 Yn amlwg, Debra, mae'n amlwg, yn gweithio, yn rysg, yn gweithio. Roeddwn i ddweud o unrhyw pethau sy'n cymryd i ddweud o'r dweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud? Roeddwn i ddim yn y ddweud o'r ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud o ddweud? Roeddwn i'n mynd i, roeddan nhw o'r ddweud ac oherwydd gwneud fe fyddai, dwi'n gynghwytoedd gallu cymryd o'r ddweud o bob oedd, dwi'n meddwl ddweud sydd wedi'u cymryd i ddweud? Dw i'n mynd i'r cael ei ddweud sydd gennym i ddim yn polisi i unrhyw o'r dweud ein polisi wedi'i gerder wysig defnyddio chi. Roeddwn i'n gymryd i'n meddwl ar hynny, roeddan nhw'n iaith cymryd i ddweud sydd wedi'u posibu bryd yn ychydig sydd yma. Roedd un i nhw rhan o'r cymdeithas yma yn y llunio. Roedd yma'n gweithio gan ymddangos hwnnw. Roedd yma'n mynd i'r eitem iawn y gallwn ymddangos ar gyfer hynny'n rhan o'r ysgol o'r ysgol yn ymddangos, roedd wrth i'n rhan o'r eitem iawn ymddangos o'r pethau a phryfaf oes, o'r pethau a phryfafaf oes i'r pethau. Roedd yma, rwy'n gweithio i'n rhan o'r eitem iawn yn ymddangos i'r unrhyw o'r cymdeithio Under the type of specific locale I think that the nature of our story is so serious that unless each one of us in this room tonight self identifies as an urban activist we've got a real problem because if you peel away the high level aspirations of the new urban agenda ultimately as I've said before, that's going to have to connect to a real person and a real place somewhere and we're all real people in real places. Felly mae'n grannu'n ei gynhyrchu. Mae'r cyfnodd i gael ffordd i'r ystafell, ond rydym ni'n meddwl i'r FFGN o'r FFGN oedd ymddynt, mae'n eisiau i ddaeth i'r ffordd i'r ffordd i'r ffordd i'r ffordd i'r ffordd. Rhaid i chi'n ffordd. Rhywch i'n gweithio i chi gyd. Rydyn ni'n cael ei ddweud o gweld ychydig? Gwylodau o'ch cyfnodd, ysgolfant i Deborah. Mae'r ydwch yn gweithio i'r maes, Please introduce yourself. I'm Lisa Granger, a citizen and no more, and all I want to know is some of the ways in which you have encouraged people in Durbin to become activists and what sort of results you've had. Take that one then we'll go back to the audience. I think it's important that, again, we personalise that is empowerment around activism because activism is only meaningful if you can self-identify with the cause. And I think one of the big problems that we are having at city levels is that we are not hearing people enough about the issues that are adequately important to them, and if you don't get that connection you are simply not going to act. Currently we are working through the development of Durbin's first resilience strategy felly mae'n gweld gwahod o'r proses gwahodd, a ddaf yn ddechrau'r ddweud cyfle cyflwyno ac mae'r ddau'r ddau yn ychwanegu ac mae'n drwsio i'ch ddweud ar gyfer y cyflwyno a'i ddweud â fwy o ddweud yma'r ddau. Mae'n lefyd o'r ddweud yn oed neu ddweud am yr ardalion oedd y rhesilio o ddweud ar gyfer dyfyn. Mae'n mynd i chi'n helpu ar ddweud arill o ddweud ar gyfer ddweud. Mae'n ddweud ar gyfer ddweud ar gyfer ddweud. Felly, mae'n cael ei chael cyfnod o cyfnodd, mae'n gweithio gydag o'r ffordd i'w rymde i'w rymd. A mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio, y ddechrau hynny na'r ddefnyddio ddweithio'r gwaith ddau yn ddechrau, ond mae pob ddweithio, mae'n rhaid i'r ddaeth ddweithio'n gwaith i'r gwaith rymd i'r cyfnodd yn y ffordd i'r gwaith ymlaen. Yn y ffordd i'r llwyteb, a rhowch i ddiweddol y ddim yn ei wneud cyfnodd yn y gyfnodd. Byddwch yn y cyfnodd ati, rwy'n cyfnodd a'r hwn yn holl ffynol, a'r cyfnodd i'r holl ffynol, ond rwy'n cyfnodd yn ni'n meddwl cyfnodd. Byddwn ar hyn o'r cyfrifio cyfnodd yma, rwy'n cyfrifio'r cyfrifio'r cyfrifio'r cyfrifio, a gydigodd yn ei ffynol gyffredinol. Mae'r newid yw'r ysgol â gweithio gwybod y gallu gweithio bod i ni ddim yn ei wneud ar y cyd-feydd o'r ysgol... ...u gwirio'r cyfeirio i ddweud, i'r gweithio i gweithio, i'r gwybod i'r gweithio'r ysgol... ...i'r gweithio i'r cyflawni, i'n ddechrau'r cyd-feydd yma sy'n ddifrif... ...cymdeithasio'n cyllidebethau yn ysgol, a'n ysgolion at y cyflawni... iawn bod y gweld y disgym Machu pan, a yw heddiw gynhymru yn ddechrau? Fe oedd hynny o hwn yn ddechrau os oedd y cyd-rhywbeth. Mae'r pysig ddweud o'r prrywyddiad, mae'r cyd-rhywbeth fydd yn yngyrch i gyd, ac yn ddiweddio chi'n fath a gennym gwybodaeth. Mae'r gwaith ar gyfer mwynhau er mwynhau. Y fytwpen yw Fhireu Zezachys ar ychydig fydd jagi mewn gwaith oherwydd. Do you Debra, have an example of a group of people or a project that is directly trying to achieve something in an area in Durban? If you could perhaps share that with us. Any, we take a couple more of groups. There's one here. Hi, thank you very much for the talk. Is it Gareth Wolff from the Commonwealth Government Forum? Yn y gallwch chi'n meddwl i'r hyn i ysgolion Y Llywodraeth Dylan, byddwn ni'n sgolion i chi, a'u meddwl yn y same rhywun yn ei wyn, ac mae'r meddwl hi yn ei rai, lle i gael gweithio, a llwyddo hyd i'r gwir. Cyfwisio ar gyfer ei wneud, notation