 Okay, we're recording. Thank you. Good evening. It is January 9th of the new year. This is a regular meeting of the town council, and in just a few moments, we'll include the election of officers. On November 7th, 2022, an act was signed into law which extends the suspension of certain provisions of the open meeting law. This allows us to continue holding meetings remotely without a quorum of the council physically present. But I would like to point out that tonight, we have nine councillors in the room, and we welcome you all, 10. 10 councillors in the room. Thank you. This meeting is accessible in real time by Zoom, by phone, in-person, because we are allowed to have an audience, and on Amherst Media. In fact, we welcome two people to the audience tonight. Thank you. Given that we have a quorum of the council present, I'm calling the January 9th, 2023 town council meeting to order at 6.35. I'll call upon each councillor by name. At that time, you should unmute your mic and say present. This will indicate that you can hear us, and we can hear you. Please remember to then mute your mic again. Shalini Bow-Millan. Present. Patty Angelis. Present. Anna Devlin-Goth here. Present. Lynn Griesmer is present. Mandy Jo Hanneke. Present. Anika Lopes. Present. Michelle Miller. Present. Dorothy Pam. Here. Pam Rooney. Present. Kathy Shane. Here. Andy Steinberg. Present. Jennifer Todd. Present. Alicia Walker. Present. Thank you. There's no chat room for this meeting. If you have technical issues, please let Athena and me know, and we will do what we can to correct that. If you want to make a comment or ask a question, please click the raise hand button. And later on, we will go through any other announcements. With that, I am going to turn this over to the clerk. I would like to note that at this point, there are 19 people as panelists and 24 people in the audience on Zoom. And I'm sure there are many others watching this on Amherst Media. Athena. Thank you, President Griesmer. Thank you. I'm just going to go over the procedures for electing the president briefly, and then we'll get started. So first, I'll open the floor for nominations. The nominations don't require a second. Counselors may nominate themselves. When a counselor is nominated, they'll be asked if they accept the nomination. When there are no further nominations, I will ask the nominees, if they'd like to make a statement, they have up to two minutes. And then other counselors will have an opportunity to make a comment for up to two minutes, just one comment each. And then for those of you in the room, you each have a little stack of written ballots. I'll collect your written ballots. And for those of you on Zoom, you'll send your votes via email. I'll tally the votes and announce the results and swear in the president. If a nominee doesn't receive seven votes, then we'll begin the process again with accepting nominations. Are there any questions before we get started? OK, I'm opening the floor for nominations. Counselor Pam. I nominate Lynn Griesmer. Lynn, do you accept your nomination? I do. Are there any other nominations? Anika. I was going to nominate Lynn as well. Thank you. Are there any other nominations? All right, Lynn, you have an opportunity to make a statement for two minutes. Please go ahead. Thank you. First, I'd like to thank all of you for understanding and supporting throughout this year. There seems to be many bad examples of governing in the country right now. But frankly, with our spirit of cooperation, I think we stand out as a group of people that can, in fact, govern. In the years ahead, in the year ahead, we have much to do. That includes advancing the goals we've set for the town manager. Well, we haven't quite set them yet, but we're getting there. And making sure that we support our diverse community and our town staff from the town manager through all departments. In the coming year, we have many critical issues that we will all need to work on together. First and foremost is the passage of a debt exclusion override for a new elementary school. This is not a one-person job. This is a many-person job. We need to determine our next steps regarding the Jones Library, make progress on DPW, fire, and EMS, and many other capital issues. In addition to that, we have to balance a budget. We have to update and pass some bylaws and regulations, many of which we discussed in the state of the town address. And we may be seeking special legislation. It's quite a list and only scratches the surface. Another goal for the coming year is helping the council to do its work efficiently and effectively, in part that simply involves the mechanics of how we all approach our meetings, focus on priorities, use time wisely, and ask ourselves if more really needs to be said. It also means recognizing the district distinct roles of the council, the manager, other boards, and committees. For the council president especially, it means helping each of you achieve your goals by learning what you want to accomplish and helping you bring your issues forward, even if I don't agree with them. Often that can be asking for amendments and motions in advance. Please help Athena and me to do this. With that, I have to run out and write two minutes. Thank you, Lynn. I'm just going to go through each councilor by name and ask if there are any comments. So you'll have up to two minutes if you'd like to make a comment. Shall any? No. Pat? No. Anna? Mandy? No. Anika? Michelle? I just want to say thank you, Lynn, for your willingness to run for this role again, it's a really challenging position and although we've made a lot of progress, you've led us through a challenging year. So I very, very much thank you and also the piece that you said about helping counselors to reach their goals. I feel really grateful to you for your capacity to do that and I have felt that personally. So thank you. Dorothy? Pam? Taffy? Yeah, I just, Lynn, I think you've already heard this and you said it in your statement but the one area that I think we all can improve on is our agendas and the time spent in meetings and to me that's in part, if they're just too many items and any of them need intense discussion, come back to us and say add a meeting or spread out the length of time. I mean, I just, we often are doing things that I don't think we have to do at that time. Sometimes we can't avoid it but since you aren't more in control of figuring that out than the rest of us, we would all appreciate it if we can do that this year. Got it. Andy? Jennifer? I'll say no and also heeding Lynn's advice so does more really need to be said. Thank you. Alicia, would you like to make a statement? No, thank you. Okay, so for those of you in the room, please fill out your paper ballots and those of you online, please email your response to my email asking for your vote. Just waiting on one more response. The vote was 12 in favor, none against and one abstention. Councillor Ball-Millen voted for Griezmer, D'Angelo's voted for Griezmer, Devlin Goethier voted for Griezmer, Griezmer voted for Griezmer, Hannake voted for Griezmer, Lopes voted for Griezmer, Miller voted for Griezmer, Pam voted for Griezmer, Rooney voted for Griezmer, Shane voted for Griezmer, Steinberg voted for Griezmer, Tau voted for Griezmer and Walker abstained. Congratulations, Lynn. I'm gonna come over and swear you in. I'm gonna swear me in. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the faithfully and impartially perform all duties incumbent upon you as council president? I do. For the town of Amherst. Thank you. Congratulations, Lynn. So I'm just gonna do one small little paragraph because I think it sums up what some of you have just said to me as well. If there's a single goal that sums up my hopes for the year ahead, it is to focus on what unites us in strengthening our community. Amherst is a remarkable place with a deep reservoir of commitment to progress. We are eager to move forward and to serve as a positive example, but it doesn't happen by itself. The council sets the tone and frames the agenda. There will always be differences, but if we can model how to move forward despite those differences, the community will respond. Thank you. So now I get to run the nominations for vice president. So again, we'll go through the same process. I'll ask for nominations. The nominations do not require a second. Counselors may nominate themselves. And each council, after each nomination, I will ask the counselor nominated if they accept the nomination. And then we'll go through the same process. Pat DeAngeles, you have your hand up. Yeah, I nominate counselor Devlin Galt here. Okay. Anna, do you accept the nomination? I do. Elisha, you have your hand up. Thank you. I would like to nominate counselor Michelle Miller. Michelle, do you accept the nomination? Yes. Okay. Are there any further nominations for the position of vice president? Then we're going to ask each of the nominees to make a brief statement and of two minutes. We'll start with Anna Devlin Gauthier. Thank you. The role of vice president is an interesting one. On paper, it's one sentence. The vice president shall preside in the absence of the president. What I have found over the past year is that the role of vice president depends on how the person in the role approaches the collaborative work of this council. While she has not needed it often, I have stepped in for the president both at meetings and town events. I have also seen through opportunities for increased transparency and awareness with counselors. I have encouraged more frequent and written presidents' reports, including a list of meetings the president has attended. I have expanded participation in meetings with our legislators and created opportunities for the council to share any specific topics they would like to see addressed prior to those meetings. Currently, I'm working with the president to expand those opportunities to engage with our legislators as a council. I attend agenda-setting meetings and raise my voice to ensure that the direction of the council reflects the perspectives of all 13 of us, regardless of my own or the president's point of view. I bring a level-headed and informed approach. I seek to understand and I remove my ego from the work we do. I come prepared. I welcome feedback. I challenge and I push back without an agenda of my own in service of moving items through our process. I am comfortable with disagreement and I do not let it cloud my eagerness for collaborative work. We need to be able to work with people who we have disagreed with even vehemently in the past. I have done that and I will continue to do that. The vice president must help to move items forward. They must have a clear understanding of the rules, the processes and the issues and be able to collaborate with and work with all members and take into account their learnings. I have shown that in the past year and I look forward to your trust, support and feedback and continuing to deepen and demonstrate that in the year ahead. Thank you. Okay. Michelle? It's a hard act to follow. And I want to say that my decision, first and foremost, to run for vice president tonight is not at all meant to undermine Anna's leadership. I think that Anna has done a fantastic job. I nominated Anna. And I think Anna would continue to do a fantastic job if elected tonight. The reason that I have chosen to run is I was approached over the past month or so by a few members of the community. And then more recently been approached by more members of the community asking for me to step up into this role. So I will say from the one line official standpoint of what the vice president does, I do have the privilege of time. So I am in a position if it were ever needed to step into the role of president. I also believe that I bring the skill set and experience to chair. So I've learned so much chairing the African Heritage Reparation Assembly and the governance organization and legislation committee. I believe I am a fair and honest chair and diligent chair of those committees. But the more unofficial leadership role that the vice president plays is what I wanted to talk a little bit more about. And to say that I believe that I would bring balance. So our wonderful leadership team over the past year has done an excellent job of leading. However, on most issues, they have voted the same and they have held similar, if not the same views. And so what I believe that I would bring as the VP is a healthy balance. And I believe that it would be generative and healthy for the council to have my leadership in the vice president role. I also bring a very healthy sense of engagement and healthy and diligent engagement, I believe. I have very good connections in the community. I have earned the trust of many members of the community that have otherwise felt unheard. And I believe this year, that's going to be particularly important, especially as we move forward with this debt exclusion and asking our community to approve a vote so that we can have our beautiful new school. So I would imagine myself being in arm there and working alongside other counselors as well as community members to move that. And of course, all of the other goals that we have as a council. So thank you. Thank you. I'm going to ask the town clerk, I mean, I'm sorry, the clerk of the council, if she will call the roll and each counselor excluding the nominees may make a brief statement on the election of the vice president. Shelly. T-Shulker head now. Pat. Yeah, I want to acknowledge Michelle's hard work this year, but I also recognize in Anna, there is a fiercely independent young woman who has really driven herself into the work of the council and has flourished there. She is collaborative. And that's something that many of us are struggling with. We think we are, but we leave partnerships when something else makes us angry at another counselor. I don't see that happening from Anna. What I see is someone who's dedicated to working with everybody on the council. I see somebody who calls Lynn to task in the best possible way. And I see someone that I know that I can go to to clarify issues that I'm struggling with, issues where we disagree as well as issues where we agree. I think you are a gift as many of the new counselors are a gift to this council and I hope that you'll make it to vice president again. Lynn? I decline at this point to say anything. Mandy? So I want to echo everything that Pat just said. And I want to add to my support for Anna that in four years or three years of prior vice presidents, two of myself and one of Evan who tried to get Lynn to open up meetings. Anna's been the only one that has been able to do so. And that I think shows a fierce ability on Anna's behalf to help this council become more transparent and to bring more names and more views into the room and other, any room. And so it's one of the reasons I'm going to support Anna. Annika? Dorothy? Well, first of all, I will say that this is not about whether Anna has been doing a good job. This is really about a sense of balance and perception of the public of the council. People talk to us all the time and they see a council which seems to be divided in a certain way and votes can be predicted with great accuracy on most issues. Many of us are concerned about who is going to run in the future for the council. The public has seen meetings that go on and on and on with issue after issue. And they, I think everyone in one of us in this room have people come up to you all the time and say thank you for your service. Thank you for your work. Thank you for your work because they see how much work it is. So in terms of making the job are they a more friendly kind of thing. I think it would be better if it weren't seen as quite so political. And I know this sounds kind of contradictory but one way to make it seem less political less like a well-oiled machine is in fact to acknowledge that there are often two sides, three sides, four sides to an issue and that having Michelle as vice president would be opening that up. So that is really the light in which I am supporting Michelle. Both are young women who are incredibly intelligent tremendously hardworking and to be trusted. Okay, but I'm talking about a perception of more balance in the community. So thank you. Ann. I think Dorothy said, but I was gonna say pretty, pretty well. I really thank Anna for all the hard work this year. I look for an opportunity to, I've watched Michelle in her dealings and she is so overtly inclusive that I think it is probably the characteristic that I think we need for the year going forward. Kathy. I'll pass. Andy. So this is gonna be one of the most difficult votes that I'm gonna have to take probably tonight. So I just wanna say that we're choosing between two very good people who are seeking this position. And I have worked with both of them in some capacity this year that I can really speak from the experience that I've had with Anna on TSO and watching how she has taken on the role of helping TSO to analyze and work through some incredibly complex topics that weren't always very interesting but required somebody to do a lot of work. And in particular, I'm gonna pick on the water and sewer regulations because she broke them into pieces and enabled us to talk about each piece and understand each piece as we go through. And Michelle, who has done some extraordinary work, I just complimented her the other day on the even-handed manner in which she ran the last TOL meeting when she was trying to help us get through a topic that's not yet completed, which is the town manager goals. So we have two very good candidates. I'm going to stick with the right to have a secret ballot vote, but I wanted to just say that I am gonna vote for one of the candidates, but I want both candidates to know that I think very highly of them and hope to work collegially as a council together, however this ends. Thank you, Jennifer. I would echo Ham, Dorothy and Andy, although I haven't been on TSO. I have said it in meetings, it's incredible how quickly you move the sewer and water. I've never seen anything go that fast through the council, but I do think that there is a need for balance and that that would be that the community would appreciate that in the leadership of the council. And I have been on GOL and have thoroughly admired Michelle's leadership on that committee. And I think she always with a very gentle touch really holds her own and is always seeking a way to reach collaboration. But like Andy said, both are terrific candidates. Alicia. Thank you, Athena. So I first want to echo something that Dorothy said in terms of explaining that my decisions here tonight don't have much to do with whether or not I think previous leadership did a good job. I think we can all recognize the huge amount of work and dedication and commitment that goes into this work in general, but also like especially within the leadership in this kind of role. So I do want to recognize that I do think Lynn and Anna for their leadership for the past year, it's an incredible amount of work and incredible dedication. And in general, for me, in my point of view, the greatest amount of change and success in any given environment happens when there are many different viewpoints at the table, many different interests that are represented. And I think that that goes the same for leadership. And so I also want to recognize that no two people have the exact same views or preferences. And so I think that my hope for tonight and for the council in general is for there to be more diversity. And I mean that in terms of diversity in general, but in terms of thought and process and perspectives. And I want to see different people step up into leadership roles. And I want to see this council support the ability for many different kinds of people to be able to hold leadership roles. And so in general, again, what I would like to see for this council is that we never just put one person as the leader all of the time. I want to see a rotation. I want to see different people step up and take on that role. I want to see us make changes to the guidelines and the governing rules so that more people can take leadership roles. And so that is really going to be guiding my vote tonight in terms of wanting to see new people be involved in leadership. Thank you. We've completed the... Okay, thank you. So at this point, if you're in the room, please use your paper ballot. If you're on Zoom, please send an email to Athena. The vote is eight to four. I have for Anna Devlin-Gothier, Balmilne, D'Angeles, Hanakie, Lopes, Devlin-Gothier, Griezmer, Shane, and Steinberg. And for Miller, I have Walker, Miller, Ham, Rooney, and Taub. Congratulations, Anna. I'm going to come over and swear you in. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to faithfully and impartially perform all duties and coming upon you by your election as vice president for the town council, for the town of Amherst? Yeah. Thank you all for participation. And it's time to move forward with rest of our agenda. We're moving on to announcements, which is agenda item two. We have several upcoming meetings. I want to point out particularly a couple. One is on the 23rd of this month. We have our next council meeting, but we will actually begin at 5.30 with the elementary school building project as a special session, where we will have a presentation about the project, presentation about the cost estimates, and looking at the timeframe for decision-making for the council and the community. We also just want to mention that the community resources committee, which is meeting on January 12th is going to also be a joint meeting with the finance committee, thus making the committee of the whole. That will be at 5.30. In your packet is the annual report that's required from the Oliver Smith Elector. And I just want to make sure you notice that there are several flyers in there about various kinds of ways in which the Elector offers gifts to widows, new brides, et cetera. Okay. And then finally we have four, actually five big events coming up. The first is the African Heritage Reparations Assembly listening session. And this is the committee Michelle has been chairing. They are meeting at 6.30. It is by Zoom and it's a listening session. It's their second of two listening sessions. And they will be also coming forward with their report to us sometime this spring. The second is this Sunday in this room. It is celebration of life and legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King. It's from two to four. There is no Zoom link, but it will be in this room. Okay. And I want to just mention that counselors, I'll be polling you tomorrow. We have a resolution coming up but we would also, we've also been invited to participate in the reading of Dr. King's speech, a realistic look at the question of progress in the area of race relations. The next item is the National Day of Healing. And this is being sponsored by our DEI office. I should mention that the previous one is also being sponsored by our Human Rights Commission. The DEI is and others are working together to sponsor an event that will be at the Amherst Survival Center in North Amherst. It's from 6.30 to eight. It includes the options for childcare, beverages and snack. And it's part of a nationwide effort that's being developed for National Day of Healing. And then finally, the Elementary School Building Committee is going to be doing two community forums. Those are on January 25th at 8.30 a.m. and January 26th at 6.30 p.m. And those are by Zoom. Thank you. We have no hearings. So we're done with that. We're going to move to public comment. This is the only public comment this evening. If you would like to make public comment and you're in the room, please go over to where Athena is and sign up, okay? That's over again there. If you would like to make public comment and you are in the Zoom audience, please raise your hand at this time. Let's begin with the Zoom participant first. That's okay. Yes, well done. I'm showing that there are two people in the room who would like to make public comment. And there are eight people in the audience that would like to make public comment. We'll start out with three minutes, but I just want to ask that if at all possible, you keep it below that. Athena will call on people and they will make their public comment. The council will not engage in a dialogue or comment on a matter raised during general public comment. Athena? First, we'll take John Root. As you come into public comment, please state your name, where you live. John Root, please go ahead and unmute and make your comment. Okay, let's come back to John Root. Next in the room is Edith Allison. Edith, please come up to the microphone. You can state your name, where you live, and then go ahead and make your comment. Hello, my name is Edith Allison. I live on Bay Road. I guess this is repetitive for you all, but I did want to thank you for your work. Looks like you worked very, very hard. I'm here to speak for the climate goals. Thinking of our future as one of the voiceless voices, the people who aren't born, who aren't here yet. And I appreciate that you all are thinking, obviously you're working for the larger community. So I so much support that you're doing that and want to speak as a member of Mothers Outfront. And also Grace Church's next door environmental group. We're very much behind the efforts to do what we can in leadership in our town to be part of the leadership of the Commonwealth. I know other states look to us. They have triggered legal bills and they look to us. And within our Commonwealth, it's very inspiring when our different towns urge each other forward. So I'm thanking you for thinking of the future and for those voiceless voices. And I'm reminding myself of some of the inspiring people from our area, Sojourner Truth and Stan Zomek. People who really think about a really large community. And I thank you for your work. Thank you for coming out this evening and joining us. I'm gonna try John Root again. John Root, are you there? John, you need to unmute. I'm gonna try Allegra Clark. My name's Allegra Clark. I'm a resident of district two. I am joining tonight as a individual member, not speaking on behalf of the Community Safety's Social Justice Committee of which I'm the co-chair. But I just wanted to briefly voice support for the town manager goals around racial equity and personnel management to include starting with the police department. I know that there has been talk about incorporating that into all public safety departments. And I know that the overall goal is for all departments to include that work and that culture shift. And I do think that that is important. I also think that it's important to recognize the precedent of the motion that was passed on November 14th that was introduced by Councilor Walker that did indicate that the town manager should work with the police first. I think there are a few reasons why public safety, as a whole, the three departments shouldn't be specified. And I think one of them is that the backbone of Crest has been anti-racism work. So everything that they are doing and everything they have done from the start is rooted in the anti-racism. And I think that the event that was just shown the racial healing event next week with Crest sponsoring some of the small group discussions, I think that is an excellent example of an anti-racist culture working in the community. So part of me is saying that Crest is already doing the work of anti-racism. And part of me is saying that the police should be there hand in hand and should be proud to be included and maybe the second pioneering department of these efforts. I think Councilor Walker has pointed out many times that the police have a different relationship with the community and that they're out in the community, they're in people's homes. They have the power to arrest people and an arrest has the power to ruin some of these life. And that might sound like hyperbole but it will affect your employment opportunities, education opportunities, housing opportunities. You can lose all of those opportunities if you have contact with the criminal legal system. So I think that framework is what should be guiding the town manager goals related to that specific item. And I have two seconds, I did a good job, thanks. Thank you. Next in the room we have Lucy Robinson. Thank you and good evening. And I'm excited to be here because I understand that you're going to be facing climate change issues and have some good ideas about things that really need to get going right now for the sake of us, for the sake of our kids, for the sake of