 Ms. Emily Payton's campaign collaborator and a admirer and supporter of Trevor for Vermont, Trevor Barlow. And I'm going to pose a few questions to these candidates who are being excluded from the debate. Emily Payton qualified for the election to be a candidate with the Liberty Union party and Trevor Barlow qualified to be a candidate with an independent signature campaign. So he's an independent, both of whom are legitimate candidates for governor of Vermont. So Emily, how do you feel about being excluded from the debates by the powers to be in the media? Well, I've been very frustrated and frustrated on behalf of the people because I know that the people are yearning for a new path, an alternative. And they really don't realize how redundant the system is of keeping the two parties in control. So I've been alternatively angry. I've been alternatively, let's make fun of it. And I'm happy to be here with Trevor because I just got a chance to speak with John Margolis, who's written very disparagingly about me through this is the fourth cycle. And Trevor really shows me the benefit of having a non-confrontational approach. And I somehow approached him just now and said to him, I have a profound platform. He said that I have one issue candidate. I said, I have a profound platform and people really respond to it. And I wondered if you would like to get together and perhaps after the election. And when I approached him from a likability place, he seemed willing to get together and talk to me as ultimately qualified candidate with particularly useful ideas. So. So Trevor, how do you feel about being excluded from the debates? For me, I look at my perception of Vermont. And the Vermont I grew up in, which was one where I was always taught because of our rural nature, that there were these amazing people that were kind of hidden in the woods. That you should always be respectful of anyone you've come across walking down the street because some of the more accomplished people you'll meet are some of the more unassuming figures along the street. And so I, having grown up here, adopted that credo as part of my lifestyle with regards to just not that I haven't always had respect for anyone I meet on a human level, but just I never underestimate anyone I meet because we all have this unique, wonderful story and experience based on the sheer time, space continuum. But there are some of us who choose unique paths, but it doesn't make us any less accomplished with regards to our benefits to society. And so with regards to being excluded, I feel like I personally have had a life experience to date that has been a mix of non-mainstream activities as well as mainstream activities because I have a thirst for learning about how our world works and always asking why. So that to me with regards to being excluded in a culture that raised me, I feel like I'm excluded from my home to some extent that I have this feeling that the place that I grew up in and raised me to be a functioning, successful human being is now telling me that my ideas are not worth enough or worthy enough of being shared publicly. May I add a point to this of being a woman has been all along that we want you to be weak and sexual and sensual rather than strong with integrity and with intelligence. So this exclusion is sort of the last high wall in a lot of society's exclusion. And again, there's that feeling that I have so much to offer and so much for the good of all and a struggle to share it because of this wall of exclusion. Yeah, I think I would like to just follow along Emily's line there with regards to a statement having met all of the different candidates out on the campaign trail and got to know them as human beings and not as these media sound bites that can represent currently is that one, there are some amazingly valid ideas that have wonderful modern application, I'll say. And then two is the fact that I think independence or people who are not part of either parties tend to get looked at as outsiders or whiners. That you're just there to make noise and cry for a minority interest. And I don't think that's true whatsoever. I think we are involved in the process because we are people of action who know that you need to risk getting out there and sharing your opinions in order to affect change, positive change in our society. And so even though we're talking about the fact that we're disappointed or whatever part of the emotional spectrum we're experiencing with regards to our exclusion from the general conversation or I would say the greater conversation, we're not whining. We're actively involved. We've put ourselves out there publicly because we care that much about the state and about a process that we see is not adequately representing the people of the state of Vermont. Right, we're essentially looking to help reinvent the wheel because we hear and we see that the current system is not serving the good of all. So tell me something, Trevor, about the better world that you know in your heart as possible, especially if you were in a position to have the bully pulpit of the governorship and the opportunity for a budget and those things. Thank you, wonderful question. I'd like to start out with saying that I feel privileged to be able to recognize my own privilege being a white male in a predominantly white state. And even with the recognition of all that privilege, I have a hard time living here. And once again, I'm not whining. For me, that is recognition that if it is this difficult for me to be in this state, how difficult is it for those who are much less privileged and who have less access to opportunity than myself? It's heartbreaking to me. So with regards to what I would do in effecting change and the good in the world, I would not be involved. If you're a pessimist, you do not run for public office because