 I think we should go ahead and get started. Thanks for joining us today. I'm Cliff Lynch, I'm the director of CNI and I welcome you to the closing session of our virtual spring 2020 member meeting. It's been quite a remarkable two months and well I had not originally planned to do this. I felt as we got into the meeting that it would be appropriate to officially and formally bring the virtual meeting to a conclusion and recognize various contributions towards it. I want to talk a little bit about the meeting and where we go from here and then I want to close this by reflecting a bit on some of the things that are happening, how I'm trying to think about the present and the future a little bit and reflect a little bit about how I see the broad picture in higher ed developing and conclude with one sort of fundamental theme that I've recognized very strongly through the developments of the last couple of months. So let me, oh and I will be delighted to field questions or take comments at the end. Let me start with a review of where we've been. It's kind of amazing to me that we made the decision on March 10th. I went back and looked at the date on the email as to to cancel the in-person meeting in San Diego and to move to a virtual meeting. Over the course of the next 21 days we basically found a platform for the virtual meeting designed to format, sorted out with our speakers, dealt with the scheduling and we did in fact launch the virtual meeting on schedule on the 30th of March. So that was kind of an amazing experience which I don't think I ever want to go through again, at least not quite that quickly and very much reflects I think the experience that all of us had having to respond very rapidly to a lot of uncertainty and to do the best we could to come through the other side of that uncertainty. We deliberately chose to do a virtual meeting that was rethought and extremely different in character from what would have been our in-person meeting although it included a substantial amount of the same content. I think that that was a really good choice. I've participated in a number of meetings and workshops that were literally moved online in exactly the same format and timescale as the original meeting was intended to be in person and I really think that this worked a lot better. We tried really hard to take advantage of the additional opportunities that the virtual meeting and the span of the virtual meeting offered in terms of adding additional late-breaking content and also responding to needs as we perceived them. We did not one but two executive roundtables, one that was planned before the meeting pivoted from physical to virtual, that was kind of prescient since it dealt with new models for acquiring instructional content and certainly the agenda for the discussion at that roundtable which was conducted on the 30th of March was a bit different than originally planned and reflected the scrambling that many of the participating institutions had done over the preceding couple of weeks in order to get the instructional materials in place that were needed to support a very rapid transition to remote instruction. We also managed to schedule a roundtable on research continuity which is a topic that I believe is critically important and that has been really under explored. We prioritized getting the report of that out and in fact it has been out now for about a week. We will be doing a session not as part of the spring virtual meeting but a pair of one-off webinars over the coming weeks reporting on each of those roundtables so we've already sent out invites to those and we expect to have the report on the instructional content acquisition roundtable out next week. I believe that those executive roundtables worked very well in the virtual format and one of the things that the virtual format let us do which we've not been so successful doing in the in-person meetings because of the overhead of travel is to bring in participation from other key leadership within the university so we had representatives from the office of research at a number of key institutions who were able to join us for the research continuity executive roundtable. I think that based on this experience you can look forward to us in convening additional roundtables sort of irregularly throughout the year on various topics and I think we are also very likely going to return to the research continuity topic and take another snapshot on where we are on that in probably August or September although we'll we'll see how that timing works out and see where people are on their thinking on that at that point. We had lots and lots of project briefings including perhaps seven or eight that were added late dealing with various aspects of the response to the pandemic and the move to remote operations and the closure of our campuses including a very important one for example that looked at the Hottie Trust emergency access program. We also recorded and have made available a number of what would have been the short updates these 10 to 15 minute updates that we had been doing in our most recent in-person meetings. We didn't try to schedule those live it just seemed too cumbersome but certainly please you know watch the ones you're interested in they've all been posted on our website. One of the other byproducts of moving to a virtual meeting is that with the exception of a very small number of sessions where the presenters did not want to be recorded for one reason or another we have genuinely comprehensive video documentation of the meeting and hopefully that is going to be very valuable for a lot of our members and also for a lot of other people in the broader community. Obviously we missed some elements that are very important in our physical meeting then a lot of the networking a lot of the spontaneous conversations those kinds of you know happy accidents obviously were not easy to do in this format and I miss these and I know that all of you do too I'm so sorry we couldn't have our reception we thought about how could we do this virtually and just couldn't come up with a way that made sense so I look forward to being able to have a toast with all of you when we get back together or maybe we'll think of a way to do this virtually in future if we need to. I'm thinking of possibly doing some small