 Good afternoon. Good evening everyone. I know a lot of people joining from different parts of the world I hope you enjoyed a today conference and we are nearly to end of the conference We just have one more with this a Q&A panel. So good to be here hosting Jim Evans here. Jim. We are so glad to have you Hello, hello, it's good to be here really good to be here. Yeah, a slight introduction about Jim Evans I've been knowing him for past 10 years now and he's one of the source of inspiration for me to get contributed to the Selenium project and Selenium project has seen many people as a cometer but Jim is one of the people who's been very consistent who's been sticking around for a long time and we were just chatting in the backstage and he just mentioned 2019 December he was actually turning 10 year anniversary in Selenium project so how cool is that you know it's not easy to have that sort of commitment and Jim we are so glad and happy to have such a committed person as part of the project and not just that Jim Evans is you know he's very committed to the Selenium project and he's one of the main persons behind driving the .NET client bindings and not just that he's also a project leadership committee member along with me, Marcus and Simon and Alexi and even more interesting he also extends his time and helps us you know scouting new places for conference I could easily remember the time that we spent in Japan Jim which is wonderful and it's very interesting if we think back about it with no further due I'll let you take a full stage and here we are Jim Evans on I'm Not Special thanks very much Manoj, thanks very much for those kind words and that kind introduction hello everyone I'm so glad to be here virtually if not in person let me let me go ahead and do my I do have a slide deck so let me go ahead and get that started right so I hope everyone has enjoyed the conference you know it's a bit of a new world for us doing this virtually instead of all being gathered together in person but it seems like it's been a pretty good experience for most everybody and but let me go ahead and start right up front and say you know something I'm not special there's nothing really special about me to paraphrase one of my favorite novels The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy if you've ever read that the description of one of the main characters Zepha Bebo Brox's I'm just this guy you know but here I am on a virtual stage talking all of you about a project that I care pretty deeply about and so you may need some convincing that I'm not that special so let me take a little time to share with you and tell a few stories along the way maybe help you convince you of that maybe hopefully you can see that you can have just as much of an impact on communities and projects that that I've had over the years now first of all let me introduce you to someone who is special because as a tradition whenever I give a talk there must be a cute cat picture and this is our new addition to our family here at home this is Macha she's the new kitten in the house this is the little one she's been our pandemic addition to the family she came to us during during this whole pandemic just a few months ago and I bring up the picture because she's little and curious and there's about a 50-50 shot that she will make an appearance at some point jumping up on the chair or something so that so that we can see the 50-50 chance we'll see what happens and now that I have your sympathy and now that I have wowed you with an overload of cuteness let's start with a little background about me and how I'm not special I mean just like everybody I had a childhood and I had an adolescence and yeah that's a photo of a very young gym but before I go too far into the introduction let me also mention and recognize that well I don't really see myself as exceptional I do have to recognize that I have a great deal of privilege that I've been afforded in my life just by the luck of having been born where I was and when I was and to the family I was born in being a white middle-class American male has certainly made my path easier than it would be for others but that doesn't really make me extraordinary or special I don't think I also have stable and well compensated employment which also gives me the time and and ability to contribute to external projects like selenium that doesn't really make me personally any more special than anyone else but it is it does bear repeating as we're talking about these matters that what applies to me may not necessarily apply to everyone and that everyone may have slightly different roads that may encounter some other roadblocks that I haven't had to do this having said all that I have been at this computer programming thing for a while you see now my father was a transportation planner and he's mostly retired now he's still with us but he's mostly retired now and as a quick aside his undergraduate degree if you don't know what transportation planning is it's a discipline of civil engineering but he would never let himself be called an engineer anytime somebody would try to call him an engineer he would say no I'm a planner because he's a stickler for accuracy when it comes to the terms one uses but in his line of work he relied very heavily on computers to model traffic flows vehicular flows pedestrian traffic flows and so on so I've always been exposed to computers as a concept in one form or another even from a very very early age and he would even occasionally bring me along with him to the data processing center to run his models because of course at the time back in those days we didn't have personal computers all we had was mainframe computers and you had to go and rent time on the mainframe and so he would go down to a data processing center with his and run his his models on the computers there that he'd rented time on during that time I wrote my very first program in Fortran no less on punch cards when I wasn't too much older than when that photo was taken actually and that photo was taken over 40 years ago so um but the you know it was a very rudimentary program all it did was average a set of numbers but the important thing was I could do the calculation manually myself and see that the output from the program was the same as I calculated it for myself manually and and wow it was it was amazing and