when you run for public office, you're exposed to all these things, not only about your society around you, but about yourself that you might not have known because you come into contact with people that you might not see every day, that you might not choose to interact with every day. And so as far as the opportunity to run for this office and what I would do, it's because I have a generally positive view of Vermonters. I must admit, being involved in the political process, I have a somewhat more negative view of our politics than I had previously, having met a lot of representatives because I think there's a certain part of this process that either forces you to compromise your beliefs and morals, and I'm all for compromise, but to an extent where you have to sell out your character, that is what is really concerning to me. And so if I had the opportunity to serve in the leadership of state government, I would focus on returning some integrity back to the process as well as enabling the human aspect of it, which is trusting my fellow Vermonters to be capable enough of taking care of themselves if we help them down that path, as opposed to taking away their freedoms and controls and telling them what's best for them. And Emily, what does the better world that you know in your heart is possible look like? Well, I think that we should have a much more collaborative system of self-governance. And for example, there are strengths that Trevor has. There are people who have strengths that everybody has a strength and they know what they need. And as Trevor was speaking to, what we're finding is the legislators act as if they have to take care of, they have to provide fixes for rather than trusting that the people could come up with the right answers themselves, or if they were more involved intrinsically in the decisions, such as having a voice in the votes on the bills. I feel like there's a distrust of the legislator and the bureaucracy of the people. And on top of that, as people may know, this idea that the legislature only is able to tax, spend and regulate is a very limited view of what the legislature could do if it were willing to grapple with the injustice of poverty in a digital monetary system. There are numerous methods of increasing money in circulation for those who need it the most. I'll call it democratizing money. We haven't seen them enacted by a legislature and I don't know if that's because the banking lobby or the two-party system is so firmly in control. So this is what I want to do. I want people to learn to demand these alternative methods of bringing more money into circulation. Such as a public bank, such as having a Vermont credit card where we market it to tourists and all the value of those interest payments would go into a treasury, it could fund small communities. And a number of other ways that I think that the way we finance our government and the way we finance what we're doing has very low integrity, such as sending people away to prison and benefiting a private prison complex when instead we could be doing restorative systems that hire more people locally. These are extensive ideas that I'd like to meet and talk with people throughout the next two years so that you can understand how much we can do that we're not doing right now to alleviate poverty. So one of the media outlets branded the, or maybe not branded, but accused the independent candidates being single issue and on an ego trip kind of thing and being basically irrelevant. So why don't we start with Emily this time again? Could you say a few words about each of the issues that you think are particularly important? All right. That a governor could do, that a governor could institute, that a governor could put in motion. Right. Well, I have one single issue that it'd be for the good of all, but we shall look at the democratizing money is a whole element bringing more money in circulation or improving the amount that we have available through certain mechanisms that speaks to the economy. Then of course we have a restorative approach to our nonviolent criminals. Then of course we have a nonprofit natural health care system that runs alongside the for profit system but where we fund a system that people can go to to learn about how food is medicine to engage in movement is medicine, laughter is medicine some of the more natural ways that we can restore a healthy bodies. Then of course I think that's three so far and then of course we have education and the concerns that I have about a compliance based education where children are expected to comply rather than being supported to learn for their passion and as well any sort of removal of the school as a foundation of a community is something that really needs to stop. We need these schools and I believe there's plenty of money to fund them if we approach our budget properly. That's four. There's of course building community for climate change and I always promote Hemcrete which I believe will do as much work as the solar panels do in that they'll save our buildings about three quarters of the use of fuel and each cubic meter, each cubic yard, sorry will sequester 185 pounds or so of carbon during its lifetime. So I think the state needs to get involved in funding a hemp processing plant that would cost several millions, maybe 16 millions and that it should belong to the people and the dividends belong to the people in how we can explore that people can get a universal basic dividend from a number of different sources. Those are, there's five right there and yet I've been, as you said, named a single issue candidate. Trevor. Yes. Things that you are a bit or close to your heart to accomplish and put in motion as governor. Well, I think there's a bit of irony in being addressed as a single issue candidate for me because of my business experience. I