 So, this is the Music Academy in New Zealand. You know I'm your chair and you're just on National Library. Also from National Library, we have a couple of familiar faces to people who are here. We're here with John McLean from Up The Time. He's from the same industry. We'll be coaching things off with some groups. So, the structure's going to be giving you a bit of a steal on the particular areas of across the publications and so forth to start with. And then we'll get a bit more panel discussion then. And I would encourage anyone in the audience who's involved in music and music culture archiving to feel free to speak up in a panel discussion really. We don't represent the entire spectrum of what's going on in the country. And internationally. So, that will be quite a participatory sort of a session. And also just a quick heads up and believe that this is going to be potentially used for a leasing in Radio New Zealand's Music 101 quickly this weekend. So, we'll pass some questions potentially, but we've got especially like a thing, Hi there. Yeah, I'm Simon Gregor. I'm the Creative Director and Founder of Audio Culture, which is the noisy library of New Zealand music. Anybody that's seen the site will recognise that page. That's our front page. It's an ever-scrolling page with some 550 items on it so far. It's called the Noisy Library of New Zealand Music. We sat around for a few hours trying to work it out, except what we were when we first started looking at the site. And that seemed to be the best description. Russell Brown actually came up with the tag, so we stuck with it. We are a library, but the thing that isn't said there is we're kind of telling the stories of New Zealand music and that's the underlying philosophy of the site. We want to go out and capture stuff which has existed, but hasn't been recorded, or has been recorded and the recording has disappeared, or bring it all together in one place and adding context to the whole story of New Zealand music. We're almost completely funded by New Zealand On Air and we're in partnership with New Zealand On Screen. We're slightly funded as of recently by Recorded Music New Zealand. And we launched with 250 pages. We had 20 pages a month to the site, broken down between what we call People Pages, which is the human resources, if you will, of the site. Scenes, which is a very loose sort of thing that captures everything from venues to scenes to recording studios to all sorts of stuff. And Record Labels. We decided to capture every New Zealand record label that had ever existed. We said five releases, but we're fairly loose on that. And we're about to expand, I think, the multinational record labels as well because the multinationals are kind of important in New Zealand. The site itself is designed, the art director by a guy called Phil Kelly who's a print designer rather than a web designer. And I sat down with him. We worked out what we were trying to do. We were trying to get a fanzine sort of look to audio culture. So, that's why you have the very plain colours, the blocky sort of stuff, and it's more, I suppose, a want of a better phrase. It's kind of rock and roll, and it wasn't supposed to be too complicated and heavily visual. The... It had to be identifiably New Zealand, even though it doesn't say audio culture NZ, we kind of tossed around little bits and pieces to try and get the NZ in there. It has that New Zealand map in the background, and it is identifiably New Zealand, we think. It's also... And we're kind of proud of this. We think it's the world first. We don't think anywhere else in the world anyone has tried to do this. And we can do it in New Zealand because we are a small country and our music industry is... while it's prolific at the moment, it wasn't always so. So, I mean, you couldn't do it in Australia, for example, which is a much bigger country, or the United States, because their industries are so much bigger and they go further back. The question we are asked time and time again when we first started looking at audio culture two or three years ago was why. And for people in the music industry, they understand the why. We all know that it was instinctive, but for a lot of other people, especially some of our funders and things, the why question was something that we had to explain. And as much as anything, I think this picture kind of explains it. Now, that picture is Johnny Devlin. We don't know where. We don't know who took it. And it's in a theatre somewhere in New Zealand in 1959. That picture had never been published before until maybe seven or eight months ago. We found it in someone's scrapbook. Johnny Devlin's scrapbook, actually. And, yeah, we don't know where it came from. He doesn't know where it came from. But New Zealanders all know about Elvis. You can ask a room full of New Zealanders over a certain age who was Elvis Presley, and they'll know. Johnny Devlin, you sit in the room and ask them who Johnny Devlin was, and 80% of them won't know who Johnny Devlin was. So we want to change that. Those in New Zealand are sitting in an audience looking at a singer who was as big as Johnny as Elvis Presley in New Zealand at the time, which is the digital sciences thing we're looking at. There was so much New Zealand stuff which isn't online musically, and we needed to capture that stuff. A lot of early 2000s and late 1990s bands came onto the internet, disappeared, they broke up, GeoCities was their site or whatever, and disappeared. So there's a huge gap out there. You're going to try and find a band like Stella who sold tens of thousands of records in New Zealand, and they don't have a website. So we're trying to rectify that. Analog silences, well, that's kind of about the fact that there's some great books being written and some great journals about New Zealand music, but they tend to be in the basement of libraries around the country, unless you actually want to go and hunt them out. Most books are out of print. We're going to try and drag all that stuff online and say, here it is. And we also figured out that if we, the music community, and my history is in the music industry for more years and a key to remember, if we don't do it ourselves, then no one's going to do it for us. So we had to go out there and do it. We defined popular music as 1926 onwards because the first recordings were made in New Zealand that year. Well, just in 1927, but 2627 was the