 I am joined by John Blane, Chairman of the Evidence Shareholders Association, but he's also a key member of the Business Matters podcast and we're having Roger Armstrong on from the Evidence Business Matters podcast on Monday after the game with his dad Doug and Doug is a character, so make sure you tune in for that. You really showed people. They're both characters. What's interesting about the Evidence Business Matters podcast is, and particularly John and Roger, is that John's quite positive and Roger's not as positive shall we say? Well I suppose Roger would say he's been by past. Past hurts. So what we're going to talk about is the stadium. So you're going to ask Roger the same question? I'm going to ask Roger the same question. Even though you're getting him on here to talk about football? He's coming on to do the final way, but I'll ask him about the stadium while he's here to get his view on obviously. Like I said, it's international weekend, so everything's going on international wise as we build up. Dan Maes was here last week in the city. He didn't really say much. He was here for a meeting so he was obviously at the live of buildings. And right on the back of that, there was a video that I know you haven't seen, but it was some beauty on Twitter. Some red photos, he was funny. He had gone down to what he thought was Bramley Mordoch, but it wasn't. It was Clarence Doch. And he was made up going, look at Evidence new stadium and all that. A few Evidence fans rightly went back to him and said, yeah, it's much progress as what yours has in the middle of Stanley Park. You know, they're trading the ground for him in 2007 and all of that. We had this two minutes of fun and now he's looked like a beauty because he was giving stick out of the wrong venue. But the stadium, me personally, I thought we would have heard something in this international break because various things are being said and we're moving forward. And I wondered whether the club were waiting until this bit to kind of give us a little bit more information, but nothing's really happened. I'm not saying nothing's happened behind the scenes because obviously it is a hell of a lot. I think a hell of a lot, it's probably going to be on behind the scenes. Are you surprised there's been no official update from the club or not, so to speak? Well, despite the big build-up about being half full, every time we talk about this on business matters, we think the club doesn't say enough. We can all take a view that says, well, don't say things unless they're right or they're real or whatever. And I think the club has always been quite sensitive to going too soon, if you will. But you have to think when's the good time to land good news. And it's when you're not competing with other good news, I suppose. So international breaks, you think they almost become milestones. And I do think they thought there's going to be a website, isn't there, where people can go and ask questions and see all the collateral and all that sort of stuff. And so maybe there was some plan, and certainly that should have been up and running by now, I think, or certainly around now. So had that happened, then maybe there would have been some news coming out. But it's not up yet, is it? I don't think, or if it is up, it's not been. I mean, where do you stand on that? I can understand why they don't want to put stuff out unless there's almost a confirmation that that stuff's OK. The club has to be wary, because obviously we've been down this road before. And I understand everybody who is, we're all in the same thing of like, I remember the King's dog and he remember that. I feel as though there's a lot further down the line on this stadium than we were with anything else. That isn't backed up because nothing else, we haven't seen any images. Let's be honest, that's what we all want to see. Well, let's look at this. I mean, this isn't in the no stuff because I don't think the club's necessarily talking to anyone, really. But what you can do is correlation from what you do talk about and join the gap, join the dots and draw a review. So, to my mind, the last thing we got told formally wasn't it was at the beginning of the, I always say this, don't I? The chief exec saying planning application this year, this year being 2018. We said that about 2017 as well, if you remember. So two consecutive general meetings, the previous chief exec said we'll submit a planning application this year. He might have wrapped it a little bit with we hope or whatever. We certainly set expectation. So I think that's not going to happen. So that's the first thing. I don't think we're going to submit a planning application this year. So then you start sending red flags up, no pun, really. But about, well, does that matter really? Does it matter if we do a planning application like next week or in six months time? So what I've talked about more than once, I think business matters is, well, if you do a right to left plan. And I know I just think we sometimes as a football club to have spoken too often about saying how complex this is, because we all know it is. But let's not say it so often as we make some people think it's not happening because it's too hard. And I think that's where people like Colin Chong and Keith Harris will ffes up and put the world into a better place. Because they have to. So if the stadium opens in August 2022, as we expect or hope, then when does it need to be physically finished at some time before then? OK, so I like May. It's just end of the season. So almost I'm not saying we're going to play there, but you go out of the season knowing that that last game of that season is the last game of Goodison. And then you say, well, OK, how long does the thing take to get built? Now, as far as I understand it, and I was in a shareholders meeting with the club the other week, and the club had been really open to us, but they're not telling us stuff that they're not ready to tell. But certainly in a very broad brush view of the world, I think physically building the stadium is going to take a few years. It can be built