sessions just inviting like the first 20 or 30 people to sign up to have a chat for an hour about whatever's on their mind and maybe trying out one or two of those in the coming month or so if you think that's a good idea I'd love to hear from you about it well we haven't made up our mind about that a couple final things on the subject of the meeting we do want to understand your views on what you liked and didn't like and what you thought worked and didn't work we will be sending out an email with a link to an evaluation form very shortly after this session and it's not got a lot of numerical ratings and tick boxes on it it's mostly an invitation for you to talk to us about what you think worked and didn't and what else we might do or what we might do differently we're going to be thinking very hard over the summer and as we look at those evaluations and your comments about what the right role of face-to-face meetings is and how they complement interact with overlap face-to-face meetings and virtual meetings this is a really tough question and I don't think anybody has a great answer to it one thing that I will say that came up several times and that has struck me as a very profound observation and a very accurate observation is if one person is remote at a meeting everybody is remote that these sort of mixed remote and in-person meetings generally don't work very well think of your experience when you had an in-person meeting and two folks coming in remote to a conference room full of people that is a very awkward arrangement and actually several folks have observed that since we've moved since everybody's moved to working remotely remote meetings with everybody genuinely remote work much better than these hybrid meetings that's something I think we need to reflect on very hard I wish I could tell you with certainty that December is going to take place we're planning on it at the moment we are watching and you know we'll make our best judgment at the best time we can there are a lot of factors mixed up in this and as with so much it's very uncertain right now so that's all I want to say about the meeting other than I'd welcome your thoughts either as part of your response to that evaluation or just drop Diane or me an email and we'd appreciate it I think our presenters very much our two keynoters were wonderful very early on in this entire situation working with us to be able to do those two plenary sessions as scheduled as part of the actual opening of the virtual meeting and I gotta salute the CNI team they did an astounding job of figuring out how to get this done adapting to a lot of uncertainty learning as they went along and making all of this happen and uh my head is off to them let me talk a little bit about where we are and where we're going more broadly I think that we all know at this point that we're never going to return to the old normal as it was I think early on and a lot of this is just part of the way people adapt to abrupt change there was talking about you know how do we get through this and just get through it and get back to get back to the old normal as it was and we're not going to go back there some things are going to come back I'm not sure they're going to come back the same way that they were before there's going to be a new normal although nobody's sure at this point how long that's going to take to stabilize a lot of it really depends on medical advances that are really tough to predict at this point really tough to predict for example travel is largely shut down at this point I can't tell you how strange this is for me I've been home and in one time zone for longer than any period I can think of in at least 35 years it's really quite remarkable at the same time we're all realizing that travel incurred a tremendous amount of friction and overhead and that maybe a number of things that we travel we traveled to do before really aren't worth that much overhead and that being able to do more things because we don't have to build in all that friction is a good trade and we don't understand the balance there but it's something that clearly we're all going to be thinking about international travel I think is particularly going to be challenging for some time to come there are some substantial social and behavioral changes that are coming into play and where these land I don't know one very obvious one is about working and learning at home about how often we do place space things about whether businesses still continue to operate at the office all of the implications of that for employment patterns and demographics regions and the regional distribution of learners and of workforce how people choose to live I don't think that there's going to be any complete you know return to the old way how we find the balance going forward I don't know there's a whole calibration going on right now about risks and acceptable loss and about how we deal with the uneven vulnerabilities of segments of the population these are very difficult conversations that have a big social and societal kind of implication that are that's currently being negotiated there are second order implications of things like that dispersion to working at home for example what does this mean for the future of cities what does this mean for all of the investment that's been made in office real estate campuses for corporate campuses we just don't know but it feels to me like some of these things are going to get rebalanced one of the things that I'm very struck by and that's very adjacent to a lot of higher education is the future of the performing arts which are basically just shut down at this point and the future of arts institutions broadly some of them obviously will sort of you know go on hold and then come back although perhaps in changed forms and maybe not for a long time a lot of those are really fragile though and many of those probably won't make it through we're dealing honestly with a you know set of social powder kegs at this point with the massive unemployment and the various other stresses and tensions that are you know happening in in this society that have all been you know underscored and exaggerated by the pandemic and honestly there all sorts of folks adding gasoline to this powder keg at this point it's a very very concerning situation and it's very