 Yeah, it's good. All good. I keep it simple. I keep it simple. Rath of Khan. Rath of Khan, yeah. What is going on here? Yeah, we did get you something. Very confused. A small gift. A small gift. Looks like it'll fit easily. What are we doing here? Oh, shit. What's going on here? Get the fuck out of here. No shit. Where'd you guys come across this? Get the fuck out of here. How'd you score that? Holy shit. That's not real. Jesus Christ. It actually has LED lights that light up behind it and illuminates it. Oh, shit. Thank you so much, man. Dude, that's amazing. The only problem is you don't live anywhere for long in two days. You put it in storage. Shit. This is wild. Is that what you were texting me the other day about this? Oh, real Steve. Dude, that's unreal. I met this guy about three years ago or so. I don't think anybody does it as good as he does. You'll see when I open my house, I have my room done and all possible stuff that he's done. Dude, this is wild. Now this is a piece of shit. You'll see my house full of these. I've never seen anybody does anything close to it. It's nuts, man. It's all that we'll have to stick to, you know, working cards in there and everything, so things. Holy shit. Oh, this was a good one. We had two doctors on. Dr. Jordan Shallow. You might know him on Instagram as the Muscle Doc. He's the really buffed powerlifter, who's also super, super smart. And Dr. Adeel Khan. You might not know him, but he is one of the leading researchers and doctors of futuristic medicine. I mean, stuff you're going to see, he's doing now, you're going to see being done in 10 years. In fact, in today's episode, we talk about of course strength training, of course training methodologies, but then we get into, like, some incredible advancements and how you can treat yourself for chronic diseases, peptide therapy, stem cell therapy, platelet-rich plasma. But really, what Dr. Adeel Khan is doing, nobody else is doing right now. He's an expert in musculoskeletal medicine, pain medicine, and regenerative medicine. In fact, today's episode was a lot about how to regenerate the body, how to improve longevity, how to reduce your biological age, basically make yourself feel more vibrant and healthy. And of course, Dr. Jordan Shallow, one of our favorite strength training experts. He's also the creator of the pre-script certification, which is exceptional. So you can find Dr. Jordan Shallow at the Muscle Doc and you can find Dr. Adeel Khan at Dr. Akan. Akan is A-K-H-A-N. Today's program giveaways a super bundle. That's a lot of MAPS programs. Here's how you can win it. Leave a comment below this video, the first 24 hours that we drop it. Subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications. If you win, we'll let you know in the comments section. We also have a sale going on this month. MAPS Bands, half off. The Hard Gainer Bundle of programs, half off. You can find them both by clicking on the link on the top of the description below. All right, here we are interviewing Dr. Jordan Shallow and Dr. Adeel Khan. Jordan, always, always a blast having you on the show. Been too long. Been too long. And you brought someone with you, Adeel, Dr. Khan. I'm his assistant. He can hold his own bag. Most qualified assistant I've ever met. So first off, Jordan, how you been? Good, man. Yeah, it's nice to be back. Bay Area, always nostalgic to be in the Bay, especially in here, but yeah, life's crazy. That's awesome. You guys are like my canary on the coal mine. Whenever I think I'm busy, I come talk to you guys. I'm like, I got another gear there somewhere. You're doing great, man. You don't stay in one place for longer than like 10 days. No. All over the place. Yeah, it's been a while, like a couple of years, man. Been on the road. Lived on the road consistently for, I mean, it's been coming on like five years. Five years rocking up the air miles. Do you foresee yourself slowing down anytime soon and calling a place? It's tough, man. There's kind of two ends. One side, I'm sure we'll talk about today on the concierge medicine side, which kind of keeps you running, but we also have like prescript on the education side, which is you guys probably know benefits from being in one place more often. So it's kind of balancing like, you know, I have, I'm in a position owning an education company, which is crazy because like I hated school, but like I think there's always, there's value in skin in the game, right? Like the stuff we teach are the principles that I use when I work with pro athletes, but I have to work with pro athletes. Like espousing this, you know, this information from someone's basement is less valuable because it doesn't show that there's inherent risk. There's a lot of like academic chicken hawks that are sending people out in the world with information that hasn't, that they're not abiding by and they're not accepting the risks and consequences of what they're teaching, right? At the, at the level of the end user. So like for me, it's a fine balance is like a founder and a business owner and in the education space to have tried and battle tested the stuff that I, the principles that I'm teaching at the highest level, with the highest stakes. So it's like, it is a tough balance with like a digital business that is based off of, you know, it's based off experience, based off credentials, it's based off of trust in the education space and gaining that trust by, you know, being out in the world and working with athletes all over and then also being able to fall back and be consistently on meetings and being like an active part of the business and developing and growing the business. So it's been really hard like finding that fine balance. Like I have a really good team that helps take care of the stuff in a more static nature, the stuff that has to be done week in, week out while I'm on the road. But yeah, it's a difficult thing to balance because they're in complete opposition with one another. Well, and it's a lot of work for sure, but it's what also makes you so valuable because there's, you know, data, there's information that you can pull from studies and test groups. Then there's applying it in the real world and working with people. And when you combine that experience with data, that's where you get the best information in it. So it's just, it's a lot of work, but very few people can do it like you can. So we appreciate it. By the way, a lot of incredible comments from your, from people taking your courses. Always. Saying it's one of the best courses that they've done in the space. So great job. I appreciate it, man. Yeah. That's not an easy space. No. No, it's, it's competitive. And, you know, even that pose the challenges like we'll run a 16 to 20 week semester and I'll be in 20 different locations. Like I've taught a lecture. I was talking to my partner about this the other day. I taught a lecture at every hour of the day given the time zone. So I've taught it three in the morning in London. Oh my God. At, you know, 5.30 a.m. Well, I've taught at 5 a.m. this morning, but as I travel around, I still keep up with teaching the live lectures, right? Cause, you know, these things update and we tough to talk about current trends. We have to talk about, you know, emerging research and we have to talk about how this fits into like a biomechanical model that already exists. Like there's a mutable principles that we teach that allows people to start to take in and synthesize new and emerging trends in the industry. So, you know, I've committed to not making it an evergreen course and making it something that I teach on the fly. And I think for as long as I own the company we'll always do that. But like I've taught from a cave in Turkey. I've taught from a panda express. I got held up in Sunny Isles, Florida while teaching a lecture. Some guy was sticking me up for cash. What? No. They called it the mick lectures with people as our level two courses are more advanced anatomy biomechanics course. And I'm literally getting like shaken down for cash. No way. While I'm sitting in a McDonald's in Sunny Isles. Everyone's like, is he getting robbed right now? Like, oh, what the fuck is happening? Why you were live? I was recording. No way. Oh, we gotta see that. What? Yeah. This guy's like, I'm like, yo, dog, like I don't have it. I literally got my hands in the air and I'm like, yeah, so the rib cage. It was wild. I mean, I've taught. Bro, I can't believe that. I mean, Will on meds office and whoop headquarters. I did a podcast with Will. And I'm like, hey, I know you're the CEO of this like billion dollar company at all, but I really got to use your office. And so he's like, yeah, sure. So I'm like in Will's chair, like it is office overlooking like downtown Boston. Yeah, it's been fun. But yeah, there's an accountability that I keep to myself. Like, look, we got to keep this current. We got to keep it relevant. The only way I can show that is like, and I sell people look, you know, sometimes the quality is not, you know, we have a studio and back in Toronto and we'll film in there when we can. But I tell people at the jump, like sometimes it's going to be laptop. Sometimes I'm going to have like some guy shaking me down, but I do that to keep myself accountable to the things that I'm teaching. Bro, please tell me you're journaling this or logging it because there's a book here. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've written a few, I've written three of our textbooks already, but the one I want to write is like, if there's a potential exit in our future. I remember being in Australia three in the morning, I got trapped there during COVID. And so the lecture times did not work out at all. So two, three times a week, I was up at two, three in the morning and a fucking cockroach dude, like an Australian sized cockroach ran across the camera. So you just see this like men in black type alien and dude for the, I had my headphones on with microphone and I literally sat on like the, I fucking hate, I'm better now. I sat on like the kitchen island like 10 feet away. They could barely even see me. And I was like, so the next slide, if you were to see it, because I'm not going to my fucking computer. And I just, it's been, it's been wild. That's great. Bro, you're going to put together like a reel of like, yeah, keep all the lectures. Dedicated. Yeah. So tell us about who you're bringing with us. And I love to hear from. So special guests. I mean, especially like I talked about on the concierge medical side of things, there's no one who does it better in a collaborative fashion than Dr. Adil Khan. So Adil and I have been colleagues for what? Like through four or five years now. We got connected just through the sports world. He's like a hard guy to get after. Like those in the no, no, a deal. And what he does in the regenerative, regenerative medicine space, branching into longevity in a pretty aggressive fashion. So yeah. I mean, Adil, you probably do a better elevator pitch. I usually, that's the nicest thing I've ever said about you. So I'll stop before it takes a turn. I was just letting you finish. I'm like, I'm blushing right now. So no, but what he said is so important is basically like, not just being in the basement, but being a practitioner of what you're actually doing. And that big problem with the longevity and anti aging space because it's becoming such a hot topic. There's all these guys who are just scientists and lab, like lab geeks essentially, but they're not actually doing real application. So I'm a clinician scientist, meaning I'm doing research, but I'm also doing clinical translation where I'm actually helping people and actually applying real world technologies. So initially, like he said, we started out in sports medicine where we're doing regenerative therapies, which are basically just trying to restore repair tissue back to a previous state. Like most people have probably heard of like stem cells by now or platelet-rich plasma, but we just kind of have higher quality and we have different kind of levels of that stuff. So it's not just the same generic things that everyone else has access to. And so that's how we got connected because we worked on some elite athletes and getting them back to playing faster and how can we craft like a narrative where we can get them without surgery because team doctors, most team doctors, like people think, oh, you're like the Miami heat doctor, so you must be the best. But the reality is they're maybe the best surgeons. Like they're really good at cutting because they're orthopedic surgeons. That's their job. But they're not necessarily good at actually like injecting or repairing tissue or regenerative medicine, which is like cell therapy and gene therapy. That's different. That's a different specialty and you have to know that stuff inside and out. And like that's being a specialist in that field and that's what I am. So that's what I focus on, style and gene therapy and then we're also doing some tissue engineering work. But the three of those together is really what the field of regenerative medicine is. How did you get into that? Like how did you, because people are like, okay, I want to work with like high level elite athletes and whatever. How did you get into that? I mean, I guess it was Dr. Tony Gallia. He was kind of like the pioneer of platelet-rich plasma. He was the guy who actually pioneered that technology. Like PRP is old now, but like 20 years ago, he was the only one doing it. And he was the first one who started it for musculoskeletal conditions. So he treated like Tiger Woods, like Mike Tyson, like a lot of Alex Rodriguez, like a lot of big names. And it was because he was the guy doing PRP who started it all. So he was basically his claim to fame was like, I can get people back faster with injuries without having to do surgery or even just back faster. If they have like a tear, he can get them back playing in a couple of weeks. And people are like, how's he doing that? And it was just this whole idea that we can use your own body's kind of plasma to heal itself faster. But now the technology has evolved with stem cells and now with gene editing and gene therapy and there's so much more that we can do that. Like back then that was the only option. So he's still just doing PRP, which is great, but he's also in his 60s. So I kind of the guy now innovating and kind of bringing the next year of technology to the masses. And then you guys met because you guys worked on the same athletes. Yeah, collaborating with athletes, like, you know, I think a deal is probably one of the best clinicians on the more conventional medical side of things, like slightly more invasive at understanding scope and knowing when something is a functional issue over a structural issue. And I think that's where the partnership works really well when we co-manage pro athletes is like, I know when to draw the line and be like, look, this is a structural issue that can't be out-functioned. And the line might be case by case basis, blurred a little bit towards him or a little bit towards me. But I know when, because people look at an injury and there's two things, there's injury and tissue damage. And most people think of that Venn diagram as a circle, where we can operate pain-free in the presence of tissue damage and sometimes we can, sometimes we can't. So knowing how to dissociate how much of the pain that's slowing them down is as a by-product or as a by-product of tissue damage is like a key differentiation to make. And if the tissue damage is so that I, look, I can't do anything