ystafell? Mae'r sgolion i'r holl yn amlio fynd i ymgyrch chi. Mae'r holl ychydig yw ymgyrch yn oeddiol, a'r gofyn Windows. Byddwn i'n gweithio ysglwyddon i'r afrikwadau, mae chi'n diwylliant i'r sfrwysau sy'n gorfod gan yw'r Gweithio Gweithio Llyfrgell i ddylch yn ymddangos yn gweithio'r cyfrifiwyd gyda'r cyflwyngau. Mae'r cyfrifiwyr ar y cyfrifiwyr ysgwrdd wedi'u gweithio gyda'r cyfrifiwyr yn y syniadau sy'n gyfrifiwyr ysgwrdd. Ond y gallwn ysgwrdd wedi'i gwybodaeth yn y ffordd o wneud o gyfrifiwyr newydd i'r cyfrifiwyr ysgwrdd, and under development that we have. So, we have a number of pilot projects around the city where essentially we reforesting key catchment areas and that process is being done in partnership with the local NGO. We were working with local communities, really focusing on the poor and unemployed, largely women and youth who are the most vulnerable in those areas. And they have the opportunity to produce the trees for the reforestation program. They're capable of then trading those trees through tree stores to access things like clothing, building materials and so on. And we've got some great examples where literally one woman has built a six bedroom house out of her tree care credits. She's now sending her young female children to better schools on the basis of this particular work. So, we begin to see in that kind of cycle the beginning of potentially a new sort of economy which is more respectful of the fact that we have a city which is growing up in the middle of one of the 35 global biodiversity hotspots in the world, a city that is plagued by poverty and under development and a new way of managing both of those problems which also increases our adaptive capacity, restores our catchments, our ability to manage water and so on. But again, those kinds of things come out of left field. We need to find ways of scaling those up and mainstream them which again requires new conversations. So, what can be done to raise the profile of local governments? I think already local governments themselves have realised that they need to self-mobilise and we saw that particularly in the build-up to Paris with the formation of new city networks of coming together of old city networks to bring joint power together. So, that's already exciting because cities themselves are mobilising and if you look at the buzz currently, all of those networks are talking about the post-kita fashion period and what we're going to do to implement. The problem is all of that bottom-up mobilisation means nothing if it doesn't connect into that international and global debate and really where we have the gap is between those two. So, it's not about top-down or bottom-up, it's this pincer approach. We need to bring those two elements together and that for me is the important missing piece of our puzzle is how post-kita, we begin to create arenas where national governments and local governments can begin to sit down as equals and begin to talk very practically about what implementing the Paris agreements, the city SDG, the new urban agenda actually mean and those fora are not numerous enough, they are not accessible enough because of regional politics and so on. So, that for me is the missing part because certainly as local governments, we'll keep waving the flag, we'll be activists as we tend to be, but while the national and local are disjunct, we are still going to have problems. So, that for me is the missing piece. Right. We'll take another question there and then I'll abuse Chair's position to come back in with one. Please go ahead, can we have a mic down the front, please? Hi, my name is Murtaza, master student, King's. I just wanted to ask whether private foundations are now best placed actors in achieving success when it comes to disaster preparedness now or is it the state because when it comes to understanding the political dynamics or the terms that each government has, it's not really going towards more of a preparedness notion, so are private foundations more best placed or what do you say? A mixture of those, I don't know. You see, I think it's really, there is no silver bullet any more and so one can't point to a single act and say you're best placed because many of these challenges are so context specific. I think we've got to look at the local need and look at what that need might be, what the recent vulnerabilities are and then look at the players who are willing and able to enter into that space. So, it's a very complex calculus at the local level. We've got to pull in a variety of actors who will have different roles at different timescales and it's working out that complex calculus, which I think is the big challenge. So, I wouldn't say that anyone is particularly well-placed until you assess what the particular challenge is at the local level and then look at what resources you have that you can bring to the party. Thanks. Deborah, you spoke eloquently about needing cities where no one, no space, no natural system is left behind. You live and work in, I think in genico-efficient