iOS for TV OS for all of the Apple Platforms and this is also when Apple comes and announces and previews certain things So they announced new hardware coming like new Mac books new Mac book or new iMac pros which is pretty cool, but especially interesting to podcasters iOS 11 contains a redesigned podcasts app that It's it's available in a beta for Licensed developers And it has some interesting major changes to it that I think are worth talking about Are they are they just pretty changes or are we getting actual functional changes? Well, I think first of all it is a prettier change that the layout is a lot cleaner There's a lot more space in it and overall in iOS 11 the fonts are a little bit bolder Which I appreciate because I think that thing of you know, let's make a barely gray text That's super thin lines on a solid white background. It'll look beautiful. No people can't read it Stop doing that people but the new podcast app and iOS 11 bolder text a little bit bolder and the layout a little bit more spaced out a nicer flow, I think to some of the things the The couple big changes that I see are Well, first of all, this could be an earth-shattering change for some people But I'm not positive. This is a final change So far what we've seen of the beta version. There's no new and noteworthy How can there be a world? How can there be a world without new and noteworthy? How will I launch my podcast? Hey, you'll launch but you will clearly not be successful. That's it there are however some things that I think are more user focused on Suggesting relevant podcasts to users like it seems front. There's this today screen or not today But that's the app store. There's a today in the app store There's a listen now screen on the podcast app and it's a little unclear exactly how the podcasts in that are populated It seems to maybe be a combination of podcasts you have podcasts you've been listening to as well as top podcasts Then there's your library and if you click in Podcasts that you've already subscribed to or you're looking at podcasts in your library So you're not in the catalog or in your library It does recommend other podcasts. You might like probably based on what's already in your subscriptions That's the key because for me. I'm still my favorite way to find podcasts The reason I had 80 podcasts when I first started podcasting is because every time I was in the iTunes store now It's on desktop. It's much bigger. They have more real estate or always show you, you know Everyone here knows the if you like this or people other people who like this are listening to this Whatever and sure enough. I was like, yep, that's all relevant to me click sub sub sub The store needs that or the app Something like that. So that you're saying this will hopefully be something like that. Yeah, some kind of suggestions From what you already subscribed to which I think is great because the the moment to suggest you subscribe to another Podcast is not really when you're trying to decide to subscribe to the podcast. You're looking at You know what? I'm gonna totally derail this because it just reminded me of something I mentioned I was away for work and I was doing a Livestreaming I worked with the one of podcasters that we one of the hosts we have at work has a really successful show and he I You know, I think overcast Recently just started you could do advertising, you know Any podcast you do advertising in the app and he was telling me that he tried this I think it was like 200 bucks whatever the you know that it worked out to be or maybe he spent 200 bucks Anyways like in one week or a month He got 250 subscribers and the key was it was only showing his ad to people first of all, they're in an app They're ready to subscribe right and they're so basically suggesting His show and he paid for it, but it's in his category science and medicine So it's extremely relevant to people who were browsing that or already have Podcasts in that category. So I don't know that is something to look into if you have a few extra funds It might be the best it makes so much sense to me and his returns have been insane now Whether they stick around or not but the key is to get them to click something where they're introduced to your podcast, right? So I don't know seems really cool But that remind me of that but you guys you should check that out if you're a podcaster Do you think Apple might offer that also in the podcast app? I mean Apple doesn't do a lot with money when it comes to podcast, but I think it would be great It's it's a nice opportunity, right? You can do that in things like Twitter and Instagram And I think when it's highly relevant to you and it's targeted at something, you know Like you're saying if it's coming off of you something you've subscribed to already or in a category that you're browsing. I Think it's good. I think it's effective and I think it's it can be relevant I mean, here's that I was just looking at my own YouTube stats for advertising I was trying to see what is working because my YouTube is pulling in a couple hundred a month off of Google ads And you were like who watches these things? How does this happen? Who's clicking on these banners? It's all coming from that Pre-roll ad that you can skip which I love because the user has a choice But it's relevant enough that enough people watch the 20 seconds 15 seconds And I get a tiny piece of that which is adding up to a couple hundred dollars Which means a lot of people are consuming those so when they're relevant they work well and Apple is already in that Placement advertising space like in the app store they now sell ads So you can rank for certain search kind of like with Google adsense or Google Yeah, add add words. I mean so for example in the iOS app store I search for restaurant right and the first result I get is what restaurant question mark and it's an ad For some app in the app store and then there are the search results Yeah, I could see Apple may be doing that for podcasts as well And boy could that be not only a great opportunity for them to monetize something They're not otherwise monetizing, but it could be a great opportunity for podcasters. How do you guys? But do you? Does it weird to then have ads in this this space that has been open and free does it feel like an invasion Dave? Do you do you like it? Does it feel good? I like it because it is a way not, you know Obviously, you know, you got to pay for it. But if you're trying to get at the top of iTunes Here's a way open up your pocketbook and you know as opposed to How do I compete with 99% invisible and all the this American life and all that other stuff? You know the question is going to be is is it worth it? You were talking about overcast actually played that card I ended up paying forty seven cents per subscriber. Hey, that's that's great as far as I'm concerned Yeah, it was not cheap, but I Just was like I had a good month I was like hey, let's see what because I read it somebody did an article on this and Show that they got a fair number. Just to give you my stats. I had 3898 people I'm sorry 64,150 views of those 3898 tapped on it and according to them 167 subscribed so And that's in the podcast or in the overcast app right now and That as well as where the ads are currently in the app store and where they could if they do this place the ads inside the podcast app it's all relevant to searches and Categories so it's not while you're playing podcasts. So the ads aren't saying, you know, hey, it looks like you're starting a letter I'm clippy. I'm here to help you write a letter. It's not that kind of thing, but it's Suggesting relevant that just like with Google basically the way we see ads inside of Google I think it could be cool if they bring that to the podcast app, but you know, what's going to happen is That the guys with all of the money are going to invest and there won't be any opportunity for the little guy Well, that's what I hope. I mean, there's hopefully is a way to make the playing field a little more level, you know, man I like it You know, I don't know. I don't know how you do that. I mean, I don't know how overcast is doing that I mean, we'll see with overcast Gimlet media