 So, welcome everyone. This is your Hyperledger in depth, an hour or so with this time, the Ethereum community. It's not really just with consensus or just with Accenture, it's actually a joint effort that I'm really excited to bring to you. Hyperledger in depth is a series that we launched with the beginning of this year to fight the Zoom fatigue. We really want you to participate, ask questions and really be active. We don't want to just broadcast information to you. If you wanted it broadcast, you always can listen to the recording. There's no need for actually live conversation. So today we will hear on how can the two communities Ethereum and Hyperledger community jointly work together for a greater good. And some of the speakers will be Peter, Dano and Rai. And a couple of housekeeping rules. First and foremost, as always, Hyperledger and Linux Foundation meetings always happen under the antitrust policy. You can scan the QR code in your top right and look at it. In general, it tells you not to share anything that could be considered an intellectual property while being on this call. If you're sharing something, assume that your competitors are listening in. This meeting is being recorded and actually also live streamed. So this is really exciting to me because I'm doing it the first time. The recording will be uploaded to the YouTube channel and to our website as soon as we finish this conversation. And slides will also be available for downloading. As I mentioned, this is not your regular webinar. We want you to participate. We want you to jump in. All of you should be able to unmute yourselves and join the conversation. If you feel like there is some kind of a very big discussion and you don't really want to jump in and break the conversation, raise your hand. And then we will know that you want to speak up. Also, if you are shy or your mic is off or anything else, you can always use the Q&A. I will be observing the Q&A box to bring up the questions. And finally, if you want to talk and comment and kind of have a side chat, use the chat window. That will be the most helpful thing to do. And with that, I'm handing over to my amazing team of professionals and looking forward to this webinar. Amazing. Thank you, Marta. You introduced that beautifully. Lots of hype. If you're okay with it, I'll go ahead and share my screen. And we can dive in. So Marta did a great job introducing this session. As she said, this is supposed to be highly collaborative, lots of polls, lots of conversations. We did not prepare a ton of content. So really, this should be all about you all answering questions and asking us questions and providing feedback and answering the polls. And that's going to kind of take the direction of the session. We don't have really prepared too many prepared slides, as I said. So again, talking with us, chatting with us, feedback, polls, it should be a lot of fun. Before we dive into anything, we'll introduce ourselves. So I'm Grace Hartley. I work at Consensus. I'm a Senior Business Operations Manager, particularly for the Consensus Quorum Group. I work a lot in our internal ops and partnerships, particularly within the Consensus Quorum team. The Consensus Quorum team is the one that originally submitted Hyperledger Basu to Hyperledger back in 2020, wow, 2019. Goodness. That's crazy. Before Consensus, I worked at KPMG. Also worth mentioning is that I do sit on the Technical Steering Committee within Hyperledger and do that with Dano. Dano, you want to go next? Sure. My name is Dano Farron. I am a Lead Protocol Engineer at Consensus. And I've been working on Hyperledger best basis the whole time I've been at Consensus back when it was called Pantheon. So I've been working at it for quite a while. And I also sit on the Technical Steering Committee for the Hyperledger project. Before I worked at Consensus, I spent some time in Google, some time in Oracle, during those times is when I got interested in blockchain and Bitcoin. And a simple interest in graphing the way new CXO flow eventually found its path all the way down to working on the core protocol of one of the clients. So it's kind of an interesting tale that one little thing I used to be a desktop developer using desktop movies. And now I know more about virtual trees than I care to admit. So that's, that's my strength here. Rai, you're up. Sure. I'm Rai, and I'm a Senior Protocol Engineer at Consensus Core. I'm working primarily like Dano on Hyperledger Basu. And before Consensus, I worked at Azure Machine Learning on a library that allowed you to do distributed machine learning evaluation and training on clusters. Perfect. And then we have Peter here, who is our lovely guest from Accenture and is going to round out our group. Peter, you want to introduce yourself? Yeah, sure. I actually started out. I was just muted. So I'm Peter from Accenture as a product architect. And my thing is that I'm one of the maintainers for Hyperledger Cactus. So I'm all about blockchain integration and interoperability. That's just my thing. Good. So now we've introduced ourselves. We'll go over our very light or kind of wherever this you the audience take us agenda. As Marta mentioned, this is a webinar on Ethereum. We have some of the leading Ethereum developers and experts here on this panel to kind of answer your questions, have, you know, provide their experience and also particularly put it in the Hyperledger context. Historically, when you talk about Hyperledger and you talk about Ethereum, you're talking about different things. But now we know that's not the case. And we're wanting to talk to you today about that and how, you know, actually Ethereum fits really well into the Hyperledger story and does a lot of it. And, you know, is already a major player in the community there. And hopefully we can answer your questions when it comes to that. So starting kind of from the top, we'll talk about what is Ethereum? We'll talk about what are Hyperledger's Ethereum based projects. And then we'll also talk about how to get involved in the projects at the end. And as I mentioned, questions, questions, questions are encouraged. But we will start with a poll to kind of get a sense of our audience and who we have here. And, you know, this will hopefully give