 Good morning. It's a really honor for us to have such a great occasion chance to to having with you and You are there One of the most famous person in in the world. So after it's especially after cobit 19 crisis, so We really appreciate you sharing the time for us. Thank you very much Thank you so much, and I really look forward to visit Japan in person So I cherish every time before actually visiting post pandemic these dialogues So we can have more common topics to talk once I do visit. Yeah, that's right I Supply it's really surprising for me that you haven't come to Japan after cobit 19 That's correct before in 19. I've frequently visited. Yes, and not after cobit 19 I see I see so I Found so many seminars out of TV programmed, you know, you're there as a guest Invited as a guest. So I thought you maybe come come to Japan in person. So but it's not true. Is that you just? Participate through the Internet, okay. I see I see. Thank you very much. I really thank you very much. So by the way I personally visit Taiwan as a private for three times and for the business for four for five times and they really I Love Taiwan as a part of the Person and we the other Ibaraki prefecture we feel very close even especially after the Tiger airline Start the direct flight from Taipei to the Ibaraki. So we had several Events We had we have the several events together and also we visit each other So and the people through in the black not only black baby other Neighbor prefecture people in Neighbor prefecture also feel the and also big become convenient to visit the Taiwan Maybe the after COVID-19 that we are Expecting that many Taiwanese people to come to the black if for the cycling Or and the people you perform Ibaraki or as a neighbor prefecture to visit time Taiwan through the Ibaraki airport. So and I really really looking forward to the post corona era, how do you see the Tokyo Olympics games from your country and how how do you evaluate? Widely popular right people are wearing those Olympic There's cars with badminton field designs and all the you know televised shows and Competitions there are very very warmly received. So I would say it's Extremely fortunate that we get to a half Tokyo Olympic During the time when Taiwan was just recovering from the pandemic It marks a transition. Yeah from the worst of the wave in May to now zero COVID in September And it's like a catalyst in how people perceived ourselves It's a declaration that together, right? We're stronger and faster Which is of course the motto of this year's olympic is about together and I think it would not be possible Even for the team in Taiwan or for myself to get vaccinated for the Olympic Even for the generous donation from Japan of the AstraZeneca vaccines are actually Japan keeps the Gifts are coming, right? We just receive another half million And I really must sincerely really really express my gratitude because without this None of this transition into postpone pandemic would happen without Japan's generous contribution Oh, oh my from my side. I really Say, thank you need to say. Thank you. Yeah, you your country gave us certain masks and when we Suffering the first wave of the COVID-19 It's a really have because the people's are all panic and asking me to The give us masks especially the medical Medical masks, yeah medical masks. I was it was a very tough time. So I really appreciate you Countries and they gave us, you know the medical mask. Have you already vaccination All the people in Taiwan not not yet, right? Oh Because we have rolled out our own Vaccine the medicine Oh, I see the medicine vaccine is available To pretty much anyone who want to get vaccinated But the truth is that many people prefer AstraZeneca or BNT or Moderna as a one and these are still in more limited supply So at this moment, we have sufficient vaccine to vaccinate on the first dose of pretty much everybody including people Younger than 18. Yeah, people as young as 12. I believe are eligible for the BNT vaccine but we have only the dose for the second dose for For the medical workers, the frontline staff and the elderly and senior people So the second dose for the younger population That probably will have to wait until November and so on before the second dose catches up for the full Vaccination of all people. Oh, I see from our the perception We we have to we can Start full full size of the economy or social activity only after the fully Vaccinization people so otherwise, you know, it's quite possible to There increase the number of patients You know rapidly like we see we saw in the US or maybe sometimes Before sometimes in Taiwan too, I thought that There's some limited Period that you have you had also their There are the patients. Yeah, we yeah, we had a level three National wide pandemic alert For a while around three months or so and that was because Musks alone Even medical grade must alone if it's worn very properly. It's not very effective against the variants Yes, I find variance. Yes, that's the main difference against the previous version, right starts 2.0 We're now 2.0 Delta There's a different version of the virus and the main difference is the airborne transmission So we did not have adequate preparation for the airborne transmission And that's Taiwan's real first wave in May, but after we changed Use of masks after we changed Way to run our schools and so on even with no lockdown We've never restricted intercity movement or in post curfew or anything like that But we did successfully Went back to zero covid Around August September. So I would say one of the main lessons learned in this real first wave Indeed, as you said, it's our vaccination at the end of the day is the only way Forward so I look forward in November Maybe when both of us are looking at a society fully vaccinated, we can resume some travel Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. Oh, you're expecting the there's a full Vaccination in your country around October or November November is likely that people who are at risk of a severe case of covid Will get the full doses required For younger people or very young people like people before the age of 11 that still needs some Experiments to make sure that they are safe for very young people. So it's not full vaccination But it would protect everywhere are vulnerable from the covid. So I did I Started Partnerships Declaration certification from the local from the local government as a as an Ibaraki prefecture for the lgp as a VT people So you're handing out the ticket. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's just a there's no legal, you know Sure, it's a part of nation. Yeah, that recommendation or just as a certificate a certification You are their partner nuts, but that helps to to that helps to accommodate living in the Ibaraki like in the hospital or in the finding their houses or Getting the services or finance services or insurance services something like so so and so so but It at that time I felt I got a really really hard reaction Especially in the parliament local government of the local government and There's a way of saying that it's too too early. We need to find the some There are consensus in the society. There's no consensus for that thought that thought you should wait but I strongly believe that this is a matter of the It is not matter of the economic policy. It is matter of the, you know, human rights policy So I think There's no reason to stop that to wait to wait or to wait to to creating the social social consensus, but because for say let's say you know Any kind of discrimination is not it's not based on the, you know Social social consensus to overcome so I put forward but I still I had a I had a very strong reaction. So I struggling to to drive their Diversity in this prefecture. So I I think this is not the unique for the Ibaraki prefecture. So I really appreciate the if you Suggest us the maybe Taiwan Taiwan as the country they legalize the marriage of the LGBT people. The marriage equality. Yes, yes, yes equality, right? So how How that Taiwan, you know, maybe I Believe that it was the same situation overcome. They're such a Yeah, such a, you know traditional old notion or way of thinking to their Diversity or inclusion or Discrimination type of mind mindset. So how does it overcome that? You country overcome such obstacles and also As I say How do you see there? the merit or power of their diversity and inclusion after the COVID-19 Their era in the Taiwan. So I really want you getting from you there is maybe a good suggestion or way of Bring the this Momentum to put forward in the Ibaraki prefecture. So can you suggest? Yes, definitely. I think Participation is really the key if people do not feel that they are included in Decision-making then they don't feel anything when a new policy rose out Right because when it's about marriage equality really it's not taking anyone's rights away It's just adding some rights to some people. Yeah, so theoretically it should be a net plus Yeah, but if people do not consult the People who are more senior or care more about traditions and so on then they feel that they are being taken away The right to decide what marriage means and that is very detrimental to these coaches Yeah, so in Taiwan we use digital democracy like electronic petition We use direct democracy like referendums We use many ways to increase the bid rate of democracy Previously it was every person voting for the parliamentarians Every time like every vote is four years four years. So like three days every four years But it's a very small bandwidth when it comes to expression of their preferences But in Taiwan when we Institutionalized these direct democracy we get a wider range of opinions So on equality for example, we have a referendum past that says People think of marriage as marriage between two families, but they don't want same-sex people's Families to be wet together, but we have another referendum that says People are happy if they are given a special act that hyperlinks that links back to the civil code But only on the individual to individual basis. So if we Put this debate on the parliament Usually it will be the two dimensions of family and individual will be conflated into a zero-sum game But through direct democracy We were able to carve out what I call Marrying the by-law like all the rights and duties, but not the law not the father-in-law mother-in-law So when two individual of the same sex did their wedding their family relationship do not change But they enjoy the same rights and duties as individual who are heterosexual wet So this is an innovation that is only possible when we include the voice and innovations of all the different Sides of this issue and essentially take all the sides So there is no innovation without inclusion and inclusion is seen as participation from people otherwise the diversity Is just about getting people on the stage but inclusion means they get to participate in the stage Agenda setting. Oh, I see that really Helping us to Think forward still I Have a question still I think there's a Some amount of people just opposing to to I had to say To listen to broader voices through the first something like the referendum or Direct Democratic democracy How to say Especially the parliament will Could be could resist to do the such things to especially such In the area of the sensitive issues, so How do you suggest us to to overcome those kind of their Opinions who Which tried to lead register register to register broaden broaden the How to say basis of their Democracy in the experience the area of the sensitive issues for them Yeah, I think we need to make it continuous That is to say not a winner take all situation But a situation where things can be incrementally experimented our National referendum although they are binding they are binding only for two years So every time a referendum passes