 Yeah, I know same here. It's on it's on it's live. It's live. Hi. Welcome. We're about to record a podcast and you get to watch Hello, hi glasses Men don't buy The glasses help yeah, I'm getting to the age you ever you ever get to the It's starting to get to the point where I'm like, I probably just need to wear glasses Did you do that was me to I work I work glasses all the time and I'm a little bummed to say that like when I have to read the side of a little app bottle aspen or medication They take my glasses off and I shut the bottle like Depressing I'm a holdout still that Good for you. Keep I mean I hold the line. Don't get me wrong I've worn I've had glasses since I was in second grade and then at some point in high school had contacts Okay, and yeah, I haven't had to resort to reading glasses or anything of the sort yet No, it was like two years ago. The doctor was like, you need reading glasses and I'm like, okay so I did the thing where I had him on a chain around my neck during the day and Tried not to have to wear him all the time and then eventually I was like just gave me the progressives and Be done with it. Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of luck. I'm not lucky I have like severe myopia, but it also means I don't need reading glasses, but When you age your ability of your eye to focus the muscles that area around your Iris is stiffens up. It's like, you know, it doesn't flex the same way you have to do stretches You have to do I I wish I wish there was something you like Oh, just blink your eyes 20 times, you know the left and the right downward dog. Oh, do you know? You're contending by another contact prescription if we're gonna compare how bad eyes are I don't even have Okay, I don't work on I am often told like oh my eyes are awful and they'll tell me they're like a minus five or something like that I'm a minus eight point two five. I'm a seven something Yeah, don't know that When I take my contacts out and take my glasses off. I'm I'm essentially a blind person. I Am but I still drive occasionally like, you know when I'm switching between sunglasses Yeah, no, what I do is I find a nice stretch of straight highway and no no cars And I just like I only drive on straight roads. It's fine. Fine. I Figure you drive fast enough the wheels the centrifugal force will keep the wheels steering straight Like people grow it up when I was in high school. They're like, no, it's okay. I've had a couple beers I just drive slow. It doesn't work that way. I think that's where you drive more careful when you've been drinking I always been told yeah, right Okay, I'm gonna I think I'm gonna play the chip tune for to open us up today just for kicks But oh it's one final thing Ryan when you see colors at the top of the rundown change you're not tripping That's just me and that yellow just means to wrap up and red means. Okay move on to the next story. Got it All right here Where am I? Oh there I am Here we go Daily Tech news show is powered by you. Yes, you to find out more head to dailytechnewshow.com slash support This is the Daily Tech news for Tuesday, January 30th 2018 from DTNS headquarters in Los Angeles on Tom Merritt and from studio feline I'm Sarah Lane and joining us today editor-in-chief of PC perspective very happy to have Ryan Shrout on the show How's it going Ryan? Good, how are you guys doing? Well, Ryan's gonna talk to us a little bit about specter and meltdown just how much you should be panicking or not We're also gonna get into why graphics cards are ridiculously expensive I can't decide if I should invest in Bitcoin or graphics cards wait those two are related, right? Yeah quite a bit Yeah, so that's coming up also our producer Roger Chang is here. Hello Let's start with a few tech things you should know Sources tell Bloomberg that Verizon is dropping plans to carry it while away phones The US government is also pressuring Verizon to end collaboration with Huawei on 5g standards That trend continues snapchat has added 40 skin tones 50 hair colors 50 hair treatment options and more to its bit moji Advertisers bit moji deluxe launched in snapchat Tuesday gives you more customization options use all that stuff Facebook is banning any ad that promotes crypto currencies to try to prevent people from advertising what the company is calling quote financial products and services Frequently associated with misleading or deceptive promotional practices the ban includes currencies like Bitcoin or initial coin offerings Otherwise known as ICOs and binary options. I see oh, huh? All right. Here's some more top stories to kick around Amazon Berkshire Hathaway and JP Morgan Chase are forming a super team Actually, they're forming a health care company their own company So they will be the three investors in a health care company meant to cut the cost of providing health care to their employees So the company says its aim is not to make money But to focus on providing simplified high quality and transparent health care for their more than 500,000 US employees combined Anytime Amazon gets in on something like this heads turn because the pharmaceutical industry has been In dire terror of Amazon moving into their space the way they have logistics and retail and cloud services, etc and and then they team up with Probably