our grandkids and on. And I know that we're a really intelligent community that will really understand, have desperately needed any changes are that we're gonna have to make many changes. And I wanna, you don't know that so many people in the town are really behind you and really see the changes we're going to have to make. Some of which are little, some of which are huge. And I hope as you deliberate later in the year whenever you start working on it, we'll hold the hopes for all the families in this town and for the world are going to be in your hands and there's no getting around that. So I think thank you very, very much for all the work you've been doing and all the work you'll be doing and know that you're very supported in the community in this effort. Thank you very much. Again, thank you for joining us in the room tonight. Next is Felicia Mednick. Hi, thank you. I'm Felicia Mednick of 137 State Street and District 1. I'm a part of Mothers Out Front, which is also a member of the Amherst Climate Justice Alliance. And I want to first thank the town council for coming up with some thoughtful, impactful and clear climate goals. We as human beings have to take serious measures if we're going to meet the growing climate crisis. And we as Amherst through our example are leading the way for other towns to follow. I'm especially glad for the good working relationship the council is demonstrating with the Energy and Climate Action Committee. And I'm also grateful to their expertise. There are three goals I would like you to reconsider adding to the goals that have been proposed and they were recommended by the Energy and Climate Action Committee. These particular ones focus on planning. First is to develop a plan to increase the pace of retrofitting multifamily complexes, especially those serving low and moderate income families with the goal of at least one project next year. I think this will show our commitment to climate justice by ensuring that not only wealthier people will benefit from homes with higher energy efficiency. And of course, the ECAC and Sustainability Director will be intimately involved with this project. Second is to support planning for the creation of a building energy benchmarking and disclosure bylaw. This I think is a way of encouraging landlords and homeowners to take action in retrofitting their own buildings. When consumers can see how high their energy bills might be landlords and homeowners may increase their energy efficiency efforts because less energy efficient dwellings may become less desirable. Third is to reexamine the bike and pedestrian plans submitted by the Transportation Advisory Committee and strengthen it. Lastly, as I previously spoke about in the meetings of other town budget, I would love for more money to go to the town Sustainability Director and Department. I think this department will be able to bring in much funding to the town as the Inflation Reduction Act grants become increasingly available, which they soon will. And I also wanna thank you so much for your attention and all your work. Thank you. Darcy Dumont. Good evening. Can you hear me? We can. Right. My name is Darcy Dumont and I live in the new District 3. I think you've heard that to accelerate climate action we need to continually add to the town manager climate action goals funding in order to meet the climate action goals adopted in 2019. And that we need additional staffing in order to implement what we have on our plates now. Please support the addition of the three new initiatives put forward by the Energy and Climate Action Committee that Felicia Mednick just mentioned and that are also being supported by the Emmer's Climate Justice Coalition. In addition, very importantly, it's absolutely necessary to replace the first sentence of the climate action goals by putting back the reference to the 2019 Town Council Goals, which has prefaced the climate action goals every year and is the basis for action. And to require a written plan as to how the town manager is going to fulfill the goals adopted by the council. This sentence is recommended in our written comment that we have already submitted. I'm also still concerned about the budget guidance letter and believe it should be reconsidered. We need a strong commitment to capital funds for climate action in the FY24 budget. We need a statement of commitment and a progression of capital funds dedicated to climate action in order to meet our 2025 climate action goal of 25% greenhouse gas emission reduction. In fact, we need a climate action stabilization fund like Northamptons to finance the upgrading of our fleet and buildings and to provide matching funds for all the grants that came available less than a week ago from the Inflation Reduction Act. I'm hoping that our recently established capital stabilization fund can be used for that purpose. And looking at the bigger picture, we also need a commitment to a humane amount of funding per capita in our operating budget so that we can have the staff thing that we need to fulfill our policy goals. Thank you very much. Thank you for your comment, Darcy. Next is Demetria Shabazz. Hello, I'm Demetria Shabazz. I live in South Amherst on Chapel Road. One of the ways to address the significantly lower levels of trust and confidence for police among many people of color here nationwide is to create a program that continually reinforces that officers must behave impartially and without bias. This through research is shown to help in changing and supporting a more anti-racist culture within the police. What that means is the creation of equality in society. We must commit to making unbiased choices and being anti-racist in all aspects of our lives and beginning with the police force which historically emerged out of the control and surveillance of black bodies during slavery. That is where we should begin. Even the best departments are hard pressed to escape that deeply damaging legacy. The CSWG and their exhaustive research and outreach shown that not only is there an issue of perception with the APD, which has been earned by their actions as of late and in the past. Here we can do something proactive. Our town manager and council can make it happen to create a more positive perception by changing the behavior and creating an anti-racist culture that benefits all the residents and taxpayers in the community. One of the current goals under consideration by the town council is the continuation of anti-racist programming and training put forth by CSWG specifically regarding the APD as a police force that like all police departments require at times the use of force, guns and uniforms. Instead of recognizing the leadership and vision of the CSWG and your current town councilor Alicia Walker that put forth this measure as an opportunity to once again be at the forefront of the state and the US in redefining policing and building reflective and more anti-racist department. There are counselors that are attempting to rewrite and change the motion already voted on by the council. This is going backwards. There are already measures taken by police departments in the US to enact plans for mandatory training for all police officers and staff about racism, anti-racism, black history and its connection to policing. It is evident that all departments including the council should participate in ongoing anti-racist training which requires a prolonged commitment to equity but why wouldn't we start with the most necessary department in this regard, the APD? Let's lead as we have done with Crests and with DEI and begin changing the culture in the community by starting with the APD. Why wait until the worst case scenario happens whereby our youth may once again be stopped, harass and held without cause? Thank you. Thank you for joining us, Dee. Ronnie Parker, please go ahead. Hi, wow, after that I'm not really sure what to say. I did come to speak about the motion that was passed concerning training and in fact, I didn't even think about the fact that it was going to be first the police from my part if somebody called me today and said come to anti-racism training I would jump, I would change my schedule I would do everything because I know that it's so central to so many aspects of all our lives and there's so much we don't understand and so much we don't know. So I sort of feel like the police I wanted to say how come they get to go first and then I find out that they don't want to go first. I really think that for the reason cited particularly the power that we best in police officers it's really important for them to do this and I believe equally that council members should do it and some of this I heard in the discussion earlier and it's not because I support one or the other for vice president, I don't really care because I think you're all amazing people not just hard work wise but delving into complex material and managing all our different voices in different ways, of course but I really heard what Alicia said that you need change because our world is changing and we see this in our national level and everywhere even in I work in the corporate world mostly even there we see it where old people don't leave and as a result the company suffers and we all know this the world is changing you have to move on have your time move on and I think that respecting and following the change that's happening in the world and now I'm speaking about the anti-racism stuff that things are happening, things are changing let's educate ourselves let's be open to the changes that are happening and respond in responsible ways so I feel really troubled that a motion that was passed on this is trying to be rewritten it seems to me entirely inappropriate for our town council to do that and I would strongly urge you to trust your judgment of the moment it's not always right but you made a judgment and move on so we and you don't have to have really long meetings if we can move on with the things we've decided upon thank you. Thanks for joining us Rani. Brianna, please go ahead. Hi everyone. I wanna amplify how important it is that we keep Ms. Walker's original language in her motion that was passed in the town manager's goals around the APD taking actionable steps to be anti-racist. I was a former member of the community safety working group and I know from almost every meeting that I've sat on with you all that you are not required to stand by all of the CSWG's recommendations and I also know that you all have very different lived experiences in this town than myself and others. With that said, I want you all to know how hard the CSWG worked on the second part of our charge and how hard we fought for an extension to dig deeper. The desire for the APD to have an anti-racist culture is not just the aftermath of the July 5th incident. We asked you all to do this to keep our community safe over a year ago. We knew as a group that the police department was not going anywhere and that's why we recommended the APD worked toward creating an anti-racist culture. Not just trainings, but a culture because we wanted all members of our community to feel safe. It feels unsettling that officers may feel threatened or under attack when this comes up. It feels more unsettling that our chief of police can stand under a Black Lives Matter sign but his team can be so resistant to making sure all community members feel safe by participating in actionable steps to create an anti-racist culture. It is not adding up to me. The police department needs to lead this initiative as it is one that interacts with this community more than any other department and at a more intimate level than others. I know that conversations about race, racism and different lived experiences can be tough for this group but before I finish up, I wanted to share a quote for you all to think about. When someone is accustomed to privilege, equality starts to feel like oppression. Thank you. Thanks for joining us, Brianna. We're gonna try John Root again. John, can you hear us? Now can you hear me? We can, John. Okay, thank you. Hello, my name is John Root and I live at 23 Greenleys Drive in Amherst. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak. I was the chairperson of the Town of Amherst Recycling and Refuge Management Committee when it submitted a comprehensive solid waste master plan in 2016 over six years ago. The plan was created with the assistance of Arlene Miller, the Western Massachusetts Municipal Assistance Coordinator at the time and Susan Waite, the town's part-time recycling and solid waste coordinator. The two strategies were prioritized in this plan, a pay-as-you-throw fee structure to incentivize waste reduction and curbside pickup of organic matter, including food scraps, non-recyclable paper products and other compostable materials. There was strong town-wide support for both of these measures in a survey that our committee conducted at the time. We also urged that the town create a full-time waste management staff position to accomplish these waste reduction goals. This plan was received with enthusiasm by the select board. The bylaw proposed by Zero Waste Amherst, advocating that the town take responsibility for waste management by hiring a hauler that will provide both pay-as-you-throw and residential curbside organic pickup, has also received considerable town-wide support. There is a growing awareness of the many compelling reasons to limit unnecessary consumption and divert recyclable materials from the waste stream. We all know that wealthy communities both consume and discard a disproportionate amount of our planet's non-renewable resources, creating downstream impacts that include deadly environmental pollution, as well as greenhouse gas emissions associated with production, transportation and disposal of these materials. It is also well known that underprivileged populations suffered disproportionately from the health effects of pollution from both incinerators and landfills as these facilities are consistently cited near low-income communities. Approximately 50% of our residential solid waste is compostable. Discarding this valuable resource with its attendant greenhouse gas and environmental pollution consequences is simply unacceptable. In other Massachusetts municipalities where a pay-as-you-throw fee structure has been introduced, a diversion rate of 30 to 40% of materials from the waste stream is immediately observed. These two strategies taken together have the potential to accomplish a more significant positive effect in reducing our carbon footprint and environmental pollution impact than any other measures taken in Amherst history. I urge that the town council include the strongest possible language for including the adoption of the zero waste Amherst waste reduction by-law in the town manager's goals for 2023 making possible the subsequent goal of implementation of the by-law by January of 2024. Thank you. Thank you for joining us, John. That concludes public comment. We're going to move on to the consent agenda. The following items were selected because they were considered to be routine and would have no expected to pass with no controversy. To remove an item, please let me know after I go through the full list and that does not require a second. To move the following items and the printed motions they're under and approve those items as a single unit. Wave waiver of town council rules of procedure rule 8.6 for agenda item 6A 2023 Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King proclamation, King Jr proclamation. Let me just note, this is just allowing us to approve it tonight is to not actually approve the proclamation because we still have to review that. The second 8B referral of zoning revisions, duplex to community resources committee planning board and GOL committee. Again, this is just a referral. It's not an approval of the by-law. 8C approval of order FY2320A Hickory Ridge property AD adoption of order authorizing the acquisition of 457 main street property for sheltering affordable housing supportive transitional housing and or support services. 8E approval of Davis conservation restrictions Flat Hills Road 8H referral of surplus real property disposition policy to the finance committee. And let me just note that that means any other items related to that issue. And then 9B1 appointment of ZBA zoning board of appeals associate members. There are three, they are listed on your agenda. 9B4 designation of representatives to speak on behalf of the town council at four meetings that usually includes and includes here the president and the chair of the finance committee. 11A and 2D is approval of the following town council meeting minutes. November one special town council meeting with community safety and social justice committee. November 7th special town council meeting town manager evaluation reading period. November 7th, 2022 special town council meeting with budget coordinating group financial indicators November 7th, 2022 regular meeting. Are there items? Just let me get to the point I can see hands. Are there items that people would like removed? Pam Bruni, you have your hand up. Can we remove 8.B referral of duplexes? 8.B, I'm sorry, flipping pages. Yes, duplex. Okay, are there any other requests? Please raise your hand if there are. Dorothy Pam. Signals. Briefly 8C approval of order Hickory Ridge property and just a question on 8H referral of surplus real property disposition policy. Okay, so those items will be removed and when we come back to them, you can ask a question and we'll vote separately on those items. So as you look at the motion in front of you that is on the screen, please remove 8B, 8C and 8H. Is there a second? Second, Devlin got there. Dorothy, you have your hand up still. Okay, all right. Then we'll move to the vote. Shalini Balmilne. Yes. On Pat DeAngelis. Aye. Anna Devlin got here. Aye. Lynn Grismers. Aye. Mandy Johanicki. Aye. Anika Lopes. Aye. Michelle Miller. Aye. Dorothy Pam. Yes. Pam Rooney. Yes. Kathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Aye. Jennifer Tubb. Yes. Alicia Walker. Yes. It's unanimous and those items have been removed. Let's move on to the Dr. Martin Luther King proclamation and we'll put that up on the screen. There were some different suggestions of changes and Athena, I think you've received those correct. That's correct. So this shows all the changes. There were some changes that conflicted, which is why we can just post a revised version with everyone's changes and put it on consent. There were some changes here that don't agree. So we could just go through- So where are the ones that agree? Obviously adding the community sponsors. The next one is the third paragraph down and that is to, instead of saying Dr. King stated, Dr. King challenged the nation in his speech that. The next one- I'm just accepting- Are there any- Was there any objection to those changes? Please raise your hand. Dorothy, your hand is up. I backed up paragraph two. I submitted a change saying that the Civil Rights Act of 64 and 65 came before the, just reversing the time order of those two phases. The Civil Rights Act came before the removal of Jim Crow laws done locally. So you want it to read? I can submit. I saw that, Dorothy, that was unclear. So I wasn't sure what you meant. Okay, well, okay. I didn't personally research it. My husband told me who's that the Civil Rights Act came before the local laws in the South and that seemed rational to me. So we was just reversing those two phrases, those two clauses. So the Civil Rights Movement led to the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Vody Wright Acts of 1965 and other anti-discrimination laws and to the help change public policy from segregation, integration, resulting the repeal of post-reconstructed or state laws mandating racial segregation in the South known as Jim Crow. It's just reversing the order. Resulting in the repeal of post-reversal and Jim Crow laws. Dorothy, can you see the screen up here? Yeah. The editor didn't capture the way she reversed the world. Can you read how you would like it to read, Dorothy? So at the end of Jim Crow law should be a period. Okay, are there any objections to this? I don't believe that we need an and there. There's an and after every whereas. Oh, yes, got it. All right, the next paragraph. Is there any change at this point? Moving on to the next paragraph, the one which is whereas Reverend Dr. King believed the services that service was the soul's highest purpose and with the path to happiness and greatness. And in there is a sentence that should now read what are you doing for others which led communities? Okay, any problems there? Dorothy's hand is up, I'm not sure. Dorothy, you have your hand up. Okay, then we have a submission. I believe Michelle, this was yours. And this is a submission to use this paragraph but not the next, well, not all of the next paragraph. Are there any concerns or objections to the insertion of this paragraph? Whereas Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. visited and spoke in the dining room of First Church Amherst on April 17th, 1961 in the furtherance of the freedom struggle of black free people in the United States of America commonly known as the civil rights movement. We've added the word Reverend Dr. Okay, the suggestions been made to eliminate the next paragraph. Any other objections to eliminating the next paragraph? I'm sorry. So there's an additional, yeah. There's another whereas, I'll treat that as a separate paragraph, okay? And the next is, whereas the movement to recognize Dr. King's legacy as a federal holiday began four days after his assassination, yet 15 years of struggle before his birth was finally celebrated as a federal holiday. Is there any objections to that? Okay, then we're going to go on to the next one and it's eliminating the words but also by and instead of saying and actively and also not only. I'm seeing no objections. We're moving on to the next now therefore. Any changes there? Yes, there are changes. Are there any objections? Michelle. I'm not sure. Oh, my audio is connected. Okay, doesn't the first now therefore usually say now therefore be it resolved or if there's only one, does it just say now therefore? And then usually it's now therefore be it resolved and then be it further resolved. But it's not a resolution. It's a resolution. It's not a resolution. Oh, I see. It's a proclamation. Okay. But should it be now therefore? Okay. We proclaim there. I know, but does that need, I'm getting picky, sorry. I do want to point out that while this says January 16th, the day we're going to be reading this is January 15th, but 16th is the actual holiday. Usually we have something in that. Yeah. So it says the dedicated ceremony. That date's there. Yeah. The dates are there. It's combined into one now therefore. Got it. That's what those edits do just like. Are there any objections to those changes? Michelle, you have your hand up? No, I don't. Okay. Then I would like to make the following motion. Then I just have a quick question. Yes. I hate to do wordsmith, but the council proclaim and then later it confirms and does it doesn't have an S. Do we need it? So it's we proclaim. We, the American. I guess it's we request and affirm. We affirm. Yeah. Dude, I'm saying it's suddenly a firm has an S after it and the next one has an S. I don't care which it is, but they seem like they should be the same. I think it should be a firm request. Someone can figure that's the only, I just want it to read intelligently. So I don't really care how it's fixed. I have a question too. And that's about the past tense of the verb stood. Wouldn't you stay stands? He Martin Luther King stands for these. You can stand for things after you're dead. I'm fine with that change. There's any other questions? Stands. Okay. Any other questions or comments? I'm going to move to the motion. The motion is to adopt the 2023 Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. proclamation as amended at the January 9th, 2023 town council meeting. Is there a second? Second. I got here. Okay. Any other questions or comments? See none. We're going to start with had the Angeles. Hi. On a devil and got here. Lynn grease, Ms. And I made the Joe Hannity. Hi, Nico Lopes. I, Michelle Miller. Hi, Dorothy Pam. Pam Rooney. Yes. Kathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Hi. Jennifer Taub. Hi. Alicia Walker. Yes. Shalini Balmill. Yes. It's unanimous. And like I mentioned earlier, I'll be polling to see who is able to join us at the event on the 15th in this room. We're going to continue on and then take a break. Under presentations and discussions, I just want to just briefly mention upon the election of a new president, vice president or election of the president and vice president each year, the council basically then moves to any reorganizing it's going to do. This includes the council committee appointments. There are four councils, council committees. Each of you are serving on at least one of those now. And so it would be, it will be my intention tomorrow morning to send out an email and ask for as rapid turnaround as possible to see if people want to ask for changes in their present assignments. So that you'll be asked to give a first preference, a second preference and so forth. When I get those, I then try to look over what's possible, but also make those appointments as soon as possible. Then when the committee is meets after those appointments are public, which will be no later than the 23rd of January, the committee then goes through the process of electing its chair and vice chair. Are there any questions about that process? Michelle. When we respond to the survey tomorrow, does that include if we want to, if we're on two committees, for example, pair back to one or are we, okay. Exactly. And I look forward to individual conversations with people if I don't understand what they're asking for and so forth, okay? Then on the non-voting liaisons, if you'll quickly, Athena, put the list up on the screen. We presently have eight committees to which we have non-voting liaisons. It is the responsibility of the council at this point to voice any opinions with regard to whether there's committees we should keep or not keep or add. And then this goes to GOL and they come back to us with a recommendation by the 23rd as to what the definitive list should be for committees to which we have liaisons. Athena. Sorry, one second. Pat has her hand up. I'm sorry, Pat. Yeah, a quick question and I apologize. I should know this. Does the recreation department have a current liaison or has it been assigned that position? Is there a recreation committee? Yes. Does it have one now? Not from the council. Okay, thank you. Would you like that to be considered? Yes. Okay. Dorothy, you have your hand up. Yes, it is. It's right up there. I'm sorry, I just can't hear Dorothy. I think she's not pressing the button on her mic. Dorothy, it's on the list. If you look, Dorothy, the list is now on the screen, okay? And it is listed. Right now, there are two people that are liaisons to that. I think one of the questions should be whether or not there continues to needs to be two. Okay. Are there other questions or comments that you would like to forward to GOL? The only comment I heard was consideration of adding the recreation committee. Okay. Then we take no action on this at this time. Let me just go on to nine B, which is B, which finishes the organization of the council for the moment. We've already done the zoning board of appeals. We appointed them in the consent agenda. The budget coordinating group consists of three counselors. It meets with members of the school committee and it meets with members of the library, right? For the past year, if I am correct, Mandy, Joe, Andy and I have served on that committee. You have your hand up, Dorothy. Yes, I do. I went to look on the official website to see who was there and there was no listing of people. So I read the latest minutes and they were 2016. So I would suggest that that just be attended to. We just caught up on those minutes over the weekend, actually. Paul drafted them and Alison, McDonald and I were assigned to approve them. But as of today, they're still not there, but they were just, they might not been imposed by today, but thank you. There haven't been that many meetings of the BCG because we've been using the financial indicators meeting as the BCG meeting for since 2019. Once we, I think last year we had one meeting. In this past year in 2022, we had two meetings. We, Alison and I approved a set of minutes for those meetings just over the weekend, okay? And just the year at the bottom fell out of everything. We had a spring