 I'm not sure about polite name calling. I think we'll leave that by the by. The next item of business is a debate on motion 6186 in the name of Peter Chapman on agriculture. Can I have members who wish to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons now? I call on Peter Chapman to speak to and move the motion. Mr Chapman, eight minutes are thereabouts, please. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I refer members to my register of interests. Over a year ago, I remember reading the Audit Scotland report into the CAP IT system, and I have never read such a damning document in all my years in business as that one. It showed a governance structure riddled with incompetence, a budget while out of control, and no prospect of getting the additional functionality that was promised. At the time, the SNP Government seemed to be absolutely committed to getting this fiasco under control. We had Fergus Ewing in the chamber apologising to farmers and promising that action would be taken. I remember it well, he said, I will get enabooted. Now, Cabinet Secretary, I'm not sure if you have got enabooted, but you are certainly in it. This year's update from Audit Scotland is predictably not much better. The Scottish Government is at risk of £60 million in fines from the EU, but the First Minister does not seem to be overly concerned. Presiding Officer, it is amazing that, after all the careful work that Audit Scotland has put in and its careful calculations, the First Minister thinks that she knows best and she reckons that it probably won't be that much, so why should we get worked up over it? Obviously, I recognised that last year, the Auditor General said that the range of costs would be in the region of £40 million to £125 million, but does he recall that we have made it clear that the actual estimated penalty is so far as we can ascertain that the current time is actually £5 million and therefore the factual position is substantially less bleak than has been painted? The interesting thing is that it came down to £5 million because we have got an extra three months to pay the monies out until the end of October. If that is going to happen this year, then maybe the £60 million will be a different figure again. Audit Scotland has come up with a new report and that is a figure that I can legitimately use today. It is indicative of the shocking complacency that defines the attitude of this Government to what has been the worst cash crisis in a generation for our farmers. The response to that is no doubt that there are many staff working hard to get a system going as soon as possible and that IT experts are now getting the grips with the system. Unfortunately, as reported by Audit Scotland, there is a risk that, as and when contractors leave, there is an inadequate procedure to ensure that knowledge is transferred. Now just another of the risks highlighted by this report. Now, as we speak, out in the local area offices we have teams working overtime and under huge pressure to deliver for our farmers. But whose job is being made impossible by this faulty, overpriced IT system? Fergus Ewing regularly sings their praises and I totally agree. They have been doing their absolute best and have had to endure angry exchanges with farmers who are at their wits end. Please sit down, Mr Wightman. Mr Wightman is asking if he had taken intervention, but he didn't respond, so he can't have two members standing at the same time. Unless you wish to do that. I missed that. Sorry, Presiding Officer. I'm going to carry on. As we speak, in the local area office we have teams working overtime and under huge pressure to deliver to our farmers. Fergus Ewing regularly sings their praises and I totally agree. They have been doing their absolute best and they have had to endure angry exchanges with farmers who are at their wits end because they can't pay their bills. But staff are working with their hands tied behind their backs. In Cabinet Secretary, it is your fault. I know that farmers across Scotland realise that front-line staff are working their socks off every day to ensure that their payments are made as quickly as possible. I have heard that, in some offices, staff are being asked to cancel holidays and take on yet more hours as we rapidly approach the June 30 deadline for payments. I have heard you this time. Yes, indeed. I helped you, Mr Wightman. Thank you, Presiding Officer, for taking intervention. Mr Chapman confirmed whether the £101,000 in 2015 and the £76,452 in 2016 received by Peter Chapman and company was received on time or not. Just to be with me a minute, Mr Chapman, sit down please. It was all about his own opinion. I think that that's a matter of whether you may wish or wish not to respond to, Mr Chapman. It was totally inappropriate and I will not respond to it. Of course, that brings us to another of the serious issues that this report makes clear that still needs further work. The Scottish Government is required by EU regulations to make 95 per cent of payments by the end of June. There is a great deal of uncertainty about whether that can still be achieved or if farmers will be left waiting yet again. Frankly, I don't believe that it can be achieved, but maybe the Cabinet Secretary can reassure us today on this subject or is he intending to ask for another extension to the payment window from the EU. Hopefully, Mr Ewing will be able to answer that question when he speaks today. Even if that can be achieved, it is still the case that farmers have punished far too harshly for minor errors. Let me give one example. A constituent of mine who forgot to attach maps for this year's greening application but who did all the work, had all the acres in place and had all the relevant information is facing a possible £16,000 penalty. What makes the situation worse is that last year a map was not required for this scheme. Assuming that his income is only £12,500, as is the average for 2016, even an SNP minister should be able to see that this leaves him in the red. His whole year's profit gone at a stroke because of one simple mistake. Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary can explain why he can make mistakes but still keep his job, but my constituents mix a minor one like this and can lose all his income. Or is it the case that stronger for Scotland simply means more support for the league of ministers while leaving struggling farmers in the larch? One would think that, after this list of failures, there might be some good to take away from all of this, that the worst is behind us. I am sorry to say that that is not the case. In addition to the issues that are plaguing this system every day, there is a real risk to the payment process from the absence of a back-up system. This was highlighted a year ago by Ireland Scotland and nothing has been done. If a ransomware attack like that which hit our NHS and created havoc around the world just a few weeks ago were to be carried out on the Carpite East system, it would be cataclysmic. I am staggered that the SNP have done nothing at all to put in basic safeguards and I should have to think how we would recover from such an attack. Let's not forget that rural communities will have to go through this fiasco all over again as the system is not expected to be fully compliant until 2018 at the earliest. That means that for nearly half their time in Government, the SNP have failed to get the grips with this issue and, assuming that the system works by 2018, the SNP will have spent five years not delivering on a system for farmers, not delivering vital money on time into the places that need it most. Presiding Officer, this Government has spent its time apologising, explaining away and excusing