the opposing side need to think of better arguments And they know in just two years time They will have a chance to go back and then you know again to discover a new solution to the Issue with our common value in Honda And so people do not feel they have utterly lost when they lose Referendum they do not feel they have utterly lost when their petition get rejected, but they know they can try again 60 days 90 days or two years after the fact. Oh, I see that's great idea the only Effective the two years the result of the reference reference. Oh, that's great idea. I really an impressive Solution how we can I would say Influence or how do you Move forward especially still in the national level. There's a several Defiant opinion especially Sorry about diversity inclusion. How how we should do from your Perspects Yeah in Taiwan Of course, everyone knows that president dr. Tsai Ing-wen is pro marriage equality pro LGBTQ issue, but I think that was because she builds upon previous contributors of women's empowerment and equality in Taiwan like one of our past vice president Annette Lu Who herself contributed a lot to the early movements to equalize the pay Equalize the social recognition of women, especially in political areas So we have a parliament where we have more than 40 percent of MPs are women and in the public sector We have the public service filing gender impact Assessments to make sure that they do not confuse biology with destiny for the past I think 15 16 years now So the point I'm making is that it requires a support from the existing movements the equality between women and men and then Can use reuse the same structure of the gender equality committee gender mainstreaming And so on because we have already successfully Decoupled the stereotypes of one's biology and one's social role We can then move forward to say hey, then what's about marriage and part of a civil union and so on but without This equal participation without a high number of women in parliament Without a president who is 100 percent women. We cannot even begin to have a Societal conversation about LGBTQ issues. So the feminist movement I believe is our natural and strongest ally and we really need to work on gender mainstreaming Especially in the public service. So having a dedicated Diversity and inclusion unit in your government. I believe it's a really good first step. Yeah. Yeah, I see I see and other Leader of the local government I Think we I have a lot of things to do to promote The notion of the Diversity and inclusion what's a suggestion from your Experience in Taiwan. What do you are a suggestion to the the local government in Japan to promote their Of moving forward regarding the this diversity and inclusion I believe making sure there are plenty of safe spaces It's the most important thing for a long time The pride parade in Taipei and then later in gao sheng and so on in Taiwan was considered The safe space for the LGBTQ community in the whole Asia, right people specifically Flew to Taiwan to participate in the private raid Last year, I believe were the only country that has pride parade physically During that time of COVID so it became a place where the international support came a lot of spotlight To the mayor and to the city public servants so that they feel that this is a important cultural contribution and has like real benefit to the local economy as well and Before long, you will find that this develops into something that includes the society Even people who are unaware of LGBTQ issues They will see that hey, this is a good culture to promote because it means more Innovations more visitors more people who participate in our local economy the same goes for like e-sports Local government in Taiwan promoted e-sports set up their own competitions sponsored the aims built stadiums and so on even before we in the national level Consider e-sports a sport in 2016 again against a lot of economic benefits and cultural ones as well I see I see Yeah, I by the way, I also promoting the e-sports too Oh, I see I The pride parade we also Do there are some group maybe we can invite them to do the same parade in Ibaraki prefecture Yes to stimulate the people's mindset Yes, and turn it into a economic and cultural festival. Yeah, so everyone can contribute Oh, okay Can I ask you ask you there may some some video message if we can substitute to the such many pride parades in Virtually and face-to-face with video messages, and if you do hold one and we're post pandemic I may even you know show up in person. I see. Thank you very much. I we knew all we all knew that you are the expert of their DX earlier and also the The very famous what you did as a minister in Taiwan for to tackle the COVID-19 to use through their Digital technology, so how do you think they're you know the to the coming DX? Society will help us to you know Ex strengthen their the diversity or inclusion the society How do you see there any connection between the DX and diversity and inclusion? Yes, definitely as Inclusion depends on people who feel they are safe in a space to contribute Otherwise they will not Contribute if they feel excluded. Yes, and it's much easier online than off line to build a safe space Because across the monitor, there's only so much one can do right to Make sure that the people who care about these things Identify themselves as a hashtag or things like that even in jurisdictions that are not Democratic they cannot completely shut off access to the Internet There's only so much a repressive regime can do to prevent their people to discover The people with similar interest or similar identities online So this is a natural haven for people who are diverse In a more repressive society now in democracies like Japan and Taiwan Of course, we can't build digital public Infrastructure that goes a step beyond it's not just about not Sensoring these speech it's about encouraging these speech and because you have run The