 Hello and welcome to Pookey Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, how can transactional analysis help improve behaviour and wellbeing? And my guest is Steve Russell. So my name's Steve Russell. My work, my day-to-day work, I genuinely feel really privileged and blessed that I get out and I get to do what I love doing. And which is essentially helping people to draw the best out of themselves and indeed those that are teaching, supporting, leading and sometimes living with as well. So using a lot of psychology in very practical ways with very much a focus upon the positive, what's going well and well enough and how might you make some tweaks to make things even better? So we came to be talking on the podcast because of transactional analysis and the question for today's episode is, how can transactional analysis help improve behaviour and wellbeing? So we probably need to take a step backwards a little bit there and start with, what is transactional analysis, Steve? That's a good question and it's probably one that's particularly pertinent given that I guess a lot of people will be tuning in more possibly from the world of education. Transactional analysis probably isn't something that they're particularly familiar with, but in essence it is a school of psychology and like all schools of psychology, it aims to help us to make better sense of behaviour, whether or not it's our own behaviour or indeed that of children and young people in our schools, or secure units, children's homes and the like. Just very briefly here, the origins of it go back to the 50s with a guy called Eric Byrne and I think this is a pertinent point given that I'm talking about how it can help us within education because Eric Byrne as a psychotherapist was really keen to try and shift the boundaries between the therapist and the client. It was almost like a bit of an act of rebellion of he didn't want clients, patients, sitting on the couch and him interpreting everything that they were telling him. He wanted to devise a language that would try and create a greater sense of equality between the therapist and the patient or the client. And I think here the relevance for ourselves within the world of education is that all of his ideas are very easy to get your head around, certainly the core ideas around from TA or transactional analysis. And then subsequently after he first developed it within the field of therapy, it's now been expanded across organisations, so we've got a lot of organisational consultants using it, coaches use it and indeed people within education use it, both for staff themselves but also teaching children some of the ideas from TA to help to develop their emotional literacy. So what are the kind of basic ideas there? What does it actually look like kind of data? Yeah, what does it look like? Okay then. So a couple of quick thoughts then here. It's perhaps worth emphasising that a core assumption of TA is that I'm okay, you're okay, which might be a book one or two people have bumped into along their travels. This idea of that we've all got an intrinsic worth and value. And it's really out of that place and a belief that we can all change that then there's a range of ideas that look something like, for example, the idea of the parent adult child ego states. So this is demonstrated pictorially, I like visuals of three circles stacked on top of one another. And the idea quite simply is that, for example, within the classroom, a lot of the time I'll be in the parent ego state. I'll be essentially making sure that children know what to do and following through when they're not doing it. And I'll be blending that structuring side with hopefully a lot of nurture as well. So if you like, you've got both the parent who's in charge in terms of making sure that expectations are followed through, but also that there's that caring, nurturing environment within the classroom. And indeed there might be times when I slip into using the child ego states where perhaps I get a bit stroppy in the classroom because I get really, really frustrated with with certain youngsters or indeed I'll pick up more likely children's child ego state behaviors. And the idea with within or one of the ideas within the ego states then is that we try and put as much energy into and occupy the adults ego state, which is about as being grounded tuned in very much in the here and now, and then working out navigating our way through. So how much do I need to lean in here around structure and how much do I need to bring in perhaps an added dose of nurture, for example, or do we need a little bit of fun and a different energy invested into the classroom. So that's one idea is what TA looks like. And how did you come to be kind of using it in education can you tell us a bit about you and your your journey and and why. Yeah, so so I first came across it as a behavior support teacher. And I was fascinated by, by how the ideas that were being shared with me on that training really helped me in terms of forging healthy relationships with with folks in schools so where I'm typically as we have support teachers working with class teachers and it really helped me the importance of contracting importance in other words and making sure that we're really clear about the expectations in terms of why I'm in the school and what the teacher should be doing and what the youngsters should be doing, not senior leaders should be doing and so often time isn't spent checking out those expectations and that's when we sometimes end up in some sticky situations. So I then started to really investigate transactional analysis. And for myself was really struck by the take on child development actually. And so I guess in