with it, an ankle, a disc, a shoulder, labrum, a cervical spine issue, knowing where the limits of my scope are and knowing when to dish the rock to him and vice versa. So Jordan, you're one of the best at, I guess I would loosely call correctional exercise. You're exceptional at what you do. You're also extremely honest, maybe do a fault. So how big of an impact does what Dr. Adil Khan does on getting someone to move better and faster? Because you apply your correctional exercise, which we're somewhat versed in. We've worked with specialists in the past. We've worked with clients. It's exceptional. It's amazing. There's no, you don't have to use any medicines or surgeries. Correctional exercise applies to a lot of situations. But then those, those situations were, I got to get there faster. You're a pro athlete. So yeah, correctional exercise, but I got to play in a week or correctional exercise is going to work because like you said, there's a tear or there's a heal. There's something needs to heal that this isn't going to necessarily fix. How big of a difference does what he does do to somebody when you combine forces? Oh yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's non, it's non-linear, right? It's exponential. Like it's a logarithmic relationship. Like if you look at scaling the rehabilitation, it's, it's not like it expedites across a linear curve. It's literally an inflection point on a hockey stick, right? Because you can make the classic, you know, non-invasive treatment for a lot of these things still, unfortunately in a lot of cases is like a glucocorticoid, right? A cortisone, right? Which is degenerative and catabolic. It's carotoxic, which means it actually eats away at the cartilage. Yeah. So literally as I kill the inflammation signal, I feel better, but now the signaling for healing is gone too. So in the classical, in kind of my world, those things were depending on the severity of tissue damage, kind of a silver bullet, because if it could give you, accept the risk that comes with it, it gives you a window to start to hopefully improve function. Because you can then move the way that you need to to get new movement patterns and so on. Exactly. Exactly. So it's that, but rather than having the catabolic degenerative factors, it has anabolic growth factors, right? So now it's like, you're getting the same, the anti-inflammatory, you know, results of like a cortisone injection, but you're getting it by, you know, a natural means of signaling and you're actually getting tissue to regenerate on the back end. So that's where you start to really hit that up tick. Okay. So you have a lot of experience working with athletes, obviously before meeting him and working with Dr. Adil, working with some of the stuff. Were you shocked at first? Because you know, you know what to expect. You've worked with so many people like, okay, this should get better in this period of time. Were you like, what the hell? Yeah. I mean, I had in the regenerative field, I had some personal experience with like peptides and things like that, nothing to like the level of technology that we're dealing with now. But you know, in the research, you start to read about the viability and efficacy of some of these things. I think it's one of those things where unfortunately it becomes in some respects like practitioner specific, right? Like you do need to, and I've watched him do this, you know, X number of times, you know, at the end of the day, the right compound needs to get to the right place. Right? These are usually site specific. So like getting to, it's really cool getting to watch him with a diagnostic ultrasound and usually has like an ultrasound technician with him guiding these things. And you're watching him? Yeah, it's sick. It's so like, if you ever pulled a paint chip off a door and you're like, oh, that was satisfying. It's like watching on the screen, like just the needle go in and we, you know, we've done a few now where we'll do multiple rounds for more complex cases and we'll be able to see like in correlate from like, I can correlate from a performance standpoint like an increase of endurance or an ability to tolerate intensity or even in more advanced cases, you start to see it in short amounts of time an increase in velocity at that joint, which is crazy because like, that's kind of how stimuli scales. It goes endurance, intensity, velocity as we get into sports, we start to talk more about timing. Like in the matter of what just recently, and I won't name names in this case, but in the course of what, two and a half weeks between Miami and Toronto, you saw a ligament in the wrist because like more or less completely heal. Like, and like it was... Wait, wait, what? That's like a three month, two month... Well, they told him he needed surgery and they said there's no other option. Yeah. And they said four options. And that's the MRI and that's the problem with diagnostics in general. And this was kind of my claim to fame, I guess, sort of speak. So I treated a guy named Muhammad Alibar who's a... He's a richest man in Dubai. So he owns the six tallest buildings in the world. And so he owns the Burj Khalifa too. And so he had the shoulder issue for like 20 years. And so they did cortisone, didn't work. They said, okay, just do physio because there's nothing else to do. So he's just a physio... He's literally a physio for 20 years, once a week. And then like we got connected actually through Jordan. And so I went... So he flew me down and then we did an ultrasound. We found some small tears and then we fixed it with the Regina stuff. And he was just like blown away. And like his wife had something similar too and I was able to fix her too. So he was happier that I could fix his wife than by himself. And to be clear, this is not just pain relief. This is actually... No, it's perfect. He's still good. No, it's just BPC-15. That's the one I'm familiar with. I've used it. Is that where you... Do you typically use exosomes or stem cells or PRP? And we mix it with peptides because peptides have a synergistic effect and they target different signaling pathways and work with the exosomes or stem cells to facilitate healing and regeneration. So a lot of times I'll mix BPC-157 and TB4 with my regenerative molecules to facilitate the healing and regeneration. Sometimes you'll do it in surgery. What? Wow. How are you getting the stem cells? So the stem cell manufacturing and sourcing is really intricate. There's a lot of details there, but the gist of it is that you have to know how to select the right donors, but you also have to know how to grow the stem cells properly. And that's the biggest problem with a lot of these. You guys probably heard of Columbia and Panama and a lot of these people going to those places. And the problem is because there's lack of regulation over there, you don't really know what you're getting. And just because... What's your go wrong? Yeah, exactly. Or just because some celebrities endorse it, they're promoting it. They're like, this is the best place ever. To me, that's predatory marketing because you're not actually talking about the science. You're just talking about the results. So to me, I'm always talking about the science. It's like, how do we grow the stem cells? How can we enhance them? What's the culture medium? And there's all these details that we go into to make sure we're having the best quality stem cells. And the way we do that is we test the cell viability, meaning we make sure they survive when we actually inject them. And then we actually have a second generation of stem cells. This is really cool technology. So basically there was a guy named Professor Yamanaka. He won the Nobel Prize like eight years ago for genetic reprogramming. So it's pretty crazy, but basically you can take any cell in your body and you can turn it into a naked stem cell. So you could take any muscle cell, any somatic cell in your body and you can make it basically into an embryonic stem cell state, which is pretty crazy. That's basically telling you your body has this innate ability to heal. In all cells. In all cells, any cell in the body. And so it's called the Yamanaka factors. And basically if you over express those Yamanaka factors, you can create any embryonic stem cell. But the problem with embryonic stem cells, they're too strong. They can cost tumors because they have uncontrolled proliferation. So this is called induced pluripotent stem cells, IPSCs. And no one could figure out like how do we use IPSCs clinically without causing tumors? They were good models for studying different diseases. But in the last few years, what we figured out was we could actually gene edit these IPSCs to prevent uncontrolled proliferations. So they're called gene edited IPSC cells and then you can have different cell lines from that. So that's the technology that we've licensed out and we basically have gene edited IPSC derived MSCs, which are mesenchymal stem cells and basically we can use those for specific issues. So we have cell lines for osteoarthritis. We have cell lines for neurodegenerative conditions. We have cell lines for diabetes. So you can have specific cell lines for specific conditions. Let's back up for a second because some people might be like, all right, what's going on here? Okay, so cell. When you start with a basic, essentially a blueprint, right? A blank slate stem cell. That means it can turn into essentially any other cell. So if you need regenerative cells for let's say myelin sheaths, right? Let's say you're dealing with MS or you mentioned arthritis to help rebuild and build backbone or joint done properly. Apparently these stem cells can then turn into the cells that are needed to regenerate. That's essentially. In a nutshell, right? Exactly. But the problem is with a Gen 1, let's call it umbilical core stem cells, which is where most people are still using. We still use them too, but the problem with Gen 1 is they don't stay in there very long. They're just, they get taken up by your immune system and they're cleared up. So they're mainly just doing what's called paracrine signaling. So they're sending signals that help to regenerate a little bit of tissue, but they're mainly just anti-inflammatory. Got it. So if you really want to regenerate tissue, it needs a constant flow of blood supply and it needs to be protected from the immune system. So the way we do that is we use 3D bioprinted hydrogels. So these hydrogels, the stem cells are embedded into the hydrogels and then you can inject them or you can put them in arthroscopically and then you can actually regrow the tissue. Let's stay there. Okay. Why is this not on the cover of every magazine, every news outlet? Exactly. Because this is like one of the most disruptors. Dude, I was reading a paper just two weeks ago. Like there was, I mean just like cerebral palsy which is like a devastating condition for like, you know, IV stem cells help this. It's published. It literally made the girl walk again. Like, imagine if that was a pharmaceutical. It would be on every headline, right? And so that's the problem with this. Is that why? Because we can't fucking patent it in one company. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's what it comes down to. And the same problem with peptides, right? Because they're not patentable. Yeah. Compound pharmacy can make them for you. Yeah. But if you go to your average doctor, they don't even know what peptides are or they'll say, that shit is dangerous. Don't do it. Like don't use that stuff. This is even crazier. Well, you just talked about something though that's interesting because I was, I'm somewhat loosely familiar with how stem cells were used before. And you mentioned something which was the fear that people would always talk about, right? Which is, genetically altered or modified. Don't do that. There's zero risk of that with that. And plus with mesenchymal stem cells or stromal cells, which is the more appropriate term, but everyone calls them stem cells. But MSCs, that's the one that's derived from like imbalcocore tissue or fat or bone marrow. You can get them from a lot of different sources, but imbalcocore tissue has the best cytokine profile. So like the most growth factors and most anti-inflammatory signaling molecules. So that's the one that we typically use. But like we were saying, we have a little bit of immune response. And so they're not going to stick around forever. So even when you do intravenous stem cells, we do them for anti-aging, for auto-immunity, for lots of different conditions. They only stay in your system for maybe four weeks. So how do they work so well is because of the signaling and immunomodulatory benefits. So that's what they're doing. So a lot of people are like, oh, I'm doing stem, and a lot of doctors will say that too. They'll be like, they promise you the world, right? And that's where they're going. But I was lucky because I worked in Dubai for like four months where this winter and then basically over there, they've been doing stem cells like expanded and culture stem cells for over nine years. They're approved, they're legal. But in the US, culture-expanded stem cells are still legal. So when you see stem cell clinics in the US, it's basically where they're harvesting your bone marrow or your fat. And those are stem cells. Those are actually called committed progenitor cells, which are basically just cells that help with reducing inflammation. Is that the only legal way to harvest? FDA, 70% of their funding comes from pharmaceutical companies. They don't want this stuff to necessarily take off, right? I think it's lobbyists that push against this stuff, unfortunately. And so there are lobbyists who don't want this stuff to become mainstream. And that's why this stuff, the podcast and getting this information out there is so important because it can help a lot of people. And it does help a lot of people. And they can change a lot of lives. And like even when I worked in Japan this year too, and in Japan, in 2014, like culture expanded stem cells. They're legal. You can do IV stem cells, like no issues for anti-aging for longevity and all this other stuff. And like over here, you do IV stem cells, the FDA will shut you down right away. You know who loves regulations? Big business that's already in business because it keeps the competitors out of the market. A lot of people don't understand that. You talk about the hydrogels that protect these cells from your immune system. Explain that. So are they encased in this hydrogel? Exactly. Exactly. It protects them from the immune system. So this is being done already. We've just licensed out some tech from a Portuguese company that already has this technology for injectable hydrogels that the stem cells are embedded into. And then we're also working with a company called Tissue Labs in Switzerland and we're making our own embedded stem cell scaffolds for regenerating cartilage. So we have an orthopedic surgeon that we're working with. Well, yes, exactly. So you have like two ports. It's a proprietary 3D bioprinter. It's one of them cells. One port prints the scaffolding and they come in together into this like 3D bioprinter. You lay it on the joint or whatever. Yeah, exactly. And then you put it arthroscopically and it resurfaces it. It can resurface the entire. The hydrogel, is that a lipid base? What is that? It's basically like hyaluronic acid, which is like collagen. Sure. Yeah, but there's different types of hydrogels and so the best and the safest seems to be just an hyaluronic acid derivative because