terms, the most unequal society in the world, which must create hugely powerful kind of exclusionary and divisive dynamics in cities, gating communities, fear, division. What at your level, what at the level of the local administration, what actions do you take to counter that dynamic? I think we've probably got one of the greatest macro-challenges of, I suppose, any urban environment in the world because the cities that we live in were meant to be the ideal apartheid cities where people were excluded from access to various areas. So, we're literally having to change the geography of cities. So, if you look back to South Africa's history, the previous township areas only had one road in. So, if there was a problem, you could bring in armored vehicles, you could shut down access and egress from those areas. So, we ourselves are going through massive infrastructure-building programs to try and change the geography of the city. So, that's one macro-level intervention. But perhaps more nuanced and overlooked are the necessary changes in governance. And I alluded to the fact that we live in a very interesting city in the sense that the central part of the city is something you would all be familiar with. It looks a bit like London or, you know, Brisbane. But if you go into the outer reaches of the city, those are largely rural and they are governed by traditional leadership. And that clash between city hall governance and traditional leadership has really stopped our society coming together in a way that has allowed us to move forward with big visions for the city. And so, what we're doing now is creating the process. And one of those is the resilient strategy process I spoke about, which is welcoming in these alternative voices into a new urban debate, where we acknowledge that no one has the answer. And that, I think, is an important thing to realise about local government. When I first started interacting with local government, the way our city was planned is they looked at what they did the last two or three years and they just projected that forward. We now live in a scenario where history is no longer a good predictor of the future. And so, what we have to do is welcome in many voices to help us reimagine what the city might look like and to give those people a real voice at the table. And that's meaning or means for us that we have to change the pattern of governance and use opportunities to have new conversations about how you manage cities in these unpredictable and uncertain times. Thank you. Let's throw it open again. We've got a number of questions down here. Let's take three and then go back. Emma Cox, PWC. Thank you for a fascinating insight. I think having recently read the new urban agenda, I can understand some of your sentiments that you raised about it. You've talked about different voices. You've talked about local national government bringing different people into progressing the urban challenge. It took me until paragraph 133 of the new urban agenda to see the word business actually mentioned. Would you like to talk a little bit about what you see the role of business can be in helping progress the new urban agenda and how maybe in Durban you're thinking about that? Thanks, Sam, and then the... Yeah, Sam, because there's CKN. Thanks very much, Deborah. Not wanting to lose sight of your bricks and your cement. I'll just refer to the policy agreements and the Paris Agreement, which, success to Paris, depends upon the ratcheting out mechanism to achieve living within just a safety of two degrees, global warming. Our sit is to sort of save the... that can drive the agenda, that can lead nation states who remain the parties in that agreement to achieve that ratcheting out. There are a lot of zero carbon emissions, commitments emerging, but can that turn into reality to bridging the emissions gap that we still see? Thanks, Sam, and then... Hello, Dvindi Grant from Mont McDonald. So, picking up on something you said, how do you see the best way to sort of switch or get local governments to enter the conversation about ecosystem services? Is it valuation, improving technical understanding, or something else? Thanks very much, Joanna. Take those three, Deborah. Sure. So, starting off with the role of business, and I suppose that echoes one of my previous responses, is everyone actually has to be at the table, and we know that it's notoriously difficult, in some particular areas, to begin to draw business into some of these discussions. Certainly, looking at the work that we're doing in Durban, again, hocking back to our work in the resilience space, there's been a very determined effort to begin to draw business into this debate to show the relevance of this debate to business in terms of being able to foresight where the future of the city might be and where the opportunities might lie in this changing space. And I think if we begin to have that conversation, I think there's always a tendency to stereotypically label business as the bad guy, when, in fact, there