probably doesn't care about overcast But the independent podcaster does and the people who use overcast are going to be far more likely to be Discerning in what a good niche podcast is at least that's my perspective Why but I mean why what do you I mean Gimlet's got plenty of people listening on overcast Yeah, but Gimlet as a company doesn't really care probably about If they're smart they would it doesn't all you want subscriber, I don't care where the heck they come from I just want the sub Yeah, and this is all conjecture too. Yeah, what is that? That's what we'd what's what this round is for we're here to have fun Make it up. No in case you're wondering on overcast prices range from $75. It depends on what category like kids and family's $75 Business is 300 wait a minute $75 gets you what a month So you get a month of ads of ads see I like that if it's like So if you can just set a price says if it's a hundred bucks No one can buy more or less, you know, and it's in it randomly generates or something I mean then you couldn't buy your way to the top it'd be great Yeah, so they say like kids and family 75 dollars for a month You're gonna get somewhere between 350 and 500 impressions. I'm sorry taps So I guess I mean somebody's gonna tap on your ad and they say probably anywhere from 30 to 40 subscribers so That's where you have to go and say, okay well if I get worst-case scenario 30 subscribers and I paid 75 dollars for that that is 40 cents a subscriber And if you want to check this out yourself overcast.fm Slash ads a DS And that's where you got to go is that you know We could I I can I don't know anything about it So I want to talk about it, but then you get into Facebook ads and things like that this I liked because I'm what you know, I click away at somebody who's using overcast and if they subscribe I now have a subscriber and overcast so I kind of like that a little better than Facebook where I've got to get them To my website. Hope they know how to subscribe. Hope they're listening to podcast. I was like, no This is a podcast listener. Well, that's the key and that's why I think it's working so well People are in a position to subscribe to a podcast and we always talk about get them to your email lists So then you can ask them these different things because they're more likely when they're reading email They can click through but you're in the app man Like do you that's why it always worked in the iTunes store because I was already shopping for a new podcast And it's here's 10 of shows of the you know different shows that I that I probably will like There's some that bell means it's time for the winners round Dave's telling what they won Is that Dave Dave's at your old phone such your actual rotary That's Dave forgetting to turn off his chat on his website my apologies people want to talk to you now Dave There are some other interesting changes with the podcast app and this is in the first beta So anything we talk about could change before it's actually released this fall but it seems The browse section is where you now would go to find a podcast and that's the catalog is under browse and It seems like there's no new and noteworthy in there. There is a there are some featured banners across the top there are Some different sections To it nothing that's named new and noteworthy like there are partner providers there It's very Empty seeming right now as far as the list of category. Okay. I've got here top charts Providers all categories featured and then the bars across the top that's very minimal and So you the only image you see when you tap on browse are those banner bars across the top and those are Only Apple selects those to put in where are you seeing these? This is I found a video on YouTube if you search for podcast app iOS 11 demo or hands-on you'll find some different videos that show some of this and You throw the link in the chat and I'll put the show notes as well when you get a chance Yeah, just in case you guys are listening to this you want to see this Sorry there Daniels fast And top charts would be the same kind of top charts were used to but I think the couple really interesting things for podcasters, so that's kind of podcaster consumer or podcast consumer focused for podcasters There may be some new opportunities to group your episodes There's a presentation happening on Friday tomorrow at the time of this recording that will talk about new feed formats for seasonal or for cereal content and they use the podcast cereal as an example and It separates the episodes into seasons visually inside the podcast app That's good. That's probably going to be something that you set in the feed and Looking at cereals podcast feed. There doesn't seem to be anything that's making it do that no new tags Nothing unless they're reading the titles, which I really hope it's not an episode title-based thing But most likely it's not it most likely Apple just use their editorial powers to go in and use that as an example and manually Adjust it, but this could be an opportunity for podcasters to then group their their seasons Like if it's a seasonal show of any sort that could be cool. Otherwise it groups by year. It seems I'm wondering Does it doesn't mean I can make a playlist similar to YouTube? Like what you know for people who don't do episodes I really know like a Serial type content like a story like where you start from one to another or even a season like You know once or something like is it something I could just I mean obviously if we're gonna have control over it We could probably get as creative of as we want within their parameters And I'm trying to think who else how else would you use this if we just want to make up stuff, you know From imagination something can playlists Well like right now for people who have the iTunes site manager access Which is a special thing for certain providers on iTunes. You can on the podcast level you can tag Different podcasts together if you're running a network and you can make pages that display those Podcasts that all have that same tag. That's not individual episodes though, but maybe there would be something like that where maybe We'll have a new RSS tag. That would be something like iTunes Colin series and in there we put a name and any Thing any episodes that have the same series name then get grouped together. Maybe this is all conjecture We really don't know and Apple will be announcing it tomorrow. I'm also wondering too if if that happens Is it going to then like be at the top of your feet because it's it gets buried, right? I mean and what if you're season 5? I mean, I guess if I don't know it seems like something could get buried It would be interesting if you could stick it to the top only like you could affect iTunes order I mean so could be in play too Speaking of RSS feeds. It's a perfect time. The round table will be at podcast movement So if you're going we all have a code. So just pick your favorite round round table or Ask us what your codes for 10% off is but if you're going to be there you have to Come see us. We're going to do a session all about RSS feeds You've seen something like down the round table before we're just going to make it better And if you are curious what is going on inside an RSS feed You should be RSS is the lifeblood of your show It's the engine if you want to be able to lift the hood on your car and work on it Giving yourself full control. We're going to help you with that We're basically going to turn all that gibber jabber into English that you can understand Dave do you speak in our language? RSS Dave speaks RSS. That's it. I Can I used to know how to swear in German and count to I think 10 maybe All right, well, we'll get Dave to do that. Let's do a countdown backwards Dave's gonna be treating you backwards, but show up podcast movement 7 2017 August 23rd or something like that if you're going just come see the round table If you're not get a promo code come out and join us if you're close You know if it doesn't cost too much money, but yeah, we'll be there. So that'll be a lot of fun Looking forward to it You know for podcasters also one of the cool things coming to both iOS 11 and Mac OS high Sierra, which