 Oh, I've never done the record before so this is new. No It is it says up in the corner. It's now recording Okay, that should be okay. Okay. Yeah, so Thank you so much for joining me in this amazing topic. Hopefully it's gonna be really really good and helpful Yeah, start off introduce yourself who you are what you do Okay, my name is Mikey and I am a survivor of medical abuse and sexual assault and I realized a few years ago I was living in the UK that there's actually a huge issue surrounding the issue of cervical screening and people like me with trauma and I started to see a lot of You know very not very kind Conversations online and I decided I wanted to change that so me and a friend of mine started a little Organization that's just the two of us called the wrong side of the speculum Which we talked about issues surrounding screening and doctors appointments specifically with medical abuse and sexual violence survivors and so we're trying to you know make changes to how this issue is viewed and Really educate medical professionals especially on how they can do better So that is kind of our story and why I'm here today. That's amazing. Yeah and Definitely, I think you're doing an amazing work from your Twitter and things like that I love that you're tackling these things. It's definitely it's something I do as well like anything I see if there's a gap in the NHS or whatever I try and tackle it and try and create change And this is definitely why I wanted to talk to you and because it's obviously something that we're missing and I Don't know any of my patients feeling like that. If that was me I definitely wouldn't want to feel like that if I was the patient of us if I was on the other end of the speculum like your So, yeah, so yeah, this is why we'll have these conversations basically, but yeah, thank you so much for helping us with this And thank you for you know being so willing to listen and to have this conversation Okay, so Let me find my questions, or do you want to start or should you want me to start? I guess you can do one and then I'll do one and we'll do it like that. Okay. That sounds good. Oh Actually, I've got it on my phone haven't I? Struggling here Yeah, I have my laptop set up right now on top of a bin for my dog's food. Oh Okay So first question that I thought would be a good one to ask you if you come to what obviously answering these things What your personal experiences of having a cervical screening? I know you briefly talked about having a bad experience So it'd be really nice for you to talk about that if you feel comfortable and yeah, absolutely Yeah, so I kind of like discovered this was an issue when I was about 18 years old living in America Basically, I wanted to go get on birth control and I was very rudely informed I should say by a doctor that I would have to have a cervical screening before he would let me get on birth control and I informed him like hey, I'm actually not comfortable with that at all Can I just like have the birth control like I don't see why this is an issue and He ended up telling me no and so I left I went home And I did not go back for a very long time because that experience like kind of traumatized me a little bit Because he was very much trying to sort of coerce me into doing it Mm-hmm, and I felt like I wasn't being respected and that discouraged me from even going to the doctor for a very long time and Then finally I started like researching The issue more and realize that a lot of other women were actually having the same problem And for a very long time I thought I was kind of like alone and kind of like the odd one out in the weird one because I felt like this and I just Didn't want to do it and everybody kept telling me like oh, it's not a big deal. It's not a big deal It's fine, but it wasn't fine to me. Yeah, and nobody really understood why I felt like I was you know being Coerced into doing this basically and Then upon being in the UK I Realized that it's also a big issue there and The same thing happened all over again where a doctor told me You know you have to do this and just try to coerce me into doing it Yeah, and all these doctors were male doctors. So that of course made it more uncomfortable for me I decided to find a female thinking that would change things and it really didn't they just kept trying to Coerce me again and again and again and eventually I sort of gave in and attempted and I couldn't do it and I had a very intense PTSD reaction It was a very bad situation for me. I was having very negative thoughts very just Horrible mental health for a long time after that point and I felt like I was sort of weird and broken and It it was very depressing for me And I felt like I was never going to be like a normal person And it took me a very long time to realize that other people with my trauma and in my situation feel very similar And we're just kind of being sort of swept underneath the rug and ignored and Even since then even now at 26 I have still not had a good experience with You know screening and doctors trying to get me to do it Because really all I wanted was to just have my consent respected. I Was completely willing to talk about it with them And I might have even gone through with it if it hadn't been for the fact that they just refused to respect me Mmm So I kind of never had a good experience with it And that's what inspired me to want to change that for other people So other young girls that were in my situation wouldn't have to feel what I was feeling and Kind of give them a safe space to come talk about it As most spaces online are unfortunately not safe spaces to discuss that. Yeah And I think it's a really important thing to discuss because I don't know if you've seen the recent Interests that came out but 97% of women in the UK are survivors of sexual violence or gender-based violence So I think it's very important that I mean 97% is the vast majority So it's important that we hear those people and that we understand their experiences. Yeah, definitely Well, thank you for that It's me I don't even know what the logic would be of them trying to get you to have a smear before giving you birth control That's just you be just Bluntly honest with you in the in the US. I think it has a lot to do with being able to charge extra. Oh, yeah I think that's like a big inspiration Making a little bit of extra cash. Yeah Problem that's that's yeah, that's just blew my mind that actually I can't believe it's I think there's like a misconception in the United States because a lot of women have it