us a sense of, you know, what you are excited about, you know, whether you guys are more advanced or just beginning, that way we can cater the conversation to you all. So you should see a poll pop up on your Zoom here. And please go ahead and answer it. I wish I had jeopardy music to like play in the background or we wait for everyone to answer. Is anyone a singer here? No, Tano just cringe. We'll get everyone just one more second. If you have an answer to it, please go ahead. All right. Martin, do we want to show the results if we think we have a group? I actually managed to be speaking on mute. We are almost down to everyone, four more people. So come on, guys. You have started off strong. Three more, three more seconds to do it. And hi, hi, Angel. Everyone, please feel free to introduce yourself. This is really informal. We will not kind of create any kind of restrictions here. Okay, we have almost everyone in. So I'm ending the poll and we'll be sharing. There is, it's interesting. Quite the mix, I guess. So that's good to know. So it seems like the majority or over half know some but aren't experts. And then the other half are either just getting started or either an expert. What do you guys think, Tano, Peter, Rai? Surprised there's so many people that said that they work in a theorem every day. I agree. That's exciting. Yeah, that is exciting. That is exciting. Yeah, we'll have to answer. You guys can ask definitely the more advanced questions. Cool. So maybe team us up with that kind of frame in mind. We'll start with a few kind of introductory questions. Getting the lay of the land. If you're new to Ethereum, you know some about Ethereum, hopefully we'll be able to kind of, yeah, give you a lay of the land is probably the best way to put it. And we'll ask each of you, panelists, these questions. So maybe starting at the top. For those of the group who don't know what Ethereum is, what is Ethereum? How does it work with other distributed ledgers or compare against them? We love kind of a high level intro. Rai, I think you're on point. Yeah. So first and foremost, Ethereum is a permissionless public smart contract platform with a Turing complete programming language. And what's interesting about it is that if you change a few bits and pieces, the consensus adds some permissioning and privacy, you can have a really cool enterprise private solution that uses the same Ethereum virtual machine for execution of these contracts. And you can read state from the public Ethereum mainnet. So that's the kind of shape of what Ethereum is in the public space and also what Ethereum is in the private enterprise space. And so Rai, would you say typically you hear DLTs are only in permission settings, but Ethereum is kind of different where you can do both. That's kind of the differentiator maybe? Yeah. Daniel, Peter, anything else to add there? Any other color to provide? Nothing for me. Yeah, nothing too much. I mean, you can add and change a consensus algorithm so you can make it as permissionless or as permissioned as you want. That's what we have with Bezu. But yeah, Ethereum started out principally as permissionless as its main underlying value. Cool. So then the second question we have here, hopefully starting to get into that Hyperledger lens, what are the Ethereum projects currently in Hyperledger? Peter, do you want to start? Maybe talk about Cactus? Technically, you could classify Cactus as an Ethereum project as well since we are aiming to support vanilla Ethereum and also the other types of clients such as Bezu. So I'll put down Cactus as one of those projects. So what is Cactus? Just giving everyone an overview of having some ground with each other. Cactus is about integrating blockchains, different distributed electric technologies, and we are aiming for it to be an enterprise-grade framework that hopefully simplifies a lot of the common tasks so that you don't have to read that every time you're building an application that has to deal with multiple different lectures sort of like an SDK or SDKs. So one big conversation and correct me if I'm wrong and others chime in is interoperability, of course, and how not just Ethereum projects but other DLTs can interoperate together. Cactus is kind of trying to solve one of those problems exactly which is pretty cool. And one of the key things that Hyperledger I think talks about quite a bit. Is that a fair assessment? That is 100% fair, yes. Okay, great. Okay, then let's maybe talk about Bezu and that project in particular. Dana, you want to take the lead there? Sure. So like there's different parts of the Ethereum ecosystem, Cactus is an integration tool that integrates the different blockchains. Bezu itself is what's called an Ethereum client. It's the actual node software that you run to connect to other nodes to form an Ethereum network. In Mainnet right now there's four major nodes, node programs that run and synchronize on the Ethereum Mainnet, having Bezu, Gath, NetherMind, and Open Ethereum. And Open Ethereum is what parity evolved into over the past about a year. So those are the four clients that run on Mainnet. And when it comes to private, those are required that, you know, you just today only want specific network and want specific configuration or a small set of test nets. Bezu has some custom extensions in addition to Mainnet compatibility that allow it to work on private networks from simple things like, you know, you can change that to a consensus algorithm called CLIC that does not rely on a group of work but still has issues with things like probabilistic finality to other consensus algorithms such as our version of IVFP that provides finality for your consensus. And some other very advanced permissioning where you can restrict which nodes can connect as an option you can turn on, which nodes can do smart contracts, which nodes can do calls, which nodes can validate. So Hyperledger Bezu enables you to run your network as free and as open or as tight and locked down as you would need to for your particular use case. You can start up your own private networks. You can join other people's networks. It's it's it's it can do what you need it to do. And then I think maybe I'll jump ahead just for a second because I think this might be helpful