terms of how it's really informed and shaped my be my my own practice as an educator has been looking at how how the child development theory that TA has can really help us to look beyond youngsters behavior to their underlying developmental needs. And with that I've actually got it with me I created in partnership with some behavior mentors down here in Lincolnshire. The behavioral, which is a way in which we can actually start to track a youngsters development right from birth and up to an including the teenage years. What does that I can say I for those who are listening, I can do a very colorful kind of rainbow coloured many blocks what what tell me about the behavioral and charting their development. Yes, it's charting their development. So the idea on the behavioral posting people only get in touch with me I'm happy to send across PDFs for them. But essentially the wall has has different layers of bricks. And so each layer corresponds with a different developmental stage. So the bottom stage here which is the red stage is the being stage, which is first visited between the ages of naught to six months of age. This is the baby coming up the safety security warmth and familiarity of mom's wound into the big wide world and it's a scary place. And so what the baby needs to do is to start to get these developmental tasks under their belt, or perhaps using an energy of the behavioral starting to get those bricks in place and the bricks essentially around to call for care. To accept touch to accept nurture to bond emotionally. So it's very much around attachment theory but in a way that I find is readily accessible for folks working in schools. And what I love I love about this particular take on on child development is that it's not just about what the baby or the child does. But it's also here on the flip side of the poster that you can see a bookie is there's a lovely range of affirmations supportive messages that will that will essentially help to optimize the youngsters development through their particular stage that their first visiting. So for example for the baby, the affirmations here are you belong here what you need is important to us. We're glad you're here we want you to be here want to care for you. We are glad you are you and you can feel all of your feelings. So we get this this great interaction of what the baby needs. And this is what key carers will do often quite instinctively and intuitively to support the baby's development. I was going to say it feels to me like it's the sort of thing that the staff, you know, like in the role you were originally doing this in behavior support. I come across people who just do this all the time anyway and I find I don't know if you find this in your training but often my role is about helping people to realize what they're already doing well and helping them understand that yep there's science behind that keep doing it do it more. I could not agree more pooky and you're talking my language because absolutely. Again, in terms of sharing certainly in terms of the behavioral which is based I should say here on the cycle of development. That's the theory within TA. But but absolutely I mean I think gene geniusly Clark who first came up with the cycle of development theory tracking youngsters through the different developmental stages. She she's done such a good job in terms of giving up giving us giving me the gift to be able to go into schools and say you're doing this already you just didn't know that there was a science of theory behind it. But keep doing it and do more of it and hold on fast sometimes with some youngsters because we really have to persevere don't we. Absolutely and when you first came to understand about transactional analysis and you're working in behavior support. You kind of change your practice like what were the first things that you started doing and maybe what are the things you encourage others to do. Yeah. Okay, so having heard about the cycle of development theory. I then saw this this theory that gene came up with this is such rich material we must be able to get out into schools. And then off off the back of that the shift that happened for me in terms of consultations with staff was so often the conversation with a class teacher would be Steve I don't know what else to do with this youngster. He's so immature often he not exclusively so but when it comes to behavior. We could get into that as to why is often the boys who seem to raise their heads as it were but anyway the conversations yeah he's so mature what else can I do. So then follow through on that tell me more about your sense that he is so immature that there are gaps in his development. And then we were able to start to match what the teachers observations were around the behavior so really dig into what is it what is it that you see the youngster doing. Let's move from he's disruptive to what do we see what do you hear. How do you feel when he's behaving in these ways because of course how we feel can give us clues as well as to what's going on internally for the youngster. And then starting to to to guide the teachers and the Sencos further down that road of OK so it can be more precise now so you're saying that it feels like he's a toddler at times. Well what does a toddler need a toddler needs plenty of things to do but safely we need to channel that energy. Sometimes it even feels like he's a bit almost like baby ish. He won't leave my side. There's all this attention seeking behavior that's going on and reframing that as attention needing because just as a baby will call out for care and needs that support. He might be a year six he might be 11 or she might be 13. If we can go back and support the youngster