feel like I have a good understanding of common sense and what are realistic goals for serving a two year term. So during a two year term as governor, which is a whole separate conversation that's still going on politically with regards to what can you truly accomplish at scale in a two year period? So unless it's technology, which I think is our modern exception, but to address kind of the issues as far as I see them and what I would focus on, I look at everything through a lens of innovation and that's been the issue that I've been accused of, I guess, which I will gladly take that accusation because I think Vermont needs innovation. I think some of the ideas that Emily just shared are extremely innovative. If you socialize those ideas, then they spur more ideas. When people feel like they can openly share thoughts they have in creative solutions for solving our problems. So as far as issues, I limit myself to a few, even though I have somewhat I would call smaller items that I think could bring great benefit. So the first issue is looking at our economy and how we grow it and we expand wealth for all while leveraging the rising tide and all boats will rise together is getting into using tax money, so taking existing money within our budgets and dedicating it to innovation and putting it, I have a pretty lengthy plan about this that people can request either via my website or I'll publish it on social media with regards to our regional development centers and saying let's give each center a million dollars a year for five years and say that money is dedicated towards generating local ideas, so creative ideas. They have a million dollars to invest in people. Ideally, they turn into businesses that locate in those regions and employ people and bring more wealth to the area. But worst case scenario, we're spurring the creative juices and energies of regions that have felt a bit downtrodden or beaten down by a more controlled economic model where Montpelier is telling them how their tax money will be spent as opposed to returning it to them. And there are great people in Montpelier so I'm not trying to make Montpelier an evil. I'm just using it to be an example of this government that is not allowing its people to help itself. The second thing I would look at, like I said I could dive more into the innovation aspect in getting into these funds, but the second part I look at is healthcare because I think if we look at the economic benefits of health and wellness and even though Emily and I might have some different ideas on how to approach it, we see the same problem. And the same problem is that if you don't have a healthy populace, then you create vicious circles I think for people especially for those that are less financially able to care for themselves. Everyone is able to care for themselves in general in a simplistic sense. If you take care of your physical health, you take care of your mental health, you eat well. We know those are the basic building blocks that really are not that expensive when it comes to lowering healthcare costs. So as a society we should be making those things a priority. We don't currently do that very well. And so I think there are programs we could implement leveraging our schools to help make those accessible. And then the third issue that I think I would focus on or not think but no I would focus on is with regards to education. I have two elementary age children who are getting good educations in schools but I've looked at the administrative structure of our schools and kind of the rationale behind Act 46 and the consolidation and I can't apply any common sense to that model whatsoever. You're going to try to save rural communities by closing their community centers. I mean ask yourself that. That's essentially what Act 46 is about. It's about saving money for the state but not really saving communities. And I think if you keep these schools open and you invest in these communities and tell these communities we believe in you. You've done it before. We have it historically as Vermonters. We have an amazing history of innovation and self-determination. I mean we talk about freedom and unity. It's the individual freedoms but working together to solve those problems. Schools, that's it. That's your main place. You want to talk about your main place of creativity and innovation. It's in a child's development through our public education. Let's focus on fixing those things and returning the power back to the individuals at the local level so that then they can bring about change. So to roll this all back into how we get classified with regards to our value within the conversation for debates as to whether we are fit to govern this state. And I think Emily said it so well with regards to it's not about being an individual who can run the state. We are not the heroes of the panacea for all of society's issues. What we come from is the perspective of saying, you know what, there are many voices out there of value that we need to do a better job of incorporating into discussion as well as collaborating with to solve our problems as well as saying that what we would do is trust you, the Vermonter and try to find ways to enable you to take better care of yourselves towards the benefit of all. Can I ask you to look at the particular problem of very broad bureaucracy in Vermont? We have about double the amount of bureaucracy and half as many as many people as a neighbor, New Hampshire. And I've run up against this when I've been attempting to begin a small business at a farmer's market. And I found that the health department was deciding that I needed not one but two licenses that kind of contraindicated. And they get their funding by the amount of licenses that they have to give out. So when we have this sort of situation where bureaucracy is funded by its