Continue with yeah, the dumb names, but it's finally support for Web RTC, which is the technology that makes things like Zincaster and cast and Blab God rest its soul and other services like that that were all browser based don't require a plug-in or an Extension that make that kind of thing possible inside the browser That's finally coming to Safari from Mac OS and to Safari on mobile. So what that excites me about is that it means the possibility of using Zincaster and the simplicity the ease of using Zincaster could be Significantly lower in the future because it could mean that Zincaster arena or whatever It could mean that then your participant doesn't have to install an app at all on their iOS device They simply click the link and use their browser to connect with you. It could also mean better support for Leaving voicemails on websites kind of like a speak pipe or something like that Without having to require an extra app. There's all kinds of great potential for podcasters I think with Apple finally bringing web RTC support to iOS especially Yeah, that actually that's exciting. I do like that Dave is being silent because he's putting his promo code in the chat What's it? I snuck it in there Good job. Oh, there goes Daniel. I don't I'm too far away from my keyboard today I'm trying to I'm doing for the people I'm trying to limit the the hiss here But all right anything else left in Our Apple speculation it's we guess we should have done this tomorrow. We consider doing tomorrow, but it's right The new Mac Pro looks interesting It does if you have 5g's to begin with now, I'm not complaining about that at all if you are a pro It's the machine you you know, I mean you can get into that, but I want it But I'm not I can't pay that well, you know A phonic will process your audio a whole lot faster if you've got 18 cores or 24 cores However, many cores that's available and you know writing your show notes and WordPress will be so much faster 64 32 gigabytes of RAM and no, I mean I you know I need it I actually had a video be screaming fast and if you if you do Instagram.com slash podcast. I'll be follow me along you get to see that I smashed my iMac screen I mean who drop an iPhone Drop an iPad but a screen an iMac. How does that even happen? But I think it was a subconscious move right after the announcement I'm like this one. Oops. It was dead already if you follow my stories. You already know it was dead I was using it as a dumb screen, so it's time to upgrade, but yeah I mean and along with that there are more affordable iMacs regular iMacs coming out more MacBook So if you're you know if you're into the Apple thing tons of stuff came out of Apple announcements yesterday You know I want to know a crazy thing That's a little bit weird for Apple to start supporting this late in the game when it almost feels like it's dying QR codes You are good. They have enough to stuff life. I mean I use them here and there like oh I have to use your QR code to get in this thing, but That they said for our friends in China, so I don't know if it's a case where they're really Big overseas in Europe and China things like that that maybe they're all about it But when I was watching the Whatever it was the presentation which was fun. It was like a wrestling match. They'd have somebody come out Okay, I'm gonna go back to Tim and they toss out the the clicker and then somebody else would come in and Just this constant round table of people but the guy that was talking about QR codes There's a lot of stuff that was really cool. It just had nothing to do With podcasting unless you're doing video stuff the the graphic stuff and they showed a virtual reality demo that was Mind-boggling where the person was fighting Darth Vader and all sorts of other fun stuff and when I see stuff like that That's not podcasting really let I still get excited because Eventually that stuff will trickle down and get cheaper and it just shows you that there is Innovation still going on so and new content for Dave to make a new show about that's it It's like the VR podcast coming from Dave. I'm sure there's stuff. So there's plenty out there I'm sure it doesn't mean you're not gonna start another and dominate Speaking of new show. How about that Alex, Inc. Yeah, that's not gonna last. I give it one season I would love it glass. I watched the preview. It's come on. It's trying to make it a comedy But it's the guy from scrubs. Yeah, and where's he been lately? Yeah, I love Zach Zach graph is awesome dude I mean if I hope I'm wrong and it succeeds it succeeds. Oh, we have we have a model for this We got Mark Maron to show about a podcaster kind of the same thing except that shows really good I've seen the previews for this show startup It's based on the show startup the podcast which was fantastic basically launched the Gimlet network I don't think if that had been successful, they would have had the success that they're having But that was serious this they're trying to make vanilla for a 7 o'clock Friends time slot where you know where it's not time shifted. I don't know it just One season I'm calling it. It's gonna be interesting to see if Because if you know, he's off to make a podcast Now we're all gonna tune in probably to see how good or bad it is But I'm like thinking of Joe Schmo That's what I mean. It's not gonna land if they're gonna go who what's the podcast? I mean, we always exactly always talking about all the time like one of my pitches is that Unlike television that needs millions of people to watch to keep going a podcast You find a few hundred people and PS no one's usually turning off the pipe You think the TV that TV executive and that's really fickle and do you think that's really going to? Garner what they need in prime time For a show, it'll be interesting to see I'm I'm curious to see you know cuz dog on it He is a handsome man, but is that gonna be enough to carry the show? Yeah, no more people will know about podcasting that's a good thing. Yeah, that that's good and I Not for long. I think that they they chose the wrong story to tell with a show if it's going to be about podcasting There I think so many better stories that could be told about people starting a podcasting business or bootstrapping or you know The stories that Alex told in startup I Think for us who have been podcasting longer than Alex who know the podcasting industry better than Alex I Think that we probably cringed a lot listening along the way and realizing Alex if you just called one of us You could have saved yourself like a hundred hours of work and you're chasing the wrong tree and all of these things and so with with this it's I Think it's the media's crush on these public radio people That it's the people who are famous get more famous and that's not to say like I want some kind of Socialist empire or something like that. I'm not trying to make a political statement But nonetheless It will be interesting to see a show That doesn't merely mention podcasts, but it's all about someone trying to build Podcasting maybe they'll even talk about things in the show like saying, you know, I'm trying to explain to people What a podcast is and they just don't get it. Here's the way I'm trying to explain it or here's what I'm doing There could be all kinds of opportunities that they could use the show that could really help the podcasting industry They picked it because it was successful as a podcast because people Attached to the personal story and bringing his wife and the real struggle. This is a comedy from what I've seen sure It's gonna tell that story. Yeah, but it's not gonna land and the target audience here is ABC viewers at seven o'clock. I mean like or watch this before you watch the tonight show like I just don't see it grabbing on I just hope it's not Yet another mainstream way to make fun of podcasting like feels like a little it does feel a little back Look at these crazy little guys trying to do their company. Oh, dude. How yeah, so I'll be interested to To see, you know, how they're yeah And they could easily do that with the kind of typical public radio attitude right now is oh you cute little Podcasters we're doing your little thing playing with your