what is the most respected investment company Berkshire Hathaway and and powerhouse JP Morgan Chase? This has caused a lot of health care stocks to dive today And I assume both Berkshire and JP are Majority investors in Amazon. I mean why else would there be a Yeah, I don't know what the split is between the three of them But they're all three putting their money into this health care company. Obviously Amazon can maybe provide a little technical Assistance Berkshire Hathaway is an investor in all kinds of insurance already So they've got some expertise there, you know as does JP Morgan Chase Well, I mean, it's not like health care is all that great to begin with so, you know I mean, I think I was an Amazon employee. I'd be like show me what he got. This is what's so interesting This is three major companies saying the The high-profit margin businesses out there that offer to us right now are not acceptable So we're gonna disrupt this market Because you know what we can afford I mean Amazon is the poster child of running on thin margins We figure we can run on no margin We just won't have any profit and it will bring down the costs enough and improve the lives of our employees enough That'll be worth the investment Kind of a crazy crazy thing to think Ryan. Do you do does this make any sense to you? I think it's a it's a Fantastic experiment to mess around with right because what Amazon can do with this is they basically in the story It's talked about that they're targeting these three companies employees So you don't have to about building out an entire national system You build out these kinds of infrastructure and systems where you have these employees where you have these major Amazon centers or or JP Morgan Chase centers. I think the idea of You know, they're not getting into medical distribution are but are they going to open up doctors offices? Are they going to hire doctors or are they just kind of doing a negotiation between these larger insurance agencies for their employees? Roger pointed out before the show to me that Kaiser started as a construction company wanted to do the same thing So it'll be interesting to see if this turns out to be an HMO or something like that Moving on 100 child experts from multiple child welfare organizations in the US and the UK signed an open letter to Facebook Asking it to end its messenger kids app The kids app was meant as a safe way for children to message friends family with parental approval and supervision while younger than 13 which is The minimum age to have a Facebook account the experts are concerned that messenger Exposes children to social networking too early, which has been shown at least in some studies to cause harm They argue existing phone and text messaging services are enough and Facebook messaging app for children not necessary Facebook says its app was designed in cooperation with online safety experts Yeah, I remember when we talked about the launch of messenger for kids We gave Facebook credit for locking it down. It's it requires parental approval. It does not seem in any way To be exposing kids to things that they shouldn't be Parents decide whether friends are gonna get approved and who they get to talk to and so it felt like it was a pretty safe Offering what these experts are saying is yeah, yeah fine, but we know why Facebook is doing this It's to get people used to Facebook so that then they'll start using regular Facebook when they turn 13 It also encourages them to make connections that they might not need to make otherwise and chat in ways that they wouldn't if it was Just a phone call or text messaging And so there they're sort of arguing that it on its own may not be bad, but the things it leads to are I'm just not and that's very valid But I'm just not really like what is Facebook messenger even as an adult. I use it quite often It's not really any different than text. I mean It's not really providing something It's mostly one-on-one communication. So Yeah, I'm like, I'm not exactly sure like what is you know harming children specifically that's part of the Facebook kids app But I do agree that it's like yes We all know that it's the company trying to get you locked in before 13 I think if anything in my experience using the Facebook messenger app It's more separated than I would like it to be in some cases, especially on my mobile device So if they keep that separation for the kids version of the app, then I don't see how it's any any different if anything If you take this option away from kids, I feel like they will go to other You know chat options that maybe don't include the same type of parental controls and restrictions that this has been proven to have Yeah, I I felt like you guys did a part way through reading this story But then as soon as they said like look kids can just have text messaging, right? You know and parents can can keep an eye on that. I sort of see where they're going like you don't need messenger There's no need for messenger unless you want kids to get used to messenger so that when they turn 13 They're like, oh now I get to use more of Facebook and it could lead them to want to try to sign up for a fake account It could encourage them to do that instead of preventing them from doing that These experts say look the kids that are