yearly. Yeah And I think there's like a misconception that like, oh my god You're gonna die if you don't have this year. Yeah, and we'll kind of freak out about it and get very Hushy essentially. Oh That's not good. Yeah, because in the UK we do it we three yearly Yes, and then five yearly when you go to 50 and then it stops when you 64 That was quite like a culture shock to me It's like, oh my god, what do you mean? It's not every year. What are you like? It's kind of on a thing. Yeah, and you know that every other country as well I think it is yearly because we've had people from like Poland and yeah I had a girl the other day actually from the Philippines and she had hers yearly as well Yes, but we know we've always been three yearly because apparently the research says that It's not needed yearly. So yeah, I don't know why that is and that um and that yearly can cause like more harm than good That's it. Yeah Yeah, so I don't get it either. I think it has something to do with money Possibly. Yeah, it does make a lot of sense now that you're saying that about Winnie Um, okay, so So with your um, so those experiences that you've had now has that just completely put you off now? ever having your cervical screening A little bit but I also kind of like made the decision that It might not be quite as necessary for me as it is for other people because I'm not like really a very sexual person Yeah And like just the research I've done shows that it would probably be more detrimental to me than it would be beneficial Especially mental health wise and I think it's like your mental health is just as important as your physical health Especially if you have a history of trauma or depression or having you know negative thoughts about your life and yourself I think that's just as important. Yeah, definitely. And I think I'm I'm at a greater risk to suffer more trauma and more You know depression and bad thoughts if I did do that versus if I just took the risk by not Yeah, and ultimately it is like a it is kind of a rare disease It's not like super common Not like diabetes or heart disease or something like that that affects so many people So that was kind of my logic and making the decision that I think I'm good. Yeah, I don't think I want to do it And you're absolutely allowed that choice as well. Yeah, and and like you've done the research and everything You're so clued up on everything Um, yeah, I mean if I was your yes, I'd be like, yeah, okay. Just sign her off. It's fine Yes, I wish more nurses were like, yeah, she knows what she's talking about And that's the thing I think in health care, um, I'm going off a little bit off topic kind of um, I think in health care with nurses and doctors, um We sort of I don't oh gosh, what's the word? Um, like disempower patients sometimes instead of Almost like a lot of them feel kind of like well, I went to school for this. So I know better Yeah, like I know better than this person who lives in this body because I went to school for it Even though I've never lived their experience I think that's like an issue That's it. Yeah, and um It's like, um, a doctor was saying to me the other day Or don't know if I'm allowed to say this I'm going to say anyway As our doctor was saying to me, um, oh this patient that we've got Our clinic, um, they want to do their own injections at home instead of coming in and having their injections I said, well, why can't they have their own if they if that's their choice? Why can't they do their own injections at home? And I said as long as we're bringing them in making sure they're safe give them the sharps boxes to put the injections in That there's no reason I said we should be empowering our patients to do things like that and then it's going to save appointment times and I think we worry so much about oh god. What what's the patient going to do like they're not stupid patients aren't silly Quite well informed That actually quite leads well into a question that I wanted to ask you. Oh, yeah What can you know about self sampling for cervical screening? Oh, yeah, so this is quite new, um in the uk I don't know if it's um out anywhere else yet And uh, you can pay for it in the us What? Yeah, you can go on the internet There's an app called nerx nerx something like that I think it's in the uk as well But you can just like order your own self sampling thing and get it sent to you and you can test for each pv Yeah, okay. I need to look this up But yeah, when I was looking at this the new study that's been done at the minute I think it's just in london at the minute um And from what I can gather from just reading that it's going to be Just like a swab like if you were doing an sti sort of test it just be a Do yourself and send it off. Yeah, and then it tests for the human papillomavirus Um, but then if it was positive then they would send you to have a full screening. I think by the sounds of it Yeah, I think that's the idea behind it. Yeah, but it sounds good. I think it sounds amazing It helps so much. I think definitely I think it would be extremely beneficial if they can, you know, implement it on a full scale Some countries actually use that as like their main screening method Wow, I I believe the dutch do it Yeah, and maybe sweden. I think might do it as well that they just have like their main cervical screening program is just You know doing the self sampling and then if there's a problem then they go and investigate it And I think that's how it should be done everywhere. That's it. It's just sounds amazing and Like you said, it'd be so beneficial and it's going to empower patients like we were just talking about definitely Yeah, and I I think that would increase the uptake a lot more too Which that's like what all these organizations say they want to do like eva peel all those they say oh, we want to increase the update But then why aren't you talking about the actual reasons? The uptake is so low. Yeah, that's it It really just like boggles my mind They said Sorry There's so many like research papers and stuff like that on barriers of uptake of cervical screening But why isn't anyone doing anything about it? Yeah, and not only that What actually like made me and my friend start our organization Was a survey Joe cervical cancer trust did in 2018 that they in my opinion botched They were supposedly conducting research on what the barriers were But I took the survey myself. I still have screenshots of me taking the survey and They didn't really ask about barriers like trauma or being a survivor like at all It was almost like the