it's biocompatible. Yeah. And that's the thing, right? Like you can put like it's out there. Like you can put people into remission like rheumatoid arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease. Like it's crazy. And I've put patients into remission with this stuff. We have a protocol. We use peptides. We use intravenous stem cells and then we actually are manufacturing our own poop pills, fecal microbial transplant, FMT because FMT can repopulate your gut and that's a huge part of your system. So that's our kind of autoimmune protocol that we do for patients to keep them in good condition. No, it's all off. Sure. Wow. So if I wanted to get treatment from you. Los Cabos, Mexico. It's nice. Mexico. We'll have that place. Okay. So you brought some tourism. I gotta ask you about this because you brought and I had to stop talking because I was asking too many questions. I was too excited. We were talking about peptides. You said there's a new technology. You said it was okay. I could bring it up because now this blows me away. So the, you know, sub-Q needle, no big deal. But a lot of people still don't like it. I got to inject my MOTC in the morning or I got to inject my, you know, my CJC or whatever. And you have to do that repeatedly daily because it's got such a short half-life. You guys have a technology where you inject it once and then it tells your body to produce this. Okay. So explain this to me what this is and how it works. So it's the world's first reversible plasma gene therapy. So let me explain the context and the history of that. So you can understand a little bit, but basically gene therapy has been around since the 90s, but it was always viral vectors. And the problem with viral vectors, they're expensive to manufacture and there also been risks with them and actually some deaths with them too. There was a death in like late 90s that happened where it was for like a rare genetic condition. They use a viral vector and unfortunately it caused an infection and then he went to like septic shock and he died. But so that set so it picked up again in the late 2000s and there was a lot of like what's called adeno-associated virus, AAV vector and that's kind of been the main state of viral of how to transfect and how to do gene therapy. But again, it's very expensive to manufacture those and you can't really skill it. So there is one company that's doing them in offshore too with AAV vectors but there's risks with them and they cost over $100,000 for like these anti-aging gene therapies. So our plasma gene therapy essentially it's a but there's no live bacteria in there. It's just a circular strand of DNA. Hence the name of our company mini-circle because it's literally just a mini-circle and that mini-circle we can transfect any peptide or protein in the body to tell your body to make more of that. So we can do that one injection subcutaneously takes two minutes and it lasts for one and a half to two years. So essentially it's giving you know this is a bacterial transport plasma. It's not active, right? And it tells your cells hey, keep making this whatever we put in there. So if you want this peptide to keep instead of taking it every day that's instead of taking my BPC every single day it tells my body to make the BPC every single day and you say this lasts for like a year or two. Yeah, one half to two years is the average time. And now how do you make it what's reversal? How do you reverse that? Yeah, it's because of E. coli origin you can just take a tetracycline antibiotic and it's a perfect kill switch. It's a perfect kill switch. We're publishing it in nature biotech I mean I think the scientist who invented it I'm not the inventor I work with them I'm not that smart I'm just a guy promoting it but I work with them obviously closely the scientist who invented it I think he'll get the Nobel Prize because this is a breakthrough technology and it's going to change the world. So if I did do this and I had to take antibiotic for something else then it may stop it and I'd have to try it again. Yeah, for sure if you had to take tetracycline for whatever reason then you would probably have to get it re-administered. Now people listening we just came off the heels of the pandemic and right away when you're talking about you know gene therapy I'm thinking mRNA and I'm thinking these vaccines and all the fear around this is different it's not mRNA. No, it's just plasmid plasmids are just they just exchange information and this is just one way to exchange information they're super safe there's been no documented adverse effects in the five years that's been studied and obviously in our phase one trial that was for safety there was no adverse effects at all. I've done it on myself I've done it for my parents and for many patients high-level prosthesis is a really interesting area because it can increase neurological drive and it can increase strength and it can increase recovery it reduces your intrinsic biological age which is really interesting because intrinsic biological age is usually not modified by lifestyle and so typically intrinsic biological age is something everyone's kind of like the Holy Grail of how do we modify this and so because it actually looks at the cellular level how your body is aging and one injection if you're over 60 can reduce your intrinsic biological age by average 11 years but if you're if you're in your 50s like six, seven years so it's pretty significant but we've had some people who are super responders like one of the girls who did it she's 28 her intrinsic biological age and then her age went down to 12 oh wow wow we've made her into a child too far would it make me contagious let's say I do this and then I go and you know make out with my wife or something like that no the plasmid literally so we say we inject it in your fat depends on what kind of stuff so they're transmitting yeah exactly it literally just stays in that area and just sends that signal to produce a peptide okay so it wouldn't be contagious no okay no that stuff yeah wow this is so potentially could this technology be used to teach my cells to make anything like what if I wanted more opiates what if I wanted more yeah no there's so many targets right and so we have a whole pipeline of products and you know the sky's the limit really because we can do any protein or peptide and the cool thing that's 9 CRISPR is like the gene editing technology that a lot of people know about that can have offsite targets this has no offsite targets it's specifically 100% accurate wow okay wow and you mentioned you had mentioned also that you could even do this with hormone replacement so if my testosterone is low rather than doing my weekly testosterone injection you could do this and it will tell my body to produce more testosterone yeah so that's probably our fourth product so our second product will be something called Clotho which is a peptide that can increase prevent neurodegeneration protects your kidneys and then the next one after that is going to be copper peptide because copper your levels decrease as you get older it's really good for skin health and like anti-aging cosmetics and then testosterone is the one after that and testosterone essentially everyone knows is the problem is like you said you have to inject yourself once or twice a week a lot of people find it a hassle this way you just do one injection and it will maintain your levels for 1.5 to 2 years and we can titrate the dosing I was just going to say I'm making 5,000 milligrams no we can titrate it and that's the beauty of it yeah we would obviously do a blood test after like a month of it and then you can titrate it and you can reduce it why those four in that order market market exactly yeah and then we want to go after like rare genetic conditions too like you know cystic fibrosis because that's a missing peptide or protein right and that causes a buildup of the secretions but that obviously we want to make revenue first and then we can reinvest that into the rare diseases but the biggest market is anti-aging, longevity, cosmetic low-hanging fruit and are you able to do any of this in the states no unfortunately Montana we can do it in Montana because Montana's governor recently approved phase one drugs so that's the only state we could do it in so we're probably going to open a clinic there but I heard Florida's governor I mean just you know he's DeSantis he's pretty he doesn't care about the FDA either so I think he's going to also follow suit soon so Florida and Montana are probably going to be good to pass we can hopefully do Montana never going to happen here in California last one that's crazy and you had some big investors and you can't can you name any can you talk about any of them yeah I mean Theo Capital Pierre Theo the PayPal guy he's our main just to add some authenticity to this for sure yeah no like I think having someone like that to A the money's important but B protection in a lot of ways too because you are disrupting an entire industry and anytime you're disrupting an industry people are going to come after you there's already a negative press about our stuff it's not just any industry either are you a little nervous a little scared at all but I don't know yeah that's like that's like hey take this guy who's scared of a cockroach that's who you are that's who you are you can be my bodyguard that's true you got the luck you got the you just need to get Shave your head that's good Jordan are you able to are you able to talk have you tried any of this are you able to talk about it I was supposed to get it for we got to do it for you you know we're we're ships passing in the night and whenever we see each other there's always an athlete in between us so now that I moved back to Toronto I had an area out of different I've been just having been proof of concept of my own principles of like out functioning the day like I don't have an ACL on my left knee I tore my right back I've separated both AC joints dislocated both shoulders torn labrums in both shoulders so but yeah I'll be the $6 million man now on the table one now that we're back in the same in the same town Wow Wow is it expensive it's $25,000 for one shot but if you think about it it's almost lasting two years and it for people who are into this stuff like they don't mind and my thing too with this stuff is it is a new technology right so think about plasma TVs and like 2003 or whatever they used to be like some of them were like $100,000 you know but they came down precipitously and same thing with like my you know my kind of like way to equate it is with like electric vehicle batteries like EV battery manufacturing was really expensive and really difficult in 2010 the Teslas weren't very good back then they didn't go very far the batteries were pretty crappy but people still bought that this is going to lead to a brighter future for society and that's my same principle with cell and gene therapy cell and gene therapy manufacturing the process is improving because there's bioreactors there's different ways that we can bring down the cost curves so instead of costing like even 10 years ago or even 5 years ago stem cells like IV stem cells were like $50,000 and now they're like $25,000 and like in another 5 years they'll be like $10,000 and the same thing with the gene therapy the manufacturing process will keep improving and people's scientists in me is like if this technology is out I think high level extreme cosmonaut athletes bodybuilders whatever are going to get their hands on this and go crazy I mean what do you think Jordan? Yeah, regulation is always tough the wanting is to cheat is always going to be higher than the wanting is to catch some cheating How do you test somebody's body that's naturally making I think the one thing you have to be comfortable with is at the highest level that people aren't getting tested and at a certain point there is a there's a maximum amount of recoverability that's useful before the actual skill of the athlete shines through so I think sports are as fair now as they're ever going to be on that front I see because more testosterone doesn't equal more they hit the limit and you know what in the sports that we love to watch they really and I think sports in general have gone down this trajectory of being more skill based and changing the rules fundamentally so that the skill can be expressed because that's what we like TSN top 10 is always going to be some high velocity transverse plane movement like a spin or a catch or whatever so it's you know what I think there's a lot to talk about in professional sports as they intersect with medicine like we talked earlier about the best team surgeons are going to be often seen as the best surgeons oh my kid goes to see the Miami Dolphins team surgeon it's like when you start to understand a little bit about every professional sports organization right now to my knowledge is actually operating illegally under federal med legal operation law so like you think of all the incentives for medicine in the Bay Area at a corporate level right Apple, Google, Facebook Pinterest they all have medical care incentive I was a chiropractor at Apple but my badge you know I had an Apple badge to get into the building but my employer was an Apple my employer was crossover health because it's illegal to protect them yes you have to do that but every single sports team is in violation there's actually a study done at Harvard called the Harvard football study and it talks a little bit about this but I think it's really going to start to make waves in the next couple of years by my estimation every pro sports league in the United States at the very least right now is under an incredible amount of is in an incredibly vulnerable position in the way they've structured their medical teams at the sports organization because none of them are protected I go and hire someone well that's illegal under the law that it says you're it's not it's not legal to incentivize medical care you're financially incentivizing medical care every team is liable right now there's there's a huge opportunity to restructure at the pro sports level it's intersection with medicine and I think you know what a deal is doing is going to be a massive part of that conversation because you know they're good you're going to need to have a governing body that's not owned by the leagues major league baseball NBA NFL NHL you have to Apple follow suit and understands the med legal that's why you have like crossover health or one or whatever runs Google but pro sports teams don't it's like it looks musculoskeletal injuries and Apple trust me I work there right it's nuts my wrist hurts it's like because you've been coding for 30 years right but you know I think part of that conversation will be because ultimately it's going to be good business like I think you're starting to see you know the athletes kind of in the tennis world like Novak Djokovic for example right Novak Djokovic is on top of his game for 20 years the guy wins 92% of matches that he plays that's insane right but you know a guy like Novak he has to go and build his team right where if you're a pro athlete coming up in North America and you're playing one of like the big four sports hockey baseball basketball or football you're under the assumption that the team has your best interest at heart they don't because it's about the bottom line you know for alignment right and that alignment is going to be aligning the best interest of the financial outcomes of the institutions with the best best interest of the health