can be quite an active player if we make sure that the goals we're chasing are, in fact, common and geared around a particular purpose. So, the reforestation program that I spoke about has business inherent as a key component in that, as a way, obviously, to achieve their corporate social responsibility outcomes. So, again, giving people a real purpose, but people want to see practical interventions, and that's the problem. I think the issue with many of these ideas, and it's the problem with the new urban agenda, we've left it at such a high level that people can't relate to them. We've got to pull it down so that people can relate to the reality, they can see the difference, and I think that's really a task is to make explicit not only the role, but the net benefit, and then we found that business becomes a much more engaged conversation list in that particular arena. Are cities the saviours? Are they going to save us from ourselves? Well, it depends, I think. Certainly there's a sense that one of the big global opportunities to bend the curve lies in the city arena, and we've just had the scoping report for the 1.5 report that the IPCC has been invited to do by the UNFCCC, and during the course of that week in conversations, we constantly came back to the role of cities, but the real challenge there is, we know a lot about what's happening in cities, we see cities profiling the action, but the question is what does it add up to? So some of the fundamental science is missing, and this talks to some of the new important partnerships that I think need to emerge between science, both the natural and social sciences and local government, so that our activities can go out to be analysed and come back and be synthesised and help us contribute to that debate, and certainly groups like C40 are already beginning to push those boundaries in order to be able to demonstrate that. So potentially, but at this point we don't really know, and hopefully we can use the platform of the 1.5-degree report to really give us insight into that particular arena. And then a person in the middle who asked a question off to my own heart, how do we get local governments to acknowledge the role of biodiversity and ecosystem services? Well, again, that links to really looking at the development agenda of the city. One has to remember that cities are developmental spaces. That's why we created them in the first place. We settled along a river or a coastline because there was food, there was an opportunity to barter with your neighbour. The inherent heart of what cities do is developmental in nature, and so it's very important that we find the opportunity to lock in some of these alternative discussions around the many roles that cities now have to play in the 21st century into that developmental role. But that requires us to reimagine the developmental role of the city. So cities are no longer about building houses and industries that produce widgets. There are global custodians that could bend the curve on the climate change challenge that become custodians of protecting globally significant biodiversity that are on the edge of the green economy, if you believe in such things. And so I think we've got to re-articulate the role of biodiversity and ecosystem services in that sense is what developmental role does it play. We've certainly gone the route of evaluating those ecosystem services. We're doing some new work with the World Bank on that regard, but it's really been tying those ecosystem services into the risk reduction role, the developmental opportunity associated with having functional ecosystems to guarantee water of appropriate quantity and quality that strikes the right kind of political note. So, you know, as urbanists and as scientists, we have to become a lot more politically savvy and begin to have conversations that can link into the predominant development narrative. Fascinating, thanks. Take some people at the back. Is there anyone at the back with questions? No, we've got one here. And then we'll maybe go to the left at this point and then come back down. Thank you very much. I'm James Alexander from C40 Cities. And we're very proud that you're one of our really active members, so thank you. I wanted to build a bit on your last answer and ask about the commonly there's a view that you can have either protecting the environment or development, but not both. And I want to understand from you what you're doing in Derbent to try and achieve both. What have you done that can try and deliver development and environmental benefits at the same time and make the city more sustainable and resilient, whilst also growing the economy and creating more opportunities? Thank you very much. You may have a question, I think, around here. Hi there, fascinating talk. Sorry, Anders Louensson in the mental writer. I just want to touch a bit on the sense you said before. There's a sense that cities have a global opportunity to bend the curve. And also, can you talk a little bit about the huge impact that