little toys But now that we the public radio people are here now Podcasting is legitimate and I could really see the show doing that same thing Yeah, because I mean he had a very successful career at you know working for NPR and this American life and then money Planets and all the other so he had a a decent, you know batting average going in It'll be understood to see if they Spotlight that at all the fact that here was this guy or are they gonna paint him like Al Bundy and you know shoe salesman turn podcaster Honestly, I think the fact that they're trying that they're spinning it to a comedy that something wasn't a comedy before It's just that's that's where it falls down for me doesn't land, but we'll see I'm thinking of doing an insane thing related to this Yeah, you know a couple of relevant domains. Oh I'm thinking of maybe doing a fan podcast About the TV show about a guy who started a podcasting network There you go my approach and this is the thought here and I should do it If you only have to do it from one season and you can organize it nicely What I'm thinking though is to talk about it from the perspective of someone who does run a Podcasting business and has been running it for a while But I know that there's a significant difference where we're as Alec went and sought funding and the rest of us Actually paid for it ourselves and didn't need funding to build a successful podcasting business explored yeah, I explored a Podcast a fan the only fan podcast no to I thought about to one was based on Mark Maron show but it was really just using it as a Jumping off point to talk about other issues To was another show, but I did think about that too But yeah, I'm like I'm saying man It's not much of a risk because you know I have to do it very long what's interesting about that is Much as there are many shows with the our favorite catchphrase of course of on fire There are a lot of shows with WTF in the name or You know different variations of that so I could see if you did a show on Mark Maron I'm not sure you'd have to somehow put that in the name or something or call it boomer lives or something But that's not gonna make any sense to somebody who doesn't watch the show Yeah, I don't I don't see this I don't see this TV show spinning off a lot of fans that are like I gotta listen to the podcast about that right You know once by the way, and you want to check out if I do launch something There's no website right now, but the domain one of the domains. I have is Alex podcast comm This is the least evergreen thing we've ever put out there It doesn't even exist so it doesn't it's nothing there now We'll be talking about it and saying oh, it was such a horrible thing Well anyways, we can revisit on the next new show. I could be totally wrong. I mean I guess for podcasting I hope I am but we'll see What else? What else what else? Hey, have you guys heard? MP3 is dead shut your mouth Don't say that. I've been screaming on Twitter like just shut your mouth like who's falling for this There are a couple of this is the the new Leo Laporte podcasting is dead click bait But what happened what we'll address it because if you are seeing these things and you are worried because people put out bad articles Daniel what what really happened? I'm not a lawyer don't play one in the podcast so I can't explain it fully but what did happen the the one fact I do know is Fraunhofer is the main company that owns patents to MP3 encoding and decoding technology So all of this time that we've been encoding MP3's Technically some kind of payment needed to be made to Fraunhofer now There's the lane encoder which goes about things in a different way, but the end result is the same nonetheless Fraunhofer was the main company They chose not to renew their patent for the MP MP3 their encoder and thus they also chose to stop Licensing their Fraunhofer MP3 encoder That's the actual fact. There are different interpretations of this And I don't really know which of these is actually correct But one interpretation is this means now everyone can use Fraunhofer for free I don't think so the other interpretation is This means that now anyone can create an MP3 encoder and not worry about getting sued I think that's definitely one correct interpretation the other thing the other interpretation is That are we gonna see Fraunhofer in audacity this is quite like yeah, I don't know Because it doesn't matter like issuing licenses, but does that mean if they don't issue licenses That doesn't mean their code is now open source if they said we're stopping issuing licenses Fraunhofer MP3 encoder is now open source. Then we would see it in audacity, right? But this caused people to freak out. Yeah, right. They thought that now MP3s can't be used or that it wouldn't be supported, right? So Well, that's not true. It's amazing the the weird things that that people come across and they you get these really bad headlines I know Mike Dell told me he said that somebody had contacted him and Said that you know streaming was the only way to go and MP3s were illegal and stuff like that You just kind of go who where are you reading this stuff? It just doesn't you know make any sense. So Yeah One of the thoughts with Fraunhofer on why they chose not to renew is they said something not I don't think they directly said MP3 is dead, but they did basically say something like we feel that MP3 is On its way out and technology is on its way in that's why yeah, let me guess let me guess AAC is on the way in Because that's the other patent they own Bologna don't buy into that. There's just a business play for Fraunhofer. So what they want to push AAC and get that everywhere, too But the point is MP3 is ubiquitous. It's everywhere. It's the same I read a good article today, you know the same reason why everyone still use JPEG even though there are better formats than that Like it's what we know. It's what we're accustomed to like Large ships turn slowly, right? I mean like even if mt3 slowly went away Take a really long time and you certainly have to worry about oh my gosh Do I have to can I encode my podcast MP3 and what am I gonna do a Marco speaking of overcast? He wrote a great article about this, but it's nothing wrong with MP3 man. Don't buy it and I think Especially now these public radio people and advertisers coming into podcasting are Very interested to see MP3 die and something Take its place. That's more trackable. They want a technology that phones home and Reports on how much you listen to the podcast There are all kinds of privacy concerns over that kind of thing I mean, could you imagine if you bought a book or a movie or a magazine or whatever? And it was constantly sending data back to the producers to say how much you watched of that How many times you watched it where you paused where you resumed? Maybe location data? I'm not willing to have that. I'm gonna say that already exists DVR or your Apple TV with Amazon They now have a chart based on not one of the top sellers although they still have that chart as well But they now have a chart based on Kindle on whose pages were read the most YouTube Like it could not you're plugged into Google They didn't know everything and every piece that you oh, I want to see that bikini shot four more times 10 second back like I look at that in my stats. I can see where people like which part of the content He's the video. They like the most like it's incredible. So that's unavoidable, but he doesn't mean I wanted to well The tricky part of that is it would have to almost be a new format because that exists now I mean all sound Omni studio and Wooshka all say they can track how far people listen Stature does that and stitcher. Yeah, but they own the file exactly and it's it's you have to own the the experience Yes, the app like yeah, pod Apple Apple could do that and give it to us. They don't give us that info I wish they did so when I've been playing with those platforms It's always like two to five percent of my audience because that's the only people that they can report that back on are people that are Listening on a website and more and more reports show that you know It's 82 percent and above are listening on some sort