their failure to work for rural Scotland. The question is, can we ever expect them to take some positive action and get on with finally fixing their mess? I move the motion in my name. Thank you, Mr Chapman. I call on Fergus Ewing, Cabinet Secretary, to speak to mover member 6186.4 for six minutes of their abouts, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's always good to have the opportunity to debate agriculture in this chamber, but it is disappointing that, with so much potential for debate on this topic, the Conservatives have focused narrowly on one specific issue. I recognise absolutely the importance of this issue. There is significant work still required. The response plan published today makes that clear, and, while improvements have been made, resolving the outstanding problems remains my foremost priority. I want to focus my time, however, on the role of agriculture now and in the future, and on its positives. Agriculture plays a crucial role in our rural economy. There are around 52,000 farm holdings covering 5.6 million hectares. Barley is the largest crop, and there are 600,000 breeding cattle and 2.6 million breeding ewes. Since 2007, we have injected over 1,600 million pounds into the rural economy, supporting over 21,000 projects. That, Presiding Officer, is in addition to over £400 million direct annual support to farmers and crofters. Since 2015, we have supported 130 young and new farmers with £7 million in funding. Between 2007 and 2013, an estimated near 32,000 jobs were created, and for every £1 spent, £2.30 was generated. I announced the latest round of food processing and manufacturing grants worth 5.8 million to support butchers, food processors, pie manufacturers and farmers to invest in equipment, products, facilities and jobs all over Scotland. The success of our agricultural sector was demonstrated only this week with the publication of the most recent food and drink export statistics. Those showed that the value of exports has grown by 10 per cent compared to the same period just last year. Those statistics also make plain the importance of membership of the EU single market and, indeed, with the EU being the largest market outwith the UK for Scottish food and drink, accounting for 70 per cent or £1,000 million of our food exports alone. All of that shows that the precarious position that we now find ourselves in, an extreme Brexit that would remove all the benefits that agriculture in Scotland currently enjoys, would have a devastating impact. That is why Scotland must be included in the Brexit negotiations. The reasons are not political, they are practical. We must protect the interests of our agricultural sector. To deliver the best possible environmental and product people on the land, as we debated in respect of crofting just yesterday with people such as Mr Finlay of Light Mind, to produce more food for ourselves and for export abroad and to support development of the sector in the future, we need to maintain our share of funding and access both to people and markets. It is important that we look to the future. Sustainability means growing markets. The recent achievement of BSE's negligible risk status now gives us potential to do that for our quality meat sector. It also means supporting environmental enhancement to date the agri-environment scheme has invested £99 million in more than 1,500 projects covering everything from enhancing biodiversity to protecting the water environment. Farmers are increasingly innovating and collaborating to find their own solutions, such as through monitor farms and co-operatives. Indeed, I visited North Keswick, North of Inverness, Highland Grains just last Friday. Farmers and crofters already play a key role as the custodians of our land. They helped to shape and also to protect the most fundamental and natural asset. In the future, there is more. We all can and should do to achieve the best possible environmental and productivity outcomes. Those are not conflicting aims, but complementary ones. EU funding, or its equivalent, is vital for the continued viability and sustainability of Scottish agriculture. Our landscape, our needs and our priorities are different from the rest of the UK, as evidenced by 85 per cent of our land being less favourable as opposed to only 15 per cent in England. That is especially so for hill farmers, as evidenced by the testimony of many hill farmers and crofters at the two summits that I recently held in Lanarkyn and Dingwall. We must receive a 16.5 per cent share of funding, future funding for agriculture, and we expect the same amount of funding to be available in the future as now. The power to decide what and how to invest funding to achieve sustainable outcomes must rest in Scotland. We will only get agreement on the next steps through discussions based on mutual respect and by taking a new cross-party, Government, four-nation approach to Brexit negotiations. In that objective, to conclude, I undertake to work as I always try to do with all other parties in this Parliament. I move the amendment in my name. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I call on Rhoda Grant to speak to and move amendment 6186.1. Five minutes are thereabouts, Ms Grant. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I appear that there is no end in sight for this fiasco. The Cabinet Secretary and his first days in office said that it would be his top priority. Over a year later, it appears that we are no further forward. There is a number of issues at stake here, the impact on the public purse, the impact on farmers and crofters, and the impact on the rural economy. Can I turn first to our farmers and crofters? They have experienced difficulty in making claims, delays and receiving any money, either substantial payments or loans. It has caused them to postpone future plans for development. All the while, the Scottish Government put out press releases praising their own investment in the rural economy. They are simply adding insult to injury. I have spoken to people who are afraid to claim for a loan as they are not clear under the new system what their entitlement is and they cannot risk an opening. Have somebody's friend calling them when they shouldn't be having their phone on? Sorry, just continue. Spoiling your speech. I've located the culprit. Oh, oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. You went bright red. I thought it was you. You'll just have to stop blushing, Mr Carlaw. Sorry, Ms Grant. On you go. Indeed, interrupting my speech is fine. Giving me the time back would be excellent. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I have spoken to people whose development plans have been badly undermined and have had to shelve plans to make their businesses more viable. That will impact on the rural economy for years to come. The knock-on effects from the fiasco will mean that families are losing their livelihoods and going out of business very briefly. Cabinet Secretary. I'm absolutely aware of the difficulties facing individual farmers and crofters, but would Rhoda Grant at least recognise that the loan schemes that I have instituted and last year, which in November, earlier than the normal payment window of 1 December, at the beginning of November, injected around £275 million into the rural economy to those farmers and crofters, and that was at least a pragmatic and efficient act. Rhoda Grant, nobody is arguing that the loans should not have been paid. Indeed, there was a necessity to be paid to allow people to continue to function. Unfortunately, there weren't the full payment, which means that a lot of people have had to put their plans on a back burner, and those plans were effective in making those businesses carry on. Indeed, businesses that depend on the rural economy have also suffered because of that, because even if they do manage to stay afloat, they are facing hardship for years to come, paying off debts racked up as a result. Even if it were fixed tomorrow, the consequences would last a long time. Money and resource need to be put back in to support farmers and crofters as they try to pick themselves up again. It is vital, but once again, it is public money that is spent in the fally of this mess. The Scottish Government needs to take responsibility for it rather than shrug their teflon shoulders. Fiasco also impacts on the larger rural economy. Those who support farmers and crofters who make improvements to buildings, fences and the like, maintenance and investment projects are the things that have stopped and small businesses are closing because of it. It has already fragile a rural economy. It also delays recovery because those skills are lost in the rural economy. Far from investing in a rural economy, the Scottish Government has let them down. Fergus Ewing might say that the system was not his choice. The purchase of the system happened under Richard Lochhead's tenure. That is correct, but he has had a year to sort it out. He has not even begun to make headway. Let me be very clear that it is not a criticism of the regional office staff who have been working long and hard to try to get payments out and to help claimants. It is a failure of management. The fault ultimately lies with the Scottish Government who sourced the system and employed the contractor. Was due process carried out to make sure that they were up to the task? I have seen the secret report and it does not give me confidence that the system will ever work. I wonder whether it will simply limp on until Brexit renders it redundant. However, it is still costing the public purse. Amendments and changes to the system need to be paid for by the public as the loans required to keep farmers and crofters in business. How long will the European Commission continue to overlook its failures with Brexit? There is no need for them to keep us on side. Penalties will add to the cost of the whole project. At a time of austerity, it seems absolutely counterproductive that the taxpayer should be shelling out paying for this Government's failure. I acknowledge that the Cabinet Secretary today has published the conclusions, the executive summary of the Fajitsu report, but it is time that it is totally open with people to the full extent of this and publish the full report so that everyone can see what has happened. I believe... Cabinet Secretary. I am most grateful. I acknowledge that the reason why we cannot and have not published the full report is commercial confidentiality but also cyber security, and that to do so would risk breaching cyber security. Rhoda Grant. That, to an extent, makes my point, because if the report is so damning that it would call into question cyber security, it explains to people exactly what is happening. I think that we need a new system. I am not reassured that this one will ever work. It was a vanity project and it is now time to admit defeat. Presiding Officer, I move the amendment in my name. Thank you very much, Ms Grant. Now I move to the open debate. Speeches are four minutes, a little leeway if you take interventions. I call Finlay Carson, who is followed by Stuart Stevenson. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I wanted to start, if I may, by setting out a few facts and stats on agriculture in Scotland. Some 80 per cent of Scotland's land mass is under agriculture production, making it the industry, and, I guess, the determinant of the landscape that we see around us. Scotland's farmers, crofters and growers produce output worth around £2.9 billion a year. Around 67,000 people are directly employed in agriculture in Scotland and this represents about 8 per cent of the rural workforce. It means that agriculture is the third-largest employer in rural Scotland after the service and public sectors. It is estimated that a further 1,000 jobs, that is one in 10 of all Scottish jobs, are dependent on agriculture. All of that highlights important role agriculture plays in Scotland's economy, its landscape and its people, and the fantastic job our farming community is making despite this SNP Government. Deputy Presiding Officer, for far too long this Government has been failing our rural communities. I do have a degree of sympathy with the Cabinet Secretary in that I accept the knowledge that Fergus Ewing inherited this dog dinner's mess of an IT system from his predecessor back in 2016. At the time, he said all the right things. He did apologise to the farmers and committed to getting it sorted and at the end of the day that is where we need to get to. However, the Cabinet Secretary has totally failed to manage farmers' expectations leaving them with the distrust of him and his SNP Government due to an uncertainty across the sector. Our farmers and crofters are paying the price for this SNP Government's continued mismanagement of the common agricultural payment system. Last week Audit Scotland published a report looking into the failed system and their findings were not complementary. It found that difficulties encountered in previous years have had a significant impact in the processing of current payments. To date, the programme has not delivered value for money, EU penalties and I quote, of up to £60 million are possible for late payments, their figures not mine and the most damning of all is likely that the rural payment system will not be functioning as anticipated until 2018 at the earliest. A computer system that has cost the Scottish Government £178 million to set up which was 75 per cent over budget requires additional costs to set up, not to mention potential fines and it probably won't work until 2018 or maybe later. Not only have this Government failed to get to grips with the mess, the risk being accused of attempting to cover up any further criticism. The Scottish Government have not released a report by Fujitsu which looked into the IT system claiming that it was commercially sensitive and I'm afraid I don't accept the cyber security excuse. Those MPs who were privileged enough I will. Cabinet Secretary. We saw recently what happened to the NHS when there were breaches in its IT system. The advice that I have had as the Cabinet Secretary for the Rural Economy from the chief officer is that to do so would risk similar cyber security breaches. Does Mr Carson not agree that given that that is the case it would be an act of sheer validity if I were to release information which could threaten to breach the cyber security of our CAP IT system? Mr Carson. Thank you for that. I think that the horse has possibly bolted because as far as I understand the report has been leaked and I don't know what that says about security, whether it's cyber security or not. Indeed, the Scottish Government officials confirmed that the report needed remedial action and that there were system defects. It is totally unacceptable for any department and Government to hide behind commercial sensitivity. However, I urge the Cabinet Secretary in good faith to consider publishing a redacted version of the report. Be transparent, allow proper scrutiny and let's get this computer system into a fit for purpose state. That's what the farming communities of Scotland want and that's what they deserve. Where are we now? As of 22 May 1700, Pillar 2 payments with a total value of £14 million were still outstanding. Indeed, the delay to Pillar 1 payments has increased the risk that the deadline of the end of June will not be met. The fact is that it's not so much just about