 Good afternoon, and thank you for joining us for another episode of Condo Insider. This is a program where we talk about condominium living and provide information for people who live, work, and have anything to do with condominiums. And today our guest on our show is Assistant Chief Socrates Batacos. Thank you, Chief, for being with us. Hi. Good afternoon, Jane. Thank you for having me on the show today. Okay. Well, we're here to talk about a very hot topic, very hot topic, because there was some legislation in the city in response to the Marco Polo fire that happened tragically in July of 2017. And that bill started off Bill 69, and it is now Ordinance 1418. And it talks about fire sprinklers in high-rise condominiums. Yes, that's correct. Bill 69 became Ordinance 1814, and it basically mandates a retrofit of automatic fire sprinkler systems in existing high-rise buildings that don't have them with certain exceptions and exemptions. Okay. And this applies to high-rise buildings in Oahu only. This is only for Oahu high-rise buildings that were built basically before the 1980s, really, that don't have sprinkler systems throughout. High-rise building is one that is 75 feet above the ground to the highest level of occupation. There's a couple little definitions, but that's it, mostly eight stories and above. And these are residential high-rises. And these are residential high-rises. And about how many high-rises are there in Oahu? Oh, there is roughly about 360 of those buildings. Okay. And Bill 1418, I mean Ordinance 1418, requires these buildings to report to the Honolulu Fire Department that they're going to comply with the Ordinance. Isn't that true? Yes. And how do they do that? Ordinance 1814 asks the buildings or their managers on their behalf to write a letter into the Honolulu Fire Department of the city and county of Honolulu to say that they intend to comply with this Ordinance. And is there a deadline for them to come write this letter? Yes. They're supposed to write that letter in 180 days of the effect of the Ordinance. And that was May 3rd. So by November 3rd, the buildings are supposed to write a letter to the Fire Department saying they intend to comply, which is they intend to get a life-safety evaluation, or they intend to put in sprinklers or some other methodology to comply with passing that life-safety evaluation. The Fire Department will then reply and acknowledge that they received such a letter within 60 days. Okay. What happens if you're one of these buildings who have to send in a letter and you don't do it? If you don't send in a letter, then you're in violation of the Fire Code and Ordinances of the city and county of Honolulu. And that can lead to further actions by the city up to an including prosecution, fine, or prison time. Oh, well, that's real serious. So we want the buildings who are listening that if they haven't gotten around to writing this letter that they should, and they could ask their managing agent, their property management companies for assistance, because I know that several of them are working on forms that they're going to give to their clients. Exactly. Most of the larger property management companies have some templates for this letter already. A lot of them have been contacting us as well as writing in their letters already. We've been giving them suggestions. And it's basically just to say that you intend to comply with the provisions of Ordinance 1814. That's the main thing that should be included on that letter. Okay. You know, of those 360 high-rise buildings that you talked about in Oahu, are any of them exempt from the requirement to install fire sprinklers in their buildings? Yes, there are some. Now, all 360 buildings must get a life safety evaluation within three years and pass within six years. That's for all of them. And the standard is to retrofit with sprinklers. But right off the bat, buildings under 10 stories, eight and nine stories, and buildings with exterior walkways across the length of the building only, no interior corridors, are exempt from the sprinkler provisions. And they still have to get a life safety evaluation. They still have to pass. So out of the 360 buildings, there's about 210 that are exempt from the sprinklers right off the bat. Okay, explain what is an open exterior corridor. That's one of the exemptions that, you know, type of buildings that are exempt. An open exterior corridor is one where all the units front doors open onto an open hallway that's open to the outside, and the entire length of that open corridor leads out to the exit stairwell on both sides of the hallway. And that's basically an open corridor. There might be some small variations to that. If anyone thinks that they have an open corridor and somebody said they have a closed corridor, they can check with us. But basically, it's supposed to be open the whole length of the building. Okay, and you mentioned the life safety evaluation. What is a life safety evaluation? A life safety evaluation is a way to check on the fire and life safety provisions of the building, how it's constructed, and what is the condition of the fire protection and fire notification systems in the building. This evaluation has a matrix of items that need to be looked at, and we'll talk about some of them a little bit later on, and should be done by a licensed architect or engineer in the state of Hawaii, and that's basically what it is. And this life safety evaluation, you said it looks at different items relating to a building. So, for example, I mean, just give us some examples of what kinds of things are being looked at. A few things that are looked at right off the bat, and this is some things that were talked out at council. What makes a