 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Prof. Ajaz Ahmad and we are going to discuss the recent summit that took place in Helsinki between President Trump and President Putin. Ajaz, the summit has taken place in rather odd circumstances where the United States agencies have filed cases against 12 Russian intelligence officials and this is the backdrop of Russia supposedly helping Trump win the elections within which this summit has taken place. Do you think that has adversely affected the summit? Respond directly to the question of the 12 Russian diplomats and the timing is very interesting. Three days before Helsinki they do that. But the master stroke, Putin's master stroke during the press conference came exactly on that. He said there is a treaty between the United States and us for handling such matters. So Mr. Mueller can just send an official request to us and they can come in. Even a representative of Mr. Mueller can sit on that and question and call people and so on. But he also has to ask for reciprocity and so on. So he sent a request and I will let him interrogate these people anytime because we have a treaty. So why is that? That's an interesting point. Reciprocity means therefore that they also get to examine what the evidence is supposed to be. No, no, no. He actually mentioned the whole case. That there was somebody by the name of Bowdoin who had made a million and a half in Russia and paid no taxes on them. Russia or in the United States and contributed 400,000 something like that to Hillary Clinton campaign. So he said, he has it, he has it, he has it, he has it from how he made money here. He paid taxes and we want to interrogate him as to what the whole cycle is where he makes money here. He has no taxes, just runs away, contributes to the Clinton election fund. And we just want to know, we would like to interrogate people like that. And he said, there have been 190 such requests and we have always worked it out. So Mr. Mueller can just send me a request. So far is that, particularly episodes. Generally, my view of the summit is the things of that sort did not, did not at all affect the summit. This thing of the whole of the US establishment, official and non-official, that is to say the whole media, and I must say that the liberal left in the United States refers to Putin exactly the way the most far-right people do. This whole language of terror and terror and killer, this there in the earth, it's a broad consensus on when it comes to talking to Putin. So this thing was heavily defined support of that. I was saying to you, I think last time, the time that everything that Trump is doing is geared towards his next, his reaction. All of this is addressed to his base. Therefore, look at the timing. It's beautiful. He goes to the G7, inserts them all. Then he goes to NATO, inserts them all, pay up. This is protection money, etc. Exactly what he was saying during his campaign. And immediately after that, he goes to Helsinki. And for the first time in his public life since the elections, he talks sense. Which is quite strange and no wonder the American official media is so upset. He was subdued. He read from a written text. He was subdued. Then asked questions. He took on the American media. The American media tried to make, to, you know, deliver beef. You must not talk, let them talk about substantive issues. You must focus on this and embarrass them. He just took them on. Breaking all protocol on Russian soil. He denounced the American intelligence agencies, this, that, and the other. Now, the American establishment jumping up and down. Ben End, who was the CIA chief under the NSA chief, I think, under Obama, is saying that this is treason. Ben, I mean, the whole of the American media was trying to sabotage the actual discussion, to focus on this. And they thought they were going to embarrass them. Just do you remember any time in history, yours and mine, yours longer than mine, that we have a scenario where there's such a consensus in the United States cutting across party lines that peace with Russia is not on the table. And any understanding on arms, any understanding on larger engagements, West Asia, any other place is not to be discussed with the Russians. And these are two nuclear powers who have the capacity to destroy the globe a number of times. Do you remember such a scenario? I honestly cannot see this kind of consensus. Just a little. What is new? You know, during, you know, when the USSR was alive and well, this sort of thing was going on all the time. They have to give us this, that, and the other. This is the framework. Otherwise, we won't talk to them, etc., etc. We must not talk to them. What is there to talk to these people, etc. But this is going on. What's in your case? Then the president doesn't believe that. So that, that is not what is crazy. And US presidents, those times used to take seriously the fact that this is a strategic consensus. There is an inter-systemic rivalry between capitalism and socialism. We cannot, etc., etc. It was real. So, so the consensus was much bigger. On the one hand, there used to be this rationality that sooner or later you have to talk to it. But conditions, there is conditions there. But there was a post, the Cuban crisis, there was a acceptance that there is no way we can really defeat the Soviet Union. And therefore, there has to be some arms discussion, some limitation, some hotline, and so on. The so-called success of the mutually assured destruction policies, that flow from that. I mean, what has happened in the United States is that, you know, there is, it's so ideologically driven that they no longer have a view of what