has happened with Solstice as well and how we actually live in the 21st century and what impact stuff like smart grid and new energy technologies, what do you call it? Desensualised energy and stuff at what kind of impact that can happen in cities. Thank you. OK, someone wants to come in with the last question. Yeah, thanks, Susanna. Hi, I'm Susanna Fisher from IAED. I wanted to ask a question about timeframes. Thinking with a kind of climate lens, I wondered what opportunities you've had in Derbent to reflect in a longer timeframe the kind of traditional urban planning cycle of two to five years or your planning cycle. If you've been able to think a little bit more about the medium to long term challenges and really how you've managed to do that because I think my kind of experience with other cities or hearing about national governments is a real challenge in being able to think before the short term to ensure that you're not locking in or creating governance problems for the future. Thanks, Susanna. OK, so the question on the link between development and environmental benefits, I think there are a number of answers to that particular question that could be technical, but to me perhaps one of the greatest achievements is anyone who knows of me knows that I'm a deep green activist when it comes to the city. And really what has happened during the course of our post-democratic local government evolution is that we've begun to expand the environmental debate in a way that I alluded to that links into development priorities. So investigating opportunities to create new forms of economy that take communities that are excluded and largely illiterate and draw them into the pool that increase the opportunities for skills, upliftment and business development on the back of environmental management opportunities. And I spoke to the reforestation issue. But then it's also been a process of entering into the political narrative which I think has been important as well. Bringing forward those very practical examples to demonstrate the value of these alternative views. And that's begun a process of changing the institution itself. So I'm a case in point for 22 years. I've headed a department that's dealt with biodiversity and climate change issues. I've just moved into a new position in the city which is looking at sustainability and resilience. So effectively what we're seeing is institutional change which I think is probably one of the most powerful changes that local government acknowledging that these two things are no longer separate. So now I work in the team of the chief strategy officer who's responsible for the long-term development plan of the city, inputting these new ideas. And that to me is the exciting evolution. We've moved beyond the demonstration project of the solar panel or the tree in the forest to a real change in the way that local government is structured. And that change then offers the opportunity to produce new plans, new policies, which will hopefully give us the ability to kind of upscale. And that for me is important. But it's taken 22 years for that maturation of the debate to actually bring those two things together from an institutional point of view. The question around cities bending the curve and new technologies. To be honest, I get really frightened when people give me questions that have technology in it. Because I'm increasingly seeing, particularly in the climate change debate, that given the urgency that we're facing, we seem to be defaulting to technology as the response. There's got to be a smart grid. There's got to be some kind of panel. There's got to be some kind of switch which ultimately we just haven't invented yet. And once we do that, we'll solve it. The fact is, given the problems with intellectual property rights and so on, for many of the cities around the world, technology is simply not the answer. So bear in mind, and I think Andrew alluded to some of the fairly challenging statistics. We're anticipating what another 2.9 billion people to live in cities by 2050. The majority of those are going to be living in cities in Asia and Africa. They look nothing like London. They're going to be small. They're going to be informal. They're going to be off the grid. And so to me, the really exciting response is the ability to bend the curve is to make those cities different. And I suspect while technology may play a role, it's going to be much more about rebuilding social cohesion, getting people to work together to use more sustainable approaches through the use of natural ecosystems, localising food production, predicting catchments. And so I put a caution on that because I do sense a kind of excitement in the room, generating a technology as mentioned. And I think there may be a problem for that, for the new cities of the century, which are simply not going to be in the front line when technology is there. It's going to play an important role. We've seen that through mobile technology in Africa. We've been able to leapfrog the landline, but