 Welcome to the launch of the Deep Adaptation book. My name is Katie Carr and I'm hosting. We're gonna be together for the next 55 minutes. And I'm really, really pleased to be joined by some of the contributors to the book. So it's an edited collection. And we're gonna have, you will have the opportunity to submit your questions to ask of the authors. I would like you to turn your camera off. So everybody apart from the contributors will have their cameras turned off. If you would like to submit a question, you can do so in the chat box. I would like to ask everybody not to use the chat box for anything other than questions that you're submitting. And this is to make my life easier so that I can, what's coming in without responses and congratulations and comments. So you can submit your questions to any of the contributors or general topic questions. And then I'm going to choose and let you know if you're going to be invited to ask your question. If you are invited to ask your question, then I'd like you to put your video on so that we can see you. This session is being recorded. So Jem is intending to post the recording of this event onto his YouTube channel. So if you don't want to be in that recording, then I request you not to submit a question because we will ask everybody to put there, everybody who will be asking a question to put their camera on. Thank you very much for joining. It is a huge honor to me to be hosting this event. I know nearly all of the people here who've contributed a chapter. And I know nearly all of you, yeah, personally to a greater or lesser extent and I have a huge amount of excitement to be sharing this space with you. So thank you all for your contributions and for agreeing to join us today to share your work even more. And I'm particularly, it's not just an honor, I'm excited. I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for the people here, for the way that you all wholeheartedly bring yourselves to this work. And it's a very, very challenging topic. And a word on the fact that it's a challenging topic for everybody. So we don't have very much time together and I can feel, and maybe this is similar for some of you, I can feel a kind of hunger. I want to hear from the people here. And I just want to invite each of you to be conscious of the parts of yourself that are showing up, stay connected with your physical self. If you need to make yourself a little bit more comfortable as we're exploring these challenging topics together, then do so. And let's welcome the spaciousness in this conversation as much as the things that are going to be shared. So first of all, I am going to invite Jem, but in a different kind of format, Jem's wifi connection is a little bit shaky, so he's shared with me a three minute video of him talking about this book, which are the things that he would say now. And then I'm going to ask him to say hello shortly. So I will share my screen first of all, and we'll hear from Jem about his relationship with this book, just about three minutes. Yeah, opinion research shows that large percentages of the general public in many Western countries already anticipate societal collapse in their own countries. And significant numbers of people believe it's going to happen within a couple of decades. So that kind of anticipation can lead to positive or problematic responses for individuals, communities and societies. Depending on how we help each other process the difficult emotions, explore possible implications in our own lives. Now unfortunately, mainstream media, politicians, and also people involved in campaigning often don't welcome such difficult conversations. And so they're really only heard in private. And so people, and even people who speak out can be maligned and try to sort of be pushed back into silence. So the deep adaptation ethos, framework, community, and movement are all now helping people to process those emotions, find out how to engage positively from a place of anticipating disruption and collapse. Working out together with people what to do in their lives and their organizations. It's so much more, deep adaptation is so much more than one academic paper or one professor or one group of scholars. It really is much wider than that. And so an edited book, I think, is the best way to help show people and introduce people to that breadth of ideas and how so many people around the world are engaging this and finding it useful, how they really want to find positive ways of responding to the difficult situation we're in. I think it's helpful for people in senior positions to become aware of just how seriously scholars in different disciplines around the world now consider the risk of societal disruption and collapse and are working on it. So a scholarly book bringing together thinkers in a variety of disciplines, as well as some activists, seemed to me to be a helpful way of conveying that. So I was pleased to work with Professor Rupert Reed as co-editor for the book because he's had a somewhat similar journey to myself in his case, working also decades on environmental issues, but for him within the Green Party and as a scholar, in my case, working with environmental NGOs at the United Nations and with the Labour Party. We were very fortunate to get some incredible contributors who are really leaders at the forefront of their field. So people like Professor Jonathan Gosling, a leading academic on leadership studies, but also Professor Vanessa Andriotti, a leading educator in the field of both decolonisation and educational theory. And also for me, one of the most important spiritual guides and teachers for activists, Joanna Macy. If you visit. So I'm going to hand over to you in real life, Gem. Thank you. Hello, everybody. I've had a