 Well, thanks very much to all the speakers now over to you. I apologize that we haven't left more time for questions But I hope we sort of simulate something what I propose to us take around of questions and then we'll see after that We have any time remaining Thank you. Thank you very much. I enjoyed all three presentations very much I do indeed agree with a lot of the stylized facts that at today when I was give us and I share some of the Views about this above and the way it's shaping up What I find a bit of tension with in relation to Tony's presentation But basically the the challenges for African cities Have been identified for many many many years. Yeah, the African cities probably one of the most studied aspects of African development You'll find in almost every African University What I'm not sure of is how those studies filter through into what you are bringing out Indeed over the years the assumption has been that to try and do the kind of Functional change that you propose in your work here Will be too costly for the Africa every African government. And so the focus should be on Keeping away the migrants by developing smaller cities By developing what they call intermediate cities. So we don't have that large Evans pro That would be difficult to deal with I Don't see how that has been done in Africa. I don't see how it can be done in the future Like it was a cost issue There are many other variables to consider in terms of how you can transform the I break African city How do you do that in isolation from the bigger question about what you do with the African economy? How do you deal with urbanization? If you're not going to discuss industrialization So these are things that for me are interlinked and have to be dealt with in a much more Comprehensive manner. So yes, the African city problem is there But can you deal with it without discussing or dealing with the question of how do you industrialize Africa? Thanks, Chris. Just so we're so short of time if question can be very short and then we'll have more time for the panel So we get I'm sorry. Yeah In the migration Is that switched on in the migration aspect of your of your Program, and you you stressed the looking at the migrants coming in and how they handle that transition inwards another part of that Dynamic is who's leaving as well, isn't it that it probably the brightest best entrepreneurs young men May be leaving to go to other countries in Africa and and trying to get the connection between the coming in and out And the second is a quick question on when you were talking about the the impact of welfare and particularly grants It would be very interesting to look there and see if of the impact of that on enabling On enabling jobs job search, which is a pattern that I'm familiar with in South Africa Where it's not it's wrong. It's not right to put the welfare on just the consumption side, but actually the grants Not only getting kids to school, but but also enabling job search And then just finally to say that I think both Simon and your end and Tony venables Inputs there was the strong notion of you going people going to look for where jobs are and much less Emphasis on people creating their own jobs people making their own work Which is going to be the reality for the majority of people I would imagine. Thank you Thanks, could I ask people not only to be brief but also to identify themselves at the beginning? France land from the we go network and I'm Marty Chen from the we go network and Harvard University and I just want to say the context that we know the we go network We've done studies in 10 cities is urbanization without industrialization and Urbanization with a very large informal economy and our mantra is yes create jobs, but it isn't happening and Please preserve livelihoods and to preserve livelihoods We need to look at public space not just private land and the allocation of public space and for livelihoods as well as for leisure or for Formal commerce and we need to realize that slums those settlements that we want to move to the periphery of the cities Are not just places of residence. They're places of enterprise They are clusters of enterprises and when you move them to the periphery they begin to operate at a loss and we have to really think that whole plan of Densification and transport to encourage the livelihoods of people so I think there's a much Larger agenda than just creating jobs, but trying to preserve livelihoods and Realizing that center and periphery public land access are very critical to informal livelihoods Thanks, I think we'll just take one round of questions and give the panelists a chance to all close I'll take a couple more questions first From It's okay, so my question is about it's a comment actually about the upgrading or Reallocation of of slums of people living in slums So what I found missing the perspective of resilience in terms of The poorest people who are coming to who are migrating from rural to urban areas And they can't afford living somewhere else and in these slums. They're at high risk natural for natural hazard and in flood areas some some some of these cities and Also because of the unsanitary way they're living and the exposure They have so I think this is very important to take into account when deciding between Reallocation of people and or upgrading of the slums themselves and then the other thing following on the migration a question is we can see in for instance in the last years in Madagascar a lot of people following the political crisis and these Resilience people migrating back