it is not always going to be the answer. So just a cautionary on that. Time frames, very important, obviously. As a biologist, I was trained to think by John in terms of 100 and 1,000 years, which is very difficult when you're talking to a politician who's thinking in a four to five-year timeline. But there has been a push, and Durban was one of the few cities around the world who began to think about 100-year plans. So beginning to think about that longer term and what that might mean. And I think that's very important. We haven't got it entirely right. But what it does do is it allows us the opportunity to think about the trade-offs that may be lying in wait for us along our development path. Because another thing that frustrates me, and I have not forgiven the first Earth Summit in 1992 for, is this idea that we can have these win-win-win scenarios. I think the reality is around the world that we're facing win-lose scenarios. And often we've got to debate who's going to lose, what are they going to lose, and how do we deal with that loss? And so insights into those trade-offs, I think, are particularly important. And it requires a brave city to think about those longer term processes. But again, that energy to focus on the longer term has come through the process of a city network. One city going ahead, being a champion in that regard, other cities becoming brave on the back of that experience and picking up that particular challenge and moving it forward. And so again, it comes back to what is the role of cities and city networks in a post-Keto phase. We've got to stick together because there are going to be some there who have more access and resources, they can afford to be the champions. But braver, leading, that gives the kind of political capital for others to begin to say, we think we need to ask those longer term questions. So it's an incremental process of building out on good and often sort of individual action from champion cities. Do you have any personal reflection stories? You were describing this as a storytelling exercise. Do you have any personal stories that you can share on that, on that sense of shared experience and how these networks build action? Yeah. I suppose most recently has been, I work with the Durban Adaptation Charter. There was a very real frustration we were experiencing in Durban because we were talking about adaptation action. Everyone else was talking about mitigation. And so the Durban Adaptation Charter became a real platform to begin raising the flag around the importance of adaptation. And we began to realise that we would ourselves have to be the agent of change, the champion city. So through the charter what we've done is, and we're a very big kind of primate city in a typical African sense in the province, we've reached out and formed a compact with our surrounding municipalities that are less resourced, have access to less skills than we might have in order to create a partnership to share our experience and learn from theirs in terms of climate change adaptation. We're also reaching out to Mozambique and local authorities in that particular area to again begin sharing experiences and learnings across that. And that's all been done without national government support. On the back of that success we've gone to national government and said we think this model of a compact which we ultimately learnt from Fort Lauderdale in Florida is useful at a national level. And so national government is now looking to the creation of similar compacts around all of the major metropolitan areas in South Africa to create these kind of partnerships to advance this kind of action. Great, thanks Deborah. We've got another 10 minutes if we want to use it. So who has a burning question or a story to share that I'm being pointed up the back here. So we'll go there first. Thank you very much. My name is Yazan and I come from Nairobi. So I'm really interested in what Diaban has been doing. But my question is how do we expand this knowledge practice and initiative to other African cities who obviously have very low capacity in terms of finance and institutions? We have them. Zoe Spriggin is also from C40 cities. I wanted to ask you Deborah, as you've watched for decades about maybe how cities have changed in the narrative but how optimistic or pessimistic are you that now there's name checking of cities in UN documents and international agreements will mean that nation states really want to hand over money and power to cities particularly maybe in the South African context in the wake of the local elections but also globally as well. And the last question here for this round. Thank you. I'm very inspired by this idea of the... Can you introduce yourself please? Yes. I'm an architect. My name is Cani Ash and I run Little Practise here in London. I'm very inspired by the idea that you discover new voices. And although the technology you feel can be a distraction I just wondered how much the visual has played over the last five or ten years in your thinking