shave. That's the big difference. And I'm not actually in Florida. This is the cover of the book behind me. Katie, I share what you've said. I share your sentiment. It's an honour not only to have had all the contributors respond positively and share their own insights, how they're connecting their collapse anticipation with their own fields of expertise, but also to show up today. It's brilliant that we've got an amazing group of people from around the world. It's wonderful that Charlotte, Joanna, Sean, Rupert, Adrian, Jonathan, you're all here. It's really wonderful. So what I'm going to do is take a back seat. I want to hear from all of you. So I'm really hoping we get questions that Katie, you can put to the contributors. So I'll say them or just hand over to Rupert, my co-editor. OK, and now I'm unmuted. Thank you so much, Gem. And yes, a pleasure to be here with you all. It feels important. I want to start with a thank you. The thank you is to everyone who's been involved in any way with deep adaptation or to collapse anticipation. So that is for starters, everybody on this call. Because this book is a collaborative enterprise, quite obviously. But I want to emphasize that it rests on a deeper substrate of deeper resonance. In other words, this book wouldn't be happening. And it wouldn't matter if there hadn't been a huge number of people who resonated when Gem put out the deep adaptation paper and who decided in one way or another to get involved. So yeah, I want to say a thank you to everyone who's played any part in that. Because in some sense, this is a collaboration of all of you and all of us, this book that we're celebrating you today. Here's the book, by the way, if you haven't actually seen it. Yeah, it really does exist, the 3D object. It's brilliant, nice and fat as well, plenty of meat. And I wanted to add to that just a word on why I wanted to do this book. I was a sort of earlier doctor of deep adaptation in 2018. One of the earlier people, I think, to read the paper in the sensational aftermath of its release by Gem. And back in 2018, he and I first started talking about doing a book about deep adaptation. And really the reason why I wanted to is I thought, this is such an important concept. And it's a concept which needs to be understood as relevant to everybody, whether or not they're convinced that collapse is inevitable, whether or not they think they have a timetable for it. And Gem, of course, has completely come on board with that point of view. That deep adaptation is for all of us who are aware that there is, at the very least, the possibility of societal collapse as a result of climate and ecological decline. So yeah, that's why I wanted to do the book, because I'm not certain that we're going to collapse and certainly not certain when it's going to happen. But what I am certain of is that we would be absolute fools not to take deep adaptation profoundly seriously, because the worst thing of all would be a collapse that we weren't in any way prepared for. But also, it's interesting to note that I think that Gem and I have come a bit closer together in our views as the process of editing this book has proceeded. I've edited a few books over the years. And I must tell you, at the end of the process, you're not always as close friends with the person who you're editing with as you were at the start of the process. But in this case, we've certainly become closer friends and closer colleagues. And one of the reasons, I think, is that, well, I don't think Gem's view of the situation has changed greatly in the last three years. My view has changed somewhat. I have become a little more pessimistic or, if you want, realistic since 2018. And I'm seeing the chances of our averting collapse shrink as the window of time we have available shrink. So perhaps that's made it easy for Gem and I to be closer in our collaboration at the end of this process than we were at the beginning. The last thing I want to say is this, that as Katie said in her opening remarks, this is quite self-evidently a challenging topic. I hope we get to feel a little bit of that in the remainder of this hour. And for me, the phenomena of eco-anxiety and eco-grief, climate anxiety, climate grief, are of profound importance in the kind of way that ecopsychology has helped us to understand, including, of course, the crucial work of Joanna Macy, my teacher, who it's wonderful to see on this call here today. I want to add one more element to that mix, which is not talked about so much. And I think this is interesting, which is the concept of eco-anger or climate anger, which is itself challenging in a number of ways to consider because oftentimes we don't so much like to engage with anger because it doesn't feel so comfortable to engage with. But there's a sense, of course, in which Extinction Rebellion, the movement which has sort of emerged in a way alongside deep adaptation for the last three years, embodies that phenomenon of eco-anger or climate anger. And it's encapsulated in the Extinction Rebellion slogan, Love and Rage, which is an interesting slogan, which we could discuss at length. I'm not going to do that. I simply wanted to pose that here because I think it's very interesting to think and go in deeper, perhaps, to the way in which, at the very same time as we've had deep adaptation becoming a thing, we've had Extinction Rebellion and Fridays for Future becoming a thing. And I guess my view is that if we can keep all of these emotions in the mix and allow all of them to authentically presence, love and grief and fear and anxiety and anger and more besides, well, then that's placing us in a good position to deal with the very difficult things that we're going to have to deal with right now, but also more so