line. And we're popular music rather than classical music because there was a sound site which covers classical music. So our definition of popular music is kind of everything apart from classical. And there are obviously lines which are very grey in between to music concrete and a lot of things, from scratch, that sort of stuff. We're designed to inform, excite and entertain. It's got to be accessible and it's got to be entertaining for younger people as well who are bought up in a digital world. We don't want to be a dry sort of archive, basically, just throwing things out there and saying, this is documenting it without making it interesting. So to do that, we've both curated it and we've also bought a lot of stuff on board as well to make the pages more interesting. So you've got New Zealand on-screen embeds, YouTube embeds, SoundCloud, Spotify, Rotary New Zealand embeds, all these sort of things to make it work. The Spotify allows, as we're going ahead, allows you to listen to just about every New Zealand record that's ever been released because recorded music in New Zealand are trying to get them all online. So there's no point in going to a page about an artist if you can't listen to their music. That's what we're all about. It is about the music. Context? We're a small country. Everything fits together. It all locks together. So when we first went to New Zealand on-air and tried to get funding, we used this diagram here. Now, right in the middle of that, where the arrow points to is the dance exponents. Now, most people will know who the dance exponents or the exponents are, Jordan and Luck, et cetera. So we started there and we drew out and we said everything is related. That took us about probably half an hour to draw that, that little box, those boxes of things that came out and we realised that we could have gone on for days and it would have gone through and probably it would have touched most people in the New Zealand music industry at some stage. Because it went right back. It went to Mike Chan who was involved with Eldred Stepping which takes you to Zodiac Records which takes you to the Lardidas. It's incredibly complicated. But everything is related in New Zealand. It's a big ball of string. These are the relationships and we thought it was very important to bring up relationships and to establish relationships with a lot of bodies in New Zealand. These are the key relationships we currently have and we have more sort of peripheral ones but several of these are formalised. Rady New Zealand, we have a good relationship with Rady New Zealand whereby we embed and we supply them with images and it's a mutual relationship. National Library have a fantastic relationship with National Library in Alexander Turnbull and they supply us with images and we work with them and we're trying to acquire things for the National Library in Alexander Turnbull, collections and that sort of thing. Regional Libraries, we don't have any formal relationships with Regional Libraries but we have informal relationships so that works very, very well. APRA and Record of Music New Zealand they're both the major industry bodies if you will. APRA represents the songwriters and Record of Music New Zealand represents the record labels and we have formal relationships with both of those two. The record labels themselves we deal with them all the time where I talk to people like Flying None probably daily and they supply us with stuff and we supply them the current Flying None reissues that are happening we're supplying all the photographs and things that are going inside of that. So and that's the wider music community too and that's very informal but we deal with musicians and fans all the time the amount of stuff that comes to us is extraordinary and we're also able to supply things to people, people who your uncle may have died and he was in a band and there's no family photographs so we actively do that sort of thing we want to be part of the community which takes us to where we're going now we're talking to New Zealand Micrographic Society NZMS about the recollect software right now which is a way of advancing our idea that a profile or a page and all your culture is never finished so we want to go out into the community to the small towns to the big cities all throughout the country and say to people give us your stuff because there's so much stuff sitting in garages, sitting in boxes and it's all part of the story, we are a community audio culture is a part of New Zealand's wider music community and it has to reflect so with that in mind and I've been wound up here right now with that in mind we're going to go hopefully next year take it on the road and go from town to town and through the country and sort of stand up and say we're here, give us your stuff and recollect is an incredibly powerful piece of software which allows us to absorb that into audio culture so that's us Do we've got a change over to Simon number two? Ha tamarie my name's Simon you may have seen my talk yesterday about my digitisation to rip it up so I'm going to give you a quick idea an overview of what's come out of that there's been a few more things I've been working on as a result and then take a look at some issues I see around memory institutions and digitisation and preservation which some of you may be interested in I'm not going to talk about audio culture I'm bloody glad it's there and thank you for your hard work and putting it together and I'll leave it to Sholto to talk about dealing with the born digital stuff just to have a chat about analogue things so out of my rip it up digitisation story strangely enough when you get a rich source of primary content stories start to emerge so I'm currently telling three stories based on the work that I've done and the stories these are of three of New Zealand's independent record labels rip it records, Simon's propeller and flying none I turned it around the right way there we go so Ripper Records was one of the first New Zealand post-punk independent record labels started by Auckland Radio DJ Brian Staff Brian ran a popular night time alternative show on 1ZM at the time in which he also played and recorded demos of local bands especially those coming out of the thriving punk scene in 1979 he decided to commit some of these demos to vinyl before they were lost forever the answer was the brilliant compilation AK79 which was the birth of Ripper