difficult to predict how that's going to play out and I'm not even going to touch the broader economics and geopolitics here I think one thing we need to recognize and we are recognizing though is that some institutions are going to fail here it seems very likely that this is going to be the final blow for some educational institutions and I think we've seen folks like Brian Alexander for example doing some very good chronicling of the situation there one other thing that I'm not hearing us talk about enough though and that I think is extremely germane to CNI and its members is that memory organizations are going to fail and we need to think a lot about how we pick up the pieces from the memory organizations and the cultural organizations that do fail to the extent we can and that it's appropriate so I would urge us to be thinking a little bit about that higher ed is in a really tough place right now I'm watching institutions grapple with what happens in the fall do we reopen do we plan for remote instruction in the fall do we go down both paths at once there's a whole set of considerations that show up that I think are not getting quite as widely discussed as the whole question of what happens to undergraduate instruction and that's what happens to the research enterprise and to graduate instruction and my sense is that that is going to come back probably very gradually very carefully in some different ways but in some ways it presents less challenge perhaps than full reopening of undergraduate instruction it will be very interesting to see how this sort of reinforces the fundamental character and commitments of institutions for example the institutions that are profoundly committed to small face small class face to face instruction and had perhaps never even dabbled in remote instruction before suddenly having to pivot to it in a matter of weeks I think the character of those institutions may make them conclude we must come back on the other hand very large research enterprises may actually in some cases be starting to have to consider exactly how does undergraduate education relate to graduate education and the research enterprise there's there are so many questions here and so much uncertainty against which these questions have to be answered I wish I had answers for any of these much less all of them but I thought I'd share these as some of the things that I'm watching very closely and very carefully right now and trying to understand and to the extent that CNI can gain insights into any of this or help you with your thinking through and your institutions thinking through any of these we stand ready to do whatever we can as best we can I want to just leave you with one sort of big thematic observation and exhortation as I've watched everything that's happened in the last few months and I've watched our substantial success with pivoting to remote instruction preserving the continuity of research and in fact mounting a massive research response to the pandemic it's really it's really and it hasn't been perfect by any means we know it hasn't been perfect but it has been surprisingly successful for what it is and we've only been able to do that because of 25 years of sustained systematic investment in the internet in networked information in digital libraries in moving scholarly communication to the digital environment this is what's allowed our research and teaching enterprises to survive and continue as well as they have I invite you to do a thought experiment imagine this pandemic occurring in 1990 now we had all the things in place that would make the pandemic possible we certainly had densely populated cities we had a highly mobile population we had lots of air travel I mean yes it's grown in the 30 years since then but all of the you know all of the preconditions were in place to have a global pandemic in 1990 how do you think we would have been able to respond to it then that's I think a very good benchmark for understanding the consequences of those 25 years of investment I think that we need to do a couple of things right now first we need to ensure that that investment is recognized and that the folks who made those farsighted systematic sustained investments get some credit and some recognition for it and we need to ensure that those investments are continued supported sustained and where necessary we doubled we need to look carefully and critically at what worked and what didn't work what things we missed and what additional things we should be doing in building out the digital infrastructure of networked information and support of teaching learning and research and we need to recognize where we face policy barriers that need to be addressed on a priority basis and where we can clearly illustrate the nature and the damage that these policy barriers do one of them that I'd identify that's very striking to me is that for all of the inter inter institutional collaboration and research resource sharing that we've done around collections and access almost all of that has broken down and it's broken down because it relied on first sale and the interchange and access and circulation of digital of physical objects and as soon as we couldn't access and move those physical objects all of those arrangements immediately collapsed wonderful as the Hottie trust emergency provision is it's reflecting institutional collections and not inter institutional arrangements we desperately need to figure out how to do first sale or some analog in the digital environment or find other ways around this I think I think highlighting framing and addressing that policy problem is a matter of considerable urgency at this point there are probably others but this is one that has surfaced very prominently in my conversations with you and member institutions and others over the last couple of months so I leave you with that observation that 25 years of sustained investment and hard work really has made a difference it has paid off here and we need to ensure that that investment continues that it grows and take it forward from here and with that I thank you for sharing a little time with me I would be delighted to hear comments further reflections field questions and I'd say either go ahead and do Q&A the Q&A tool or if you'd like just raise your hand and I'm delighted