fees and licenses and the legislature has let it do that and yet we could be accomplishing the same goals so we could be encouraging more small business. For example, if we didn't charge fees for these new food businesses coming in, even though they would need to get inspected and pass inspection, how do you handle reducing the bureaucracy in Vermont if that's what you might do? Yeah, well, my personal thought I guess is it's two-fold. I think the way you reduce bureaucracy is you make it an economic discussion. So to your point of what does it take to be a successful and productive member of our society? And the reason why I boil it down to that level because I think that gets into my arguments for lowering taxes. That the reason why taxes are so high right now is because we have such a top heavy administrative process right now in our state which did not exist 30, 40 years ago. And don't get me wrong, I've been in a variety of discussions so if we wanna talk about breadth of knowledge with regards to Act 60 and Act 250 and getting into our environmental regulations and our business friendliness and in general, how we address human behavior because that's ultimately what we're trying to manage and control here to some extent. And I see with all these administrative items that it's kind of a guilty until proven innocent theory which is contradictory to our, and I also look at through the lens of are you punishing a majority for the sins of a minority? And those are difficult concepts to embrace because bad things happen. And I don't think we can prevent all bad things but we need to return back to that trust of the individual that we would not be a functioning society if the majority of us on a daily basis didn't make more positive and negative decisions in our life and make decisions that were in our own best interests. So I would argue to your point and agree with you that we don't need as much administration as we have. If we trust human beings to make the right decision which majority of time they'll do because it's in our best interest, we have a survival instinct within us that is visceral then you will get positive outcomes. And so I think we can get to a point especially in this day and age with technology where we can better measure the impacts of human behavior and then through that measurement that will improve over time, decide how we best apply our resources to the areas where there are problems that need solutions. So if we boil it down to your example which I think is wonderful, the challenge of small business, starting a small business is infinitely difficult because of beyond what can just happen on a day to day basis that may be out of your control. If you add multiple layers of bureaucracy or administration into that mix, it becomes a very daunting task in an activity that in my mind is encouraging individuals to take risk in order to take care of themselves and to control their own environment. So jump in if you want something to say. Yeah, we've been campaigning together for quite a while and I'm wondering if any of the ideas about monetary policy, about increasing our money in circulation, very true to you. Absolutely, so I will say it's been more recently that I've become aware of your ideas with regards to leveraging financial tools, existing financial tools. So a banking methodology we'll call it with regards to a state bank, a credit methodology with regards to creating a state sponsored credit card. And those ideas to me are beautiful in the sense that they leverage existing systems and market systems because a lot of people nowadays, the word socialist gets thrown around especially with regards to Vermont. And it's saying no, we respect market mechanisms because I think there's a strong logic there if they're properly managed and if they're beneficial to everyone. And I know we've talked off camera many times about my disappointment with the win at all costs culture which I think business can promote unfortunately which then creates absolute winners and absolute losers as opposed to creating a win-win situation for all. So to add one of my ideas to the mix as along those lines when I talk about creating innovation funds that are administered through these development corporations around the state, we have 12 of them. And having them be processed through innovation centers so we're actually funding ideas and funding businesses in these communities along with that I would like to have Vermonters be able to co-invest and be able to say that as part of these innovation funds both corporate entities and private individuals can invest whatever amount, small amounts of money could be $5 so that whatever benefits are created from these funds and these activities get returned to the general populace. And so I think along with your ideas we work along those same lines logically with regards to if you allow people and you empower them to participate and you reward them as opposed to penalizing them and start to create systems that benefit all Vermonters as opposed to this adversarial model of when it all costs it's a better way to manage your society. And I think it's a better way to set up positive outcomes for everybody. So Emily one of the things that really intrigued me was the idea of a nurturing economy and I have the impression that Trevor just addressed that. Could you say something about how to create a nurturing economy? Yeah, one of the things that I'm an idea person I'm also person of action. So ideas, ambitions of how we can go forward come very spring very easily to me and I recognize that they are just a seed and then when they're tended by lots of people if they take then they evolve. So one seed that I think would be very beautiful to see come to fruition would be offering a path for people who are now in universities or schooling or of that age to