physically in under two years. So if you say to yourself, well, it can be built in under two years, putting down there a bit of a crib sheet here, people saying, well, it's going to be ready for May 2022. That means you're just going to start building it by May 2020. May 2020 is quite a long way away. It's still a long way away. So, well, yes, but if you give yourself a fair amount of time and planning, then planning would have to be let's give ourselves a year. This is all broad brush strategy type stuff. So let's submit planning on or before next May or the summer. And you've got almost a year to find out all the planning applications stuff and so on and still build. And that would then say, well, what you have to have done before planning. Well, clearly you need to agree what it's going to look like, how big it's going to be, that old hector. And I still think the club is still working on a number that lots of us will think is quite modest. So 52, not 60, that sort of thing. I do think that's where they're going. It can't be 53. That's where they're going. Hopefully people like Bill can talk it up to 55 or something like that. But again, I think other things that might happen is if we are not confident on the capacity, then we need to get the stadium into a design state where it could be upgraded. Because we all know that Dan Mises said previously it cannot be or it won't be. So maybe we'll hear some different news about that because if I was the football club and saying, I'm about to announce 52, then I need to be able to say, well, what happens if we need more? Is 52 worth it? Yeah, I would think so. Because at the end of the day, Goodison's an old lady, there's going to come a crossover point almost where I would think, where I know people have done skirmongering in the past, but maintaining Goodison might actually cost more than the interest payments on alone. So it's a bit like having an old house and a new one, isn't it? But of course, 52's you aren't sure. You know it's not my answer. No, but even the middle ground for me would be 55. 55, I'd go, I'm disappointed. No, I'm not disappointed. I'm a bit disappointed that it's not more, but I can understand 55. I did some because I'm a sad host sometimes. I did a look at last season. I don't know whether I tweeted this, but it could be new news if I didn't. But the average attendance of our aspirational peer group last season, i.e. the so-called big six, was 58,000. Not the capacity of their stadiums, but actual ticket sold. I know there's some games about whether ticket sold and attendance is the same thing. So let's call it ticket sold. The average ticket sold per Premier League game throughout the whole season amongst those top six was 58,000. So anyone who's listening at average who's thinking, well, we'll have a stadium whose capacity is 6,000 less than that is not necessarily on the same page as we are. But then they've also got greater insight than we have. They'll have done proper analysis. They'll have fancy consultants assessing all these things. Don't need fancy consultants. But the thing I would say, which is the real key, is we'll have a conundrum between, and I'm not necessarily a great believer that we'll still be using the People's Club, but that People's Club thing about growing the youth, making the game affordable, and so on. One thing that will happen undoubtedly over time on a capacity constrained stadium is ticket prices will go up. If they don't go up, i.e. from the football club, they'll go up on resale markets. Because supply of demand is great and we talked about this back in earlier in the year, didn't we, at St Luke's, about keeping demand high. Demand high, capacity low, drives up prices. It's just where the profit lands. That's a very American-based view, though, I think. It is, yeah. I know when Orlando City Fragments Shake were building their stadium, and quite close to Phil Rowlands, it was the owner of Orlando City for the shoulder on, and I was talking to him about it because their capacity is 25,000, and yet they were playing at the time in the Citrus Bowl, and they were getting 44,000. Now, some games they got 63, some games they got 31, but their average was 44,000, and I was like, how can you build a stadium that's 20,000 less than what? You're getting for games, you know, average games, and 40,000 less almost for certain games, you know, fill a bowl and all that that they do, and that was the view. We'll take up the view of, you know, keep them on. It's got to be the hottest ticket in the city. And you drive the prices up. And the prices go up. So you get your income, and you've got less cost, because of the savings money. Clearly, one of the things that impacted on that top six last year was Spurs were playing. Of course, were playing. And I only looked at the league games. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And their average attendance, I think, at Wembley for league games was about 68,000. Oh, OK. So they've already got 6,000 fans more than the new stadium will hold. So they're going to have that demand thing. Demand. So, and their classic southeast thing, they'll just drive up prices. And if you drive up prices and use your phrase of it's the hottest ticket in town, you get more tourists. And the tourist has just been a euphemism for casual fans. People who might come to one game, two games, maybe one game in their whole life, and they'll come down to the stadium on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey. They'll empty the Blee souvenir shop type thing. They'll do the stadium tour thing. They'll watch a game. Then they'll go back to where they live. Which is great. Which is great. Because some people won't like it, and they get that. But we'll all still be there, the ones who would go in every week anyway. But for Everton to grow as a brand, for Everton to grow throughout the world, which is what we want to be. You know, we want to be... It's great going. And I think this has been Everton's problem for a number of years. It's great being in Chile. It's great being where the club with the biggest fan base