 Welcome back it's still the breakfast on plus TV Africa away from off the press we'll be looking at something that's been trended you know the hashtag horrible bosses but specifically we're looking at the employees right and we have a guest there joining us a messy algo let us give me a bit of a background there an employment relationship is an employment relationship is established between employer and employee when the president performs work or services under certain conditions in return for remuneration with the very laws government employment related matters in Nigeria some of these employment laws include the Niger labor act the pensions act the industrial training act employee compensation act trade unions act among others now toxic walkplaces in Nigeria have been a hot topic on the internet with many revelations about the negative employee-employer relationships how much of protection does the employment law provide for the Nigerian worker what does the label act say about employees right we have a messy algo joining us good morning thanks for joining us on the breakfast and plus TV Africa thank you very much i'm happy to be here yeah so for quite some time now this hashtag and horrible bosses you know has been trending all over the internet but let's just talk about the employer-employer relationship ordinarily it should be a win-win situation you know so we have various laws in Nigeria would you say the Nigerian law provides enough protection you know for the employers yes um the Nigerian laws we have beautiful laws in Nigeria that provides for protection for employees so the only problem with Nigeria is that um they lack implementation of these laws and the employees don't even know about these laws they don't know about the protection they have under these laws so employees are just too quick to sign contracts of employment they are just too quick to begin a position without checking the integrities of what that position or what that company or establishment has for them so that is why we have such situations and employees may just be there you know trying to like find ways to know their rights when they would have just checked their contract of employment or check the laws that should govern those employment contracts well okay well some of the concerns that's been raised as regards i mean of course in recent time even up until yesterday you had different sector of the economy you had the entertainment as a yesterday uh nollywood was also in the space with the horrible boss experience and what have you that hashtags they were ongoing and do you think that the laws that we have at niger just like we have mentioned in that background uh still you know protect and talks about what spells out um some of these issues are some a lot of persons have raised on the internet majorly you know there's there's a word for a toxic workplace and that's been it so you have issue where uh employees are verbally abused you have also going going on so do you think that this loss that we have um cuts across and protects uh the employers from this kind of employees from this kind of um hazards well yeah the laws protect and now beautifully we have the national industrial courts where people can go and um institute actions against the employees or workplaces so um apart from the toxic workplaces the verbal abuse the national industrial court rules also provides for situations of sexual harassment in workplace so they may not they may not be in law like the labor act the employee compensation act they may not be any specific law regards regarding the sexual harassment in workplace for example but the national industrial court rules provides for steps even as little as um verbal communications not just touching not just rape but where um an employee an employer is making some kind of verbal sexual um advances to the employee or maybe just sending new pictures to an employee those cases can arise and an employee can use that to sue or institute an action against an employer so so once you say that you know the laws that we have are not very clear I mean um very explicit and like very exact and definite about some of these issues just like you have mentioned now and if you look at the hashtag to spit on going uh not necessarily having so much of sexual harassment but mostly you have issue of mild treatment you have issue of verbal abuse confrontations and the list is almost endless if you want to look at it don't you think that at this point we'll begin to say that the Nigerian law the labor acts these laws are very you're talking about the issue of ambiguity now well yes so because the most of the laws we have just govern um compensation um money how salaries are paid and all of that so they don't govern these parts just as you said they don't really um stipulate they are not clear as to toxic environment so I think there's another part um the laws our national assembly and law makers should look into because we just have some of these things are just embodied in the international labor convention which is not yet ratified in Nigeria so it doesn't have any legal basis because it cannot be realized not an enabling law so we just the national industrial courts can just make reference to it even though nowadays the national industrial court um adopts it because of their powers they have on that section 254c of the constitution that it can for best practices they can rely on international standard for best practices but even at that it is inconsistent with the constitution because it is not an enabling law yet so I think that first of all if the international labor conventions can be ratified in Nigeria that's the first step to making this um these issues concerning horrible buses and toxic environments to be placed to be legal in such a way that um employers will not have a right to say okay so you don't have any case for me you don't have a case against me even if I do this or do that so I think that's the first step ratifying the international labor conventions in Nigeria and also making specific laws concerning these things so that employer employees will have a right of their own and then um making these laws known to employees because some of us some of them I'm an employee myself so the employees if you're not careful you may just um feel like okay I don't have any right I just have to manage and coupled with the economic situation in Nigeria an employee may be scared to say oh I should I institute an action I may not have any job elsewhere waiting for me so those are the things that should be put in place the government should put them in place make specific laws clear laws that will make enable the employees to have to know their rights and know that these things are clearly stated for them but then I believe it should be a two-way street it should be a win-win situation employer-employee relationship which is where the human resource management you know you know come in because most times and most people just believe is I work for you at the end of the month I should get paid shouldn't it go beyond just them working for pay to relationship