in the coming years. And at the root of all those things, it seems to me. And here I'm saying something which I hope may be relatively uncontroversial with this audience is love, the reason why we fear, the reason why we're angry, the reason why we grieve is because we love. And that is a hopeful thought even in the darkness of this time. Thanks so much, Katie. Is it back to you? Yeah, thank you, Rupert. I want to invite everybody to take a deep breath as a practical way of allowing everything that Rupert just said, the fullness of our experience from leaning into this topic and in some people's cases working very hard on it a lot of the time. So I'm going to shortly invite Kat to ask the first question. For those of you who have just joined us, please keep your cameras turned off. You are welcome to hide non-video participants so that you just have the book contributors on your screen. And you can do that by going to your video settings and tick hide non-video participants. And if you would like to submit a question to any of the contributors here, you can do it in the chat box, either personally to me or you can share it publicly in the chat box. And we might not get time to get through all questions, but I'm going to try and make sure that we have an opportunity to hear from as many people as we can. So Kat, you have a question, I think it's for Jonathan. Is that right? That's right. Thank you, Katie. Jonathan, a question for you in relation to leadership. As you work with senior leaders around the world, are you finding any who are ready to consider leadership for adaptation, as you've described it in the chapter you prepared for the book, as their mental framework? Is there any space for this approach yet in normal organisational life? Thanks, Kat and friends who ever posted that question in. And I think the answer is yes, definitely. The reword I'm working on in the chapter is looking at not so much what people say they would like to have in terms of leadership. The leadership was it where I want, but the leadership that people, empirically, if we look at what people do in times of stress and collapse, what is the kind of leadership they turn to? Or that they find themselves offering people and it's not often what you think or would like to know about yourself that comes up. So we do see people turn to sort of apocryphal leaders to prophets, to messianic leaders, to autocrats and people who will give simplistic solutions or solutions full of wishful thinking, often technological fixes and so on. And what I've tried to look at in the chapter is what is there about our responses to anxiety that might give rise to more adaptive responses and the kinds of leadership that will help us towards adaptation, particularly deep adaptation that we're concerned with in this book, which is a little bit different to what might say, normal adaptive behaviors. And I think there's a lot of sign. And what I've argued in the book is that that's people who have a capacity to really pay attention to the present, to the local, to their connectedness with others. And the way, for example, Katie has been reminding us through this conversation as we delve into the consciousness, the awareness of the need for deep adaptation. We allow space for the prospect of collapse. The way in which Katie has been reminding us to breathe, to stay present, to stay connected. Is itself precisely that kind of leadership. And I think that my experience in, for example, Extinction Rebellion and in through the pandemic in my community life and the connections, I've had many more experiences than I think I've had in the past of people sort of reminding each other to stay present, stay connected, stay local and of a giving voice, giving space for those who voice that kind of intent. And I just come from a workshop with the Forward Institute, which is also based in the UK, and there are similar institutions around the world with the aim of promoting responsible leadership. And it has really been a marked shift in the last few years towards precisely this kind of what what Edgar Schein called humble leadership, the capacity to stay with each other, to listen, to be available, to have the and processes of working and discussing that open up the capacity for listening and hearing others and just being with it and allowing allowing resources, generous resources to come to the fore. So this is, of course, counter to the hurly-burly, the pressures in many, many businesses. And every time I gather with anybody involved in managing anything public or private sector, anywhere in the world, the sense of stress and busyness is there. And so it's necessary to create space, definitely necessary to create space for this kind of leadership to emerge and the people to remember the desire for that leadership to set aside the desperate longing to be saved. Thank you, Jonathan. Yeah, and reminded to take a breath again. So I'm going to the next question is from Eleanor. And so Eleanor, you already have with the camera on. And after this, after Eleanor, I'm going to go to Peter so you can be ready to turn your camera on. Eleanor. Thank you, Katie, and thank you, everyone, all the writers and having this fantastic space to explore today. I really appreciate having a chance to ask you questions. So thank you. And my question is about education. And I think Charlotte might be an appropriate respondent. My question specifically about teacher education and I'd love your thoughts on how should teacher educators teachers of teachers be preparing themselves and also the teachers that they are shaping and molding for our climate and ecological emergency? What is the role of education in this situation? Thank you. Thank you so much for your excellent question. And it wasn't