I can't tell you how many years I held on to that deck of punch cards that had the program on it and that little green bar printout from the first time that it ran the 11 by 17 sheets of green bar paper as a memento I held on to those for years just because it seemed to me like pretty cool but again as a result because of my father's work we were pretty early adopters of PCs in our home and he managed to get his hands on a radio shack TRS 80 he borrowed it from a colleague I think and we had it for a few months in our house and then later on that inspired us to buy our first home PC which was an apple 2 and so I've been involved with the PC industry as both a user and an enthusiast almost since it's very beginning if you've never seen the 1996 documentary series triumph of the nerds which ran on the US public broadcasting service in 96 I would seek it out it's a pretty good it's a little cutesy but it's a pretty good documentary series about the early days of the computer industry the PC industry and chronicling its rise to to greatness and the very first code I got paid to work on was something I did for my dad in about 81 1981 or 82 he wanted me he wanted a particular report formatted a specific way and so I had to take the data from the output of his models and get it formatted a certain way for printing and so then he paid me to do that it was the first code I got paid to write so but outside of that my childhood my adolescence all that was entirely unremarkable it's just a typical 1970s and 80s American suburban life with my parents and my family and my parents and my sister and our dog you know I went to primary school I went to high school and then I went to university now in the interest of full disclosure I did drop out of high school and I wasn't that greatest student in university but I did get my degree barely in industrial and systems engineering I don't have a computer science degree it's an industrial and systems engineering and a fun fact my grade point average at university most people don't know this was a 2.3 on a 4.0 scale so for those of you keeping score at home that means I had about a C average at university so you know how some folks graduate from university they graduate cum laude well as my Mr. Acree my high school physics teacher used to say I graduated oh lordy how come but I did graduate from from Georgia Tech go jackets in 1991 and I've been in the software industry ever since personally my my personal life has likewise mostly been fairly unremarkable I got married once and then I got divorced and then I got remarried this time with kids I suppose that's one special thing about me that over the last 15 years I've studied under an expert in interpersonal relationships and communication and by studied under I mean having been married to Dr. Patty Evans is my wife and she's both an inspiration to me and she's helped me learn an awful lot about what makes people tick even those of us here in the software industry but talking about that interpersonal relationship and the interpersonal way we interact with one another that leads me to kind of one of the challenges and problems that we have as I see it in our industry see in our industry we tend to revere the inventor the visionary the singular mind that comes up with the big idea and this is true even for open source projects and we put those people up on pedestals we worship them as heroes we say oh I really want to be like them and everybody who is involved with in software they they that they want to be the person that invented the thing the very few people want you know strive off to be the person who contributed to the thing and made it someone better I always want to be the person who invented the thing and we do this in general and of course there are exceptions but we do this in general regardless of whether the inventor in question is skilled at personal interaction like say you know Van Rossum of python fame or even our very own my very good friend Simon Stewart who is very skilled at personal interaction and very skilled at making people feel welcome or whether they're less so like say Linus Torvalds who you know who by his own description is an unpleasant person and this problem is compounded somewhat in the open source space by the emergence of what I like to call public source projects and these are projects that are ostensibly open source they're hosted the source code is hosted in a public repository it's able to see it but the actual access to the source code and ability to make changes is fairly limited to a corporate entity usually and that's true for a lot of the projects that we are commonly used to using these days even in our software testing space that's true and in those cases it can oftentimes be nearly impossible to influence or to make meaningful contributions to those projects unless you're an employee of the controlling entity so the question then is how is anyone supposed to make contributions to an open source project what are the ways that you can make contributions when you're not part of the inner circle of that project and more importantly how do you overcome that initial barrier now to this day I don't feel like I personally am particularly talented or innovative as a software developer but I've just I've just found some ways to make those kinds of contributions and what I'd like to do over the next few minutes during our time together is to share a few stories that kind of demonstrate a few of the things that I've come to know to help make contributions and they are not necessarily limited to you have to write a bunch of code in order to be a contributor and you don't have to be incredibly special or super talented in order to use these techniques so let me start the first way to be able to contribute to any open source project is really to connect to it get involved show up decisions are made by those who show up the exact forum that any given project uses for how to get connected to it may be different depending on that project but there's almost always a way to connect with the project some really great ways to start connecting in a lot of projects are usually through a mailing list or an IRC or Slack channel in the selenium world for example most of the main contributors are regularly logged into the IRC channel either through an IRC client or through Slack almost every day and we