 We'll call a special meeting of the common council order. Pat, would you call the roll, please? Bowman. Here. Berg. Here. Boone. Here. Doyle. Excuse. Graf. Here. Manny. Here. Montemayor. Here. Moody. Here. Perez. Here. Rinflaich. Here. Wiener. Here. Wieninger. Here. 14 present. Corms present. Alma Graf. Here. These first two documents just referred. Okay, S61 and S62 will be referred. Thank you. 1219 through 1224 all deal with the stormwater management program. And that I need a motion from one of the aldermen to open the floor, please. Moved in second to open the floor under discussion. Hearing none, all in favor? Aye. Opposed? Motion carried. Alderman Stephan, before we open the floor. It was just, I thought you wanted to move. Okay, thank you. Any interested person who would like to speak, please step up to your microphone. Give us your name, address. Further record, please? Spell the last name. My name is Daryl Lug. I live at 1911 Arrowhead Court. The reason I am here is to request that you vote to have our subdivision exempt from paying the storm sewer fee. I believe it's number 1160 on your docket. Our situation is we live in the country, but also we live in the city of Sheboyan. The streets I'm referring to are Arrowhead Court slash trail, Pine Bluff Drive and White Pine Drive 53083. To give you a mental picture where this area is, if you go north on Lakeshore Road past the new Pigley Wiggly Store, you all know where the new Pigley Wiggly Store is, then keep heading north on LS Road and you get to Eisner Avenue. This is the end of the city of Sheboygan. Then keep going north on LS Road. You are now in the town of Sheboygan, including both sides of the road. Remember, you are now in the town of Sheboygan. Head north over the Pigeon River Bridge, then about one-tenth of a mile, turn left, and you are now in the Arrowhead subdivision, which is next to the city of Sheboygan. We do not have storm sewers. We have ditches. Not one drop of our storm water from our area goes into the city storm sewer system, not one drop. The water runs in the ditches and either dissipates or runs into the Pigeon River. In order for any water from our area to run into a city storm sewer, it would need to somehow fly over the Pigeon River, go up a 200-foot bank into the town of Sheboygan and into a storm sewer somewhere around Eisner Avenue. For the water to do this, that board is on the ridiculous. In regards to the street sweeper, for it to come down Lakeshore Road with all those cars clipping along, it would be very dangerous to do that. Then if it would make it, what would it sweep? We have no curbs or gutters alongside our roads, just a road with a ditch on the side. It would be a waste of the taxpayers' money to sweep our roads. It would be like sweeping a country road. One of our executives tried to justify charging a storm sewer fee by telling me a ditch is the same as a storm sewer. So I looked up ditch in the dictionary. It said a ditch is a trench in the ground. Then I looked up sewer and it said a sewer is a pipe that carries material. I looked up ditches and I repeat, not one drop of our storm water from our area goes into the city's storm sewer pipes. It was also brought up that the city maintains our ditches. What is there to maintain? It's a ditch. Besides that, several of the main ditches are on private property. For example, the one running through the property at 1807 Arrowhead Court. So there is no basis to charges for something we do not receive anything for. I used the example of Uncle Harry. He lives in the city of Sheboygan, but he does not own a car. Can you charge him for an auto-wheel fee? Of course not. Nor should we be charged a storm fee when not one drop of water goes into the city's storm sewer pipes. If the Public Works Department wants me to give them $36 a charitable contribution, fine. But don't force me to pay for something I do not receive anything for. So I along with the other residents of said streets ask you to vote to have us exempt from the storm sewer fee. I do have one concern. It was indicated to me by an older person that it would be very difficult for him to vote for the exemption even though he thought we were right. He said because all the people in his ward need to pay the fee they would not understand or care about our situation. I trust you will not take this attitude and vote for what is fair and equitable. Thank you very much. Thank you, Terrell. I want you to respond, but hang on. Chief, you had something you wanted to tell us before we started meeting. I apologize. I forgot about it till now. Could you please do that before we keep going? Thank you, Mayor. I don't mean to change, but I did ask the Mayor for a point of personal privilege. I come before you with good news to the Common Council. I'd like to take this opportunity and have your support in commending four citizens, actually three Subwaygan residents and one person from DPR this afternoon. In the middle of the afternoon, there was a car accident on 32nd and Washington Avenue. The car plunged into the retention pond. There was a female occupant in the car. The car was submerged under the hood up to the windshield. These four citizens, three of which live in the city of Subwaygan and one that lives in DPR, their names Jeff Bittner from the city of Subwaygan, Miguel Diaz from the city of Subwaygan, Dave Beimel from the city of Subwaygan and Tim Splitgerber from DPR ran out with other members of this community, but I couldn't get all their names and waded up into about high water and were holding onto the car so it would not go any deeper into the retaining pond, keeping that patient's head above water. Fire Department Rescue Units arrived, police arrived. Fire Department Rescue went into the water, recovered the patient on the longboard, brought the patient to Orange Cross, who did their EMS work and transported the victim to the hospital and just is a good thing to see citizens come forth and were willing to get involved. And I also like to thank, I don't know which company it is, that happened so fast this afternoon, I will find out. One of the companies, either being Subwaygan