questions were sort of Rigged to either weed people to believe people not going were just uneducated about it Or that they were just like too embarrassed about it to do it Yeah, that's and it It was kind of upsetting to see as somebody who does like face real barriers that are not just like oh, I'm a little embarrassed Or oh, I don't understand it There was just like no, I just had to like put other on all the questions because none fit me They were never about like my experience three experiences of many other people It was just like oh, you're embarrassed or you're just not educated That's yeah They need to yeah, they need to look into that. I think because that's not good. Yeah, I think they do And I mean joes has been doing a lot better lately But in the past they've been sort of problematic And I think it is them doing better is due to people like us kind of calling them out saying hey, that's not right You guys need to do better. You need to improve this Yeah And sometimes that's what it takes as well. Maybe maybe I don't know. They didn't realize they were doing it wrong or They weren't including people or I don't know And sometimes it's possible because I think they kind of did the same thing with the gay and lesbian community They were kind of like not including that group of people in any other research, which was kind of At a detriment to that community and then once they realized hey Maybe we should include these people and they started including them more research came out. Yeah, that's true I don't know if you know seb. He did a He's transgender. He's transgender. Yeah, and he did a peaceful. Yeah, joes trust He did an amazing piece and I think it was when I saw that piece. I was like, oh gosh This has really opened my eyes now to a lot of things actually Yeah, definitely But yeah more needs to be done on all of it Yeah Okay, what else So my next question is just talking more about language um, so like when people are trying to get you to do your smear or Whatever experience you've had like what sort of language do you think is really unhelpful or offensive? I would say Never use the word relax It's like as a rule of thumb don't use that word That is a very very common trigger word and a word that a lot of us heard during abuse or an assault Yeah, so our brain is going to automatically connect that word to like hey, I am in an unsafe situation I am in danger. It's completely unhelpful. Just telling somebody to relax is not really going to make them relax anyway So it's like just avoid the word relax Avoid like talking about spreading your legs things like that instead like let your legs fall open Like lower your hips things like that that kind of Basically make it sound like a medical procedure and not a sexual experience. Yeah Because I think a lot of medical professionals make the mistake of using words that they might think are being very helpful But in actuality is very detrimental to the patient And is probably making the experience way more traumatic than it needs to be for them. Yeah There is actually a account called the feminist midwife. It's run by a midwife and uh, I think she's a nurse as well And she has a whole thing I believe on her website and on her Twitter that is about Inclusive language and using helpful language versus things you just shouldn't say Yeah, so I recommend any medical professional watching this go learn from her Because she's really you know got it down to a science of being as helpful as possible and minimizing the delivery Oh, that's good. Yeah, definitely. I've heard of her on Twitter. I think I'm following her now I think you must have mentioned it and I followed her maybe when you mentioned it. Yeah Probably because I really do love her content and she's been very helpful Like in these conversations. I believe she's in the us But she has contributed a lot to teaching people About how their language affects people because I mean language affects a lot It's like our main method of communication with each other And if you can't communicate with your patients and in a helpful beneficial way, you might not be in the right profession Yeah, if you can't sort of learn what is helpful and what is unhelpful and triggering Maybe don't work directly with patients if you want to work in health care Yeah, as I mean as as nurses you guys have the power to either make it a Good experience or make it an absolutely horrible experience that will put somebody out going to the doctor for years Like it would be yeah, yeah, that's it Definitely um, it's funny actually when you were saying about um one of the trigger words being relaxed as well I think we we briefly spoke about it on twitter And then a few days later I was doing a cervical smear with this lady And when I'd finished I was putting the things away and she said oh and thank you for for not telling me to relax I just I remembered your comment. I was like, oh, I wonder if she's been through something and that's why she said that But I would never have thought of that if I hadn't had that conversation with you. So that was really interesting Yeah, it just yeah, it's I think a lot of the times It's not that medical professionals like want to be, you know bad to people. It's just that they don't get it Yeah, they've never experienced it And I think a lot of the times they get sort of defensive like we're talking about before when you tell them Hey, that's actually really unhelpful and could be very damaging to some people And this is how you can do it better They just think like oh, well, you're not a medical professional. You don't have this experience. So You don't matter your opinion doesn't matter It's not the way to not the way forward In health. Yeah, you should I think everything should be taken as a learning experience And if you do do something, you know wrong if you make someone uncomfortable, you should just say hey I'm really sorry. I did not realize that I can use this to do better in the future Definitely. Yeah. Well, like my um youtube video. So yeah, I'll just quickly explain. I haven't explained that at the start Um, but I did a youtube video for those of you don't know um on survival screening and there were some things I said in there that I just didn't realize and it just went And it wasn't until you pointed it out and you said actually this is really unhelpful and I was like, what? And then I watched it back and I was like, oh my god And I was actually mortified at the things that I was saying and I just didn't click and I didn't realize and I was like You didn't realize it. I completely