of mobile device So or the very few people who press play on an episode without downloading it depending on the particular host You're using they may be able to track some of that and where you skip around in it But that that hurts the user experience and I think there is no user out there who is saying hey You know what I'd love in podcasting is if the podcasters could see more data about how I consume How can I help you put more advertising in front of me? That's what I want Yeah, and I was you can opt into those things it says I do want to help I do want you to make the ad here. Hey if Apple's going to put ads in front of my shiny new podcast app It better be relevant and you can opt in for that sometimes Yeah, and I always say you know, we didn't know if anybody saw the ad on page 16 of the newspaper We didn't know if somebody heard the ad at 215 on the radio I'm like why is it that we have to get this kind of specific detail when it comes to podcast I think it's being held up to a different standard Mainly because I think they want to stop people from you know, they're trying to hold on to their advertising dollars Which is to me if I'm an advertiser and somebody says no no no stay here with our magazine This is you know, this is where the audience is and blah blah blah plus they can't tell you if anybody's you know Actually listening to that to which I would if I was the advertiser, I'm like well you can't tell me if anybody's seeing my You know, how far are they paging through your magazine so advertising and numbers all been made up to this point Now we can finally tell you when digital can track so much better anything else and they want it to be that much More trackable so that yeah this so they can I don't know so they can fudge the numbers I guess I don't know because we're seeing that now people in the podcast space are coming in fudging numbers To justify ad deals and you know at some point. Hopefully when they work these this whole the This whole ad I don't know However, what is the IVP or PBI or whatever when they work that out and they find out that hey Guess what our numbers aren't what we've told advertisers. They are Unlike people are using blips and blueberries got real numbers and then they're going to be in for a while to hurt because they can't make it up So careful what you wish for Absolutely Daniel you're gonna say something or I Think that they have trust issues They can see how much money they're making well That is the people who have something to sell direct response Advertisers like use this promo code or use this particular link something like that They can see exactly how much money they make from those things. I think it's more the brand advertisers Are wanting to know how many people what are these people like and they probably got a taste of it from Facebook and other Kind of social platform advertising where you can target to say I want ladies who are single and this age and interested in these topics and members of these Facebook groups and only these people to see these ads and You can then buy that relevant targeting you can spend less and reach your ideal audience But that's already what? podcasting is Accept for those top podcast shows that get all the attention these days Aside from the top podcasts that are general broad interest subjects, you know politics news storytelling Music sports technology relationships finances those kinds of categories and comedy in there, too Everything else seems to be much more niche and much more valuable to an advertiser But the brand advertisers and other sponsors aren't looking there They're looking where the big numbers are and they want to know are my ads on these popular shows being any effective And it's It's something that ultimately I think they'll get and yes as a podcaster I'd love to know how much people listen to my episodes. When do they drop out? but It's data we can live without We can just work to make the best content we can And sponsors can work to advertise in the right places and make their products relevant in their Advertising relevant to people the best they can anything beyond that and If the dollars are matching up then Then you don't really need more than that but unfortunately they're still going to pursue more than that I think yeah Edison research just came out with They they were I guess commissioned by audio boom to go over their I Guess subscribers or their audience in the US and one of the questions was if you ever bought a product or service that you Heard about on a podcast and 64% of the audience is had so I don't know to me. I that sounds pretty decent In terms of hearing that and I think we all the fact that we can all joke and say yeah Yes stamps calm Casper mattresses blue apron. We're just naming all these brands Can you do that with a you know? I see different TV it seems like the only ads I ever see are for Prescription drugs. I can't name any of them. I just all know they all give you you know explosive diarrhea cause of death Blah blah blah and all these other great side effects but Yeah, so I think I think the other thing that that bugs people is the fact that we know that Apple has this Information and unless like Daniel said unless you're you're a big shot smarty pants They're not going to give it to you and I swear that's half of it Well, no, they they don't track that information right now the the listenership completion They don't track that well, they don't give it to us Doesn't mean they don't track it I'm not sure if they would track it because Apple is so focused on transparency In fact today I read an article from a former Apple engineer or someone that was quoted and they said that Siri is Limited because Apple is so obsessed with privacy and Siri could become so much better like Alexa or Google Google whatever Google's thing is called. I'm sure it could be so much better than them But Apple is limiting it because in order to make it better. It needs to Compromise your privacy in certain ways or share data back with the central network I hope that's true and I but I think that It just gets them out of having to comply with all those federal's Warrants and stuff that people like like we know you know give it there like look We don't so we do we don't build into the tech available. Leave us alone right here. I I'm just always looking at the at the alter your motive, but I hope I hope that's it I hope it's privacy fight for the little guy from the guy who has the most, you know We're talking about you know at Apple being able to turn Podcast and the podcast store so to speak into revenue. We know they don't need the money So I'm not concerned. I'm like, oh, yes Find the Apple will you know make some money off podcast and they can put it back into into podcasting I mean, yeah, great if they make some funds Hopefully they will use it for their podcasting team and make podcasts better, but we certainly know they don't need the money So it would be cool for us They don't need it But maybe if they can reinvest that would be awesome. It's like we have a question from the chat Is it from Patrick Keller who Dave? He said he can finally see himself in the background behind you So Where'd he go? They the tricky part is you don't know Dave moves them around during the show Well, what's actually happening now is I have a rotating fan and they're blowing people I have a bunch of people that I have to stick back on the wall because the fan is Is blowing them it's better than the poltergeist story. I thought you're gonna go with Um Anyway, what's the question Daniel Patrick asked our podcast websites always going to be a thing Are they going to fade away eventually with all the apps my website hits compared to downloads are almost non-existent? No Not my opinion. I mean less unless websites go away, but as long as websites exist I think you should have a website personally, but we've gone down that that rattle before boy. You guys. What do you think? The thing I always come to is Where are you going to tell people to go to get your podcast? Especially as these Apps that we've taken for granted start to either change names or decrease in popularity It's too complicated to say Oh find my podcast