going to sign up for a fake Facebook account I'm not going to be deterred because there's a more limited version of messenger available So I I think I went from being in disagreement to being convinced by this by the end I mean, I think the you know that the underlying issue here is is social networking safe for all of us particularly little kids But it sounds like more and more people are like we need to think about this. Yeah a preliminary report on the FCC's Investigation into the mistake Hawaii missile warning was released on Tuesday The report cites a written statement from the employee who sent the false alert saying the employee meant to send the warning believing the internal announcement about an inbound threat was real now previously it was believed the employee just mistakenly selected the wrong menu option we use that as an example of the importance of UI But that's not what happened according to this employee Here is what the report says the midnight shift supervisor, which is the overnight guy ran a spontaneous drill At the 8 a.m. Shift change in order to protect practice handling a crisis at that hectic time You want you know the shift change is a time that throws in a lot of variables You want to practice that however the day shift supervisor was not informed and therefore not properly in a position to supervise the test Also according to the report Several employees verify that the call started with the phrase exercise exercise exercise But the middle text of the call use the phrase. This is not a drill. It used the official text Although it did end with exercise exercise exercise the employee in question claims. I didn't hear exercise exercise exercise I just heard this is not a drill. So I sent a real missile warning Right before the show the AP reported that according to the director of the Hawaii emergency management agency major general Joe Logan Vern Miyagi who is the administrator for HEMA has resigned The employee who sent the mistaken alert has been fired and another employee has been suspended without pay right It's like first first of all, I'm surprised that the employee is talking publicly about what happens Oh, he's not this is a written statement that was given to the FCC and the written state was included in the FCC's report So yeah, he isn't even talking to the FCC the FCC complained about that They're like we can't really verify them portions of a statement because he won't talk to us So this is this is a this is a mess is what it sounds like now people are saying that Supervisor should be fired an employee has been suspended without pay We can guess that might be that midnight supervisor and the administrator resigning because this all happened on his watch Right, what do you think? Listening to this. It's like the employee was confused. Okay fire people, but it's like it sounds very confusing Sure, I mean nobody was trying to send an alert, you know to like scare everybody. It's like it's I Don't know. I think I think drills need to exist for a reason however, I Think most of the time people have to have the knowledge that there is a drill occurring. Otherwise, you're going to have a mistake like this happen, right? The fact that it says in the automated voice through their systems This is not a drill, right is in retrospect a really bad idea No, that that was a mistake that should not have happened They've since put in an implementation that it takes two people to verify a missile alert before it goes out So that that one person's mistake can't cause this for everybody because they have three people doing this at a time But but yeah, I mean it when you hear this is not a drill You either believe it or you don't you want people to believe it. That's why you only use it when it's actually not a drill Move it on Axios reports that Apple is delaying some iOS features until next year 2019 to focus on addressing performance and quality issues such as a refresh of the home screen and in car user interfaces improvements to core apps like mail and updates to photo editing New features still on dock for 2018 include improvements in augmented reality digital health and parental controls software head Craig Federichi announced the revised plan to employees at a meeting earlier this month Yeah, I don't know after Axios sort of overstated the importance of that presentation of the National Security Council the other day I'm starting to Look look at them with squinty eyes But this does fit the facts Apple has had so some major missteps in Reliability and security in the end the way things are communicated So would make sense to me if they did say, you know what this round the updates gonna focus on on the basics focus on improvements I mean, I'm just glad that I know what's going into iOS whether you know stuff's being added or taken away It's more information than I've ever had before Ryan, what do you what do you think? I think after the controversy surrounding the the battery issues the battery life the degraded performance That's probably coming into play and some of this as well as how do you better message that maybe? How do you even better optimize for it? Makes sense. It's kind of surprising that they would say that this is gonna take up the entirety of 2018 As opposed to a couple of quarters maybe of of