to unmute you and you can make your comment or ask your question that way so please the floor is open hey Howard hi Cliff um thank you so much for um particularly for the calling our attention to all the investment that we've made over the last 25 years and you know that hasn't just paid off for us it's paid off for the world I mean the internet wouldn't be what it is for people doing work from home if it hadn't been for higher ed's investment so I think that's a really important observation and and as you said I think we really have to kind of ask for recognition for that and at least feel proud for that um I've got um a very different kind of question I'm curious as to how CNI's finances how big a hit the cancellation of San Diego took and whether there's some um whether there's any serious jeopardy or how things are going um I'm I'm just concerned so actually let me just say a couple of brief things about that because I know it's on a lot of not just people's minds about CNI but a lot of organization a lot of organizations are struggling right now with business models and things like that so the first thing I need to say is that CNI is funded entirely out of member dues unlike a lot of organizations that are funded by a combination a mixture of member dues and revenue from meetings so the first thing I need to say is that um we we weren't expecting any revenue from the meeting in fact the meeting is a substantial the in-person meeting is a substantial expense in that sense um we as I think is the experience with most um conferences that uh had to cancel at least in the near term time frame the last month or so um there's there's enough you know issues with force majeure and you know um government prohibitions on holding large meetings and uh things like that that the hotels are are primarily being pretty reasonable about it uh particularly and and actually have been working with organizations to say well how about we reschedule your meeting for your next open year here or something like that and we've you know we we worked with the hotel in San Diego and that was all fine um you know so I feel pretty good about that uh now how this all change is going forward I don't know um I you know the the December meeting and how that affects things is difficult to predict and you know what what will happen with that is a little more difficult to predict but the first thing I want to stress is we're not reliant on revenue from those meetings what we what we are reliant on is holding on to our members and that will be very important going forward and um I'm happy to say that you know so far the response has been very strong and I thank all of those institutions that have renewed and I hope that um many many of the remaining institutions will find a way to be with us going forward um I think we are I I'm I'm I'm pretty confident we're going to be fine at least for the coming year hopefully for at least the next two years and by then the world may be so different that um you know I have no I just have no idea uh I think that's really about all I want to say on that subject other than um I am I am talking to a number of other organizations who are really worried about you know their organizational stability and I do fear that some of the organizations who rely very heavily on um you know meeting revenue rather than dues may be in a very difficult place and um may have to you know merge or rethink their business models in various ways does that help yeah no no thank you thank you yeah I I I knew where the revenue came from but I I was just afraid of the hit from the hotel but they're being reasonable that's right we'll we're okay really great and we'll we'll find a way I'm confident to be okay at least for a while Joan please hi there uh hi Cliff I was interested in your comment that don't expect things to return to normal there'll be a lot of fundamental changes and I'd like you to expand on that a little bit while I do agree that a number of higher education institutions will have to close they won't be able to make this finally that um some programs may change some practices may change I guess my belief is that some of the what I consider fundamental aspects of the way we conduct us higher education actually will resume and will resume when it's safe but in much the same way because one of the things the pandemic has demonstrated is how very very much people want in-person physical connections with student to student student to faculty and in spaces like library spaces and just the campus itself so I'd be interested in your expanding a little bit more on your thoughts okay my take on this is maybe a little different than yours the data that I've seen and the way I read the stuff I've seen is that some students very very much want face-to-face in-person instruction they very much value residential instruction and the entire residential student experience and they want that back as soon as it's safe and maybe even sooner um I think there's no question about that and I think that in part that's a tribute to how well some schools do that kind of instruction I think though that there are a substantial portion of people who are fairly happy with the notion of um online instruction and online instruction is inexpensive it's flexible you can do it from home a lot of a lot of schools have dragged their feet about doing this and I think that particularly for state schools when you juxtapose tuition costs and full cost of attending school and opportunity costs around not being able to work at the same time you may get different answers so I think I agree with you absolutely that as soon as we can we are going to resume face-to-face and largely residential undergraduate instruction uh for a significant portion of those who are attending college but I think that the portion that is going to be served by other kinds of instruction remote instruction online instruction part-time instruction and maybe even the mix of how much time you spend doing that and how much time you spend residential may get rethought um and I think some of the factors that drive this too may be um maybe economic particularly if we see a sustained full-scale depression going on thanks Cliff I I agree that there are segments of the student population that could really gain from having more online instruction