outcomes of the athlete right and I think this is going to be a big part 100% makes sense you know you mentioned something interesting to me so the evolution of sports and how they've used cutting edge technology kind of looks like this it was like what can we use to make us stronger bigger faster then it was like what can we use to recover faster he'll faster right now you mentioned skill acquisition that's the brain do you see the future of this kind of stuff or this kind of medicine or let's say advanced applications being more about like how can we get your brain to learn technique and skill faster how can we improve your perceptive ability how can we improve your ability to that's already helping with sports teams where are they doing that now the first to adopt the was the is it halo that was the the headgear they would practice together so they could measure like their what was going on in their brain where they were playing cognitive performance enhancers being like top silicon valley so and so uses whatever but athletes right is that a big space for athletes as well okay I'm going to try and say it's diplomatic because it deals here yes but it's not in the way that people think right brain training and watching pro athletes fucking tap little blue lights on a wall you know understanding the intersection of cellular physiology and neuroscience is where these conversations need to be had and when we start to look at common like brain training drills that are like I'm going to throw like a one of those tripod sticks at you and you need to catch the red it's like dog it's so far from what you're doing your sport it's not even that like novelty in exercise for athletes is I think a good thing right or variability in exercise right like you know I always talk about this principle the uncanny valley when it comes to sports and strength and conditioning so like the uncanny uncanny valley is like a term born out of robotics and I think it has like a really good carryover to sports and kind of like just indulge me for a second the uncanny valley explains human likeness to things that look like humans right human at all chimpanzee yeah with a human being itself right also being the holy grail of what we're after and then the y-axis would be well how much does it look like us right so you see this trend and like a lot of us kind of know this inherently if you ever watch like a creepy you know post apocalyptic sci-fi zombie movie or something like Disney it's like it has some anthropomorphized features to it but it's still a microwave on space whatever it is you're not going to mistaken it for being human right so that's like plots pretty low we're whatever about it but it doesn't look like us so that's like kind of in the corner of the y-axis but as we start to plot up and think about like minions holy fuck do people love minions like full grown adults lose their mind with these little yellow things wearing overall but then there's slightly more anthropomorphized simpsons or family guy we're like oh it's like or the real world but Marge has like three feet tall blue hair but then you get into like this weird valley of like looking a lot like humans so we've we've trended up right from Wally to Minions to Peter Griffin and then there's like this fucking just tanks and it tanks when things look too close to us but aren't us they look like you're scary that's the uncanny right and then you peak up oh my god like other human beings amazing it's like looking at those scary dolls made in the early 1900s where they tried to make them look like people but you're like that yeah freaky right exercises a lot like that right where it's like good good good and it looks too much like the thing we do on the field got it right so the idea that I'm going to you know I'm going to attach my cable my titleist to a carabiner and I'm going to start working on my my three wood in the gym it's like no physical properties of strength agility is this because it doesn't it doesn't translate enough to counter the fact that it's messing you up with the technique and skill of something that's too close to it yeah there's things that athleticism that can be trained in the gym and there's things that can't right athleticism has honestly athleticism has more to do with rhythm and timing sure than it does endurance intensity and velocity of course but endurance intensity physical properties that we can train in the gym but we don't want to mess up the rhythm the rhythm and timing and the sensory input component right of what we were doing so there's a strength of a deadlift but there's a technique and skill of a deadlift so you can improve your technique and skill and lift more weight and necessarily be have muscles that contract harder right yeah exactly so you're saying that makes me think that the the type of peptide or whatever we would come up with that actually like speeds up your ability to get into flow state something like that yeah is that would would be the good guess on what the direction you would want to go versus trying to yeah I mean right now the big doping issue in sports is the illegal or the banned substances around like this you know the advanced new tropics like if anyone's ever taken an Adderall or a midafinil like the pro sports or pro baseball at the very least there's said to be the three A's of the MLB alcohol, ambien and Adderall like that's the truth of it right so people are looking at like mushrooms I've heard that what's up microtrans oh sure yeah and there's neuro protective benefits things like that as well and the shrooms are I'm probably not the best qualified to talk about that but if you look at you know where people are really honing in their attention it's like anabolic anabolic anabolic androgenic steroids right it's not really it the games aren't built for that anymore the cognitive stuff is where we start to see like a lot of the cheating in the short it's asking yeah because with anabolic I think we've hit the peak we figured it out and we figured out which ones make you bigger which ones give you more neural drive which one give you whatever and then now they figured out the combination of the perfect amount for the size speed neural drive feel good whatever but now there are lots of I use them so I use certain peptides for cognitive performance and I notice significant improvements in my recall and my fluency in just how sharp I am intranasal insulin I say what? intranasal insulin no I'm using T-max that way but not insulin yeah no it's better than that so intranasal insulin has been used for dementia and malcognitive impairment is that because because a lot of people say it's like dementia and malcognitive impairment is type 3 diabetes because you get insulin resistance and neuro inflammation in the brain so intranasal insulin you can be used for optimization for cognitive enhancement it's pretty good and is that because it increases the protein in the brain exactly and the beauty part is it's not going to affect your blood sugar because it just goes down your digestive system if you put X-ray in or whatever what? it's just going up your nose right so wow it's super safe super safe and again because it's not patented you won't hear about it but it's actually an effective treatment for dementia and like it's crazy when I found out about that I was like and if you look on PubMed and like all the research around it it's just crazy and there's something simple like intranasal insulin can actually make a big difference and obviously we can combine that like we do with stem cell injections too into the brain like I have interventional radiologists in Dubai who does that with me so it's whoa whoa whoa you inject into the brain yeah he goes in directly there's actually a good trial that just came out recently for Parkinson's disease using those IPSC cells I was talking about and it's actually it's a phase one safety trial but it essentially so these cells can actually generate new neurons dopamine producing neurons so the people in the treatment groups actually have like sustained benefits and to treat their Parkinson's disease do you get dopamine side effects from something like that because I can get really sensitive to dopamine where I start to feel a little crazy and very impulsive well these are patients who basically aren't because they're they have Parkinson's they're not making you're not giving this to normal people no no no this is for Parkinson's specifically make my brain make Adderall disease so you mentioned Dubai a few times some of the most some of your biggest or customers got to be out there because they're on the cutting edge and they got money yeah no I got called to the the richest family in the world they're worth 3.2 trillion their palace and they're you know when you treat those type of people you get access and you get also it kind of you know gives you a different perspective too because it's like it doesn't matter how much money you have everyone has health issues and so if you could help them and the other thing for me was like because sometimes am I in the wrong here because why am I going against the narrative you know what I mean why am I going against the mainstream so I'm wondering am I wrong but then I'm like look at the people I'm working with so obviously it just it helps to reinforce that maybe I am on the right track because I feel like they want to seek me out if I was crazy well at least I don't think I would they would so I feel like I already know your answer but I'd like to ask anyway you mentioned was it Montana were they allow phase one okay so I have personal experience with this I had a family member who had terminal cancer years ago and I remember there were trials of drugs that could potentially help but we had to try to apply and maybe get it and I remember being so frustrated she's gonna die anyway you gave her four months she should be able to ask for heroin whatever she wants yeah she should be able to ask for molly, cocaine what the fuck she wants she's gonna die anyway and yet she can't because of these strange regulations don't you think a process like here's a coding system or a color system here are drugs that have been tested on animals use it at your own risk here's drugs that have been tested you know phase one phase two phase three these are the approved ones use at your own risk it's up to you don't you feel like that would be a much because right now it costs what a billion dollars to take a drug from conception to market which basically means if you can't patent it or you don't already have a prequel to it in other words another opiate or whatever like why would I even innovate why would I spend a billion dollars to try to invent something no the system here is designed to feed itself and that's why we have to go into these other jurisdictions where the regulation isn't like this it's called real world evidence does this does this shit work or not like that's basically what it comes down to and the analogy I always use is like like would you do a randomized control trial to see if parachutes work like do you want to be in the placebo group for that here's the control group he can't do all that cross fingers so you know it's just like sometimes you have to look at practicality and like peptides are a perfect example of that there's not a single human RCT on peptides yet you guys know firsthand they're using them like come on I'll tell you they're remarkable and so but if you go to your doctor if you go to a doctor still they'll be like oh there's no RCTs it's like bro like you have to look at real world evidence so I'll give you a great example of this so the US government recognize that more troops were committing suicide than were dying on the battlefield a while ago and so they funded they funded research into MDMA, ketamine psilocybin all of which psilocybin for example can't really patent it ketamine it's already been legal forever like but they funded it because they're like we gotta figure this out now the research is coming out right I'm doing ketamine therapy right now and it is remarkable how effective it is it's absolutely remarkable if you look at the research it could I mean it could treat treatment resistant depressions and really bad PTSD which has no efficacious treatment right now on the market but you don't make any money with it ketamine is cheap the amount of pharmacy makes it the money I spend is with the therapist yeah ketamine is cheap as fuck so I'm seeing this first hand well we combined that's why you know I had a patient in Canada they recently approved medically assisted dying I had this guy he's a special forces operative and he's he got medically discharged because he had really bad PTSD and so he they basically said he has like he has like four kids he failed like the traditional PTSD treatment so they're just like well I guess you can kill yourself like I was just like that's like that's messed up yeah exactly so I was like what can I do so I started digging into it a little bit from an interventional mental health perspective and so there's actually something called a stela ganglion injection where you actually inject into the stela ganglion which is around here and the vagus nerve and so the vagus nerve and stela ganglion both feed into your parasympathetic nervous system and so we actually can inject peptides and anesthetic into here and they actually recess your nervous system we call it the V shot and I'm working with the Canadian military to get it covered for the veterans and I've done it for many people it takes me five minutes to combine it with like psilocybin assisted therapy I was just going to say then they do therapy we combine it exactly we combine it that's the best what does it do just improve neuroplasticity or allow the rewiring of what's happening exactly rewiring yeah and the newer modulation of the nervous system because then they don't have the same response and triggers to every every little thing wow I've even I've treated young girls and got them off like you know anxiety meds panic attacks like it's been crazy more excitement or anger exactly that's how I felt like it's exciting at the same time it's like so it makes me so angry to know that you've got all these things that I just could literally change the game listen it's not everybody isn't talking about it it's an unfortunate side effect of the system that we have right we want really crazy regulations but because of the cost you have to recoup your investment if you can't patent it why the hell would I invest it so it's just part of the system so I don't blame it if it's going to be revamped and changed and it is angering I almost feel like I'm talking to the guy who said hey look I created an engine that runs off of water and then it disappears and if what you're saying is true are you worried how do you guys work together why do you guys travel together what's the deal with it yeah I mean we're like I said we're passing ships in the night and one thing I like even you know as he was kind of going over the the V shot and talking about the applications you notice he always mentioned like the intervention after, right? That we're following up with horse, right? And that's, and that's how we kind of, that's why I've been drawn to him over the years is, and him to me is, you know, these things are going to open up a window to allow you to change a habit or a lifestyle or motor pattern or something. So there's, it's a, it's a, it's a good, um, like it's a good synergy in the way we practice because, you know, he'll give me an opportunity, a window to change the