high risk in a building is, is it a very tall building? Is it a big building? Is it made out of concrete, or does it have some drywall? Does it have sprinklers throughout the building? Does it have a modern alarm system or not? Does it have a standpipe in the stairwell, and several other factors that get looked at? Okay, and with these, you know, evaluations, you mentioned that the people who conduct these evaluations are licensed architects and engineers. Yeah, it can only be licensed architects and engineers, and my understanding is there's not many licensed architects or engineers that are going to do this evaluation, unless they're experts in this type of field evaluating a building, they don't want to jeopardize their licenses if they're working out of their regular work experience. So. Okay, and has the fire department met with these professionals to discuss with them what they have to do? Yes, the fire department has met with many of the professionals. In fact, some of them were ones who helped us to formulate this, helped the Residential Fire Safety Advisory Committee of the City and County of Honolulu to format this, that we've met with others after. Because these are fire code and building code provisions, the engineers and architects are very familiar with them already, even more so in many cases than the experts in the fire department are. Okay, and you mentioned that all high-rises, including those that are exempt, have to pass the life safety evaluation. That's absolutely correct. They all need to pass. So that means if you're a nine-story building and you have exterior quarters, you still have to pass the life safety evaluation. You still have to pass the life safety evaluation. Now this is not for buildings that are sprinkled already, because I've gotten a couple of letters like that. If your building is fully sprinkled, your newer building just does not apply to you. This is not for business buildings either. This is for residential high-rise buildings higher than 75 feet. That's usually eight stories and above without sprinklers. Yes. And there's been some, not some controversy, but there's been some questions about whether, I mean, what's the difference between 10 stories and 75 feet? Oh. I think the ordinance talks about 75 feet and 10 stories. And people have pointed out, well, there's kind of a discrepancy between those two values. The intention of the ordinance was to have this applied to a high-rise building, which is defined as 75 feet in the building code and fire code, both the current and existing codes. Sometimes it's from the lowest level of access, sometimes the highest level of access in the fire truck. The 10 stories came in where the ARF SAC and the fire department were trying to give a break to those that are something like a mid-rise building, the eight and nine-story buildings. This still applies to every building above 75 feet. Below 10 stories, eight and nine, you're exempt from the sprinklers, same as the buildings with my entire exterior walkways. And for clarification, you said earlier that if you're a building that's fully protected by sprinklers, which means that you're a newer building that was built after the ordinance was passed about sprinklers. So that means that you don't have to comply with the life safety evaluation. No. If you're a newer building that's sprinkled already, you don't have to do this life safety evaluation. It might be a good idea for you to take a look at it for your building. We find out there's this very helpful way to look at how you want to maintain the safety of your building, but you don't have to do it for this ordinance. Okay. And so if you're a building that's fully sprinkled, that means you don't have to do the letter either. Your building is fully sprinkled. You don't have to write a letter to the city, to the fire department. Okay. Because, and this is for the benefit of those buildings that are fully sprinkled. And if you're listening, because I got a call from somebody who lived in one of these buildings, and they were told by their managing agent that they had to write the letter. No. You're all okay. If you, in fact, we've had one or two letters like that, and we've written back and said, you do not need to do an evaluation. This ordinance does not apply to you as you are sprinkled throughout per NFPA 13. You are covered already. Okay. Well, we're getting, we're almost to the halfway point. So why don't we take a break now, and we will come back, and we will talk about the matrix. Okay. Sounds good. Okay. Thank you. Hello, and welcome to Out of the Comfort Zone. I am your villainous host, R.B. Kelly. Today we are playing Two Truths and a Lie, and I will tell you Two Truths, and you will tell me which one is the lie. Truth number one, this is a real mustache. Truth number two, I want you to watch my show on Tuesdays at 1 p.m. So tune in and let me know which is the truth and which is the lie. I'm R.B. Kelly with Out of the Comfort Zone and show up next Tuesday to see my mustache live. Hey, Stan Energyman here on Think Tech Hawaii, and they won't let me do political commentary, so I'm stuck doing energy stuff, but I really like energy stuff, so I'm going to keep on doing it. So join me every Friday on Stan Energyman at lunchtime, at noon, on my lunch hour. We're going to talk about everything energy, especially if it begins with the word hydrogen. We're going to definitely be talking about it. We'll talk about how we can make Hawaii cleaner, how we can make the world a better place, just basically save the planet. Even Miss America can't even talk about stuff like that anymore. We got it nailed down here. So we'll see you on Friday at noon with Stan Energyman. Aloha. Okay, welcome back to