the year But you know if they want to focus on getting things back in the right direction before adding a bunch of new stuff like Animated animated video emojis or something like that. I could see that being a good idea Yeah, and according to the access article improvements in augmented reality digital health and parental controls will still be worked on so Obviously they're not throwing the whole team just at the fundamentals at this point There will be a few new features Mid to high-end graphic cards from AMD and NVIDIA are in short supply due to Cryptocurrency miners buying them in bulk if you've shopped around lately You've probably noticed those prices going up sometimes double what they normally would be Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies require miners to solve increasingly difficult math problems in order to create a coin So miners use stacks of GPUs to do the math You spend a few thousand dollars on some GPUs and you can mine a couple of bitcoins You're up tens couple ten thousand dollars the more coins that are mined however the harder the problems and the more cards you need hence the Constant purchasing of the cards for this NVIDIA has been asking retailers to prioritize gamers when they're selling their cards Some outlets like Micro Center are giving discounts if you buy the cards alongside other parts so that it kind of proves like No, I'm building a gaming machine and I'm not not building a currency mining machine And the space is moving toward application specific integrated circuit cards or ASIC cards that mine at Unprecedented speeds and consume less power than a normal GPU because they are met Specifically for cryptocurrency South Korea's the bell even reported today that Samsung is making these ASICs for a Chinese mining equipment provider I may even start mass production of those just getting into the business directly. So so Ryan Look at at this market. How long are we gonna have to put up with these these high prices? Are the coin miners gonna keep it artificially inflated forever? You know, I don't think anybody really knows that I think what we can try to do is Estimate based on the value of all these cryptocurrencies And it's important to note that in reality the the price of Bitcoin like people aren't mining Bitcoin the GPUs anymore They're mining these altcoins these alternate currencies Ethereum for example But it all kind of tracks with the value of Bitcoin to some degree So the more valuable it and all the other currencies become the more valuable the mining capability becomes thus the more valuable These GPUs become We either there's only two things that will really solve this issue One is nobody wants to mine anymore Which would occur if we see this big fallout of cryptocurrency and Bitcoin or we see a drastic increase in production of GPUs themselves Well, and and I would think that as coins move towards a six that takes some pressure off too And and this idea that Samsung would start making a six directly itself might help because it increases the marketplace for that But what you're telling me is for every Bitcoin that starts moving or into needing a six There's a light coin or or some new coin coming along where people like oh, but I can use Nvidia for that And there if you look at Ethereum in particular like it was kind of created with the mindset of trying to be ASIC You know like basically to not be capable of being moved to an ASIC right so that was actually one of the goals for its creation Because once you start once once a cryptocurrency is ASIC Moved into that segment it basically becomes a race to the bottom in terms of how high the difficulty becomes and and who's Going to generate that that money the quickest so Ethereum was kind of created for that and Ethereum is probably is the second most popular behind Bitcoin And it's probably where the majority of this this mining is still still based So does that end up just pushing people into buying consoles then? I think that's one of the possibilities right is that if you decide if you're a gamer and I don't want to spend $2,000 for a machine that should cost 1200 bucks Then you know buying a $500 Xbox one X looks pretty tempting actually one of the things we were looking at here recently is For people who want to build systems these OEM boxes like if you go buy an HP or something You know off the shelf at Best Pi desktop gaming system You used to be paying you know a hundred to $200 premium for those over of our building at yourself now Like we've seen examples where it's three or four hundred hours less than building at yourself So it's completely Shaken up the market people are looking at gaming notebooks in a different light as well because in terms of value for your gaming dollar They look more impressive. Yeah, that's an interesting perversion of the market Right where where an OEM has struck a deal to buy graphics cards at a certain price That is now maybe half the price you would pay on the shelf thus making it more expensive to build The machine yourself and RAM prices are going up, too Yeah, system memory is kind of following the same trend as as as graphics partly because of Crypto mining and so every system that you build has to have some system memory But it's not really a key component You can get away with low