Records it lasted until 1983 and left an eclectic bunch of records behind including the Swingers smash hit Counting the Beat and a John Lennon cover by current sitting National Party MP Marilyn Waring propeller started life in Auckland in 1980 established by my erstwhile co-panelist Simon to release a single by the features managed to release the first New Zealand song that debuted at number one with the Screaming Mimi's July classical July 1981 classic See Me Go it's also released along with a slew of others it was Blam Blam Blams classic There Is No Depression in New Zealand which became somewhat of an anthem to the anti-tour protestors during the Springbok tour in 1981 Flying None probably needs no introduction really it's currently enjoying a critical and public renaissance aided by the nice re-release programme and association with the famous record label Captured Tracks it also started in 1981 its first release was ambivalence by the pin group which is eminently collectible screen art by Ronnie Van Hout they also released a large number of iconic New Zealand bands The Clean, The Valains, The Chills Straight Jacket Fits to name a few but you probably know that already so much like my rip it up project these three use a combination of Tumblr and Twitter and Facebook pages for all these stories which has added an interesting dynamic so here's some stats there's nothing much you can specifically glean out of any of these they're here really as a point of interest Flying None one was I started first that has more Tumblr followers but Ripper has the most Facebook likes and I haven't dug into any of this because it doesn't really concern me so it's not being done for the hits I'm doing it as I think these are stories that need to be told and I don't want them to be lost so Flying None is probably going to be okay it's got great PR recent sort of resurrection of it it's been good but Ripper and Propeller need their due so Twitter is great but the Facebook has been some interesting interaction here about the spelling mistakes comments from Peter Hoffman from The Tearaways rubbishing one of the rip it up rumors and Dean unfortunately didn't find fame and fortune when he left The Tearaways which was a shame but this is obviously sort of hitting a chord and sorry Simon I'm putting you on which is quite nice so as a memory institution what can you do maybe the question isn't what you can do but what should you been doing because there is after all a mandate for this or specifically in one piece of legislation specifically the government kind of ones are generally too slow and risk averse and lack the resources to do justice to all of the broad range of materials out there let alone to focus on music there's a couple of things that always seem to get in the way from the outside it appears to me there's also a lack of prioritisation around audio material this work is hard it's time consuming and it's expensive but when I look at digitisation programs I see no real focus on much newspapers and photographs this of course is informed by the copyright issue old stuff is simply easier to get online but it seems as though this has become the modus operandi and maybe you're getting a little comfortable and just doing the same old thing and it feels like no one wants to ask the hard questions to fight the battles because pop culture doesn't really kind of get a look in but I know it's hard but it just seems like there are barriers being put up or you're not caring and it's too easy I think to hide behind the copyright issue it's too easy to shift the blame onto someone else so the issue of copyright yeah looms over everything and we can assume that it isn't going to be sorted soon so what can you do it's another Morrissey sorry so copyright will negate wide public access for a lot of things but not all I mean are you out there talking to artists or record labels is there anyone asking for permission or are you just assuming that the answer will be no so you need to be targeting record labels and people like Simon here who have stacks of tapes stashed away slowly oxidising so these are unique documents of our culture and we need to be more proactive in seeking out these fragile items and preserving them hopefully any preservation kind of work going on right now is focusing on old recording tape and CDs even early CDs are at risk as well and these are the format that need rescuing and it's basically a race the past so this highlights another issue I'm not going to read this slide out but it's quite interesting that article from Vox magazine it's well worth the read it would be nice to see what's going on inside your institution I can't see policies, targets progress what are you doing let people know there's some good information around on the National Library website on care and preservation but not a lot of information on actually what you're doing to preserve stuff and what you are preserving I'd like to see the current projects and programs demystified and publicised but it's not just the music ephemera is just as vital in defining a culture posters, flyers, set lists ticket stubs, live photos the stuff's all over the net from memory institutions however the pickings are kind of slim there are archives of gig posters at the Turnbull libraries for example Christchurch have even got theirs up online but there's not a lot around audio culture is your best bet from this stuff but there's not enough out there and available quick check on the National Library site 56 images available for the subject of popular music Tapapa 42 out of how many hundreds of thousands of online images it's not enough and I know there are hundreds of posters for example that could be up so I was recently part of a Facebook discussion with David Swift the former press journalist and drummer for 80s English band the Razor Cuts he's got a whole swagger posters in his house taken up space his solution donate them to an archive of gig posters which is perfect but where is this mythical institution what really hit home though were his last comments does the library archive get exhibited regularly you can't just lock stuff away if you're looking to participate in the culture and contribute show the stuff you have use your exhibition spaces they're being preserved sure but we're missing out on the access so audio culture is doing a great job of making connections and tapping into crowdsourced resources