try to be pretty accessible there it's very easy to just ping one of us either by name or to mention something that we would want to comment on when there's not a global pandemic happening conferences and meetups are a really good place for face-to-face interaction we'll see if that comes back to being a good way to do that in the future after the COVID-19 pandemic has subsided as hopefully it will issues in bug trackers are traditionally a pretty poor place to try to build community in a project but they can be a good place to contribute most projects that I've been aware of have a real challenge in managing their issues lists the list of open issues for any given project like being able to triage incoming issues and being able to spend the time to reproduce reported issues is an incredibly valuable contribution even if you're not actually fixing the issues just being able to set up an environment that reproduces the issue is a monumental contribution and be able to confirm that yes the issue is reproducible and the issue can be reproduced and this is particularly so in a project like selenium which gets a fairly high volume of issue reports if you want to help pick a random issue in the issue tracker and try to reproduce it in your local environment and report back to the issue what your what your findings were so just code itself is not the only place to contribute I mentioned conferences and meetups being a good place to face for face-to-face interactions but they're also events that require a ton of hours by real people to organize and put on and if you can lend a few hours to volunteer for an upcoming meetup or an upcoming conference that's a huge contribution to a project in its community so volunteering of your time even just for organizational purposes is a great thing there are lots of open source contributors that are decent coders but who are absolute rubbish at documentation I know because I'm one of them writing clear and concise documentation that's understandable by both beginners and more advanced users of a project is a really daunting task and very few projects get it right documentation is a great way to contribute to a project and one that will almost always be appreciated by the maintainers of the project so that's another opportunity a way to connect with the project and get involved when you reach out and start to connect for the project that initial attempt to connect can also give you a great deal of information about whether you even want to contribute to that project or not let me tell you a little story about the first time I tried to get connected with an open source project I was leading the test automation effort for a company that I worked for and this company's product was a help desk application so if you were in a company with a large IT department that had a dedicated team of support technicians those technicians could track their work and what open cases they had to work on what they'd done to resolve those and so on now this was the late 1990s so the cloud as we know it today wasn't really a thing at that time client server architecture was still very much the state of the art and my team had successfully automated a large part of the tests for the desktop client application of the product that that that our company put out and since this was a .NET application we used C sharp for the test automation and we we did a pretty good job with that with our handwritten homegrown testing framework we didn't buy any commercial tools off the shelf but the desktop app turned out wasn't the only way that users could use that product it also had a little used web portal that was available and when when our product team decided to enhance and start emphasizing that web portal as they started to notice that the web was going to be more a more of a thing um we needed as the test team we needed a way to create automated tests for that part of the product as well and we started looking around for things we could use now being a small company it was a very small company we had no budget for tools so right then that sort of let out commercial tools we weren't going to be using commercial tools we had to look for something that had no upfront license cost so that meant open source and we did look at selenium at the time but uh at the time all selenium had was selenium rc and we rejected that as a solution for both technical and aesthetic reasons um the technical reason was that rc was javascript execution in a frame set and that architecture was not something we thought was appropriate and the aesthetic reason was the single object with 150 methods on it as its api was really unappealing to us but we came across this library called water w atir which is web application testing in ruby and it looked like an api that we'd love to use the problem was we were at dot net shop so no one in the company knew anything about ruby as a programming language so i connected with the water project or tried to on its user mailing list to ask some basic questions about water and unfortunately to my dismay some of those questions kind of showed my ignorance about ruby as a language that i wasn't really a ruby user but the responses from the project were essentially well you need to go learn ruby and then come back once you've learned ruby and then you can ask questions about water so that was distinctly unhelpful so we kept looking we were so happy with the api that we found a dot net port of the water api that we went on to use it was called what in w atin web application testing in dot net and we were pretty successful in using that uh until we needed to do cross browser testing because it supported i e very well but did not support other browsers all that well but by the time we got around to doing that yari bakin had done a ton of work with the water web driver module which is the water api being driven by uh the web driver as it's back in to drive the browser which is the current architecture of water today uses the selenium ruby bindings to actually drive the browser so i figured we could do the same thing with w atin to get cross browser testing working using it using the dot net language binding of web driver problem was that the dot net bindings were very incomplete at the time they hadn't been completed uh so this time i tried to connect with a project the what with a web driver project