meeting targets. This is about businesses being able to manage their cash flows. Put simply, it's about farmers' livelihoods. It means that farmers can't pay their debtors on time. It means that the piece of equipment is broken down. It means that they can't pay the staff. It means that they can't make prudent investment in their businesses required to build a sustainable future. Now you must conclude. Thank you very much. I'll give me an extra minute. Stuart Stevenson, followed by Claudia Beamish. Please, Mr Stevenson. I should start by declaring a relevant interest. The National Farmers Union provided me with a leader at no cost. The cover price is £3.50. Thank you very much, National Farmers Union. It helps me to stay in touch and I'll come back to that. I also declare that I've registered agricultural holding of under two hectares from which I've derived no income. The leader helps us all to stay in touch. A different publication Farmers Weekly in its 10th of February edition caught the situation in which farming finds itself in relation to the subject farm payments. The department's record of failure when developing systems to support subsidy payments to farmers does not inspire confidence in its ability to cope with the challenges with Brexit that lie ahead. At the same time, taxpayers continue to be hit in the pocket by financial penalties arising from the Government's failure to deliver the scheme properly. The penalties to which the Farmers Weekly refers are £0.5 billion. The failures that it describes are, of course, the Tory failures of the cat payment system in England. It doesn't let us in Scotland off the hook that they are also in difficulties very far from it. It allows us to compare the Tory rhetoric here with its record south of the border. It's not one that much favours my colleagues on the benches to my left. The chair of the Westminster Public Accounts Committee, chaired by a Labour MP with a Tory MP Richard Bacon as Deputy Chairman, was withering on his party's record there. In fact, Bacon has even written a book called Conundrum on the nature and causes of overspending delays and failures in his Government schemes and the failures of other Governments. In contrast here, we have a Government that is fessed up and has acted upon legitimate concerns. A loan scheme introduced to protect the cash flows for farmers in England, no comparable action. Today's motion asks us to note Audit Scotland's June findings. Let's just do that. It says in the audit report, "...significant changes to leadership brought renewed effort to respond to risks." Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It continues, "...online applications for 2017 opened on time on 15 March and no major system problems were noted in the application period." Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and thank you for all the hard-working staff at ARE. Now this should be news to Mr Chapman or to me. We were both present at a Parliamentarians meeting with NFUS members which took place at Thames to mark 28 April. We both had confirmation from active farmers that the application system was working unusable. It doesn't mean that the whole system is working but the bit that farmers interact with was working. We also heard that farmers had declined and we know as serious pressures there are. I welcome assurance from the UK Government that funding for CAP will continue in 2020, but in the light of withholding over 100 million of convergence funding, I'm a bit skeptical about the outcome. Today's Queen's speech at Westminster says that we hope to maintain the scope of devolved decision-making powers after exit. Intensive discussion consultation with devolved administrations is needed. However, an agricultural bill has been proposed. I'm going to be quite radical. Why don't we have a joint committee between this Parliament and the Parliament down there to look at that particular bill? Let me just say on important point as a computer person on backup systems, Peter was entirely wrong. It's only the heritage, the legacy systems that are not backed up, not the new CAPI system and all the data was confirmed that it would be okay. Let me end with the farming leader July's edition. The one I have here 66 pages, not a single word on CAPI T or any of the failures. Farmers have moved on. Government is moving on with them. Now you must move on Mr Stevenson. Mr Carson, you wish to say something. I'd just like to put on record that I failed to declare that I was a member of the NFU and I wish to do that at this point. Excellent. That's now the record. I call Claudia Beamish to be followed by John Finnie. Mr Beamish, please. What a pity we have had to rightly focus on the CAP system delivery today in the Tory motion and our amendment instead of on the future of agriculture more broadly. It is extraordinary that we're having to debate the CAP delivery system yet again in this chamber. The abject failure to fix so many of these issues has put our farmers under prolonged financial pressure and it is deplorable that they continue to face the price of this Government's mess. In February 2016 a very desperate point for farmers in Scotland, I met with members of NFUS, Forth and Clyde on farmer Crawford John in my region. At that time many spoke of the stress that they were under and raised concerns about the mental health of wellbeing of farmers and their families. At that meeting I heard of seed merchants suffering loss of business and farmers struggling to meet higher purchase payments. Still, this very day Tom French, vice-chair of the Clydesdale NFUS branch has discussed with me the restricted cash flow difficulties and the obvious effects of the supply trade and on farmers' accountancy ability. Farmers in my region have told me extended credit arrangements in the supply chain have contributed to several businesses downsizing and some stopping trading altogether. The Government's CAP failings took a huge toll not just on farmers awaiting payment but on the whole rural economy. Rural representatives well know the variety of factors that have made rural economies more fragile than urban counterparts through the years and this Government imposed disruption had a serious knock-on effect. In March 2016 the then Cabinet Secretary told this chamber are we going to ensure that all the payments get out? Of course we are. Since then the current Cabinet Secretary has repeatedly assured us on behalf of the Scottish Government that and I quote we are fixing it. Here we are today with some I understand locally of the 2015 payments still outstanding and an un-end economical system riddled with problems. It is heavily disappointing can I just continue this point please to learn that the function alright I'll take it at that point yes. Cabinet Secretary I'm extremely grateful to Claudia Beamish for giving me issues a short time can I just point out as a matter of fact that we have actually completed 99.9% of the pillar 1 payments from last year Ms Beamish. The Cabinet Secretary makes that point that's no comfort to my constituents. It is heavily disappointing to learn that the functionality of the process of the pillar 2 claims had to be deprioritised in favour of pillar 1 important as it is furthermore the integration of the remaining pillar 2 schemes with the rural payment system was removed from the programme scope. It is chaos and so discouraging for farmers looking to invest in agri-environment and forestry schemes. I find it concerning that the Scottish Government has still not established a disaster recovery arrangement for the whole of the cap payment process. These systems are at risk and the Scottish Government's reassurances are no comfort without proper testing and plans. We must commend the staff who continue to work through challenging circumstances anyone can empathise with the prospect of facing a day at work ending deadlines and backlogs of work. The level of pressure is enormous and the Audit Scotland further update noted that the time pressure the programme was working under and the decision to make payments quicker had meant some governance practices such as system documentation and quality controls have been sacrificed. Staff should not be working under this kind of pressure. This level is unacceptable and the structures and processes of the work environment should be monitored closely. The cabinet secretary said that he would fix this mess and effective delivery is long overdue. How much longer does rural Scotland have to wait? Thank you. Strict four minutes now, please. John Finnie followed by Mike Rumbles. Mr Finnie. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I have no problem noting the findings of the Audit Scotland report. I think that it accurately reflects the current situation. Much of what we have heard is the appropriate balance from Stuart Stevenson. The IT project in disarray, not that I am accepting the present situation as one of disarray, is not used in the public sector. What is important is the scrutiny that takes place. I would like to, in the very short time, talk about the Rural Economy, Connectivity Committee's scrutiny. There is no doubt that there is a problem being identified. Has it been acknowledged? I heard it acknowledged today and it is acknowledged in the Scottish Government's amendment and previous debates that we have had. Is it the result of neglect? No. Is it the result of a woeful act? No. Is there a lack of oversight on this issue? We will quite clearly audit Scotland and have done in relation to this what they do across the public sector. That is quite rightly vigorously scrutinised what has happened there. Did we get weekly updates on the Rural Economy, Connectivity at the state of payments? We are interested in the mechanisms about the commendable staff effort and I think that it is gratifying to hear a range of members talk about that. The loan scheme, is anything perfect? No, but I think that that was a very positive step. The previous system was not perfect and I dare suggest that future systems will not be perfect either. It is about understanding. I have to say that I do not have sufficient IT knowledge to comment in detail about things, but if an expert tells me that there are issues of security I am inclined to listen. The problem is that the current system of substance subsidies is overly complicated and that has created part of the administrative burden and that is why the development of the IT system was so problematic. I have to say that a lot of this is distracting what the real challenge is to Scottish AgriCulture and it is not the sorting of a computer system it is the long-term implications of Scottish AgriCulture outside the European Union. The UK Government has promised to maintain the current cap funding until 2020, but there are no published plans beyond that. Indeed, there is no guarantee that the IT system that is being debated today will deliver any post-Brexit substance that deviates from the existing cap model. It is Friday by one year since the EU referendum 12 weeks since article 50 was originally triggered and this week saw the start of official negotiations with Europe. What are we going to replace cap with? That needs to be discussed it needs to be debated it needs to be scrutinised and not behind closed doors. I think that there has to be collaborative and working indeed, I believe that there will be collaborative working between Westminster and Holyrood on this. Focusing so heavily on an IT system specifically designed to deliver cap we risk tying ourselves into a light for right replacement of cap and a fail to address the inadequacy and complexities of the existing system. Business as usual for cap will be a missed opportunity, area-based payments and that's the bulk of pillar one continue to reward land ownership rather than sustainable land use that drives up land prices and it's one of the key barriers to further land reform. The Scottish Green Party certainly wants to move forward in the principle of public money for public good. In the short time that's left I want to say that leaving the EU provides an opportunity to simplify the subsidy system and to assure best value for public money, public money for public good and that will not necessarily result in cutting funding to crofters of whom we don't hear terribly much farmers and rural businesses but what's most important is that Scotland's voice is heard in these negotiations. Thank you very much Mr Finlay, I call Mike Rumbles to be followed by Jamie Halcro Johnston. Mr Rumbles, please. 63,000 people are directly employed in agriculture in Scotland but over one million people live and work in rural communities that benefit indirectly from European support for our agricultural industries. I have another figure for you Deputy Presiding Officer. £1 billion. That's the value of EU support that has been due to Scottish farm businesses since the Scottish Government's daybark over basic payments began over two years ago. Now, that is money that those working on farms and crafts across the country plan to use years in advance to employ workers, rent and buy equipment and services and buy seed and feed for the coming season. Despite the Scottish Government's refusal to make a full assessment of the damage to our rural economy we are now starting to see the depth of their catastrophic handling of farm payments. Payments delayed by six months or more. A decrease of 48 per cent of farm incomes. 6,000 farm businesses still to have their payments processed. A third of farms in Scotland operating at a loss and over 100 million pounds of support payments still sitting in the Government's bank account and I see that John Finnie says well nothing's perfect, I've only got another three two minutes, sorry. I have no doubt that the minister inherited a complete mess from his predecessor but I'm also certain that more could have been done over the past year to right those wrongs. In the words of the recent Fujitsu report a report that the minister requested not to be made public but which was covered in the committee many quality assurance and government's practices have been knowingly sacrificed we said that in committee Now this afternoon the Scottish Government have published parts of the Fujitsu report Mr Ewing says in his covering letter that it's a fair and balanced synopsis of the report it is however no such thing Nowhere in that report does it actually say in this report that many quality assurance and governance practices have been knowingly sacrificed if you read this travesty of a synopsis of a report everyone will see that it is not a balanced report and I for one refused the private or secret briefing that Mr Ewing offered to the committee because I think it is wrong this should be in the public domain and it is completely wrong for the government to operate in this closed fashion Over the past two years this government has resided over a systematic and inept mishandling of vital support for a rural economy and shown a complete regard disregard for rural communities When he was first appointed as the minister for rural economy Fergus Ewing told his chamber there must be no repeat of the 2015-16 cab de Bakl and I quote from his speech the farming industry needs to have confidence in the payment timetable in the payment timetable and that we will do what we say there must be no repeat no repeat of the problems that were faced in 2015-16 Can the minister honestly say that he has