meeting because we'd done the budget in the fall and we had to redo the budget. So I mean, it's a scarce, but it was because of that. It was a reconvene, yeah. Paul, if we're going to have to go back, I will have to go back and look in my notes and see if I can come up with anything for that meeting, okay? That would be in 2020. Yes. Spring of 2020. Okay, we will look for those. Dorothy, thank you for drawing attention to that issue. It's important that committee meetings have minutes. The question before the council is, are there people interested in these committees at this time? And we basically, this is a council decision. So I'd like to ask for people to raise their hand if they are interested in BCG. Do you want to do them one at a time? I want to know everybody who's interested. And I'm actually going to raise my hand because it's a part of this. This is the budget coordinating group only. Okay, I have my hand up. Mandy, Joe has her hand up. Andy Steinberg has his hand up. Are there any other people who are interested in the budget coordinating group? If I were back on the finance committee, I would be. Okay. That's, this particular one doesn't have a requirement for finance committee. Andy and I happened to be on the finance committee and Mandy, Joe is not at this point. Okay. All right. So are there any other people that would like to be considered? Then if not, I have to find the motion to appoint counselors. Griezmer, Hanna key and Steinberg to the budget coordinating group effective immediately for a term to expire January 2nd, 2024. Is there any Shane seconds? Shane seconds. Is there any other question? All right. Then I'll go to the roll call on a Devon got here. I then Griezmer's and I'm Andy Joe Hanna key. Hi, Anika Lopes. Hi, Michelle Miller. Hi, Dorothy Pam. Yes, Pam Rooney. Yes, Kathy Shane. Yes, Andy Steinberg. Jennifer, I, Alicia Walker. Yes, Shalini Balmille. Yes. Pat DeAngeles. Hi. Excellent. We're moving on then to the other committee. And that committee is the joint capital planning committee. And the only reason I feel strongly that we need to move this is that Sean is trying to get these meetings scheduled. The people who have served on this in the last year are Anna, Mandy Joe, and Kathy. And Kathy, you've been the chair for one or two years. Three years. Okay. And let me just mention that the only restriction on this committee is that no more than two people can serve on it from the finance committee. So whatever motion we make tonight will be subject to the appointment of the finance committee. I lowered my hand. I'm not interested. Thank you. So, which, who would like to serve on the JCPC committee? Please raise your hand. I'm seeing Kathy Shane. I'm seeing Pam Rooney. I'm seeing Anna Devlin-Gothier and I'm seeing Mandy Joe Hanna key. How do you want to proceed with this, Athena? We can have discussion. And then if there's not a consensus about the counselors, then we can vote them one at a time. Okay. Might be useful for one of the existing members, Kathy, since you've been chair, talk a little bit about the meetings, when they are or when they tend to be, and what the focus is of those meetings. Okay, sure. So the composition is there are three counselors and there's two from library and two from school. And actually last year, both of the people from school were new. So this committee for a while had a lot of people that knew everything that was going on, but that was not the case. We start meeting in February and Sean gives us a schedule, but we meet literally every week, once a week. It has been at around 6.30 at night and Thursdays, but the first thing that's going to happen is a poll. Once we find out who's on it to see whether that timing works. And during that time, each of those sessions, we start out with a general overview of what this is and what's in the queue. And we now also have this inventory that's been building, so we can see how much money we have to spend the inventory. But Sean sets up times for the departments to come in so that we get the capital request from major departments a time to discuss each. And that's what the set of meetings are. Then the committee by, I think we've made it every year by the middle of March. We have a report that comes back after we deliberate and that goes to the town manager. So this is an advisory committee in recent years because earlier JCPC said, please help us with this. In recent years, what we initially get is a nearly balanced set of proposals with a queue. So it says this is what we were able to fit into this year's capital proposals. However, here's what's waiting that we can't fund. And so we can do variations on it. When I first watched JCPC, there was about twice as much being asked for as the committee had. And not until Paul came in and helped the group decide how to cut it back down. Did we get to it? But we're looking at five years was the other thing I should say that we're, as we're looking at the one year, we're looking at five years. And then what can't be fit in those five years is a what else was there. So it's a pretty involved set of discussions about what's the now, what's coming, and where's the money coming from. And what it does not include is the four major capital projects or big, big capital projects like that. That's right. And the other thing it doesn't include, but it is unable to stimulate. And we heard a couple of comments like this tonight. We set up a climate change set of money that is not designated for specifics. And we first was one pool, then we doubled it last year. And that money has been used to be matching grant money to go out and get other money or studies. So it's a place that rather than a specific idea can also bring in other money because we put put aside some money in the capital budget. Mandy, Joe, you had your hand up in addition to your hand up. So go ahead, please. I might be able to cut this short. Just debate short. I am happy to, well, to withdraw my interest to allow PAM to go on since I have served on JCPC for all four years. This council's existed. I'm happy to go off to expand that pool. Okay, Andy. Yeah, I just wanted to point out that this is an unusual committee in that it exists because the charter mandates that it exists in its charter section 5.7 B that establishes and gives direction to what the committee's response composition and responsibilities are. So at this point we have three candidates. I'm going to make a motion to appoint councillors Devlin, Gauthier, Pam Rooney, I'm sorry, Rooney and Shane to the joint capital planning committee effective immediately for a term to expire January 2, 2024. Is there a second? Second. Second. Okay. I'm going to go to the roll call. Any further questions or comments? All right. I start with Griezmer and that's an I. Maybe I should have started with Devlin, Gauthier. Lynn, there are there are hands up. I'm sorry. It was still. Pam or. I think we're both just really interested. I took that as interest hands, but not thank you. Anna Devlin, Gauthier. Aye. Lynn Griezmer is an I. Amanda Johannity. Aye. Annika Lopes. Aye. Michelle Miller. Aye. Pam Rooney. Aye. I'm sorry. Dorothy Pam. Yes. Pam Rooney. Aye. Kathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Aye. Jennifer Tob. Aye. Alicia Walker. Yes. Shanley Bell-Millan. Yes. Pat D'Angeloz. Aye. Excellent. Unanimous. We're done with that piece of the agenda. We are going to now take a 10 minute break. Okay. Please on, please mute. Okay. And also take your picture down, but put your picture back up when you come back. Thank you. Okay. Let's get back, please. Moving on. My timekeepers are watching, but I just want to note that we finished within 10 minutes of my projected time for that first set of things. Lynn, don't do that. You just blew it. You're right. But Pat, you'll keep me on track. All right. Please turn your video back on. I think I better do that too. Please turn your video back on to let me know you're back. We have three items that were pulled off of consent. The first is the zoning revisions regarding duplex. My understanding is that Pat is going to make a brief summary statement. Mandy Joe will answer questions. There's going to be a brief council discussion. At that time you should stick to the following comments. What are the types of you of things do you as a counselor want to make sure that CRC looks at? Don't get into the debate. Just what do you want to make sure they look at? Okay. And then we will move to a vote. So with that, Pat, are you ready? Yes, I am. Great. Zoning policies and practices in Amherst and across the nation have historically restricted housing production and excluded people by building durable walls between racial and socioeconomic groups. Single family zoning has impacted our environment. And the very changes we are proposing have the potential to make the town more affordable by expanding the supply of housing, make the town fairer by reducing racial and economic segregation and combat climate change by reducing commutes and making housing more environmentally friendly. We're simply asking to have the chance to create the broadest possible spectrum of housing for our community and one that minimizes the impact on the environment. We would like these revisions to be forwarded to the planning board and the community resources committee for public hearings, review, and recommendation no later than April 1st, 2023. Thank you. Okay. I mean, Joe, comment. Pat covered it. Okay. Are there questions at this time? Dorothy, I have a number of questions. Where is the ownership opportunity? Also, it's not clear to me what the non fraternity residential areas are. Is why is it the desire to increase the load of the planning board and to take things away from the zoning board of appeals? What is the intent of that? I see this would promote more non-owner occupied rental housing in residential neighborhoods and given the cost of housing, it is extremely expensive to build. So if you have a owner occupied in a duplex, that is the rent that would have to be charged to cover the cost. If this is just a simple one person adding an apartment, that rent is going to be very high. So we've seen what the rents. We have some new townhouses that are coming up in my neighborhood. And we have seen what the rents are. And they're very high. They're beyond what a family can pay. And so I understand the intent and that's a worthy intent. But I'm just not sure that with the present economics that would work. There's also a concern with this by taking it away from the zoning board of appeals, then create less public input and kind of how that would work out. So those are some of the questions, but mainly a lot of them have to do with the actual practicality of how you can get rents that people could afford. And certainly how they're where the home ownership opportunities are, given the present state of our building situation. Thank you. Pam. Yeah, I look forward to the CRC being able to delve into this and especially to hear from the planning board. And the changes that are being proposed to our permitting process, it looks like it's primarily a change to the permitting process, rather than some of the details and the setbacks and all of that, that accompany for any residential development. I think what was I going to say, I'm sort of looking at the master plan as a reference. And the master plan does state that we should have design guidelines before increasing density. And this has come up a couple of times, both in the town center and in general development. We do not have design guidelines before increasing density, which this clearly is trying to accomplish. Northampton, on the other hand, has a marvelous set of design guidelines, specifically for duplexes. And I think before we delve in and lift all of the, essentially lift all of the restrictions for permitting, we really need to kind of think about where we want ahead with the end result that may occur. So again, I look forward to looking at it in detail. Okay. Jennifer? Yes, I'll be echoing a little bit. Dorothy said both Dorothy and I live in general residence districts. So we already have duplexes, triplexes, and townhouses are already part of the zoning allows that. So that's not a change for certain districts in town. I would just question, I guess we will discuss this in the committees, but I'm not aware of too many times if ever that special permits are not granted. So like a townhouse, we have several that are already in our district and another one that's about to be built. And having it go through the special permitting process was extremely helpful. It wasn't onerous to the developers that were proposing it. It just seems that that's something that just ensures that there'll be another look and that there's more opportunity for community input. And I don't see what the harm is in continuing to have special permits, why we would want to reduce that to a site plan review. And then I did have a concern because I'm always talking about more than anything, I would like to see more housing, both rental and home ownership opportunities, that are accessible to young families, retirees, many households in Amherst at different price points. And I think we're gonna have to really delve into, I don't see how this proposal is gonna lead to more duplexes, triplexes, and particularly rental townhouses that are going to be more affordable. And when Dorothy referenced a townhouse development that was permitted in our district last year, and the neighborhood was very excited for this townhouse development, we thought it would be a great opportunity to bring in young faculty, young administrators at UMass, young families, and we were hoping that it would be home and we're still hoping to non-student households because otherwise it will be with 68 bedrooms total, a off-campus dormitory. But we were concerned because so in a letter that the developers representative sent to our planning department last year because the ZBA had asked what the rents would be and they said it's a market rate project and the rents charge will be market rate and currently that means studios, the range will be $1,500 to $2,050, one bedrooms will be $1,600 to $2,100, two bedrooms will be $2,200 to $3,020, three bedrooms will be $3,000 to $3,900 and four bedroom units will be $3,700 to $4,500. So I think we may want to look at pairing this with something like a minimal distance requirement, but I think if we just make it, this seems to be making the permitting process easier for duplexes, triplexes in townhouses, we may find a lot of units that aren't really priced for the population we're hoping to serve. Thank you. Okay, Kathy? I wrote up my comments and questions so I will send them forward and so I just to add to some of what's being said is a question about triplexes, we are putting a new concept in there. We have a specific owner occupied duplex, should we have an owner occupied triplex category is a question and my answer would be yes. Townhouses I think are quite different than duplex and triplex and when you get up to the RO, the rural areas, I think we need to think about them differently. They're not allowed at all right now and the definition of them is they should be on heavily trafficked streets close to business commercial areas where they already have multifamily use. So one question I had is if the expansion may be too broad and if you bring it into areas that never had them before, do you want to restrict them to one building? Because they can have up to 10, but they could have up to 10 units, but they could have two buildings, otherwise you're really allowing apartments in. So I think townhouses are a different kind of creature when you get to some of these areas. So I will almost send these in and the final one is how does some of this interact with ADUs? We've got a lot of flexibility because of what we've already put into the law. So people can have two units on their property, it could be attached to their house. So when does it move from being a non occupied owner occupied duplex to a house with two units in it? So just trying to think about and what is a triplex if my home, which already can have two, if I could get three units in it, do I have a triplex or do I just have a house with three dwelling units in it? So it's kind of trying to think of what these are because in the past in a lot of places the difference was an owner owned the duplex, half of it, and someone else owned the other half. And so did triplex, you know, it allowed people to come into ownership for part of a building. So they weren't just rental units. So just trying to think about how these all interact. Kathy and the other three counselors that have spoken as well as any other counselors, let's make sure you send your questions to CRC. And they will be compiled and dealt with there. With that, I'm going to make a motion. The motion is to refer the proposed revisions of zoning bylaw section 3.32 residential uses standards and conditions for two family detached dwellings townhouse and subdividable converted dwelling zoning bylaw article 12 definitions and zoning bylaw section 4.420 4.4211 43 bill whatever and 9.10 to the planning board and the community resources committee for public hearings to be held no later than April 1 2023 and for a written recommendation from the planning board to the town council and CRC no later than 21 days after the planning board hearing and for the community resources community resources committee to send a written recommendation to the town council and to submit all materials to the GOL committee for review of clarity consistency and action ability within 60 days of the hearing held by CRC. Is there a second second? Okay, I'll further comment Dorothy. Yes, the question is about the timing. Someone that I showed this to said, Oh, that's very fast. That's very speedy. That's faster than usual. I really can't tell if that's true. But I am interested in knowing as it seems to be on a very fast timetable. And I'm wondering why I mean to show you want to speak to that since you're the one that is don't develop the diagram. So state law requires that any hearing on zoning articles in both the planning board and CRC begin within 65 days of the referral. So that's why that date is in there. It does not require them and within 65 days of referral. And I believe I would not be speaking outside of pad. I think should agree with this. We do not expect the hearings to be done in one night. So so we don't expect it to be back in answer in that one. And Dorothy, thanks for that question and Andy Joe for the answer, because I think it helps clarify it for the public. I looked at this and I said, there is no way it's happening in 60 days. Okay, any other questions or comments? Moving that we're moving to a vote. This is a referral only. Griezmer is an I, Mandy Johanicki. I, Anika Lopes. I, Michelle Miller. I, Dorothy Pam. Yes, Pam Rooney. I, Kathy Shane. Yes, Andy Steinberg. I, Jennifer Taub. I, Lisa Walker. Yes, Shanley Balmillan. Yes, Patty Angelis. I, Anna Devlin-Gothier. I, the referrals unanimous. The next item on the agenda was removed from consent. So it's the transfer portion of Hickory Ridge property on West Pomeroy Lane to the recreation commission and appropriation and transfer acceptance of the park grant. And I believe that Dorothy, you asked that you wanted to clarify something. Please ask. A member of the town, a constituent raised a point on this. I just wanted to have it coupled with this in the minutes that there'd be a consideration of using some of that land as a youth center connected with outdoor youth activity spaces. And I thought, well, that's interesting. So I thought that that was a good thing to bring up here just to be attached and considered when the time comes. Just to be clear, that's not the same land in this case. This is recreation only. The youth center would be a physical facility. And that's on a different part of the land. Well, okay. So there's an outdoor recreation space for youth. Could be you're saying, I cannot be any structures. Is that what you're saying in this part of the land? For this part, it's outdoor only. But David, do you've joined us and please answer for me? Yeah. Sure. I think the answer is yes. We're going to try to do a lot of things out at Hickory Ridge. And the planning planning department is a little stretched right now with a couple of vacancies, but we are working diligently on a comprehensive plan for Hickory Ridge, which will include, you know, if all goes well tonight, the accessible trail that was funded by the state, 70% funded by the state, and consideration of what to do with the rest of the property. So we're looking at trails, connections to East Hadley Road and the neighborhoods to the north. We're looking at connections to the village center. And we're also looking at repurposing some of the frontage along West Pomeroy Lane. So I think outdoor recreation, passive recreation, we've talked about an amphitheater, community gardens. We're looking at all of those, all of the suggestions that came in through the website and other means, the public meetings we had. So as I said last time, we're also seriously looking at whether that site could support a South Fire Station. So I think all of the above are still in the works. Nothing has been excluded. We will, of course, take great care. The land is ecologically very sensitive. There's a lot of flood plain there, where species habitat, that is, those are layers of consideration that by law we have to, we have to put front and center. So we'll do that. Thank you, David. Any other questions? No, thank you very much. Sure. So the motion is as follows to adopt Town Council Order FY2320-20A. Hickory Ridge property recommended by the Finance Committee on January 9, 2023, and shown on page 15 to 16 of the January 9 motion sheet as presented. Is there a second? Second. Definitely got there. Sorry. Any other questions or comments? Lynn, actually, can you, it should be 15 to 17. Pages, pages 15 to 17. Thank you. I still second it. All right. Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to start with Mandy Johanneke. Aye. Anika Lopes. Aye. Michelle Miller. Aye. Dorothy Pam. Yes. Pam Rooney. Yes. Kathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Aye. Jennifer Taub. Aye. Alicia Walker. Yes. Shanley Balmille. Yes. Pat D'Angeles. Aye. Anna Devlin-Gothier. Aye. Lynn Griesmer is an aye. It's unanimous. David, again, I want to congratulate you and your staff on getting all of these wonderful grants and moving this kind of effort forward. It's been a really big year for grant getting in Hammers. So thanks again, David. You are most welcome. And yeah, we've got a lot of work ahead of us. Paul and I were just talking about that 23-24. We've got to get going on new sidewalks and north common and intersections and ADA trails and the list goes on and on. So thank you. We'll keep moving forward. Thanks for all your work and to the staff as well. Thank you. Thank you. I will convey that. Good. So the other item that was pulled off the consent agenda was the surplus real property disposition policy. Let me preface talking to asking Councillor Pam about this and just let me mention this was referred to in the financial guidelines and the idea is that it would be referred to the finance committee. The finance committee will make a recommendation back to the council and the council will then make a recommendation to the town manager regarding this policy. And that's just the beginning then of going back and starting to look at our excess property. My question was a very simple one. Why now and what have you been doing up to now? We haven't been disposing of property now and it did get included in the final financial guidelines for the first time this year. So that's why now. Okay. Thank you very much. Got it. With that in mind then the motion on this is to find the motion to adopt the no. Thank you. Oh that's right. It got put here. I'm the one that moved it. To refer surplus real property disposition policy to the finance committee for review and recommendation to make it appropriate to our current government and ensure that it will inform actions with the report to the town council by April 3rd, 2023. Is there a second? Second. Hanukkah. Thank you. Let me just mention there are other documents that this committee will look at and April 3rd is the point at which they need to at least give us an update, not necessarily a final recommendation. Any other questions on this? Okay. Seeing none we're going to move to Anika Lopes. I'm Michelle Miller. I'm Dorothy Pam. Yes. Pam Rooney. Yes. Kathy Shane. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Jennifer Tob. I'm Alicia Walker. Yes. Melanie Balmille. Yes. Pat DeAngelis. Aye. Anna Devlin-Goth here. Aye. Lynn Griezmann. I'm Andy Johanicki. Aye. Yes. Aye. Thank you unanimous. With agreement by the committee, I'd like to move to the response to the open meeting law complaint and then come back to the town manager's goals. Okay. The open meeting law complaint, Item G in your packet was filed by Allegra Clark on Tuesday, December 20th, 2022 and received on December 21st by the town clerk. Tonight's council packet includes the complaint, a memo from the town attorney regarding the complaint and attachments to that memo. The decision before the town council tonight is based upon the documents in the packet. The town attorney's memo clearly advises the council that there were no violations of open meeting law. This is what we are required by law to respond to and we are have to respond within 14 days. Therefore, I'm placing the following motion on the table and seek a second to authorize KP law to respond to the open meeting law complaint filed by Allegra Clark dated December 20th, 22 on behalf of the town council consistent with the council's discussion on January 9th, 2023. Is there a second? Second DeAngelis. Okay. So the floor is now open for discussion. I just want to again say the discussion is about whether or not we violated open meeting law. It's not about the meeting itself. Okay. Questions, comments. Michelle Miller. Trying to pull up the memo. I had asked town manager Buckleman to send some what I perceive as inaccuracies in the memo from Lauren and I'm just wondering if that, Paul, if you had a chance to speak with Lauren about those. I have not gotten a response back to including them. So if you would that if it's something that you would like to include in this, you can if you want to change what the facts of what she worked on, you can say that and put those things right now. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. I appreciate that. So in the memo, I'm just if you could maybe go to someone else just for a second. Lynn, I'm going to pull up my comments. Thank you. Alisha. Thank you. I just had a quick clarifying question in terms of process just because Lynn, you said before we make the decision tonight. And so what decision are we making? Like, is it just the vote to ask KP law to respond? Or is there some other decision we think we will be making in regards to this? It's to ask KP law to respond based on the memo as they've laid it out and our discussion tonight. That's all. When you have an open meeting violation, it's a it's a legal and a state level process. And you must respond to the state based on the filing and that response is required within 14 days for day 12 because of when this arrived and our meeting schedule. So that's all it is is to decide are we ready to have them file? Does that help, Alisha? Or does it? That is helpful. I'm just wondering and then how because it's just a little bit confusing because it says that they will respond in accordance with our decision. And so I would like also some clarity on what exactly that means because there was no like we didn't have a discussion before a motion was put on the table. And so that's also slightly confusing part of the process here. So again, just more process questions in terms of how we right. So the the motion which is to authorize them to respond to the open meeting law complaint filed by like Clark on behalf of the town council consistent with our discussion tonight. So if there are some changes that people feel need to be made to the memo or some other comments, then now's the time to make them. And then the discussion will be shared with KP law and they will write the response to the memo. I mean to the complaint. Does that help? Yes, so yes, that is helpful. Thank you. And then my last question was just that so then we nor KP law makes the decision as to whether or not it was actually a violation. There was actually a violation or or that happened somewhere else. I'm going to look at Athena and Paul because I know both of them have been entrenched in this. So the council can decide as a group that it violated the open meeting law or it did not violate the open meeting law and KP laws response would reflect that decision. If the council agrees with the KP law memo that they did not violate the open meeting law, then KP laws response would basically include what was in the memo in the packet tonight. If the council determines that it did violate the open meeting law, then there would need to be some sort of statement or evidence or something that that did occur and the council could along with the response, take some action like the things that were suggested in the memo creating minute minutes, having a discussion and public meeting and so forth. Okay. Paul. Yeah, just to focus your attention, if you want to go to the last page of the KP law memo, the last two paragraphs, it says the first is if you said if you think there was not a violation, here's what you do. If you think that there was a violation, here's what you do. And whichever the council comes up with on on that one of those two things either there was a violation or there wasn't KP law will respond based on that. So and I think the one if you think there was a violation, there's there's some remedial action that you would recommend that the council would take. Lisa, does that answer your questions? Thank you. Yes, I will have more comments later. Thank you, Linda. Thank you, Paul. Okay. Michelle, I'm back to you. Okay. So under relevant facts in the memo toward the end of that paragraph, it says the council president basically the police chief offered three dates and times when individual counselors were welcome to meet with the police officers. And the council president sent several emails, notifying counselors of this opportunity. I think it's important to correct this to indicate that the council president offered two opportunities. The first meeting that occurred occurred without the knowledge of most of the council. And I learned that by being in the meeting and hearing about the meeting that had occurred earlier in the week. And asking Lynn and she said, I think referred to it as a trial run. So that quote unquote trial run that occurred earlier in the week was not a meeting date that was offered to the full council. And it's not clear how the counselors who attended that meeting were invited to attend that meeting. I'm not questioning whether the meeting itself was a problem. It's just that's more accurate to say. The other piece is somewhere here. It says that okay, the council president reported these listening sessions had occurred in her regular written report to the council in December. And nobody in the public by looking at that report would know that the meetings occurred between the APD and counselors because they were reported under Lynn's meeting with staff. And so I believe the memo should reflect that the December report of the council president did not indicate that the meetings had occurred with counselors. So I'm asking, I believe those are two significant inaccuracies. And I don't know how or why, but I'd like for those to be corrected. I do have other comments too, but if there are other, you can come back to me. Okay. Kathy? I was going to go to the general question that was posed. Do we think there was an open meeting law violation? So do you want to move away from the specific wording of the memo? If anyone else wants to talk to that first, I'll wait. Okay. Is there anyone else that would like to speak to the wording in the memo? I'm looking at people that already have their hands up. Andy or Mandy, Joe, if you're shaking your heads, no. Andy? No. Okay. So Michelle, did you have anything else in the memo itself? No. Okay. Alicia, do you have anything else in the memo itself? Not exactly. I just wanted to share or actually ask, in regards to what Michelle said, because we said we could make these edits. So how does that happen? Like now that Michelle said that, is that just automatically an edit or does that request get sent to KP law? That request will go along with the tape of this meeting and the minutes to KP law. Okay. Thank you. So they will then adjust those sentences accordingly. Okay. Thank you. Okay. All right. Anything else? Michelle? No. Okay. Kathy, we're going to the general comments. As my understanding of what we can and cannot do, and then also this memo is that we can be at an event. And in this case, at least the one I was at, there weren't seven of us. So I didn't get to that quorum number, but we can be an event if we're not talking about council policy, if we're basically there to listen and get information. And during the time I was there, that's all that happened. And in fact, the counselors were remarkably quiet during most of it. And the people talked to us about their view of working in Amherst, their view of recent events, but also their larger view of where questioning where we were going. But there was very little interaction. You know, it was more them talking. And I left early. I didn't leave early. I didn't stay for the meet and greet because I didn't know we were going to do that. But as I was walking out, one of the younger staff, police people started to tell me his life story. He just wanted to know, let me know where he'd come from. He'd come from a low income Puerto Rican background and and what it meant to him to have this job. It was just, I had never met him before. So it was a real opportunity that I've only met the people who I either see on parole or come to the finance committee. So I actually wish there would often be more opportunities like that, maybe even once a year. So, so I'll stop there. But I'll say the same thing. I did a tour of DPW, which I'd never done. And I got to meet everyone who worked at DPW by walking around the building. Got a much better idea of who was working there and what they were doing. Of course, I didn't meet anyone out on the road. And then later the same day went to the fire station and they were all sitting around a room eating their lunch during a break and got to talk with them. So I just thought for me, I've never had those opportunities before and I really welcome them. I do ask that we stick to the issue of whether or not there was a violation of open meeting law. And so I just want to say that we didn't talk about policy. We didn't talk about anything. We really were listening. Okay, Andy. In the same vein, I do not believe that there was a violation. And I turn the first to KP law memo top of page four, where there are five understandings of the fact that are laid out there. And I think that all of them are well stated and consistent with my understanding. But the other thing that I want to point out in general, and I think it is covered in the memo, but I just want to refocus to it is that the purpose of the open meeting law law is to make sure that all discussions of matters that are going to be deliberated amongst the council take place in an open meeting. And so therefore you get to the question whether anything that was discussed, which really wasn't a discussion, it was a listening session, was matters about which the council deliberates. And I saw nothing, heard nothing, knew nothing that came forward in the meeting that I attended about what was a matter that was going to come before the council because the supervision of the staff in all of our departments is a matter of the executive branch, not the legislative branch. And for that reason, I firmly believe that there was no violation. Thank you, Andy, Joe. Thank you. To me, the motion, well, I will say I agree with what Andy and Kathy said. To me, there is no violation of open meeting law. And therefore I look at this motion and I wonder if it can be made clearer. I'm not and I'm hesitant at this point to make a motion to amend because I don't know where the council stands. But after more people have talked, I wonder if we added the phrase at the end of that motion that says that the town council did not violate open meeting law would make what we're actually voting on a whole lot clearer. Because then the motion would read to authorize KP law to respond to the open meeting law complaint on behalf of the council consistent with the council's discussion on the ninth that the town council did not violate open meeting law. So I feel like that would be if that's the direction the council, a majority of the council believes we should respond, I think that would be a clearer motion and give clearer direction to KP law. I don't know whether it needs to be a motion to amend. I'm not sure right now is the right point to make that, but it might just be able to be a friendly amendment after fuller discussion. Okay, let's go on. Michelle, I'm going to skip to Dorothy and Alicia next. Dorothy? Yes. Well, I went through the meetings that were provided. And what we come up with was there was no meeting. There was no deliberation. There was no quorum. Therefore, there was no violation of open meeting law. And I think that that is correct as the definition of open violation of open meeting law is concerned. And yet we as counselors have been told, if you talk among something with one or two persons, and they might talk with somebody else. And we've been told that to be aware of serial communication, which I'll tell you has really limited my talking with many people in the council, my fellow council members, because I can't figure out where that begins and ends. Okay. So that's just an introduction. So what I'm going to say is that's if we agree according to the rules, there wasn't a violation of open meeting law, yet something did occur. Okay. And something occurred which made some people very unhappy. Because you're when, when we had a council meeting where we were voting on something, one of our counselors started quoting things that she had been told at that meeting and using them as reasons why she could not vote for the certain language in a resolution. Now, of course, we go and talk to constituents, we get information all the time, and that was perhaps just information gathering. But what happened in that room, and I wasn't there, but I'm just, you know, from the reports that I've read was that people met as people. There was an attempt to cross barriers to get to understand who the people were, what their needs were, how they felt about things. And that's good. But, you know, that wasn't done with the residents who were very unhappy about July 5th. There's a lot about that that we don't know. We don't get told various things. I don't know what attempts were made to meet with them. But I'm telling you that I will not feel satisfied with having said, no, there was no violation of the open meeting law case closed, because I feel that something is still left hanging in the air. All right. And I'm perfectly willing to go talk with the police officers at a time of their convenience. But I would like to come with a few of the people who were upset and concerned about the July 5th meeting, not for a confrontation, but for a person-to-person human interaction. Because I mean, we've had this thing drag on because we tried to use rules. And sometimes we can't just use rules. We have to use our feelings and our hearts. And it sounded to me like the police officers were communicating on a feeling level at that, at those meetings. So I'm just saying, I would like to have the next step taken so that we can, I am for healing. I'm not to go, I'm not so sure I want to go to yet another meeting that says it's about healing. I want to do some real healing and to get some people together to talk so that they will understand each other as human beings and where they come from. And like Kathy said, he wanted me to know who he was. Okay. Well, that's what we all want. We all want. And I think that in Amherst, we should be able to pull this off. That's just my feeling. Alicia. Sorry. Okay. Thank you. So I want to echo a lot of the same sentiment as Dorothy, one because I was not at any of the meetings. And so I don't feel like I could personally state whether or not there was an open meeting law violation. And so that piece of me that has no idea as to the reality of what happened would like to see the public records request before making this decision, because I don't think it is abundantly clear what actually happened. And I think that's part of my discomfort with the situation. And then just a couple of things that I wanted to point out. One in the KP law memo, it does state the five points that Andy was referencing that the open meeting law does not prohibit members of the council from visiting a department doing a sidewalk at a department or listening informally to members of a department. And I'm not so sure that that constitutes an informal listening. If it was a planned, it seemed pretty formal to me because there were refreshments and there was mingling and it was formally set up ahead of time. And I would also just like to speak a little bit more to the sentiment that Dorothy was speaking to is I think the reason why this situation doesn't feel good is because we weren't transparent and honest with the community. And so I think one of our goals as a council, one of the reasons why I ran for counselor is to create more transparency, a deeper connection with the public, a more engaged community with the council itself. And so I think when things like this happen, that sort of breaks the trust, the transparency, the openness, the, I think the sentiment of like leaving our arms open for the community to come in and talk with us, this was really closed off. And I feel like blocking the community off of being engaged. And one of the things that people really wanted to see as a result of the July 5th incident was connection with the community, connection with the PD and understanding. And I think a lot of people spoke to the fact that they were upset because there was no response, there was no formal response, people didn't say how they feel. And again, I was not at any of these meetings, so I do not know what actually happened. But what from what I heard, a lot of the PD were able to express their feelings. And I think that that could have been a magical moment for our community had they been invited, had they been involved, had they been allowed to hear these things that they have been asking for, they have been asking for us to know, to feel connected, to be involved. And I think that's how we build community, that's how we build trust is to let them come out and share their feelings with the community, let the feel the community share their feelings, like we need to do these things. This is healing. Again, what Dorothy said, I know I'm echoing a lot of her sentiments, but I feel very deeply about this, that whether or not this was a violation of them of the meeting law, again, I feel I cannot speak to you because I was not there. And again, I would like to see the public records request before we make any formal decisions about that. And I think as attorneys, it would be helpful for them to have some documentation to prove these things. But something wrong happened. This was wrong. This was not the way we should have proceeded with this. It was also not made clear to me in the invitation in my email, what was going to happen at this session, what was what we were going to be talking about what it was for. I think these things, this is important information for us to have as counselors. And I think what we want to do as a council is connect with community. And so therefore I believe these things should have been shared with the community. And so I just think we went about this wrong. I think we could have used this as an opportunity to connect people in departments and to bring community together. And we didn't take that opportunity. And so I feel very disappointed about how this happened. I also feel because of that disappointment and because of the lack of transparency, I feel very interested in knowing what actually happened. And I also feel very interested in knowing the origin and how that meeting came to be. And why we didn't decide to share that when we share so many things with the public. And we have so many rules around how much notice we have to give people about certain things that are happening and how much we do choose to share with the community, why we chose not to share this. And so I feel like this just leaves me with a lot more questions than I feel like we as a council even have answers to. I don't feel like we as a council have the capacity to even answer this question. Michelle. Yeah, I just, I want to reinforce what Alicia said. Because these meetings happened in a private way and not in a public way, there is no recording. We can't go back. We can't see what was said. Most of us, we weren't all at every meeting. So for me to make a determination about two other meetings that happened and whether there was an open meeting violation, there was at least one meeting in which there was a quorum of a committee present. I don't know what happened in that meeting. And so I don't know what happened in the other two meetings that I wasn't at. And we have no way of knowing. So to ask us as a council to determine if we've violated open meeting law is a very difficult task for us. The other thing I wanted to say is, and I shared this with Paul earlier last week, I don't, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know whether or not we violated open meeting law. And so it's challenging for us to have to make this determination. But what I do know is that something felt really different to me about those meetings. Everything that we do and that we have done or that I have done as a counselor has been in the public's eye in the public's view. It's been encouraged to have meetings posted, have subcommittees posted, have if there is any thought about having any sort of listening session or listening, you know, opportunity, it's something that we discuss as a council. And so being in that room and I so appreciated that members of the police department were willing to share their experience. And I feel that we actually did them a disservice in this process, because they had something to say that as Alicia said, the community needed to hear. And we can make an argument that maybe they wouldn't have spoken so candidly if it had been a public meeting. But if we had created a container with a facilitator in an environment that welcomed healing, and that was above board, and that was open to the public, I felt really, really brutally uncomfortable in that meeting. And I know that that means that something was different. And that doesn't necessarily mean there was a violation of open meeting law. I do want to ask specifically about that. So as I understand deliberation, an oral or written communication through any medium, including electronic mail between or among a quorum of a public body or any public business within its jurisdiction. I'm wondering, I don't, I'm wondering if the process itself, if we might consider that the process itself could have been a violation of open meeting law. In terms of how the serial communication, I would have, what I would have thought would have happened in a situation like this is a counselor or a couple counselors say, hey, we want to hear from the police department. Let's go to Lynn. Let's ask Lynn to put it on the agenda. Let's talk to the council about how we're going to move forward with that and how the council wants to proceed. But these meetings were scheduled. The body that deliberated was the council, but the body deliberated outside of a public meeting about whether or not to hold these series of meetings. So I have that as an open question. And again, I don't know if there was a violation. I don't know how we could possibly make that, how we could possibly make that decision being that we weren't at all of the meetings, and there's no recording of the meetings. And I, I also told Paul that I would rather us focus our energy. I do understand we need to respond to this, but I would rather see us focus our energy on best practices so that next time we run up against a group that wants to be heard or counselors who want to hear a group, how do we want to organize that? What is our best practices for doing that? And I would really ask Lynn and Anna to please put that on the agenda for a future meeting. Thank you. Onika. Okay, so I also agree that there was no open meeting while violation. I was present for all meetings. And what I would have thought is that I wouldn't have been the first council to do so. When we first started our terms here, I asked the town manager, I said, you know, we are going to be interacting and making decisions that impact departments such as the police department, DPW fire department. And I said myself, I have not been there. I have not met these folks. And we had a tour and all of us were there and it wasn't public knowledge. It wasn't publicly posted. Throughout this incident, we have offered our voices, our platform in space for the families and the youth of that July 4th incident. There was never anything which required the public be privy to that. The police made it clear, the police department all of them made it clear when we first went for our visits that they have an open door policy. And that's what I did. I find it very unfortunate to be on a council knowing this information was knowingly presented to the public as if it was suspicious, as if something wrong was done. As if this was something that excluded the public. There is trust that trust has been violated on both sides, the police department and with the public. And us here in the council made decisions based on an edited video. We asked families again and we asked everyone involved on the side of the youth that were involved for them to speak. We opened our hearts. We opened this space. We not once asked to speak with the police department to hear their point of view regardless of what your stance is. When I stood in the meeting with probably the majority, most of the police officers, it was my first time doing so. And uncomfortable for me as a woman of color and they held space for that. And we're very inclusive again. They're more diverse than our council is. And I think that the way that this information was presented was really a shame. It was like throwing a lit match in a dry forest. There are so many especially people of color in this community that come from such brutality that involves as well police department to throw something like that and just kind of ignite, you know, hurt that this could inspire and just, you know, you can't, but you really can't blame some community for responding the way that they did. Because this information came from us and also from people who hadn't attended the meetings as opposed to maybe just doing some fact check and reaching out to your counselors first and assuming that the point of these meetings wasn't to find how we could find middle ground to move forward, you know, and to come in as, you know, the Monday quarterbacks as if we need how we're going to move forward and repair what was supposedly was wrong with what happened. I'm glad that we offered our ear to our staff. I think that that is our job here as counselors. If you can't speak to anyone, whether whether you agree with them or not, again, I've said this before, what are we here for? Thank you. Anna. I forgot what button to push. Sorry. So I'm going to follow Anika's very passionate statement with some very cut and dry things. And I apologize for that. I want to ask Michelle a question. I counted the the counselors at each session. I did not see a quorum at any including in the notes. Could you clarify which session had a quorum? And I apologize. My camera's off. I'm eating an apple. TSO, I believe, had a quorum in I have to look at the list. Oh, you're saying council committee is not a council of the whole. Yes, I'm saying that there was a quorum of TSO in one of the meetings. And if you think about that particular group, it's town services and organized, you know, town services. It's possible that something within a discussion at the APD would be relevant to TSO. Right. And in that case, I think the open meeting law complaint would have to come against TSO specifically and which feel free because I still don't believe that it's a violation for for multiple reasons. I think, you know, there was not a quorum of this body and the body didn't I would argue the body did not deliberate neither in the sessions nor via email. Lynn didn't ask if we wanted the meetings to exist. She said, these are happening, do you want to join? Right, which is a logistical thing. And we're doing kind of those logistic style items is very permissible over email, such as scheduling, etc, etc. I think, you know, where what I what I think is interesting and what I'm looking forward to having further conversation on is how we engage with town staff across departments because, you know, I think this has been a topic since day one, I don't think that it has to do with this open meeting law complaint because I am of the mind that this was not a violation of open meeting law. You know, if I'm in the bank, I'm going to use a real live example of if I'm in the bank center and I run into an EECA and we want to go visit the Crest team, because they're upstairs, you know, is that something that then we should be reporting on anything that they shared with us in that moment, right? So I think that it's, it's important for us to consider how we engage with staff, and that there's a lot of difference between figuring out our own ways of engagement and breaking the law, right? And so, so I think when you actually look at the details of this, it's pretty clear from the KP law opinion that open meeting law was not violated in this instance. I think that's all I've got. Oh, and then sorry. The only other thing is that some of the things that we're talking about are I understand why they, why they feel desirable to folks, right? So saying what it's about or making a formal plan. That's what what it, that's, that's when it turns into an actual meeting, right? Is when you talk about this is the agenda, this is what we're going to deliberate on, then yeah, it's a meeting, it should be posted. But when you go in to say we're here to listen, that's all, and that's all we did, then it is not by the definition of open meeting law, a meeting, because we are not deliberating, we're not, there isn't an agenda, it's there to listen. Yeah, that's oh, and then the public records request my understanding is that's completely separate from this and they're not necessarily intertwined, but I could be wrong if clarification is welcome. Thank you. There is a separate public records request it's being worked on, it involves 100, I'm sorry involves 1,083 emails that have to be reviewed and redacted before they can be released. That's not a small task. Pat DeAngelis? What kind of emails? The public records request is a request that all of my correspondence with the police between now and I mean between July 5th and no and December 20th of and then all of my emails with counselors which by the way includes every email where I respond on behalf of the council to the public also involves communicating with you and that total which has been retrieved is in the process of being redacted is 1,083 emails and that is the emails between me and the council is only for the month of November and till December 20th. That is what's going on with that and we're trying to respond and provide at least the first batch of those emails but those are separate requests, they were not by the same people and they were not connected in the request. Pat, Pat, you need to unmute. I'm sorry Carol was clapping to get the dog to go out and that's why I didn't come right on I apologize. I want to preface what I'm going to say with a quote from Alice in Wonderland and it was spoken by the caterpillar oh no it was spoken by Humpty Dumpty when I use a word Humpty Dumpty said it means exactly what I choose it to mean nothing more and nothing less. It's a very important quote to what I see happening in many council meetings which is a playground of words, an insertion of the word brutal, the insertion of words that make us feel different and uncomfortable and I'm getting tired of it. What I see and hear or saw and heard at the police department was very interesting it was a group of men and women who were sharing what it was like to work in Amherst and how their families were feeling and things like that. It was important to hear several statements were made that I did not agree with but I didn't challenge anyone because we were there only to listen and I have spoken with other counselors