Glass, Kiefer Science or one of them, actually made an announcement on their paging system that there's help needed outside and sent their own employees out to help. And I just think that it's really commendable to these four and to everybody who came forth and was holding onto that car till we could get a cable on it and keep it secured and get the patient out. It is good news in Subwaygan. There is a person living today because of the citizen involvement. And I ask the mayor to contact these people with accommodation for the city. Thank you, Chief. I will. I would ask you try to keep your remarks too to around five minutes please so everyone gets a chance to speak this evening. Tom, you wanted to say something? Just to respond to the gentleman's comments, we had a lot of concerns over street sweeping component, leaf pickup being on a stormwater fee. So Friday, we took that out. And what that has done is added 400 to almost $500,000 to the capital. So the street sweeping and leaf pickup is not any longer in the budget for that stormwater fee. And Dave will go over the budget a little bit later. Up in the subdivision, the ditches are a conveyance system. They're not a storm pipe, but the ditches convey water. We have culverts that are underneath the streets. We put those culverts in. If they plug up, we got to clean them. And there are many storm sewers up in the northern part of that subdivision on the west side that need to be addressed. And we do go and maintain ditches. Over the years, they fill up with sediment. We have to go in, either riprap them, forget them to grade, either riprap them or stabilize them. And we are in the process of doing a ditch up there at the top of the hill that runs to the east to LS. And those aren't easements. They're not on private property. They're easements. Okay, thank you. Anyone else wishing to be heard, please step up for my phone. Please, sir. Good evening. I am going to represent Mr. Summers. Okay. Could we have your name and address? I'm not here yet. Pardon? Could we have your name and address, please, for the record? My name is Charles Williams. Okay. I live at 10 Elmwood Drive, Sheboygan, Wisconsin. Okay. And I live in Summerswood, even manufacturer home community. Okay. Evidently, he could not make it, so I guess I'm stuck with it here. We have 160 people that signed the petitions that you people got in front of you. 99.1% signed it. The rest were not there. We would like to be exempt. It's privately owned land since 1950. Summers paid for all sanitary sewers, water mains, hybrids and all ad roads that go to the mobile homes here. We do not have any curb or gutter or storm sewers or sweeper service or snow plowing. All we got is garbage pickup. There are about 150 manufactured homes in the park there. We also, like everyone else, pay $4.74 every quarter for fire station, firefighting protection, whatever it is. I have yet to see, and eight years have been out there, and I've called numerous older men to have somebody come out and check the hybrids. In this case, we got a fire to see if water and sand is going to come out. I've mentioned it to a lot of them, and nothing has been done yet. I got one right across the road from me. We only had one fire since I've been out there, but we sure like to know if the water is going to come out. And talking about water, due to the lack of water, no rain or anything, this whole division out there is a little bit of top soil. The rest is sand. We lack water. We want water. We wish we could get some of the water you people got. We have some of the biggest sprinkling bills in June, July and August with 16% reduction that you can shake a stick at, and we got dead grass. We don't have a water problem. We don't create a water problem. We want to be exempt from this. We are not creating a problem that you people are talking about. You got to look for somewhere else to get that money. It would be ridiculous to charge somebody for something that they didn't do anything wrong. I don't know. I was going to say a little bit more, but I'd like to stop by saying I think the city should get out of the real estate business and get back and let the people should get back in the taxation and let the people should hold the fort. Thank you. Name and address, sir. My name is Henry Capitello, and I'm here on behalf of the property that we own on 9th and Superior for Home Inc. and also for Tony Rios, who is the small business owner of the Maximart on 13th in Georgia. First of all, I'd like to thank the alderman that did vote against the stormwater sewer, which was Perez, Montmire, Reinfeldt and Doyle. Took a lot of courage for you to vote the way you did. I wish a lot of you other aldermen would have been here this afternoon at four o'clock. You would have had a good view of what the city business community has to say about the stormwater sewer fee that's going to be here. For the alderman that were here, I hope that you do let your other alderman know what was discussed at that time. I was here, there were over 20 some business people, all but I can say one was negative, was against the stormwater sewer. And the majority of things that really, two of the things that really just took my attention is we had two big employers that came here at four o'clock, which basically said that because of this fee that potentially their production, their manufacturing production capabilities in Sheboygan is potentially going to be threatened over this. And we're talking one has a thousand employees, another one has 500 employees. I think that when you start looking and making these kinds of decisions that you should really take the time to look at the constituents to see what kind of impact your actions are going to have. When you start talking about 500 people that are going to be out of work potentially because of the possibility that these people could go out of business. I think that sure you're going to have no stormwater sewer problem, but I'll tell you what, you're going to have it with a lot less population within the city because people will not be able to afford to live here. That is what's being done. The other thing that brought