delivered his promise Can any observer say that the government has delivered on his promises I wonder whether there are farmers and the Scottish taxpayer will agree Millions paid out in fines for payment errors with more fines of up to £60 million on the way for missing this year's deadline for payments A deadline which is only nine days away Thank you very much Mr Rumbles I now call Jimmie Halcro Johnston to be followed by Emma Harper This is Mr Halcro Johnston's first speech in the Scottish Parliament and we welcome you to it Thank you very much Can I declare an interest as a partner in the farming business of Jay Halcro Johnston and Sons as well as the owner of a croft It's with great pride that I made my maiden speech as a member of this Parliament and as a representative of the Highlands and Islands to my own home of Orkney I'm particularly delighted that my parents have been able to make it here today They have experienced, as I'm sure the families of all politicians do the highs and lows of my political involvement just as much as I have and they've always been a very great support to me It was actually my father who inspired me to be interested in politics and while we haven't always agreed politically as a member of the Scottish Constitutional Convention he was part of the process that led to the Scottish Parliament coming into being so proud now to be a member of the chamber that he and others helped bring about I'd also like to pay tribute to my successor on the Highlands and Islands list Douglas Ross, now the MP for Murray His fantastic win there is testament to the hard work he has put in first as a councillor and then as an MSP for that area and it's a clear indication of the esteem in which he is held by local people in Murray I know he'll continue to work hard for them as their MP and I'll avoid using the term rising star and accolade that a few politicians recover from I know we all expect big things of him in the future and I look forward to working with him in my new role Can I also thank David McGill, his team and all those who have helped myself and I'm sure I speak from my colleague Tom Mason as well in making us both feel so welcome today and yesterday While I'm a new member of this Parliament these surroundings are not unfamiliar to me and it's great to see so many familiar faces of MSP and Parliament staff Between 2003 and 2007 I worked as a press officer and advisor to various Conservatives of MSPs Ted Brocklebank, Brian Montieth Bill Aitkin, Mary Scanlon and Jamie McGrigor and I thank them all for the opportunities they gave me back then Can I also congratulate Mary Scanlon on her recent award of a CBE a fitting tribute to her contribution to political life in the Highlands and Islands and to this Parliament and also to Jamie McGrigor who was recently elected as a councillor on Argyll and Bute and will continue to serve his constituents When I last worked here they were very different times for the Scottish Conservatives the only wins we celebrated in Scotland were victories in the annual tug-of-war competition three years of undefeated champions testament to the hard work and dedication put in by our team and that was a team that of course included the late and much missed Alex Johnston Alex and his wife Linda were always with me as a young and candidate standing in his first election and I'm sad that I won't be able to serve here with Alex as my colleague always David McLeachie or David Petrie two other Conservative parliamentarians taken from us too soon The area I now represent the Highlands and Islands is vast the challenges it faces are many and diverse and even within the agricultural sector the needs of someone farming in Shetland or in Orkney can be very different to the needs of someone farming in Murray but a strong agricultural sector is vital for wherever you live in the Highlands and Islands even if someone is not directly involved in the sector they'll likely know somebody who is they're our friends, our family, our neighbours Scotland produces some of the finest produce in the world and the Highlands and Islands produces some of the finest produce in Scotland but that needs to be supported and nurtured it needs the proper transport links to get our food to market it needs producers to receive a fair price for their goods it needs local government and business to support local producers by sourcing and promoting local produce and of course it needs rural payments paid on time the Scottish Government's mismanagement of farm payments has meant real difficulties in the present and concerns for the future it's left some farmers with severe cash flow problems and put financial pressure on the agricultural sector in general the last few years have not been easy but I do believe there's a bright future for our farmers and those who support the sector and that is crucial if we want to attract the next generation to take up the mantle and be the farmers of tomorrow as an MSP I look forward to working with farmers crofters, representative groups producers and stakeholders across the Highlands and Islands over the next few years I'd like to finish on how I hope politics may change in our country last week saw the anniversary of the murder of Joe Cox the sentiments which have come to the fore since her death should be something we can all agree on politicians agree on far more than that in which we disagree I hope over the next few years we'll see a normalising of Scottish politics again where our focus as parliamentarians can be on the needs of our constituents and are on the constitution how working together we can do better for them thank you well said Mr Halcro Johnston I'll teach you about my pen on another occasion signal of one minute to go I call Emma Harper the last speaker in the open debate you will then move to closing speeches thank you before I begin I'd like to remind chamber that I am the PLO to the cabinet secretary for rural economy and connectivity and I'd like to offer congratulations to Jamie Halcro Johnston for his first speech 26 and a half hours since being sworn in according to my partner sitting next to me I welcome the opportunity to discuss the cap futures programme and to acknowledge the difficulties and the challenges that delayed payments have caused the farming industry we can't go back we must go forward and as the First Minister told chamber last week there is not a shred of complacency on the government's part with regards to tackling this issue and ensuring that the system delivers as farmers have a right to expect it to in 2016 a number of countries had problems with making cap payments on time so much so that the European Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development announced an extension to the deadline England went through its troubles with common agricultural policy back in 2006 and 2007 when it moved to a regionalised model according to a recent report by the Public Account Committee examining delivery of the cap in England there are still significant failings in that system the report concludes that EFRA has failed to assess the effect of delayed subsidy payments on farmers and has not done enough to mitigate the implications as noted in Audit Scotland's report the cap futures programme has operated in a challenging external environment as ECU requirements were not fully agreed before the programme needed to start additional system complications were created by decisions taken in the middle of 2014 to accommodate the industry's request to have three payment regions despite failings the cabinet secretary has taken repeated measures to ensure that farmers do not lose out financially application periods have been extended to help maximise the number of farmers