on the connectivity that you're talking about, building up the physical infrastructure but also the resilience that through the social networks that you need to change the feeling of power and agency that local people would have. You want to take those Deborah? Sure. If anyone has any last questions I'll take one more round after this. To my comrade from Nairobi, greetings. Yes, that's a huge challenge. How do we get to work together across the African continent? I think there are a number of opportunities. I've already cited the 100 Resilience Cities work that's being done so we have a number of cities in Africa where the model of that particular programme is creating an opportunity for those cities to begin to share their stories and their differences. But it does require that we have those platforms to meet. You will know, like I know, how difficult it is to communicate on our consulate. Very often you can't hear people on the phone line, the Skype links don't work. And so what it does require is structure and resourcing to make available those opportunities for us to talk. And what we've done is we've used parallel opportunities. So we ran, for example, a climate change conference in Durban, and we used that as an opportunity to get the African 100 Resilience Cities together as a sidebar to have a conversation about what was important to us. Because the African urban agenda is very different to everywhere else. But again, it comes back to the fact that that has got to be enabled both by ourselves using our opportunities and our own resources, but also by outside interventions making those opportunities available through programs and so on in order that we can share our stories and learn from those. So it does require direct agency in that regard. How optimistic or cynical am I that nation states are going to see the lights and recognise that power and money should flow to local governments? I think we've got to be realistic, particularly where we are in terms of the global development cycle, that that's not going to be an immediate response from the nation states. I think they're worrying about other things. And I think many nation states are troubled by the rise of powerful city states and powerful mayors. They're seen as potential threats in some parts of the world. So I don't think that's going to happen, but I do think through the consistent mobilisation of local governments by actively reaching out, by knocking against the glass ceiling that's created by national policy, that that's the only way of beginning to bridge that particular gap. There again, of course, there are nations who are very innovative and who are leading on this, and so they set that kind of example that others can follow. But again, there's no silver bullet. There's no easy ask here. It's not like we can produce a recipe and say if we do this suddenly there'll be this great conversion. It's going to take hard work. And that's why I really underscored the fact that there's a great deal of unfinished activism out there. Because all of these important things still need to go those final two, three, four steps of the journey, the need for that activism is not yet complete. So I'm neither cynical nor optimistic, but just know there's a great deal of hard work that lies ahead to move us forward. Just in terms of the question around what role does the visual have in changing the power distribution and the agency, I think that goes back to a realization that particularly having been trained as a scientist and believing in the power of science, I got very frustrated when you go to City Hall and suddenly no one wants to look at your graphs or your maps or anything like that. And in fact, what we've learned is only by a very practical demonstration of change that you capture the mind of leadership. So in many ways the visual is playing a critical role. So we virtually have a production line of experimentation where off the formal local government grid we access some outside resources. We experiment. We see what that produces in terms of outcomes that may be palatable or unpalatable. And then we draw that stuff into the mainstream as the visual representation of what change might look like. Because I think the big challenge for us is we keep talking about resilience cities. We talk about transformed cities, but no one's ever shown me a picture of what that might look like, particularly in Africa where I live and work. And so what we're doing by this process of urban experimentation is literally building out a jigsaw puzzle piece at a time and drawing that into the mainstream and then showing how all of these jigsaw puzzle pieces of urban experimentation begin to link together. And those eventually then create the critical mass that create the institutional change that allows you to drive that narrative into the more powerful parts of the city. So it's a very complex arena of political activity and experimentation and just shared doggedness on some days. But that ability to show is probably one of the most