from urban to rural areas. So if you have any comments on that, thanks Okay, just two more but I should be very quick. Yes. I'm Sunil Bandu from University of Mauritius now I mean I've enjoyed the presentation But when you look at the the finance capital budgets what will involve they seem Astronomical huge and you wonder whether governments on their own will be able to to get the finance to do all this So my point is in your in your research I'm sure in your projects and so on so where these concepts of BOT bill operate and transfer and PPP come in because I think without these it will be almost impossible for governments on their own to provide all the finance to Get to the stage you need to get in the next 30 years So I think BOT and PPP will have to assume Extremely greater importance. What are your views on that? Thank you. Thank you. It's like just one final question Thanks for the presentation. I'm Adubo Lee from UNU wider Quick question to Tony Venerable's presentation You mentioned that there is low density in most African cities So I was just wondering about the causes and also some policy ideas about how to change that. Thank you Well, thank you very much for such a great range of questions So now we'll close by my asking each of the speakers and I guess I'll ask them to do it in order that they spoke To respond to the questions to the extent they can and and please excuse us if we don't do so fully Give them this constraints of time and then add any closing comments. They would like so Tony Yeah, let me try and just pick up on a few of them Yeah, I think I agree completely with the spirits of what what what what Ernest was saying Yeah, I mean cities do have to be seen as part of a comprehensive Development strategy and cities have to be seen as a whole in themselves But perhaps the the innovation would be to say I mean you have to see cities as drivers of the industrialization Strategy right cities aren't a sort of obstacle to it a problem. They are where where that economic change is going to happen So, yeah, they have certainly see it comprehensively, but with cities playing that key driving role I didn't talk much at all in the talk about sort of secondary cities and the hierarchy I mean, I think I think it is going to be very important for Africa to develop secondary cities I mean retrofitting existing ones will partly the scale of the problem and partly retrofitting existing ones is horribly expensive So the secondary city thing does need to come up the agenda The further comment on that is Again see that as part of the See these secondary cities as drivers of growth, which basically means put them in sensible places Where people want to go and where firms are going to want to go and clearly there are lots of examples of them People trying to put them in they're not very sensible places Yeah, on the sort of density livelihood point Yeah, I was talking about as if it was just density to attract footloose manufacturing But I think absolutely density cuts in at all all those sort of levels It's not just internationally traded goods or regionally traded goods. It's the locally traded good It's the market the vibrancy the service sectors and things so yeah really supporting density vibrancy on those levels I think is is really important Yeah capital funding, I mean obviously I argued that there there's a potential revenue stream from you know property taxation whatever Which is important, but there are timing issues on that so that the need to raise capital But also a lot of the capital we're talking about I think does naturally come from the private sector I mean residential housing. I mean clearly there's a role for public housing But Much more private capital could insured through capital markets and mortgages Go it go into residential housing. So there's a public need but also Private money can go you can go into the the residential housing stock And I think that leads into the last point. I want one dimension I mean the the causes of low density. I mean a lot of it if you look at the residential side Yeah, there are I mean I think on my last slide. I mentioned some of the failures Yeah, I mean people are not going to invest if property rights are uncertain If building regulations such that you can't actually afford a house within the regulation So you have to go outside the regulations and if capital markets are screwed up, right? So so there's a net that there are a whole load of fairly clear Perhaps difficult to achieve but fairly clear things that could be done to get more capital going into more Substantial construction in the private housing sector Okay, I'm denser therefore Yeah, the better quality to two three four five-story not single-story shacks Thanks, Tony and Simon Okay, let me try and respond as efficiently as I can to to everything I've on the issue of Livelihoods, I think everything that was said I agree with and that's I think what I was Trying to get it and maybe didn't do didn't do justice too I think I think that's exactly what welfare should be there for is for helping people to find to find jobs To to aid people's livelihoods to help them to start businesses in the informal sector to create jobs All of those sorts of things and and they should be aimed towards towards that And for for mitigating the risks of migration and helping Migrants who are in this vulnerable vulnerable phase? I mean at the moment in Addis Ababa rent subsidies go to long-term residents of the city you can rent a Rent a room in the center of Addis from the government for 50 cents a month 50 or cents a month