but is this happening at an institutional level harness the passion and dedication of institutional staff across the sector leverage the connections being forged by audio culture and actually collaborate look for sponsorship even put this out there just a second so this may be true but there are so many points of interconnection between music fans and also a desire to help and be involved advertise what you're doing be involved in communities, reach out, mate links collaborate both with producers and across institutions your job is to ensure that as much material as possible is preserved and made available thank you it's like a moment of tension as we brush the DIY archivists off the stage bring on the boys at the institution so Sholto after that publication from who is born digital music and web archivist at the National Library thanks Amy, kia ora everybody the National Library and the Turnbull Library have been collecting digital music for what I'm getting my slide up am I cool, start again we've been collecting digital music since about 2008 at the National Library and the Turnbull Library so I thought I'd do a brief overview and I'll emphasise brief on some of the content we've been collecting in this area also some of the successes we've had and finish up with some of the key challenges that we're facing in digital music archiving so as far as what types of music we're collecting online basically any music that's produced within New Zealand or native contribution by New Zealanders who are both in New Zealand and overseas is in scope for our collecting obviously though this casts quite a wide net and due to limited resources as well as technical and legal restraints our main aim is to collect a representative sample of the type of content that's been produced online by New Zealand musicians and that's just a range of the musicians from all over the globe just to highlight the range of content we're collecting if you can name them all I'll be impressed we started selecting in archiving music websites in 2008 as part of our regular selective web harvesting program and since that period we've managed to select an archive over 1000 sites most of these are then re-harvested on an annual basis to keep up with changing content and also significantly about 20% of these websites are no longer online this to me highlights the ephemeral nature of this type of content and also suggests the value of this collection for future research purposes we've been archiving digital music since 2009 initially our main focus was on collecting full length albums but now we've also diversified into collecting EPs singles mixed tapes and any other content that comes online we have a good look at and decide whether we can collect it we've selected an archive to about 5000 items to date across a wide range of music genres and the content that we tend to prioritise is any content that doesn't have a physical equivalence so it's not released also on vinyl or tape or CD and any limited edition or ephemeral content that appears to be at a higher risk of loss online online music videos is an area we're still cutting our teeth on we started looking at these in 2013 and a archive probably about 300 it's fair to say there's a lot more technical and legal issues around collecting this kind of material and that's something we're currently working through but also because there's such a lot of content being produced on platforms like YouTube and Vimeo for example we've decided to collect certain subject areas and just focus on them and these include live music, festival footage music documentaries and interviews and also tour-related videos so as far as the mechanisms or avenues we have for collecting digital music in 2006 the legal deposit extended to include electronic published documents which help pave the way for us collecting digital music online and this now forms the bulk of our collecting practices about 70% another 20% is on a permissions based process which I'll outline shortly and another 10% is coming in through Creative Commons licensed material so for that content that's out of scope for legal deposit a lot of this content is produced overseas we currently have a permissions process where we get directly in contact with the copyright holders and encourage them to fill in our online permissions form which you can see out there and a part of this is them selecting also the level of access that they'd like us to have on their music currently there's only two options of restricted access meaning that the music can only be streamed from within the library reading rooms or the other extreme is open access where any of the music can be streamed directly from our online catalogue and we're also looking at redesigning these permissions forms at the moment and looking at possibly adding Creative Commons license options into this the permissions process can be quite involved there's a lot of non-response and a lot of backwards and forwards negotiations with labels and producers but despite this we've had relative success in signing up 40 labels and just over 300 independent bands and artists the third mechanism I mentioned was Creative Commons which forms about 10% of the music in our collection this is something we're really keen to see increase and it does seem to be on the increase which is good it makes it a lot easier for us to collect and also when it comes to access it's a lot easier to have the clear guidelines of use and reuse for this content and that's just an example of one of the ways that we're promoting our Creative Commons music through our annual term library mix tape so just to finish up on some of the key challenges that might get us thinking for the panel discussion as I mentioned it's difficult to determine what's in scope for legal deposit this is due to the global nature of the music industry where music's produced in a wider range of countries and on different platforms which blurs the lines of what contents in scope for legal deposit and what we need permission for it's often difficult for us to determine who copyright holders of content are when seeking permissions and getting in touch with them I mentioned there's a high non-response rate and also there's a relative amount of producers who are unaware who actually owns the copyright to the music they've put out there which obviously makes it difficult for us a lot of music's now distributed on overseas