something that we were able to address in the book, particularly partly because of obvious restrictions of how much you can go on for in a chapter. But I'm really delighted that you are asking this question. As we're indicating in the book, what we're moving towards is an education that is situated, not only situated in geographical locality, but also situated more in ways of being. And when we're talking about the significance of how we prepare teachers for an education that does need to move with the time and with everything that's going on around us, I think we need to put the same emphasis in teacher education as we do in education itself. And so what we're really advocating here is that teachers more than anything else become conscious role models in terms of individual agency, in terms of an ethical and practical and what can you say, holistic practice of attention. And Jonathan was also referring to the practice of attention for leaders and the same goes for teachers. That teachers become courageous, caring, trusting and not haunted by too much compliance. Too many things they cannot do. Teachers are these days defined very much by what they cannot do and sadly not much by what they can do. And I understand myself a teacher and therefore also work very much with compliance and I am not against compliance. But what has happened is that we have become very, very restricted. And so the education system that we know, not just in the United Kingdom, but also beyond, is more and more moving into a place where we are actually defined by what we cannot do rather than what we can do. And I think one of the things that we need to do immediately in teacher education is to move the emphasis onto what is possible, what should we do, try to practice and really work on the inner development of the teacher here in terms of the things I mentioned before, but also in terms of becoming the sort of role models that we would like our children to be exposed to. And I am not by that at all criticizing the amazing efforts of all the teachers who I know and who are working globally in education at the moment. I'm just saying, actually, we need in teacher education to turn our attention to the inner development as well and emphasise there what our responsibility is as adults to be the guides that we need to be in times of uncertainty. And I think uncertainty and complexity cause for new capabilities for all of us, but especially in teaching where actually creating safe spaces for children to be who they can be and who they really are is of primary importance. So, yeah, in short, I think we need to give much more attention to teaching as being and not only as doing and really look at the character development of teachers. But there's so much more one could say. I just want to leave enough space for others to speak on their favourite subjects. But thank you so much, Elena, for asking this excellent question. Thank you, Charlotte. And I know that Vanessa, you're the chapter that you contributed to this book, wasn't explicitly about education, but I do know that you have been involved in education in this general landscape for a very long time. I wonder if there's anything that you wanted to add. I agree with Charlotte. I'm just going to take my video off because it's the internet in some stable. So the need for developing capacity for us to hold space for what's painful, for what's difficult without us feeling immobilized or wanting to be rescued from discomfort or what some of us call coddled. And this is extremely important because we can't move into a different future without dealing with what we're carrying in terms of trauma, in terms of unprocessed emotions. So we have the saturation of emotions that need to find a way to move through, to be processed. And education has an incredible role to play in there. There are also the capability to work generatively with complexity, with uncertainty, with volatility and with ambiguity, too, understanding that we're living in a cacophony of information, of perspectives, of opinions. That are coming also with a saturated environment of information and a saturated environment of unprocessed feelings that we need to learn to hold space for. So the capability to work with all of this in generative ways requires us to think and to address these issues from a very different space, from a layered space where this complexity doesn't become another burden. that people carry. So interrupting the kind of education we have received through former schooling and creating something that is more useful and more relevant for today is one of the most pressing things that we need to do for all of us, for the teachers who haven't received this information before, for the young people who are going through the school system, but also for us generationally. I think what's happening is that we have an enormous gap between people who are considered to be Gen W, people who are the baby boomers and Gen X, people who are my generation, who are in the 40s and the younger people, the millennials and then the Gen Z, who are now demanding for the terms of engagement to be changed. So we see statues being brought down. We see also indigenous people and black people everywhere demanding things to be changed. So how do we approach this in a generative way without without looking away or turning our back to what's difficult to what's painful? But that but things that these are things that need to be done. So I think that's that's my agreement with Charlotte. Thank you. Thank you, Vanessa. As I was listening to to you speaking, then, I have a real sense of the as I have done before when we've spoken of the capacity you have for being connected to so many different dimensions and levels of this complex topic. I even