mechanics of the way someone is, is moving or playing their sport, so that we can, you know, begin to underload chronically loaded tissues that tour and begin to, you know, disperse load across different tissues in a way that's going to be regenerated over time where long-term it was, or short, or sorry, in the past, it was just always going to be cortisone, cortisone, cortisone, right? Which had the catabolic effects. So, you know, we, we understand the limits of our scope. So if I have something complex where, you know, I can arrive to a conclusion pretty quickly now and just been doing this for a while of like, Hey, I know the injury. I know the sport. I know the intensity. I know the endurance. I know the velocity. I know the demands that you're going to need. And this tissue won't hold up to it. So you need to go fix the tissue. And then when we come back, then we actually, you know, then we start targeting for people listening. Is this a fair analogy, right? Cause I used to work with massage therapists and massage gives you an often, oftentimes immediate but temporary relief. Oh, we tightened up, we loosened up the tight muscles, your CNS is telling you to stay tight. They're loose. But if you don't train and retrain movement patterns or correctional exercise, you'll just go back to the massage therapist next week. So he's kind of doing that. Then you're going in. And then you're training them or moving them in ways that then solve the problem. Yeah. Yeah. If you zoom out enough, that's kind of the relationship for sure. Okay. But that's essentially and vice versa, right? You know, there's, there's some things and I'm very mindful of this, like in the stuff that we teach, like, you know, A, I think one of the biggest things that I think is worth talking about is you can't out corrective exercise, bad exercise, athletes move terribly in the gym. They, they are the shape and function of their sport because they do it the most. That's right. Right? So bridging the gap between corrective exercise and exercising correctly is like a big part of what we do. But also like on the flip side with him, it's a matter of like, I know that this tissue will be chronically loaded. I need to get him to repair that tissue so I can go back and start getting them to use other tissues. Right? So that's, that's sort of the give and take is, you know, he knows the limitations of his and I know the limitations of mine. I focus more on a constraints based model that focuses more on my limitations and the benefits because that's where I can capture. Like, that's where I can kind of know where, hey, I do where you got, I'm in Miami next week. Okay, I'll fly in with my guy and can you Java? Okay, but I got to leave the next day because I got to go to Mexico. It's like, okay, we got to leave the next day because we got to go to the Bahamas. Okay, so this day. Alright, we'll meet here. Okay, bring your radiologist and then we're sort of just passing ships in the night because it's, we both understand the limitations of what we do. Which means you guys can work together. Yeah, and that's, and I think a lot of people, you know, you get lost when you focus on the benefits because like you pump yourself up and you get these great results. But if you know where your limitations are, then you'll make better. Well, yeah, if you're a hammer, everything's a nail. But if you realize you only can work with nails, then that's what you're gonna. So I want to ask you something. How do you know working with high level athletes, Jordan, how do you know when to correct a movement pattern issue? Or this is beneficial for their sport. I'm not gonna fuck with this because if I do, it's gonna mess up their technique or the whatever. Yeah, I mean, there's like a simple framework to follow. We talked earlier about like the stimuli of endurance, intensity and velocity and then into like rhythm and timing and more athletic and ever. So seeing how a tissue tolerates those like, hey, can you hold this position for a long enough period of time? No, okay, that's gonna be a big problem, right? You know, you play 162 games in the major leagues or you play a 17 week schedule or, you know, you're a fucking tennis player and you play for five hours in a grand slam and your best of five sets, like understanding the progression of stimuli from endurance intensity, velocity, rhythm and timing and then being like, can the tissue tolerate that? So titrating down to like each individual stimulus at that level of tissue and being like, hey, yeah, you can tolerate this. Is it is it load intensive or is it is it load dependent, right? Is the is the issue load dependent? No. Okay, let's try a lot. Okay, it hurts when you're out of velocity. What velocity? Can we come down and start to work at submaximal velocities of a stimulus and start to build the threshold there? Right? So that's like one, one offshoot of progression that we look at. The second is planes of motion, right? So frontal or sagittal frontal and transverse in that order, our body gets more complex as we organize movements through each of those planes in order. So sagittal is very basic, right? Front and back flexion extension. We're kind of we're that's our that's our reptilian. Well, that's our default. That's our safe mode. And most people will default back to that. Like we talked about TSN sports top 10 list. You'll never see high endurance sagittal plane in the top 10. It's boring, right? That's why powerlifting is never on the top 10. It's slow and it's sagittal plane, right? Yeah. Right. Where what are the most exciting things? High velocity, well timed, like the dunk contest to me. And like, I know you're a ball fan, but what are we doing here? Yeah, we're just trying to spin more. That's all it was. Tony Hawk pro skatership. The white dude just jumped up and did a 900 or whatever. And then that was it. Why? Because it's high velocity transverse plane motion. That's interesting when you unpack it like that. Yeah. So it can naturally drawn to that. Oh, yeah. Even if you're not an even if you're not an athlete or even appreciate sports, like maybe someone like Sal, you still subconsciously appreciate that because there's something in their brain that tells us that's that's our super different muscles are second most abundant sense sensory organ in the body. And I think we don't appreciate that coming out of the resistance training world because we train them for motor output and not sensory input. Like if we close our eyes right now, what's going to tell us where we are? You know, we have subcutaneous mechanical receptors, there's four major ones, refining ending, refining endings and Merkel's disinvisors, corpuscles and Pasinian endings. And those manage like vibration and deep pressure and light touch and skin stretch and all that shit. Right. But the real money when it comes to the way we map our brain internally and this kind of leads back into the conversation we had about how can you improve the cognitive function of an athlete? It's like the answer is in the muscle. Right. The muscles that conduit into the nervous system, there's 50,000 muscle spindles in the muscles in your body, which makes it the second most abundant sensory organ in our body. The first obviously is our eyes. Right. It's like how we map, how humans map. Right. A dog would map his environment factory right with nose. Yeah. Smelling. So with us, it's eyes, but the second those go out, it's muscles that are telling us what to do. Right. That's why we love TSN, the top 10, the number one thing is always the no look or the eyes close. Right. Like, or he's, you know, like, oh, shit, he's looking it up and he's like looking at you in the eyes when he does it. It's like, well, that's a sign of mastery because we can get into like cerebellar function maybe in another time. But when if we knock out our main system, our second system there to tell us where we are in space, other than like the motor patterns that we've suggested and stuff's probably made that shot 10,000 times in his life, it's the muscles in real time that are telling us like kind of this internal motion capture system where we are in space. Right. So you know, we talk about sagittal playing being the most calm or most basic frontal, slightly more complex and sagittal or sorry, transverse being the most complex. So now we have two, two progressions. And then we look at movement, right? And when we're dealing with an injury, there's always the ability to move passively, active assisted, active and active resistant. So we kind of take these three filters and we kind of kaleidoscope them together and see, given the, you know, the known biomechanics of the joint or tissue that's injured, where are we at? Like where what's our starting point? Like it's passive, it's painful and passive sagittal playing motion. Okay, that's dude, I'm looking at him right away. I got a guy that I can't lift his leg off the table without him screaming. He can hold it. Because you're at the beginning, you're at the first level of both of those. Right. They're colliding like this is way, yeah. So there's a lot of who exist in the middle ground and that's really just a gap analysis and experience comes interesting. Right. And then it gets into more finite things of like, you know, what type of what type of athlete is this guy in the sport? Right. Like what how what type of game does he play? Right. You know, this is where you're talking about the limitations. Sure. Oh, I see. Using that filter. Can someone like you, like the other day, I tagged you and like three of our other friends. By the way, it was so weird to see me on that. I mean, you guys are, you guys are the most brilliant people in the sports performance role in my opinion that I've ever seen or spoken to. Can you use that filter and and and see like, let's say some other trainer that's not on that list posts, like working with an athlete, and you automatically can go like this fucker doesn't know what he's doing. Just is it that can you do that? I mean, yeah, but it's tough. Like in the sports world, the longer you do it, the more you realize that optimal is 51%, not 100 house always wins. That's what you're aiming for. Randomness is great. Novelty is great, but we just need specific novelty, right? We need specific variability outside of the planes motion. Look, some people pick it up with their eyes closed, right? The blind squirrel can find a nut every now and then. And I've been around long enough to know and kind of to a deals point earlier like, there's a mutable principles of movement and exercise that are going to be ever present regardless of your dogma or ethos or education, what you think we know about training. Because right now, and we talked earlier about my friend, his name is Andy O'Brien, he's Sidney Crosby strength coach, probably one of the most brilliant guys that I know. And he's like, we maybe know 5% of what there is to know right now, right? So like, you do this enough times and like, you know, it's frustrating from people don't have a system because we're trying to beat randomness and that's not a novel. That's not a novel feat. Randomness is a dangerous opponent, right? And we can get what makes it dangerous is because you can get results with almost anything. It pulls you. It does. Yeah. So like, for me, I'm aiming for 51%. Like we talked about Novak Djokovic, I got pulled into the tennis world in the last year. You know, Novak Djokovic wins 92% of matches that he plays, which is nuts. You know, he's up until this year, he's won the last eight Wimbledon's and he's won, I don't know, 20, 30 plus slams over his 20 year career. But you know how many points he wins on average? 56%. The best tennis player in the world only wins 56%. Right. So when I watch a code and look, there was a time consistent 56, but yeah, yeah, but the house always wins. Right. Right. So my job is to be the house, right? When I make decisions around code, like whether it's managing or co-managing an athlete or the decision to co-manage an athlete, I'm aiming for a result slightly better than random, which is going to be 50%. You're working with very high performance, high functioning, like 0.1% of the 1% of people when you're talking about that. When you're talking about the average person who comes in like, oh, my back hurts, it's more than 51%. Oh, um, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, okay, you got to strengthen your abs or something like that. Right. And that's where people kind of because that's how we all start, right? And I think that that's where randomness gets really scary because it gives you a false sense of confidence. Well, yeah, you get somebody just generally stronger and like, oh, this fixed their back pain or knee pain. And that's it. Like, I mean, I coach that that teacher with us, Kyle Baxter, he's kind of like coined this phrase of people being weaker than the forces of gravity acting on them. And then we can get into a center of mass conversation and what that really means an application of exercise prescription. But like, I look at like a chessboard and a checkerboard, it's the same fucking board there's white squares and there's black squares. But what's different are the pieces. The pieces mean something different depending on what game you're playing with general population, people you're playing fucking checkers, just make little jumps, get them stronger, put them on a leg because I don't give a shit. Yeah, you don't need to reinvent. Yeah, relative strength, the body weight ratio, huge. But when you get to the other side of the board and you've you've done your time and you've cut your teeth on the gym floor. And then, you know, maybe a kid you train was talented and made it to a college level or or, you know, maybe someone you train someone and know someone and you get a shot at an athlete. It's like, you got to understand that you're playing a different game. You're on a different board, right? Now you got to the horse moves in the L thing. I'm good at biomechanics, but I don't actually know what the fuck I'm talking about. It comes to the chess reference. The horse moves in the L and like the thing that looks like a bowling pin goes on the diagonal. Yeah, sure. Whatever, I don't have a TV. But so that's that's like the main difference, right? And really what that comes down to is load management, right? It just comes down to a system of load management. That's all it is. If I were to distill it down to like what biomechanics is, it's load management. But load management is still a problem even in an elite level, as we've seen some of the trainers are Muppets as Jordan likes to call them. Well, I mean, we see the shout out. That's what I was seeking for. I wanted him to point out like I could see someone doing something and then there's like a red flag. There's got to be red flags. Oh, sure. And there's recent the high level of flags on either side, right? Like, fuck, man, like there's there's there's modalities and I don't want to get sued. But there's modalities like, you know, transcutaneous neuromuscular electrical stimulation devices are still rampant in the sports world. All you're doing is you're going to nerf an athlete that needs to be really strong, right? If I have a fucking, you know, some doped up the tens unit on my quad, what I don't have is 500 pounds on the bar, right? And there's going to be a time where load management requires because load management is a double-edged sword, right? And we don't realize that, you know, we understand that overshooting load, you know, from a training perspective, like probably