deleted it. I like I need to do this. I was actually like deeply impressed with you that Like I was like bracing myself because I had no idea who you were or anything at that point So I was like, oh god. Oh god. She's gonna freak out. She's gonna freak out on me. No Coming to you like that's the experiences I've had with uh people Oh That like when I told me that's actually pretty helpful. Here's what you can say that would be better. They're just like No You're bad for bad human go away. And it's like stop it Educate yourself a little dude That's it. We're not gonna learn unless we recognize our Our own issues and the things that we do wrong and get wrong. So I mean everybody makes mistakes Everybody has flaws and things that they're not so good at and the things that they're really good at And just gotta learn from those mistakes. Yeah, definitely You gotta make them And you know, sometimes that mistake could be really detrimental or it could be just a little one Yeah, but what like really matters is how you go on and learn from that and how you do better for somebody else in the future Yeah, definitely. And that's hopefully the message we're gonna get across today Um, okay We might have covered the last one. What advice can you give to healthcare professionals to help with us? There's several things I would say that if They seem uncomfortable with like having the conversation about screening just stop having it Like try to sort of Bring it up to them engage their reaction kind of read the room and see how they're reacting And if they seem like really uncomfortable or like it's making them kind of triggered I would say just table the discussion for later And if they you know are open to talking about it and they say I'm actually not comfortable doing that right now just You know explain to them what the screening is what it entitles do your whole little spiel that you always do And then just ask them are you comfortable with it now? And if they say no, just Respect it. Yeah Don't kind of try to push them to do it Because that will again make them feel kind of coerced and kind of like they're being put in a similar situation Maybe if you stay experienced And they're not going to you know, trust you if you do that And of course watch your language Be careful about what you're saying and how you're saying it avoid trigger words Which you can probably find the list not only on the feminist midwife There's probably other places too that you can find like a list of the common trigger words So you know what they are and you can avoid them But I think it really comes down to just respect and inform pincen Yeah, you just have to Do what you can and then respect their decision And kind of acknowledge that if they decide they don't want to screen that is their decision too And like it should just be respected. They shouldn't be pressured Yeah, and of course from your mistakes Everybody's going to make them thisler And apologize when you do make a mistake Because I think a lot of especially doctors and nurses kind of make the mistake getting too defensive Almost like they're blaming the person for it versus just You know saying hey, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that. Yeah Yeah Yeah, probably how many people are open to actually talking about their issue with it and what they go through But we're just not given the opportunity Thank you That is all my questions All right, I'll ask you some of mine. I have to get down here and get my laptop back What are NHS nurses taught about informed consent in your experience? Um, so for us it's well what I've been taught and what I know Um, we have to give the patient all of the information about something so that they can make the choice whether to go for it or not Um, and that involves like the risks as well as the benefits. Um, yeah Is there any kind of like trauma informed care crash course with the NHS or are you guys just like expected to teach that to yourself? Um, do you know what this is the first I've heard of anything like this? Um I personally haven't had any training on that sort of topic at all um, the only Sort of brief sort of thing that I've found was when I was in sexual health and you'll sat there You're faced with it because that they're disclosing it to you and you're like, oh gosh, okay How do I handle this situation like no one tells you these sort of things? But definitely definitely if it's not out there already in the uk needs to be I think yes, I think that is a big part of like the issue with how Survivors have to deal with the stuff with cervical screening I think nurses and doctors just are not being taught this And unfortunately if we can't make a change to the actual NHS then I think they're just going to take the initiative to learn of themselves You know benefit their patients. They're just going to have to say hey, I'm not being taught this I need to learn it. I'm going to go do research But see and I think actually listening not only to other medical professionals But to actual people who have lived the experience would be helpful Yeah, definitely because I've I've seen a lot of nurses that I've like mentioned something to them say like oh, well, I'm a survivor as well So like I think I understand this but Even if you are a survivor, you're also still a nurse. Yeah, so for you like You do cervical screening seven times a week. It's not a thing like a big thing for you Which is just like oh, it must be Tuesday. Yeah for us It's like a huge deal that we have panic attacks about and we think about for weeks and we just have all these horrible feelings about it so even if Like you can be a survivor, but you're still a survivor who is a nurse So your perspective isn't formed by being a nurse and not just by being a survivor Yeah So I think it's really taking initiative to learn if the NHS is not going to teach you Yeah I guess this question is kind of already answered but I'll go ahead and ask it Do patients have the right to request a nurse who is trained in trauma-informed care? Well, if they can find one, yes That's kind of the thing it's like do they exist? Do they not? It's like the it's like aliens Like some people think they exist and others don't It'd be interesting to find out actually if what nurses are trained like if this is a thing out there that I just don't know about I have heard about one clinic that I believe there's one in london and Manchester, I'm not sure though. It's called the my body back project. Oh, yes It's supposed to be like very much Based around trauma-informed care for