to mind was that the majority of the people that were here were also questioning what's happening to the money that you're removing from the tax level. Where is that going? Is that going to be reduction on the property tax? The majority wanted to know. And the comments that I heard were double taxing, double dipping. I mean, these are the kinds of things that the business community is talking about. And I think that to really look at this and look at this seriously and not just give us 20, 30 or half an hour here and then vote the way you were going to vote already knowing coming into this council chambers. I think that the people in Sheboygan would like to see that their elected officials are actually care about what they think and what their views are. And most of you, I don't know if you did or not, had to take some kind of oath when you took the office of being an alderman. And it probably had to do with doing your best for the community and for the taxpayers that voted you in. If you vote on this, which you already have, and if you do go and implement this, it's contrary to the wishes of not only the business community, but also the taxpayers. Thank you. Anyone else? I'm Renee Susha. I'm at 303 St. Clair Avenue in Sheboygan. I'm here tonight to ask that you set the storm water fee at zero or better yet, I challenge the alderman, someone to make a motion to actually repeal the storm water ordinance. I think that the people of Sheboygan have been misled into believing that all they will have to pay for is a small fee that will appear on their water bill sometime in the future. When you think about it, they've been told that now everybody's going to be paying this utility, including churches and schools and the city and county-owned buildings. But when you think about it, who actually pays those bills? It comes back to the citizens of Sheboygan, who's actually going to be footing the bill for all of the churches and the schools and the city and county buildings. You might ask yourself, you know, why are you implementing the storm water fee? You know, why does Sheboygan still have the wheel tax? You want to cut bus service? And why are you cutting library hours? Well, I think I finally found the answer as to why you're not increasing our property taxes more. The answer was printed in the March 28th issue of the Milwaukee Business Journal. In that issue, they looked at major metropolitan areas across the United States of America, and they looked at the real estate tax value per $1,000 of home value. And what you found is that Sheboygan, Wisconsin is ranked 12th in the United States of America for what we pay in property taxes. Because of this, I can imagine you don't want to fall into the number one spot, so you have to create these fees to cover the expenses. So what I'm asking is that you repeal the storm water fee and start looking inside and start reducing our property taxes because things are spiraling out of control if you haven't noticed. And I've reached the conclusion that until Sheboygan has a new fiscally responsible mayor, we will continue to pay and pay and pay unless you stop this spiraling downward turn tonight. Thank you. Thank you, Renee. I do disagree with you. 12th in the, you're right, I have the same thing. 12th in the metro areas, but that's for the whole county and everyone, not just for the city of Sheboygan. So we are not the highest 12th as a city. Matter of fact, I did get a letter from the gentleman who wrote that article. And here he says, I should stress that this city was not limited to the city of Sheboygan, but covered Sheboygan metro area, which includes all of Sheboygan County. And I am well familiar with the area, even though I now live in Buffalo, New York, that's because I grew up in Kohler, Wisconsin. We do not have any kind of report that we can offer to the public. This was an internal study only for our newspaper. So there's plenty that says Sheboygan was ranked the fifth lowest in taxes, which I have here also in a Milwaukee Journal. We were given awards constantly for being low taxation. So you can look at either way, mix and match the numbers, whatever you want to call it, but I disagree with that. We're 12th. And I have the same thing, rebutting that. Sir. My name is Carter Paulus. I recited 414 Erie Avenue. Excuse me. Could you give me your name? Carter Paulus. Carter Paulus. P-A-W-L-U-S. Thank you. 414 Erie Avenue. This has been an interesting exercise, but not in democracy. Earlier this evening, I learned from the mayor that you are supposed to have been mandated by the state, evidently, to create this additional bureaucracy when you already have a street's department and a department that probably works. Well, I looked up the definition of mandate in the dictionary, and it essentially means given the authority to implement certain policies. Well, policy is a matter of the mood of the moment. So I certainly second Mrs. Sush's motion that you repeal this added bureaucracy called the stormwater sewer thing, and to say that we're against any more fees is a masterpiece of understatement. You are taxing the taxpayers to death. And just recently we learned now that you're able to transfer $500,000 of street cleaning over to this bureaucracy. So now you're going to hide that in a fee. The hypocrisy continues and continues and continues, and the taxpayers are fed up, and I think it's time for a recall election. Tom, did you want to respond to the 500,000 or David? Sure. The mandates that we're faced with are part of the EPA and the DNR's program for our storm sewer permitting system, and that has many environmental types of components with this. There's two components with the stormwater management system. One side is environmental water quality issues. The other side of the equation is a quantity issue and being able to control the runoff and the flooding concerns. So there are mandates that we need to do certain activities with our stormwater management system. The user fee system is a method of pain for that. By all means, that's not a mandate that we have to implement this. But it is a method that Gail helps us to fund our program, and