around the 15% mark, like if we came in today, like I'm feeling pretty good, I found some old Jaxie Jack 3D in the cupboard, like kind of grip and rib and you go for a PR that's over 15% of a training stimulus that you're used to in the last like 30 days and you got hurt. Yeah, no shit, like you YOLO PR date on some one three die math and you fucked up your back like, yeah, shit happens. But the opposite is also true. Underloading under a 15% relative stimulus to what you're used to also leads to an increased risk of injury. Wow. Right. So it's like a fine line. Exactly. Load management is a fine line. And I think, you know, when we get into the sports world, one of the biggest one of the biggest principles if we understand that, OK, biomechanics is load management, right? And you need to equate in like Corey's done something remarkable. I don't think many people really appreciate Corey Schlesinger. You have to say friend of the show, huge beauty award. He's done something interesting. He's actually just taken a job at Texas. So he's gone from and Corey, hopefully, I'm not like out in your news here, but we went from taking a strength coach role at the Phoenix Suns to taking an assistant coach role and performance director. Wow. So that's like that's some innovative shit because now you can actually tolerate where load comes from from both ends, right? Because it's like as a strength coach, conventionally at the collegiate or pro level, you're always playing catch-up. We're always playing reactive. Like an angry coach puts a garbage can in the middle of the court and runs kids until they puke. It's like, fuck. Right. Everything you had. Usually the only ones I knew managing that. What's that? He was one of the only coaches. Yeah. I remember when we first managed, first introduced us to him and he broke that down. It was one of the things I think we were all blown away by like he was the first coach that I ever heard that would adjust his training based off of what the other coaches were doing to their athletes. First is like this is my program. This is what we do all the time, which is what you hear from any other coach, trainer. And it's so load management becomes really difficult. And we're, you know, the more the more control you have over variables, the better data you have, the more you can do this. Like, you know, we'll monitor guys in season. And, you know, if a guy finds some open field and playing against a weak defense and he can hit 20 plus miles an hour that week, I don't need to touch them at high percent. But if he gets shut down and like the offense isn't on the field for much of the game, I can tell, oh, hey, man, you only max, you know, you got a few strides you've ran for 10 yards. I need you to run something over 90 percent this week. So, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday, I need to see something above 90 percent, which for you is going to be like 18, 19 miles per hour. So we can we can stoke that stimulus throughout the season and get them faster over their career. So would you so would you say that's like what makes the the art or the beauty of what you do is being able to be right on the closest to that line you can be. Yeah. And the thing is like a lot of it comes down with your your tolerance for risk. Right. You need to be able to accept the consequence. The shit goes wrong. Right. And like that's where a lot of trainers will just look at the program and then stick to the program because if you stick to the program, you blame the program. Right. So you have to have, you know, a certain ability to tolerate risk and it's tough when athletes are getting, you know, athletes are worth nine figures on a consistent basis athletes you work with. Like, you know, they'll make a hundred million dollars plus in their career and you need to be comfortable with your experience and the tools that you have to make the decisions. Like it really comes down to awareness over time is what builds instincts. Right. So if you're aware over time, you can start to recognize patterns. Like, you know, you learn so much subconsciously that gives you the inclination that you need to listen to, but only if you're aware. Right. You need to know what you're looking to looking at in your conscious foreground to allow your subconscious background to start picking up and collecting information. Is there any tech that you like or appreciate? I mean, I look at the big data, man. Like if you really want to look at athlete longevity, muscle mass and overall body weight to skeletal mass ratio is probably one of the most undervalued metrics that you could track. Just straight tracking body fat percentage? Well, tracking body fat. So a friend of mine, Chris, well, a friend of ours, Chris McClellan and Aaron Wellman have have a way, a system of with a decent amount of accuracy, actually measuring the weight of someone's axial skeletal or an appendicular skeleton. So the bones, how much your bones, right? They break it down, which is wild. And, you know, I think one of the most honest scientific efforts I've seen, they actually break it down by race. And they've been able to collect a tremendous amount of data across, you know, a multiplicity of professional sports. And they can say, look, based off of your race, you should carry this many kilograms per kilogram of bone to muscle, right? Like that's run in lean is going to be and look, lean doesn't necessarily mean low body fat percent. It means your muscle mass to skeletal mass ratio. So one of that's like one of the biggest predictive factors. So I think a lot of the too much muscle, too little skeletal mass, higher rate of injury, higher rate of injury, too much weight to, right? And so you can break those things down. And also on the flip side, right? The too little muscle to bone. So it is about optimizing for some of these like really obvious low hanging fruit. And that's probably one of the biggest ones that will track then then performance metrics, right? Performance is a proxy by which we make decisions. And I think a lot of people look, I don't want to say too heavily at the data, but you know, there's a subjective interpretation that correlates. And that's how you really understand the difference between being tired and being fatigued, right? We can all attest that our best training days will probably come on the days where we felt the worst, right? As a power lifter, and I'll put that on the fringe of the sidelines of conventional sports. When I go in, you know, Mike, you know, Dan Green, my coach just up the road, I would deadlift after a long day of, you know, working and I would feel slow, but objectively move fast. And what he would say is like, put more weight on the bar, right? So you need to know how to be data informed, not data driven. So there is some, you know, hard line metrics that we look at. But those metrics are just tracking performance and more so on the field of play, because that's the objective measure we're looking to improve. So do you find those like the most popular tools out there like irrelevant? Then when you're like, did you literally strap up? I think this stuff is important because a longevity field. There's a particular doctor who talks a lot about this stuff and me and Jordan, you know, our text threads are hilarious. We just blame so many people. No, but because we're unique because we have, we understand we're both gym rats, too. We've lived and we understand like the longevity aspect of muscle and how to optimize that. But there's a lot of people out there who are getting attention who are just talking about really outdated stuff. And like, I think what he's talking about from the sensory perspective is so important, but also like muscle being an organ of longevity is kind of like, like, like the concept now, right? I think everyone understands that. But it's like, how do you actually, how do you actually frame it away where you're doing it for longevity? How do you actually structure your training? So I think that's the insight that we have that a lot of people don't. And the guys who are out there talking the loudest aren't necessarily, you know, putting out the best information. Well, that's a delicate balance also, right? We talked about that, the triangle, right? If you're moving, you start to move towards too much muscle, you move away from longevity. If you go too far towards the aesthetics for the average person, the average person, like, so there is that fine dance with that. Also, when you try my pro bodybuilders will be an extreme, which also, I think back back to the beginning topic about steroids. That's why that's why just taking more steroids and more muscle isn't necessarily ideal at all for athletes, which is why I think we've reached that kind of. Yeah. I mean, thank I look baseball to me. I'm not a baseball guy, but fuck was it ever exciting when like Roger Clements had a 20 inch neck, right? He's a part of Congress like he's coming up the worst excuses ever. But you know, it was a side show. It became a side show and it didn't actually help the sport. Now it's like when you let the skill shine through sports, that's where and sports that are more skill heavy are really starting to come up like, you know, tennis is now the fifth most popular sport in the world. Look what Messi has done for soccer in the United States, right? You see the skill of this guy and you're like, well, fuck. No wonder we didn't like soccer compared to European players. We're watching a bunch of plumbers go out and play soccer, right? He's nuts. He's not even fair at some point, but this is like if we look at most conventional people who, you know, have a ton of muscle mass and we kind of put them through this filter of like, well, do they move well, active, resisted in the transverse plane and high velocities with any sort of rhythm and timing? No, right? They're frontal plane monsters. I mean, they're sagittal plane monsters like you watch a bodybuilder try and run. He waddles. What's waddling? It's global A, B, and A deduction. Well, what is that? It's frontal plane movement. Why? Because they don't have any sort of local or global access to the transverse plane, right? That's not, it's funny as hell to watch like bodybuilder run until he tears a hamstring. But, you know, we like performance. Why? Because the performance is entertaining and we're just gluttonous for entertainment, right? So and I think this is where like the alignment, a lot of these topics are going to come from like, you know, if things, these things have to start at the top, the big screen TV that sat in the corner of the rich kids living room that took up 30% of it that cost $10,000, we needed that rich kids dad to buy that TV. So I can hang a plasma on my office wall for 300 bucks. Right. And that's kind of where we're at. And I think there is there is an alignment coming together from all the different interests, right? I think mainstream medicine is at the very least, they're catching on to the muscle as a longevity organ. It's finally starting to happen. There were almost no studies 20 years ago on longevity and strength. And now you're starting to see a lot of that. Yeah, that's good. And but the best studies out there are like grip strength, like, you know, that's just a proxy. Exactly. It's a proxy. But like, imagine if you actually measured like, like force in your lower body extremity, because that's where a lot of your muscle, your glute muscles. So there's actually data out there is called myostatosis, which is how much fatty infiltration gets into the into the glute or into the rec fed. Yeah, Dr. Dr. Gabriel Lyon was talking about like they can actually look at muscle and see if it's quality muscle versus like, yeah, you got lean body mass here, but there's a lot of fat. Yeah, exactly. So myostatosis is actually a predictor of mortality and people in COVID that they looked at it too. So patients who had more myostatosis in their glute and the rec fam area were had poor outcomes. So and that so it just shows us that like having muscle in the right places and not having that fatty infiltration is so important and protective for systemic disease. But then there's like, like the whole aspect of like injury prevention stability and all the other stuff that isn't like it's talked about, but not maybe about like the right people and all that stuff that while you have insulin sensitivity, androgen receptor density of the ability to store glycogen. Well, yeah, there's something now we know because it comes back to like, you know, the exosome stuff we were talking about earlier. Now we can measure that from the muscle to there's something called exocellular vesicles, which are exorkeins and myokines that get released from the muscle. And so these myokines are basically cytokines that are proteins are signals that get sent and they bypass the blood brain barrier. So they reduce neuro inflammation, they help prevent against dementia. So now we understand at a cellular level, how is muscle actually protecting your body? So you're saying that muscle also is a major part of the immune system? Exactly. Because of the myokines and exorkeins which are only released in response to the stimulus of certain exercise. Yeah, you know, it's interesting, I read this study on an extreme form of athlete when it comes to muscle building, pro bodybuilders, not the healthiest. Okay, obviously they do a lot of shit that will kill most people. And yet their rate of cancer, their death rate of cancer was lower than the average person. Just just to highlight the protective benefits of muscle, it even countered all the shit that they do their bodies that's totally unhealthy. Well, you're not even unhealthy in a lot of cases, like if you got guys that are running a drug called Increlix, you are literally going in with something. So Increlix is like the pharmaceutical name for IGF one, right? So not only is it non healthy, the ability for exercise to put out the fire while the arson is still lighting the fire is pretty amazing. Right. And I think something that like a principle that we've seen or a theme that we've seen. And I think we'll continue to see as we move forward and we continue to innovate on like the regenerative side or the exercise is moving towards principle based interventions. Research is too slow. Yeah. Right. Like everything that like we've used research, the research proves that you can know how to read. That's it. That's all it does. So every single, you know, you scroll through your gram and, you know, I have friends that do it, colleagues that do it and like I get it, you know, the algorithm, whatever. There's some yellow bullshit text over so a new study shows. Yeah. Yeah. Principles. Right. We there are immutable first principles that we need to get back to people don't read enough textbooks they read too much fucking research and they just sway and their experience is holds no value because there's nothing that they're tested. There's nothing at the core of it. Right. There's the trade wins of research. And then look, we can talk about, you know, there's no bad people. There's just bad incentives. And, you know, that is true, I think in the research world. But I think for too long we use research to prove things wrong rather than looking at principles to figure out why things were right. And I think that's the big that's the big shift that we're seeing now in people who are innovating in the space is they're taking a look at people who are espousing research, the research that's available to us. And, you know, then you have to sift through what of that is of high enough