at the time uh via irc to see if the dot net bindings were going to be completed or if they were going to abandon or what the what you know what the deal was and instead of being rebuffed i was welcomed eagerly and folks were saying hey uh the dot net bindings we're looking for somebody to help complete him don't you want to be the one to do it jim and i said well okay sure i guess i can take some time to try to do that uh but it was that connection that attempt to connect which is which anyone can do uh that that led to the development of the dot net bindings in c sharp that you that we are still currently using today now that effort of developing those dot net bindings kind of required a lot of back and forth between me and other members of the project simon and others which kind of leads me to my next point about ways you can help contribute to a project the simple act of communicating with those involved with the project is is is a good way to contribute to the project and let me take a moment to what i mean to clarify what i mean by communicate i don't mean using an attacking tone because that's almost always counterproductive uh when you say what you're doing is horrible that that's that's not a good way to do it um that's counterproductive and as a corollary to that when you do say something like that and someone calls you out on that as as as being an attacking tone and then you respond by saying no i'm attacking the work not the person so you shouldn't take it so seriously well that's just as counterproductive if not more so but the reason the communication is so important is because at the root of every open source project behind every line of code that you see in browsing the source code or that you use in your in using the product in the project there is a person or people attached to it that wrote that code during my time working on the selenium project and i've i've like like when i said i've been working on this project for 10 years uh more than 10 years uh i've been called incompetent and i've been called stupid uh i've been told my work is and here's a direct quote and it's it's offensive but i'm gonna it's a direct quote so i'm gonna apologize for the language but i'm gonna tell you they said that the work i've done on the project is shitty um see open communication requires that both parties in the communication approach in good faith and if you don't have that it's not a contribution it's a one-way scolding let me tell you another quick story about how a successful communication led to a direct contribution to an open source project in this case uh the selenium project and i've told this story before but it bears repeating because i know not everybody's heard it after i've been working on the dotnet bindings for a while uh you know this is this was this would be after that i i was working on the selenium project and while i did that for the first part i was doing it mostly in isolation i had my little C sharp part of the tree that i would work on and i didn't really look at or touch most of the other parts of the of the source tree uh and it's kind of just working on my own in my own little isolated silo uh occasionally i mean i was being social with with folks in the project but but not really collaborating technically um but by this time i had the bindings working in a cross browser way i had a test suite for working for the dotnet bindings that it was based off of the java test suite that that was it wasn't quite as extensive as that but at least partly did some of that and over time i started running those tests against different browsers and i noticed that when i ran them against internet explorer if i ran just a few tests everything would be fine if i ran you know just a single class or a couple of classes out of the test suite out of the test suite everything would be fine but if i tried to run the whole suite all of the tests from top to bottom uh it would start out okay everything would start running and it would go fine for a while but over time throughout the run the tests would start to get slower and slower and even slower until it looked like they were hanging um but uh you know i i i couldn't figure out what that was i assumed there was something i was doing incorrectly um and it turns out there was something i was doing differently than the other language bindings which is why they weren't seeing a problem but i was but um i couldn't figure out what the problem was and and then as now the i e driver was written in c plus plus and in addition to being c plus plus it was windows c plus plus and windows c plus plus that use the component object model or com um and at that time i hadn't really looked at c or c plus plus code like at all i did manage to figure out how to hook up a debugger at least to kind of step through and see what was happening in the driver and sure enough uh what looked like what's happening was that uh there was a buffer it was being allocated every time through a specific method uh there was this buffer being allocated and it was never released classic memory leak or i can recognize it is that now uh but at that time it was only a vague suspicion that that doesn't look exactly right well simon had written that c plus plus code that made up the i e driver at that time and he has his own stories to tell about how when he submitted it for a code review at google he was like how does this even compile but that's another story for another time um he and i hadn't really kind of chatted all that much at the time in terms of being technical i mean we've been a little social but but he was still to me the web driver guy you remember that whole thing he had he's the guy that invented it and so i was a little bit hesitant to bring up like technical things because you know simon's brilliant right he's a brilliant guy and i'm thinking clearly he's a very talented developer he's he's come up with this whole framework he's he's he's a very good guy he's very smart he's incredibly smart there's no way he overlooks something like this right it's got to be something on uh but i still couldn't figure out any other way so i thought i'd better ask i thought well i better ask so i i i screwed up my courage one day and i engaged with him in irc and i said so simon i says i'm looking at this file in the iu driver's source tree i'm looking at this file and right