platforms Bandcamp's a good example of this and this tends to be governed by their terms and conditions and also foreign copyright laws which we need to get our heads around and try and respect a lot of New Zealand some distributors like Amazon don't allow a digital music distribution outside of their geographical regions which makes it difficult for us collecting this content last one and as far as websites go they're becoming more complex and difficult to harvest there's a lot more third party embedded content things that our harvester can't pick up it's also noticeable that a lot more bands and musicians are moving to social media as their main online presence which leads into should or can we be archiving social media accounts such as Soundcloud Facebook and LASDFM is technical and legal questions around this and also just a general question of how do we promote the value of our music collection and environment where music is really accessible online from multiple platforms Spotify is a good example of this so thanks for listening our final analysis the return of Up The Puncts so more DOA music and having around particular community and geographic regions and that's beautiful that's all good I guess I won't go over too much about what I talked about yesterday with Up The Puncts what I'd like to talk about was where I was hitting towards the end of the talk yesterday and as you'll know the Up The Puncts project is a DOA collaborative community project archiving stuff within the Wellington punk scene has been operating since 2001, I think the first exhibition was 2002 digitised in 2011, we started migrating online and it sort of focuses very much on the contemporary punk scene and trying to draw relations between that and the archive so we're kind of anti-nostalgia very much we're interested in the history of things obviously but I get a bit tired of old punks talking about what it was like back in the day so the engagement is very much in a contemporary scene and creating collaborative spaces and interactions with people and who are producing the music and the gigs and all that sort of stuff can I get this to go? so this is just an example of where in the last year things have been hitting these kind of collaborative movie Up The Puncts television episodes and things like that an exhibition in 2000 and kill the volume so basically it's about interpreting I suppose the messages and stuff in the visual aesthetic of each of these individual bands quite collaborative in how they're scripted and the look of them and they're kind of gaggy and topical and fun to produce and a new sort of direction in which we're hitting in terms of producing scene sort of run-ups so we've just done a big five episode look at a band tour through the South Island that's online now and a look at the Christchurch punk fest which happened in October as a kind of an hour-long episode that sort of just summarises a little stuff and then obviously goes into the archive and will be reproduced and reformatted for different uses further down the line yeah that's enough for me thank you okay so I think what we'll do now for the actually 25 minutes we've got for the panel discussion session I'll kick things off with a question and then see if you guys have any questions that you'd like to ask yourselves or the audience and then we'll start sending the mic out into the audience for questions and comments from you guys as well so my starter question is I think perhaps there's quite a few different definitions of archives at the table so my question would be when you think of a music archive what are you thinking of where do you see your projects and the content that you're generating years to slash decades into the future so if we start with perhaps the most formal archive and go from there right no pressure then this is the effort perpetuity yeah the big part of what our archive means is that it's a preservation focus so anything that's going into our archive is technically going to be there for either we have a really good preservation program that keeps everything running and all the formats stable and migrated if necessary but another thing about an archive is there's no point in having an archive if it's not accessible and that is a key thing that we need to work on at the moment as making the music in our archives a lot more accessible to the public and also I think for us to work a lot more with the DIY type archives and share content a bit more I could adapt my no 2 record collections to the same so the no 2 archives are the same I don't consider what I do an archiving project per se in the traditional archives kind of thing I just wanted to get this out there before it got lost and hopefully it sticks around in an ideal world someone would be doing this and archiving it properly and how we go CR and fully searchable and everything else but what's going to happen in 10 years because I wasn't expecting it to last much more than a few weeks when it started a word archive is a funny one we used to try to consciously distance ourselves from a word archive and we experienced a lot of culture for a variety of reasons some political and some just because it was a little bit scary we're not trying I don't think consciously to say here we are archiving stuff we're trying to tell the stories and preserve the stories but as the process continued we've started with the archiving things like photographs for example 15,000 photographs from New Zealand musicians and New Zealand music scenes and things now on various hard drives so that in itself forms an archive the thing I mentioned before about context means it's on and going all the time so the word archive tends to make for a lot of people it's like a dusty box you put things into and we don't want to do that we want to be something that's alive and continuing as to how we continue I suppose it's down to where the money keys are coming in from the funders and so far they have and hopefully it will get to a stage where we are big enough that we can't hear the switch off but yeah Are you concerned at all about with your practice of embedding material from around the internet how stable those are that? Absolutely YouTube is something we're embed on and we have an on-dote process of checking every single page on our site stuff disappears quite quickly even official things like for example flying numbers down to some of their old videos putting