amounts of memory low speed memory low cost memory But basically the the entire memory industry is is wrapped up an idea that they can't quite get enough inventory For to meet the demands of both PCs notebooks You know SSDs and even like mobile phones, right? So you get like an iPhone or a galaxy device that has 256 gigs of storage That's using up a potential huge amount of the available inventory from guys like Samsung and Micron that are building this Yeah, and and you can't just turn a flip a switch and increase capacity, right? It takes a while to get fabs up and running. Yeah, they're they're expensive They're huge capital expenditures where they have to you know measure whether or not Hey, we could spend 50% more and build it 50% faster But will this market die off a little bit at some point and then we you know are left holding the bag I don't think there's any reason to believe that the memory ecosystem will ever decrease from this point going forward It will only ever be more valuable But you're probably looking at 2019 before you see any of these fabs really come on board to address the inventory problem So it sounds like there might be a little more hope for for RAM coming down with where graphics cards is less Less sure certain what's gonna happen there? Yeah. Yeah, and and there's there's so many players that have Kind of their pull on it NVIDIA and AMD in production You've got to worry about places, you know an interesting fold is TSMC and Samsung and these guys who are building Potentially building these GPUs now They have to compete for these wafers and what the inventory throughput is it with people building asics for mining, right? So there's another reason why GPU production might be lower in the future There has been because of that increased demand for people who are willing to pay a lot more money for it Because it's a for-profit thing for them as opposed to just you know gaming Well, thanks to Rick on Twitter for pointing out that extreme tech article in RAM right before the show and folks If you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes subscribe to Daily Tech headlines Available on the Amazon Echo the Google Home anchor app and at DailyTechHeadlines.com All right with the recent specter meltdown processor flaws still fresh in everybody's mind We wanted Ryan to come on and talk to us About how this affects us as PC users I mean, there's there's one thing about how it affects you if you're a sysadmin at a data center Which I know some of you out there are but let's start with us at home should an average consumer Delay upgrading their PC hardware because of this Ryan. I Don't think so right the I believe that the the security risk is Pretty minimal and I believe that the performance impact for a normal consumer is going to be very very minimal as well with these patches and these microcode updates The real performance impact comes in to very storage or network intense things things that you would see in a data center in a virtualized environment things like that or consumers doing gaming or Productivity or video workloads. You're not going to see very much but based on testing. We've seen and testing. We've done It's probably Sing it's definitely single digits probably low single digits I think there are plenty of other reasons to avoid upgrades as we just talked about memory GPU prices, right? Don't think the CPU security issue is one of them So which processors for for folks who are just worried about what they already have which processes are affected right now. I Mean essentially all of them within the last decade right Intel has a Intel is the only processor vendor vulnerable to the meltdown Version of this specter applies to everybody whether it be an ARM processor in your phone Apple Intel AMD whatever their variants on it You know variant one updated through software in your operating system It doesn't have any significant performance impact variant two is the one that's kind of iffy where we've seen you know Intel release Intel Microsoft release patches patches redact patches and put out a thing to remove those patches because they were causing reboot issues But in honesty, this is Affecting everybody essentially that's running on a on a PC if you can view this on your PC You're probably affected by it in some way now. What what causes this? performance degradation of the fixes we've talked about it a little bit before but but for people who haven't heard that or Maybe just needed me at run by again You know why why is it that? This fix the fix is actually not worse than the cure but but causes a new problem so the the Feature that's being taken advantage of for these security issues is called speculative execution It's basically the processors ability to guess what you want next try to pre-compute it so that when you ask for it It's ready quicker or immediately the Essentially these fixes Remove or reduce that capability to do that so it's basically the processor can no longer guess ahead What data you might need or what calculation you might need done? So essentially you that's where your performance degradation comes from and it's it's unfortunate because a large portion of the processor architecture improvements we've seen over the last Decade or really built around the idea of how can I