for the group. So when you're thinking about Hyperledger or asking talking about hyperledger projects, this is the greenhouse that we see in a lot of marketing materials. If you're a part of the community, what I like to do is call out the Hyperledger Ethereum based projects or projects that work in Ethereum. We've talked about cactus down at the bottom that's working interoperability with the other Hyperledger projects and Ethereum talked about Bezu, which is the Ethereum client, which sits in the distributed ledger bucket. We haven't talked about Borough yet. Dana, do you want to take a stab at just giving a quick overview of Borough? Sure. Borough is it's a go based Ethereum virtual machine. They don't have main net compatibility because they don't talk to main net proof of work protocols. They have their own system that's approved the state system kind of derived off of Tendermint. Borough came from the Tendermint project and the other half of the Tendermint project became the Cosmos team. And I think that's the library that fabric and saw tooth use when they provide EVM as their chain code support. So a quick question on Bezu then. When it says it's an Ethereum client, when I hear the word client, I think of something connecting to Ethereum, but not necessarily being an Ethereum node itself. Is that the right way to think about it? It is an Ethereum node. It is a node, okay. Yeah, it is a node. So that's maybe we should you put the word node in there, but yeah. Okay. No, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, client can be kind of confusing because it came out of client server architectures right in a peer to peer system. There are no servers this, but they just kept the client work. So yeah, everything is a client and they're all kind of equivalent in their responsibilities. Yeah. All right. Good. All right. Thanks. Yeah, that's a good question too because when we say client, yeah, we always, you know, mean something a little different than and I think that's very much an Ethereum lingo word, but really it's not, it doesn't really translate in other DLT conversations. So great question. Because in fabric, we would just call it a node. Right. Yeah. Okay. Right. Right. Okay. Got it. So a couple of other bits on this greenhouse that do work with Ethereum, but aren't like Ethereum focused. I've pointed out are also hyperledger caliper. We can test Ethereum nodes and basic nodes. There is a project in hyperledger labs, beef cluster that provides kind of like an application gateway type thing for the Ethereum nodes that clusters up. And I'm not too familiar with Adlon, but I thought I saw them do some demos where they would interact with Ethereum nodes like a geth node to do some of their secure chip, SEM, the particulars of the, of the secure chipping that is the point of their project. I can't, the names gets my tongue what they're using it for, but the hardware based integrations with some of it with the secure module like the SGX instruction set. Yeah. So hyperledger Avalon is an implementation of the Ethereum Enterprise Alliance standard on trusted execution environments or trusted elements as they call it. Yeah. Yeah. That's the word. I should update this. So I didn't circle that Avalon because that definitely fits within our bucket here. I think what's interesting is, and then my next question on the slide, which I think I remember is, you know, it's kind of interesting that, you know, a lot of the conversations are hyperledger versus Ethereum and you can see kind of Ethereum's definitely already in hyperledger and has kind of a very interesting perspective to bring. But I guess I'd love to hear maybe, Dan, if you can maybe start with answering the question, how does Ethereum fit into the hyperledger story? What would you say to someone who might be confused or just new, you know? Right. So first I would say, perhaps to back in say that this is kind of an interesting union between the old cypherpunk mentality that Bitcoin emerged from and the enterprise mentality that stuff like CRM comes from. Enterprise has a need for these control databases and cypherpunks have a need to be away from these control. And it'll seem like contradictory requirements on the surface. But when you get something like Ethereum together, both purposes can be served. You know, Ethereum has its decentralized, permissionless. At the same time, it provides a lot of the control and the security that you would need from a CRM type solution. Now by default, Ethereum doesn't have really good privacy solutions. So it's another thing to put on, like, you know, you can do a ZK smart, there's one thing you can do straight on mainnet today, or you could create your own private version of an Ethereum blockchain with some of the private consensus mechanisms. So to step back to the original question, the role of Ethereum in the hyperledger community is to sort of merge what sometimes appear to be contradictory needs of different members of the community and show that they can work together. So at the same time, we have, you know, all of these ledgers in the ledger category can be used all in private network, and they work really great in private network. That's there. They're primary, what they were built on a lot of these, but basically also shows that you can work in public networks and public openings. I hear Fabric has one that's open to the public as well. So it shows that, you know, what you might think about these DLTs being only locked behind corporate firewalls and only accessible with millions of dollars of, you know, support contracts and everything else. And, you know, as far as, you know, permission to get into these networks and members of consortiums, you can do that. You can also do it in the permissionless form. So the role of the Ethereum, the project in hyperledger is to provide these bridges and to let people go where they need to go with their business and to bring people in who ordinarily would not be in hyperledger all the same time helping everyone across the board. Yeah, I completely agree that I just want to add that on top of all that, you know, if we end up with silos, then mainstream adoption will likely not happen or will not happen as well as it should. So I feel like everyone in blockchain