be able to invest sweat equity into community building as an actual building houses from natural materials that help us deal with climate change that are also passively oriented. So bringing the brilliance of the zero waste community forward and all the technology that we can do to reduce waste, LED lightings and so forth and even composting systems. So as an opportunity that we can offer to these young people to instead of maybe being in a beer pong game or maybe an addition to go and actually hands on build these communities from bottom up, possibly using land that we've seized in a tax sale or something like a dairy farm or some other and have their sweat equity translate into residential rights. And if we do this around the state, then we're creating communities that can also have alternative currencies that also reduce our problems of isolation that have been coming since the Industrial Revolution that help us re-weave the fabric of society. I think this idea and this plan has merit when I talk about it, of course, in terms of a political platform, it seems way outside of the box. But what we see is that the millennials are saddled with so much debt. It's almost impossible for them to have land. And we've destroyed communities so much with this debt-based monetary system and people are working two, three, four jobs sometimes. And now on top of it, these people have to pay their school debt. So I think being able to be at least platocetive, let's allow ourselves to be creative. Let's allow ourselves some room to solve things in a creative way that ultimately allows us to be more human and has our experience of fulfilling our purpose and integrating with each other in a loving, caring way ought to be the benchmark of our success, probably over our gross domestic output. So that's a little bit of a piece of my mind. So, Trevor, what are your plans for the next two years? The existing media situation has basically said, you have no chance, we're not covering you, we're not giving you the, we're not giving your ideas the opportunity for people to respond, right? We're just, nobody knows about you, basically, unless they meet you at some event. So what are your plans for the next two years? As far as politically, I plan to stay involved on a community level because I was, that was part of what spurred me into putting my proverbial name in the hat for this election cycle, was that I was involved in a lot of community groups and programs and starting to really understand the shortcomings, I guess, of the application and the administration there with school, healthcare, business development in Vermont. So I would say my knee-jerk response or visceral response would be, I plan to stay involved. I also plan to see what the actual outcomes are of this election because I have been using non-traditional channels to reach out to people, which is, I guess, non-traditional now, but used to be traditional once upon a time, which is getting out there and traveling around the state and actually meeting people and not doing it with a lot of fanfare, but trying to leverage our digital tools through social media to at least document that, hey, I'm out there and I care and I've invested a significant amount of time and thought into this campaign right now. So regardless of outcome, even though I will say there's a little voice in me that's still playing hard till the end from maybe an underdog upbringing, that I think there's always a chance, but pending the actual outcome, I plan to stay involved and plan to try to see how post-election I can maintain a voice that's more significant within the state as far as still pushing to get these ideas forward of how we can improve the state because I'm not doing this for personal gain right now. I purposefully, and I think Emily can make some wonderful statements about that as well, have chosen not to raise significant amounts of money. I've raised small amounts of money from people that are near and dear to my heart, kind of the proverbial, what we would call in the business world, friends and family round to explore this political process and see if my personal thesis, which is can you win without having to buy the voters of Vermont? Can you do it through hard work? And I know if I do not have win the election that a lot of it will be due to constraints that I placed on myself with regards to time and how long I've had my voice out there publicly. But I do plan to continue and see if there is a different route towards, I guess, winning ultimately in the next round. And by winning, I mean winning over the people of Vermont and trying to return to what I consider to be the heart and soul of Vermont, which is valuing the individual, valuing the individual's capacity to be productive and creative and affect change that's better for all of us if we collaborate. So Emily, what are you planning to do for the next two years? Ah, well, it's time for a little bit of fun. What happens in election cycles? I start out having some fun and then it gets to be a little bit more serious and more serious. And I have a funny moment inside my nature in a circle of friends who are performers and playwrights. And I've written plays before. So one thing I'm looking forward to is writing a political comedy and performing it. Also working on a book as well, diary of a suppressed actress or something. And when the weather is getting better, we're starting to build a tiny house with hemcrete. And I'm working on a design that I would like to see come to fruition that will be totally self-sufficient in terms of gathering water, having composting systems that are also carbon negative. They could be a model for housing homeless people which has been an area of passion for me. And if I move forward, and I will be moving forward like Trevor doing this sort of person-to-person outreach and