business of Nico Nico, you know exactly what I'm talking about Nico Nico, there's no subculture It's just this culture and that culture because it is a safe space people will not discriminate against the less Popular subcultures within their circle. They're all cultural Participants and that fosters a creative expression that creep heads them for Conversation and dialogue with the mainstream. So having public infrastructures such as Nico Nico or the Taiwan's PTT and so on these are very important. I see by the way, you you are familiar with the Nico Nico TV in Japan, I have Participated a few times that I'm not Intimately familiar because I don't speak Japanese. I have watched the virtual spokes person of Your perfecture that Introduced first in English and then the virtual anchor says I'll just put on some English subtitles I'm going to speak in Japanese I think that that is very creative and definitely carries the style of Nico Nico and virtual youtubers. Yes. Thank you very much My teams request me to do to talk more about the DX sometimes How do you say the confuse the When we people discuss about the DX Because you know, I'm I used to be there the IT industry As a but but I do just sales but not not developer. So I my knowledge all about the Technology itself is not very limited. But still I feel the you know I Especially in Japan a long time. We are talking about the IT Sometimes it's a web to all two points zero or sometimes DX. Sometimes there are rubber rubber every time the industry creating a new new words and to to sell more IT technology That's where from Japan was a neuro fuzzy Yes, yes, yes, yes, that's that's so and I'm I'm the from my experience a little bit and afraid that people just saying the DX DX without no pointing out specific points, you know just very Broadway that we we need to we need How to say Do the DX we need to catch up the DX or something like that I I it is it Very unique as a phenomenon or Situation only in Japan or What about in in your country that you are you're in your country? Yeah In Taiwan, yeah, I had a similar buzzword. Yeah with AI. Yeah, I is a very popular buzzword But we do not have a similar one with the X. Yeah, and I believe the reason is that we've not had this IT Buzzword before in Taiwan the digital transformation is seen as part of a transformation that Still connects people to people but in Japan many time when we hear IT Yeah, it's about connecting machine to machine or Connecting people to machine. Yes, like replacing. Yeah people who answer calls with automated machines Replacing people who are doing ticketing with ticketing machines and so on so in Japan The term IT has a very strong machine to machine flavor Yeah, do it but in Taiwan. We've always talked about connecting people to people. Oh in in digital I see which is why it's not a path pass It's not a passcode to what more robots, right? Digital transformation in Taiwan. Yeah, it's always to make people Feel happier to connect the senior people to their children grandchildren in cities to connect that to their medical and Educational services and things like that. It's always connecting people to people So it has no potential to become a Automation buzzword because it's always assistive always helping people. Hmm. I see so there I think that the way of thinking in Taiwan is very The helpful for To imagine how to utilize the the technology for us the life life style or life the social activity because as I said The discussion about the DX in In Japan, it's more as you say as you mentioned more focusing too much only technology only machine-to-machine Not so without Telling the how we how that technology or how are that the notion will change our life So I think I it's good good point that we should first Focus how we we we need to change their way of life or the connect connect connectivity with the people and people to people To under to how we can use the technology to utilize such Expecting change so that's right. That's the the health way of things. So there are people How do you see the exact and the real and change of the life through the AI or DX whatever in in Taiwan you have a sold Drastic change in life. Definitely. Yeah, and I think We all know Digital can save time and make people feel safer. But I think the ultimate value is Building mutual trust trustworthiness So that people can trust each other's more. Yeah, and example During the pandemic everyone needs to do contact tracing But because of the alpha and delta variant it's no longer sufficient that we complete the contact tracing Interview and so on in 24 hours because during those 24 hours It's already a danger of spreading to the next circle to the next circle So using a new way of checking in to venues We asked all the venue owners completely voluntarily at no cost whatsoever to use their phone to Put a QR code on a website Which they came to their get to their nearby 7-eleven or family Mort and get that QR code printed out so no printer required But they just put a QR code in their front door and anyone with no app required Just scan with their camera and send an SMS To 192 to a toll-free number. So again costs required for the consumer as well So at the cost of either side now we must since May After introducing the 192 to SMS check-in system. We've sent around a quarter billion SMS messages To check in and there is no worry about the cybersecurity Because it's not sent to any other company. It's stored directly in the telecom and only when the contact tracer need the information Do they call the telecom and then when they get the information the person whose Record gets viewed they can surveillance the system and get a full audit trail of who checked their system And only contact tracer can do that and because it's very transparent people had a lot of trust In checking in and because of that we shortened the contact tracing from 24 hours to less than 24 minutes And that's what enabled our zero COVID