 Okay, okay, okay, okay. This is Think Tech. I'm Jay Fiedel and this is a show called it never got quiet In fact, I think we should be concerned if it does get quiet But it never got quiet that's name of the show and we're talking about how the end of the draft affected the military and how it affected the country since then from the middle 70s till now and for this very Important discussion. We have Vic Kraft. He used to be the host of it never got quiet a couple years ago Welcome back to your show Vic. Nice to see your smile and face. Great to be here, Jay Yeah, so Okay, the draft ended, you know, and I'm sure you remember the time that it did I'll tell you just to warm things up that when I when I heard they were ending the draft of Gerald Ford It was I think I was very concerned because I saw a diminution of the relationship between the people The citizens if you will and the state and that was a concern to me. What was your reaction at the time? Curiously, I had a hallway conversation with one of our maintenance officers one day when this happened And I was still on active duty at the time and I said I said there's a great danger here as far as the leavening of the So the people that we have within that we're going to enlist What kind of a recruit are we going to find from the population from from the American populace? that we're going to recruit train and make warfighters out of and Where are they coming from? What's their background? so With the draft we had a much wider variety of people from all different aspects of life and all different economic backgrounds religions etc We started to start Getting less and less of a variety of people and the minority in or let's put it this way What we were concerned with at that time was those with a lower Education came from an economic background that was Not as pleasant as middle-class America Look looking to the military as being a way of getting out of that that environment Not as a career so much as a way to escape Yeah, and that and that but that leads to consequences. So what consequences did you see at the time? Did you were you concerned about the relationship of government and the electorate? Not so much at that time I think what it amounted to we were concerned with the immediate and that was what is the result of of this The government particularly the Navy in the Air Force I don't know about the Army, but we changed the training and started cutting back Budgets were more important Uniform allocations etc. Just it was all about money at that time and cutting back and cutting back and cutting back and We were concerned primarily with warfighting ability In in terms of what kind of armaments where we're going to be getting what weapons and you stop to consider that Better than 55 percent of the budget of the Department of Defense actually goes to paying people not just salaries, but also in retirement and disability So that other 45 percent is all the operations and maintenance Procurement and everything else that goes in there But you look at today in terms of what we are spending as a country on our arms or the Department of Defense budget We outstrip everybody. I think the next seven Leaders in terms of defense spending Can come close to what the United States is spending and that includes russia china, uh, japan, germany So we're not we're not spending as much as we used to in a relative way Uh, probably not but it's what we're spending it on That's what concerns us. I think we still have a problem ever since the end of the cold war Who's our enemy? And I don't think the russians ever went away and everybody's looking at china as being the bad guys well You're gonna have a hard time transporting their army anywhere outside of asia They don't have the logistics. They don't have The wherewithal to do it that the united states does we can plant troops anywhere on the planet And still support them We're the largest armed forces in the world in terms of Expenditures and also armaments not necessarily in terms of people That belongs to the chinese they can put more boots on the ground than we can You haven't mentioned the middle east of course the middle east is a big factor today and uh, you know This argument some both sides of the united states being the world's policemen and sending all these fast moving mobile troops Into the middle east to do whatever the commander-in-chief decides on a given morning. They should be doing Uh, how is that working? Do you think? In my conversations with a lot of the troops that have come back from afghanistan and iraq and uh, even egypt and various other places in the world that I had one major Say he couldn't tell me where he had been but I knew where he had been because I had been there myself and uh, I said, uh, what What's the reaction? What are the how the troops feel about this? And they uh, he said they know they're being used Uh, what's the mission? Uh, and I've asked a question in in uh, civil beat in a couple of other places Uh, what what is our uh, our policy? What what is our our interests? We keep hearing from congress and from Various leaders in in government. Uh, we have a mission where we have American interests to protecting those in those areas. Well, what are the american interests? I don't think they've ever been spelled out Well, it reminds me of uh, you know after world war two where we saw ourselves as the policemen for the world And um corrected a lot of bad things that were happening at the time um, we were uh, we had the greatest generation And uh, we were on a roll in the sense that we had Greater prestige greater influence greater authority not only on a military level or geopolitical level, but on an economic level On a demand a foreign policy level. We were really in great shape Because of because of what we had done. We were heroes for a long time. Sure knocking the draft off I thought was um, I thought was a step backward in the sense that um, all of a sudden Uh, we were not willing to not willing to be what we said we wanted to be and over time look what happened Uh, we had we had a you know a decline of our influence. We had a decline of our policy as you say Uh, we had a decline of the um, you