in my on the four years that I've been a counselor have gone with other counselors to speak to the police department to speak to the fire and EMS department I have met with DPW people and I do not expect that I will ever have to ask permission to speak to the town staff unless I'm asking them to do something for me but if I'm there to listen it becomes very important listening to the fire department enabled me to fight to expand that department listening to the fire department did not stop me from freezing to police positions and expanding crest members from four to eight even though they challenged me and told me that that made that was terrible because they were trying to get staffing so I'm getting real tired of distortion of facts and a real lack of transparency that has existed between members of the community safety and social justice committee and this council when we have tried to reach out to families when we have tried to reach out to the children when the police department tried when DEI department tried to reach out they were denied and kept separate by the decisions of one or two people on the community safety working group it is about time that we come together and stop playing with the word trust and try to establish guilt or innocence using the word trust so when I use the word patricia de angeles says I want it to mean what I truly mean and I think my words usually do I would like that from more counselors shallony you've not spoken yeah um I think I just wanted to say a couple of things one is the question since we were all not attending the meetings how can we decide that and I think we can all speak for the meetings that we attended if there was a violation and I can speak to the meeting I attended and there wasn't a violation of open meeting law there was no deliberation of any issues we heard it was so important for us to hear at least for me to hear what the police experience has been and how I'll come to that in a moment but and the TSO was brought up there was there's nothing that the TSO is discussing right now that pertains the police and there was no deliberation amongst the TSO members that I am member of at the meeting itself so again there was no violation over there and I do want to speak to the intention of what is the intention for raising this question and about the open meeting law violation is the intention that we wanted an opportunity for the community to also meet with the police I mean was that the intention in which case we can still do that everything and I believe the police had asked for the community members to reach out to them and they've always said they have an open door policy and they have not been taken up on it let's say we want as a council we feel that oh this we heard something that was so valuable and now we want the community members to hear it why not present it that way as a recommendation hey this would be really great for the community to come and meet so let's put it that way why does it have to be put in the context of oh there was an open meeting law violation and there was a lack of transparency and why are we making these assumptions without asking did anyone come and ask me I haven't spoken to any single person no one has come and asked me like what happened for you and you know what what was your experience so how are we jumping to these conclusions without really asking and and also to mistrust our intention without any reasoning for mistrusting the intention of the individual councillors yeah we want to get best practices if that's our intention how do we engage with the staff moving forward let's discuss that let's put that on an agenda but again why does it have to be in the context of how wrong this was and how we have been so lacking transparency and all of that the emails went to all of us and if any of us felt there was a violation of transparency we could have brought it up back then but we didn't and that's fine and now you think okay we should we should make it more transparent let's do it let's have a meeting with the police formally but I really I mean I would second what Pat just said that it is very exhausting that instead of actually doing the work for our communities to be thinking of what we should be doing in the youth standard what we should be doing with what are the best practices we're spending so much of our time just debating and discussing and mistrusting each other so I really hope 2023 is where we can focus on what is our intention we want to bring the community together let's bring up solid recommendations for what what we want to do over there and so again from my end there was no violation and I truly appreciated the opportunity and for me it was personally important just the last point because after reading the town manager evaluations where there were many police members who spoke about the impact it's having on their lives and how what it's like working for the town of Amherst I was one of the people who wanted to reach out and reached out to Lynn and said hey I want to hear what's going on and so I think it is important in our role to create a safe community for everyone that we do listen to everyone make space and if we think that we can do this better yeah let's hear the suggestions for that without any kind of accusations thank you so before I go back to Michelle and Alicia the question before the group tonight is not how do we move forward although I think that is the most important question the question before the group tonight is whether or not you support the motion that is before you and Mandy Joe at some point you may want to make your either friendly amendment or amendment that motion then brings this issue to the next level goes on to the Attorney General's office they make a determination whether there was an open meeting law violation and then from there on we see how the process flows however we're not going to sit here tonight and try to solve what should be the next steps I think this has been a very useful conversation there's many times I wish I'd done something differently this certainly is one of them but listening to the police was not something I did would want to do differently they deserve to be heard as did the people who came to us on behalf of the teenagers who were involved in the incident on July 5th and spoke for four meetings in front of the council to let us know how they felt and then we finally went and listened to the police to find out how they felt and the only difference is we didn't ask them to come before the council to do that but there was no an open meeting law violation believe me I wouldn't have done that if it was Andy Joe you have your hand up I know you invited me to make that motion but I've already spoken and so have Alicia and Michelle so I believe they should go first Michelle thank you I want to respond to a couple things first to Pat I used the word brutally I said that I felt brutally uncomfortable and I did and I'm not sure why there was a judgment passed on that I'd also like to respond to Lynn in regard to whether if we felt uncomfortable or not we could have raised that concern I did raise that concern with my president I said I had concerns and her response at the time was if you have concerns maybe you're you'll just maybe you should decide not to come I also encouraged you to call me and we weren't able to find that I totally agree I totally agree all I'm saying is I this is not about whether there was an open meeting I know it is about whether there was an open meeting law violation but the defensiveness in this conversation not even to hear the voices of myself or Alicia or Dorothy I feel entirely unheard and except for Lynn really just saying now that if she were to do it again she would do it differently and I do feel heard in that because I think that's at least what I'm trying to say I will use the listening session for the AHRA which is happening on Wednesday and there will be zero deliberation and yet I was required to post that meeting and I was required to go through you know a 30 minute or I was asked to speak for with Athena for 30 minutes so that we could make sure that everything was in its place so that there was no open meeting violation that's a listening session no deliberation is occurring and in fact I would say that the sensitivity of what would be spoken about in that meeting I wish that that there was an opportunity for people of color in the community to and black residents in the community to be able to speak without having it be staged in public if that's what they wanted but I didn't know I don't we don't have that option so this is about different scenarios being treated differently different people being treated differently and what I'm asking for is to be heard by my fellow counselors that I felt uncomfortable with what occurred it felt different and it didn't feel like it had the integrity and transparency that I know this council wants and so to to reiterate I know this isn't the time for that conversation to occur but to reiterate that I want to make sure that we develop best practices together um that allow us to avoid this situation in the future thank you Alicia um thank you Lynn I have a few things to say but first I just wanted to make abundantly clear because of some of the things that Shalini said that it was nobody on this council here who um submitted the open meeting law complaint like that did not come from any of us so if you're asking why that happened no one here can let you know we are just responding just as much as you so I just wanted to make that clear because although I am making these statements that I did not submit this complaint so I needed that to be clear um there is so much that just happened and this is you know amongst a lot of other things we talk about a very difficult conversation to be having on the council um I will again state very clearly that I was not at any of the meetings and so I do not believe that I could definitively decide whether or not there was an open meeting law violation in any of those meetings I do have a question about the process and the origin of the meeting and how that came to be I think someone who was speaking earlier one of the councillors said something about if they ran into somebody and then they decided to go talk to some people then that shouldn't be a problem I fully agree and that is not what happened here if you and one other councillor went and talked with the department members that I mean I don't think there's a question about that the question is because every councillor was involved and whether or not that was an open meeting law violation I think that is the question mark um and so I think more clarity on what constitutes an open meeting law violation would be helpful um what was sent to us in KP law is slightly helpful but to me I still have questions and because of the fact that there is no evidence there is no way to say definitively that any of those things are actually true also I wonder again about the process because if there were a multiple meetings that happened and that were not planned and then all councillors had access to certain information before decision making does that not make it serial communicating and so that's what's unclear to me in this process is how the meetings came to be what was the origin did the police approach us and say hey we really want to be heard we want a listening session because I again it's not clear to me transparency but I do not think that that's what happened and I also think that that would have been a completely different thing if the the PD reached out and said we want to have a listening session we want all of the councillors to come we have a lot to say we have a lot to share and it's not clear to me that that's what happened and so I would be more interested in knowing whether or not the process to which got us to those meetings happening was a violation of the open meeting law rather than the meetings themselves um I also agree that it is very important for us as councillors to be listening to count employees to be hearing them to be hearing their experiences I know a lot of the decisions that we make affect them directly a lot of the decisions that we make are what they do during the day like what we do constitutes what their job is so I do agree that that is very important we're talking about process here and not that in my opinion I don't think it's not that that meeting should have never happened but I'm wondering about how did it come to be why was it different than other meetings that have happened that have been similar and I'm still very very unclear about these things which is why I'm saying that it's the transparency that makes me uncomfortable with this situation and when there is a lack of transparency inherently and this happens in any situation for most people that leads to a instance of distrust there is a lack of trust when there's a lack of transparency this is not demonizing this is not angry this is it just simply is the way it is when you're unclear about something when you're unsure it's hard to trust in any situation so I just wanted to be very clear because I know that because there is a lot of deep rooted history and on the council itself things that we've been discussing specifically the July 5th incident that pertain to this matter I think aside from those things even if none of those things happen when people don't know how can they trust trust is something you have to build it is something you have to work on and so you know when I was working on the CSWG that's what we were really looking into what steps can we take that will help us to build the trust trust needs to be restored and I still strongly feel as though this was a step in the wrong direction towards building and repairing trust and transparency again so I did want to say that and also echo something that I think is very very important that is being missed here aside from the open media law complaint itself in that we should hold space consistently and so if we're holding a sort of space saying that the PD has an open door policy that's not enough that is not creating space for somebody to feel safe to feel like they can be heard you're asking them to walk into a building that could be traumatizing like you're talking about creating space for people and so yes like I am glad there was space that was created for the PD where they felt safe like they could share I wish that was shared with more people I wish we could share that with more people I wish this was consistent we did not offer that same type of intimacy to the to other people in this community who have experienced things and who also had a lot to say just saying hey come talk to the PD any time that's not it we have to get it's the same thing as when you're when you're organizing community organizing and you're saying things like we need to go out into the community right like when we're saying we need to meet people at their doors we need to knock on doors in neighborhoods if we want people from apartment complexes to be able to engage it's the same thing we need to create space where they feel comfortable we cannot continuously ask people to come into our spaces and expect them to feel okay we need to create spaces where people can be okay and sometimes you have to take the extra step to do so and I feel like we missed a lot of extra steps here so I'm sorry for rambling but I feel like this is a very important topic that I hope we can continue to conversate aside from the open meeting law complaint itself I think this is something we need to talk about a lot more and I don't think we have the information that we would need to make a decision definitively as a council an accurate decision as to whether or not this was an open meeting violation or whether one occurred at all mandi joe so i'm going to ask for a friendly amendment and um because that we add the phrase at the end of the motion comma that the town council did not violate open meeting law well even you and pat i made the original motion who was the seconder pat pat do you accept that yes okay are there any other comments at this time shallony yeah i just want to capture two things that i've heard and i'm hoping that we can continue at a different time or have it on the agenda one is the best practices for engaging with our staff and in the future yeah what that might look like and secondly i'm not sure if i heard alicia correctly but you're suggesting that we create a space for the community to mean in a state not like in the police department but maybe a facilitated dialogue with the police and the community is that something we should be talking about again that's the next steps shallony yeah okay but just i just wanted to put it in the future so just make sure that those are some of the ideas yes i definitely think those are both pieces of what i've heard as well michelle i just have a process question please um we have to respond within a certain amount of days which this meeting falls within can our response be that we're not ready to make a determination for whatever reason we want to wait for public records to come back or whatever other reason do we have the ability to have that as our response athena yes um but the public records are not involved in this open meeting complaint it's specific to the meetings that were held at the police station there was not an accusation that the council violated the open meeting law via serial deliberation so um the question in front of you is whether or not the council violated the open meeting law at those two meetings athena we need to have you speak more into the mic in the future thank you um i can't hear paul yeah just to build on that i think you a quorum a quorum of the council constitutes a open meeting law violation you have the entire council present so if a quorum if a quorum of the council felt like they violated the open meeting law they would say that tonight right you would have it's the council that this is a complaint against the full council so the council needs to vote on this um and so that's why i think if you you have everybody here who was involved in that meeting you know what the law is you should be able to make a decision whether there is a violation or not there isn't anything uh in writing that would help you inform your decision because i don't you know what the law is you're all present here today you can make a judgment on whether there's a violation or not michelle does that answer your question um well if a quorum of the um well it sounds like the council could decide that we're not ready to make a determination and that could be a response to within the 15 days um i i guess i'm trying to understand i'm i'm sorry paul i'm feeling point of information yeah i believe what athena was saying was that it was in that 15 days we could ask for an extension of time to respond but our response cannot be we're not able to respond like the there could be a formal request to extend the time allowed to respond but our formal response simply can't be we can't decide does that make sense that's exactly what i was asking um and i feel honestly it sort of feels like a no win situation in this council because from i'm trying to ask genuine questions about this process and i'm getting shade from town manager about it i mean paul when i just asked you turned around to athena and said oh man i i'm just trying to ask okay well that's what i perceived i am feeling like there is no good way to have this conversation because the defensiveness here is just it's really over my like within it's not in my capacity to handle the kind of defensiveness that is here and so um are we in a position to be able to abstain from yes okay thank you and if you want to abstain and make a statement as to why you're abstaining that would be fine as well alisha okay i apologize because i know this is exactly what michelle just asked but i still need clarity so we can ask for an extension of time but the the vote itself cannot be a vote of we don't have the information to make this decision right now is that yes the the council's decision tonight is to instruct kp law or to authorize kp law to respond to the complaint that response could be yes we violated the open meeting law no we didn't violate the open meeting law or we would like kp law to request an extension okay and those are only three options my understanding is that those are the options tonight okay thank you athena you're welcome um and then my other comment um just in response to what paul said is that i respectfully disagree that we have the information just because we're all sitting here and we're all counselors who are in the meeting to be able to say whether or not there was a violation because how would one person know what happened at all the other meetings so like possibly each one person could speak to their meeting but also in the report the original report the original president's report there was not like a list of people at each meeting or a list or like any information about what the meetings what the meetings were so again there's no documentation to prove and i don't want to make this like i distrust anybody because i don't i trust all of you here but we are just being asked to like yes i was there and there was not a violation and that's it i there's no anything is that really how it works there's no proof we're just taking everyone's word for it even if we weren't there even if they weren't at the other ones we're just it just didn't happen each each counselor certainly speak for themselves okay and um whether they believe they were involved in an open meeting law violation i think that's what the vote is about so each counselor personally themselves well and not for counsel as a whole that's the confusing part because it said this violation was on the council as a whole the violation is on the council as a whole the vote is by the council as a whole if a person votes in favor of the motion they are voting to say i don't believe there was an open meeting law violation if the person is voting against that they're saying i believe there was or i believe there was that they're voting against it okay and the other option is the question that counselor miller asked and that is can we just abstain because we don't feel comfortable voting one way or the other on this and then state your reasons why okay and regardless of the ultimate end decision the kp law memo in response to the complaint has to be a reflection of the whole conversation that happened tonight or just of the majority decision well there have been some changes requested in the memo i believe that the kp law memo has to reflect the vote is that correct is there anything else the kp law memo has to reflect paul or athena i think the the council could ask that it something else be included like had been done earlier so for example three counselors or two counselors voted to abstain and here's why can that be included we can ask that that being okay that's i mean i i think that's perfectly acceptable but i'm not a lawyer either um alisha does that help yeah and i think that that makes me feel better about it if we could at least include that but the reason why i'm asking again is because the language itself says that kp law will respond um oh sorry i don't have the language right in front of me but that their their response is going to be a reflection of the the council conversation and i think that this conversation as a whole is inconclusive so they're not reflecting the conversation they're just reflecting the vote the conversation may be inconclusive about because some people in the conversation feel that they're still missing information but if the overall body votes to support the motion with the friendly amendment then that's what gets filed what i'm suggesting is that for people who either abstain or vote no that we should also include those statements with kp law i i'm perfectly fine with that does that help you alisha okay ono so my sticking point is we're talking about an open meeting law violation open meeting about open meeting law has like an equation right that you have to meet in order to be an open meeting that's right and what i'm stuck on is the the first element of this is that it has to be and i'm looking at page two from the memo definition of meeting this is not something kp law made up this is pulled from open meeting law which is a meeting expressly shall not include attendance by quorum or sorry is a attendance by quorum up a public body and deliberation by that public body so we can i understand what you're saying in terms of if i wasn't there how do i know that there wasn't deliberation and yet that's a fair that's a fair question however if there wasn't a quorum of the public body it doesn't even i'm not going to say it doesn't matter because it still matters but it doesn't even hit that first threshold right so the first threshold is that there had to have been a quorum of the public body there this complaint was directed at the town council there was not a quorum of the town council at the at any of the meetings that list has been provided so i think that there is so much i mean i've got like pages of notes here of things that we should add to our that we need to hash out as our own public body as a quorum that that need further discussion and deliberation however where i'm getting stuck is that this has very clear cut thresholds to meet in order to be considered an open meeting and then to have had that violated and we didn't even clear the first one which would have been a quorum of this body so i think that's the part that i'm stuck on that i don't see that as something that needs interpretation and and i could be that's my perspective and i don't need folks to share that but um that's not information that's necessarily debatable we have the list of who was there um and it was not a quorum of this body there were not seven counselors present so i hope that that's my reason for for um believing that this was not a violation jennifer uh yeah i that's i guess where i'm coming down also it seems that it's there is some an objective determination of what violates open meeting law and if there wasn't a quorum it didn't but what i'm always uncomfortable is we have to take these votes oh obviously that's what we were elected to do but the votes aren't nuanced and i totally hear and appreciate and it's what um alicia said that with the police department we went to their space where they're comfortable and i think you hit the nail on the head because i haven't felt totally i haven't comfortable with what happened and i think that was it we went to them which is very different than having like the committee come to us and we should meet the community we're in their space and and that you know doesn't feel like in that sense we treated the two parties the same so i will probably i will vote that i don't think we violated open meeting law because there wasn't a quorum of the council at any one of the meetings because i was only one so i don't know what transpired at the others but if there wasn't a quorum it seems that that's not a violation but that doesn't mean that i'm completely i'm comfortable necessarily with how it was handled and i think everybody agrees if we maybe did it again we would do it differently i i jennifer i want to just say i agree with you totally there wasn't a violation could it have been handled differently absolutely it wasn't and i think alicia hit it maybe part of it on the head of what was different about there i think we've heard a lot of different things here tonight that have to be internalized with the council and they're part of how we move forward i think one of the ways of moving forward to be honest is to just say vote on this and move on because otherwise it's just going to keep sitting out there and it's not going to help us move on mandy joe i call the question okay um the question's been called that's not debatable um so um the question we have to vote first is there a second a second motions yes the question's been called it's been seconded it's not debatable correct i'm sorry i'm too entrenched in the rest of this conversation so we now move immediately to whether we're not voting on the motion we're voting on the question being called correct thank you um we start with michelle miller no dorthy pam pam rooney yes gathie shane and just let me check we're we're voting on the call the question yes yes andy steinberg all right jennifer tov yes alicia walker no shallony bill milman no pat de angeles yes anna devlin goth here i when greece merson i mandy joe hannity i anika lopes i anyone so it's nine voted in yes three nays and one abstention none absent so we move immediately