survivors, but I have also spoken to a couple people who had kind of negative experiences Okay, so I'm like a bit reluctant to recommend that because of that But I mean there's tons of people who say they had a really good experience too So it might just like come down to personal preference. I'm not really sure because I've never had the experience myself Yeah When I was looking at the website I was looking at this earlier actually as I was doing a little bit of research around different things um and on the website said they use a lot of volunteers so Who's um sort of training the volunteers and what sort of training that they get would be my question I think but it sounded really well first looked at it and said oh, yeah, this sounds really good I didn't even know this clinic existed um, yeah, but then who's training them what sort of training do they get in and Yeah, who knows and of course Every once in a while just like a kind of crappy person is going to slip through the cracks and you know Get in somewhere where it shouldn't be and that might be what happened with the experiences I was told about I'm not quite sure Is how invasive And traumatic cervical screening can be for survivors something that nurses are typically aware of and something that you discuss among yourself Or is it just kind of something that you're kind of clueless about you don't really understand it most of the time um for me um because I've worked in sexual health and I've seen sort of um sexual assault survivors and things like that from that perspective I'm a little bit more aware about it um But I don't know about other people because it's not something again. It's not really something that You talk about it's not something that you get training on or anything like that So i'm not sure to be honest, which is really bad um, but I know from my point of view I try and be respectful to all of my patients and um Sort of make sure that if they want a chaperone and things like that They can do that if they don't want this beer then that's fine and respecting that sort of decision. Yeah I think like the most important thing you can do Is just assume that every single patient that walks through your door might be a survivor Because they are for all you know and they might not feel this comfortable like comfortable disclosing that to you Well, like you're 97 of the stats say so so we should really be doing it that way I think yeah Yes, where did you first hear the term prom informed care? And what did you think of it when you did hear it? um Probably from you First time I heard of it. Um Yeah, that's Disappointing in the NHS horrible, isn't it? Oh gosh um Yeah, like that should be like one of the first things they teach you as a nurse and it's just kind of almost like full want Screening to be viewed as like this positive happy like rainbows puppy dogs kind of subject And they don't want to admit like hey, that's not how it is for a lot of people Yeah, you could sit there and say oh, it's just five minutes and it's just a little uncomfortable all you want But if that doesn't reflect the majority of experiences then you're just kind of Screaming into a void. Yeah, it's like repeating yourself like a burping record again and again and not benefiting anyone Which is unfortunate. Yeah If the patient tells you they don't want to participate in screening at all, what is your reaction? um I would be okay with it like we've said Everyone's got the choice and as long as i'm giving that patient all of the options and they've got The obviously capacity and everything to make their choice then that's up to them Um, and I know on I don't know if it's everywhere but on our system that we use There is an opt out button. So if someone wanted to just opt out of psycho screening for the rest of their lives I could tick that button and then that would be it Um, yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with it because it is patient choice. I'm not gonna force anyone No, definitely. Yeah, that is a good way to view it. I'm glad that some nurses do view it that way For me offing out was like a nightmare Oh It was really difficult. Nobody wanted to listen to me I spent literally hours on the phone getting lectured Just like again and again again one medical professional actually called me dumb Like to my face Yeah, that was a disappointing experience. Oh god It's just shocking Is in is ensuring that people understand inform consent and the risk can benefit something that is Really important to you and what about other nurses in your experience? Yeah, it's definitely important to me because it's something that I was always taught Like you always have to give the patient all of the options Um, because if you're doing something and you haven't given all of the options And you haven't documented or anything that you haven't given them options You know, I could be up against in court because it's sort of neglect or abuse I suppose in a way because you haven't given them all of the options to make that informed I have been in a courtroom for that. Oh my god Yeah, I was 17. Oh, wow I went after the hospital that initially caused my trauma. Oh gosh But yeah, but that's why this is why we have all the choices I can't speak for everybody else. Um, but I'm hoping that everyone out there would Definitely give patients options Obviously, it doesn't happen if you've been through that experience people having to do the choice and that's It's not okay It's not something that you just you're not trained to do. It's just it's you do it. It's not um It's not like a common sense thing. It's something that everyone should be doing as a standard Yeah, it's it's almost like whoever like came up with the training programs for bnhs And probably a lot of other like medical organizations I think they just kind of think well, that's common sense Why would anyone not do that and they don't realize that quite a few people completely lack common sense Some people just like need to be told everything and they're not being, you know, told how to Appropriately get informed consent and how to respect your patients and such So we need to stop treating it as a common sense thing and just treat it as everybody needs to be hospice Yeah, how much do you know about the potential risk and benefits of screening and What you do know about it. Did you learn from the nhs or did you learn on your own? Um, so all of my training was through like proper training. Um, so we had a three-day course that we had to attend Um, and then you'd obviously get the mannequin to practice just