don't want to say topic. I want to say practice is a practice. So thank you very much indeed. I want to go now to Peter, who has a question for you, Joanna. Peter, thank you. Thank you, Katie. And then thank you to all the contributors to this sport, which I think is such an important part of the discussion around the situation we find ourselves in. So, Joanna, I see you as the inspiration for a worldwide community of activists, activists who are facilitating the work that reconnects and active hope. And I'm wondering if within this community, you're noticing any change in attitude or view around the breakdown of normal life, normal living being possible, or is active hope being used as an expression for a smooth transition to an ecological civilization? Is that still being held up as a realistic expectation? And are there tensions around the differences of vision that there might be within this community of the work that reconnects? Yay, excuse me, I succeeded in unmuting myself. Can you hear me, Peter? Yeah, well, you know that this work it was first called despair, despair work. And now it's the work that reconnects, but it's the original impulse was a realization on my part that and this was in 1977. So that we were heading over a cliff and that that our society and a way of life in every area, particularly politically, but and was was not sustainable. And and we were so that the today. What we're seeing is and this is no surprise. How critically important it is to be able to speak, to give voice to the feelings of anguish, confusion, love, terror, confusion that that we experience. And so the group work just instantly is an answer to that, that we are finding ourselves able to and that this is the place we can hear ourselves. That when we're in a group that is committed to and gives practices, these practices, little exercises help you say what so, in a very simple way, without a lot of beating around the bush and just, yeah. And what is is wonderful to hear each other and everybody's a little surprised sometimes, you know, well, yes, because it's geared to be able to say exactly where you are in that moment. And and it's in the moment that we can reach the truth of what we feel. We're giving and this is done in an atmosphere that's built right from the beginning of safety and trust. And I would want to say that I soon realized that although we're listening to each other. When I see the world today, the fear I feel or the concerns I feel is that simple, that simple open sense. When I look at the world, what the grief that comes up or the feelings, just the feelings that come up when I think about the future ones, you know, just. And what I soon realized was that the person that was in most need to hear is the person inside. And so there's a process of making friends with the one inside you that is less defended and able to see there's a voice inside you. And and then you're hearing that voice from inside other people. And so a double trust, you begin to trust yourself and you begin to trust the others. And and of course, there's a great, great relief that comes with being able to storm or anger or cry together if that comes up. And so soon that can even turn into laughter or hilarity because it's such a relief. Yeah. Oh, we're here together. And that's the major thing. We're not working into this. Almost sometimes almost wrecking unrecognizable future alone. Our arms are linked. And when that breakout, this is such a relief for the present day human, particularly in the so-called so-called developed world that has been wearing as some kind of inner iron maiden or some terrible constriction brought from five centuries of hyper individualism. We are so internally isolated from each other and to break out of that, to discover that we belong together, generates so much. It generates kind of inventiveness. It generates love. It generates. Well, I'm taking too long. It's all right. I find myself in the uniquely uncomfortable position of interrupting Joanna Macy. Thank you. That's all right. It happened all the time. The reason I jumped in. Thank you so much. And thank you, Peter, for bringing that question is. I know we have another question coming up, which which connects with something of what you shared. So I'd like to invite Kimberley, if you're still here with us to share your question. Yes, I am. Can you hear me? Can you hear me? We can. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Katie. And thank you to everybody. It's a marvelous book. Yes. So and and so many speakers have already said something about this in different ways. But as a lifelong facilitator myself, I'm passionately interested in the role of facilitation in depadaptation and the importance of holding space with groups and individuals to make it easier, which of course is the root of the word for Sarah to make easier to foster loving dialogue and help people to process their responses and emotions. And I I'd love any of you contributors to speak to that, whoever feels moved to do so. Thank you. Thanks, Kimberley. I'm I'm going to have a go at this. I co-authored the chapter on facilitation and depadaptation with Gem. And I'm going to try and be. Quite brief, and I'm going to share a concept that we didn't explore very much in that chapter. It was just mentioned into the introduction. That's a concept of maplessness, which has been quite quite fundamental, really, in the way that the people that I've been working in the depadaptation forum for the last two years and the people that I've been working with who are developing this field of practice of holding space for people within the context of of deep adaptation to growing anticipation of collapse. It connects with something that with a lot that Joanna mentioned and that Vanessa