to the question the question that's on the floor is the following to authorize kp law to respond to the open meeting law complaint filed by alegraclark dated december 20 2022 on behalf of the town council consistent with the council's discussion on january 9 2023 that the council did not violate open meeting law that's the question before you we start with dorthy pam i'm sorry pam rooney point of order yes is there no additional discussion on the motion that's what calling the question so yeah we can't have any okay there's obviously opportunity for other discussion at other points but on this motion no okay pam rooney abstain i did not attend any of the meetings okay um kathy shane yes indy steinberg hi jennifer tov yes alicia walker i'm so sorry lin can you read read me the motion please yes actually um to authorize kp law to respond to the open meeting law complaint filed by alegraclark dated december 2022 on behalf of the town council consistent with the council's discussion on january 9th 2023 that the town council did not violate open meeting law i'm abstain thank you okay um shallony bowman yes pat te angeles hi anna delin goth here hi lin greece mersen i mandy johannike hi anika lobes hi michelle miller abstain dorthy pam abstain so i have it's nine uh in favor none opposed and four abstentions okay so the motion passes uh the people who abstained one of you has already said you abstained because you were not there are there any other statements that you'd like to make about your abstention alicia um i mean i would state the same thing i abstain because i was not there and it is not clear to me that there was not a violation of the open meeting law okay michelle i'm not even clear on what the motion that we just voted means um so i i feel like i i it says as a reflection of the conversation i that language is really unclear to me um because the conversation was diverse so i think what it means is that we are agreeing as a council that there was no violation and maybe that's the amendment that mandy was trying to that is what add in right so uh yeah thanks okay uh and dorthy you were the other abstention yes i do not want to say that we did violate the open meeting law because we did not have a quorum because i think there are other reasons why we did not violate the open meeting law and that quorum could be seen as a clever way of breaking up the quorum into a series of meetings and not having one big meeting so but i these two reasons would be i would assume as i was not there no agenda and no deliberation however because there were no written records and i wasn't there i can't be sure there was no agenda and no deliberation but i think those would be the better reasons to say there was no open meeting law violation however there has been concern raised about the way the meeting was set up in terms of notifying the public and giving adequate notice and i do think those are concerning issues but as kp law would put it i would say we probably did not violate open meeting law but i feel abstaining is the only thing i can do okay all right um we're going to move on to the town managers goals and ethanah and i have talked about how to try to organize this and um we'll try to see if we can get through them okay so the various people have submitted changes they would like to see ethanah has compiled that into one document and we're going to view that document at this point i think we want to start at the very beginning there in the fourth paragraph there is a change that has been recommended this how i'd like to approach this as follows if you agree with a change that's been recommended then that's fine if you do not agree please raise your hand and we'll discuss it we're going to go piece by piece and there may come a point where we actually have to take a motion so is there the very first change i think ethanah what we're seeing is still point of question i guess yes should we have a motion on the table first if there might be times where we have to do a motion to amend sure so the motion on the table would be the following to adopt the 2023 town manager goals as amended at the january 9 2023 town council meeting is there a second second i'm on got there okay all right ethanah can we see can we see just one screen at a time i guess sir so i just wanted to show these are all of the changes that i received from counselors and i've incorporated them into one document but there are places where someone suggested taking out a whole section and someone else suggested changing that section so it's i'm sure mandy knows better than anyone it's difficult to reconcile those all into one document but nothing is final it's just easier to accept and reject changes in this one document so i have everyone's changes it's just difficult to show in one place so especially in sections where someone has suggested a change and someone else has suggested removing the entire section please pull your pull your mic closer first of all and second of all somebody just raised a question jennifer i have my hand stop and i'm seeing here is not what you sent us as being the final right jennifer that this is the one that incorporates all the changes that i've received pat the one she's showing is the one we're going to discuss the changes on right then i was going to request that it be made a little larger i can see it now but i also wonder if the changes i suggested that today are included or will they have yes yours are okay thank you thank you there were suggestions for changes received up till five o'clock or so maybe even six and um they're all incorporated here okay does that help yes thank you athena are you asking for a break at this point no no okay i'm so okay let's go to then to the fourth paragraph under the introduction so that's was already in the document that was in the packet that came out of our discussion last wednesday so you're saying this had already been accepted at g ol well i left it tracked because g ol did not see the language they just told me what they kind of wanted and i came up with something that's why i left it tracked so counselors could see what the change was okay please read the change and then it raise your hand if you have any problems with it aana sorry first problem me uh so i the way i'm reading this it seems present a plan to the town council for accommodating their resources or modifying their performance goals are we giving the town manager permission to modify his own goals no i didn't think so i just wanted to make sure that was it was very clear it was intended that he either the plan would either be here's here's the how we would do it within the financial guidelines or if you can't do it within the financial guidelines we need to modify these goals great which would come then back to the back to the council saying both of those what do i do basically what do you want to do which one perfect thank you are there any further questions on this one are we ready to accept it and paul i really want to invite you to make comments at any point in time too so we're ready to accept this change i'm seeing no hands moving on let's accept it and go on okay athena in the next one i think you said you got different comments and i think let me just raise the issue that comes up here for me okay some people feel the goals that we are presently working on the bylaws etc that we are presently working on should be included in the goals some people for some reason feel they shouldn't be so it's an overall decision and in this case it's the issue of also is this achievable within what what is achievable within the year that we have of our left of our term so pat thank you i'm suggesting under climate action that we remove number three about the waste hauler bylaw and also for e support the work of developing a solar bylaw i have another thing i'd like to do in community health and safety which i which is not going on to that one christine okay but it would be for the same reason i believe that the simple addition of the phrase under developing and revising legislation to if we made that change in section seven the relationship with the town council of the town manager go the town manager goals it addresses the support that would need wait wait what am i okay i'm sorry i'm reading the wrong thing and i totally blew something i am concerned that we're listing in the town manager's goals both new legislation and revisions to lez legislation that have not been voted on by the council i find this deeply problematic and i happen to support the three things that i would like to have removed but i am suggesting we remove them because they do not belong here and if we simply add in section under the section seven relationship of the town manager with the town council and if we simply added to that number one developing and revising legislation it covers all of the three things that i'm asking that we remove um this is again where we haven't voted on waste hauler we're you know and so it doesn't belong here what belongs here is is that we need support from town staff and the town manager and believe me i support the waste hauler bylaw but it does not belong here nor does support the work of developing a solar bylaw which i also support okay i want to limit this discussion to five minutes it's now 11 no it's 10 13 uh shallony um so the reason i think we do need to have that specifically stated is because we have heard from paul in our tso meetings um that that uh do direct resources for the staff to study this issue and come up with a plan uh or alternatives the town council has to support it and so i think by stating and and pat we are not seeing that we are going to implement it says and if adopted start implementation so what is what we are asking for is just the town manager direct resources to uh look into it and come up with a feasible way to do it so yeah which is why i feel it needs to be specifically stated okay uh pam agree jennifer should i propose the language sure okay and again i agree with shallony the town manager has has specifically asked that if we want uh staff dedicated to doing the work i mean no the bylaw hasn't been passed but it's not going to get back to the council in any kind of form for the council to vote on unless we um follow the town managers request or respond to his request to include it in his goals so i am asking that for number one climate action objective number three if the language could be reinserted take necessary steps towards and support the town council in developing a waste taller bylaw that is feasible and meets the goals of offering universal curbside compost pickup and pay as you and a pay as you throw fee structure um and again there is already a solar bylaw working group which is also different with the solar bylaw that was that is working on the bylaw on the solar bylaw the waste taller it won't be worked on unless it's in the town manager goals um i'm going to just also comment that if there's something that we need town resources and the town manager is going to have to come back to us on then it does seem to me it needs to be reflected in the goals whether this reflects that and what's feasible in this year is unclear mandi joe so a couple of things i support removing it but i do actually have a question because i think some of us are coming at this from different things crc's been working on a rental registration bylaw for nearly a year and we've had town staff support and i think that's been because it's in the goals under council interaction with the manager that you need to support the committees um so what makes this one different than that and so i guess that's my question to paul and i wonder if what i'm hearing from some counselors is that tso isn't intending on writing the bylaw they want someone else to write the bylaw but i thought we referred this bylaw to tso for tso to write the bylaw and so now i'm really confused and so i'd like to hear from paul um does he need it in here or does the support that uh pat was talking about adding into the goal about council support and council interaction would that be enough so i did ask for this to be enunciated in the bylaw as the counselor said the reason for that is that we're getting a lot of initiatives from counselors and then we counselors are have learned to come and talk with staff before they become more you know develop their own initiatives which we appreciate but the problem is that each of these initiatives requires staff support so if this is this is a major initiative will require substantial mass staff time um and and so i think that this is the type of thing that i would ask for the council to say yes we want you to dedicate time to this and then we would start to outline the amount of work that's going to take to put together a proposal for a waste hauler bylaw um and so it's hard for me to dedicate staff and i and we have learned a lot from our zoning experience about how much time it takes to support all these zoning amendments um that's a different animal because the zoning bylaws originate with the town council um and so you know i think that that's i just want clarity from the council in terms of allocating our staff and because as more of these come up we're trying to struggle with meeting the demands we're um we're spending all of our staff time on supporting these things and i want to be able to enunciate i mean i'm not being very explicit clear about this um but i'm i want the council in my goals to tell me what you want me to do this year um because there's a lot of things happening in mid-year that that are expecting staff's staff work put into it it's that it's not clear i'm sorry so i i'm confused does that mean if we don't include like the lighting proposal that's already at tso or the bylaw that we just referred to crcm planning board on duplexes and all in your goals that you're going to decide not to support that i guess i'm just confused you're saying oh if it's not in my goals specifically i'm not going to dedicate staff time to it but our goals say that you have to support our committees and these are already in committee right so so what happened so i mean i think this is a really good conversation because what happens you'll have a couple counselors who come up with an idea they would like to pursue it goes to the council the council says sure let's look into it there is no identification of how much staff time these things are going to take and so i think that it's really valuable to have this sort of conversation and it's sort of a chicken and egg situation because you don't know what you're going to do until you have more information um so i'm trying to wrap my arms around the many initiatives that are coming from the council and so one of the things i said is before i start dedicating staff time you know from the dpw into this process i wasn't really sure if the council was fully behind it and i was i was using this document as an opportunity to say yes the council really wants to do it yeah i'm sorry use your mic please some some um proposed by-laws or by-law amendments take more time than others and this was going to because it would be your effort right and this had to do with the town administering a service that hasn't before so it will take more time to work out hold on a minute um alisha i know you also have your hand up and this is something you've been sponsoring too alisha yes thank you i won't take too much time but i just wanted to support um the amendments that jennifer suggested and in terms of um keeping this there um and so then i also just wanted to support that we were told that in order to move this forward it needed to be in the town manager goals so that staff could apply time to it and so that we could come up with i mean literally was what it says that an implementation plan that is feasible which we cannot do without staff's input and so i support keeping this and adding the amendments that jennifer proposed thank you dorthy on this issue there was never thought that the members of tso are going to create a piece of legislation uh from what they thought it might be it was always understood from the guidance that we received from the town manager that the staff that would be enforcing this would have a lot of input it doesn't mean that whatever they suggest it would be accepted by tso but it was a manager thought oh we were just right the law ourselves no that was not the intention it was to consult this with the staff to see what they think could be how it would work and i gather they have thought about this at some point in the past so we have to include it in the town manager's goals if it's going to be worked on but i have another suggestion that was mentioned there used to be and i'm a little vague on this but you'll know what i'm talking about an opening paragraph on goals that refer to on climate change referred to something the 2018 goals and it was in the past it was there but it was removed this year i think if that were put back um that would be the general statement that would um the very first lead sentence says to continue to make progress on the council's climate action goals those are the goals we took action on in 2019 the the date of the vote was removed but the climate action goals are still there so so that's there because at one point that was gone but okay i'm glad that's there thank you mandy joe thanks i really want to recognize mandy joe has really been managing this document so there's times i may have to rely heavily on that andy yeah the one thing that's a little bit awkward is that this didn't arise from the climate action plan itself but does fit into climate action and uh we'll achieve some of the climate action goals but i think the one of the important things to remember is that the council to discuss it the council did vote to refer to tso and ask tso to work on developing it and um steps have been taken including um the town manager and uh dpw obtaining um a grant from dpw for technical assistance and uh so we are moving in a direction and uh it would uh therefore um strike me as totally contrary to uh the referral and the steps taken since the referral to now uh not included to make a decision not included i think it really does need to be there i'm hearing consensus that we should add this back in and unless somebody disagrees with that i'm going to continue on okay and what about the end if adopted that wasn't included in what jennifer said so i was sure i'm sorry i can't hear you that should be there that should be there so i would say it shouldn't if paul just said it's a multi-year effort okay you just said this would be a multi-year effort to get even the bylaw developed so no i don't it it should be there i i actually couldn't read it in this it was so small are you saying it should be there it should be there i mean the language that was there when we started the gl meeting or that it should be and if adopted start implementation which i think i frankly agree that it should be there because if it's adopted we'd start it if it's not it continues on to the next year this is the concept that some of these goals are in fact multi-year and we recognize that is there an objection to that shallony no i just wanted to um say yes to that but also just clarify that tso is uh writing up the bylaw so there seems to be some confusion around that okay yeah okay i'm fine i'm putting my hand down bye moving on okay moving on to the next area of this one develop and begin implementation of a plan for community stable sustainability support which includes heat pump programs for residents and utilization of pace program for multifamily and business retrofits um comments onna you have this yeah this one was mine um so the just i wanted to clarify what these were um this is something the heat pump program has already begun as is my understanding and so this is really kind of a continuation of of a goal um and heat the heat pump program would be primarily for i believe single family homes whereas the pace program is a funding opportunity that would go beyond simply heat pumps for multifamily and business retrofits so i tried to to put them together because i feel that they're both they both relate to this idea of community sustainability support right it's not it's not um about municipal buildings which are covered elsewhere in this in the goals but it's two initiatives that we um have already begun work on and need to be prioritized as part of our climate action um building uh sustained excuse me um retrofitting buildings and and providing heat pumps it's one of the largest ways that we can address our uh emissions mandate job i'd say so the only part of this i object to is the end begin implementation on because we don't know how long it will take to develop and it's not if developed begin by putting and begin implementation on it means we expect it to be developed in under a year and then begin implementation and we're asking too much of the manager i would agree i hear you say oh sorry can i respond you accept that on well can i respond briefly sure um the the begin implementation came from the estimate from ecac because this has there has already been progress made um i would prefer to see it in there however if the council does not believe that it's possible um i mean it's a little tough i think that i would i'd ask paul and it's hard it's hard for it's hard for us to make that estimate right when we don't know the ins and outs of the program but i do hear what you're saying paul can we say develop and if possible begin implementation okay develop and comma if possible okay i think we're ready to move on to the next one which is we eliminated the solar by the law yet it's an active thing that people are spending a lot of time and we have a consultant on i don't understand why we would remove it pat's got her hand up and she'll probably say yeah i'm saying i'm withdrawing it i that's fine all right we're keeping that in okay we're moving on to community health and safety continue to support revision of residential rental by-laws i think we've basically said if we're working on it should be here i think it was part of pat's yeah i withdraw okay so we're putting that one back in uh next one is down what is now three identify the need that was that was that was mine and it was just that i think the need has been identified it's really explore options so i just got rid of the extra words i actually don't think the need has been identified i think the wish has been identified but there was supposed to be some further study about how it would happen paul do you want to speak to that um um we have not done a needs assessment we are exploring options for a youth empowerment center um if you you know one of our things would do we would be doing anyways exploring the need for it but i think um we're sort of simultaneously moving forward and looking for what what the options are for so if we go with starting with explore options for it's acceptable either one is fine okay then we'll go with explore options for one and the timeline was added in yes go ahead i think that's understood because i know pam was working on it economic vitality there's no changes housing affordability prioritize initiatives including federal and state grant opportunities i i love the i love the idea but the reality is we do that anyway um not sure why it's needed any other thoughts on that one pam take it out jennifer the language in number four added back in develop those strategies to stabilize and increase the non-student population in town i think if that's not a priority for the council you know that that i don't know why we're here my question on this is how would you do it i think it needs to be a priority that is something that we are that the town manager and the council is mindful of certainly in housing affordability i mean we have a bylaw you know proposed amendments for the zoning bylaw that's supposed to be getting to just this so i think it needs to be um and again i'm just going to quote from something that john hornick wrote this was going back to 2017 where he is talking about how um there is amherst has been he documented hundreds of families that have the decline in families of amherst and he says quote it is a trend that we must not only stop but actively work on reversing unquote and i think it just it needs to be out there as something that the council and the town manager is mindful of of and it's essential that that somehow be a priority any town that is losing population and year-round population in amherst should be concerned about that paul you don't see what you lose by putting including it so paul so thank you so i don't disagree with the goal i guess i think about this in 10 months what would i give to you that would show that i've met this goal and i would just a little well i guess maybe with the bylaw that is going to be that the the duplex the zoning bylaw amendment that's going to be coming maybe that's something that would be something that would have a planning board will be or the planning department will be working on that that this be some a lens through which they look at that paul does that okay so so bylaw changes is what you would think of in terms of or bylaw initiatives like to duplex would meet this yeah i would think that that bylaw initiative that could be a way to achieve this just to ensure that it does i mean the other thing that we keep talking about is looking at various in growing federal and state programs about housing ownership comes definitely into this but that's also included in the first time home buyers up above i'm just looking for hands that mandy joe have you always make that do i have to make that emotion or just i don't we don't need a motion yet mandy joe so i'm the one that suggested getting rid of it because i see it overlapping of number one it's very general paul's question was very logical what what would it be we have a master plan that talks about housing and everything for both student and non-student populations i'm always concerned when we single out one group which is why later on there's another deletion but you know jennifer with what you just said that bylaw proposals that pat and i in some sense just sponsored might address it i'm not sure i see much of a difference between number one and number four and i think it needs to be looked through it's like looking at a climate lens i think that's the lens and i think that maybe this helps us not um sort of uh have it be i don't know a trigger we are a college town and we have you know students and non-students and i don't think that should be a concept that we you know um triggers a negative you know and add there's any negative connotations around that conversation i think it is extremely important we are a town that the census has said our non-student population is declining that's a fact and i think that the town council and the town manager should be developing strategies and proposals however whether that's through bylaws to try and stabilize and reverse that trend so this is under housing affordability yeah i think it i think a major i think that our housing i mean let's get into another conversation for the last several years has been new housing development has been to serve one market and that's not a market that is helping to stabilize or increase our year-round non-student population and i i i i kind of can't believe this is controversial paul you still have your hand up dorothy yes i would like to say why that should stay in uh first of all the other part was talking about home ownership and this does not specifically say that because um one of this strat we need to propose strategies to stabilize okay uh and increase the non-student or you could say year-round population uh to stabilize that would mean doing something about single-family homes being turned into rental opportunities where people make huge profits by renting by the room that's not to do with home ownership but there are things that can be done that must be done to stabilize the housing supply uh the and that's those the housings are those apartments are not affordable okay for people who are year-round or people who are not year-round so it's not repeating that first part which is about home ownership and that says low income and moderate and um the rents that are going that are being charged now are are way beyond moderate they're getting into the stratosphere is for not much so i think stabilize is a very important word and and we should keep it in um i just want to note there's about seven hands up right now six hands and we are not going to stay on this much longer so we're either going to quickly make our comments agree disagree make a motion alisha um i very quickly agree