strategy to work with. Well, because we very reliably Find the contacts and notify the contacts and quarantine them. Wow That's amazing 24 hours to 24 minutes Almost entirely automated now I see I I can't imagine why Why we don't import that system to Japan Yeah, that's great into a very impressive I'm I'm that I try to introduce the checking system at taking application It's for free for the people in the black prefecture to to sign up to using the QR code when they Go into the restaurant and then if they or any any shops or whatever and then in the case that we found some patient the of COVID-19 the week we send out Notification to the people who check check out checking in there The same Place is the same day same time. So the noticing them that you must you can be there the potential of the getting the COVID-19. So the please check out your the your situation so that that that system We launched the almost one year one year one year ago, but Still not really popular The people they are so The critical point is if you ask the citizen to type in anything. Yeah, it would fail So our system. Yes. They scan it through our code press send and that's it like two seconds So they never need to type anything. They never need to install anything in their phone So so that I think is one of the key point of digital transformation Is that you need to be faster more fair and more fun Then the previous way of checking in like writing on papers and so on for many especially senior people If you ask them to type in their phone number, they they don't work with it In Taiwan around 20 percent of people even if they have a smartphone, they never install an app So Not only is our QR code scanner not an app You can use the built-in camera, but for those 20 percent of people They don't have to scan anything because the QR code is just a 15 digit number So it's printed as part of the poster. Yeah, so for them They just text 1922 and type in the number and send and they finish the check in So it's sending a toll free sms So even people who don't know how QR code works can finish the checking by themselves And they feel very satisfied like they have learned digital confidence. They can now teach other senior people So yes, I believe thinking about diversity of people's experience with digital and inclusion Like designing way for them to manually type in that the code is important because then they feel included in the effort Oh, I see I I thought the people in taiwan Even old people can Are interested in the handling the smartphone or And also for one application a japanese application called line For many senior people in taiwan online means online. There's no other app on their phone I see I see. Oh, it's that's popular in japan too So for for yourself, um How do you, um Looking forward to the next after covid-19 as a society Both in taiwan, maybe you are The expectation for japan or the how do you look at worldwide? Uh, how what's kind of the how do we uh, how do you say? different We how we we will be changing after the covid-19 How do how do you see the future? Yeah, we're we're back to zero covid for a while now in taiwan So I wouldn't say we're post pandemic because there's always a risk of another wave But I would say we have postponed the pandemic and in this uh circumstance. I understand that Around the world people are forming a global neighborhood that is to say This is the first time that we share the same urgency on any global issue Previously for for example, the disinformation crisis the more liberal and democratic countries band together But not the more authoritarian ones for climate urgency the countries that are islands banded together But not necessarily all the continental ones And things like that because we have different urgency But uh in covid everyone is just two months away from each other In situation of the first wave or the second or between the west and so on So we share the same urgency to learn together and to share what we have found together So I believe our ideas of neighborhood profoundly changed during the pandemic I often wake up and having conversation with uh, south and north american counterparts And during daytime. Well, it's with you with japan was in the pacific And during the evening that's with europe and with africa So I'm become a time traveler about time zone traveler during the day Yes, the people who care about the same thing together will remember this And then we carry this conversation forward to tackle climate change to tackle the disinformation crisis the health of the internet And many many other Transformational issues understanding we have succeeded before working to get that. Yeah. Yeah, I see I see uh, minister, uh and uh turned out very Thank you very much. So having sharing the your idea notion and and we are Really really appreciate your time and also suggestion and your idea and I'm with trying hard to creating the The society in In ibaraki prefecture The more people enjoy their diversity and also inclusion people any any people can live their own life the So the please keep help us To creating such a Ideal for both of us maybe and so and also I really looking forward to Seeing you in person. Maybe after COVID-19 and Yeah, and also, uh, thank you very much. It is very very much my honor to have a this occasion and sorry and last time last three and I we want to ask you to Give us your message. I keep give your message to our young people and old people In in ibaraki prefecture. That's so sorry. That's a request from my team. So Definitely. So as I always quote, uh, lena kowen Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering for there is a crack a crack in everything And that is how the light gets in So let's be the light and I look forward to meet you in person Sometime in the future until then live long and prosper. Oh, oh I I got You Thank you very much. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. See you. Bye. Bye. Bye