mentioned as well about. The fact that it isn't learning necessarily that's required, it's really, really deep unlearning. And creating a space for ourselves and and in holding space for other people that is safe enough. To be able to look inside and realise that so much of what we take for granted, our mechanisms for me, meaning making are maps which are no longer useful or maybe not even not useful, but really harmful and these are maps about what it means to be valuable in the world, what status means. Maps about progress, maps about who am I in relation to other? And this is this has been a big part of of the work that we've done in holding space is. Is looking at othering, looking at the subtle shift in how I or any of us encounters another person and the assumptions that we make about how to be. And so one of the one of the things that I say over and over again is it's more important how we do things is more important than what we do. And it's by slowing right down in order to create space for the huge amounts historic historic emotion that has been pushed out of our modern scientific, rational reality that has then enabled the the damage that has so far been done, making space for that and making space for the for the unlearning. And in that regard, any attention on containment for people, making the container, the way that we are together, feel safe enough that it is then possible to take the risks to let go of some of our stories of self. Joe, I realize that I've just shifted from host into speaking. And there's probably a lot of things that I might have not mentioned that you think are important around that question of facilitation. Is there anything that you wanted to add, Jim? No, I think you you've. Yes, OK. I have my old self in me, as well as my post 2018 meltdown self. My old self looks at this and says, we've got a world to save. We've got people to save and you're just talking about slowing right down and all this internal stuff and showing up differently and bloody, bloody, blah. So I just want to speak to that because. We know that we make bad decisions when we're panicked. We know that from our own experience in our lives, and we know that from research. And so if you are someone who is really keen on action and you want to save more species, you want to save, give humanity a better chance, you want to give the current modern industrial society a better chance, then still these processes that we write about in the book, which help us become more aware of our habitual inner patterns, our cravings and aversions around emotions and emotions associated with certain thoughts, unless you become more conscious of that. We're not going to be we're not going to be wise. And so, yeah, finding a way of calming down and staying present, no matter how bad it gets and how bad it gets is going to include people you love and have respected for years, suddenly saying the most heinous things about what should and shouldn't be done. The psychosocial aspect of collapse. And how to stay present, curious, compassionate. No matter what mess is ahead. So this is really important. It's not about. Naval gazing. It's not about just turning inward. It's actually part of being fully present to whatever's coming next. Thank you. Thank you, Jim. And I'm really conscious of. Noticing the fact that we is used very often. We need this and we are experiencing this. And I know that that word is laden with invisible meanings. And so I want to invite a question from Jessica. If you're there, Jessica, thank you. And I'm guessing your questions. Most are going to be directed towards Vanessa. Who, yeah, I know that the chapter that she contributed to this book is most relevant to a question. OK, thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you for this event. I'm joining from Dominica in the eastern Caribbean. And we are a tiny island on the front lines of climate change and experience category five hurricanes now more regularly because of global heating. And I'm also a member of the deep adaptation forum and not a long time member, but for the last six months I've been participating and I've noticed that the forum is of a particular demographic and there is under representation from BIPOC communities from people in the global south. So my question is what do you feel? And this is directed to anybody. What do you feel are the barriers, perhaps the challenges to making more ties with communities in the global south for the forum for becoming more relevant to communities in the global south and for building real solidarity because it's true that we can't adapt deeply if it's just one part of the world doing the deep adaptation work that it needs to be a global community effort in order to save as much of the natural world as possible. So wondering what anyone has in terms of thoughts or strategies in that regard. Thank you. So thank you so much, Jessica, for that question. It is it is a worry and a concern of everyone how to to to bring together communities in historical dissonance that have different languages and different sensibilities. Right. But I think the first thing to start is to understand that collapse, what we understand as collapse is something that happens for other communities as a regular thing. Actually, in order for us to keep the privileges and securities and enjoyments and comforts that we enjoy. So if we don't address that there was another question related to progress, that the Western progress happens not in excluding other people, but at the expense of other people. We we don't have a place to start. And this is a difficult conversation. But I think there are contexts that help us address this in easier ways. And one is happening right now in Brazil, for example. So Indigenous people have been