and we visiting those developmental stages. That's what's going to help them to to hopefully move move beyond these bumps that they're experiencing and indeed to flourish. And are there particular groups of children that you find yourself kind of working with more supporting more and when people are asking for your help your training. Yeah and I think that there's been quite a shift and I would say a welcome shift that now it's far more working around attachment and trauma. And so again helping staff particularly drawing on ideas from transactional analysis. You know absolutely supporting from the point of view of no you're not psychotherapist you're not counselors but you're educators in your flipping good at relationships. And if it's the relationship that heals then that's where we need to focus our energy so very much a lot of work around attachment trauma aces and developing staff awareness around those particular areas. And how about in the current context so this podcast will go out in a few weeks time but let's be honest it's going on forever so we're mid pandemic probably will be for some time. And yeah the world has shifted quite a lot in the last few months has that changed the kind of calls for your work and the things that schools are facing. Yes, yeah definitely so I would say here that two things. There's definitely been an even stronger focus on schools part in terms of wanting to understand better how they can, how they can support those children and young people who are perhaps particularly struggling around COVID. We know it's not necessary it's not that everybody is being traumatized in ways that really visible, but definitely scores been more tuned to that. And also alongside that actually a real, not a real but a growing awareness of just how much this is taking out of staff in terms of staff well being. And so a lot of my support around the coaching and the training is, is, is sharing with staff some ideas that will help them to take better account in the first instance of just what this is taking out of them at the moment to protect go with the idea of energy they're pouring out so much energy on a daily basis and often from places whereby themselves internally they are struggling with a lot of anxiety and stress and pressure. So providing staff with with some ideas that will help them to make better sense I guess of their own behaviors from that point of view. And are you being kind of welcomed warmly our staff recognizing the need for this is it leaders recognizing the need for their teams or you know what what how's that kind of feeling on the ground. Yeah, for my experience, I'm really in coach and heart and I think there's been quite a shift anyway that's been going on over the past five to eight years around schools broadening their perspective on behavior. And so I'm finding certainly that schools are really open to looking at doing things a bit differently whether or not it's around children's behavior, or indeed as I say around staff well being. And do you think this will last I mean are you kind of opening up relationships and dialogues here where you're looking at the medium and the long term or is this a question of let's grab this moment while we can and. Okay, whilst people are receptive. That's that's a great question. I would say a mixture of the two but I want to focus myself personally upon the long term so I think there's absolutely an opportunity here that's been presented to us in parts because I'm noticing that school are finding even greater courage to say, yes, we're about the academic, but in the middle of the global pandemic, we have to take care, take greater care and attend to more of the emotional and psychological. So how can we do that. So, so I'm finding more doors are opening at the moment for me, but what I want to be doing is very much forging long term relationships with schools who are who are not just going to be responding or reacting in the here and now but looking to see that this is actually natural fact, carving, they are carving a path forward, which I think is going to offer opportunities for a more holistic approach to education. And what does that, you know, kind of like because there are all sorts of different people who will be listening and some will be, you know, teaching assistants learning support behavior mentors but there will also be heads and trust leads all sorts of different people what are our different responsibilities within that kind of hierarchy or pecking order in terms of getting this right for our children to help them sort of grow through this. Yeah. Big question sorry. It is a big question but that's fun we can start to unpick that I suppose I'm starting to think about it perhaps in in different in terms of different cohorts of staff. In terms of classroom based staff, when I would include their the ta's pastoral mentors and I was doing with drawn work, I think, I think for them what it is that they can be doing is very much more of the same or what they're doing, perhaps giving themselves a bit more grace to be focusing definitely on the emotional and the relational side of things. And I think that bringing up that their knowledge and understanding because we have learned so much how we put him and when we think about about the strides that are being made in neuroscience attachment to you and I, and it's all very relevant for ourselves within the classrooms. And I think alongside that definitely them giving themselves permission for self care, because at the end of the day we can only give out what we've got within ourselves. So moving into think considering other cohorts that you mentioned there in terms of staff staff within schools. I think I think for leadership