should somehow aim to work together and have some sort of interoperability because, you know, silos, financial or otherwise, you only have that's the traditional systems that were there before as well. And that's what some people who have invented newer technologies are trying to get away from. And also just in general, you know, it is written down in many places that hyperledger tries to be an inclusive community and therefore it should be really, really good to have Ethereum included in there as well, Ethereum based projects. For sure. And with, I mean, you know, all these different projects have been contributed and worked on now by so many different companies, you know, some of the leading companies in the world in the blockchain space, if not all of them, maybe arguably, you know, although that mind share I think only votes well, I think someone's going to come up mute sorry and ask a question. No, I just wanted to point out that Mark was asking or making a comment about the computational cost of Ethereum that is included by design. And I kind of got interested in how do all of those hyperledger projects deal with the gas and the cost of running Ethereum nodes? So I think only the EVM languages have the built in gas restriction of it. One of the novel features of putting the gas in is it puts a bound on uncontrolled execution. The sophomore year of computer science, everyone learns about the halting problem. You can't look at a program and figure out if it's going to terminate or not without actually running it. So Ethereum put into EVM a gas restriction and a gas limit when you run out of gas it terminates. And the big advantage we get there for hyperledger, not for hyperledger for Ethereum, is that you can run every single execution at all the times and be sure that it terminates in the same way, the same situation and a reasonable amount of time. So what other blockchains have done to get around this issue, particularly fabric, is they run kind of a form type situation with their chain code. They'll ask multiple nodes to try and run their chain codes. And you get the same result from enough of the nodes, then they accept that as the answer. And I don't know in particular as to how they deal with runaway chain codes and other sorts of ways where it fails, but you get three out of five, four out of five, nine out of 10 different nodes saying this is what the chain code results and they accept it as basically a quorum vote. So that's one way to get consensus is everyone agrees on the results. And I think that's the big way a lot of people go when they don't use gas, as they go to the enough people agree on the result and it's the truth. Hey, so related to that a little bit, but can you clarify here if Ethereum, clarify the difference with quorum versus Ethereum and are we talking about quorum here or are we talking about public Ethereum, just trying to understand how that comes together here. So go quorum. Go ahead, Grace. Yeah. No, it's a good question. So there's kind of different layers of Ethereum that's worth talking about. So there's Ethereum public chain that Rai was talking about where there are main clients that run there. One is Beisu, one is GeF for example. And then there's also the permission layer. So there's permission clients. So go quorum or quorum is only runs as a fork of GeF and only runs in permission settings rather than running on main net. So it's kind of a, I think the best way to say is yeah, the fork of GeF. What am I missing here? Probably the work that's going on with some of the stuff like QIBFT is going in in the future. That's Enterprise Ethereum Alliance is another group that's not Hyperledger that is getting some standards to work between these private Ethereum clients and also some have their own software and some work entirely on public networks with additional microservices put on beside it. But one of the exciting things coming out of there is working on a standardized BFT algorithm. So you can get Beisu nodes and quorum nodes working on the same. I mean, you can really do that with a click consensus algorithm, but a consensus algorithm with finality that you can have a plurality of clients on a private network. And when it comes to systemic risk, getting multiple client implementing a spec reduces one of the risks. I mean, that's the legendary theory of what they do on a space shuttle. They have brief control systems. Two are made by one vendor and one is made by another vendor from spec. And when they disagree, the humans have to intervene. This is probably worth taking a step back there. That was a good way to end it. I shouldn't jump in, but no, I think they're all Ethereum, right? So it's like when we say Ethereum, but and Beisu and go quorum are Ethereum clients, it just can do different things, right? So Beisu can run on main end permission chains, go quorum can only run on permission chains. Just to kind of clarify that, because I don't think I did a good job at the beginning. Does that help? Yeah, I think that helps. It's, you know, there's a lot of different pieces going on here. And what I see is, is, you know, kind of like the early, you know, it's like the early days of, of this type of technology. So there's all these different types of ways to do it. And probably eventually a lot of stuff is going to go away and get absorbed into other big, bigger projects that'll be kind of the umbrella of the whole thing. For sure. We'll see how that all goes. Let's do, I think next we have a poll, maybe to kind of pivot away, or at least dive into more kind of the project experience, what other questions people have. Marta, do you mind team up the poll for the group? This should be visible now. Yeah, it looks like two questions came up. Yeah, because, yeah, I kind of assumed that you wanted the two questions together. Sorry. Yeah, no, that's fine. So two questions. Yeah, have you tested or used the Ethereum projects in Hyperledger before? Two, what is maybe an objection for using Hyperledger as a Ethereum based projects? Or just using Ethereum generally? Probably a better way to phrase that question. And it'd be really awesome if you got the same participation that we had on that first poll. Yeah, well, let's see how it goes. We still have some people, come