And a huge number of people who've a long-term residents of the city get those subsidies It's not clear that they're the they're the people that should be getting those subsidies They're they're well established in in the city And so that's so that's maybe something to think about In terms of relocation, that's yeah, there are there are tensions there There are people who are able to live in the city the center of the city because of subsidies that that are allowing them to Do that and we do want to to make sure that that people have continued access to their livelihoods in the center rents are increasing for a lot of people and they're being forced out of those areas naturally and and And governments at the same time are relocating people forcefully to make way for new infrastructure projects So these things are happening and and we need to think about what what sort of housing responses do are appropriate for that so Yeah, I mean there's all all things that I agree with And I think will require more research Yeah, sorry, I'm not sure of them answering that perfectly I Think they just touch on a really kind of big issue and I acknowledge that this is still kind of hotly debated Amongst economists we had had this kind of notion of whether we should be discouraging migration or not There's a lot of talk about you know urbanization without industrialization or even the idea that an urbanization is too fast in the setting This is this is still an open topic of debate I tend to think that that that notion is wrong that Urbanization is happening because people find opportunities in cities and if you do manage to make them the move You you're likely to have a good livelihood with a with a high salary And we know from a lot of evidence that people are Constrained more people would like to move but it's risky And so I think we should be helping people to move and we should be increasing Migration I don't have an answer to the to how we Get industrialization going along with that in the meantime people are arriving in cities and finding jobs in the informal sector and the growing private sector That is happening And aiding that as much as possible is is is important So Yeah, last thing I think we if that urbanization is encouraged as We've been saying that needs to come with all this sort of this sort of investment Governments are spending this money the Ethiopian government is spending vast vast sums on housing projects and welfare and work fair programs They're finding the finance for it and it's about Deciding on the appropriate policies for using that money Good. Thanks. I mean you chose Just a couple of points one is that Of course on the scale at which things need to be delivered for the cities to function the the existing revenue base is not gonna be enough and For provincial governments at least in Pakistan they cannot Do the equivalent of the federal government's deficit financing? By law they have to live within the budgets that they have so the only way This current chief minister of Punjab can can do this massive investments in infrastructure in cities is through public-private partnerships That that green line that I that I showed you in Lahore. That's public-private partnership There's the orange line that's coming up has a huge Chinese investment in it And in fact these these kinds of arrangements have now been extended to sanitation services as well in the city So so I think it's it's only gonna be possible by bringing in the private sector in one form or the other And then creating the right environment for the private sector to come in. I Completely agree with you. I I really think that Whereas of course the government should do whatever it can to support people in their livelihood Pursuits when they move to the cities but but but rural urban migration is going to happen regardless of what we do to try to discourage it Even when agricultural productivity increases agriculture sheds labor and Therefore people will move the question is what kind of jobs will they move to? You they can they can always get jobs, which are a little bit higher paying than than what they had in the in the rural areas But but but that's not that's not the kind of urbanization that that we have in mind Therefore, I think Creating high productivity Especially manufacturing sector job has to be an integral part of the urbanization strategy Which is why embedding city level interventions in the larger growth strategy is so important Thanks, he does. Well, I apologize again for running over time Let me just finish very quickly with a what I think is is perhaps the Most relevant one sentence or two sentence summary of what we talked about today And I think the key message that comes out of the research we've heard today and certainly the research of the IGC as a whole in This area is that cities are drivers of growth and development not obstacles to growth and development So yes, there are many challenges and as as we've heard today There's a huge challenges But that we need to be thinking about enabling actions to help cities make the transition to become more functional to become more productive We know they're important not only in terms of the growth trajectory of countries But also the welfare of individuals and I think the point that Simon made which is so important Is that we know that people who move to cities are better off so we shouldn't be blocking that process We should be facilitating that but also addressing these huge issues that face cities anyway Thank you very much for your attention and particularly for your patience