know about our hero status And right now I don't know if you can say we're a hero We're a grandstander as we saw in the last couple of days in india with uh, premier modi And uh, and trump but are are we still a hero? Um, and I think there's a relationship between Being a hero and and having a military does heroic things and I agree with you that what what happens in the Middle East We are really not we're not a hero. We're not achieving anything It sounds like it's more political than anything else Uh, and we haven't we haven't really done anything heroic there Uh, every time we do something it seems like it's more like anti heroic But let me let me go to the question of how Uh, the public in the united states Sees the military how the press sees the military How other people elsewhere see the military post draft. Let me back you up a little bit Yeah, let's go back to the end of rule war two. Okay, typically Uh, america has uh been suspicious of its military Uh, that's how the constitution has been written in that, uh This it takes second it does not take precedence. Uh, it's under a commander in chief who is a civilian Uh, and he must follow the orders of the civilian hierarchy Well at the end of world war two, uh, we didn't immediately become the world's cop As a matter of fact, we started disbanding, uh, divisions and We went from the largest armed force in the world to where we're starting to take World war two era tanks and putting them on pedestals. Yeah, just as we did after world war one Yeah, and and the funny part about that was when, uh, korea started up those tanks had to be taken off the pedestals to be used in korea so it was uh We just okay war's over. Uh, we won done. Let's get on with the the business of being the greatest country in the world so korea the korean conflict More or less changed the style of warfare uh becoming uh political and becoming uh Oh, what's the term i'm looking for? Uh When you're doing something for somebody else basically they were altruistic. Uh, no they they were They were doing the russians bidding is what it amounted to okay, and uh, so the chinese got thrown into it and uh, you had all of these uh other uh people fighting the un forces And I think that's the last time the russians ever walked out on the security council after that vote but What happened is warfare changed and the draft was still in in effect and uh, you it still wasn't enough I had a friend of mine who was a marine reservist who was called up Hadn't even been to basic training hadn't been to uh entry to training regiment thrown on a boat and sent to uh, uh, korea To be a part of the first uh marine provisional brigade so it was We have today since then a war come as you are Where it's going to be quick and dirty if it's going to be nuclear or if it's going to be large armies It's not going to be a sustained effort However, what we've learned in the middle east is It's protracted Now why I don't know what are our interests other than uh protecting israel Uh, is there any great resource that we're after other than oil? Well, we're all this big. Yeah. I mean the energy is huge Uh, it runs our society or our civilization So that's important But I look at syria and turkey going at it now And you have essentially a russian ally Going against a nato country, but that nato country has been making overtures to the russians So it's kind of scurry as to what's going on there But in terms of getting back to your question as far as what the armed forces are doing today and how they are reacting Well, I want to I want to flush that out a little bit for you. You know, I saw a couple of days ago I don't know if I told you I saw the Hunters series on amazon Very interesting and it's had reviews on both sides of the coin But it certainly is a very engaging series. It's hard not to watch it And one of the things that came out for me You mentioned that you already knew about this was operation paperclip Operation paperclip happened in 1945 in the united states where the united states government Was um was bringing nazi scientists Nazi military people Nazi technology people nazi doctors Over here and providing jobs and work and money and homes and and citizenship Roughly a thousand of them came over on this operation paper. I didn't know that happened I don't you know, I said i'm impressed that you knew Bottom line, though, is that they were not the government at the time was not Transparent with us. They didn't tell us about it. This was essentially secret in 1945 I guess the people would have reacted to it if they had known about it We just finished the war. Yeah So my question to you is um, you know, it's a question of transparency Uh, the united states has been relatively speaking transparent I I would say on a declining basis by the time we got to vietnam. They were not very transparent But how is transparency, you know, how has it been affected by these changes we're talking about? Post vietnam post the end of the draft I had an interesting conversation with the uh, uh, a former state legislator about politics I think you know jim shawn and uh, we we were chatting about, uh, what politics is all about And it's supposed to be transparent. That is you know, a politician is supposed to be a person who brings issues to debate And is also, uh, this is an open forum Where things are discussed You got to ask yourself a question at what point in time did government start lying to the people? Yes Does it go back to the revolution anymore? Maybe or of 1812? Don't know. Uh, I can't pinpoint a spot where that happened It's part it's part of the arrangement, you know, there's always a certain lack of transparency and at the end of the day It's a question of degree now. Yeah, and uh, I mean if it's for the national interest in terms of national security There are loads of things that we don't know, uh, in regards to our war fighting capability and what we have Hidden behind the closed doors Or what our war plans are you stop to think about all the war plans that have been created like war plan orange and war plan rainbow Uh prior to world war two um in preparation for that conflict and uh, Wasn't made public. Do you want to make let your