on. Marta, you didn't do the Jeopardy music this time. What happened? Oh, gosh, I'll pull it up for the last one. We still have participants. Yeah, waiting. I really love the conversation and I thank you so much, guys, for also running the conversation and chat. I think it's really productive and interesting. So great, great job in making this meeting really interesting and attractive. Oh, Todd, why are you not seeing the poll? So you can, you can vote in the chat or you can tell us. Have you tested or used Ethereum projects in Hyperledger like Besseboro or Cactus? And the answers are yes all the time. Nope. Or I've tested at least once before, but I'm going to start testing them more. I'm going to have to go with no. Okay. And question number two, what is an objective for you using Hyperledger's Ethereum based projects? Is it worrying about using a public blockchain, for instance, with the privacy and security issues? Is it a crypto, because it's a cryptocurrency, so you're worried about loss of funds, regulatory and tax concerns, or maybe lack of knowledge about them? Or there's no real blocker for you, just didn't get a chance or nothing, use it anyway. I work in the regulatory compliance space, so I would have to be the one about taxes. Right. So how do you see Ethereum from regulatory and compliance kind of a perspective? Well, I think there's going, there already has been a lot of efforts where regulatory bodies are forming sandboxes, and they actually want to talk to people in the blockchain world. I think that more of that has to kind of go mainstream. I'm a little dismayed by some of Janet Yellen's comments last week about cryptocurrency, and very concerned that it's primarily used for criminal activity. And I don't see it that way. And I'm hoping that we can make more efforts to comply with regulators, so people feel more comfortable using, especially, and again, in the risk and compliance space, because there's so many wonderful applications for it. Yeah, that makes total sense. I'm based out of the UK and actually over the change of the years, the year. So moving to 2021, the regulations changed completely, so now you can't trade on cryptocurrency derivatives, and it's so complicated. And I just don't understand it. Why would people do that? Like, there are so many opportunities. Well, when I bring it up, people's minds go right to the Silk Road, they go right to Mount Don, so we're trying to get past that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And we only use Bitcoin to, I don't know, pay ransoms or something. And while we're talking about it, Grace or Dano, there is a question from Shoaib about how does Ethereum or Gath integrate with the Hyperledger Aries or other self-sovereign identity networks? I wouldn't dare. I guess the short answer is that it doesn't integrate with it at this point. Yeah. So yeah, if there's integrations that work through this standard Ethereum, based on RPCs, it would integrate. But there's nothing specifically built into Bezu, and I'm not familiar enough with the Aries project to know if they're running it as a layer two and committing their dits to Ethereum or what that would look like. I know it's an outgrowth of the Indie project, so and I don't think there is too much integration between Indie and Ethereum. So, I mean, it's a great opportunity to do some integrations to get some Aries stuff working on there. I just, I've got so much random stuff going on with things like Ethereum too and working on my Bonsai tree project that I just haven't had time to look into that particular project. Yeah, I think it's a good, great point of how the integration happens and has to happen on both sides, right? It's both on the Bezu or Borosite and the Aries side. So I think we need to build some bridges and if any of you attendees or participants would like to join those efforts, absolutely, please, please help us building the bridges. I did share the results. Very interestingly, 63% says that they've never used Ethereum. Oh, I guess the question was a little... That's not the way I read the question. Yeah, that's not, I don't know, that's not really the question. The question is if they've used the Ethereum projects in Hyperledger before. So, Bezu, Borough, Cactus, I should add Avalon to it. I apologize for that poor Avalon. And I think this is perfect because we're going to tee up ourselves in a few minutes here on how to you can get started and hopefully set up your own private network or run your own node, all those things and test cactus, all those things. So hopefully maybe a few of you on the line after this conversation will maybe take that up and try them out yourselves. The second question is interesting. So similarly, what is an objection for using Hyperledger's Ethereum-based projects? Nobody really has a blocker at 38%, which is again very exciting, which means that you all have lots of free time and we can show you how to contribute in your good first issues in a few minutes. What would you say? So we kind of talked about cryptocurrency and maybe like the regulatory concerns around Ethereum. We haven't addressed the first part about, you know, I worry about using a public blockchain for my solution, privacy security. What would you say to that? Maybe Ry, do you want to start? Yeah, I actually was going to say something. Yeah. Well, the first thing that came to mind is interestingly with advances in cryptography, you can do private things in public. You can encrypt things so that only the parties that you want to, you know, be privy to them can see that. You can offload computations to someone to do that you can prove that we're done correctly so that the computations aren't done out in the open. So increasingly this is becoming kind of a false dichotomy. The results just disappear. Yeah, it looks like they were taken down. Does anyone want to jump? Let me relaunch them, sorry. No, it's okay. So I maybe ask someone, you know, if you've used the project before or any of these projects are used Ethereum before, what has your experience been? You know, I'd love to hear kind of good, bad, otherwise, and that would be interesting for the group to hear. Especially the bad. Hopefully all good. No, definitely the bad is always helpful too. I can speak to