applying and given them additional time to do so where it has been determined that meeting targets to pay farmers were not achievable the Scottish Government has taken steps to minimise disruption by making payments at the stages rather than waiting until the system was ready to dispense any money actually I've only got four minutes so I won't take any interventions less complex claims have been dealt with first to speed up the process and the Scottish Government used over £270 million of its own budget to pay farmers as speedily as possible by introducing interest free loan schemes clearly there is a lot more to do but I welcome the fact that the updated report from Audit Scotland recognises a wee bit of the progress that has been made and know that the Scottish Government will now carefully consider the findings in the context of the significant improvement activity that is under way as the cabinet secretary states in his amendment the biggest threat to Scottish agriculture remains the UK's departure from the EU withdrawal from the cap and the loss of membership to the single market as the SNP will also focus on protecting farmers post 2020 I think that is actually one of the big focuses we need to have is that this Government will protect the farmers in Scotland the involvement of representatives from across the UK at Brexit talks is crucial today the newly appointed UK rural affairs secretary Michael Gove was due to chair the EU transition forum where farming ministers from across the UK discussed the future of the industry after Brexit instead he decided not to attend I fully realise the impact that failings in the delivery of cap payments has had on farmers and in my region in the south of Scotland we have the president and vice president of the national farmers union who both farm in Galloway so I would like to end by reassuring the farmers that the Scottish Government is very flat out and that I will be continuing to listen and support the farmers if needed thank you very much Ms Harbour winding up, speeches are calling Jackie Baillie to close for labour four minutes please Ms Baillie thank you very much Presiding Officer and can I start by congratulating Jamie Halcro Johnson on his maiden speech and also acknowledge the contribution of his father to public life he has big shoes to film Presiding Officer I think it is safe to say but always willing to learn so I pay tribute to the NFU Scotland members in my constituency who over the years have tried terribly hard to educate me I now know the difference between tops and yows I have spent time on their farms I have grown to understand just how hard working and creative my local farmers have had to be over the years diversifying what they do challenging the supermarkets when milk prices have been less than the cost of production and working with really tight margins so they have my complete respect and they therefore do not deserve having others fail them and let's be clear this is the third year in a row that the IT system designed to make the payments has been in trouble and whilst the loan scheme put in place is indeed very welcome the reality is that it's only there because of the government's failure now I always listen very carefully to what Fergus Ewing says I know he inherited this mess but he may have a degree of sympathy and as we've already heard from others Fergus Ewing may be a man of few words but he makes them count in May 2016 he said on behalf of the Scottish Government I address three simple words to all farmers and crofters who have suffered as a result we are sorry let me follow that up he said with four further words we are fixing it a direct quote from Fergus Ewing he is first and foremost priority he told us that he would do three things complete the 2015 payments deliver compliance and minimise any financial penalties and to see the 2016 payments placed on a proper footing he was going to oversee and drive forward work to get things back on an even keel sticking with his fondness for brevity let me say three words to the cabinet secretary you have failed we have a follow up report from Audit Scotland which does not make for very positive reading the programme that originally costed £178 million now likely to cost an additional £33 million and with potential fines of £60 million and I think Audit Scotland was being unduly kind when they said to date the programme has not delivered value for money I think that passes as the understatement of the year the independent technical report issued by the government is shrouded in secrecy members of the public audit committee and the rural economy committee were given a private briefing but actually this should be available to the entire parliament to scrutinise and I know the cabinet secretary is trying to make that information available and today sent an email to both committees including that and that is welcome but given that the entire report is in the hands of the herald he should really consider full publication to this parliament I suspect, Presiding Officer, it's a case of too little, too late Can I conclude, Presiding Officer by saying that farmers and crofters have been unserved by this government and their mishandling of the CAPFUTURES IT programme there is a level of incompetence here that is breathtaking and farmers are no clearer about whether payments will arrive when they should in 2017 indeed, across a number of schemes the less favoured area scheme payments of £12 million outstanding the hill sheep scheme £6 million outstanding I could go on but I suspect the Presiding Officer won't let me so let me finish with the SNP do need to get a grip let me leave you with the words of someone I don't often quote we're talking about public money and people's livelihoods we need something far better that was Alex Neil in December 2016 and he was right you know me so well miss Bailey you in cabinet secretary five minutes please I've found this debate interesting difficult at times but interesting I would echo the congratulations to Jamie Halcro Johnston for his excellent dignified maiden speech I'm absolutely certain that he will make his influence felt in this place and beyond and not just in the tug-of-war team I've also listened with care to the contributions of members throughout the chamber and it behoves me to reply to the main points a cognisant of the fact that as Mr Finnie pointed out I will be before the rural committee next week as well responding as is my duty to individual questions and I think I have been as transparent as possible in attending the rural committee and answering its questions so let me first deal with the CAP IT programme and the issues that members have raised about the Audit Scotland and the Fujitsu report first of all I welcome the Audit Scotland report it underlines what I've said on many occasions that we still have work to do I have been transparent about that and I point out information about the precise performance of payments that is made available on a weekly basis to the Parliament and rightly so the Audit General's report does note that significant progress has been made over the past year and I think it is reasonable that I narrate some of that progress in order to have a balanced record there have been, according to the Audit General significant and positive changes to both the leadership and governance of the programme I know that I ordered them the team has changed the governance has changed Secondly, there has been progress as the Audit General recognises on managing the contracts I have met personally with Steve Thorne in person or digitally through video conferences on numerous occasions I believe five occasions resulted in a 4.4 million reduction in costs to the taxpayer