it eventually helps us do long-term planning and construction for our overall plan. And we have tried and we have listened, and that's why we would like to talk about the budget that we're proposing here is we understand there was quite a concern having street sweeping and leaf collection, although it is part of the storm sewer and stormwater type of system that the mandates require us to do, but it is a service that is already being provided under the general tax levy, and it's part of our operations and maintenance. Therefore, we removed that from the budget, and then the balance of that went towards capital, which we felt, and we are getting feedback from the community as well as this council, was that it would be nice to have more money go for our capital projects, our big projects such as the 17th and Ashland that's still out there. We just finished the Bluff Avenue project. The bricks and mortar, the sense that we got from the citizens was that if we're going to pay this fee, let's see something for it. Street sweeping and leaf collection, that's already happening, and that's a service that's already being provided. If this fee is going to be implemented, let's see some activity, and by shifting that out of the fund and shifting more of that money towards the capital, we will have a better opportunity to fund our long-range stormwater management program, and we're talking a program here of projects that are going to be, not five years, I mean, these are projects that are going to be ongoing 10 to 20 years from now, and this will provide us with that mechanism to accomplish those goals. Thank you. I'll remember the name. Sure, please come in. Anyone else wishing to be heard out of the audience? Agnes Sorens, I live at 1415 Camelot Boulevard, and I'm very nervous. I don't speak a lot. I believe it should be repealed for the simple reason. Now that you've passed it, maybe you should start at 55 cents per 42,500 ERUs, which you are basing that fee on, because the last financial meeting that I went to, you have got this statement, and that was going to show us over 10 years that this fee would raise from $2.24 in 2003 to be a high of $2.94 in the year 2014. And now I hear Mayor Schramm say two weeks ago, it shouldn't be much more over $3. I just think that the price just keeps going up and up after getting a 10-year statement from the water department at the financial meeting, and it just seems to me it's always business as usual. And I feel that the money that's coming out of that storm fee and going back into the capital funds is going to be there for you to make up your shortfall that's coming down from Madison. Everyone's going to suffer from the shortfall. I just don't think we should put in this fee. And no one has suffered any less than Camelot Boulevard, which is still waiting for something to be done, and the city has had money for five years and not implemented anything because the price keeps going up, as Mr. Holton tells me. That's all I have to say. Thank you. Tom, you want to respond to that? We've been talking about the storm water fee since $95 or $6. And we've had numbers all over the place. And the discussions we've had, we're finally getting down to a fee. Right now we're looking at $3 a month to fund $700 in operations for the maintenance of the system and roughly $500,000 plus for the capital projects. So we can do these projects. As far as Camelot Boulevard, we've already spent over $2 million down there moving the houses out of the flood plain. And we started out with a budget of $750 on the new pipe down there. As you get into design, issues come up. And that was a number that was our best guess in the time. Now we're up to $1.5 million. Now we're back down to about $1 million or $1.2 million. We're finishing up the plans and we'll be able to bid for that in the next few weeks to see what costs come in at. We don't have all kinds of money laying around. We don't have that. I think, and I guess I just have a question for Tom. And that would be, we've heard about state DNR and EPA regulations. And I guess I'd like to know what the impact of those are on the whole system. If you can briefly in some way explain that and roughly what those requirements are forcing on us and controlling the stormwater and beyond that, in the meeting we had earlier today, they talked about pond maintenance or retention ponds and things like that and how we have to address those. And it was also brought up at that time. The fact that eventually we're going to have to actually clean those ponds out and that's another issue that's out there. And following up after that, if you can follow me here, I guess I'm wondering 25 or 30 years ago, we really didn't hear about things like this in the city. And we didn't, everything just ran right into Lake Michigan and no one really thought anything about it, ran down the banks down the streets into the river and to Lake Michigan I can remember 40 years ago or dating myself. I can't quite remember 50 years ago, but everything ran into the lake and nobody did anything to stop anything. So I guess in looking at that environmentally and all the other things, tied that in with the state requirements and things like that. I'm just kind of wondering how that has driven the need to address our stormwater. Mike, this would be a good time for Dave to go over the budget that we laid in your desk and he can explain that. The DNR through our NR216 through EPA is a stormwater permit, which is $10,000 a year. And with that, they're requiring us basically one to sweep our streets. We have to reduce our pollutant loadings going into the rivers and lakes. We have to clean our catch basins on a regular basis and prove to them that we're doing it, again to reduce the contaminants going into the receiving waters. As far as flooding goes, Bluff Avenue, they had flooding back in the 60s that I know have heard from people. So we've had issues. They're compounding now. It seemed like the storms are more severe, more frequent. And we've had issues in the past and we are correcting them. The best that we can, the one that's available. I think Dave, if you want to go through