one that we actually had worked on within Ethereum. And one thing about public blockchains is, you know, what they do, they do extremely well. And that's primarily the transparency that anything on there can is perceived as being discoverable by every other person that's on the network. And that has generated a lot of concern with CIOs and CTOs and CISOs because I don't want really to reveal anything about what I'm doing that's going to be visible to anybody that could be a competitor or a rival or anyone that just, you know, probably wants to come in and just really disrupt everything. And that's really been, they want at least that ability to kind of, you know, sit back and, you know, kind of cloak what they're actually doing, but still have all the other benefits of a public blockchain. And, you know, for a long time, you know, if you were going to work primarily within Ethereum, you had to basically kind of, you know, take that type of risk that what you were doing was going to be visible to everyone. And, you know, some people would say that keeps everyone honest and that keeps everyone working together, but it also generates that awareness. And that's the awareness of everyone else knowing what you're doing makes a lot of people nervous. And it's been my experience that once that mind closes, you're not going to get it back open again. So generally, with a lot of the advances of cryptography, and now that we have a lot more of the enhancements that Ethereum is capable of, you're starting to, you know, get some more people interested to say, hey, you know what, maybe we'll take a look at this again. Because they're running into, you know, problems with scalability and last mile when it comes to their private permissioned blockchain projects. Yeah. Mark, thanks for sharing that. That's like, that's great feedback. I think that's definitely been something I think me, all of us panelists have heard one or two times before, and it's a theme, but I think you're right that it'll be interesting kind of to see as performance improvements are made, maybe ETH2. You know, I think that story might change with Ethereum. And I can share with you a practical thing that we actually worked on back in 2017 was within healthcare provider credentialing. Credentialing is, it's a persistent problem. It's very costly and it very frictioned and it takes a long time. And the idea starting off is that we were going to take these credentials and we were going to tokenize them and put them on the Ethereum mainnet. And so that they could be exchanged between, you know, payers and providers so that they could, you know, onboard onto their networks. But at the same time, the payers then had up-to-date information so that they could maintain complete and current provider directories. And these are problems that have existed for a long time. But the idea of actually putting a digitized credential, you know, with all of the identifying information directly on a public blockchain really created a lot of concern. And the project went nowhere. You know, you look like you're thinking. The project went nowhere. So it's, you know, really a lot of the latest, latest advancements within Ethereum as far as, you know, with off-chain and with Merkle trees were born out of really that need that you have to have some type of masking or at least some type of, you know, they don't want that much awareness that's generated by the transparency. That's what I got. Right. Right. And I think you're right. There's a lot of the new things coming out that are going to be able to put like a hash commitment and you'll be able to bring a proof out and prove it against the Ethereum chain. That's what a lot of the layer two stuff is doing like baseline. And it's even getting deep into the protocol. There's something in Ethereum called witnesses where you don't have to have the entire blockchain to prove a particular block to the thing. You get a cryptographic proof of it. And in theory, there's a database, but you don't have to have the database to prove that it worked. So I think there's a great bright future for a lot of that credentialing going on through these layer two technologies. Another thing that I commonly ran into is, all right, if I'm going to basically, you know, put forth a Ethereum based solution, do I have to set up and maintain or set up download and maintain a node? And I'm like, yeah. And that's another when it's going to outstrip so much of the resources within a lot of CIOs have within the current IT architecture. For sure. No, I think that's great feedback. I think it's interesting. Yeah, I think Dano made a great point about kind of the layer two options and different performance or privacy improvements. If it's privacy groups, private channels, side chains, I think that's kind of definitely resonates with a lot of work that we do at least. I want to take a step back, if that's okay. And then I'm going to open it up for lots of questions. I've seen a couple of questions come in from the Q&A box and to the panelists directly through the chat, basically trying to clarify, you know, I haven't, one person is saying, you know, I haven't used Hyperledger with Ethereum, but I've worked with Ethereum on a public network and I've experienced a great deal of latency. Is anyone concerned about that? And then the other question, so before we get to the latency question, I'm going to pause on that because we do have a good answer for that. The other question is going to be, is around Basu being an Ethereum client or does it work with other Hyperledger networks or is it distributed ledger? Maybe taking just like one step back then I'll answer the question about latency. I think, so when you're thinking about Hyperledger, I think there's some confusion around, for when we say Hyperledger, are we only talking about Hyperledger Fabric? Are we talking about Hyperledger Sawtooth? And in fact, Hyperledger is a greenhouse of many projects. So you can see kind of, this is the greenhouse we showed a little earlier, we didn't really explain it, just said, you know, here are the Ethereum projects. So to clarify, so in the top layer here, there are a bunch of different distributed ledger technology projects within Hyperledger. One is Hyperledger Basu, which is