vical sampling and things like that on Um, and then I would have to supervise so I was alongside my mentor for Um five patients had to watch and see how they did it Um, and then they would watch me do in my bit to make sure I was doing everything. Okay. Um But yeah, so I'm sorry. That's a long way around to say it. I was taught through like proper training. Yes Yeah And like what did they teach you about the actual risk? Um, I think probably more the benefits were spoken about than the risks. Um, yeah I do think that is kind of an issue the benefits are over Like dramatized and overstated and the risks are kind of understated. Um Almost like the benefits are like put on a banner and then the risks are like a dirty little secret nobody needs to know about Is kind of how I think it's treated a lot of the times But yeah, you're right in a way because it was all about the benefits of cervical screening It's going to save lives and it's going to do this. Um, and then the risks were just like a little Here's the risks. That's okay. Yeah, it's like the fine print Almost it's like the fine print of a contract that you know, you sign it without reading it and then it's like, oh crap these risks are real Yeah, and what did what do you know about the risk of leap procedures? Oh, um, so as part of the training that I did we had to do a visit to corpuscopy Um, and I went in I sat with the consultant. He was he was really good to be honest He was very pro women's health. I was like, wow, this guy's amazing Like he's awful women's health supporting the women in the hormones and he was really really good to be honest Um, but yeah, he went through all the lillettes and how they do it and I saw a procedure and things like that um, and they went through like the risks of severe bleeding infections Um potential can cause miscarriage as well Oh that was talked about? Yeah, this guy yeah That's really good that he was talking about it. Yeah, because I've actually spoken quite a bit with somebody on twitter who she had a leap procedure and You know had a miscarriage and she was not warned that that would be a risk beforehand So it kind of like came as like she said that she would never have done it Yeah, she would have known miscarriage was a risk. She knew she was pregnant going in and she just wasn't told Yeah Unfortunately lost her baby because of that lack of information Because surely she could have waited until she gave birth and then had the treatment. Maybe I don't think a few would have Yeah, I'm not sure that probably would have been fine, but she just wasn't informed. That was a risk. She was told to be fine It goes back to informed consent, doesn't it she wasn't really informed Yeah, nope She was informed of the stuff that make her want to do it and then not the stuff that make her not want to Basically, no and was like potential nerve damage and chronic pain ever like discussed with leap procedures like the risk of it um Pain yes, they talked about pain and they used the iodine and things like that to stop for infection things like that afterwards um Nerve damage I don't remember anything being mentioned about nerve damage to be honest Yeah word you kind of led to believe that the cervix doesn't contain nerves Didn't even think about it, but it must contain something because there's some feeling there Yes, yes, that is the whole thing There's actually a lady on twitter her name is k. Orson and she wrote a whole book about her experience with it And you know basically most people performing colposcopies and leap procedures Don't really acknowledge that there's nerves in the cervix for some reason. Yeah. Oh, there must speak. Yeah, because when I saw it happen they um Used anesthesia on the cervix. Yeah, so there must be nerves. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's kind of like Why are you guys trying to say there's no nerves, but then using anesthesia which lets you know that there has to be nerves there Yeah, yeah It's kind of like they're just Denying something very obvious That's true. And with anything like if you were to get an implant for example contraception They talk about nerve damage and bruising that can happen. So why wouldn't they do that with the cervix? That's that's really good point Hmm There's a lot of very Especially with the statistics and stuff just stuff that doesn't necessarily add up Like if you really start to think about it, it just ends up not making a whole lot of sense. Yeah Yeah, I don't know. I was going to say about the benefits outweighs the risk But then they should still be given informed consent and telling them all of this About some dangers. Yeah Exactly Like I was told the whole time I lived in the UK that the cervical screening program saves 5,000 lives per year But if only about 3,000 people are going to Even get near cervical cancer. How how is that possible that it saves 5,000? It's a good question. It almost like it doesn't add up when you really start to think about it. It's like, what are what are they saying? What do you think we could do to encourage other nurses to be more open-minded about being trauma informed? Oh What can we do? I think just Spreading the message that definitely needs to be more training 100% on these sort of things um I think just the use of social media as well to sort of Target, maybe the healthcare professionals to say, oh, did you know about this? How are you more aware about this? Um, and I know definitely is the cervical screening awareness week coming up. I'm thinking now what can I tweet now? Yes, sort of hopefully inform people and hopefully make some sort of change out there Are nurses typically aware of how many times late procedures are actually unnecessary? Yeah, I wasn't um, I'm not sure about That one to be honest. Yeah Um, it's not something that's discussed. I don't think I haven't seen it anywhere about unnecessary procedures or anything like that Um, whether they're thinking again Does does the risk outweigh the benefit to benefit outweigh the risk or I don't know. Yeah. Yeah I think the big part of this problem is that There's an automatic assumption that for every single person universally that the benefit is going out with the risk And I just don't think like the person's medical history the person's like sexual history The person's mental health is ever like really taken into consideration. Like whether or not it would be detrimental or good for them Yeah So I think that is definitely something that needs to be taken into consideration more frequently That is And again, they should really if