better versions of their videos out so we have to actually go through and sort the videos out so it's something to be very conscious of and especially with some of the slightly more rogue stuff like sounding loud and things that build closer accounts and it's gone we don't embed photographs to start they're all close to by us but yeah it is a problem it's an on-going issue which we don't necessarily have the funds to address all the time though Yeah in terms of the deal with the BUNS archive and where we see ourselves it's pretty much kind of like a shared collective collection slash photo album slash you know storybook or as of various generations through our volunteer BUNS scene um I'd like to say we have a really good use of structure involved in organising and collecting everything but um it's pretty much kind of that hawk at the moment to sort of address um yeah quite happy to get to that open it up Thank you very much for talking today it's very interesting my question is mainly for Sam Brick when you say you want to go out into the community for material um I know it is using my variant at a mainly analogue uh connection um and Damien when would you see the material actually going I know I would I would be asking kindly if any material that you collected if you were considering it for us um rather than um on a hard drive or in an artistic connection somewhere there's um there's no intention on a hard drive if you're getting about it and the whole point of what we've got is taken out there what we get once we've probably curated it a little bit and um filtered what we have to do to share um and checking right sides and stuff is to make sure it's all available that's the whole point of what we're doing with the um the reach out of the community if we don't share what's the point so yeah what's the analogue terms that you're guessing in well is it Simon was talking before Simon was talking before about um storage stuff and there's so much stuff out there posters and all the ephemera all the thousand different kinds of things t-shirts et cetera there is a move of thought to record a music museum right now to have some sort of broad storage facility that needs to be stored properly maybe at some stage in the future I don't know New Zealand music exhibition whether it's traveling or what I don't know there's a lot of rough ideas it kind of has to be done and a lot of the things that we're finding we can scan posters and we can scan pages and all that sort of thing but to see the physical item there's quite a different things if we can work with the museums the libraries take things out and show it to people and in terms of if you were trying to establish regional relationships with regional institutions can you see the situation where you get materials coming in and then you find the proper place to house them sure sure but it's very early days right now when it's when I was trying to get out a little bit about the more collaboration between institutions and sharing and stuff I mean if these are digital things and where they are but they can be linked and it's joining up the institutions and getting that done Question is sort of how much is there and how much access do you think we can do without causing people to get mad so maybe more concrete we'll store everything for free if you want to put it up on the net so that petabytes, gigabits per second free to it we found that the CD if you do it really really well takes about 15 minutes and it's mostly through exercising all the artwork and stuff an LP or a cassette tape including chopping it up into pieces and making it into ID3 tags about an hour if you do it but what's the scale of the New Zealand challenge in terms of how many LP's do you think of as in your purview and how many say CDs and of course there's the bandcams and YouTube's and things but if we just take those two what's the scope of it and if we're put it up what percentage do you think we can put up streaming as opposed to say 30 seconds or something and not make people launch lawyers I don't know the size of the scale but you probably get we've got two record companies left in the world now made you want to be pretty annoying quite quickly but do you know an idea of how big I don't know exactly how many records there are but up until probably about 1980 we didn't produce that many records in New Zealand New Zealand artists didn't talk about much about the Beatles or the Robin Stokes but we had a couple of major in these and a few big companies releasing records and most of the big companies didn't release that much so you really look at 1980 onwards maybe it kind of exploded in terms of numbers I had no idea whatsoever what's interesting in New Zealand as compared to the rest of the world is that the large part of the music industry is independent the record labels are big ones do record stuff of course but right now I'd say 80% of music that comes out in New Zealand is released by small record companies so the pathway towards doing that might be a lot easier in a lot of countries where the majors control the records should we be able to just do it all I mean the majors are another issue to get them to deal with them Yeah they're like lawyers Maybe Shofu could you speak to the scale of what am I called self-published born digital New Zealand music Yeah a big part of what we're collecting is independent music on platforms like Bandcamp for example we collect a lot of early demos and things like that that are sort of published online quite quickly quite quickly there's a year and I'd say at the moment we're archiving just over a a thousand albums a year and not really I'd say that we're collecting probably about half of what's coming out in that area and I guess but it's just getting bigger and bigger and platforms like Bandcamp Soundcloud things like that because they're not actually based in New Zealand they don't fall under our legal deposit law so that makes it another conversation to him on whether we can be collecting that content and then making it accessible so yeah scale is growing especially If we set aside the terms and conditions issue to clarify for legal deposit our mandate if publishers and producers of music are making their music available freely then we can do the same through our archive if they're restricting it then we have to keep it restricted currently so that's a piece of the puzzle Sam with CDs and LPs we're