in this app and in this app and this app and wherever podcasts are available Then you have to rely on your search engine optimization And what if someone enters the name of your podcast and your podcast is not the one that turns up as number one Then you're sending all of your potential subscribers to someone else's show Is so don't rely on your search in that way The but no your website is the place where they can get all the stuff that isn't your podcast I don't care if they get the they listen to the podcast. They're not maybe they can sample it there Maybe they discover it there But you know, I'm not going to tell you who I am and had a content I'm not going to give you or even a way to count. I mean it's all there It's every single thing you'd ever want someone to know about your podcast In the place hopefully where people would remember where the heck the podcast around table.com. Yeah, I know that We could have an app we could replace your website at some point everything could just be apps But even then that is a much higher thing to uh to maintain and and have then a website is at least now and I think even if your website was as simple as Name of the podcast what the podcast is about how to subscribe and how to contact you that could be even enough It'd be great if every episode has had its own post But at that bare minimum so you can point people there Mark Johansson mentioned something about texting to get listeners on your email list that can work. Okay, but texting an email address is torture It's also country like that word that right now like you could do that and it works like the us But it's not global and a global medium. So I mean it can work, but it's not it's not ideal Those are all just marketing techniques anyways I mean a website is that you own it, right? I mean you have your podcast you have the feed Hopefully you own that hopefully you own your own website, right? So again, so you have control over Everything that is your podcast now your your website is the place that they can always go back to when there was a social Network It was kind of funny when they send you the email to let you know That they're going out of business and your mz. Yes mz went out of business to which we all go Who exactly so when you know if you'd put all your eggs in the mz basket and then they go, yeah, we're shutting it down You know now they can say well just everything will be back at my website. So that way in the event Something ever just crashes and burns. They know where to go, you know, if they're like, well, I was following him on I'm mz. But now that's gone. What do I do? Well, if you've been plugging your website They know itunes can kick you can kick any of us out tomorrow, right? So podcast around table could be gone from i2. I think I'd say I've violated some terms of service or it could just be a technical error and then They're like that show's just gone you the problem is you probably wouldn't know it was gone Because you would just think we didn't produce an episode But hopefully if there weren't episodes coming out people would like i'm gonna try the website at least see what's going on Well, that's the beautiful decentralized power of podcasting is that although people may find us or it's easier to subscribe to the podcast If it's in the apple podcast app Once they're subscribed we could get kicked out of the podcast app. Sure But that doesn't affect our subscribers because they're subscribed then directly to our rss feed not some centralized database right You couldn't find us. You're right. That's better It's a bad example on that that point. We do have a connection to those subs, but You wouldn't get us in the story Something that I like to bring up is when uh, Dave was hosting his show ask the podcast coach was Which is live saturday mornings at 10 30 a.m. Eastern at ask the podcast coach.com slash live I stole your thunder dave when He was doing the show on blab Of course, all kinds of interesting people came around on blab But one of the guys I remember came on and like was bragging or something and was saying something like Oh, i'm really big on blab And well now I guess he's not big anymore because blab doesn't exist Yeah, but he gets to say I was the biggest on blab That's right that's my time but it's hey, I used to be huge on uh, there was what are some other good social service Anyways, mark says in the chat. He says he never goes to podcast website come to think of it He's been the daves raised and daniels a few times in the past but I would also say that this audience is not the best audience So we we tend to get probably our content other ways But the whole point is Never to assume how any one person gets their content, right? I mean you don't have a podcast It's like i'm not gonna put a player on my site. No one listens. Well, we talked about paying 40 for 47 cents per sub in dave's case Like what's the value of one subscriber? I mean, you know Personally, I'm going to want to have to be I want to be everywhere so that that one person can find it That's all I care about is that my care about is the one person that's going to find the podcast And if one person, you know, you gave them your web address They go to your site and from there they're able to subscribe to your podcast and they never visit your site again Your website was not a waste exactly. It did exactly what it was supposed to do And there are ways you can get people to your website if you're talking about something and you're like Well, if you'd like to see my diagram of my mixer on how I have it set up on saturday morning You know, it's basically this and this and that but to see the diagram go to the website at blah blah blah slash blah blah And it's almost like a a cover charge You're only going to get those people that go through the steps of hitting rewind and writing down that address again or clicking on the link in the show notes on their phone To get that so there are ways to get people to your website. It's it's kind of a It's not spammy or anything like that But you can talk about it on your web on your podcast and then say for more information See the website and it's all about it's all about the life I mean you've talked about this Dave if you go to podcasters roundtable.com slash live That is what I always promote at least now since we've been doing it on the website like I promote that link It's baked into the archive of the round table here, right? So when I change we're not doing on hangouts anymore hangouts I love you don't change When we're not when we go to blab whatever Dave you've changed your platform a lot like that link is always relevant Right. So I you know, I sure you can find us on youtube I'd love for you to subscribe there because it's a great system But I'm going to promote podcast roundtable.com slash live because no matter what I control whether that goes away or not Yeah, I did that the last two weeks. I was kicking the tires on blive.tv And so that's luckily my audience doesn't have to To guess where to go on Saturday morning. They know it's ask the podcast coach.com slash live And they're like, oh wow, this isn't where we normally are and 10 30 there I roll in so here's an example of my own experience with someone in our audience right now Emily pro cop who hosts the story behind a podcast I don't think I'd ever gone to her site To subscribe or anything like that. I subscribe directly in a podcast app I never went to the site until She did an episode. I forget which episode it was Uh, and I forget the exact term But it was about this chord progression in music that's used in hundreds and hundreds of songs And she mentioned that she had on her website a video where these guys did a parody Where they just used this exact same chord progression and then go from song to song to song like changing the lyrics with each song And you realize wow, it's it's in that song. I know that song I know that song I know and it's a seamless progression from song to song Because it's the exact same chord progression And that's the one time I went to her website because I wanted to see that thing that she mentioned in her podcast Did oh and so her website did you went to there to probably all of