with dorthy and jennifer jennifer yeah i guess if we want why it's also under housing um you know if there is a trend that houses don't go up for sale because they immediately go from the you know a realtor notifies um investors and llc's that houses for sale and then they're able to make buy it all cash i mean that and homeowner you know potential homeowners um owner occupants don't even have a chance to be in on on that uh conversation or that transaction i mean i think there's many things that come under housing that um speak to stabilizing our year-round population could i suggest a friendly amendment amendment explore strategies to stabilize the year round population in town can we say an increase can i just suggest that when you have a declining birth rate having anything that says increase is really a challenge i have no problem with it but i just want to be very clear that declining birth rates don't support increase but we're not just talking about people with children we're talking about the whole country is in a declining birth rate in the northeast is worse than any place college students are declining all over the country but umass is growing for the moment that's a later discussion uh do we accept this much yes didn't you just say year-round you took the word i to increase the year-round population and you you took out and increase so we like i just want to stabilize the year-round population not the non-season i didn't say year-round as i've been corrected on that some people say well students are some some are here year-round but that's fine you all students are here year-round they are that's why i say non-student that's why i said it because i non-student population all right um and nika um i thank you for your amendment i just wanted to say where i i agree with the intention here i think that if you know we should also be mindful that if we do not want to turn into just a a student and senior citizen community i think that it is important that we're changing language like this that welcomes students because you know these are going to be you know the young families that you want to be here to you know after they're here to invest themselves their business and and stay here so we want to you know i think that the more that we can say year-round and take out like identifying non-student i'm fine with year-round i've just been corrected on that so i have no problem we seem to have now agreed on the amendment as it's right before you let's just move on yeah one little piece there diana okay major capital building projects keep scrolling up i don't think there's anything here oh it was to remove the idea of an alternative plan if necessary kathy i think this was one of yours is this a big issue for you it it's not a big issue to remove it since paul said he's doing it okay but it's removed it's signals that we all think we need to have one yeah so okay racial equity and social justice um if we're going to make a scribner change above which is incorporating just go ahead and accept that one and here is where we get to the issue of do we just go with police or do we go with public safety departments paul you had a question your hand raised yeah so i wanted to address this because i just want to make it clear that this was not this was not identifying the police was my request it was not coming from the police department my feeling is that we've just hired created a new dei department our dei director is working very closely with our new hr director to develop trainings for all staff and my belief is that i would go to them and to say well what is your priority for training and you know when you talk to them they would say well we need to start with leadership as our first um priority and i i was really um i listened very carefully to what alisha said at the last time when she talked about why police would be one of the priorities and i thought that was a very powerful argument and then just as a side note the police uh have come to the dei director and said we're happy to be first out of the blocks on this if you want us to if you want to target us and not target us you want to identify us we're we're happy to be the first ones we're used to doing trainings and we've done a lot so if you wanted an example department please come to us so it's not saying that police don't want to participate and i think that was something that um was said previously and i think i just want to clarify that that's this is not coming from the police but my wanting to value our new dei and hr directors and saying to them what is your strategy for creating an anti-racist community i think it's really important um if the council wants to use the use the anti-racist racist language i think that would be a role as i said last time a good stretch goal for us not stretch goal but just something that would put a marker down there on where we're going um so um so are you saying that the police are willing to go first they've offered that yeah they've offered that to the dei director okay anika oh i i don't know my hand was okay michelle i just wanted to differentiate this um which is training um and i don't think there was really any opposition to starting with these departments that was sort of added in um it was in the personnel goal okay and i sent an amendment in for that where we talk about developing the anti-racist culture okay so are we saying that what we see up here right now is acceptable raise your hand if there's an objection see none except it you still had a couple parentheses back there was a double up above the end yeah there's a yeah okay we're moving on to management goals uh and the administration leadership there are none now under personnel management um i'm we had a couple different suggestions here michelle i believe yours was the one that's showing not crossed out yeah mine is uh the one that's underlined but not crossed out and i think sort of captures what paul was just speaking to okay can i just my own personal bias can be tested and tracked i'm i'm trying to figure out how you test and track the anti-racist culture i don't think i meant to use the word tested actually i did this very late as you know um i was trying to say that could demonstrate for other as you know to be a model for other town departments how about that can be a model so we say all town for other town departments yeah okay so take out now leave work leave that in that take out can be tested and tracked within the department i think the reason that i might have had that bit of language in there is just to say that we would actually be um collecting some sort of data uh in working with our apd as they begin this process with our d i department and the town manager to be able to reflect that in the model okay let me try this then that can be documented great as a model for all town departments is there any objection to accepting that and taking the other one off alisha i don't have an objection i was actually going to suggest documented but can it be that is like that is documented it is it says document and that is documented thank you of course um anna yeah i have a i have a question about this i think one of the things that we've talked a lot about is how unique uh police are in the in the work that they do in their origin in all of this um all of this that informs uh a lot of the need to work on developing an anti-racist culture within policing um let alone if that's anyway sorry there's a whole other thing but um within within apd um i question whether it's possible i think it depends on how you interpret this right so maybe leaving it up to interpretations fine but can you take something that is created for a police department and use it as a model let me try this okay and informs the model for other departments town departments yeah that feels better i just i don't want us to copy and paste because i do think that there are important distinctions that will um be created depending on the type of work that each department is informs the models for all departments or the models for other town departments instead of all i mean i think they all should have some sort of model for developing an anti-racist culture but that's better sure does that make sense i sorry i wasn't sure what word do you want in there hold up one person on all town departments michelle suggested deleting other okay i think for town departments is fine yeah okay are we accepting that so the other hands on it lesha mandy joe lesha sorry i'm just re-reading it okay okay this yeah i think the edits look good to me um i'm in agreement with them that's not why i originally raised my hand but oh okay let's go ahead oh no i'm just saying that that's not like i originally raised my hand just to be in support of but now there are amendments so i agree to the amendments great thank you mandy joe so the one thing i don't like about this is that it for a year long performance goal basically says work on do only the apd do nothing else for anti-racist culture um because it it says do the apd document it and that will inform i guess later other town departments but it doesn't say work with any other town departments for the year you know so i think we lost something in deleting fostering a proactive anti-racist culture throughout all town departments um the language that's there could be potentially after that first phrase that has been deleted um with maybe a starting with or working with the apd to identify them and that then that informs the models but i think by deleting that proactive anti-racist culture throughout all town departments actually loses something from this goal um for anything any department any staff other than apd and i i i just don't like that okay paul you have your hand up yes so i mean this isn't the universe of work that we're going to be doing i mean the d i department is doing a lot of things that aren't identified in this document but i i think a stronger um goal would be to start with foster a proactive anti-racist culture throughout all the town departments and work with the apd to identify steps something like that informs models for other times something like that but i think that i think the foster a proactive anti-racist culture is a really strong statement by the council and it pushes us um to move in that direction it actually gives gives a lot of direction to our dei department as well okay so in front of the words work put in foster a proactive anti-racist culture throughout all town departments starting with the apd and identifying steps sorry and i don't mean to interrupt but i think that's fine i don't think you needed to take out anything i think you just needed to add the foster or proactively anti-racist culture throughout all town departments and and then it's two separate things is that i think that's what paul said okay so comma and starting with the apd and work with no and work with apd okay and something was taken out yeah that should be added back alisha tell me what you wanted to say and work with sorry can you go back to the previous language is that possible like so so it would be after departments comma and work with the very yeah just starting with could just change to and and work work yeah okay anika i just wanted to confirm i think you did just say this paul but that this would be with the dei and um human resources department um is i believe just in brief discussions that their purview is going to ensure that you know all departments will benefit from this and we wouldn't be waiting a year for so yeah so they are developing plans i mean our our hr director's only been here a month um but they're developing plans and starting for and i think as i said previously their strategy i think and they haven't finalized this would be to start with leadership and have leadership go through the trainings that they that they want and then move it into the departments because they feel like the way you change an organization is through the leadership and they've done this in other communities so i or other organizations so i i my whole response to this was like let's let our dei director who's so talented lead the way on this but i think setting a a bar with that first phrase i think is really important alisha i agree thank you thank you alisha this was one near and dear to your heart you have your hand up um yeah so i'm i'm not opposed to the addition that paul suggests here um having that sentence or that phrase before the initiative but i did just want to clarify um because i think what i had asked for or requested in the gl meeting was were that the wording for this initiative were more closely matched to the wording from the motion that i had proposed that had passed and so i think this does achieve that because it does have that right in there so i wanted to speak to support that but then also to just further specify that the motion itself for this section and this is the reason why i also support the previous section underneath the anti-racism for the racial equity objective that is referencing training for all town employees and that's where we included the training and that this section is different from training um and so i also specifically just in case this this does pass which i hope it will um providing clarity for the town manager in that when it is said to identify steps to develop a proactively anti-racist culture it's not talking about training it's not talking about anti-racism training it's literally talking about identifying steps that can be taken and that those steps be different than just doing trainings and that those steps be taken within the pd with the intention to create a proactively anti-racist culture so i just wanted to provide clarity because i think a lot of the times when we're talking about this specific initiative separate from the one that's above that we're talking about um trainings and wow that is like one way to sort of arm yourself with a toolbox to approach these things that is not like proactively practicing your anti-racism and so that's what i'm looking for here and you find this acceptable to that the language yeah i just wanted clarity because when we talk about it sometimes people are always saying trainings trainings trainings and that's just not what i'm talking about anika um michelle yeah i want to suggest that we remove the second anti-racist culture i think it could just say and work with the apd to identify steps uh that are documented and inform models for town departments i agree okay are there any other objections or changes to this paul you have your hand up just to if i could ask for clarification from alisha like what would be an example of you know in 10 months when we look at this that yes you've met this goal what would you expect to see oh yes so i think that is the beauty of this because i want you and the apd to decide that together um and so like i don't i've never worked in a pd or in a department like that and so i don't know what protocols are i don't know what their responses are and so what i'm really looking for is for you all to be working together to look at what it is that they are doing on a day to day basis and identify either i don't know it could be protocols policies uh things that they say things that they do that are actively working to combat racism and how those things could be implemented into their day to day happenings of business and so like for the pd itself i have no idea what exactly that would look like but i think that because you all know the department best that you all can take the time to sort of think about what you do think about the small changes that can happen that would achieve that if that makes sense um and i also think why i think this works well with the uh above initiative is that once you take or are participating in the anti-racism trainings that you can take what you have learned in those trainings and then figure out how to apply them to your work directly in concrete ways because a lot of the time when we're learning about anti-racism it's abstract because we're not talking about each individual person so taking that abstract information and turning it into real concrete steps that we are taking personally or as a department i think there's a lot of flexibility here in terms of what exactly that looks like but i think that's the why the documented informing other models is really important because i think what the apd decides to do or what comes out of this will be really important in determining what that can look like for other departments as well okay Dorothy you have your hand up all right i think we've come to consensus on this one so let's accept and make i just want i just so i just want to say like in 10 months i just i don't want expectations to be like we were going to change culture in 10 months that you know our strategy will be trainings first and then and i i love what you're saying in terms of you think about what the changes are i think that's a real challenge to our staff so i appreciate that i'm not sure what what our answer is going to be and when i do the self-assessment on this but we'll work on it knowing Alicia shall set the bar high and accept progress municipal services we're eliminating this any questions moving on i'm sorry andy why are we eliminating it um it it was suggested who i don't know who suggested maybe job yep so so um the reason was because the very first intro paragraph indicates that's the whole goal of a municipality is to maintain essential municipal services that's why a municipality exists um and so for the last four years we haven't felt we needed a separate goal for it and i'm looking at ways to make paul's job possible and make our evaluation easier um and i didn't see given the introduction paragraph what benefit adding this particular goal to the performance goals for evaluation provided andy well i'm not sure that i would envision that being likely but if there is a diminution of what the community views as essential municipal services then where is the council left with a place to comment on that and i guess that's my concern about removing it okay door in yeah could i respond in number one to affect administration leadership to effectively and appropriate administrators appropriately administer the operations of town affairs pursuant to the charter that's it under administration and leadership and then as mandy job pointed out in the opening paragraphs uh the fourth fourth paragraph says these policy implementation goals are deeply related and overarching and should guide decision making at all levels of town government and the town's provision of municipal municipal services uh dorothy i didn't have a chance to quite totally get what you just said but municipal affairs municipal policies are not seen as the same thing as municipal services by many people um and in terms of the town manager this is the easiest thing you can say we we kept the streets plowed we provided basic services you know um because they keep scoring this stuff and he's got the records for it so it's not like this is asking him to do something new or more um this is the bread and butter so i wouldn't take it out kathy i i just have a suggestion um if you look at administration and leadership yes okay and it's got the first is anticipate future needs and position us to meet them second is improve the delivery of services to residents and businesses why not put a third maintain essential municipal services just plunk it in there okay and then you don't have to set it out as its own little thing because it's all part about administration and leadership i i'm fine with that andy i'm fine with that too all right we're going to take that sentence out we're going to move it up and the nice thing is administration leadership is really short so all you have to do is plunk a three there yeah do you're going too far yep right there stop no no no no no up higher there right there uh in the second paragraph to provide leadership one take the and out and two and then this becomes three there's three this thing we just moved so and three and you don't need the word two you don't need two you just it's anticipate improve maintain okay and then take the word out be and before number two and i guess this is supposed to be a semi colon after the word businesses yeah and the m and maintain would be capitalized thank you now we go back down we'll accept these changes go back down take out that whole thing okay finance anything under it with the effective management and disperse a a a ARPA funds with a lens of equity and inclusion and report to the council and blah blah blah and permittees are appropriate then okay let's deal with an a lens of equity and inclusion any questions about it accept it a question i'm sorry kathy okay um i've actually a couple of times suggested but i don't know whether we'll go along with this that the next trench of our performance be devoted to lowering the taxpayer uh debt exclusion override costs so if the lens of equity inclusion would include helping pay for the elementary school i'm really i'm fine with this if it would say and no that's not part of the pot um i feel it's too restrictive so i just you know i i think the ARPA funds are to vitalize the town to meet unmet needs to do a lot of things that is why the government so it's not that i'm against that lens it's just i have an idea of where we should be spending a chunk of money so that we don't have to ask for as big a tax increase manager i just wanted to ask paul what kind of restrictions are on how we disperse ARPA funds and would such language like this limit those those available uses uh this language does not limit in fact we include it in our when we are doing RFPs this type of language i'm not sure exactly what the language is but we have requirements for this type of thing so i'm fine if it's not limiting okay pat i i'm fine i wanted it there so you know what paul is saying supports that all right then we're accepting those two those set of changes and the Scribner error uh change and we're going down to the next one which is permit fees are appropriate is there any question about that one seeing none moving on to infrastructure right management maintenance and land stewardship i think the first suggestion was to move the word attractive because word word may well maintain covers that okay we are i'm hearing objectives met anna devin gother the word attractive is so personal and subjective that we could sit here for 17 more meetings discussing what makes something attractive i think i i said we could i didn't say we had to um and i think that that's why i would i would suggest taking it out i think we have committees and and staff who are responsible for knowing what uh meets general standards for well maintained and safe and if we start trying to discuss what's attractive gosh y'all are wonderful and we all have very different ideas of that so i i get i don't think that's appropriate to have in there unless there's massive objections i suggest we remove it okay i'm moving on number four create a multi-year plan for long-term improvements to and maintenance of public parks conservation land recreation land and public ways that ensure public accessibility safety sustainability biodiversity and recreation the idea is to remove it all and i um mandy joe did this come from you okay um so i i went through this looking at what's reasonable for us to expect from paul and his staff in one year um and we kept adding a lot of stuff in and this is not start creating it's not do it's have it done in a year on a staff that is already down and being asked a lot of on other grounds and i feel like we've already got plans um for at least the uses of these things and the long-term sort of plan of them we have a recreation plan we have an open space plan we have a master plan we have things and so i i just don't think this one's i don't think we need to reinvent the wheel and put that all on paul in one year so i would get rid of it okay pameroni yeah i was thinking more from the other direction that we have a lot of pieces but what we hear a lot of is that okay the hiking trails aren't very well maintained or it takes a lot of staff to get out and mow so we don't walk through tick infested fields and all of all of this takes staff time so i think from my perspective i would like to hear from the conservation department what it would take to raise the bar on maintenance of conservation lands we just don't know and so i think they end up doing it in bits and pieces i know they try to do it holistically but having a sort of a consolidated i'm a planner so i like plans um you know what are the pieces that they want to focus on priorities if you want to get rid of it stab myself alisha uh so i'm just want to add to the conversation here because i don't have a definitive like side that i'm on here i do hear mandy joe sentiments in terms of just adding and adding and adding um but i think and maybe if someone from the finance committee might correct me if i'm wrong but that in this also we were talking about something that i brought up which is why i think this is where i came from in terms of figuring out a plan for addressing the fields at the uh high school and that this fell into this umbrella of things um and then so for that reason i wouldn't want to take it out um however i think maybe i'm ending the language a bit because i do think it's unreasonable to expect that all of this will be done in one year um so maybe like changing the wording a bit so that it makes clear that the expectation is not that all of this will be done in one year i don't even think it's feasible to make a plan in one year given everything else we've hand the town manager that i think is the bigger question or to just start considering because maybe we don't need the whole plan but you know i mean i don't know but the town manager knows that managing a town is there's so many things and even if this is something that we wanted to look at in three to four years that we should probably start thinking about and gathering information and taking that into consideration now so let me ask you this if we say something that waters this down so much it says explore the feasibility of creating a multi-year plan by that point i'm saying you've watered this down so much let's just not take it out ana um paul do you know off the top of your head when the next update of the open space and recreation plan is due the last was done in 2017 yeah i don't know i know their focus is on hickory getting a plan for hickory ridge which is taking it's going to take a long time just for that parcel alone without looking at your town i'm gonna ask that's a build on that when is the next master plan due about 2028 i have a follow-up question yeah go ahead so so i have read the open space and recreation plan um and i opened it again because it's been a minute uh so i'm i think that do you in your mind does the open space and recreation plan cover the elements that are discussed in this goal and if so i'm curious if my fellow counselors believe so i i initially really supported this and i do support it the concept of it and i think the idea of a plan if we're thinking about something similar to a master plan or an open space plan those are those are huge um multi-year processes so i'm curious if you think that this is covered by that existing document even though it's due in a couple years probably to get redone or if you think that this is something different i think that's directed at paul i think you're looking to do an open space plan update that's what this is really about okay i don't know that it's i don't know that there's a mandated um deadline on when it's redone but it is a process that is read it was 2009 2017 it's in a it's in a regular cadence okay so the question is what are we doing with this jennifer i'm sorry i was skipping down to number seven i'm sorry i can't hear i was skipping down to number seven so should i wait okay please wait dorothy we're on number four okay uh i would like to keep this but to change the verb to just work on uh part first of all it's not like none of there's none of this has been done i i think that that in many ways these pieces exist in in ways that are above ahead of many other towns these are things that uh some people think about all the time um and i think they're very important so i would just say work on which means you know continue working maybe organizing a piece here maybe connecting a dot there but doing it not telling people when you have to do it but i i do think that's a lot of work has been started on this and um it's important kathy uh i would just point out that this is is happening it may not be happening in a way that we see it so my examples would