make this processor? Guess what it is going to need or have to do next in order to improve performance And Intel has said it's releasing new processors With fixes in the silicon right with with a whole new architecture to address this Is that going to be better? Is that is that something people should think about waiting for? I? Was actually surprised when they said that at their earnings call that it would be that soon I think if you look at the differences between an AMD and an Intel processor and how they Are affected by this AMD has always said since day one that they have a near zero impact by the specter vulnerabilities Intel never said that they had more patches Essentially the that's the way that the speculative execution works for guys who really want to get down to it It's just how these page tables are managed in the processor AMD does it a little bit different than Intel Intel's was attempting to be more performant More speculative and now I think what you'll probably see is they pull that back and they look more like AMD and that specific feature set Dead is it fair to say that you you you'd be better off buying an AMD chip if you're buying something new right now Or is that is the difference really that minimal? I think from a consumer Platform standpoint, I think the difference is probably not enough to change your opinion one way or the other if you were favoring an AMD build Because of a price performance difference You'll you'll still go that way if you were favoring an Intel build because of some particular workload That you that you were focused on that's probably still going to remain The question mark is we don't know for sure because of the reboot issues that were present in the most recent Intel patches and the fact that they have now pulled those back We don't actually know what the performance is going to look like they may come out with a new one next week and all of a sudden It's 15 percent slower. I don't believe that will happen, but I can't say for sure Well folks if you want to keep following this PC purr.com is the place You guys have been doing a great job over there keeping up on this kind of stuff for us. Thank you Folks if you want to participate in our subreddit submit stories of vote on I'm a daily tech news show reddit.com and facebook.com slash groups slash daily tech news show Sarah Yo, do you have the mail bag around? I do um gautam on hope. I said your name, right writes in saying I want to Right, I'm writing to you about a clarification regarding adhar usage in India This is we were talking about this yesterday It is indeed mandatory to link to bank accounts and credit cards and there's now a deadline of March 31st of this year Before which accounts without a linked adhar can get frozen automatically. He also links us to an article I'm an Indian citizen living in California and Indian expatriates are not allowed to get an adhar while living abroad and hence My bank account is exempt. Oh, thank you for that that must have caused my confusion because I remember yesterday I was thinking I thought there was a way you didn't have to have a bank account And it's because you haven't done it yet because the deadline isn't yet I guess they just extended the deadline. It was going to be December 31st They've pushed it off till March 31st. So you've got a little more time to link that but wow That is really pervasive the way that they're connecting that to everything and insurance apparently as well according to this article that he sent So love getting the the on on the scene reporting From from Galvin Galvin Thank you and also thanks to Ryan for being here with us Ryan let people know where they can keep up with everything you do PC per comms obviously the place to go for that if you guys want to find me on Twitter for whatever ramblings Those might be very simple at Ryan Shrout for that. Thanks for having me guys. I really appreciate it. It's fun Yeah, it was fun having you and and and helping us kind of clarify some things about what's going on a couple of Thorny perspectives on PCs, which is what you do The naming was on purpose Once again PC per comm of course and a big thanks to everybody who supports this show and allows us to do The show every day. We're up 23 patrons over last year last month And we want to see how far we can get so hang in there if you're still a patron And you can at all keep supporting us We really appreciate that and anybody who's been on the fence now's your time jump on in right before the end of the month And get all the perks when they come at the beginning of the month at patreon.com DTNS If you want to get a hold of us our email address is feedback at daily tech news show comm We're live Monday through Friday at 4 30 p.m. Eastern 21 30 UTC Elf geek radio comm and diamond club TV and our address is daily tech news show comm back tomorrow with Scott Johnson talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network Get more at frog pants.com Yeah, it was great. Thank you Ryan good stuff Ryan. Yeah, that show was The show moved I liked it Yeah, we covered a lot of ground well like you guys covered up I mean there's a lot of information, but it moved like yeah, yeah, it's gonna say the one thing I'm good at is making people change the subject I was gonna say that you've