they're going to do a proper job be getting all of the medical history and Getting informed consent before even starting something like that. Um So yeah, and possibly possibly find a way to Let the patient know that they are a survivor if they do have a history of trauma They can come forth that and maybe Have a way to do that where they feel safe like maybe put it on their paperwork or something So they don't have to like physically say the words this happened to me I think that would be really helpful because I know I was not, you know, comfortable disclosing my history with those Promises to anybody. Yeah, especially not a complete stranger that I just met Which is another like important thing to realize is that like The person you're performing a smear on Doesn't know you from Adam So like for all they know even if you're the nicest kindest person in the world for all I they know You might not be yeah And you might be very judgmental. You might be very unaccepting so they might not feel comfortable coming forward about things It's almost like a thing. I saw a while ago of a nurse wearing like an lgbtq flag And then people felt comfortable, you know coming out to her and letting her know these things because she had that flag on her telling them Hey, I'm accepting of this It's almost like we need something like that. Yeah We're trauma survivors too. So they will know like hey, this is a safe person. This is a safe space. Yeah Sadly a lot of surgeries and clinics just are not a safe place for survivors at all. Yeah So And Have you ever do you like follow anybody like eve appeal or joe's trust or anything like the work they do? Yeah, I follow um joe's trust Yes, and the feminist midwife. I now follow I don't know if I kind of like Kind of like notice some of the problematic posts they make and you know thought hey, that's not really helpful Like has it ever like clocked? Have you ever like clocked it on any of those accounts like hey, that might not be helpful Um, I think I'm starting to recognize a lot more now now that I'm looking into things and like talking to seb as well About his experiences. Yeah talking to you Um, you do start to notice more But before speaking to anybody about this and not really thinking about it It's just like another post and you're not really sort of registering what the words are and I think that is an issue that like for me Because of my personal experiences. I automatically clock it. Yeah Like when someone's not being trauma-informed enough and they're not being sensitive enough, I'm like, oh, hey, hey bad That's bad. Yeah, but I don't think most people do that and I think that's Something that could be improved upon a lot, especially with eva peel in particular Like we've had some we've had some run-ins with them in the past. Oh gosh And they um for I believe it was I believe that was in january. It might have been circle cancer awareness month. Yeah, they made a post that was kind of like a sexualized graphic Oh, it was like very sexual And Let me see if I can actually find what the graphic said so I can Yeah Understand like the context Okay, the graphic is kind of an illustration of Like a woman's outline with her leg spread and like the vagina is a heart Okay, and the the um The thing like the caption on it is have no fear get your smear And a lot of especially with the caption they put with it a lot of survivors were like a little bit Thinking that wasn't okay. Yeah, and a lot of people were sort of triggered. Yeah Just like the post in general. Yeah, and I reached out to them personally my personal Twitter account We reached out to them on your outside the speculum account My friend reached out to them on her personal account and several other Patient advocates reached out as well. So hey, this is like kind of upsetting Like this is a little bit triggering for survivors to see And we would honestly recommend that you delete this and apologize for it because obviously multiple people are upset Yeah and their response Was to basically say that they told me I was the only one that complained They told my friend she was the only one that complained And even though like you can look on You could look on the post And the whole thing was just like people saying hey, that's a little weird. That's a little too sexual Maybe don't do that. Yeah, and they're just like denying it like oh no no no no no you're the only person complaining It's fine. It's everybody else. You're just weird And so when they kind of refused to delete it we started a petition To kind of try to make them You know see like hey, we're not the only one with a problem with this. This is kind of a triggering issue And we got several hundred signatures on the petition. Yeah And their response was to essentially Tell us that by using the graphic on the petition. We were violating their copyright The CEO of the appeal threat to personally sue me. Oh my god And it was just like oh geez Oh god, but then if they posted that publicly on twitter, it's no longer their property Not only was it no longer their property because they posted it publicly on twitter. It was not their property to begin with It was a graphic that was used in the vagina museum I don't know if you've heard of that. It was a graphic that I volunteered made for the vagina museum Oh, okay, and they just like got permission to use it And tried to say they were gonna, you know, sue us For really posting their graphic and it was just nonsense. Yeah And it really opened the eyes to How much people just don't understand this issue. Yeah And how much the organizations just like they care more about right they do the spreading You know being drivers Eve appeals especially bad at it They've posted a lot of things that Like I cringe reading their twitter sometimes because oh my god And time and time again, we've reached out to them And nothing changes with joe's trust. We've reached out a lot and things have improved They gradually started to kind of improve and they stopped posting The four like 90 percent of joe's trust posts were about how it's all about embarrassment And like embarrassment is the biggest barrier Yeah And that started to change after we started reaching out to them and telling them Hey, this is actually a pretty important thing that you guys should be talking about and again with sebb I think that Was important that they did that post with him And also she does work with eve appeal. So I would prefer she didn't do that but your cervix She is a survivor and an advocate who is specifically offering peer support for survivors