the budget, what's on your desk there? Before Dave does that, I want to hear from the people, our constituents out there first, in case they have to leave. So we want to get all to the gallery if they want to speak, please. Whoever else wants to get up to the microphone? Anyone? My name is Ernest M. Kepler. I live at 2533 Lakeshore Drive. As near as I can figure, I'm a fifth or sixth generation Sheboyganite and I've got to tell you I love it here, but it's too expensive. Costs are spiraling going up, up, up. Taxation is way out of the control. And the storm sewer issue is merely just adding another little log on the fire. And add insult to injury. I guess we're going to pay somebody $50,000 to tell us how to charge. That's ridiculous. Ice challenge is counsel to really look into what it is that is costing the city so much. We should be looking at a way not to maintain the current situation, but to be greatly reducing our costs, greatly reducing our total taxation, not just by a small amount, but by double percentages for a few years. I think the mayor had a good idea when he said for 5% across the board decrease. The only thing I disagree with is the 5%. I think you should be looking at 25%. It's tough issues. It's very tough. Economic times are strapped. Many of us are retired. We simply can't afford it. This is one of the highest taxation areas, not just this city, but it's a phenomenon of the state of Wisconsin. We need to reduce. We need to double up where we can. It has to come down to that we are looking at reduced costs and reduced taxation. I know you're all trying. I know that, but we've got to really dig deeper. We've got to cut. I will be writing a letter in detail to one of my older men explaining my views, and it will be rather lengthy, I'm afraid, but I please ask that you rescind this sewer tax. To me, it's not the $36 a year. It's the principal, and it isn't going to stop there. If this goes, I can just imagine what that's going to be like in a few more years, but I challenge you all to really, really cut. You have to cut. I know it's not an easy decision. It's not nice to tell somebody that, hey, we're reducing employment or reducing costs in general, but it has to be done. In the private sector, man, the last three years, it's been terrible. It's been very terrible. People losing their jobs and those that are left are doubling up on the responsibility without any pay increase. So please look deeper and deeper and try to get those costs down. If I have one more minute, I would like to ask a question. A couple of weeks back, there was an article in the paper by Alderman Graff and it said that the city hourly wage average was $15 an hour. And two weeks ago, there was a very world-renowned economist, Dr. Son of Wells Fargo in Sheboygan. I happened to attend the meeting that he presided at the seminar he gave, and his remarks were quoted in the Sheboygan Press. In there, he said that the national average, as I recall, of hourly wages is $11.81. The Wisconsin average is $13.01. But the city of Sheboygan is at $15? How did we get to that position? And what about our executive levels in the city? How many do we have that are in excess? And what kind of wages are these people bringing in? That, too, is in the paper. That seems quite high compared to the private sector. Thank you. Thank you. Sir, just a moment before you leave. You're right. We are working hard and we're trying to bring that budget into compliance. And I will do everything I can to come in with a budget that's acceptable, not only to this council but to the city of Sheboygan. And I'm looking at my goal. My goal would be a 0% increase on assess tax levy. That'd be my goal. And I will work hard to get to that. As a private citizen, anything I can volunteer to help, I'd be glad to. Thank you. Could you send me a copy or a letter, please? We'll be getting one for everyone. Thank you. Anyone else wishing to be heard? Anyone else? Sure. Ma'am, please. My name is Mary Webber, 1028 Logan. I am on a fixed income. My husband is handicapped. I can't afford to keep getting taxed on top of tax on top of tax. I mean, I'm going to get taxed all over. Every penny that I make, I have to kind of try to figure out, do I pay this? Does my husband get his medicine? Come on. I mean, I don't have the money to even buy insurance on the side for my husband. And I keep getting taxed and taxed. When does this stop? Yeah, I would move out of Sheboygan. I've got to save. I mean, I loved Sheboygan. I sell Sheboygan to everyone. I talked about Sheboygan to her. I love the city. I love the people of Sheboygan. There's nothing that I don't love about Sheboygan except that we keep getting taxed over and over and over. And I would like for you, I am a taxpayer. I am a voter also. I want, I would like some answers. Why don't the public get to have a say so for a whole session? Can we have an open session where the whole people can come up for two hours instead of the regular meeting? Or is that not possible? We had an open session two weeks ago, was it? For the whole meeting? No, it wasn't for the whole meeting. But it had a question and answer to get input. We had one this afternoon. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Anyone else? Alderman Gough. Thank you, Your Honor. Documents 1219, 1160, 1221, 1223, and 1224. I will move that all the arrows and communication be accepted in part. And how about 1153? That you want to take separate? You want to take it separate. Okay. This is just a first one. Okay. It's moved to second that all documents 1219 through 1224 be accepted and placed on file. Under discussion, Alderman Prev. Thank you, Your Honor. I'd just like to point out to the public and to our people that are present here to us that these five documents pertain to opposition to the stormwater fee. There's very good letters that oppose the stormwater fee. We also have a couple more up here that will go to strategic fiscal plan that he just got today. So, Alderman Manny. Thank you, Your Honor. I'd like a comment or two directed to the request for exemption from the Woodhaven Group. Tom, could you speak to that possibly about the mobile home park and its status with their request for exemption? That area has the drainage splits. About half or so goes north. It goes into a swale that we constructed that goes into Fisherman's Creek. And we're down there last year redoing that swale again for several thousand dollars. The rest of that area then goes to the south underneath Wheaton Creek, which are culvert that we maintain and clean along with the county does too. So they do go into a conveyance system. Again, we took out street sweep and leaf pickup off of this fee. So it's the maintenance of culverts, storm sewers, ditches, and also capital projects that benefits the entire city. Okay. After another discussion, all in favor of the motion? Opposed? Motion carried. 