be in cpac we they just went through warm memorial pool and another piece that's been on the to-do list in the capital planning piece and they have a trail system which trails are we doing when with which amounts of money so that is coming out so if what we really want to see is that what's in dav zomac and the recreation department's vision of what comes next we have some of that coming to jcpc already that we can't puffers pawn needs to be dredged but it costs an amazing amount of money so there is a multi-year set of things we need to do so i'm just wondering whether we're just want to note that michelle counselor miller has has had to leave the meeting so i'm worried that this feels like it's adding something rather than we have a process that's doing this already i have no objection to thinking of what we're doing but having sat through multiple recently in the past year where it says we're going to do this in five years from now this we don't know where we're going to get the money from to do this but if we can get a grant for this we'll do it tomorrow you know in terms of the lists because a bunch of these are really expensive okay uh hono yeah i apologize i don't think i finished my full thought i i i would support taking this out given that the way that it reads does indicate restarting an open space plan which i mean it's a 140 page document like this is a huge this is a beast right and so but i think it might what we might have been getting at with this was kind of what kathy was talking about which is that we'd like to see for the these different parcels especially new ones that we acquire we'd like to see what the management plan is that feels different than a full open space plan so i i do think that they're i would support take removing this at this point alisha and jennifer and dorthy you have your hands up okay alisha i mean i'm not i i would support a watered down version of it honestly um but i'm not gonna i'm not gonna protest it so i'm just gonna put my hand on okay jennifer i'm still on number seven so should i okay no i think we're taking four out at some point i'll put the hand the town manager may want to come to us with some idea about that but we're taking it out uh we're going on to what's now six and then we go on to the words regularly updated regularly maintain and that's already being done no it all before that it's because there's a proposal to eliminate delete number seven i see okay and we're deleting number seven let's just start with that is to re-examine and if feasible create an implementation plan for the bike and pedestrian plan put forth by the transportation advisory committee um mendi joe you you suggested eliminating this and somebody else made some other suggestion a thing that you know who it was jennifer maybe you were you were the person no i wasn't the person i just was gonna ask why it was take was it because uh too much on the town manager slate yes yeah i mean i'd like to see it in there but i'm all right so we're going to eliminate number seven how how much does that add to your plate i'm sorry what paul is that burdensome so i think we'll talk about that a lot it will to create an implementation plan i don't know i'd have to talk with dpw about what it would take and you know i think yeah i just don't know the answer to your question my i'm gonna just say i just think this is one of those that's come up it's a great idea but not this year weird there you are um okay uh anna thank you lost me um so really quickly i just to be really clear i mean yes i recognize that we're putting an incredible amount on the town manager's plate this plan is from 2018 this is not something that's like a new thing that's just popping up this year this has been around i think that what i would like to see whether i recognize that maybe creating an implementation plan for the entire plan put forward by tac may be a big ask however i'm wondering if we can build it into number five where we talk about maintaining a list of future road and sidewalk repairs incorporating feedback from the the pedestrian bike and bike and pedestrian plan um because ultimately the reason why this needs to be in there is that if we replace things as is we are not improving them for bikes and pedestrians we are just replacing as is if we are able to look at our sidewalk and road repairs and say all right what what impacts and and this is very possible that this is happening already but if we look at them and say all right this is how we could make this road more pedestrian friendly and and take that into account as we consider road repairs and sidewalk repairs that's i think that would be a great first step if we're not going to be able to kind of take the plan point by point can i suggest the following you hold that thought we put an and in front of five we put a period after regularly and we get rid of this and and do what you just suggested down below i mean if you're saying to do what i just suggested i was that acceptable i think i'm i want to show you you have your hand up yeah i was gonna suggest a different edit but i like honest better so i think that that is fine great mandy joe i liked honest and i would support honest so i think it's after road and sidewalk repairs comma um that incorporates the bike and pedestrian plan and that is available to the public and updated regularly yes thank you excellent for that collaboration i know we can get this done keeping moving we're going to accept all of those changes and we're going on to community engagement um that's a scribner error and then we have to look at six study and recommend initiatives to promote a more child and family friendly town culture including childcare recreation community building options with the goal of making the town more attractive to young families can i suggest that way up above where we talked about strategies to maintain our grow our increase our um year-round that this is part of that and we don't need to spell it out here this is getting too prescriptive i mean we when you say strategies these could all be part of those strategies and 10 other could be part of it just just that it's already been incorporated up above in housing affordability it's it's included in what was added to the last number of housing affordability that that the one that reads under housing affordability um what was it it was strategies or proposed strategies to stabilize the year-round population in town right alisha or pan well since i added it i think the the the thrust here is the sort of the friendly the child and friend family friendly and that is every family imaginable town culture but it's the it's the how do we make it how do we make it attractive to bringing let's just say kids into the community with their with their parents um so if if it comes out here then it needs to go in as it's it's the kinds of recreational opportunities it's the kind of play facilities it's that kind of thing not just you know stabilizing the year-round population so it needs to needs to be attractions to bring people like downtown i yeah yeah i guess i'm i'm having a problem with it's a big study and this is just you know like i'm not saying it's not a great idea but this is not a small thing and at what point are we just asking too much of the town manager alisha um thank you so i see i i see what you are saying lind the only reason i wouldn't think that this could move to the above initiative would be because it was underneath the housing and to me this is talking about things other than housing so like the same kind of idea but like because it was under housing that means it was referring to just housing initiatives and this is the other side of the coin um and i just want to offer and i i don't know if whoever wrote this this is what they were uh referring to but just for me personally the way that this speaks to me um and something that i've expressed to the town manager before is that um the ahra had a listening session that they held in person a couple of months ago and i went with my kiddos not knowing that they were going to be providing child care but they did provide child care and it was an amazing experience for me because i was able to be fully engaged in the meeting and somebody else was taking care of my children and i didn't and i went to the meeting thinking that i was going to have to be juggling being a mom and trying to be engaging with my community and all of these things and how extremely and profoundly that changed the way i was able to experience the event that i was attending and so even small things like that like providing child care for town sponsored activities and stuff like that um which i don't think is a tall ask but i don't know if this is if that's what this is meaning um but just an example of like a small a way in which this could be a smaller ask because i know that this could also imply bigger things what's the word we used above was it explore i think it was in the housing thing it said explore explore go down by the way that there's an extra and there in front of the three so just get rid of it while we're there but then we're going to go back down now go back down below and i want to see if we can use the word explore so that it's not as prescriptive so and explore initiatives explore explore ways to promote explore ways to promote okay dorthy all right i spent years as you know being a grandmother in this town going to every single possible activity for kids that there is and right now we have a wonderful recreation department but we were never able to use it except for swimming lessons because they do it's not full day and a mother who's working needs full daycare um and you know there's so many things that are not child friendly in this town so we've had to spend a lot of money on kids and um you know what the town does is great and i i know there's a lot of focus the playgrounds i'm so so excited about the work on the um the what we call the the waiting not the waiting pool of the jet spray park at the grove park and the and the playground at kendrick park but in terms of practical things that alicia was talking about which is childcare at a meeting there's a long way to go in services that this town could try to provide using i don't know a government funds or something that could provide more help to working parents okay i i think we don't want to get into how to make this happen but just let's look at it uh pam kathy could could we put a period after more child and family friendly culture periods because the reason i'm saying that is we have at least a joe calmerford we're talking we've been talking about getting pre-k we've been talking about extending hours of different things and this is a money issue so providing some childcare at meetings would be great so i'm just i just put a period because there may be some new money out there um to to do this this is not that we're not child and friendly and north hampton is or hadley is it's this is a problem when when you have two parents working that have children or single parents that have children if you want to go out and do something i'm going to suggest so i just wanted that period okay thank you i think that the period is a good idea because it's less prescriptive and at this point i think that's part of what's making some of this difficult is there any objection to that okay accept all of those changes okay we're on to the next one um it's simply to add the words developing and revising legislation pat you know that was a phrase i wanted added when i was trying to get some stuff removed i still think it's good phrase to have been there okay anna can we add the words as requested i'm sorry could we add the words as requested i think one of the reasons is developing and revising legislation is one of the core jobs of the council and and well we welcome the town managers input and and there have been many policies that have been written by staff including the town manager i think it's helpful for us to continue to devise our policy direction by adding the words as as requested um i i think it's a two-way street i think i i've seen our staff come to us with requests and i've seen us go to our staff with requests sure this leaves it open for that two-way exchange the um what was it article 14 that we've had for for three years or something was a staff initiative maybe then as appropriate i'm trying to think about how to not put the council's job inside the goal of the town manager i i'm trying to understand what it is you're trying to maintain or do is it well developing and revising legislation it says assistance support the council in developing and revising legislation is how it would read okay okay thank you all right accepted move on uh to increase positive relationships yep okay any questions there none i'm sorry but so why are we getting rid of developing and maintaining because we haven't always had relationships with some of these institutions we have some level of a relationship i mean even if they're not as robust as we'd like them to be we have something to start with alisha i think i might actually think it makes more sense to take out increase and leave maintain and develop that's right yeah i would are you just you know uh just to keep develop as to develop positive relationships and increase feels like a weird word to apply to a relationship i know i'm sorry molly how about how about to continue to develop positive relationships well that develop means increase if you continue to develop positive relationships it is an increase okay the town of amherst in conjunction with institutional growth and change i have the feeling that this came from you um jennifer no pam i have the feeling this next one came from you could it be explained we understand that you know as the case today umas grows umas grows its student population to keep its income stream and i think it i think it behooves us to be aware of the growth we we should be informed of the growth that is projected by the university so that we can somehow manage because so many of those the ramifications are the impacts to our neighborhoods so um part of the strategic partnerships with these universities with these institutions is that that we somehow are able to communicate to them what some of these impacts are to the community how many students do we house in the community and therefore you know how are we benefiting them by accommodating all the students what what does that mean in terms of financial aid to the town i can actually give two direct examples that have happened in the last couple of years at one point hampshire college was under serious threat of having to close that was going to have a main serious impact on our community and it was a serious change more recently you mass decided to seriously change its academic schedule and it has impacted us the question i have here is the extent to which we have control over any of that and so i i think it's a lovely idea but i don't think we have control over but i have no problem with it lisha um thank you so and i'm not sure if this is what you meant ham but when i was looking at this i think about institutional growth in terms of like uh student numbers particularly like if they're going to increase their their uh freshman undergraduate class or how many students are going to be accepting into college or changes like i know they've made decisions in the past um as to who can live off campus so for example if they were to change the requirement that all freshmen live on campus which is currently a requirement at you mass that then that would be something we'd be notified of because there would be an increase of students looking to live off campus possibly and that are agreements with the institution itself be reflective of those changes if and when they happen i it's a clarifying question sorry and i i have no problem with adding it i just want to be very clear we don't have any control over it well we don't have any control over the changes but we have control over the way in which we approach our partnership in response to the changes and i i'm not sure but i again i'm looking at ham to confirm that that's what you mean kathy my one comment on this is that that that phrase all works with you mass which is growing emers which is rich has not changed its student population or the ways of doing business much at all and i would really like to have a strategic tree so this feels limiting to me to add this here you know so it feels like it's limiting because it's it's not just about institutional growth and change it's about contribution to the town so that's i understand what you're trying to do so could we say after the town of amherst including with our with including including factors such as institutional growth and changes that removes the restriction all right we're accepting that we're moving on assist i'm sorry assist the council in initiating supporting state legislative efforts that can benefit the institutions and address financial i don't think there's any controversy here yes accept it any other objections question yeah why do they need to benefit the institutions if they're state legislative efforts i mean so for example a pilot force on the state to change the the reimbursement rate of state-owned land say and do it for based on development of the land instead of acreage might not actually benefit you mass so but we'd really want it because then we might actually get more money from the state pilot than hadley who who added that phrase because i not sure it helps us to add that phrase the blue i added it and it was because it was i mean we we write to our legislators supporting certain things and in some cases we write to support that you mass gets a particular grant or or you know we we add our voice to benefit them so it it doesn't have to be in there but i but i wanted to make sure that you know in some cases we actually could help them if they in fact could turn around help us it wasn't mean that they everything has to help them it's a reminder it's a reminder it could come out let's i think for the interest of time we're going to take it out moving on oh my god i think we're done all right i hope there's no further comment i'm not taking any further comment um to adopt pat pain you still have your hand up uh to adopt the 20 the 2023 town managers goals as amended on the january 9 2023 town council meeting it's been made and seconded no further comment we're moving on we're starting with pam rooney hi gathie shane yes andy steinberg hi jennifer dob yes alisha walker yes shally belmilne yes pat de angeles hi anna devlin goth here hi then gree spurs and i'm andy johannity hi okay anika lobes hi and michelle miller is absent and so is unanimous with no no you didn't ask me i'm sorry dorothy pam yes thank you it is unanimous with 12 people here in one person absent good luck paul paul will be sending you sympathy cards along with the managers things uh are there any midi and liaison reports c rc i guess i sort of have one okay um we're still working on residential rental bylaw but um what i want to report on tonight is that this coming thursday's c rc meeting will actually be a portion of it will be a committee of the whole and a special meeting of the finance committee and special meeting of the whole council um due to trying to be efficient with the use of town staff time um so that portion of the meeting is to have a discussion with kim yu our assessor our principal assessor and um shon mangana will be there about um assessment of residential properties residential rental properties things like that um i found out from andy that they were thinking about doing the same thing so we were able to work out that this meeting will be the joint one c rc's meeting starts at 4 30 but that conversation will begin at 5 30 so the first hour of the meeting will be c rc only meeting you you'll get a panelist link from athena probably tomorrow that will say 4 30 because c rc starting its meeting at 4 30 but the joint portion will begin at 5 30 okay thank you elementary school building committee kathy uh you pretty much gave my where we are this friday we will be discussing the new cost estimates and uh the other piece of discussing that is the designers come up with a list of design alternatives that would reduce the total cost okay finance committee andy um yeah we're uh meeting at 10 o'clock tomorrow um and i was hoping that we adjourned before midnight so i wouldn't have to say 10 o'clock later today and uh the topic is principally but not entirely on the proposed special legislation for the rental are for the real estate transfer fee and of course that's the first step and would come back to the council the next council meeting if uh recommended and the other topic that we expect is possible tomorrow is that if dpw is able to return to us with information about the effect on water and sewer rates from proposed changes and regulations great uh michelle's not here and now that you're done with goals i know g ol has a lot of other things anybody want to speak to that nika i think it's all been covered thank you uh jones library nika okay so uh the jones library building committee celebrated the news about senator mcgoverns one point one million dollar earmark um also there was an updated uh financial status report that showed the project is on track and there's currently a review of all gender bathrooms which there's a survey that the the public is encourage to take part in and that would be before january 15th so is a very quick survey and then there's also options that you can give opinion and you know just further express your concerns about this and so you can find that on the jones library both the jones library and the town's website great and sorry last that the next meeting will be a joint from the jlbc and the dot and the design subcommittees and that will be on january 19th at 4 30 p.m okay tsl okay so tsl we haven't met yet we'll be um so we will be deciding that next day for sure within the next 24 hours okay liaison reports um i thought we had a tsl meeting this thursday is that not i i'll confirm that tomorrow okay great don't take it off your calendar yet okay ana you have your hand up i was desperately trying to find the accurate poster and i can't i'm so sorry but um please keep an eye out the energy action climate energy ecac energy no i'm gonna get it energy and climate action committee ecac i know it just wasn't working um is hosting a series uh education series or sorry my video is an education series and they have their next one i believe is coming up soon so they've been doing some really great things with heat pumps and insulation focusing on on what folks can know and do around their homes apartments etc so i encourage folks to check that out and as soon as i get the updated poster i'll send it to y'all to distribute to your networks thank you thanks uh minutes were approved under consent town managers report happy to answer any questions if any counselors have you have a written report dorthy okay well um this is on sheltering the permanent shelter site so in in reading over this i realized that i wasn't sure what was happening um at the new building that the town i is the process of buying the the amherst veterans of foreign wars building um it's going to be both a shelter and supportive transitional housing so my question was about that shelter so right now we have craig's doors which is a wet shelter i'm kind of hoping that the shelter that would be in this new building would not be a wet shelter and i realized i don't know the answer so i'm asking you i think the intention it well we're many years away from this becoming a reality it will take a lot of time to develop the site uh if craig's doors is the vendor who would take on this would the responsible party for this they aren't their mission is a wet shelter so the town has always hosted a wet shelter but that's a decision down the road in terms of what we would put into the rfp first set for the development of the site okay i believe just because i mean i think that providing the wet shelter is a is a great necessary social service but i was hoping that for this building which had residents that it would be an additional shelter because you right now you have people housed in hotels and various things and i was hoping it would be more like that i believe the preferred phrasing is behavioral shelter just for for future reference i believe the phrasing that's preferred is behavioral shelter just for future reference not wet shelter no no no i just learned this i learned the word from our memos you know i know i'm i'm i'm sharing something i just learned from jerry wayse of craig's doors and and the other thing is paul is my understanding is correct that if craig's door just is selected that the other shelters would be moving to this location it wouldn't be an additional um an additional so many beds it would be a shift over is that correct i would think that that would be the capacity for craig's doors i can't comment on what their mission would be any other questions of the town manager i know he'll be more than willing to answer them at some hour than now um regarding town council comments in your um meeting packet tonight was the addendum requested by councillor miller that described the meetings with the police unless you have questions about that the media the records the report stands as reported dorthy this is on page seven when it's talking about the new business grants and going into details to say to apply for this grant you must have a preliminary business plan including concept budget management plan and a found space that would be suitable and i remember reading about things of this type in other places and i'm wondering are you providing workshops that show people how to do that um because that's a lot of really technical stuff and i was thinking if you're going to be really um inclusive that maybe such a workshop would be a good idea so i'm just wondering is that in the plans paul this is in the managers a workshop to do what again well for example what if i wanted to apply for one of these but i had never presented a preliminary business plan with a concept of budget and managerial plan i mean um at community college that's the kind of thing that they're often there are classes and workshops that show people how you do that and i'm wondering if instead of just announcing this that there would would the town be providing a workshop to help people put that together so they could apply yes so these are very short time frameworks for providing the grants these grants are designed for businesses that are up and running and that's the first group and the other one is for people who've already come up with the with plans and there's a lot of people who have ideas for a business they have a preliminary business plan we can help them develop those things one on one um but um i don't think we plan on doing workshops on how to do a business plan there's plenty of places out there who can provide that service in fact the chamber does offer those kinds of services as does a small business development center alisha um thank you so that answer is great and i'm happy with that but i also just wanted to add that they did do a similar thing in springfield where they offered the small business grants to businesses through the arpa funds and then they offered free arpa accelerator courses to help people fill out their applications and so that if that is something you could look into i would strongly urge it um if the other things that are available are already free then maybe just advocating or like making that making them aware of that then that would be awesome too that's a great idea okay any other comments on the town managers report any other counselor comments dorthy you have your hand up i just say the town managers report should be required reading i actually share it with my constituents so well did paul say at the last meeting it was a way for the public to access them i'm sorry jennifer i can't hear you sorry i heard your question so the question was is there a way for public to access the public uh town manager reports are put online every one of them for the last years is on the town manager page so they can go back and read them all the the day after i just want to send a link i guess to constituents that would be a way for them to yeah so i um um yeah you know i don't know if i put it i can put it on the town manager report how to find previous versions that would be a great idea yeah it's also in our packet which can be accessed through our page as well okay any other comments from counselors say none we are adjourned it is 11 53 good night everybody what's about america