within five miles of their stadium with Everton won many years on the run. You know, having the hardest concentration of fans. Blah, blah, blah, blah. But that keeps you small. You know, we've laughed at... We've laughed at, you know, Culls FC and all of that. They can afford tourist things. They can afford player wages three times of hours. Exactly. So that's the deep, meaningful business planning you have to do. And if you're the accountant or the finance guru or the man running the spreadsheet type of thing which might be Sasha, I suppose, whatever, you're saying, well, it's going to cost this to build a 52,000 seater stadium. And the revenue with this pricing could be the same as lower pricing in a bigger stadium. So the revenue stays the same and the costs to higher. And why are we doing it? Clearly, the smaller the stadium, the more likely it is to be full. Yeah, but we've got that now. Godderson's full every game. And there's thousands on the way. There's 15,000, isn't there, on the way? I don't know what it is, but it keeps going up all the time. If Godderson isn't sold out, it's because the away fans haven't sold their bit and we can sell that to our own. The issue I've got... They don't sell out now. So we keep pointing to where the red man and the red man. But they're a bigger brand at the moment. But they probably would if it was... Listen. They'd be pushing to take a price. Wherever they are, they are. For us, and this is the thing, because you just mentioned them, Sasha there, he was at... Sasha Ryanseth, was at a Premier League business meeting at Stanford Bridge last week. No business leaders. And he spoke about the stadium. And he said several years to build, which kind of made everyone go like that. But he was... Well, exactly. More than one. It's less than many. And what he said was, and this was the key, which I don't think 52,000 breaches it. And it was, if we want to break into that top six, this is going to build the bridge to that. This is basically going to take us into that top six. Close the gap. 52,000 doesn't close the gap on it. So do you Sherlock on that, yeah? If the football club publicly, through a board member, is talking about, we expect the stadium to close the gap to the so-called Big Six. So what gap is it closing? It's not closing necessarily a capacity of the stadium gap. What it's doing is closing the financial gap. Revenue gap, yeah. Now, don't know what Chelsea are doing, but they're stuck at whatever it is, 42, 43,000, whatever it is now. And whether that owner will change or whether the owner will go back to his 60,000 seats of stadium and all that sort of stuff. We know where Spurs are at that at 62. We know where that shower are. We know where City are. We know where United are. United don't sell out anymore. So if you're the ones making the decisions, you start thinking even these brands which are biggest in the world and all that sort of stuff are selling out. Why is that then? So you've got those challenges to face. But alongside that, the capacity increases are going to cost more. But alongside that you also look at what Barker are doing and what Madrid are doing. Both of those already have much greater capacity than their average attendants. But they're still going to increase the average capacity. They're still going to increase the capacity because they know they have a certain number of games every season which are going to sell out. So we ask ourselves and this is where all the business modelling comes in and all those good things and we should do a shout out to the Eskin a minute. Because you do all those business planning things and you say well okay sure everyone can come up with the are we really going to sell out a wet Tuesday night playing Stoke. Thank God they never come back to the Premier League. If they did. And that's just oh no we wouldn't. Of course not. So the stadium holds 60,000 and you might say you do well if you get 40, 45. Depending on what your season take hold account is and stuff like that and that's where you get into ticket sold versus attendance. But would we sell out a home game against that lot? Man City, Man United, Tottenham, Chelsea the next big thing the big games that matter for whatever you do within the league or the cup or whatever. How do you go FA Cup, semi-final? That sort of thing. But you say to yourself well maybe there's going to be 8, 9, 10 games you're pretty damn nailed on to sell out anyway. So if it's 10 games and you've got 8, 9, 10,000 capacity less than you thought I'm just round all of them. You've got 100,000 less fans and therefore there's lots of revenue and so on. And clearly we all know from a football club perspective if we're successful we'll fill seats. But then you get into and this is where the shout out for Paul comes, go to his blog and have a read where he very objectively gives his views which are hard to dispute because what he does is he wraps up objective science around doing the numbers with those emotional statements. Are we saying we can't sell more season tickets on West Ham? Are we saying that we can't have more walk-up fans and so on and so forth? And you end up with a therefore what is the size of the risk that we would not fill a 60,000 seats of stadium for sufficient times to justify the finances? And the answer all comes back to ticket prices. And what Paul's doing is put relatively modest ticket prices down to prove that the numbers stack up. If we play Stoke and I hope you don't come back later on a Tuesday night and we've got 45,000 season tickets just like for argument's sake then what you do for that game is and listen, I know some people get very precious about it with the season tickets if there's any offers on. Yeah? Once I paid me season ticket I just go to maths, I don't give it a second thought. But what's wrong with that Stoke game making it a quid for kids or a five for kids? Or even if you have to season ticket holders first. You have to move. Or whatever. You go in there for three games a season you've got a ticket Stoke City on a Tuesday night you know, whoever. You've just actually