1153 RC by finance public works recommending establishing an equivalent runoff unit rate for the city storm water management user fee. Alderman Groth. Your Honor, I move that the RC be accepted and adopted and that the substitute resolution be put upon passage. Moved and seconded at the RC be accepted and adopted and the resolution be put upon a substitute resolution be put upon this passage. Alderman Reinflesch. Under discussion? Yes, under discussion. Thank you, Your Honor. In addition to the rain tax has been well known and there's a lot of talk of budget numbers and so on, but I'll just sum up my opposition three ways. One, I think it's unfair to the smaller homeowners who will have to pay more than their actual square footage of impervious surfaces because we're using an average. Someone with a small home, maybe valued 80,000 will be paying the same as some of the larger home, valued about half a million. Second, I think it's unfair to churches and nonprofits who will have to raise more money just to provide the current levels of service. And I think it's unfair to those who rely on those services as there probably will be less of them offered. But most importantly, I think it's unfair to local businesses. We have just had our meetings with the representatives from the local business community this afternoon. Without exaggeration, I think it was shown that they're overwhelmingly against this rain tax. We have to ask ourselves why. Small businesses have tiny margins already and I fear that this additional fee on their businesses will kill many of them. And as we know, most of the new jobs created in this country are by small businesses. What about the larger businesses? The corporations that we have in town. Let me make it clear that there is nothing made in any of Chewbacca's plants that cannot be made somewhere else. Just ask the employees of Mirro and Manitowoc who have recently lost their jobs. Corporations are in competition with each other, but more importantly, their plants are in competition within the corporations. If it's cheaper to make something in Tennessee, there's no reason why it will be shipped out of Chewbacca into Tennessee. As someone said earlier this afternoon, there will always be a volrath, but perhaps not in Chewbacca. I have a prediction to make. If we pass this and we assign a fee of $3 per ERU within 12 months of April 1st when the first bills will go out, I predict a headline in the Chewbacca press. Plant closing, hundreds of jobs lost. Anybody that stands to lose a job in the future, anybody who does lose a job in the future, please look back carefully at the voting record. Those that voted for the utility, the rain tax in itself, and those that voted for $3, because they're the ones that hold your future careers in their hands. Thank you. Thank you. All in my prize. Thank you, Your Honor. For the sake of the public and the people that have taken time to come here, I'd like for them to understand that the substitute resolution that has been put forth for approval sets the rate of $3 per month for the stormwater tax. I wanted to take this opportunity to thank the business community that came here today at 4 o'clock. Quite frankly, I wish I could have taken the vote then, because three of the people who opposed it were here and two of the forward were here, so we could have killed this. We didn't take the vote today at 4. I'd like to thank the people who took time tonight to come here and express their views about the stormwater tax, and I'd like to thank the public that I have received calls from telling me we will be watching tonight to see how people vote. I think it's important to note that the vast majority of the people, and I don't want to ask each individual ultimate, but the vast majority of the people don't want the stormwater tax. They don't want any more taxes. I don't know what's so difficult about understanding that, but apparently we're just having a difficult time. A gentleman today during the business meeting said, you are spreading hurt where hurt never existed before. That is pretty accurate. We're trying to be fair, and by being fair, we're spreading hurt all over everybody who hurt never existed before. So you're going to be spending money on taxes, on this rain tax. Everyone during the business meeting, there was about 25 or 30. I neglected to count at the offset, but when I did I think it was about 26. Only one person stood up and supported the rain tax, the stormwater tax. All the other people who were here who were businessmen opposed it. I think it's important to note why there were key words, buzz words like, it's unfair, it's inequitable, it's a job killer, it's a double taxation unit. You're not spreading or hurt where it should be if you want to spread hurt. The other thing I wanted to point out is that I had this terrible feeling today, and I get it again today, is that people don't trust us anymore. They don't trust this administration, and they don't trust this council. I've heard them say it a day, and I've heard them say it lots of times. You people have already made up your mind. You know what you're going to do. You're going to pass it anyway. Whether 80 people come and oppose it, or 100 people call each individual all of them, you're going to pass it anyway. I'm not. I have been very vocal about my opposition, and I will continue to be vocal about my opposition. The motion to