done this before you're you're good at explaining things without having to use An inordinate amount of words and and you yeah, well, yeah, I've done I've done More than my fair share of five to seven minutes spots on on video. So yeah, you're practiced. Yeah Very cool What should we call this Roger? I like Mojams mind your own GPU business mine Am I any that's that's funny? Yes And the fallup would probably be bio Kyle's test. This is not a test test. Is this a test. This isn't a drill Like that one too Yeah, I'm good with that I Like mine is nice. I don't know why that has like a old-timey feel to it I Also want to know how Nvidia is like Coaching retailers to be like are you a gamer? I'll tell you this card The the way they're attempting to do it first of all Nvidia can't tell them what to do, right? Which is also really important. They're very careful about because they get into a whole bunch of regulatory issues But they're basically like hey, maybe don't sell graphics cards in packs of 10 That would be the first option Right Other than gamers don't need 10 graphics cards. Correct. Exactly. My question is idea is actually a good idea crypto miner at Best Buy the the idea that Micro Center has is is an interesting idea like hey This video cards $800, but if you buy it with a processor and a case and a power supply It's $500. I don't I don't know the exact numbers, but like that's an interesting idea because if you're a You know cryptocurrency miner you actually want to buy like one system and five video cards And you're gonna buy a very low-cost processor motherboard, you know minimum amount of memory all that type of stuff so The problem is It almost has to be like I think I saw that it was worded somewhere like at managers discretion Right because somebody has come up and say yeah, no, I think you're legit I'll let you buy it at the good price Which is not it's not it's this level of call of duty and I'll drop the price Right and you don't want to have to do that. You don't want to be in it like we talked about all time of As soon as you start policing stuff now, you're responsible for that for that police work Right and you don't really want to do that and at the end of the day if microcenter can sell a card for 800 bucks and for 500 bucks You know I get it. I want to celebrate it or bucks. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's I think it sucks, but I get it It's So the question is is there a marketplace way? That this shakes out and the asic Development seemed to be the way out, but If there's always another current cryptocurrency that you can try your hand at I guess you just have to wait for the cryptocurrency market to peak and bottom out Yeah, I think it either needs to bottom out or it needs to be like There needs to be a regulatory decision on which one's going to be used and how and then that will force The alt coins the the dental coin the vet coin all these other things that Don't need to exist or probably don't need to exist and definitely don't need to exist as like you know investment opportunities type of thing, uh, we'll we'll get shut down which is Where some of that will come into play when the cryptocurrency bubble bursts And everyone's like, oh, you know, we leveraged high and we lost Is there just going to be a glut of GPUs that you can get at uber cheap prices on ebay because that's Yeah, there'll be a ton of GPUs that you'll be able to buy in ebay and you'll have no idea what the lifespan on them left will be Right because they've been running 24-7 You know max power draw are close to it and in hot environments And then if you're AMD and Nvidia, that's why they don't want to increase production Yeah, because they'll they'll have a glut They hope Crip like they they you know might say, okay, it's going to take us three months to get a whole new We'll place an order for 300 more than we've ever produced before inside that three month window everything crashes now. They've got Chips that they have to sell for way lower than they were expecting the competing against their own products that they sold six months ago Yeah Now back on the sale market. It's if for AMD and Nvidia You know, they don't talk about it a whole lot because they don't want investors to be overly Invested in that portion of it like they don't they don't want people to feel like AMD and Nvidia are dependent on that For growth because everybody understands that it's extremely volatile. Yeah So let me let me ask you because you you brought an interesting point Are you suggesting that like used video cards are probably one of the more sketchier? Like used pc component items to get I mean Yes, I think fundamentally a card that has been run On full power for 24 hours a day for six months Is not a product I would want to buy and put in my machine Right as opposed to a card that is maybe used two or three hours a day For gaming on on the high end of somebody right on average over that same six month time period You're talking about a 10x fold in You know the the odometer if you will on those parts would you tell though like you can't like there is no odometer on a No, you can't tell you can't tell um I I would bet if if I were a betting person that AMD and Nvidia can tell that there's some counter In their firmwares and the firmware