about here on this line here it looks like you're allocating a memory buffer but it doesn't look like you're freeing it up anywhere and i'm seeing this performance issue when i run my tests so i'm sure you already thought of this and i know i'm overlooking something but but it is probably something i'm doing wrong but but what do you think and thankfully simon being the approachable guy that he is he took a look he said you know what sure enough that looks like a that looks like a i'm not freeing that up let's let's see if i can fix that and that was great i was grateful to hear that because i really didn't know what the hell i was doing when it came to trying to build c plus plus code at that time well and behold we got a bug fixed we checked it in built the pre-built binary i put it into my dot net code and things were working great and i made a contribution to the part of the project i never thought to look at before simply because i was willing to communicate with somebody who knew something a little bit more about that part of a project than i did so just simply talking with people and communicating with people whether that's via email or irc or in person uh is is a great way to get contributions into a project even if you're not you know a super technical person or um and it doesn't require any special skills all it requires is just to be able to to to talk with someone what we're doing right now so once you've made contact and once you've you know you got to truly communicate with those who are contributing to it as well as yourself there is one more way that you can make contributions that doesn't require anything special and before i talk about it i'm going to pause i'm going to put up a portrait of a famous person so here we go one second this woman is an actress her name is emily proctor and this is one of her publicity shots and yes i did get permission from both her and her management team to use it here uh she if you've ever watched the tv show there's a tv show called csi miami uh which is a spin off of the csi franchise that ran from about 2002 to 2012 she played a character called callie du cane on that show and emily is my absolute favorite person in hollywood hands down no two ways about it she's my favorite person in hollywood i'll tell you why she's my favorite person in hollywood in just a minute because it it ties into my third point of how to contribute to an open source project and that's by being a good collaborator so just like a successful open source project if you've ever been on a movie set or a tv show set it's an incredibly collaborative place personally i've always been fascinated by film production it's it's it's uh you know seeing how things are are put together is just a fascinating process for me and there was a another tv show on the u.s that ran from 96 to 2006 99 to 2006 sorry 99 2006 it was called the west wing and if you've never seen it uh i would seek it out it's it's really amazing uh it's i'm a fan of the show for life it was set in a fictional u.s presidential administration and the president and his staff were the main characters i was a huge fan of the show then and i'm a huge fan of the show now i was incredibly lucky enough to have won a charity auction you know i i donated some money in a charity auction and the prize that i won was a visit to the set of the west wing and i got to go on the set i got to spend the day during this production of its second season i got to meet the crew i got to meet the cast i got to meet some of the writers uh and i got to watch them do some filming which was really cool and that was really where i learned a lot about film and tv production like a simple scene of two people talking requires a simultaneous coordination of dozens if not hundreds of people you've got hair and makeup you've got camera operators you've got the director and multiple assistant directors and uh sound people and uh lighting people and set in prop construction people all working together at the same time to try to pull this whole thing off and i got to spend some time with some of the cast members meeting them chatting with them and there's a lot of downtime for the main actors when uh when uh when you're filming any sort of scene because you have to do different camera setups for different a simple scene of two people talking may start with say the establishing shot of two people facing each other talking and then you'll cut to a close up of one of them saying something and then you maybe you'll talk you'll see an over-the-shoulder shot of the reaction to what they're saying and so on and those involve multiple camera setups and you have every time you have to cut you have to relight the whole thing redo everything and while they're doing all of that setup the actors don't have anything to do they just have to sit around away so i had a fair amount of time to chat with some of the crew with some of the uh the the cast that i met there uh martin sheen but emily was on the set one day she was one of the people who who was who she was one of the actors working and she was kind enough during her off times when she wasn't when she wasn't in the middle of filming uh she between takes she she was um she spent a fair amount of time chatting with me just saying hey who are you how are you enjoying things are you liking what you're seeing thanks for being a fan of the show you know i really appreciate you coming down what do you do for a living you know we really just kind of vibed and chatted and after she was done shooting for the day i mean she even insisted on posing with me for some photos on the set like there's a i've got a couple of pictures of me behind the resolute desk the the prop resolute desk with her handing me some pictures or some photos or some papers and stuff it was really she was really lovely and she's one of my favorite people so we're saying our goodbyes and i had said something like you know it was really great to have met you i'm really glad to have gotten the chance to come and see everything and you know thanks for taking the time to be so generous with it for me today and jesus so did did i get the chance to she asked me did i get the chance to see everything i wanted to did i get the chance to meet everybody and everything i said well i didn't get the chance to meet right you know i did get the chance to talk to martin