of knowing about the mental health other aspect of the employer or even the employer so there will be some sort of a symbolic relationship yeah I got you so um aside being a legal practitioner I'm also a certified human resource person do not seriously practice yet so but I understand the fact that for establishments that have human resource persons they ensure they try as much as possible to ensure that they know the needs of the employees as regards the needs of the employers because definitely some places are some work places are toxic not necessarily because of the employer the employees are toxic you know amongst themselves so you see an employee an employee who is maybe a superior to the employee so a fellow employee and it makes the place so terrible and for the subordinator exactly so and it's not necessarily so the person can come out to say oh my boss is horrible but when you look at it it's not really the boss it's a fellow employee line manager exactly so if some places cannot afford human resource persons some places just feel okay there's no need to have a human resource person so um in such situations I've worked in a place where or should I say I'm working in a place where um we have to though we have human resource persons but sometimes depending on how maybe the output of work is we have to go outside to consult to bring in consultants you understand to like check the needs of the people to check the needs because when you realize that the output of work is not as as it used to be you want to know what's wrong with these employees so in such situations so it's a two-way thing apart from the laws these employers should be sensitized in a way that they should know that okay the mental health of your employees is also something that you need to put into consideration if you want your business to grow and some just feel oh I pay you so no matter what I do you have to work for me the way I want you to work for me so besides the laws that govern these things they should be sensitization and there should be enforcement agencies to put that will put in place these things to say okay that like to look into the way we have NAVDAC that look into manufacturing and other regulations we have an agency that regulates this employee and employees not just the labor union you understand you just have um other agencies that will look into these and maybe go from companies offices to offices to make sure that these things are put in place for the employees okay um let's also look at it you know in the course of this conversation you've talked about the fact that a lot of Nigerians are not in the know of their rights uh you know as a Nigerian worker can you please take us through you know what a worker should know now let's not forget that you have the private sector yeah you also have the public sector of course you're talking about those who are working for the government and those who are in the private sector uh can you please take us through what you know Nigerian workers in different sectors should know okay so um the labor act is one that governs you know everybody and then apart from the employee conversation act which is basically about um employees who got injured or have any issues arising from work now basically in the workplace especially nowadays we have the contract of employment which governs so when you have a contract of employment that has all of those things stated there which things your period of work your salary your pension and every other things there every other thing you're supposed to be doing in the workplace so everything has to be clearly stated out in a contract everything yes so um due to the fact that most establishments have the HR personnel right now so even if it's not stated in your contract of employment there will still be um a child yes an HR policy manual that will stipulate it for you but the labor act also stated that it states that if you're not giving such there should be a written statement within three months of employment and that written statement should contain all of those things that you're supposed to know should contain the name of the employer it should contain the your work prescription it should also contain your duration of work if you be working from Monday to Friday or Monday Monday to Saturday and the labor act also provides that for every week for you you are entitled to one day rest so you see some persons work from Monday to Saturday and they complain some work from Monday so the the labor act stipulates that you have to work if you're working for a week you have to have a 24 hour rest that's one day so luckily some offices have Monday to Friday where you have the weekend through yourself so but the mistake we often make as employees is we have a contract of employment most times when people complain about um working extra hours over time and you don't read your contract of employment because I I know that there are some contracts of employment that stipulates that Monday to Friday and every other time where you're supposed to work if the need arises something like that there's a clause that is usually put in there and then employees come to complain about working overtime so that is why it's good to for employees to know that okay before you sign any contract of employment you need to look at the integrities of that contract you're signing before you have them because there's an exception to everything stated in the most of the things stated in the labor act that where there's a contract of employment and it has been signed by the employee and the employee has a copy of that contract of employment then some of the things within the labor act will not apply what will apply will be the contract of employment okay but where it is not clearly stated about overtime for instance you're just told on the maybe you're supposed to do a 40 hour week or something and sometimes because of a lacuna here and there you're expected to do some more and it's not clearly stated you have a right to demand for an overtime payment or something yes you do you have a right to demand is under the labor act you have a right to demand for working extra hours you even have a right to demand for like the labor act also provides that where you're working for more than six hours in a day you have a right to more than one hour break within that space of time unless there's something there's there are circumstances where that would it would be impossible for the one hour break to apply so if you're working for more than six hours in a day you should be able to take one hour break and labor act specifically stated that it shouldn't be less than one hour so if you're working like that you have a right to demand for your pay all right okay so let's begin to you know look at the issue of salaries and payment I mean we talk about the issue of minimum wage and if you are in Nigeria if you've been following you know the conversation you know that the Nigerians especially those in the public sector have been talking about 30 000 minimum wage and some states are saying oh we don't have resources to pay we