their actual strategic interests are. The entire liberal left, democratic party, everybody in the United States now has one point program, which is denounce Trump, whatever he does, etc., etc. So actually, what has happened in the United States is that there is a very general collapse of politics. And the Soviet Union was there, United States actually had a very, very competent diplomatic intelligence political establishment, which knew how to behave, as you rightly said, after Cuba, a Cuban-Russellian crisis, and, you know, after Kostya talked about the coexistence of two systems and so on, peaceful coexistence and so on, the Americans understood that in their direct thing, there has to be, you know, containment is that and the other. But the powerful wars would be fought on the peripheries in the time period. That's right. You know, there would be no war there and so there were certain norms. But with NATO expansion to the east, the Baltic states, Poland, positioning of anti-ballistic, ballistic missiles, this is really changing. You see, this is what I meant by saying that there were norms. When the President of the United States gives an undertake, whether it is or not, that NATO will not move one inch beyond its present boundaries towards Russia. And then you break that, and you know, so there are no norms. The earlier period when the Soviet Union really was there, what happened with the collapse of the Soviet Union is that the arrogance of American power became uncontrolled. And now, it has been uncontrolled for 25 years and now it cannot perceive the fact that during this period, the balance of power is shifting in a way even more dramatic than when the Soviet Union was there. This is the new reality which the US establishment is not willing to accept or recognize and they think they can change it. Yes, because of this 25 years of, you know, this arrogance of imperial sovereignty that they have exercised all over the world with the fall of the Soviet Union, they no longer have that kind of government which understands that there are constraints. If you know this, you cannot go. Why the world has changed? The current strategic doctrine talks about revisionist powers that China and Russia are revisionist powers so that they're challenging our hegemony. And that's actually something which cannot be accepted. You know, Pravee, I was reading some of Putin's speeches over the last one year. In one of them, he details the what has been gained in Russia since he came to power. And then there are pages and pages of what has happened in terms of the improvement of the weapon systems in Russia, etc. and that there are now levels of cutting technology that Russia has that are far beyond what the United States has now. This is also interesting because that's with only a 10% of the defense budget that the US has. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. And you know, it is so interesting to be reading those speeches. Those speeches are, they remind you of the kind of speeches that Nehru and Nasser used to make about how to develop your country. The entire thing is about development of Russia. And the role of the state about this, that or the other, but I won't go into all that. The point that I was trying to make is that at the point where Russia has arrived in military, if this economic alliance between Russia and China becomes also a military alliance, then the fate of the United States is seen as a global hegemon. Yes. So there as close as that. And interestingly, both Brzezinski and Kissinger had warned that Russia and China should be kept apart. Kissinger saying at one point, we are tilting towards China today, but 25 years later, we might need to tilt to the other side. So that was, that was his. I suspect that this particular summit has in its backdrop about perhaps half a dozen closed door sessions between Trump and Kissinger. Trump by himself, you think the Trump by himself could not have come to this realization. You see, I mean, for one thing, I know for a fact, it's a, it's a very known fact that Trump has been having these closed door meetings as isn't over the last three months. I think it's Kissinger's tutoring of tutoring that look, you already have the vessels. You just have to tell them to shape up and they follow. But Russia, you must not again, you must make friends with Russia. There are major points of contention between Russia and China. You should not create a situation in which the two parts to decide, to set all of that aside and make far greater, closer allies, etc. That's the point that you will make, to keep them apart. So this whole continuation of Russia, and it is so dramatic to me at least after he went and insulted all his allies, both of the economic front and the military front, and then becoming, going there and talking like a decent person who's come to see him because he has some problems, so sort of thing with Russia. It's very striking. And I think there's some, there's a method to this man, this particular, see there's a method to this man, that there's a strategic thinking that he has been made aware of from outside the existing consensus in the US intelligence and resources. Do you also think that this is also one of the reasons that in South Syria now, the Syrian government has had a more or less easy victory. It seems now that they have been able to clear out Dara and some of the other places. They are coming up to Jolan, the line which Israel has said, well, they have to keep that distance, otherwise you can come up to what is the sort of no man's land between Israel, held Jolan and Syrian, Israel occupied Jolan and the Syrian territory. So do you think that's a