for a little while but i didn't get the chance to to to meet rob lowe at all that's okay he was really busy he's you know i did get to see him work i got to see him act and perform and that was fantastic i didn't get the chance to actually speak with him but that's okay no worries i'm totally satisfied with what i got um and there was one more scene to be shot for the evening she was done for the day she wasn't in that's in that scene so she was going to go home um but they weren't going to shoot it on the soundstage they were shooting it uh it was it was set in uh the white house kitchen so they were going to actually film it at the warner brothers commissary because there's a warner brothers show and they were they so on the warner brothers studio lot is is a huge place and lots of distance between places so they have golf carts and shuttles and things that they that they used to get around between between buildings and things so they were going to get one for us for for me to take me over there so i could watch them do this last scene at the end of the evening um and i was standing outside the soundstage waiting for them and uh waiting for a shuttle and i hear my name being jam jam i hear that i'm like so i turn around and i look and i look around i see i see emily she's still in her hair and makeup you know her her character was wearing her hair up she had her tweed suit on the whole thing and still her makeup on wardrobe from what she was shooting and she's running around the side of the building i mean she's booking it right now you have to understand where these scenes were filmed was in was it stage 29 on the warner brothers lot which is a little over 17 000 square feet in area which is about 30 meters wide by 50 meters long the building it's a huge building right turns out she had run around the entire outside of the building looking for me um because she wanted to catch up to me she just to find me she catches up to me says she catches up to me says i'm so glad i found you you said you didn't get the chance to meet rob come on with me so she takes me around the building to the side where the cast trailers are the the main cast has trailers or like glorified rvs that they use for dressing rooms um to get away so they have a place to go and rest while they're waiting between cakes and such and uh she proceeds to knock on the door of one of them and and she gets she she's you know who is it and she says hey it's emily can you come out here for a second she gets rob low to come out and just and just for a few minutes just to say hi and meet me and and she was kind enough to take a photo of rob and me together and and you know he was very gracious with this time thanks for being a friend of the show blah blah blah you know but you know what really struck me and it stayed with me to this day and this is why emily is my favorite person in hollywood this woman she didn't know me from anybody right she was just a random guy that happened to show up at her place of work one day no other reason than just to hang out she's never going to see me again probably never going to hear from me again after that day but she went out of her way to make me feel included and wanted and special and that is why she is my favorite person in hollywood now i tell you that story because that's another great way that you can help contribute to open source projects every project that's out there has a community and you can be that person in the community that can be the welcoming voice to the new person that shows up in the chat room and says hey i'm new to the project i don't know how to do x help me with that or on the on the user facing mailing list that says hey i'm a question about why how how do i do why with saline you can be that special person that collaborates on a pull request by reviewing their code even if you're not going to be the one to merge it you can say hey i'm not sure this does what you think it does um for testing it out uh even if you're not the owner of the project you can do these things and make people feeling welcome and wanted and part of the project it seems like a small thing it really does seem like a small thing but as my wife patty always says people may forget what you say but they will never ever ever forget how you make them feel so if you connect and communicate and collaborate those are some great ways and those are the ways that i've tried to help make my way in the open source world and make contributions and ways that you can too without being it doesn't require any special skills to do it just being a a great person um i have had a trying time the last couple of years as part of the saline community for various reasons um and it's been a bit of a a long road for me personally i've struggled with am i really making a difference is is is the project has the project that limited its usefulness with respect to some of the competing projects that have come up over the last few years and some of the nastiness with which they have attacked the selenium community um and i was reminded just the other day that uh without my parts of the selenium community that a couple of people independently told me that without your work on selenium i wouldn't have had a career so um you know that made me feel really great because again i don't think i'm anybody special i'm just this guy you know i just do the thing and i would encourage you to just do the thing too thanks for listening everybody i i'm about out of time you've been an amazing amazing audience and you've been very generous with your time and attention and for that i thank you very much hey hey jim thank you very much for such a wonderful and such an inspiring story i would say i was just looking at the disk this tab i'm sure you would have some time to look at that as well uh it's very relatable and practical for each and every one of us and and you made us very special and thanks a lot jim for sharing that you're so glad to have you here all right well it's been my pleasure everybody uh hey stick around we're going to do a q and a with the selenium conference or the selenium uh uh committers so that'll be fun absolutely thanks jim thanks again and uh taking this opportunity to thank all the sponsors of selenium conference so slabs frozen stack best project hit gauge for popular stuff tools to you and dq thank you thanks very much