quality to be applicable. Yeah. And then, you know, those people are being outperformed. Right. And that's why high net worth individuals and athletes are really nice proving ground because, you know, the proof of the money and the proof is in the scoreboard. Yeah. Right. It brings objectivity back into the world. So yes, they're buying the big screen TVs, but they're the ones showing the results. So I think like, you know, I think research is great. But I always think, you know, I came up under the sort of the influence of Charles Pollack when like, and he was doing cluster training 25 years before they proved the efficacy. That's right. If you were to wait, he never would have done that. Right. But he understands the principles of muscular physiology. He understands, you know, nervous system adaptation. So from a principal's perspective, it could work. Right. And I think principles are the core of what informs better research to be done in the first place. I think we put research too much up on a pedestal in an evidence-based model. And, you know, looking at a clinician's understanding of principles, the client and patient values is another arm of evidence that I don't think people look at. And we're conflating evidence-based with research-based. A lot of people are like, I'm evidence-based. And it's like, you know, you talk about the parachute thing. Like I've been in conferences where people will push me on this. It's like, are there squirrels in this room right now? No. Do squirrels exist? Yes. So you might not see the results in the confined, confined, sanitized space of a study with a, you know, like, nothing makes me laugh like an eight-week high perturby study. Some assholes, but I've been doing this for ages. It's like the biggest pet peeve for us. Right? But if you can, if you can understand the principles of amino acids, if you can understand the mTOR process, you can probably make some really informed decision that over the course of someone's life, we'll guide them. And that's the problem with the whole anti-aging industry and all these all these kind of geek doctors who aren't actually in the real world doing the application. Because they don't understand the fundamental principles. So in physics, they call it first principles. And now in biology, we understand the fundamental principles or hallmarks of aging. There's 10 hallmarks. There's like chronic inflammation, myocondrous function, loss of proteostasis. There's all these lists. And then basically, but those 10 fundamental principles govern almost every chronic disease. So if you can understand how those fundamental principles happen and how to alter those, and you can treat so many different diseases. At the very least, you have a very, very good direction. And you have a framework to work with. Right. And that's why these anti-aging, the problem with the community is they're just doing exactly what he said. These are like the guys that go on TikTok and they're like, don't stimulate mTOR. Makes me get cancer. And that's why it's boomers, man. It's boomers. Yeah, man. Frig. I don't want to, I guess I don't want to talk dames in the front, but, you know, but like, even like the Harvard Sciences guy, David Sinclair, like he talks about intermittent, like he talks about all that stuff. Right. But then he's like, you're talking about mTOR, but then it's like, but yes, working out and protein stimulates mTOR. But you need protein because anti-catabolic and it'll protect you from muscle loss and sarcopenia. What's more important? What's the principle of aging? The number one principle of aging is muscle and keeping that, preserving that muscle. That's why the fall of statin is such a big deal because it inhibits myostatin and it's anti-catabolic. Right. But the, and so these guys are getting their order mixed up, their order of like sequence. Right. And then they're putting other things in front of the most more important. I'm going to back you up. Maybe without the big bathwater. I'm going to back you up. So we, there was this, there was some studies that Dr. Gabriel Lyon brought up on testosterone replacement therapy in prostate cancer. Now we thought prostate cancer driven by androgens cut out testosterone that'll improve survivability. Now the data is showing no, actually better outcomes by maintaining normal testosterone levels. That would be a principle. Low testosterone, unhealthy. Normal testosterone, healthy. And I said that I've, I've been saying that 10, all this stuff even Peter talks about like I've been saying that stuff for like 10 years because it's, because it's from the fitness industry. It's like easy to understand that if you have more testosterone, you have more energy, you have more better mood, you have better metabolic function processes and you're going to exercise more. If you're going to exercise more, then your health is going to improve. Your metabolic health improves, your cardiovascular reduction goes down. But research is only, it's a, it's a, the problem is research is only meant to look at the outcome of one variable. That's right. Right. And we're so multivariate in our systems, like longevity is, you know, it's do boomers are losing. It's funny to see the shift, actually, like, because you guys, when I first, you know, met you guys and Craig was still here with this fucking long hair. You know, you were too wild and out for him. Like your, your, your enemy at the gate was, you know, the, the overhyped shreds, bad information. And it's like, we've turned the industry like over to the adults all of a sudden. Like it's been a weird shift. Like the focus of you guys, you guys are now, you know, you stayed sort of centered in your principles and have been able to look at the industry, kind of do this pendulum swing. It's like, why are we listening to all these old people? You want to talk about longevity with old people. Make sure grandma doesn't fall over. That's a low hang, right? 100%. Dude, you, that's a number one cause of death. Fall and break your hip. And where does that come in? Well, why? Because their muscles are not not only not being used from, you know, like a motor output standpoint, like getting up out of a chair unassisted is one of the leading predictors of all cause mortality. But if we start to look at muscle from a sensory from a principal perspective, it's like, Hey, we can build like we can go through a process of like neural polishing or neural sharpening with a muscle spindle and we can actually change how a muscle contract not from like an, an efferent, then efferent in so motor out sensory in we can actually have a sensory, we can initiate a muscle contraction with a sensory input, which is what stability is. It's, you know, it's a, it's it's a gamma motor neuron loop between a muscle spindle and its respect of respect to a chord level. Right. So if I have someone who I'm training who is elderly and I get them to stand on one leg and they're all it's like they don't know their, their hip hasn't been trained. I could put a band on her knee and strengthen the motor output, but I need the sensory input, right? And that's where like, you know, we can sit and talk about these funny supplements that are, you know, that increase all of these things in your blood lab. Or I can look at someone and be like, she can't stand on one leg. She, she has four stairs to get into apartment, right? I'm going to have to stop buying grandma Christmas gifts in a few years because if she eats shit, she's, you know, the statistic I think on a broken hip and broken ribs are similar over the age of 65 that 50% of people are going to die within a year. Yep. And we're having conversations about supplements in the Amazon. What are we doing? Well, that's exactly, come back to the principles, right? And that's why I mean, I mean, not to promote the fall of static, but it does increase bone density. And that's what our trial showed as well. It increases lean body mass, has body recomposition effects. So it helps you to lose fat, increase lean body mass and increases bone density. That's why we're doing our phase two trial in Japan because they have the ages to hold this aging population for doing it for sarcopenia and osteopenia. And so that's the reason it, but the vision with the technology is that we wanted to have access to every basically old person on the planet because there's no harm and there's so much benefit for it. I'm going to ask you a question at the risk of pissing off Jordan. But we're going to take just a little detour to supplements. Is creating the ultimate longevity supplement that's available over the counter? Largely, would you say? In my opinion, whey protein and Crea Pure and maybe HMB are the top three. The top three. Yeah, I would say so. Yes. And again, where did they come from? The bodybuilding world, right? That's where that's where we come from. HMB for people who don't know. It's a metabolite elucine, right? Exactly. Yeah. Anticatabolic, three grams a day. Hugely. They put that in some nursing homes now. Exactly. They should be for every ICU patient. They should get that too. But like again, like the hospital systems don't don't look at this stuff. But because it's so important there's been studies done on that and how ICU patients one week in the ICU bed, you lose like ridiculous amounts. I can't remember the exact percentage, but it's a lot. And to gain it back takes a lot of time. So if you can do anything that's anti-catabolic, it's going to be hugely impactful on their clinical health. Now, for someone eating a ton of protein eating a gram of protein per pound of body weight, you don't HMB, weight protein, waste of time, right? Creatine's still good though. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Creopure is you can't go wrong with that. And I mean, I think there's a lot of talk about tort, but again, they made headlines, Torine. But like it just like it was like an animal male study. And then they're like everyone's talking about Torine as a best anti-aging supplement. And like that's the problem with this community. They're just trying to like anything like any research headline, they're just promuling the shit out of it when the foundation is the foundation. It's not going to change, but it's not sexy and you can't keep making headlines off that. I love what you, Jordan said about the principle, sticking to the principles. I want to go back to what you said about what you hate because we went over it real quick. And to me, it's we love it. We hate a lot of things. Well, this is this is for sure that one of my biggest pet peeves, the thing that we probably have to talk about more than anything else because it is always some tick-tock fucking trainer that's posting some new hypertrophy, eight week study about how this is the best thing for this. This is the rep range. This is the temple. And so we're always having because it doesn't align with maybe something that we present. It's like you guys are fucking stupid if you think that this is how it works. Like take that study out for a year and then tell me how well it's working for you. And then I can show you something else that's completely opposite of that and it'll work just as well. So explain that for us, for our audience, because it is something that we're always eight week hypertrophy studies are done. Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, just the one thing is looking at exercise for hypertrophy in itself is done. Well, like, you know, I think at a certain point you need to understand the nutritional subcomponents that drive muscle hypertrophy. Right. And like the thing that we're actually looking for is a building of tissues. Like you're going to need available resources. So the very premise of like an exercise, like I think there's the immutable principles of muscle hypertrophy are probably going to be length and load. Yeah. Right. Now length and load. Then we can dive a little bit more into like resistance profiles and strength curves. But I think understanding like performance is just such like a loosely understood term. Like, you know, a friend of mine and coach with us at Prescript, one of our educators, Kelly and Hamilton has this idea of a runway of progression, right? Like how long is a runway of a progression of an exercise? Because there are exercises where like, you know, if I have a bilateral bent over dumbbell row, right? That that will top out at a certain point or comparing a squat to a bicep curl. Right. Yeah. There's completely different. The whole adaptation process, the learning curve, everything, which if you take an eight week study on those two things that you can't. Right. You can't compare them. And it's just the idea is we need progressive. And I think one of the nomenclature slits of hand that have sent people awry over the years is the idea of progressive overload. No, like, I don't want to, like, you know, piss anyone off. But the idea is we need progressive over stimulus. And I think there's a difference between progressive or progressive over stimulus. I'm going to steal that. OK, great. Yeah, go ahead. Make sure you do it with the walking thing, too. I'm mad. Is it my at this camera? I'm mad. Who loves walking? Well, whatever. I'll sell it. Don't worry. So the idea of progressive over stimulus, it trumps the idea of progressive overload because it also incorporates progressive over. That's right. Right. So progressive over stimulus is my preferred on the Lella term for what we need. Now, there are exercises that become impossible to not impossible, but become inefficient to continually over-stimulate, right? So that's why bodybuilders classically and they they've I mean, they might not have landed on this principle, but they are bodybuilders of this principle. Like you've ever trained with a bodybuilder. I'm sure you all have. You obviously in your career have probably done some really dumb shit, right? Like how many times have you just like, you know, run the rack on a dumbbell lateral? Yeah. Excuse me. Pardon me. You're just flapping your wings all the way down into the women's section. Do you have pink dumbbells in your hand? And it's like, well, you know, it becomes difficult with bodybuilders. And the reason they're always coming up with more creative stuff is like, you know, imagine you went out and did a recreational drug and your first drug was heroin. It's like, well, where do you go from there? Right? Now, it's so that's kind of the thing when you're dealing with clientele is like, you need to understand their baseline recoverability at the stimulus level that they can tolerate now. That's right. Right. And then some people like, you know, I had trained with a bodybuilder in Dubai when I was living there in every single exercise on legs. Was a top set, 12th the failure. The next set was a rest pause set at the same weight. The next set was a single drop set and the next set was a double drop set. Did you do this workout too? Dude, nuts. Yeah, I did. I did. It was Jamie. His name is Jamie Derigo. Did you throw up? Oh, dude, you're just like, well, because it's hard when you know this stuff and you're like, dude, I'm like, you're crushed. And it's it's to the point. Now, if you understand the physiology and you understand, like, you know, in that world, the enhanced physiology and you can look at this and don't look at it from a research thing. Look at it from a principles base. Like, what is this guy's free to saustral levels? What is this guy's lifestyle? Like, Derigo's got two dogs back in his villa and he's going to take his and he's going to like wake up. He's going to graze to the