not currently digitising CDs and LPs as they come into the collection. Is there anyone here who can speak to the archive of New Zealand music and their physical collections here? It's pretty much on demand and I've got copyright clearance so I started this It's kind of an on demand thing copyright clearance and we'll do copy CDs and other things and now that I've got the mind I was just thinking about information distribution for the future and I guess this goes beyond just music it's probably books and films and stuff as well and sort of looking at the models that are emerging Alex, Spotify or Netflix or whatever there is a Kindle and what do you think this may be one for Shelton to answer first but it's more generally a wider question to know who's interested in this we think that the future of archives might be there's not only not a physical copy but not a downloadable copy and everything sort of subscription access and controlled by as it is now maybe a multi-national corporation or whatever might be in the future Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question because that's something I think about quite a bit too There is a different move to music shifting to streaming and less downloading and Spotify is definitely made a big difference there also Bandcamp surely releasing a new subscription service where individual bands and artists can create their own subscription within the site and set their own fees so this is technically going to lead to at least people actually downloading discrete albums and units and streaming totally so it does consume me how we're going to go about collecting when there's not a physical unit or an album or such to collect on and that's all just a streaming content there are ways I guess it may move more into what we do with our web harvesting although having said that collecting streaming music on websites is extremely difficult so I really have a good answer for how we're going to deal with it but it's definitely coming and I think that it's something we need to be aware of and look at technical ways so we can do this I mean it's also going to affect the way we describe content and have cataloging records and everything so it's times the changing Bruce, how are you dealing with the stuff that we internet I believe that we release in terms of the amount are you covering all the streams we're trying with YouTube we archive anything from YouTube that's been mentioned on Twitter and it's about two or three terabytes a day so I don't know we've got 50 to 100 million YouTube things but that's sort of our way of doing selecting of YouTube I'm not sure what we're doing with Bankcamp and SoundCloud so I bet we're not doing much very well there there's a lot is distributed through BitTorrent and we're archiving that so then there's a question of how what can we do to try to make that accessible again in some way so that's a little tricky we're still trying to figure that out listening rooms we'd like to do short clips at least and we're doing a lot to try to match them to things like YouTube Amazon Spotify so people can get a satisfying experience all 78 seem to be free game LPs I don't know maybe there might be a line that if things never made it on the CD and they were from the LP era sort of from the 80s or before something that might be okay but we're still just starting in on this I think you're doing the right thing which is work within the communities so it doesn't feel like somebody else coming from outside some multinational corporation or even some big bad library hey they got a lot of money I suffered from my music but sort of work within the communities to see if you can find something that makes sense within them to go and not only preserve the stuff but make it accessible so we're in early stages on music and we'd love to work with the guys we have about 600 we've just got a question back here at least you forgot my question actually before my question I've got some observations I've got a public library card and that means that I can get things at home that the libraries pay for it seems pretty weird that I can't get a natural library reading room card that I can use in my living room and my bedroom so that's a challenge trivial I've just got to fly the moles to the street can you fix that and an observation 1500 photos on a hard drive without any context is not really acceptable 1500 photos on the web without any context is cool so we've got to fix that as well context is overrated so that comes to my question I think overlooking digital music distribution which is a problem, a challenge but that's for our children to work out but I think there's a real problem that we don't actually know the quantum of the published New Zealand output we don't know it seems how many records CDs, cassettes, 78s have been published we don't have a pie chart to tell us how many of those have been digitised we don't know how many are in the National Bibliography there's a real problem, I hear rumours that there's no books in the National Library's basement but the real problem is how big is this problem, we don't know that and if it's not read by there's cletions around the country but we don't actually know how big the problem is anyone in the panel or the audience want to speak to that I think that Record of New Zealand has been a list of every record ever released in New Zealand, they've actually worked that out not yet but it should be there's also a book just for the record which lists every New Zealand final release it should be and it will be it's currently being rewired at the moment and about to go online so yeah that list does exist and I think that I thought I'd go back to the previous question was the thing we're losing with streaming, especially streaming legacy releases is the artwork now one of the things that I think that the internet archive is doing is capturing the artwork as you go through and digitise things but when you look at something if it's gone straight to Spotify some long lost albums upon Spotify the artwork has lost forever and the artwork has been part of what the record actually is especially in the days of LPs and for a lot of CDs as well so it's fine to have the music there it's fantastic to have the music available but also in the context of how it can arrive to us if it's gone so something that scares me a little bit Kenora I'd like to applaud the initiatives you guys are all