learning to get comfortable with being a leader. And so could we raise money in lieu of raising money for signs and advertising, would it be actually more prudent to raise money for a nonprofit that builds houses for homeless people or engages the people who are in prison to learn how to build their houses so that when they come out they have housing, it's not, again, a burden on the state. And we didn't really get to talk to maybe another interview we could talk about the knot that has become our either entitlement or our welfare state and how it's just not working very well. But I will say that for another time. So I'll be working on building and deciding these tiny houses, working on a comedy and also the book. What was the title of the book again? I hate the working title. I mean, I was thinking diary of a suppressed activist I don't know. We'll have to see. Yeah, we'll have to see. Very good. Thank you very much. I appreciated that. Cander. I've also thrown my hat in for 2020. Already. Cause I was just gonna, you know, we're gonna, and I would love to see if we could do, you mentioned these signs or a bunch of people on a sign. I'd like to team up with the best people that I've found and put a ticket of a team, a team ticket. Yeah, it sounds like a good idea. Yeah, I did. I must say, one, I feel privileged to have, as I mentioned earlier, being privileged, but I feel even more privileged to have been able to participate in this process. I mean, that is one thing about Vermont that I do so appreciate even beyond the feeling, the exclusionary actions, I guess that I've witnessed, you are still encouraged in this state to participate. When I went out there initially collecting signatures, the majority of commentary was, it's always great to have another voice in the mix, more than happy to support you whether I agree with you or not and kind of getting back to that more respectful conversation. So I definitely look forward to maintaining a relationship with someone who I hadn't known prior to undertaking this election, Emily as well as some of the other independent candidates. And frankly, I hope we're at least on the radar of the Democratic and Republican candidates because I think they are good people as well who have good ideas. And I hope that we can all work together between now and then to do a better job of incorporating these ideas towards the benefit of all of us. So thank you very much for that opportunity. So maybe one last question. Say something about the difference between the ideas that you're advocating for and the position that you're aiming for. So what is the difference in, and why you from a certain point of view, why not just the ideas or why not just you and forget about the ideas? What is that difference? What is it that makes the, that creates the ambition to become governor? I think for me, it's the voice and it's who you are as a person. And you have to have a certain amount of self-confidence obviously to even put yourself through this process and to say that I think I could be a wonderfully representative voice of the population at large. I also think there needs to be a significant amount of humbleness there as well with regards to saying that even though because of the structure of our government, I might be one of the primary voices, it doesn't necessarily mean that I am the sole source of all the solutions to our problems. It's a matter of saying I have specific ideas that I think have merit based on my experience that I would like to push forward and see adopted, but that does not mean that it's to the exclusion of other ideas that are out there or modifications to my own ideas that might arrive at better outcomes. I think I know I personally try to look in the mirror daily to keep my ego in check and not in a way of saying I am hungry for power. No, I'm hungry for change for all of us, myself included, but more so for all of us because I gain the greatest satisfaction from seeing my everyday activities benefit others. The difference between the policies that you're advocating for and the motivation to be the governor to implement them? Well, my motivation to be governor is really I've been looking for leadership that has a much stronger backbone that really speaks to the indignity that we feel when we see executive actions that are acting in a deplorable way, making children and families kidnapped from one another is one example, but there are plenty. So I have a very deep sense of fairness, economic fairness, and also a belief that people who are encouraged to be freer will enhance my life. And I have a foundation of trust that when people are freer, that they are happier and they are more of a joy to be around. So that's what I haven't, that's been lacking in the leadership that I see. As we've spoken, it seems like the leadership will continually compromise towards the party and I really feel like we need a woman, a woman who can speak to the amount of fairness and the amount of balance, what I call balance that's needed. And if we can, that's why I'm seeking the governorship. And as you can see, you can see me stumble a little bit because it's a difficult role that really hasn't been modeled often to be a woman leader and to speak with clarity. Sometimes you'll see me trip over my words, but my heart is absolutely clear and I'm struggling with myself to be more articulate and more confident because these are the changes that I believe will be for the good of all that I'd like to experience. I'd like to experience the people being much freer, being freer of the burden of debt and free to heal the world really. So that's why I want to be governor. Good, thank you very much. This was very enlightening and it's so refreshing to have such a different view and understanding of what it's really all about. That was wonderful, I appreciate it greatly.