an Ethereum client. So it's just a type of distributed ledger. Another type of DLT is Fabric, another one is Sawtooth, and the other ones listed here. So when we're talking about Hyperledger, we're actually talking about kind of this greenhouse of all these different blockchain projects, which is pretty cool. It's not just one or the other. So just wanted to take a step back because that wasn't clear from what we were talking about earlier. The second question is around latency when using the Ethereum public network. And is anyone concerned with that, is how the person worded it, but also how do we address that in different solutions? Who would like to lead that? Dan O'Ribe, what do you think? Yes, so just clarification, latency is kind of the time to when you make a transaction. So who has this question? Ron Johnson, I think? Yeah, so Ron, what you mean by latency is it, you know, the time between you make a transaction and it's included in the blockchain. And you can, yes. Yes, so right now the reason for that latency is because you want some time for a block to propagate through the network. And so there's a parameter in the protocol that kind of sets how much time this block is intended to take and kind of adjusts parameters so that it continues to take that long so that you don't have all of these splintering forks in the blockchain. And so as far as I can tell, maybe Dan O'Ribe, you can correct me, but even for the future of Ethereum, ETH2 proof of stake, there's going to be some parameter which is going to have to introduce some latency in order to deal with like the network latency of propagating information around the world and two nodes that will participate in the consensus process. Yeah, so yeah, the latency is kind of just, it just kind of comes bundled in with this kind of distributed consensus forming. And that's part of the question of whether you're going to do a public network or a private network. In a private, what makes it so crowded in the public network is everyone's using it for their own purposes and you need to compete for space and you pay with that for Ether. So that's how they incentivize people to run public nodes is there is an act of createable token that has value in only one chain, which is the Ether. People created it in exchanges and miners mine it and that's how the economics there in a consortium network, whoever is participating in it is going to agree on who runs the nodes and make sure that they run up themselves. So the incentives there are different in a private versus a public network. So on a private network, you can get much better latency times. You can take your block time down a few seconds. You can put a hundred million gas in each block if you want. You can get hundreds of TPS per second on an Ethereum network with Ethereum transactions if that's what your requirements are. And if you added layer two technologies, you can get some particularly well architect solutions can get up to 10,000 of TPS per second on layer two if you do the layer two architecture correctly. So the latency is all about the design. You can have everything affordable latency to awesome latency, depending upon what incentives you want to provide. And they all come with tradeoffs of each level. Also, there'll be, you know, types of interactions when they're within institutions that will be, you know, centralized like they are now and very fast. Like if I send a transaction on Venmo to someone else on Venmo, right, that will be instantaneous because they can do that centralized. Even in this kind of blockchain label world, you'll still have, you know, some of these silos, but then they use that settlement layer for, you know, cross institutional interactions and, you know, across trust boundaries. And just to pile on the latency topic, my personal opinion is that they are technologists and they usually work on improving stuff. So I fully expect that to get better over time. So if you really want to develop something that is forward-looking and then you kind of have to make assumptions about the future and make some bets. And one bet I would make is that latency is going to go down. I like that, but Peter, I'm going to take it too. So we only have a few minutes left. So any questions you have, drop them in the chat. We'll probably take a few and then if we need to stay on, we'll answer them at the end. The first question that we have here is, is Burrow actively developed? There are commits in its GitHub page, but its Wikipedia says that it's an incubation status with the roadmap from 2019. I do know it's currently being actively developed and the team working on it, but I don't know the latest updates at this point. Yeah, it's my hobby horse. Incubating active is about community size and project size. It doesn't mean whether or not it's production ready. And every time they have that discussion, there are people with government say, well, I have Burrow in production. It's used in fabric nodes to run their paint code. So yeah, there's not much fancy stuff going in. It's pretty functional in it. So I think that's why it's a little slower in the commit speed than some of the other projects. Yep. I know, yes. We like to clarify that because yeah, just because it's an incubation status does not mean it can't be in production. There's one thing you take away from that. We'll be very excited if that's it. There are two more questions around contributing, which is really teaming up just beautifully. So it talks about how, how do you get started? One person asked about Basu specifically. So we'll jump, we're not going to skip the use cases slide. Sorry. And we're going to start, we're going to jump ahead to the contribution section. And then after this, we'll have one final poll for everyone. And then we'll take any final questions at the end. So, Dano, how can you get started with Basu? So if you go to the Hyperledger Basu GitHub, we have some good first issues. We still have some of them. They come and go. Contributing to a blockchain client can be intimidating. You're not going to be creating new data storage formats on your first commit. So we recognize that. So we picked up some things that we could fix, stuff that I could fix in an hour and afternoon. And we leave those aside as good first