involved with as a engineer and producer of some of your stuff I think it's great and it's really good to see so I thought I'd just use a couple of my bits of some items I have as case study perhaps I want to allude to the sense of competition I feel around something archive if I have some live cassettes of stuff I mixed who do I give it to how do I trust that on behalf of the band who actually have the property right perhaps or the record companies that sign them up you know so I just I think this is a seed for some other discussions to be had between archives how best to service which is what I was hearing from Simon you know how to really collectively come up with solutions for everybody to work in their own little pockets but also to be collectively you know saving labour not going to two different places that sort of thing so for example so I have live tapes I have say test pressings might be quite collectible of stuff because we used to be really sensitive about that when we produced records there was only one pressing plant we had to fly down to Wellington we had to really coach the engineer who would bug her off for a cup of tea at 10.30 to do his best job that sort of thing you know so I mean I'm keen to sort of find out a little bit of where someone like me can deposit stuff and I trust you all but I clearly want it for the best results a bit like the one who said you know I can give it give these posters but is there going to be access I know everybody's thinking it but there's pretty soon there's some collaborative discussions around that area thanks you've come into that I agree with it thank you I totally agree as well but there isn't as much coordination as there should be between the different times we all have different things we can offer obviously the National Library the Turnwall Library are experts in preserving content and that's a big part of what we do and that's within our mandate so a lot of what you're talking about I'm sure that we'd be happy to receive that type of content having said that we don't want to be a bully organisation where we're preventing content from other places me personally my main concern is that it's preserved indefinitely and that it's available to as many people as possible so we can work together and make sure that content is being unearthed and it's being made available to the public and it's being preserved it's got to be a good thing so yeah I agree I'm going to take a prison just privilege for the last question before we wrap up for lunch I don't think we really got into some issues around that Simon brought up in your talk yesterday around actively ignoring copyright issues and the tension that places on the relationship between DIY projects and institutions but we might have to leave that because the question I want to ask is around what we need to do outside speakers in the idea of community so how you find Simon perhaps how community engagement has built around your culture John your project's been going a lot longer what you've noticed about community engagement over depth and time and also what elements of music community can we also be trying to collect and preserve and make accessible beyond music and artwork well from day one with audio culture we've always wanted to engage the community obviously it's a crucial part of what we're doing and it's the centre of what we're doing and it's all very well for us to put the site up online and say there we go but at least we get people coming back to us and interacting and engaging with the sites so social media is obviously going to be a big part and our Facebook page has been very important to what we feed but the Facebook page in particular has been quite interesting because a lot of the older musicians and the younger musicians and people who went to the gigs have all started commenting or leaving stuff there and we realised very very early on that we had to capture that because those experiences are as important as the record covers and as important as any else we've put up there so one of the reasons we're moving towards the spherical exit right now is to try and harvest some of the stuff so we can keep it forever for example when MySex played in Wellington in 1980 with Rob Moldoon we put a picture of Rob Moldoon with MySex the guy who was with Rob Moldoon wrote Rob Moldoon's experiences in 1984 posted on our Facebook page so we had to find a way of extracting that and putting it into the larger story and it's been a kind of tricky process and the obvious issues you have about leaving on Facebook is somehow Facebook has some sort of territorial claim to it and we don't want that, we want to make sure it belongs to the people of community for what we're working and it's it was important to us to capture that so we'll be going Yeah, in terms of the ApplePunks project it's obviously a lot more focus geographically through a sort of 35 years through the ongoing ones I'm seeing so there's an audience engagement that's going on in the contemporary scene and then these successive generations social media has become this integral and getting a lot of that material out there and people commenting on it it's been a lot of, I suppose things to be concerned about pulling stuff from people's physical photo albums that we have consent to put up and the kind of commentary and discussion that goes on and being aware of people who can be a bit nasty behind things like that and I'm wanting to this way further discussion or contributions in terms of I'm wanting to this the National Library but a lot of it, a reason why ApplePunks decided to go tinge it all online a few years ago was that the material was submitted into the National Library after the 2003 exhibition but it just basically disappeared into a research box somewhere on the archives there so again there was a system to make it a lot more accessible again as a DIY project so that takes us to lunch thank you to all our panellists and the audience who participated I'm sure if you've got any questions or follow-ups all our panel members are friendly and approachable lunch and the afternoon sessions if they're sticking around use the social media back channels as well and if you feel like there's anyone that you want to connect with out of this conversation you can't find them then I'm excited to find them and I'll see if I can help you out as well so let's keep the conversation continuing and connecting