the musicians who listened? We're like, oh, what are those chords? Yeah, absolutely. I did the same thing So we are Getting near the end a couple other things that are probably important for this audience Now google is indexing this isn't new news, but it's news enough google's indexing Your podcast rss feed also another plug for our rss session that podcast movement says rss. I'm a shill like at this point Uh, what's up with that google's indexing your park podcast rss feed. What does that mean for what does that mean for everyone watching this show? listening I was under the assumption this only came up if you did a google search on your phone Is that accurate? Yeah for now And if you're right it is you I think you're right If you put a little bit of code on your In your website, you need to put code isn't just have your rss feed like link No, we're talking about two different things. Um, Dave. I think what Dave is talking about is that if you do a search for a podcast or a search that turns up certain podcasts on the android browser on android And it's in the google app or the android built-in browser. This doesn't work yet on ios This doesn't work yet in a regular browser on a computer But if you do a search that's relevant to a podcast, you will see podcast episodes show up in that result Now those episodes Are populated from surprisingly different places That show no consistency to them like i've looked at our separate podcasts as well as separate podcasts from others Like for example, so the episode listings where you can actually press play on the episode on a mobile device an android mobile device Um for some of us It pulled the episodes from the iTunes listing result For some of us it showed the episodes from our website results for some of us It didn't show episodes at all And in these cases three separate scenarios like that I was able to find situations where we all used the exact same feed creation tool had the exact same tags Very similar links on our sites, but google was treating the same things slightly differently. So that's that's one thing that Is not necessarily tied to your rss feed But this other thing and this was stargate pioneer that or as someone from gunna geek network Talk about I can't get this to work. What they're saying is when you because i've always said Steve the question was do you get more? seo juice by having your own rss feed on your website versus using a spreeker or a libson feed or whoever pod mean And i've always said it doesn't make any sense rob walsh has said he talked to somebody at google who said no You don't get any you know seo boost and i've always said why would google Put a search result Assuming that google thinks you're using chrome Why would they put in a uh rss feed in the results because if you click on an rss feed in chrome Unless you've got some sort of special Extension plugged in you're just going to get a face full of chrome and i heard that episode and i'm sure a face full of chrome that's it and uh I've gone. I just did it right now I went to google typed and asked the podcast coach to see if my rss feed would come up on the front or second page And i'm still not seeing what they're talking about so i'm not saying At least for me and i even did the old go to a You know a private browser Thinking that maybe it was somehow customized to me So if if you guys have results that i'm not getting i just personally can't get an rss feed To come up on chrome Yeah, i'm finding his article now I want to see exactly what the search was that he did in order to see the podcast coach Yeah, because that sounds but I'm curious what the point is what what is google trend if that's true. What is google doing? Oh, okay if Let's try this it was for better podcasting if you let's see try better podcasting without the quotation marks steven genre and sp's podcast Without the quotation marks rss feed is not on the first page With the quotation marks and there is a very interesting thing that could be making this different With quotation marks better podcasting. Ah, there it is With quotation marks my rss feed comes up so what That's why why do we care like what is google doing? Well, so their thing was I'm now losing so if somebody now on the other hand When you do that for ask the podcast coach Shockingly ask the podcast coach.com comes up first Then it comes up on jim's website. Then it comes up on the school of podcasting's website tune in Then it comes up in itunes then on sprieker Then it shows my lips and feet So if somebody doesn't click on one of the first seven results And they click on my rss feed. They're going to get a face food full of code And here's the thing the reason it's even the the lipson is showing up probably Is because it's in the url as part of the domain, right? Yeah, it's my slug Yeah, in this case my slug is ask the podcast coach dot lipson.com slash rss. All right, so let's get Let's just have some fun with it then because if it if it's happening if it does exist if google is doing this What do you think what? What's the real point? What do you think google? I mean it doesn't matter if it works now or not I mean I was look google should oh it should be indexing podcast the way you used to do a search and get the top youtube Video hits. I mean if you are You can't listen to audio yet or not well But if you write great show notes if you have your rss feed and you have enough information that It should lift that up in results for someone who's sure searching something. I'm hoping that'll happen in the future Well, that was their point was if it's going to show up In a search results, then you should be using an rss feed on your website And you rss having an rss feed that is Updated regularly. I mean all this stuff doesn't you kind of already get credit for this, right? I mean you have a website that here's another reason to have a website, right? I mean you you're creating content essentially a blog What you're updating regularly Hopefully google gives you a little bit more weight for that topic that you're creating a blog podcast On I would hope that an artist's feed would add to this credibility And if you're getting new stuff added to that feed and it's rich like we're adding audio or video files I want to I want to come up more relevant in the search Hopefully at some point in the future. Yeah, and it's not always about being number one on the search But about dominating the search can be even more powerful So they see all of page one is your own content. Maybe yeah, it's on different platforms So they see your stitcher your itunes your website So if your rss feed shows up as long as it's not number one Like david said so what? Uh, and I can't actually find a podcast that the rss feed is near the top when i'm using a an unlogged in browser I'm not getting uh, I'm not getting sponsored by hyal. Sorry chat. I should be hyal hook me up I almost think part of their point was Hey, we can get rss feeds to show up in google I think that was it because I'd said they're not it doesn't happen and it still doesn't happen unless you put quotation marks around it but um I don't know to me. It's like even if that rss feed was on my website If I click on it and i'm in chrome I am still going to go Ugh and hit the back button right, but i'm just thinking more long google's always about money And they want to be relevant to search like what's the future? What's the direction and if you're a podcaster? What do you need to know? Like if this is happening is just having you know, we have Subscribe links again another reason we talked about having a website so one can go there and they can find out your subscribe links You want to have your rss feed available for someone who wants to use that If is that enough to have that rss feed address? Basically linkable on your site. Would that would that be a flag? Would that would google be picking it up that way? I mean if here's the thing because people will say oh well you have to use You know you have to host your feed on your website. Well, that's probably baloney, right? If I have my feed on lipson Or blueberry as long as it's linked or as long as it's in my site somehow would that be enough is a question I think