enemy know what your plans are? Oh, yes, of course and and I would say that's a you know, a definite exception from from the requirement of transparency But I think we have a lot of less than transparent actions by government Silences by government of things that would would not affect the uh, the mission Things that already happened, uh, things that might be embarrassing perhaps But that are they do not undermine national defense Uh, and I think my thought and I'm interested in yours is that over time Especially in recent years when you don't have a A a drafted a drafted, uh, you know army an army with draftees Um, you only have uh volunteers and volunteers are kind of you mentioned a kind of closed society Um, it's easier to be less than transparent It's easier to be in a container somehow where the public outside that container doesn't hear about things You don't want them to hear about you're absolutely correct And I think that uh, that's one of the reasons why the vietnam war ended is because people had skin in the game Uh, I had a neighbor or I had one of my relatives. It was in the armed force Or was going to be going into the armed force or being drafted uh It was an unpopular war after a while and what are we doing here and people started questioning that We had the riots. We had elections. We had assassinations, etc. But in the end, uh, we pulled out of vietnam We didn't win the conflict nor did we lose it either Uh, it just it just ended And we stopped the draft because it was considered a bad thing This is what got us into this into this war And in essence, I disagree with that. I think the draft was a good thing They had a a much wider, uh, spectrum of people coming into the armed forces Not only that you had, uh The public's involvement People knew about basic training. They knew where we had bases They knew about what was going on inside the armed forces and what they were doing Couldn't keep it secret No, you couldn't and, uh, it's It's easier today as you pointed out, uh, having a very close society Uh, in Even With the draft Military life, as you know, you've been in, uh, it's a very segregated life Uh, and it's a very different lifestyle and sometimes it's us and them. Exactly. Uh, but now, uh, I get tickled when people will ask or see Oh, you're a vietnam veteran. Thank you for your service And I kind of wonder what am I supposed to respond with? Thank you for your service. You're welcome Uh, I felt it was a duty at the time Exactly. I had the opportunity, uh, since, uh, I have, uh, Relations in Canada. I could have gone there And, uh, my mother had already made arrangements for me to go there and I didn't. I had already enlisted So I want to take this process one step further, Vic, if you don't mind. Sure Do you have different military? You have, you have, um, sort of different training. You have, um, I'm sure the training is different at the military academies too. It isn't the same Um, and a different career for sure and different infrastructure, you know different command infrastructure if you will In the service and if you look today at, uh, Trump and the Joint Chiefs of Staff You look at all the generals he's hired, which was unprecedented really, uh, as a part of his, uh, immediate staff You know, beyond the Joint Chiefs of Staff And you have all the the the contention By those guys disagreeing with his policies and leaving the White House and writing books about it Um, and and then you have him spending tons of money on the military And saying i'm i'm doing him a favor. I want their loyalty I want the military and the Joint Chiefs to be loyal and one by one as they as the as the ones who are independent leave his, uh, His White House and his Joint Chiefs of Staff He has greater control over the military senior military officials who were there And this gives me concern because this makes Him the commander-in-chief. In fact, as he said the chief law enforcement officer in the country The one who is in charge of everything it means there's nobody there More and more there's nobody there to push back And I wonder what your comments are about that because our military and our senior military officials They're different now and they're less likely to push back the way things have shaped up during this administration. Anyway, what do you think? I have to have faith uh in the officer corps Uh, we have a highly trained highly educated group of people who are motivated Uh, who are professional when I that's an abused term, but uh, who I think They would do right Well, I mean, uh, the lieutenant commander vinman did right Look what happened to him and and it's not over. You know, uh, trump may Uh use undue influence on the military and cause him to be investigated or prosecuted for telling a truth under subpoena congress It's very concerning to me because what it what it signals to other military officials, uh In all in all ranks and files in the military that maybe they they shouldn't speak against the president Even under subpoena even if what they're saying is the truth Sure So what you have is a change in Uh, I don't call transparency candor if you will by the military and a change in the notion that uh, you know Your duty is to the country rather than to the president and in preparation for this discussion today You mentioned to me, which I did not know that the oath of office For officers in the united states military is different than the oath of office For enlisted men that's correct in the united states and this is of concern Because there seems to be kind of a conflict on who your loyalty is too. Can you describe that please? okay, the the uh The oath of office for an officer does not Proclaim loyalty to the president It says to defend the constitution, of course as does the enlisted Oath but the enlisted people are Giving oath or loyalty to the officers appointed above them and the president Officers don't do that And I felt that that was a conflict of interest. I would really love to see the The The judge advocate people get a hold of this thing or military lawyers and uh Understand why there is a difference in the military ranks or the pardoning the enlisted ranks Uh, have a different oath