our show on the fire safety ordinance, and my guest today is Assistant Chief Socrates Pataco. Hi again. Okay. So we're going to talk about, you mentioned the matrix, and the matrix is like a spreadsheet that assists the people who do the evaluation. That's correct, and it's actually titled the fire and life safety evaluation. We call it life safety evaluation, or LSE for short, and it is a matrix on a spreadsheet. It's got fields that need to get filled out, about 20 of them, and if an engineer architect goes through, uses the code and their knowledge to fill out those fields, they'll come out with an answer at the end, whether the building meets minimum safety standards per the ordinance of the city and county of Honolulu. And this matrix, who was it prepared by? The matrix was prepared by members of the Residential Fire Safety Advisory Committee, in particular the Fire Code and Building Codes Group. Okay. And it's part of the ordinance, isn't it? Yes, it is part of the ordinance. So that means that it is public information, and in fact, it's on your website. It's public information, it's on the samples on the ordinance, and we have a locked Excel spreadsheet that is on the Honolulu Fire Department website. And so the people who are doing the evaluation, the way they get this matrix is they go to your website, basically, and download it. They download this, they're not able to change any of the fields. All they can do is import scores. Okay. And we have a copy of the matrix available, and the audience is going to be seeing it while you're talking, right? Okay, good. Right? And yes, and here it is, right? Okay. And the first thing that the matrix does on the first page, it looks at some characteristics of the building and its occupants. It looks if the people can easily escape out to the stairwell, or they need some help. Or in a very rare case, we don't even think should be used where they're not able to get out. Those scores might affect the status of the building. Actually, not very much if they can get out easily or need some help. But if they couldn't, it might affect. We don't think that'll be used very often. The height of the building and how many people live in the building per floor is important too. That becomes a bigger job for the occupants and the firefighters to get them out, otherwise. Okay, so really, what's on the first page basically are risk factors, right? Because the smaller the building, the smaller the risk, if it's a 40-story building, it takes more time for the firefighters to get up into the building and for the residents to get out. Yes, that's absolutely true. And then we move on to the second page. The second page has about 17 fields that need to be filled in, and this continues to identify some parameters that help to determine whether the building is safe or not. And some of them are just characteristics of the building. Does it have concrete between the units, or does it have drywall? Does it have stairwell with a stempipe or not? Does it have sprinklers in it or not? There are a few areas that I'd like to cover that really any building association or owner should look at. The first one is doors to the corridors. We learned, unfortunately, through Marco Polo Fire and other fires around the country, it is very important to have fire-rated doors with automatic closers. If doors are not closed in the event of a fire, then fire can spread rapidly, especially through any building with an interior corridor. So in this particular field, if you've got a door that is a rated door with a closed door, you get more points. If you have an inch and three-quarter inch, inch and three-quarter wooden door with a closure again, less points. If you don't, you've got some minus points that will affect the evaluation. What's a closure? The closure is that automatic metal arm that's on the back side of the door, inside department, that should close the door in a closed position. Automatically. Automatically, and at all times. That door is designed to be closed. That limits the spread of fire. Okay. Okay. Door is very important. You mentioned fire-rated. Is there something on the door that will tell the residents that it's fire-rated? Yes. There's a label on the door. They will say if that is a fire-rated door. And that is supposed to be there on every door, or that would be a one and three-quarter inch door. So the designers, architects, and engineers know this. They can look for that label on the door itself. Where is it on the door? It's on the narrow edge of the door. It's in the jam, isn't it? Or in the jam, yes. So that's where they can look to see if it's there. That's where the label can be seen. And now that's the doors to the quarters. The doorway assemblies to the stairwell are another thing. Those are the frame, the glass in the doors. Everything about the door has to be a fire-rated door. It's an entire system that needs to be looked at. And before we get off the doors, I mean, one thing I think that was in the report on the Marco Polo was that some of the quarter doors were open. What happened is some of those doors were open. People were trying to take advantage of the breeze. They had another interior door that had vents in it. And unfortunately, when the solid doors or the rated doors are propped open and other doors with openings are the only thing between an apartment and a fire, the smoke and flame can spread. And it did in the Marco Polo. So those doors are not supposed to be open? Those doors are not supposed to be open. Doors are supposed to be closed all the time. Okay. Okay. Next, I want to talk about vertical openings. That's something that we don't always give much thought to. But vertical openings are your stairwells, your elevator