cannot pay minimum wage because states are differently endowed and states have different capacity now the law that surrounds or that talks about minimum wage does it also you know protect or does it cross across you know the private sector or it's just limited to you know the public sector for that is just limited to the public sector so there are no laws for it yes when you look at it holistically it provides for just the public sector so the private sectors they have because you see some employees ending 20 000 and they do so much work it's just like a place in Lagos you see employees ending like 20 000 and in a month they spend more than that in transportation so it's it's it's applies to just the private sector if you look at it holistically okay but then again like I said before it is a two-way street the employees have their right and so do the employers you know so just how do you strike a balance how do you also ensure that the employers too are also protected from maybe some on wanton act or some on scrupulous act by some employers who may just want to use some loopholes and may not necessarily want to do the work okay so um basically the rights that the employees have at the moment is just with suit actions in court that is what they have at the moment so and the national industrial court is a kind of it's kind of liberal in the sense that it makes so much noise it has so much protection for the employees so the only problem is just an enjoyment factor in the sense that when someone thinks of how to institute an action how long it will take before that action is determined and all of that the person may just not know you think I was asking about the employer themselves oh the employer yes okay so the only things the employers can do is to have a good welfare package for the employees and that includes having a HR personnel in the system so because when the there's another thing about sensitization because if these employers are not sensitized a lot of employers just feel that they're doing employees a favor by even giving them employment so if they are not sensitized or if there are no injustices that will enforce these things the employers with these things will keep going on and on and on so it is something that law should be clearly stated for the employers enforcement injustices should be there to ensure that these things are put in place and then the employer should there should be something that before you open an establishment or before you start a business you should be able to have things in place for the employees so because there are no eyes looking at these employers they just feel like oh they can do anything we want to do and at the end of the month whatever we give to the employees you take it so how do you put a human face to it because sometimes issues are bound you know people might feel disgruntled somehow they feel maybe they are not actually earning enough or maybe their pay is not commensurate with what they do sometimes they just may want to stay off work because they feel they are doing more than enough in that case what should the employer be doing okay just like I mentioned earlier I'm in a place where we have to get a consultant to come in you know it's different when you're when you have someone in house that already knows these things the person may not be you know too quick to make decisions and all of that so we had to go the extra mile to get an outside to consult someone to come in and look at the situation so the person was able to come in look at the employees check what they are going to listen to them and at the end of the day there was a kind of win-win balance you understand so the welfare of the employees where I'm provided for at least not it's not optimally but I will say 80% and everybody it's a win-win situation the employee is happy the employers are happy there's a good output at work so that is that's one of the things that employers can do in such a situation and also checking for them to also have because like I said earlier employee employers don't have HR persons they just feel okay if you're ahead of management you can do the HR work so just do it so that's where we have the HR personnel well let's let's also look at it I like us you you know I think that we have actually stayed with the legal you know part of what the law says and the rights that are protected unfortunately a lot of persons do not understand your right as employees and you know on the other hand you also have employers not understanding you know what they ought to do and so it becomes you know a jumble and all of that so a lot's going on but let's look at some of the concern because for the past two days I think it's something that might just go on for a very long time you have this space being boss with horrible bosses and experiences you have one of the issues that the spin raised and dominated the space is the issue of you have employers beating up employees and how do you address that the first question that's number one the big question for me would be how did we get to that point as a people well I would I would start by saying is the economy yeah because economy what sense is it something that just happened 2022 or something that's been going on you know the thing is when you look at Nigerian situation a lot of people are how they're looking for jobs and an employer can just say oh if you live here you may not get another job in the next two years three years you understand so they have that kind of um I will I say um orientation yes that's what I think did I think they have that kind of orientation that yes I'm doing you a favor by putting you here so anything I tell you to do you have to do it so the and then the employees also have that fear that oh I should just manage this one I have instead of just leaving so it takes someone who has a lot of courage to say okay I'm leaving this place even if I don't have a job I'll sit at home till I get a better place so that's I think that's the orientation a lot of people have because people are out there looking for jobs and they feel okay if you leave within the next one hour another person is there to replace you that doesn't mean you have to stay at the job when you know that um you're not actually getting your out most of them you're almost bullied sometimes we've heard of of cases where employees have been threatened and they've been beaten by supervisors and bosses just because um the employees feel that um where they are working at that particular time it just be their last moment of hope so that is why we have the courts for people so um I think the the basic thing is just for are we talking about the regular courts yes special courts no we have the national industrial court that deals with cases about employer-employee relationship so it's so wild their power their powers are so wild so they have powers concerning these assaults battery um compensation sexual harassment as I said earlier so anything that concerns employer-employee relationship you take it to the national industrial court and as I said earlier they are so liberal with um um