from the officers I don't know but uh, I wanted to comment something about what you just said about uh, loyalties Lieutenant colonel venman. I'm yeah, I'm concerned of any executive branch Or anybody trying to push the military into a corner So that we would eventually have another praetorian guard That was what concerns me. Tell us what a praetorian guard is If you look back at roman history, uh, the praetorian guard was, uh, there to protect the emperor or and what happened was uh Over a period of time it became a corrupt government and the praetorian guard essentially Elected the next emperor in their guard room for whatever price that they could get Uh, and you look at the history of rome from about Oh, uh I'm trying to think about the year 100 ad on and you won't find a whole lot of these emperors surviving Or filling out their term of office. Uh, they were mostly assassinated and mostly assassinated by the military And I would hate to see that happening here. You know like a seven days in main situation We don't need that. Uh, and I think uh in my feeling is I don't think that the officer corps would do that However, given that the president has direct control over the enlisted ranks Could he persuade them? I don't know a direct order from the president Is it an unlawful order? Uh, an unlawful order, of course, so you have an awful lot of NCO academies on all of the services that go over, uh, the uniform quota military justice and what is a lawful order Yeah, and then it gets a little confused when you have the gallagher case Where the guy was convicted by by the officer corps, I guess you'd say in fact The witnesses in that case were his own co-enlisted members of his of his seal team Um, so it's officers and enlisted participated in convicting him. Uh, then he's excused And of course that has a message not only the gallagher. You're a good guy gallagher But the message is to the entire military. You're a good guy. Even if you've been convicted of war crimes Uh, this is of great concern because it breaks down, you know, good order and discipline And it makes war war crimes acceptable To millions of members of the service. It's like no jury would convict me. Yes. Yeah I mean, I think the reaction would have been greater Uh, if the president tried to do that at another time when we had the draft We would have all those guys and all those war movies saying, wait a minute, you know, we come from the streets of Brooklyn You know, we don't tolerate this kind of bull. You can't do that You have to give respect to the military You know process here and you can't you can't favor a war criminal So I think what we have is a breakdown that already broke down, you know, since the middle 70s when the when the draft was repealed and is breaking down at an accelerating accelerating rate right now And I think that you know people in this country are further Uh, than the military than they have ever been really since the war. Well, as you know, uh, you know, peter adler and I wrote a An article that appeared in the star advertiser calling for national service Uh, there is such divisiveness within the country and I think it's as you point out It's become worse and worse since the end of the draft and I think that's one of the reasons why You you no longer have As I said, family groups was skin in the game. The other is You don't have this idea of working with one another We uh to use the tv term polarized You you have people at either end of the the spectrum and nobody in the middle And nobody caring for each other exactly the two ends hate each other. Yeah, this is really a bad situation So let me ask you one question. We only have a few minutes left here Uh, that's sort of that sort of covers all of this. Is it if today whether it's uh, trump This is very unlikely uh or bernie sanders or any president got out there on the on the podium and said I Want to bring the draft back Because I thought the draft was good for the country It was good to integrate the government and the people and you wouldn't grow up, you know Feeling your only contact with the united states with bank taxes Uh, you would grow up feeling that you were part of it. You serve the government the government serves You call it a quid pro quo So I feel I'm the candidate. I feel that we should bring it back What kind of reaction would that candidate have to that particular platform position You know, I've asked the question uh to a number of people and uh, of course I guess maybe it's the people that I hang around with everybody is in favor of it Uh, and I'm be the ex-military or or civilian or having no military experience Uh, personally, I think it's a great idea. I've written about it Uh, and I think a lot of people would agree with it, but I think you would find An awful lot of people particularly young folks who would be faced with this as a part of their life And resent it and not want it And object to it Yeah, and the question is whether they would resent it and not want it and object to it Because they were being thrown in harm's way or because and we have to leave it at this notion Or because they had no confidence in the united states policy foreign policy war policy defense policy To put them in a in a in a battle Which was which was which was moral and right and appropriate And uh, I think that's also a factor in why people would not want to draft Just like what happened in vietnam, they would sort of replay that and say gee, I I don't I don't want to fight in a stupid war You draft me and that's where I'll be because I don't have any confidence that the government makes intelligent wars jay was its lack of faith and lack of lack of confidence and Did we ever find the weapons of mass destruction? Did we ever see the light at the end of the tunnel? Did we actually stop the communism in southeast asia? it just You're totally right. It's philosophy. It's it's in we we need to I go back to william letterer in the ugly american We are terrible at our foreign policy We'll have to leave it there. Hopefully there's a light at the end of the tunnel That's vik kraft the the former host and a great guest on it never got quiet. Thank you so much. Thank you so much aloha