teams. I think there's sometimes quite a significant challenge of realizing that that the more conventional behavioral approaches are just not hitting the mark. In other words, yes, we can revisit we can revamp our behavior systems but when we've got an increasing number of children and young people coming into our schools who are experiencing trauma, who are experiencing a range of emotional challenges, just ratcheting the rewards and consequences, it just doesn't hit the mark. So we need to be exploring more and more sophisticated and more nuanced approaches around behavior, which as I say school leaders are finding more courage to do because it is not an easy path to go down. It's far easier to have you've got your behavior policy, we've got our systems and the youngsters they either behave or they don't and if they don't well then they move elsewhere. And as I say school leaders being far more compassionate and brave around that now. Why does it take bravery to do that. That's a good question as well why does it take bravery. It takes bravery courage for for school leaders because in the first instance, if you're a school leader. You know that staff are doing the best that they can with the resources that they've got, and they are facing incredibly challenging behaviors sometimes within their own classrooms for a school leader to say, actually, no we're not going to go down the road of exclusion. We're going to explore some other alternatives. That takes courage that takes bravery, because they absolutely risk staff being quite resistant to to to an alternative approach. They risk staff feeling they're not on on their side as it were not being supportive of them, and indeed with parents and the wider community. The courage to to really put put a line in the sand and say no we are a school community, and we are going to do all that we can to be truly inclusive here and I can think of a couple of head teachers here who in particular who have really gone the extra mile in that regard. And is this the sort of thing where you've got to get everybody on board or are you able to kind of carry some passages and hope that they will be converted after a while and how long do you have to give it a go for. Yeah, so first things first, my experience. I mean first up, if I'm being invited into school that to actually do this sort of work that they have to be at least a few people who are who are along this path at a certain point. And I tend to think of it strategically from the point of view of that, that you'll have your core who are already there and who are hungry to learn more about these different approaches around behavior. You've then got them in the next concentric circle those who are who are open to a different approach, who are not really embedded and welded to the more traditional conventional approaches on behavior. But what they need is is really good quality CPD, often I would suggest coaching and maybe supervision as well and the place of supervision within schools. Again, is it starting to be explored more. And then, I guess, as, as within, with any organization you're always going to have those, those colleagues who are right on the outer edges, who are perhaps, although I always hold out hope that change is possible, they're perhaps going to be very resistant to that. And I guess that then my hope is, is that as the leadership come around and gather around in terms of, in terms of strengthening the school ethos, those colleagues will either find that they've either got to get on board as it were and perhaps need some additional support around that. And in terms of time that will take longer, or indeed they might decide this is not the school for me now and I think that's a far better position that they actually exercise their own autonomy and say, this is not what I signed up for. And I'm going to look elsewhere. And I suppose in terms of time, I mean, typically it now I would have thought that this that in terms of the CPD and the coaching, I think you're looking at a good year of, of, of doing some quite deep dives into existing policies and practices, CPD. Some coaching, as I say, so, so that for those staff who would really benefit from, from looking in more detail at their practice, they've actually got that option. And then after that first year looking at so what is it we need to do in different schools will be in different places in order to, in order to sustain this to keep the momentum going. And what do you look for in terms of success because presumably it sounds like you're building relationships with schools here and you're going on that journey, kind of with them and how do you know if you're getting it right. And not presumably sometimes there's some course correction that needs to go on there. Yeah, sure. So how does that I know that I'm getting it right. I will know that I'm getting it right, I guess, I'm encouraged when when on subsequent visits visits staff will say, I actually tried to try to something that you suggested Steve, and not even that they then say that it didn't quite work but they're able to say, it didn't quite work but then I remembered what you said about the theory behind it. So I tweaked things a little bit. And indeed, we're now starting to see progress, it's small steps, but I'm looking at this youngster through a different set of lenses now. So that is, that is a real positive there. And then for myself, it would be essentially particularly over time, as you're walking around school and we can't walk around schools much at the moment, but walking around school and, and no T noticing that that shift in ethos, perhaps in specific pockets of the school whereby perhaps the practices weren't quite aligned to the schools values. And now they are more so and you pick that up within the emotional tone the climate within the classrooms and along the corridors. And do you tend to see or learn about kind of impact on some of those, you know, core things which leaders are always being held to account on in terms of things like attendance and attainment and those sorts of issues as well. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, and I think that here that's that's because there is such a strong link isn't there in terms of how how how all learning has an emotional base. So, so the more care that's being taken around the emotional component to being in the classroom to the teaching and learning, then we're going to see progress and strides in terms of attainment. And sometimes for some colleagues, that's, that's the tricky bit for them to get their heads around. It's like, I've got all this curriculum to teach Steve, but you're saying to me that I need to spend time making sure I'm doing a proper meet and greet. That's, that's lost teaching time. It's lost learning time. It's like, no, it's not actually it's going to enhance the teaching and learning ultimately. So tell me about a meet and greet what what what do you mean by that and why is it important. Sure. So, so meet and greet. Well, this is what again, most if not all all teachers will do in various ways, but essentially for myself. This is about how is it that I as a teacher, make sure that as best as I can. I'm, I'm, I'm reassuring the youngsters to say come in through the classroom door that I've noticed them that I'm here for them that I'm very present for them. And this can take various forms. Can't I know having worked in secondary schools that it could be quite a formal meet and greet at the classroom door. I say formal because there's, there's very much a clear routine to that. But, but although it might be formal in actual what I'd want to do is to be quite informal around that. So as a meeting greeting at the door. Yes, I'll be checking out around uniform, etc, etc. But it's, but it's how I check that out. And if I can do it with sometimes a touch of humour that light touch. That again is actually helping helping the youngsters to start to relax, perhaps bring down their levels of quarters on for those who are a bit buzzed up and a bit stressed as they come in through the door. And then continuing that on throughout the lesson, checking in with certain youngsters, building on that meet and greet, letting them know as I say that I'm there, that I'm tuned into them. And do you have, you know, would you have particular pupils in mind as you say there'd be some that you might sort of check in with, are they the ones who are, who would they be? Who would they be? Well, this again is where teachers are so canny at knowing those youngsters will actually benefit from it. So it may well be the youngster who in my class, if I haven't given them some attention for let's say for sake of argument five or six minutes, they're going to start to bubble up a little bit and they will look to get my attention in ways that are quite maladaptive, but they're performing that function of it isn't so much attention seeking is attention needing or connection seeking. So there'll be those youngsters. But also, of course, we've got those, those youngsters of whatever age who are perhaps particularly quiet. And I wonder, well, what's that about? Is it just that they're quite that's part of their personality, or do I indeed need to look beyond that behavior and perhaps find some sometimes more subtle, gentler ways to come alongside them. Because they're perhaps not quite so open to me being so explicit in checking out how they are. But it's important that you connect. Yeah, connection connection all the way, isn't it. And do you use these same or similar strategies when working with the families because for me very often when working with challenging interesting behavior in kids then sometimes we find that the families can be interesting too. They can indeed and some of my genuinely some of my most rewarding work has been working with particularly adoptive and foster carers and parents. And what's been fascinating there pookie actually is that quite often I mean again I'll be using a lot of transactional analysis. And I say a lot of it because because it just makes sense to people really quickly. And, and something in particular comes to mind is that I remember sharing sharing with this particular group, the behavioral so we're looking at the different stages of development that their own children have moved through. They were the parents and carers are very quickly making links to how we were given that I then I fostered them and then adopted this child, and that process started at the age of four. I can see how that creates quite a rupture in that youngster's development. So we then look at the affirmations. What is it, which of these lovely messages going to support that youngster, and what was really powerful was that a couple of parents and carers quite spontaneously said, Ah, I didn't get that when I was a child. I didn't get that in my childhood. And there's that real moment I can almost feel it now. Certainly a tinge of sadness. Also, how brave is that you've actually said that, and then leading into well growing up takes a lifetime. So maybe an actual fact to support you with your parenting is your parenting. Abigail here, who we're talking about, perhaps it's also about what is it that you need in your ongoing development and support, which of these affirmations seem to you that you'd like to experience more of. And that can then start to really create quite a shift because it helps the parents and carers