shaft, where there are also the heating ventilation and air conditioning shafts where the plumbing and electrical conduits go up and down between floors. Those spaces need to be sealed per code, per building code. It's always been like that. Some of our buildings that hasn't always been maintained or maybe even wasn't done as well in the first place, the MGM Grand Hotel in particular was a fire that spread very quickly through the interior, through the vertical openings. So it's important that those vertical openings are checked. We think that architects and engineers don't need to go in every single unit, but they're going to need to go in a percentage of them, for example, 20% to be able to look and see if these openings have been sealed properly. And that's a big minus point if that's not sealed the way it's supposed to be, but it's a very good protection factor if it's maintained according to the code. And in an apartment, where would these vertical openings be? You'll find them probably near the toilet, where the plumbing is. If there's a shaft where the electrical comes into the unit and every building is going to be a little bit different and sometimes they're going to be closed up. So it's going to be up the engineers and architects look, might be in a closeted utility area and of course the elevator shafts and stairwells themselves. They have to be intact, closed off from the rest of the building. And one of the concerns I think that we raised when we had our meeting was associations would be, the association really has, does not have the right to go into the units. And with the ordinance it's not clear that the city has the right to go into the unit. So there was a concern raised about whether or not under the life safety evaluation, people who do the evaluation, the inspectors, the architects or the engineers, would have to physically go into the units. And so you're saying that they have to go into at least 20% of the units. They're going to have to be able to go into at least 20% of the areas to see or they would not be able to document that for sure those vertical openings are compliant with the code. So that would be up to the association and its residents to make sure that there's access provided for whatever the designers need to look at. And so if 20% is like the most, how long would each, how long would this access, I mean, how long would it take for somebody to go in and check these vertical openings in 20% of the units? You know, to go into like a two-bedroom apartment? I don't think it would take more than a few minutes in each individual apartment. And then the total amount of time would depend on the type of building that we're talking about. Okay. And you know, we have, with condominiums, we have something called a high-risk component inspection, which many buildings do at least, you know, every other year. If these inspections were the, where they have to go into the units were times to coincide with these, what do you call it, these inspections. That way, you know, you're sure to get access because the association has to, you know, make arrangements to get into the units. Well, that sounds like a very good way to do that. Take advantage of the existing law, be able to look at all the areas that are important to the association, including these vertical openings. Okay. We're running kind of out of time. We have one more that you wanted to deal with. Yeah. I want to talk about a fire alarm system out of all the things in the building. They really got to be taking care of, is a fire alarm system. Now, all buildings have a fire alarm system, but we're going to look if they're compliant now. Okay. And we're going to have to be a little stricter than we were possibly in the past. If you don't have a sprinkler system, you've got to have an alarm system that's using you L listed parts that works adequately, has no troubles. That means lights on the panel and is audible in all the units. That means that you've got to be able to go inside a unit, close the door, ring the alarm out on the hall, and it can be heard. Now, that might be hard for some of the older units. I just want to warn the folks out there in the buildings. If you've got an alarm system that's over, say, 30 years old and you have not replaced it yet, you're probably looking at doing so either because you cannot get parts, or because it's not working properly, or it may not be able to be heard from some of the units. So that's a good thing to look at. And I know that the fire department is doing their outreach program to educate the public on this law. And we appreciate the fact that the fire department is doing this. So this is just one of the outreach efforts, and we hope that they will continue because it's going to take a whole lot of education and talking to reach 360 associations and buildings in this city. That's correct. So as our fire inspectors come around, you can always talk to them. We have some materials on our website. We've been talking to property management associations and AOAO associations, neighborhood boards, and we'll continue to do so. You can always call up the fire department, contact us, and we'll be happy to make arrangements to do some educational sessions. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Chief, for being on our show and for making the department available to the associations out there because everybody's kind of panicking because they don't know what it's going to cost and what it's going to take. And I think the more that we talk about it, the less anxiety there will be. I agree. So thank you very much for coming to talk to us about this, and good luck on your outreach program. You're very welcome, and thank you for having me again. Thank you.