reminded me of something which I'm probably going to hand myself now. I had a really good meeting a couple of weeks back with the club because I saw I think it was on Twitter. Someone was talking about what Alcmar had done with using some behavioural analysis and some insights and big data and all those other tech things that analyzes what would be called a customer base but it's a fan base and therefore they've driven up the number of season tickets and have helped retention and all those such things. So I pinged a note to someone at the club and said well I'm sure we do all this and I wouldn't mind doing an article on it because I do about one blog a year so I must be due one. So when it spoke with one of the data scientists and one of the insight managers and it was really interesting because one of the things that the club perhaps should be telling people is all these fancy things we do behind the scenes. So they've got insight they've got data they can do analytics they can do propensity they can say what if. If we had a step I'm assuming they're doing this by the way if we had to say there were 60,000 what would we have to price it at to make sure it was full and you hope that those numbers then get given to the man running the spreadsheet and you plug the menu and it goes ah well that's too expensive you say not an investment isn't good enough have another go type of thing. So I'm sure they're doing that reocitative work and if they're watching and they're not doing it but that's the point about the stuff going on behind the scenes and the club can't get back on message and say well should we be getting told more and the average fan because I think I'm just the average fan wants to see nice pictures of what it's going to look like to make me feel it's real what I've also said on business matters and I'll say it now is when you get a new project manager on anything the first thing you should do is review what's gone on so far so we do and it's not given the club's message for them but it is in a way we should give a little bit of leeway to Colin Chong while he reviews what's going on and while he reviews what's going on and re-baselines the plan or whatever whatever whatever then that's an excuse if you like which is really a reason for why you don't say something but then they should have a comms plan and I do know they've got a comms plan and that comms plan should come out and if there is a right to left plan which says the stadium will open in 2022 then there's some milestones on it and the one here if we go on then well if we go from the left here there's an AGM in January you've released the date so there's an AGM or general meeting as Colin prefers to call it there's going to be an interesting meeting where is it? is it the 8th? in January where it's become traditionally the time to do it so you'd expect some information then and I think Denise has said because we had the shareholders meeting she's keen to get information out there as soon as possible so we can anticipate the accounts will come out when they're ready not just before the general meeting which is perhaps what the previous chief executive would have done so speak ill of him because he's not here but that general meeting I think will be hopefully and we're going to again the association will try and work with the club to make it as interesting for everyone not just shareholders but for fans as well but you'd like to think the money being placed before then wouldn't you? yeah definitely because then they can give a real good news story well literally I just have uncle Alice you shat there when you're doing the second guessing when you're doing the second guessing thing who are you going to tell first that stuff's going well or you're going to tell the media first or you're going to tell the fans first or you're going to tell the shareholders first or whatever because I like knowing things first I'm going to say shareholders aren't I but they'll have a plan I'm pretty damn sure and if they haven't they should so if you've done the right to left thing that says it could be open in 2022 the left to right says well if we know in January this year this next year that is 2019 that the money's in place whatever that is then we either find out around then whether we're going with the council or not which is a great deal for the city but is it the best deal for Everton but we'll find out and no doubt the rest what's your gut feeling good one I mean time kills deals you've heard me say that before now I thought it was quite interesting that Jo Anderson went to see Mishiri didn't he in the recent past and never said anything afterwards I would be surprised if we didn't go with the council I'd also be surprised if we did show you don't know yeah it's right on the fence because I think the deal itself the council have come forward with again guys things going to listen to some of the archives from business matters we've covered all this and the one with Jo Anderson was really good for example but the thing that if you look at that is the amount of money we're going to get from the council if they do this deal is really good it's a good number it might not be as much as we want but it's a good number but Jo said previously Anthony well if you want more I could perhaps do that anyway maybe you could fund the whole thing I don't know so that's one thing the money is a good thing the terms good the 20 odd years thing and probably the interest rate although it may depends whether you argue whether it's high or low or whatever but it's in the right ballpark as a worse case the issue is all the securitisation isn't it that they want to wrap around it and that's the stuff that Jo needs to get it through cabinet, council whatever so that's the bit that makes me think I wouldn't be surprised if we did it because three or four of the elements are really good so on balance it's a good deal and I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't because of that securitisation thing and what you can't do is restrict yourself for future so it wouldn't at all surprise me if we've gone to