facing collapse there for a long time. But there's one that is happening right now with the Brazilian government voting to take away their lands, cancel their rights in order to open up the Amazon and other protected areas to predatory projects, right? So right now there is the start of a global campaign that I'm involved with because there's going to be a judgment, a Supreme Court judgment in August that is going to basically cancel land demarcation, which is kind of the last line of the fence for opening up the Amazon. There are several bills in Congress also passing with the current collapse government, what I think we can call it. We can call it that. And now maybe with a call from Indigenous people at the forefront of the fight in the Amazon, maybe there is a way of getting us all together in the climate movement, in the deep adaptation movement, in all the movements to support something that that affects us all. Right. So without Indigenous rights being protected, all these lands are going to be taken. And it's a very difficult thing to explain to people the connection between what happens to all of us if these rights are removed. And we know that at some point, if states collapse, the rights of all of us are going to be removed. But fighting to keep those rights as we understand the implications of having rights removed, of having our environment destroyed, of having economists fall down, could be what allows us to to get together around this. So I will put on the chat the link to there was a petition because this Supreme Court case landmark case was was to be voted two weeks ago and then it was postponed. You will have more information there about this. But I'm taking this campaign as a last warning and the last chair. Like it's a last stand that we can make with those who have been fighting for a long time and facing the collapse of their livelihoods so that we could enjoy the protections and the comfort of our of our own spaces. Right. And this, for me, is an educational opportunity for everyone not to come up as as the saviors, the or generally what we call the white saviors, but with a position of sobriety, maturity, discernment and accountability. I think the call that the Amazon leaders are issuing is a call for waking up, for growing up as humanity and for showing up differently as we face the loss of protections that we've had in the global north. But as you said, unless we have the difficult conversations in our project and the colonial futures collective, we use humor a lot and we've learned that from from communities of high intensity struggle that humor is one of the ways to be able to to hold a container for difficult things. So we use humor a lot to talk about this. And we say that there's a lot of shit to be composted, both individual shit and collective shit. And we need to learn to compost it together. We need a shit composting party in a way. But not it's not a feel good look good party. It's a party where we learn other forms of joy and other forms of of of holding space for each other in a very different way. But in that sense, we need to understand that there's if there's no shit, there's no starter if we have to start there. We have to start with the difficult things. And it's not just about the expression of feelings, because in what you're saying, there's a problem, too, of holding a space where people of color, black indigenous people and racialized people are asked to hear again about the grief of people who are not BIPOC, right, who are not racialized. And then a lot of the labor, a lot of the emotional labor is placed on black, indigenous and racialized bodies. And this may be the case for having different spaces for these conversations for different kinds of communities, at least in the beginning, so that they can meet at a different point. But I think a project or an event like what's happening in Brazil, the emergency in Brazil can actually create the conditions for us to be brought together, not focusing on ourselves, but focusing on what's happening in the world and centering the world rather than centering ourselves. So that would be my answer. But I'll open up for other people to say something and I'll put the link to the campaign on them. Thank you so much, Vanessa, and your audio and video was perfect throughout as well. Adrian, was there something that you wanted to add to that? Yes, thank you. I should make it clear. I'm speaking from the context of my experience involved with the Climate Psychology Alliance, but we have enormous common ground. And I think the experience we've had in the context of this question is relevant. And that is that we started off as a bunch of exclusively here's a bunch of white, older people in the UK. And we had a very limited membership and then gradually it began to grow word got out that we were doing something that was of interest to some people. And one or two people joined from the global south. But then others said this still isn't good enough. It's still massively loaded in favour of white people from from relatively comfortable places. And then something interesting began to happen, which is that collectively, we took that on board and we started to look elsewhere. And I can't I can't give you the mechanics or the rationale of it. But as we opened our minds to the need for a much a much wider, more representative participation in our conversations, people began to appear from from India, from various African countries, from China and from South America. And so all I can say with certainty is that the the consciousness of the of the issue under the problem seemed to be the first step towards addressing it. Thanks, Adrian. We are almost at the top of the hour. We're going to go a few minutes over. I'm really I feel quite