or something that maybe keeps track of that But these guys who are doing mining are smart if that if that does exist they could clear it, you know Revert back to different firmware or something like that. I don't know but it's It's more complicated than any situation that I've ever had to deal with in 18 years of doing this So, yeah, no, it's it's a unique situation for sure already gone way longer than the last kind of bubble We saw as well Well, I remember when bitcoin started to crater Seeing a few people say oh, thank goodness. Maybe this will make gpu's Prices come down and I was thinking all those people are using asics so You need all of them to crater. Yeah, so All like all the big wins anyway If bitcoin follows ethereum and vice versa, like that's what you want to track is kind of the market as a whole Um bitcoin is down, you know peaked at 19,000, you know 900 A month ago now it's it was below 10,000 today So I think if it stays at that level you will see the reduction of demand Right because now somebody who buys a 10 ati instead of making 10 dollars a day. They're making four and a half dollars a day Uh now your your payoff period goes from You know 80 days or 100 days to 250 days And it's a much less enviable position to be in it just needs to be At that level long enough for people to give up Stop buying cards or part start putting cards back into the market And and and the thing is some of those smaller coins are actually doing They're holding their value better than bitcoin has Um Which is why I don't think we're seeing any relief quite yet. Yeah. Yeah It's fascinating though It is if it didn't fundamentally disrupt everything else because other thing we can talk about is like If you're a guy selling cases or power supplies or Motherboards or even if you're selling like intel and you're selling 8,700 k's or higher end rise in parts Those aren't being sold at the same rate They would be otherwise because people are just completely putting off their system build Yeah, because they can't get the graphics card that they want so It really will have a really good shadow and cloud Server places who are like hey get that machine here over the over the internet You don't have to lay out anybody It's a compelling option Yeah And I and I do think I think the the oem pc option is interesting. I think the console gaming market is interesting um but Yeah, can I it's weird in many ways it has parallels to real estate like When real estate investment gets become speculative it increases the prices By by an exponential amount But the knockoff effect is that it increases the cost of living people are are kind of shunted the different areas of a region because No prices are so high and it's not necessarily because There's a huge demand by Homeowners to live there but by investors who want to Put their money somewhere I I bet a very interesting paper could be written about the analogies to the san francisco housing market And uh in gpu prices I was born of that today. It's crazy in the past 40 years We were just up in san jose with my sister-in-law and They were talking about the fact that They're thinking about leaving the bay area even though they both have good jobs there Because they can't move they can't afford to move anywhere That would be the equivalent of somebody deciding that they were gonna buy an xbox one x and they had both pc's their entire life I'm going to leave the pc area because it's too expensive now. Yeah. Yeah That would help No, that's crazy. You know what like when when the when was san matel county was thinking about giving Was it a subsidized housing benefits to people who made less Than a hundred thousand dollars a year because housing prices are so expensive Yeah, it's just great. I mean there's a reason Pretty nuts It also says something to me that you decided to move from san francisco to la because of housing prices I know Super cheap. Yeah. Yeah, there's a guy. I mean On the whole you can get cheaper stuff in la. I would see Right, right apples to apples compared. Yeah It's not the cheapest place in the in the country to live, but it's cheaper. Oh, yeah By the way, amd just reported their earnings. Guess what? They're really solid because of the sales of gpus Not shocked On its graphic its graphics and computing business rose 60 percent year over year Yeah, and you'll any chances are if I that's that's on next to my agenda after this is to go read through all their statements and stuff Because my guess is that they're downplaying The impact of cryptocurrency mining they're upselling The impact of console sales the new xbox one x because that's their chips in there And up talking up the release of their vega parts that came out At the end, you know second half of 2017. Yeah That'll be interesting to see what they say. You're right. I want to tell you who bought them. Uh-huh Yeah, because right now I'm just seeing the numbers. There's no that's not got any of amd's context to it yet Yeah indeed Well, um anything else before we're out of here No, uh Thanks to ryan for being on the show. It was great. It's great to have you on Come back soon get this camera. I've got this set. I got this microphone here all the time Awesome. Awesome. We will definitely have you back. All right. All right. Cheers. Thanks everybody