available and it's very interesting to note the number of position openings for instructional designers because one of the things that would need to change is a better development of curricula for online education yeah agreed um and I think the other thing that happens is to some extent um as courses move online and are very professionally produced with instructional designers you may see a smaller number of courses being presented and you know supplement faculty supplementing those courses rather than trying to produce their own uh just because the the scale effects will will be natural all right thank you Howard did you have another question no no no no I'm sorry sorry no no worries please more more questions comments yes hi Cliff uh I have a quick question may not be kind of but thank you again for you know organizing this kind of know after the spring word spring virtual conference virtual meeting kind of having this time to wrap up and you know uh bounce off ideas I was just wondering like how can um maybe this may not be in the within the scope of what cni does but how can cni maybe help uh join like her question like building over providing that training that support libraries or institutions kind of provide that training for quite five um less instructional designer when we move into because everybody's saying that again we are not going to go back to normal as we use to know it there's changes are going to come so I'm wondering can cni uh maybe be part of that discussion or maybe provide support or support maybe even the uh the partners that you or the institutions that are already partnering with you does my question make sense yes it does and I let me let me just try and answer that um at least in a in a tentative way um so cni is mostly an organization that focuses on trying to chart the future identify where our institutions need to be help them think about how organizationally they might need to change to get there um it's mostly about strategy more than it is about skills we have a number of you know sort of uh parallel organizations that work with us that have a much greater focus on um you know developing specific skills and expertises um at you know at an operating level um I'll give you one example kind of it maybe it's a little bit of an analogy so starting around 2000 or so c and I spent a lot of time jumping up and down and um talking to various institutional leaders um cio's chief librarians um uh provokes anybody else we could get to listen policymakers saying research data and research data curation and management are going to be critically important to the future of scholarship and for the first five or six years that we did that most people just said oh it's them you know often science fiction again um and then people started to realize as they looked at developments in scholarship um and how science policy was science policy was evolving among funders and uh practices around open science that were beginning to emerge and things like that that well you know there's some truth to this and then they start we started talking about well what does this really kind of mean strategically what does it mean in terms of alliances that libraries need to make with say the office of research or how do we think about stewardship of research data and how does this connect to policymakers at and um funders and publishers and working scholars and we hosted a quite a bit of that conversation and highlighted quite a bit of early work then a number of other organizations stepped up and started dealing with how do we really train data curators at scale what are the skills that are needed what's the training that's needed how do we introduce that operationally in detail into our organizations and frankly very little of that was done by CNI and we have largely stepped back from much of the conversation around research data management not because it's not important by we we think it's absolutely important and we do still step in there when there are policy and strategic things that it makes sense and that we can help with but we feel our work there is to a certain extent largely done and other people have taken up the initiative from a more operational level that's not really what we're good at and so I would say some of that's going to be the model that will follow going forward here as well I would expect okay does that help yeah it does have yeah thanks thank you for the question and Lisa at Lisa Hinchcliffe says I think we also need to be thinking about the number of universities and colleges that will close and merge and not just associations and yes I think that's really true and there are some really curious implications of that and I'll just share I'll share one of them that worries me a lot so a lot of these institutions that I am afraid are going to close or merge are relatively small institutions a lot of them are private now the thing that's interesting about these is that while they're small and they you know may not be viewed as research powerhouses or widely known other than to you know perhaps a dedicated body of alums they in many cases they've been around for 100 150 175 years some of them have some really interesting and maybe important special collections archives some of them may have artifacts small museums associated with them or what I believe it was Winston Tab I think I heard the term first from and it's memorable unstewarded objects you know all of these things that institutions accumulate that aren't in an organized museum or a curated collection but are just you know paintings hanging places and statues and things there's a lot of important cultural record there that is easy to lose and that you know maybe we ought to be particularly think be thinking about as stores of the cultural record other comments no other comments or questions well I guess it's Friday afternoon oh wait Lisa is going to ask another how about I turn your voice on Lisa there you go great so I always appreciate the chance to ask you questions so if no one else is going to another thing that I guess I've been thinking a lot about is you know definitely don't want to use the human capital stock phrasing but I I note that I think a number of people are thinking about retirement differently now than they were and so as somebody who is not quite at