important pieces of linking experimentation to institutional policy change. Thanks, Deborah. I want to come back just as we're closing to Qita. You've been entertainingly tough on the new urban agenda, which is indeed a fairly strikingly turgid document in many ways. But you've also spoken a couple of points about a post Qita or you've talked about what can we do post Qita, which kind of suggests intriguingly that you've not given up on Habitat 3 as a moment of change or as a moment of possibly transformation. So can you just square that a little for me? Where do you see the importance of Qita and the potential? OK, so I suppose going back to that analogy of bricks and cement, at this point I'm more interested in the cement that we can use to pull these bricks together. So we've got in the bag, we've got Qita, or hopefully we'll have Qita unless there's some kind of major evolution there next week. We'll have the new urban agenda, we'll have the SDGs and the Paris Agreement. But we need to find fora where we can bring the different partners together to talk about how these things begin to link in an effective way. And certainly I think the beginning of that conversation of how you pull the SDG, you pull Paris and you pull the new urban agenda. There's an opportunity through work that we hope will get approved at the next panel meeting of the IPCC to have a global conference on cities and climate change science, where in fact we can look at how these different jigsaw puzzle pieces can in fact fit together in the cities of the 21st century because there's no denying, let's not hide from the fact that the climate agenda is the new development agenda. I think Paris really clearly indicated that. And so let's use that momentum to convene people across the practitioner arena, across the scientific arena, across the local government arena to begin to figure out how we build the glue that's going to link these policy pieces together and what does that glue look like? That glue comes in the form of data about what is happening at the local government level. As my colleague from Nairobi said, how do we share these things? We're all doing exciting stuff but half of us don't know about it. How do we collect that? How do we collect it in a way that creates a critical mass that we can begin to analyse it, that we can demonstrate that cities can in fact bend the curve? And by bending the curve, we can then make the clear decisive argument that we can link back to the financing. As the power to bend the curve is in fact in our hands, then we can access the right to the green climate fund and the opportunities that lie there for particular financing. So, I think for me, I haven't given up. What I am seeing in my mind's eye is I've got a basket of jigsaw pieces or bricks that I somehow need to stick together to make a functional wall or an attractive picture out of my jigsaw puzzle pieces. And we've got to create opportunities post Keto to draw all of these stakeholders together, to begin to find the opportunities to link these narratives together into a cohesive whole. The challenge is up to this point we've been so busy chasing each one of these things. So, you do the SDG, you do Paris, you do Keto, that we haven't really had that opportunity to draw those together. It's unfortunate that the new urban agenda didn't take that opportunity. I think there was a ripe moment there, but that hasn't happened. And so, we're never defeated in the trenches. We go on fighting. So, we create further opportunities post Keto to have those conversations. An important one is coming up through the IPCC. Thanks very much, Deborah. I'm getting signals at this point on time. So, I think we need to draw to a close at this point. But many thanks for sharing the stories. I mean, there are many things that I think we can draw from this. The eloquence of your view on activism, the importance of sharing, learning and sharing stories. The potential for cities to lead in the climate space in various ways. But also, I think above all for me, these inspirational examples of what good practice at the local level linking communities and local government can achieve, which is something that we often don't see from other worlds, if you like. And that was, so that was really fantastic. Also this sense of how we combat exclusion, which, you know, there is obviously the risk that this is going to continue to be a driving force in our world. And the role, indeed, that city governments can play in that. So many, many thanks. At this point, I think I would like to start by thanking my IAED colleagues who have organised this. So if we could just have a round for them. If we could be right. Too many to know, but many thanks indeed. And then, particularly to thank Deborah for being our storyteller for this collective. So many thanks again. And thanks to all of you as well. And now we can move for the... Down back to the library. Down back to the library for... For the free finger food. For networking and food. Thank you all very much.