part of this understanding? You know, it is very interesting. During their press conference, Trump talked very responsibly about the degree of cooperation there has been between the US and Russia in containment of ISIs. And so, and that the Russians have been very constructive in that partnership. And then when it came to the question of Syria, it's very interesting. In a very restrained manner, Trump stated the US position that we have to be at the oldest and closest friends. We have to support Israel's needs for security, etc. We are going to. And Putin said the objective is to separate the forces, Syrian and Israeli forces, to the status quo and immediately went to, that will help resolve the humanitarian question. And I have spoken to President Macron the other day and we have decided to deliver and Russia has offered these huge airplanes, their planes to bring in the humanitarian aid. Basically saying separation of forces and this humanitarian thing and bringing the refugees back to send them back in Syria is going to go on between us and Europe. And you can join if you want. And Trump was completely restrained on all of that. This is a significant step in Syria. Because this is a very significant thing that we want that separation, which is a polite way of saying that if you don't agree to it, we do it militarily. And at the same time, we are cooperating with Europe. Because you know that means that the more refugees that they compare, the fewer of them they go to Europe. And therefore we are co-ordinated with Russia. And the point is, I know you've come into the game or not. It still leaves the question of east of Euphrates, what's going to happen, the Al-Tanaf enclave, which the US still controls. And of course the northern borders, which is Kurdish and Kentucky. So that still remains. Right. You see, what is impressive is that non-military talk. And at the same time, hence somebody's, some correspondent asked about trust. Putin was almost angry. He said, apparently you get the idea that it's trust. I am the president of Russia. I defend the interests of the Russian Federation. He is the president of the United States. He defends the interests of the United States. There is a question, what are your thoughts? You know, quite a performance. So, you know, in other words, we have our kinds of differences. We are not going to, those who will talk about it behind closed doors. But some of the lines we are taking here are the lines. You know, Trump says, we will do what, we will support whatever Syria Israelis say is their security interests. And to that extent, Russia and Syria have reciprocated by not having Iranian troops in this particular operations. And neither has Iran too much of an interest to want to get in over there, as long as their strategic interests are served, which is clearing that area of ISIS. He said, whether or not the question of Iranian residents in Syria has something to do with me, it's for the Syrian government to decide. That's not, it's not a matter undermined. Iran still remains an opener. If Syria wants the Iranis to stay, let's stay. However, there is, yes, Bashar al-Assad on the other hand said, yes, of course, I let, I completely guarantee that Iran isn't going out of Syria. But that to happen, Israel has to vacate the Jordan. It's an operation of our territory. Yes, well, might have forgotten it, but the Syrians can't. Iran's situation still remains unresolved. The Iran sanctions, what Trump is doing on that, that doesn't seem to have been resolved in any way in this, in this summit. That's still remains there. Except that, again, what is important is not just the resolution, in my view to be, I think what is very important is that in that press conference, which is the only thing I'm going by. Yes, of course. Because what the media says is just, even if that's not where you can get in, news or interpretation, that news or interpretation has disappeared from the media. So there, which was very interesting, both sides stated their position in, in the way which is proper to such press conferences, to which, I mean, Trump has never observed those protocols. That's what's important here. Putin said it is the most controlled country in the world. It's entire nuclear programs completely under control. And he used that way as the most controlled country in the world. And it was the best agreement. And we must support this, and so on, and Trump said it. You see, big things you cannot expect from this. And whatever has been said, even if somebody has moved here, a little bit here and there, of course, real negotiations are not going to be relieved. But the very fact that in the teeth of the entire establishment in, to the point that Fox News, etc., are going crazy criticizing Trump for what he did and thinking, rightly, far right, is enraged. They're efficient people. It's enraged. Only he's evening himself. So, you know, it's that far, you know. So he went there in the teeth of all of that, and himself, restrained himself on his usual measurements. Thank you. Thank you, Ajaz. I think this has been a very interesting discussion. And Trump's, at least what he will do, is make changes in the way American presidents have behaved, if nothing else. So every engagement of this kind is going to provide us with some discussion, material for discussion and focus. Thank you, Ajaz, for being with us. We hope to see you again as these things develop. And Mr. Trump continues to entertain and enrage us. Thank you, Ajaz, and hope to see you again. This is all the time we have for NewsClick today. For this episode, do keep watching future episodes of NewsClick. Visit our YouTube page and also our webpage.