just as it does with the teachers and the other staff. So it helps them to perhaps shift away from sometimes blaming the child or the young person for their behavior to understanding a bit more about the interaction or the transactions that are going on within the family. See, that all makes such sense. But the thing I'm wondering is how you break down the wall to get to the point where you're having those conversations because surely for many of these adults, they're not people who are going to be open to having this kind of conversation right away. No, no, they're not. And so that's where it's down to, I suppose it is a couple of things. It's about being respectful, knowing as a parent myself, how tough that is. So never going in from the point of view of I'm an expert. Yes, I have a specialist knowledge that I'm happy to share with you. So quite often a lot of it is exactly what you'll be doing in many professionals that are in our minds at the moment, we're doing around that rapport building. And sometimes parents are quite open fairly early on and other times we need to we need to engage in with them, perhaps less around the behavior more finding out a bit more about what's going on for themselves in the first instance. Because indeed, if there's still resistance, then maybe I'm not the right person to be doing that piece of work. I think that's that's an important dimension to this. And is that true sometimes for the adults in school that they're not, you know, they're not gelling with it with a child saying that maybe a different adult might be a better fit. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking in particular of those youngsters with attachment related needs, who can be really tricky to connect with them for whatever reason. I'm just not gelling with this youngster, and maybe it's part something on my part as well, if I'm really honest, we can't like all the children young people who come across our parts. Or indeed, perhaps it is something within it is something about me that that youngster is projecting on to me. Maybe it is the fact that I'm tall, that I'm a man, that I wear glasses. Sometimes it's interesting as it comes to behavior sometimes stuff stuff will say, I just don't know what the triggers aren't any triggers. Well, sometimes that was actually the trigger is us and therefore another adult may well be a better person to start to work with this youngster. Yeah, I always remember in Bruce Perry's book, the boy who's raised a dog and he talks in one of the chapters about how he essentially just by being a man and he would like roll up his sleeve to look more manly to kind of help a child become exposed to a male presence that they could learn to trust and sometimes just as that adult we can be the trigger. And I think sometimes there as well that children can be drawn towards the most unlikely seeming adults because of the ones that they feel perhaps more familiar with. So, yeah, yeah, that can be challenging. What can go wrong and what do we do when it goes wrong in relation to children's behavior. So maybe we're trying these things and we perhaps are working in a school where it used to be a bit more kind of rewards and sanctions, and we're finding that where we're getting some blow ups in behavior. Sure. Yeah, so what can go wrong and what can we do well what can go wrong, I guess in terms of along that journey if we're moving, moving away from the rewards and sanctions for some youngsters. They're perhaps going to feel a bit more confused by that because of course rewards and sanctions do give a real sense of predictability. So we might find that there are a few more blow ups. And I think that that in part, in terms of approaching those those situations, I think in the first instance is about the leadership team being being being ready for that and anticipating them expecting those those glitches and holding firm it's like yes we expect that they're going to be some glitches here, but we're going to hold fast to this path we're not just going to immediately swing back in and get the old rewards and sanctions back in place. I think also being in terms of with the children young people themselves. I think being being as explicit and as honest with them as well at times. So for example, it might be that there are some youngsters who actually start to drift around their behavior, perhaps testing the boundaries. And I do think there's a place for actually being quite clear. Yeah, we are trying things differently here because essentially what we wanted to school is for you to go out into the world fully rounded taking responsibility for your own behaviors and your own actions flourishing thriving. And what we've, and the conclusion that we've reached is having rewards and sanctions and such a rigid system, actually, that it just becomes a game I think particularly here of upper key stage two and secondary age youngsters who would be able to engage in this conversation. They know it's a game is that what we're wanting to do is called intrinsic motivation it's about you doing the right thing, because you want to do the right thing, not because you're frightened of the punishments and consequences. We're still in charge around here, there's still that safety, but it might be quite a tricky journey for us to be engaging on. My printer's making noise in the background for no explicable reason. Yeah, that makes sense. And so, and that's I think that touches on a really interesting point about kind of readiness for life because I think it's one thing isn't it getting children kind of through school and meeting the targets there and managing that but actually we want children who are going to go out into the world and enjoy it and