some institutions be they investment banks or whatever for the rest of it and then it would be interesting to see what the warrants and all the securitisation looks like because we don't want to be hamstrung going forward that we just can't do anything and that's what we used to have before if you remember we couldn't build bloody retail outlets on the back of the park because someone we had a mortgage with said no you can't and and Michelle is unpicked at all that and he's put us in a good place so I don't think he's going to compromise it going forward no I mean I thought it would be and I've said this many times that it's a really good deal for the city it's a great deal we don't get any money into this city the government have stripped everything back and I'll still empower it but that's another thing but I'd throw any kind of money that comes in is a good thing it'll be sad, tracked and it'll be a real pity for the city if we let bitters be real it and if it gets the veiled it'll be because of that for no other reason that they don't want to see it there's an interesting thing here because we're doing this January, well I am this January thing so let's be hopeful leave that for Roger to talk through sorry guys there's a chart down here that I did for Baz before but in January my hopeful vision is the money's in place everything's going how we're going to submit a plan application this year because we've heard that before so we can hear it again and some form of timeline is exposed to us which says and all things being well we're going to hit 2022 fans even a I don't know will the average fan be too distressed if it's 2023 I'll be disappointed to be honest because again time kills deals I don't see why it wouldn't be done in 2022 though well that's the point because in 2018 that's why we've just done the right to left we think it takes a few years to build we're giving ourselves a year to get planning approved and the money's already in place and let's be honest that planning could be if that's true that planning could be approved everything could put that plan on application in December they could I'm not saying they will obviously because no one's got a clue off the minute I'm going to make an observation about that and I don't think they can okay but I'm going to say alright I'm going to say January Everton put that in four months later it gets approved five months it takes it takes eight weeks to get a normal extension done so say it takes say by May it's approved May or June it's approved Everton could start I'm half full he's two thirds full Everton could start it's all hypothetical but we could start doing stuff before the end of 2019 for all we know an often use phrase when you're doing planning is you know under promise and over deliver and one of the things that hopefully the club's able to do is to say that in this plan which gets us open for August 2022 there's contingency for unful scenes a bit like you know contracted does the wrong thing and it takes three months out to me but at least there's a precedent that we can play somewhere else but who knows when they'll start knocking goodness and down and re-profiling but nice to have to play at Amfield heaven forbid we've been there a long time ago so if you do my half full version which is what you can talk to Roger about no later in the general meeting in 2019 first week of January we're advised that the money is in place or agreements are in place therefore we're confident we'll put a planning application in and then depending on how long that takes as long as we can put a spade in the ground in May 2020 then we'll be home for 2022 now you talk about the bitters they're going to have a real problem generally I think because they're going to have to suspend that rivalry thing because this is great for the city regardless of whether the council fund it or not it's great for the city because we're going to bookend that development opportunity across the water which is going to create countless jobs 15,000 countless jobs people are going to have to get a bit more real about how much money they want for land and create development opportunities and all the things Joe's been talking about pretty much on his own for two years now what that means really is when it comes for planning it's got to become a no brainer hasn't it you've got to think that English heritage they're going to want we want the dock left the way it is and all those sorts of things and then you've got the world heritage people standing behind them nodding but you've also got to say this city's got to grow you talk about central government not helping very much so let's look after ourselves let's build things let's create jobs let's create business opportunity let's create retail outlets let's create housing and the streets and all that sort of thing and this thing is the blue touch paper to make it happen now that means the community's got to want it to happen and the community is the city of Liverpool and Merseyside and no doubt there'll be opinion from people across the water we've got to look at it and all that sort of stuff so we as a football club and as a city have to mobilise all that in a manner that means this never gets anywhere near someone saying no so we need to have a place called start we've got the money give us the application give us the approval and then the overdrive thing is closing that gap with real stuff and that's where whilst I'll be critical of people like Colin using the word complex too much it is complex in the sense that you've got all these plates spinning and you have to make sure that none of them get broken but sometimes you have to say well if I don't just get on with it then it's just a matter of time before one of them breaks which is where the time kills deals thing comes in anything worth doing it's never easy is it if it was easy we'd have done it already so listen it is what it is I just thought we had to have a little chat about this because when I had a stage where like I said I expected to hear something I spoke to people in the summer and it was yeah this is