fridge. He's going to graze his big ass back to the couch through a couple of client check-ins and then he's going to go to bed. Right. So it's like, it's so easy to look at, like, well, you know, this level of training volume. It's like, yeah, but look, everyone tries to play his own where in this world, you got to play the man. Right. Like, you got to take a look at the person. And like, you know, that's why I think biomechanics is a vehicle of or exercise as a selection as a vehicle of biomechanics is so important because the idea of an underwriting stimulus of an exercise is like what people need to understand the most. Right. Like, does your body know the difference between a squat and a leg press? Depends on how good you are at each of those two things, right? If you're if you can manage at high volumes, that demand of muscular co-contraction, then sure, maybe the squats going to have some ancillary benefits. If you can't, and that can be transient. I've had clients who come in, like, you know, when I worked down the road at Stanford, one of my clients was a cardiothoracic surgeon. They work kind of like firemen. So there's dude, Paul, hi, Paul. He's not listening to us. Maybe he is. Fuck God. The people that are listening to this show, Jesus. He would spend like four days in Napa with his dog and then he would come back and be on call at the ICU cardiothoracic trauma surgery for like two days straight. So I'd see him after like 17 hour surgery, right? He's scrubbed in shitting in diapers, replacing lungs, replacing spleens, all this stuff. And then he would come into the gym. Well, post Napa, Paul can do a squat with technical proficiency to something that is probably in a proximity of, you know, muscular failure at a local level at the addoctor's quadriclutes, right? But you get Paul after a 17 hour surgery, it's like we're in a leg extension, maybe some leg press, right? But the stimulus is the same. So we're still able in a program to progressively over stimulate those muscles. You can still make tons of progress. Yeah, context matters. Well, auto regulation and a lot of people don't know how to auto regulate. But here's what I want. I want the death of the saying in the personal training industry. We are just gonna go light today needs to die, right? And because we're always gonna go heavy, but we're gonna constrain the loadability by the exercise selection and that's the fundamental principle. It's appropriate intensive is what it is. Yeah, and we modulate not by changing load, but by changing the loadability of the movement, changing the exercise. And if we understand the fundamental stimulus that we're driving, we can always progressively overstimulate. You're like a philosopher sometimes. I do, I can. I spend a lot of time with myself. You know that we always have to do a follow-up episode to like translate everything. Oh yeah? Sick. Yeah, your podcast is always two podcasts. We do the podcast with you and then we do another episode with the translator. You're gonna need to interpret it later. We're gonna break down the subtitles. I'm gonna go apply it first. Work out appropriately. Your certification has done phenomenal things. People comment on it. They talk about how amazing it is. I can see why. I mean, you really put everything you have into it and you've just constantly learned and grow and this is pretty amazing stuff. You must be attracting people from all walks of fitness and even medicine to your certifications. Are you getting people like physical therapists and occupational therapists? It's funny, the cross-section. Power lifters, I'm sure. The cross-section is just the intersections of the stuff I'm passionate about. So like we get, you know, trainers and coaches, obviously. And I hope that'll always remain because that means I'm keeping a finger on the pulse of and I'm actually staying active in training people face-to-face, right? Like I don't think there's a week that goes by that I'm not training with someone. Also the people that are probably impacting the most people, right? Yeah, and that's what we're after, man. Like we're after like the meta impact and I kind of tell that to all our students out of the jump is like, look, you know, I care about the 30 of your clients or the 40 or the 50 or the 100 or the thousands of clients will have over your career. Like you're a vehicle. Like you're a vehicle of this information. Like you want to talk meta impact, like how many downloads do you guys get a month? So there's a responsibility and there's an accountability that comes with that. So PTs and coaches are, I think, you know, a direct representation of how much that I do. And it's funny to see the shift like, you know, in the last four months I was on the road primarily in a strength coach position. And then you start to see our intakes draw in more strength coaches, right? Or if I'm doing things in a more clinical designation, like, you know, during the NFL season I'll probably travel more and do more clinical work. And we start to pull in more clinicians. So we'll have everything from physical therapists, chiropractors, you know, osteopaths, any manual medicine subdiscipline, physical there, sorry, personal trainers. And now we're starting to, you know, as we look to bridge the gap and you know, having relationships with a deal has helped this. We're starting to get more of the conventional medical community. Like we're starting to get a lot of medical doctors starting to look into this. That's awesome. Yeah, it's nice because you know what? I think ultimately the common trait that the people that come into our community have is that they want to help people. That's right, right. And you know, that's, a lot of people use that trope in like a self-proclaimed virtuous way. But you know, when you start to actually deal with the systems that are built around these things, the safeguard people, you start to realize, look, some of these systems are actually limiting my ability to help people, right? So... That's why I love personal trainers so much. I don't know anybody who became a trainer because they want to be rich. In fact, it's a terrible way to become rich. But they all really genuinely want to help people. You know, you're arming people with the tools and the knowledge. What we try to do is to build the philosophy or the Tao. Like this is the how and this is how you approach things. And here are the ways that you help people and work with them, but they need the tools. And so we're very, very fortunate to have people like you put stuff out like that. It's not a lot, not a lot out there. Do you have a favorite that you teach? Do you have a favorite like group of people? Like, do you like the clinicians better? Do you like, who do you like to teach the most? It's tough, man. I think I really like teaching the athletes. Because like, you know, we run a combine program every year that puts, you know, 30 of the top 300 NCAA. It's got to be because the adherence. Yeah, it's the adherence, but it's it's it's the idea like, look, you know, it's the meta impact at a level where, you know, if the specificity matters, right? Because, you know, you teach a lot of these young kids what to look out for in their career. And that's like a big thing. It's like, if someone ever tells you this, man, like I give all these kids my number. So I've been doing comp fuck, I've been doing combine prep for almost a decade and really intensely for the last three or four years. And so I'll get, you know, I've seen guys all the way through their career, unfortunately, in some cases with the NFL having the issues in managing load and the risk and that's associated with playing. But I'll get guys who I put the recombine two, three, four years ago, hit me up and it's like, Hey man, I got, you know, staff scaffold, lunatic dislocation, like they want to do this like, no, no, no, like, fuck, non-surgical is the move here. Go talk to this person, right? She's the best hand therapist in the United States. Go talk to her. And so it's, those are people that I like just cause the outcomes are like, the impact is so big. Right? Like, people watch them, listen to them. They have huge influence also. Yeah. And it's, you know what? They didn't get there. They didn't get there by like knowing the human body. They knew the game, right? So I think it's been really unique to, and from a communication standpoint, it's also something that's grounded me because, you know, I get that a lot. Yeah, we have to do another podcast to translate all the shit that Jordan said. But working with athletes and keeping my finger on the pulse, especially kids coming out of a four year college division one program who just want a ball, right? They're going to get the bag. What was a flower signing bonus? Like seven million dollars. Like, yeah, fuck it, dude, make your bread, dude. Like 100%, I'm like, I'll be your biggest fan. But they've helped me refine my delivery down to a level. And I teach coaches this. I teach like, so I'm going to tell like a little bit of a story. I grew up in Windsor, Ontario. And three minutes from where my parents live, there was a gun seizure. It's like kind of a rough part of Canada. It's like right opposite Detroit. And I loved it. It was the most poetic collection of guns I've ever seen. And it really stuck with me. There was a 22, a Benelli 12 gauge pump action shotgun and an M72 single shot rocket launcher. Okay. Right. Yeah. Windsor represent five or nine on the map. Yeah, what up, what up? I want XY axis. But it's odd. But it's so beautiful because like, if you know guns, you're like, oh, 22, someone breaks into your crib. They're going to, yeah, you shoot the guy, right? The Bill Burr joke. You just want to shoot the guy. The 12 gauge, it's like, you're going to have to redraw all after. And the M72 was like, yo, my neighbor's dog will shut the fuck up. Right. So, but I work on when I contextualize, you know, principles that I learned, especially when, and I talked to him and I'm translating some of like the really, really technical stuff. It's like I need, and I've heard Neil deGrasse Tyson talk about this too. It's like understanding how to communicate in sound bites relative to your audience. Right. So like the working with players has allowed me to create my 22, right? Like I have, you know, I can sit in circles with him and his colleagues with the M72 single shot. And I just sit there like this. Like, go ask me a question. Ask me a question. I'm going to go nuclear on this. Right. And it's like, you know, it's useful to have that and still trust your colleagues in different disciplines. And you know, when you deal with athletes, it really, you know, we kind of get siloed in our own worlds talking to other fitness professionals, but going there to like communications degree, four year, you know, Syracuse or Florida State or Alabama or Auburn, Georgia, whatever. Oh, I need to, I need to actually refine my accuracy with my 22, right? I've been sitting here thinking I'm some sort of academic marksman with an M72 and I'm just blowing shit up. I'm blowing, like blowing people's hair back. So that's been for me, like the most useful is actually teaching an individual athlete who's like, if such a peripheral really need to understand it. So what gets the message through is one, like the passion, like I'm in this shit. I'm in their face. I'm on the ground. I got my hands on their foot. I'm taking my shoe off. I'm like, I'm like sweating after every session. So that kind of gets them in the door. And then it's like, well, how do I communicate to this guy who, you know, once he signs his contract, once, you know, he gets his name called, he's going to make $7, $8 million. And he's got there, not everybody knowing this. So then how do I communicate a way that makes sense in long-term, we'll stick with him. So I think that's been for me the most beneficial because I was so focused on the M72 for so long, right? I was in school, you know, I'm coming into the industry, social media. I don't look like I work at the docks. So like I should probably try and sound really smart because I look like I deal drugs for a living. So, but now it's like kind of bringing it full circle and it's like, okay, how do I actually bring it to the masses? So yeah, that's been kind of my favorite. I always forget how young you are too. City Miles dog. You forget because I look terrible. No, no, no, because you sound, I mean, you're obviously one of them. Jordan, what, you said to that made me pose a question. So what sport presents the most challenges with load management? Oh, that's a really good question. Honestly, like, I probably wouldn't have said this up until this year, but professional tennis is getting up there, right? Cause if you look at the planes of motion, if you look at the repeated sprint ability, if you look how much time, and if you look at the schedule, there's no tennis season, right? Technically now we're coming off the U.S. Open and there won't be another slam until January, but you need to earn your, you kill what you eat in that game, right? Tennis players are fucking dogs, man. Like they are some of the hardest working athletes. They're the most health forward and they have no help, right? The ATP is probably one of the most unprofessional, professional sporting organizations there is, right? There's not like there's a commissioner, right? They, you know, and we get into the money side of the ATP and some of the issues that they're having and they're actually the first, they hadn't, didn't have a players association until very recently, right? So looking at tennis, having a close proximity to that, football has to be up there, you know, depending on the position, just because of the physicality. Right, because you're also, the other variables, people are hitting you at the same time too. Yeah, like, there's nothing that creates muscle, and we know this from a principal standpoint, there's nothing that creates muscle damage, like high velocity, eccentric. What do you think getting hit by Vita Vaya is? Yeah. Dude, homeboy, I'm telling you, in the first 10 yards, Vita Vaya on a line with Yonte Johnson and Debo Samuel is nose to nose. You know, do the physics on it. Why not? If you've ever watched that sports science show where they actually break it down, it's like the equivalent to like seven car crashes and some crazy shit like that. Every single Sunday, right? So, you know, the ability to manage load and just understand, like, even at a basic level, at a muscular level, what's happening in the tissue repair demands that are there, I would say soon after that would probably be mixed martial arts. USC, because there's- There's just so many- Well, you can't understate the role of sympathetic drive and shadow and pain. Have you ever been in a car accident? You don't really feel it until three or four days later, right? So they're tough to manage around fights because the adrenaline is so high, the sympathetic drive is so high. So I put those two top two. Awesome. I'll never guess tennis, that's cool. Always fun. Dude. Always fun. Absolute blast having you on, man. Both of you guys, great meeting you. Yeah, I know, it was a lot of fun. Hopefully I gave everyone something, like the perspective on like cell and gene therapy, you know, it was exciting. He just did this- Very exciting research, yeah. That he won't get killed. He's like, enough people will know me that they can't kill me now. We're gonna talk afterwards. Yeah, yeah, I guarantee we'll stay in touch for sure. For sure. Thanks for coming on. Thank you both. Yeah, thanks for having us.