full and I'm also very aware that there have been some incredible questions shared in the chat box that I haven't been able to go to. And also I would like to go to three three of the book contributors who are here, who I haven't been able to direct a question towards and just invite Matthew, Sean and Daniel, if you would like to share anything for about a minute, which is pertinent to your to the chapter that you contributed to or to any of the topics that have come up. I'm going to go to you first of all, Matthew. All right. One thing I didn't get to talk about very much in the chapter because it was a bit niche was the subject of local currencies, which I work on a lot. And I think this is an important subject because the money system is very, very little understood and the power of the money system to influence our lives and the economy and to restrict what we could do and restrict what is possible is also very little understood. And one thing that local governments could do, as well as anybody who can organize, is reorganize the production and supply chains to a limited extent and to be able to use local currencies within those trading circles. And this would enable a greater degree of independence from those constricting structures. So I've done a lot of work on this, but I just wanted to flag it here because I got a chance in the book and now let's move on. Thank you, Matthew. I'm glad you did. Daniel. Yeah, thank you. I'm joining as a French for the chapter we wrote with Pablo Servigne, Rafael Stevens and Gautier Chappelle, who couldn't be there. And in this position, I think there are two things I want to mention. First, there is a big movement in France called Collapsology, which started with a book of Pablo and Rafael in 2015 and has been growing to actually the Prime Minister discussing it on live Facebook a few years ago. And so there is a meeting which is happening since two, three years between deep adaptation and collapseology, which is, I think, very interesting. And to answer the question from the lady of Dominica, there is a deep adaptation multilingual Facebook group where everyone can talk about deep adaptation in his own language. And I think this is one of the initiatives which are interesting. And the second thing as my minute is running over is I'm an ecologist and we wrote about deep adaptation and science and just the the fact that, yes, from a scientific point of view, there's a strong basis for talking about deep adaptation, having a discussion about it. Also in link with the letter, which was issued later on, the scientists' warnings about deep adaptation, about collapse and the discussion which needs to happen on this. And I'll stop there. Thank you. Thank you, Daniel and Sean. You can't hear you, Sean. How's that? OK. Yes, perhaps I'll add just a few words to what Joana was saying about the work that reconnects, but it applies as well to the kinds of practices that that people in the deep adaptation movement have been cultivating and and outside of the deep adaptation movement as well. And, you know, as we as more and more of us start to waken up to the seemingly increasing likelihood or imminence of collapse in the great unraveling, speaking personally, but I see this with with others who do the work as well. What helps us stay present in the way in the ways that Rupert and some others have been talking about is to have an experience, however transient, that we are not limited to this individual biography, to this skin encapsulated ego, which feels so vulnerable and and. So one of the ways to be able to be present to the fear and the grief more fully is is to cultivate this sense of self identity that is continuous with the greater body, the living body of this earth, on the one hand, which, of course, includes all of the human communities, so many of whom have already experienced collapse or experiencing various forms of oppression, suffering and so on. So on so to two directions, one is participation with the living body of earth. The other is awakening to and affirming our integral connection with with the wider human community, so many of whom are suffering. So solidarity and continuity with the living body of the earth. This is the foundation for walking forward into a time of collapse. Just end with that. Thank you so much, Sean and everybody. It has been, I won't say a pleasure. Yes, it has been an absolute pleasure being here with you all. I'm leaving with a sense of the hunger that I that I mentioned at the beginning. There is so much wisdom here in this room. I don't mean just the people who've got asterisks before their name, but the people who have taken the time to to join and share their questions as well. I noticed at one point, I think the maximum number of people was over 180 people around the world who have joined us for this event. So thank you all so much. This video will be shared on Jem's YouTube channel. And I want to remind everybody if you want to, you can download the chat box before you leave. If you open the chat box now and go to the this is not true. If you're on a phone or a tablet, but if you're on a desktop, go to the three the button with three dots in the bottom right. And it gives you the option to save chat because the questions in themselves are really, really informative and stimulating. Yeah. And Jem mentioned some of these questions he might then address. I'm thinking particularly questions that I would have liked to go to Viviana's and Candice and Terry and many others. So, Jem, have you shared your blog in the chat? I think it's just jembendall.com. And so I'd just like to say a huge thank you to you all. And thank you for joining and be well. Thanks very much. Don't forget to consider buying the book. Because then you can take.