fulfill their potential and be able to navigate the ups and downs and and presumably that's, you know, you're aiming much more for that with with this approach. Absolutely. And I think actually just just to throw into the mix here I said quite early on, I'm doing our chat here, that in terms of sharing the transactional analysis. It's not just sharing it with the staff. Eric Burns benchmark in terms of the core ideas that he was that he was developing was that a typical seven year old seven, eight year old will be able to grasp some of these ideas themselves. So for example, that idea of the parent adult child ego states you start to you start to talk to children and I've done this with children from the age of seven upwards. You start to talk to them about the idea of a parent ego states so sometimes we can be bossy you bossy with your brother or sister, but you're not a parent, but you're behaving like a bossy parent. And I bet there are also times when you're the caring parents and you look after your younger brother or sister. And so we start to offer them the children insights into their own behaviors, and they have a language to talk about their behavior. And so that in itself goes back to that whole idea around how around education, we know as educators, although the system is very much around exams and just cramming in lots and lots of knowledge we know as educators were about so much more than that. And so as I say TA really offers some rich opportunities to be to be developing guess what we've referred to as emotional literacy there. It's interesting talking about the idea of the, yeah, the children needing to be able to understand that and really apply it and presumably when you're looking for that kind of. Yeah, whole whole school or whole setting kind of ethos having the children really on board with it would make quite be different. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I've been in in classrooms where where teachers have felt. And again, this is about perhaps sometimes having a bit of courage on the teachers part teachers have been actually very happy to engage in conversations. With with their pupils with their students and ask them to be spotting well just now when I started to to raise my voice at so and so, which, which ego state you think I was in there, and the hands will go up and say bossy parent bossy parent. And of course the children young people love it, because they're actually having an opportunity to in inverted commas tell the tell the adult off. But it, but in actual about that becomes really empowering, because it starts to to enrich the classroom culture. The teacher is still being in charge and that's a key message to stuff, just because we're having these these more honest conversations with the youngsters. It doesn't mean that you're not in charge anymore. It actually helps me to be more grounded as an adult because I've got this language this framework. I can use that with the youngsters. I can say needs to be answers. I'm noticing that I'm about to go into that bossy parents that nag nag nag. I don't want to do that. So I'm wondering, what could I do now to make sure that I don't do that anybody got any ideas. So we get that collaborative nature then going on within the classroom. I'm wondering here about the different states and sort of parent adult child and whether they're kind of equal because it feels a bit like child would be the lesser state but then you talked about the importance of fun and play earlier. Yes, absolutely. Yes, a great, a really great pickup there pookie because because sometimes when people come across the idea of parent adult child, they can mistakenly believe that what they need to do is to very much be in the adult ego state that grounded a tuned to what's going on around me being in the moment. Yes, there's absolutely that dimension but as you quite likely say the times when within the classroom drawing upon that child ego state which is about that zestfulness that curiosity, imagination, a bit of spark about me. That's what's needed. And equally the parent, the parent ego state. Yes, it can be I can tip into being very bossy at times. But of course the children, the young people, they need that parent ego state within the classroom to be holding the boundaries to be offering that structure. Makes sense. And I'm guessing that there's you have clearly got a bit of a sense of fun about you as well. If anyone who's listening can't see your braces covered in guitars. Tell me about the guitars you mentioned. Yeah, sure. Well, with this, the or rather these, these braces are my bit of fun off the back of attending one of Lisa Cherry's webinars where she was talking about the importance of presence vision presence when we're working virtually but yes the guitars, the guitar braces. I've been into guitars since I was about 10 years old and first heard Apache by the Shadows was challenged by my dad to learn it on a very old nylon string guitar. Got my head around it sufficiently for him to then buy me an electric guitar and ever since then guitar music is is absolutely my go to and especially at the moment with all the stressors and pressures I can just immerse myself. Yes, and there is something about that childlike state then actually, and I can pretend that I am Eric Clapton or Gary Moore, even I'm just strumming in the, in the sitting room or in my bedroom. I love that. Do you ever use that in your kind of teaching that the idea of you know having those things that we do just for fun. Yes, absolutely, absolutely the importance that when we're thinking about how it is that we use our energy, particularly at the moment. Staff in schools, there's so much energy a heck of a lot of energy