issues. One's that touch various parts of it and offer it up to the community for them to take their hand in contributing there. But also, we'll take contributions at all levels of experience. If you're a deeply experienced Ethereum developer, we want to hear from you as well. There's a couple of community places you can go on. We have a chat room at chat.hyperledger.org. We actually had two. One for Basu is for general discussion. And the one of Basu-contributors, we tend to limit to things about things going on with the source code. When we're cutting a release, we'll say, hey, please don't commit stuff. When I need to have a review on a PR, sometimes I'll put a request out there. If there's questions about what we're going to do with, are we going to switch the tabs into the spaces? We're not. But that's a discussion we would have there. So that's also on chat. We also have an email list which has about the same level of email engagement as other Ethereum projects. Actually, we're doing a bit better. We get about one email a month. The Ethereum community just doesn't like email. It's weird. But another thing is you can run and execute Basu. There's a quick start to get you up and running. If you're going to sync to a public network, I would recommend one of the smaller ones, like Gorely, that you can accomplish in a reasonable amount of time. Mainnet is very heavily used. It takes a while and good, decent hardware to synchronize. But a network like Gorely synchronizes in less than an hour. And there's one called Ethereum Classic. We support one of their tests that's called Mortar. That one will sync really quick. There's also hardly anything going on because of why it syncs so quick. But if you just want to play with that, it's pretty easy to get Tet and an Ether on some of those smaller ones. It's not too hard to get the Ether to do your stuff. And you can always start up your own private network to just test run your own contracts. You can, you will click node was as few as one validator. So I'm here to send you a direct message. No. Go ahead, Ray. And with external contributions, we try to have a quick turn around time so that the experience is good for you as a contributor. You get to see where we're valuing the contribution and helping you along. Yeah. And so definitely chat at hyperledger.org is a great place to start for all hyperledger projects. And specific questions on mentoring or volunteering opportunities or internships and all that, that's a good place to get started. And, you know, engage. Yeah, Dan, you're raising your one thing I forgot to mention about hyperledger. All the projects are Apache to license. So that's a big opening for a lot of corporate development. There's a lot of corporations that won't allow customization of code. And of the theorem clients that we mentioned today, go quorum, get another mind and open Ethereum, those are all GPL. So basically unique in being Apache licensed along with cactus. Yeah, that's a good point. Peter, how can you get started with cactus? Yeah, so I won't bore everyone with repeating everything we're bringing that Dan, who just said about basically, I'll just say take all that and replace the good basic with cactus because it's all true for us as well. And then the one thing that I wanted to highlight is that cactus is not yet production ready. So just wanted to make sure that everybody's aware of that. But at the same time, yes, really, we are trying to be as welcoming as possible as well. So also happy to have direct messages about any questions anyone has. Amazing. With that, I know we're just out of time. We have one final poll that we're going to ask you all to respond. So this is just a first session on Ethereum in the hyperledger community. We'd love to hear more about what you want to see next time. Maybe if you liked the session, if you didn't, all feedback is welcome. We just want to make sure this is interesting for you all. So if you don't mind answering this final poll, that'll help us kind of plan it for, you know, if a next Ethereum session would interest you all. And as you're answering your questions, you're welcome to speak up and ask any final questions as well. I wish I could select at least two of them. I know, yeah, it's two, but I should, yeah, I kind of made everyone decide, you know, I didn't have an option of no Ethereum session. So, if anyone has better ideas, and we would welcome any other ideas, please do email me, Grace, I'll pop my email into the chat. Please feel free to communicate with us. We really want to make this as useful to you as possible. If it's, you know, hardcore hands-on coding, if it's high-level business, it doesn't matter. We just want to make sure that we are bringing value to you. And again, thank you, Grace, and the whole team for an amazing session. I really appreciate it. I thought that was really interesting. Currently, we actually, it seems like we'll have to do all four sessions because it's literally 25% each. So we might need more than one, which is great. And we hope that you can just share the news with your friends and colleagues, and hopefully other people will join as well. Yeah, so I'm just popping in my email into the chat box. Otherwise, you will find us on LinkedIn and Signals and Chats and everything else. So please feel free to reach out. Yeah, we have almost, almost even results. Yep. I wasn't expecting that, but yeah, this is the first of five. This is the first of five. Well, thank you, everyone. Just a quick recap of what we will be offering. This is part of a series that we do, and we do have more coming up. Two sessions that are definitely happening are on February 3rd with Intellect EU on deployment Hyperlegio Fabric Networks. And then everyone will be talking about their SSI and COVID. Again, it was a dialogue session. It is not a broadcast session. And definitely as soon as we talk or get back together and talk about the Ethereum sessions, we will plan some and you can find everything on hyperlegio.org slash events. And please do get involved. Here are some links, some QR codes, you can scan them, you can publish them. And thank you for watching. Thank you for dialing in and I'll talk to you soon. Stay safe. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.