employees because they are basically there for the interest of the employees so but the issue we have in Nigeria today is a lot of people don't want to institute actions against the employer in fact a lot of people don't want to even institute actions for their rights for the enforcement of their rights so let's let's just depart from the employee relationship even just your right as a human being yes people a lot of people don't want to and a lot of people find it hard to you know talk to a lawyer about your rights a lot of people just want to swallow it in and say oh I don't want any problems let me just leave with it so I think the basic thing is for if employees will stand up to your right to say okay this is what I'm supposed to do this is there are a lot of ways to institute illegal actions against these employees these employers and in such situations you realize when two or three employers start doing that employers will take it back sit and want to they will try to um meditate again to know what's going on no but you know like this particular case that I mentioned you have a case where the boy made this complaint and he talked about the fact and we're talking about employees now employers beating up employees and in this particular case he was handed over to the police and the police mal handle him you know in the sense that they use woods you know to hit him and to a point where he had it gone pointed to his head um quite sad but you have also mentioned the fact that we do not have specific laws that the laws that we have just talks about compensation you know salaries and wages contracts and does not necessarily cater for some of these cases issue of battery however it is abuse which at the end of the day you have a common language called you know toxic workplace or you know toxic bosses and supervisors and what have you so it's really really sad we're hoping that beyond may because every may it seems like we get to talk about workers they boy it feels like the workers they's always talked about those in the public sector and maybe the private sector is not even carried on you know carried along in all of this but moving forward now um what would you say would be the way forward for us as a people now following the particular space joining the conversation and reading twitter comments from some like just some people say instead of coming to the internet or coming to twitter that's the micro blogging you know platform and begin to rant why don't you quit do you think that you know quitting a job you know because you are in a toxic workplace or you're in a place where the working conditions are not favorable solves the problem well i don't think it does because that's that's the thing we talk about talking out speaking out so i think um yes if you if you feel the place threatens your life your mental health because a lot of you today we are going into serious depression and that is one area that has been overlooked so i i feel you can quit but that doesn't stop you from speaking out because yes this um the hashtag or the process it started um it was just one person who brought up the conversation others joined and all of that so if those people didn't speak up i don't think we'll be here today having this conversation absolutely so i i think um no matter what even if you quit you should speak up because the next person can still suffer that thing you're suffering so it shouldn't be a case of you just saying you want to stay quiet you just want to quit yes you can move away for your own self for your life but you should also talk about it speak to someone who can help the next person that will be coming after you so so what would be the way forward now i mean we understand that we're human beings for me i feel like um toxic is no place is actually toxic for instance this place is not toxic it can't be toxic on its own if we are not toxic people so when you have toxic people come to a place it becomes toxic and sometimes you have situations when you have the boss i mean when you say the big boss the big boss might just be the big boss doing his things but you also have uh those in in the line of you know duty um because they are toxic it begins to trickle down and it makes every other person very uncomfortable so how how do we now and address it understanding that there are a lot of people involved in causing toxic you also look at government what laws can be put in place you look at uh the employees themselves because you can't take them out of the equation like one would say you have some employees who would frustrate the efforts of the bosses or those on the line so in all of this how do we address the situation so we become we can become you know a better country because if we become a better country then we have a better workforce we have a better you know productivity level becomes you know top notch and everybody's happy okay so i think the way forward for the government we should have specific laws that provide for these things and then as i said before there should be specific agencies that will delete this um companies establishment of companies or whatever and then going down to the workplaces i think there should be an orientation for everybody so that is why the HR persons are important because there should be a kind of a prison of people's mental health because you see a situation whereby an employee can bring his own personal issues to the workplace you know maybe the person has issues at home something frustrating the person and the person brings it down to the office and uses it to frustrate the next person under him or her so in that situation you see that it goes down and then the employees themselves are the ones causing the problem in the workplace so there should be an orientation the government should make specific laws there should be agents enforcement agencies for those people and then the employee the employer should ensure that their workplace is a very conducive conducive place and in the sense that they should make sure no matter how little they should make sure they try and get an HR person they'll be in charge of human welfare in such situation even whether annually or quarterly there should be a kind of appraisal of people's mental health check people speak to them privately know what they're going through because employer employers just feel okay come to the office do my work and go so that's thank you so much mercy indeed it has actually been a very wonderful discuss because an employer's employee they all need to know their rights it is a win-win situation it is about managing relationships at the workplace even beyond the workplace so when you take it home when you come back to the office you ensure that everyone is happy at the end of the day sure yeah mercy agbo has been our guest and she is a lawyer and she has joined us to talk about her terrible bosses and how the employees write in them just how you can actually be better at your workplace it's still a breakfast and plus tv africa will take a quick and all come back we'll be looking at health it's all about killer system stay with us