into being in charge isn't there. Yeah. I would say even and I think really very much around that, that new routines, different expectations because of COVID and plenty of care. So all that energy going out there and with my hands are pushing it upwards. What about the energy that's related to that more creative sparky self at times as well and indeed the importance of getting out into nature. And I think the thing here pookie is that is that all that I'm saying here I know is absolutely common sense we all know what what is that we need to do to take better care of ourselves. What I like and I'm perhaps sounding a bit evangelical about transactional analysis, what I love about transactional analysis is that is it helps me to understand even more so how important those things are. And that's something that I offer then schools when I'm going into the schools from doing something around well being, it is not going to be Indian head massager massages and that is fantastic as they are it's more about how do we use our energy and what's the balance of energy at the moment. And perhaps the importance, in fact, not just perhaps the importance of our own self care. And I wonder how we go about helping our staff to give themselves permission to exercise that self care because as you say, we know that we should be doing this and yet I think particularly right now staff are holding a lot aren't they it feels like our school staff are holding not only our children but many of our families as well and we're looking to them to be this kind of stable persistent consistent adults in our lives. And that's a lot of pressure isn't it. It is and I love that phrase holding just to say before I come onto the permission because I think I think that really does encapsulate what what is happening for people at the moment they're holding an awful lot. And I think that that term that that word permission is absolutely spot on actually because I think many of us individually struggled to give ourselves permission to look after ourselves. We tend to have perhaps that belief of you just crack on head down, keep going keep going don't let the emotions come up because we don't want that to happen because what's going to happen then what's going to happen about mental health. And so what one of the most one of the most powerful things school leaders can do at the moment and there's an interesting win win here. One of the most powerful things they can do is is in giving permission to staff how do they do that or they give permission to themselves first. So I was coaching a head teacher only yesterday and she was saying to me two things that she started to do since COVID kicked in. The first thing is that she is now stopped working of an evening. And so she shuts her laptop down and she battles with the but there are not enough hours in the day and if I'm shutting this laptop down now what enough is there still going to be to do. But she's she's stealing herself because she knows that she's given everything during that day. So she's now leaving the school earlier, which is giving a message out to staff. She's also now revamped the staff meetings like like many schools they are virtual. So she makes sure that staff have enough time to get home and they then do a virtual staff meeting for about an hour on a quarter. And then that's it and staff are then home and they're not going back into the classroom doing the marking and preparation and the like. And then the third thing that she said that she's doing is that of a lunchtime she's going out into the school garden and just doing a bit of gardening. And again, so it's a win-win she's taking care of herself and giving that really powerful message out to staff. It is okay to put yourself first at times. Yeah, that role modeling so important isn't it. It is. It is. If I can just come in at that point at this point actually there's a lovely quote by a guy called Parker Palmer except if I can get this right self care is never a selfish act. It is. It is the only gift that I have to give myself as I then seek to give the gift of myself to the rest of the world. It's something I'm paraphrased it slightly there. But I think that's beautiful that is. Yeah, that isn't and so yes so why is actually so true isn't it. We know this on a theoretical level but actually putting it into practice can be very very challenging. I think, you know, you know, you and I we have to hold ourselves to account there as well because we're trying to lead the leaders and indeed indeed absolutely. Yeah. And I've been clocking that for myself in terms of working from home so much noticing how my boundaries are not so clear at times, but also making sure that I'm doing things such as make, for example, absolutely booking my my coaching supervision for example, and making sure that I'm topping myself up from that point of view. Yeah. Yeah, it's really important. Wow we've covered a lot. What, what thought would you like to leave people with what would be your closing thoughts. Give yourself permission to put yourself first. It is all too easy I think to get caught up in martyrdom at its worst level or its most extreme level. People have come into education they have come into it because they're wanting to make a difference. Absolutely. And I think there's something about honoring yourself and that sense of purpose of vocation. And by making sure that you are indeed exercising that self care that you're recognizing that you're not being selfish, because when you when you do exercise that self care, you're going to go back into the classroom back to your staff. And you can finish just with that little bit more to give out at a time when you are holding and containing so much.