Thirdly, the Audit General recognises as I think Stuart Stevenson pointed out first in this debate that there has been increasing success with the online SAF application process that is functioning properly Next, we are making progress on payments as I alluded to in an intervention to Claudia Beamish 59 per cent of BPS 2015 payments made I should explain to any officer that in every year there is a tale of applications which for one reason or another cannot be met this year the tale has been bushier but there are always some applications that cannot be met but that is no excuse for not ensuring that our job is done and whilst Rhoda Grant credited me with Teflon which is an amusing phrase I don't shirk responsibility I intend to see the job through so we are making progress on payments but we are not there yet I also disagree with some parts of the report and I have made that disagreement clear to the Audit General for example on penalties and disallowances the figure of £60 million that is quoted is entirely speculative as the report notes just as the figure of more than double that quoted last year was entirely speculative I don't think I can I'm very sorry because I've got quite a lot to cover I'm very sorry I'll see you in committee next week Members have raised the Fujitsu report and I want to publish it in full I cannot do so because of the advice I've received that to do so with threatened cyber security I did reply and complied in full the approach that was suggested by Jackie Baillie as convener of the Audit Committee who said publish either a redacted version or publish a a summary of its findings and today we published a key finding so I have complied exactly well I'm very sorry I can't it's just time for that I can't reply but I can't because I've got more to cover Actually the cabinet secretary is in his last minute I have complied precisely if the letter from Papal convener is red with exactly what they asked me to do that report however does state that the IT architecture is fundamentally sound there's many more opportunities that we need to discover what happens in the event of a Brexit what about the points that Mr Finnie made that Emma Harper made about the real challenges facing the real economy what about the convergence funds due to Scotland, £190 million not passed on by the UK Government I raised that yesterday with Mr Gove and he is undertaken to reply to me on that but as my time is drawing to an end I apologise that I'm not able to answer all the questions I will do so next week as is my job but just let me say this that we are in the course of fixing it we have made substantial progress the technical experts report says the system is fundamentally sound it delivered 99% plus of the applications last year it proceeded with the applications on time it is proceeding and helping us to make loan payments which members have welcomed we are fixing it but the job is not done yet but I fully intend both to accept my responsibility and to see the job through thank you I now call Alexander Burnett to close for the Conservatives till 5 o'clock please are there abouts thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and can I start by noting in my register of interests around farming and confirm that I do not receive any rural farm payments before I come to today's debate on the failures of the SNP, the Scottish Government and Fergus Ewing surrounding cap payments can I welcome Jamie Halcro Johnston to the chamber and congratulate him on such a fantastic maiden speech he will be a welcome addition in standing up for our rural and remote communities and his presence due to the election of Douglas Ross to Westminster was a clear message of dissatisfaction with the SNP's performance in Murray a fact that must make our former cabinet secretary Richard Lockhead justifiably nervous given today's debate now on cap payments and here we are again a five-year project to cabinet secretaries and we are still no closer to a functioning payment system that summarised Rhoda Grant and Jackie Baillie which is why we will be supporting their amendment in the latest Audit Scotland report its conclusion was that we face risks of European fines as the system is not compliant fines can be administered for failing to make the required payments within set timescales misinterpreting or breaching regulations weaknesses in financial and administrative controls that are considered a risk to EU funds and there is a real risk of this occurring for a system that cost £178 million and managed to be 75% over budget to say that we haven't had value for money would be an understatement of course Audit Scotland had warned the Scottish Government then that this would not deliver value for money and unsurprisingly they refused to listen and as of the latest figures provided on the 9th of June 6,725 applications were still to be processed all of this leads to one thing additional costs we are left with a system that has merely been papered over as the structure of payments collapses underneath it farmers are still left without a significant amount of pillar 2 money from 2015 around £14 million worth is currently sitting in Bute House rather than in the Brock, Barrow or the Borders so whilst my colleague Peter Chapman opened with the Scottish Government is at risk of a £60 million fine in fines from the EU but the First Minister doesn't seem to be overly concerned why because that's enough for over 2,000 teachers for our rural schools which are crying out for staff we also heard today from Stuart Stevenson who as usual was more concerned with Westminster than the matter of hand we heard from Claudia Beamish who raised the important consequentials of his failure from businesses failing to the mental health of farmers a subject not nearly discussed enough and we also heard from Emma Harper who gave an acknowledgement that they will consider the report and I hope they do so soon because at the very earliest it is anticipated that the rural payment system will not be fully operational until 2018 meaning that this time next year we will be realising Mike Rumble's fears and having the same debate again asking the Scottish Government again if they have done any work into a penalties assessment asking the Scottish Government again if a pillar 2 payments have been met asking the Scottish Government again if it's had to paper over cracks again with short-term loans and Finlay Carson summed up the fiasco well our farmers and crofters are paying the price for this SNP's Government continued mismanagement but the problems are not just external as Peter Chapman mentioned we are now at risk of staff burnout staff are being put under enormous pressure for another year for shortcomings that had nothing to do with them the 2016 report found that IT division and programme team do not work as one an area that John Finney touched on administrative problems have also led to some farmers receiving duplicate payments valued at just under £490,000 adding a further administrative cost for recovery Presiding Officer it is clear the SNP simply doesn't care about rural Scotland and it is no wonder that rural Scotland sent them a message earlier this month their safer seats turning blue in order to put some proper pressure on this incompetent Government because when it should have been sorting this mess out its mind was on one thing only furthering their cause of independence so to finish Presiding Officer I would like to note what local farmers asked me about the First Minister they asked what will it take her for to consider her position on the matter and on the eve of the Royal Highland show it is certainly a fair question thank you thank you very much and that concludes our debate on agriculture