repeal, I'd love to put one forth, but I know I'm not going to get the votes, and you'll be able to determine that yourself by how the vote goes tonight. So I would ask this council to please, please, if you are listening to your constituency, and you know the people are watching, vote no on this resolution. Better yet, why don't we set the rate at zero? You wanted a utility. You've got your stormwater utility. Let's not go tax the people for it. Thank you. Thank you, Alderman Perez. Alderman Stephan. A couple of comments. I think I haven't heard it here. I heard Tom explain it very well when we were at our finance meeting, our joint finance meeting with Public Works, and I'd like to have him explain Alderman Ryan Fletcher's concern, one of his concerns about the smaller houses versus the larger houses. That's something that clearly seems unfair to everybody. When Tom explained it at finance, it's a $300 million house, but on the other hand, you've got a whole lot more grass typically within a green space that absorbs the runoff, and therefore it is pretty equal as to what how much runoff it can... Go ahead, if you would. That's right. The smaller homes are on a smaller lot. They have a percentage-wise or more pervious area than green space. When you get to the larger homes or more expensive homes, they have the larger pervious areas, but they have a lot more green areas, and the green space is what saves the water in the grass. It does not go into the pipes as fast. As long as you lay water for getting into the system, the more capacity we have. Thank you. Alderman Van Aker. As long as you're up there, is a double-flat going to be charged more than a single-flat? A double-flat or a three-unit will be charged 0.7 ERUs for each unit. So... How does it come out of dollars? Per unit would be $2.10 per unit, versus a single-family would be $3 a month. And a double up and down? Each one would be $2.10. For a smaller house and a smaller... But a double-flat is generally it's larger than a single-family. Now, down and out right here. You look at the city on the average, I would say that they are larger. Alderman Reinflash, back to you. Thank you, Your Honor. We have heard an explanation for why smaller homes of lesser value will pay the same amount as larger homes. And on the surface, that makes absolute sense. But keep in mind who lives in the smaller homes. These are the people with less income. They can't afford larger homes. Yes, we want green space, but we'd be dictating the people that they have to go buy a large mansion in town. I refuse to believe that whether it may be equitable, square foot-wise, I don't believe it's equitable on a human level. Thank you, Your Honor. Well, I know what the end result of this would be. I do agree with Alderman Forrest that we have established the utility. It's in existence. Let's fund it through the budget. Therefore, I will make the motion to amend the substitute resolution putting the ERU at zero. There's a motion on the floor. He can make this amendment. Second. We have a motion to second it on the floor on the floor. Hang on. And that's for zero rather than $3. We'll vote on amendment first. That's for zero. No charge rather than $3. A household. Pat, would you call the roll? Yes. Berg? Boney? Graf? Manny? Montemayor? Perez? Rinfleisch? Stefan? Van Akron? Vanderwill? Warner? Wenninger? Bauman? Three ayes, 11 noes. We'll vote on the other one. Just one thing I want to comment. Alderman Forrest brought up that it seems like the trust has gone in the city. That's why we're holding these meetings. We held three meetings so far to let the public know if the public wanted to come up. They were invited up here. So I think we gave everyone ample time to come up, discuss this issue. It's been kicked around since 1996. We weren't doing any closed doors meetings. We had everything out and open and laid out for discussion. Alderman Orner. I just a couple of points to clarify. Tonight we are passing a rate that doesn't mean we're carving out how it's going to be applied. In the case of Alderman Van Akron's question regarding two family homes where one is above the other, that's something that could easily be changed by this council to be one unit. The same as others, but a duplex where they're side by side, that's something we could easily change to say, yeah, in this case you got side by side duplexes, you paid two units, or 0.75 unit or whatever for those duplexes. So that's something that can still be done. We're not saying how we're going to charge it. We could even change it. We could phase it in in some cases and we could make other stipulations as we go along here when we investigate this further. But we are setting the rate and we believe that based on the ERUs in the city, three hours is what we need to maintain the system and move forward with the program. So I think that's an important clarification. As a city, we need to share certain costs in the city. One of those is streets, another one is water management, another one is our water company. These are core infrastructure things in the city as well as storm water management. And yeah, 30 or 40 years ago we didn't have to worry about it as much. Most of it ran right into the lake and right into the rivers. Well that's not happening anymore. We have more hard surface in the city. There's a lot more issues involved here. We had over 800 homes in the city in 1998 where people had severe damage. People waiting in the street, crying on the streets, basements collapsing. The 7th district, we're fixed. I've got the 29th and Seaman Avenue pond. $6 million was it? We've got many sewers up the kazoo. I don't have to worry about it. I can vote against this and people in my district can say yeah, Alderman Warner voted against it. Great. We got our area fixed. What about the city of Sheboygan? That's what this is about, the whole city. This is not about one little area. It's not about splitting political hairs for personal gain or other issues. This is about the city of Sheboygan. It's important. It's needed and we should support it. Thank you. Alderman Mori. Thank you, Your Honor. How many of you people were