Oh, that's nice. So she's doing a lot of really good work with that And I think that she has changed a lot of people's minds about a lot of stuff So I would recommend anybody interested in this to go follow her I believe she might be on hiatus right now because she had some cancer issues She actually had cancer for self But she does a lot of really great work the feminist midway I would say just avoid eve appeal I'm not following them. So it's okay Yes, I would not you know recommend them There are another one of those organizations that I think Kind of want to be right and make themselves look good And they don't particularly Care that they might be doing damage as well It's a shame Yes And another person that I would say to avoid would be the smear campaign That is like a it is a very new initiative run by a guy who sadly lost his wife to cervical cancer And he is How do I say this nicely? Extremely closed-minded. Okay. He does not want to talk about trauma or anything So there's an abundance of organizations that don't want to talk about this Not enough that are like open About it, which is why it meant a lot to me when I reached out to you and you were so open to hearing it Yeah Is it just baffles me that people are so closed about it when we should be making these conversations and talking about it um, we should I mean if it was something like Oh, I don't know a learning disability Like we'd be talking about it. We've been helping people if someone got offended it would be discrimination. So Yes, why wouldn't the same with you know Racial issues. It's the same thing like if like I think Something like 85 percent of sexual violence survivors don't want to attend If it was like 85 percent of black people Then if you didn't want to talk about that you would be being discriminatory But for some reason when it's an issue like sexual violence or trauma, it's no longer discrimination to sweep us underneath a rug and I really don't think that's fair This is just as important of a conversation as lgdq stuff and yeah, so justice stuff Definitely really it confuses me a lot why so many people are so Always minded about it. Yeah But you are doing one of or you are one of the good ones and doing good work. I'm gonna try I mean You know being open to having this conversation. You're already doing so much better than so many others Yeah, that's good. Yeah And hopefully we can create some uh twitter posts and things like that and raise more awareness Hopefully as well with it um And i'm in a group as well with Some gp nurses from across the uk as well like in a whatsapp group And i've told them that i'm doing this with you today and they're really excited about it And they want to see the video and learn So that was They're a nice bunch to be fair. They're they're quite good and they're open to change and things like that So they're they're a good a lot Like nurses, especially your ones just coming in for course Are all willing to listen I think a lot of the ones that have you know been doing this for 30 20 40 years are a little bit jaded At this point, they're just kind of like i've done it this way for my higher career and i don't want to change now Yeah, that's true I have seen nurses like that as well that are just in autopilot mode They've been doing it for years and they won't accept any change to no matter how positive They're just like no, this is me. This is how it is You don't like to go away. Yeah. Yeah, this closed-mindedness essentially. That's true But there are a lot of people that do want to see change and a lot of people that are open to it And a lot of people talking about it online now. Yeah, which is good. We should be having these conversations Yes, that is one of the best things about the internet is that we can kind of like Almost force people to have these conversations. Yeah Yes, if it's just like a group of friends at lunch talking about it, that's not really going to you know provide systemic change That's just some friends talking But if you can put it on the internet and like make nurses see it and make doctors see it And make these organizations like joe's trust and eve appeal see it Then that can make real change. Yeah Because even just like one person now, maybe the next person that walks into your exam room You're gonna think she might be a survivor. I should just automatically do this. Yeah Versus before you might have thought just another cervical screening. It's fine. Yeah, I mean autopilot mode Yes, because like I said for you, it's a day that is why for us. It's like a big deal Yeah No, I'm so thankful that you're willing to have these talks. So I'm so thankful for you for reaching out and Making your comment and then yeah getting in touch It's just really important to me that I tackled that because I don't want anyone to ever feel like like that because that's not nice and No one should ever feel like that. So hopefully and and I mean I know you never intended to hurt or offend anyone. Most people don't yeah And they just don't realize like maybe the language they're using is Triggering or offensive for some people. Maybe they're not being as accepting as they could be Because again, it's just like autopilot mode. Yeah Like this is just like an everyday part of your job. It's just The same way I might you doing my dishes or cleaning up after my dog It's just like a part of life that I have to do. Yeah And I don't think some medical professionals realize that for other people. It's actually a very big deal. Yeah, definitely And how much, you know power they have over the experience we have as patients Yeah, and hopefully we can create better experiences. Hopefully that would be the goal. Yes Hopefully, you know create some change with the actual training process of nurses Because that would probably go a long way If it's like It is like required for you to have this conversation. Yeah, like you're not getting out of it This is part of your classwork. Basically, you have to have this talk. Yeah That'll be good but every Every movement every little bit of systemic change that's ever happened in the world The start of one or two people It's true. It's the ripple effect Yep, I do believe that we can make changes if we just try Definitely and if we get more open-minded people Like you were when I commented This was a really important conversation and thank you so much for being open to it. No, thank you. Thank you so much It's been lovely. It's been really nice actually. It's been really nice Conversations and really good important things as well. So yeah, it's good