that's probably how google is finding the feeds in the first place is that they are um linked from a website that google has indexed and so it follows these links And if the rss feed then is properly set up and links back to your website Then it's really not a problem that the actual domain Is not something you own from a very minor branding perspective maybe But ultimately I think Looking at the usability of this and because google really tries to make its algorithm work the way humans would want it to work Google will probably realize oops We're indexing rss documents or xml documents and we shouldn't be doing that No one wants to view an xml document in their browser. Let's stop doing that And then they fix the problem, right? Yeah, because if I I looked at my rss feed the fifth line down is a link to my website so I'm not worried about it at this point. I don't think i'm gonna There's so many if somebody's doing this and they do that and they click on this Oh my gosh, and i'm like I'm not worried at this point, right? You could completely crash your computer if you go to the terminal and type format c colon backslash Did you know there's such power to destroy everything? If you want to be I mean if you are Curious or you're wondering what the heck do I do? I mean you should have your rss Feed linked on your website anyways, so that's just a general like if this doesn't motivate you because it doesn't sound very Motivating you should still do that have that available with subscribe links to all the places people can get your podcast Oh, well not all of but daniel will hook you up with that He's got he's got a ready for a a classic dave jackson analogy Yes, well because I don't know I've had people ask me like I clicked on the rss button and nothing happened It's broken because I got all this code on my screen And I always say, you know itunes has a direct link to your show Spreaker whoever have these direct links to your show And I go that's kind of like a preset on a radio station Like if you have a radio in front of you on your car, you've got preset one preset two preset three But what if somebody wants to manually turn the knob? To a station well, that's kind of what the rss feed is for if somebody wants to manually subscribe to your show And most people don't you know you copy it you don't click on it and blah blah blah So the having the rss feed is for the person who goes I don't listen on stitcher. I don't listen on itunes I use Castro or whatever, you know app is so Yeah, and they can yeah exactly and they can take they can at least copy it and take it over Because you know, you've always been able to put in an rss feed link into apple podcast if you want I mean if you don't want to at that point Anyways, yes have it available I'll go down that rattle any more but Um not much left so wrapping it up. There is a new we talked about podcast movement There's a new podcast conference coming it's called pod con, but this one is a little different This is from Hank green and well the vlog brothers. I think and anyways they did Vid con so this is pod con vid con is hugely successful. I would say it's the number one Conference to go for youtubers at least but it's much more than it's more than that But it is primarily youtube conference at this point. It's really cool. I'd love to go So I would hope I mean they know how to do a conference so pod con seems to be aimed at podcast Fans but also I think they wanted I don't know it's being crowdfunded. They said they're going to do it no matter what It's up in Seattle So I don't know if you guys have heard of this or have any interest, but it's different It's not it's not like a con like podcast movements If you go if you're a podcast producer if you listen to this show, right? But this is more podcast fans, which we all are And I think it's a little they're going to I think have somehow to but mostly it's We've seen this before in la they've done sort of but it's la has been more focused on Like specific niche Right and and I know vid con is the place if you want if you are in if you have youtube Stars you love you go to vid con like they're there So I feel like pod con is trying to become basically vid con Yeah, or kind of the pod fest and traditional pod fest Of all podcasts like there's the la pod fest, which I think might be the first pod fest or the first thing to carry that name pod fest and It's primarily comedy podcasts Primarily based in the los angeles area It's that little bubble of those comedy podcasters and there have been other pod fests around the us Besides pod festas as I like to call it or the pod fest media expert Which actually I'm wearing their shirt right now for next year's conference But that pod fest is more a podcasting conference. Whereas all the other pod fests are Let's get together and watch these podcasters record live. So what pod con is trying to do is trying to be the pod fest for all genres Not only comedy not only local or regional in some way but everyone So they've got um like uh me my me My brother my brother and me that's it lore. Alice isn't dead. Welcome to night veils. Saw bones. They've got some other things 99 invisible Different podcasts Interesting thing to me is that you don't it's it's almost like you're recreating your audience every year Whereas if they don't have a show That you love, I mean and that's such a high threshold like not only does has to be a show you love But you're gonna travel See this show. So I think they're gonna have to offer more if you're a video if you're a youtuber you go to vidcon But also if you're a fan You go to vidcon because they have all the biggest youtubers there So I don't I mean I imagine they'll build it in the uh the likeness of vidcon But yeah, you almost have to each year. It's not like, you know every year podcast movement or whatever pod We we tend to go back Uh, whereas I don't know if you would do that with pod con as much But they're smarter of these things than I do see they say they'll have panel discussions workshops and weirdness That are more focused on talking about podcasting and not simply hosting live podcasts So it kind of feels like the only thing that sets this apart is that it's Trying to be more broad than la comedy podcasters. Yeah, I know they're trying to raise like 300 000 They got 81 000 in their first week or something. So like I said, they're gonna do it no matter what but And it's in Seattle, right? Is that where it's in Seattle? Yeah, they I think that's some why I was reading article day or something. It's like basically Vancouver seattle bay area like la like apparently Podcasting is big on this coast. So you want to get over here When you guys come out, we'll we'll do the island table live like every other day From our local studio It's gonna be amazing on the beach on the beach. Yes surfing of course I'm from a beach town and never served. All right I think that's it. We could head out. It was a lot of fun. We got waves to catch gotta get out of here Uh, Daniel j. Lewis. Thanks for joining us once again. Thank you. I'm Daniel j. Lewis from the audacity to podcast.com Dot com Dave Jackson. Thanks again, man. It was great fun. Uh, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting dot com All right, and you should check out podcasters round table dot com notice we we are we are all choosing to send you to our websites Amazing, isn't it? Maybe I'll go with the uh, the other call to action No, right rate and review you can do if you want to share this if you know someone who produces a podcast We talk about all the issues that podcasters Have to deal with on a daily basis share this podcast with a friend be a friend help them out Help out your podcast producer friends or people who want to start a podcast Then they'll figure out what's really going on and they'll figure out how to stay around past that mythical uh episode seven, but yeah podcasters round table Dot com slash guest if you want to be on the round table You'll submit your uh, your ideas the things you'd like to discuss Through that link and uh, we'll get you on here eventually. So we'll see you for the next one 96 waving. Goodbye. We are out of here. See you Where's that button