happening we've had that more than once haven't we and again we've talked about it on business matters and we have people who talk to us we talk to people and stuff and this is where you get guys get slapped down is in the know wrong again sort of thing and if that's what someone is just trying to off an opinion the stick they get then what sort of stick might the club get if it gets it totally wrong but you can't keep putting it off no when I think it's important to talk about because for a lot of people and certainly Ped asked me this last week actually another video we were doing he was like in your mind are you like leaving Gullison and I was like no bram ni mor I think will happen I don't have any doubt it will happen but I'm not sitting there going oh we've only got three years left because at the minute without any kind of drawings, designs anything it's just the stick chunk of Gullison is going to stay there no we know but in terms of playing in terms of us going the game for me at the moment even though I do feel as though we will go I do but I don't have any doubt now where I doubted all the other stuff it's still not real because it's just a thing and I think the club for me personally this is just me speaking I think the club have to make this real sooner or later because people will just start to lose interest well we keep saying it whether it's the show association or whether the guy meets and business matters and maybe you do it and the blue room do it and all that sort of stuff we can't have a third consecutive general meeting where we're told something's going to happen and it doesn't we really really can't because it's just nonsense then and we can't go past that general meeting with not knowing so I'd like to think a fabulous reveal in the first week of January so it's always jammed tomorrow isn't it and let's be honest here we're doing a lot of investments in and around and all that will contribute to the community side of it because we have to think about the community we're leaving behind not just the community we're going to and all those sorts of things and you know it all sounds credible if we actually do it and therefore if we actually do this plan in 2022 then lots of what's gone on in the past was a reason for it if we don't do it, it was an excuse and reasons and excuses are like half full and half empty in some respects I think with the fellow we've got to add in the bush it's the same that it's got to happen and he knows it's got to happen successful clubs have big stadiums big managers and players come after that hopefully in our case we've got a big director of football as well and a big owner you talk about his mates and stuff like that whether they want to invest or not but there's plenty of money to be made on that waterfront from the development of our waterfront but if you had a big Alice if I wasn't I'd just be going listen and tell you what and we've said this before not being involved and you know mega font will pay for the stadium because we want the name and nights that kind of thing if one of his 50 or 60 companies will wrap that up in that and you know it's an interesting point and again maybe interesting to ask Roger this because one of the things that most of us would say is whatever our communication style is that the fans me included want more info than the club's prepared to give this time on this subject but once the gun goes off they have to be communicative all the way through and Tottenham have gone into a bunker haven't they because they've been embarrassed and stuff like that and if you look at what Tottenham fans are saying about their own stadium they know they can see it's almost finished but the club as an entity may be spoiling relationships with some for quite a while but it can't be canned in it can't be open and the like and so having walking centres where people can go and ask questions and go and see stuff and so on you know it worked when people at Man City built their academy and look what they've done for the regeneration at the stadium we can and should be able to do better than that definitely and I've what's bears at the camp the 365 days camp all of that stuff have got to be answered and the live of buildings just have someone there filming because you'll see it rising up but I just thought it was interesting that just one or two things like a couple of players went up in the tower and had some shots with that in the background that mice turned up so for me Sasha mentioned it for me it all seems to be the club seems to be packaging probably and hopefully like a reveal video which I think would be fantastic I think of it this is the reveal video this is damn mice talking about it this is fire and this is what we're doing and it comes out with with what the dream is what the because let's be honest we've gone oh yeah we're interested in brand new mo and we've done that and we want to do that but there's never been it wrapped up in in any visual stuff and I think that all that will come and the fun bit going back to your lunatic who went to the wrong dock people like that are living on borrowed time yeah of course because and again Roger you know this is a when not an if so that's my view I will be asking not to the video from Roger might be a little bit more downbeat than what John did because he's a bright man so but that's Doug as well massive thanks to John for talking us through that listen let's hope sooner rather than later we just get the next little thing because things on the pitch are looking up we've been much better this season much better to watch, we've had a couple of really positive results in between with the dodgy one in between against Southampton but we're picking up and that's all we can be polished big thanks to John Blaine for joining us check out the Everton Business Matters podcast it's excellent and it gives you more stuff than that with more lay in it people and me on the business side so if you haven't subscribed please do so and it takes a second if you want more videos get over and join us 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