the age where I can be thinking about retirement I I of course wish everyone absolutely the best in that phase of their life but I think about the intellectual and organizational knowledge that resides within them and I'm I'm wondering if we need to be also thinking about knowledge management within our own information organizations as you know obviously there'll be financial pressures against retirement in many cases but I think many people are also finding it looking somewhat attractive uh thank you for raising that you know that's a really that that's a hard and nasty question that has a lot of dimensions and that we really need to think about we need to think about all the dimensions of it and I think you know one dimension that you identify is the loss of knowledge and continuity inside our organization and how you lose people that you know people retire and you lose you know 20 30 40 years sometimes of expertise uh now I I would like to believe that some of our organizations will be smart enough to figure out ways to continue to draw on that that pool of expertise on a part-time basis or an emeritus based this sort of things like that when they can and you know I mean we've been shameless about it with Joan Lippincott and she's been wonderful uh and terribly generous uh but I I think that's a strategy I think systematically documenting some of that as a strategy uh I think it's worth reflecting on what this means to scholarship too uh because you've got some kind of strange things happening right now you know you're talking about bringing students back to campus and yet um some of the most senior of the faculty um with you know vast expertise and knowledge and experience run a very run a relatively much higher risk by teaching in person than junior faculty or the students attending the lectures and so there's a very tricky discussion going on right now about well even if students come back to campus should these folks be teaching face to face should we should we at least give them the option to teach virtually and then you think about um you know there's an incredible resource at campuses in terms of emeritus faculty who often still stay engaged in teaching advising students um research uh they just do it at you know sort of the slower pace and picking and choosing what they want to do uh those folks probably just in terms of you know the demographics the vulnerability are often at greatest risk but they're also a huge asset that we need to we we we should want to keep and preserve and keep safe do we you know should we be reaching out to find ways to um allow them in particular to engage remotely with people who want to draw on their expertise um in ways somewhat similar to you know the way um people sometimes would just drop into them when they hold office hours so i there's a lot of thinking we have to do about the you know uneven distribution of vulnerability and risk among the population and the workforce um and what that means to you know are our best ways for both keeping people safe and using their knowledge and expertise to greatest advantage and making it um you know as widely available and preserving as much of it as possible does that get in any of it i did not expect you to have like the definitive word on it so i just you know it's just another aspect that i feel like is going to come up in our conversation so it is going to come up and um uh you know we we we we need to just sort of talk about it fairly straightforwardly um i have a comment from uh rebecca lubis here saying i'm seeing opportunities in institutions recognizing the value of libraries as libraries have been able to pivot to online services quickly or be recognized for abilities we've had all along how can we sustain and develop this advantage um i think that that is a very key question which we're going to be you know exploring in the coming months um i think that we've uh been successful in having in in opening up a lot more conversations to faculty than um than perhaps in the past particularly as we've helped them to uh to bring their um bring their teaching materials online uh as as part of the fast pivot i've also heard some very interesting reports of um research data um curators being asked to help out in finding data that researchers can use that other researchers have produced and i think that may be a growing role um but i i do think that um i i do think that there's a real there's a real significant case to be made i'll just share one other observation that came out of the conversation about um research continuity there are a lot of institutions that when they started talking about research and research continuity and research resumption uh that basically make the horrible mistake of equating research and the research enterprise with what goes on in the labs on their campus the research enterprise is much larger than on campus in lab activity and includes everything from field work to the work that humanists do the work that humanists do is often terribly bound to archives special collections and the libraries and yet the libraries were not recognized at least not at first on many campuses as an essential part of the discussion about research continuity and the resumption of research and uh that's a really important case not just for libraries to make but for faculty to make so that's a few thoughts on that uh do we have any other questions or comments or reflections that people want to make my sense is everybody is exhausted it's late friday afternoon at least for those of us on the east coast and it's been a long and i think very rewarding two months of virtual meeting i'd just like to say thank you all um you'll be hearing from us on an ongoing basis i know that in the old world i would see many of you at one gathering or another fairly frequently and it would give us an opportunity to chat and just stay in touch about things and um that's more difficult now but uh please stay in touch if you know you just want to talk about what's going on at some point or you'd like to bring together some of your staff and talk about things for an hour or something uh drop me or diane a line and you know let's try and make that happen so with that thanks again and i declare the virtual meeting adjourned and look forward to seeing you again soon be safe be well bye bye