here in 98? How many of you were on this council floor? I think not even half of you. Since the flood of 98, I've been called to the intersection of 17th and Ashland at least four times. I remember one time I was at a public works meeting and Tom Houlton said I got to leave. We got flooding at 17th and Ashland. I didn't think too much of it. But I thought well, after the meeting, I'm going to stop and see what's going on. And I'm getting closer and closer to that intersection and is that the mayor holding up a manhole cover? Sure enough, you were about up to here which is higher on you by the way than it is on me in water and it was it just kept raining and kept raining and kept raining and we call these 100 year storms but they happen every year and then a Mr. and Mrs. O'Neill approached me and we went to their house and we stood in their basement in that much water. How do we tell those people we don't have the money to fix their problem? We fix the north side but we don't have money now to fix the south side? We've got to treat everybody equal. I'm sorry. Thank you. Well said. How quickly we forget August of 1998. Alderman Weninger. Thank you, Your Honor. Yes, I took an oath as an altar person and my oath was to help Camelot Boulevard. I live on Camelot Boulevard. The flood of 1998 was devastating and I promised the people on Camelot Boulevard which is going to be in 2006 that they will look out their window and not have to worry any more. Will there be another flood? They can live safe and healthy in my area and I will support the stormwater fee. Thank you. Thank you. Pat, would you call the roll please? Graf? Aye. Manny? Aye. Montemayor? No. Moody? Aye. Perez? No. Rinfleisch? No. Stefan? Aye. Ben Akron? Aye. Vanderweal? Aye. Weninger? Aye. Bowman? Aye. Berg? Aye. Bonet? No. Ten Ayes, four Noes. Motion carried. Thank you. Move forward. Move to the second adjourn under discussion. Hearing none, all in favor? Aye. And I'd like to thank everyone for coming. Thank you for all your input. I don't have any changes that I would make right off the cuff. Once elected and certainly getting into that position and operating. I'm sure there's going to be areas that you want to change whether it's from a personal standpoint in terms of how I operate versus the former treasurer, but first we'd have to evaluate to assure that the office is operating efficiently and productively and from there we can evaluate the other areas of its investments working with other municipalities and maybe more or less as a resource for them. There's a number of things that we looked at but it has been running smoothly. I think Sandy's done a good job and we've got plenty of time to make improvements, but I certainly be working to improve it as long as it's time to work. All right, that concludes our audience questions for the candidates for treasurer. We will proceed now with the closing remarks. Max moves two minutes for each candidate and we'll begin with George and right then. Thank you Jerry. Ladies and gentlemen I've spent most of my life the last 25 years I've spent finding ways to serve the public whether it's in the military as the elected clerk in town of Herman two terms on the county board and on the one hand I have to say this year has turned into politically what I would call a male stream of greed I have never seen in 25 years from the politics I've seen this year from the governor's office right down here to Wakefield makes me really regret even getting involved with this year. One of the bright sides of that is that people are listening. My favorite quarter of the year I was a member of the National Police to stop for breakfast at BJA's restaurant all the time on Thursday mornings I run into Mayor Jim Shran and my favorite quote is his words to me look in the eye and he said certain county board supervisors ought to put a trend around the city and that came as a result of some comments I made to a Rotary Club about how things are financially running in the city and I'm pretty proud of that. I mean someone's listening and I think if there's anything I can provide for the people of Schwoing County it's a voice. A voice perhaps they can't provide because they don't have the time one of the talents don't have the fearless disposition and I know Jim's watching tonight and I look forward to more reports like that because it means he's listening maybe it doesn't mean he likes what I have to say it doesn't matter because I answered only one my brother my savior Alright nice closing remarks come from Glenn Marcus Well I believe and I hope you believe that I have the background the knowledge, experience and concern for you to taxpayer to be your next county treasurer Thank you Pretty sure that was under your timeline Yeah Alright that does conclude our I'm sorry I'm not letting you out of here I apologize that almost concludes That was completely unintentional Laura Hennig Lorenz I didn't script your name all night Laura Hennig Lorenz please take your full time Thank you Terry I would like to thank the Chamber of Commerce for inviting me here and giving me the opportunity to communicate my platform I would also like to thank the volunteers and the audience for taking their time out of their busy schedules I appreciate the interest that the media has shown during this exciting election season and I would also like to thank Jerry Bader for his expertise in doing an excellent job as moderator and also the panel for taking the time to review the questions I would like to encourage people to come out and vote on Tuesday November 5th You have had the opportunity this evening to view all three treasurer candidates and voters cast their ballots based on electing the most qualified candidate It would be my pleasure to serve Sheboygan County as the next county treasurer and to serve the taxpayers of Sheboygan County Again please vote on Tuesday November 5th because your vote does matter and it will make a difference in the local political community Thank you Let me make sure Yes, that does do for this evening I would like to thank the candidates for taking part Thank the Chamber of Commerce for sponsoring this event