 Hello and welcome to town meeting TVs under the dome, which is our coverage of the Vermont legislature My name is Bobby Lucia and I'll be your host for today's program today, we are looking at the legislature's response to the Historic flooding that occurred in Vermont communities earlier this summer and to learn a little bit about how the legislature responded to the flooding events We're joined by Representative Emma Mulvaney-Stanek. Thank you so much Emma for joining us today Thanks for having me Bobby. Awesome. So we'll start just as a legislator Where are you getting your information about the flooding impact and the recovery process? What data sources are you looking at and how is the state sort of just tracking the damage that was caused by the floods? It's a great question to start with because I like to remind people how a part-time legislature works in the state of Vermont because we If we were in session we would be receiving I think more daily briefings and more regular updates But since this flood happened off session the legislature meets usually from January to May and since this happened in July We've been really sort of getting information I feel sort of secondhand and sort of in a passive in a passive way from sort of the updates that are the public gets Sort of an unfortunate in real time That the public is hearing those updates So I did have a fortune or I don't know if it's the fortune But why did I have the ability to get a little bit more of a front-row seat because the House Commerce and Economic Development Committee For which I serve on in the house had a joint hearing with the Senate Economic Development Committee at the very end of July We were gonna originally talk about a totally different bill and just use a bit of our summer to get a little bit of a head start It was actually a consumer protection bill but it was two weeks after the flood hit and it felt very important to flip and Focus completely on flood relief and we heard from something like 40 or so witnesses over the course of that day And that was frankly the most informative Place I've received information since the floods I think the other other reality that I think even for Monters who are in the most impacted communities are also understanding is that the state has It's been really tricky to navigate Information as someone who has been impacted by the flood and frankly even as someone who wants to volunteer and help and know Where to make the best impact so I'm sure we'll get into it But one of the things I'm certainly taking as a major lesson and need for better policy and better just Procedures and functions is how we operate in a crisis and how we figure out as a state how to Respond as a whole community and provide mutual aid from city to town You know from those are not impacted to those impacted because I think there's a lot of a lot of things that the state Didn't do as well as it could have and I think we're still in reaction mode versus being able to kind of really Document like what are the systems that didn't necessarily meet people's needs So you mentioned that hearing who were some of the people that you did hear from and Who do you think might have been missing? Who do you wish that you had heard? So we heard primarily and it's more than just these two towns of course that were impacted by the flood But we primarily heard from folks in Montpelier and Berry and it really became this theme of a tale of two cities Frankly around how different those communities are and full disclosure. I grew up in Berry City So my hometown was devastated by this flood. I've never seen that city Just in such destruction mode and people's lives like just out on the front lawns You know the whole place I used to get creamies walked down, you know during the summer That building was totally pretty much gutted on the main street and going through a very city So we heard from those two communities and we heard from the mayors we heard from volunteers We heard from folks who were primarily The the main volunteer coordinators at least in those initial days, but we also heard from state leaders We heard from folks representing businesses Again, this was the economic development committee. So our jurisdiction is really around largely business And and and supporting businesses and commerce and whatnot. I wish we had heard a little bit more on housing That's not what the house committee's jurisdiction was but it is the jurisdiction the Senate committee we were with and Long story short, they held a later hearing I think they did some field visits in Berry around housing because it was very it's very clear like the two biggest Actually, it's probably three big areas of most impact in these communities and that's around the housing stock Which we already have a housing crisis. So this certainly did nothing to help that and but there's a great It's a great piece of information around the disparities between how Montpelier and Berry fared is Berry had the most negative impact on its housing Stock, they estimated something like 10% of their housing stock Was was damaged or unlivable after that flood 10% and of course That's where a lot of folks can afford to live in central Vermont is Berry Where versus in Montpelier was much more like businesses Impacted those right in the downtown and very much less so actual people's basic living space And so it's been interesting to see the city. I started to say to the state like sort of flood with this response of they stood Up a $20 million business relief grant program pretty quickly, which maybe we'll talk a little bit more about But there's not been that same level of of state immediate response to help Homeowners in particular and especially renters and I think that's a big again big policy area around when we because when it will happen again when we have these big Crises these climate crises that cause you know the the weather to you know to destroy people's livelihoods and their and their their homes People who have less economic privilege and less economic resources are going to Disproportionately be negatively impacted by these these incidences So how can we proactively know what systems and Pieces need to be in place for us to know where the renters are we do not have a rental registry in Vermont And know what these folks need in terms of protections and resources And I can go on on and about it I went to volunteer and bury a couple times since the flood renters are many of them are still living in these In these apartment buildings that are it's questionable if there's mold growing It's questionable if they should be living on the second floor is because the first wars have been flooded out And some landlords are requiring them still to pay their full rent It's it's there's a lot, but there's so many limited protections for renters in this state That it puts people in a really precarious situation And of course we all know that Vermont has a serious housing crisis So where else are people to go and it's just heartbreaking these stories of people who are trying to figure it all out Stay with friends who who want to make changes about where they live But there's literally no option left for folks You mentioned the small business grant program. Can you just outline what are the resources that the state has made available for recovery right now? She said twenty million dollars for small business recovery Sawed more recently efficiency Vermont came out with a program for replacing appliances But mentioned that gap in supporting homeowners and renters. So what what are the resources that are out there right now? So there's there the state has done a decent job And it's a few and a few places upon many multiple state websites are trying to pull all those resources together I actually put an update out to my constituents and I'm happy to share a link which has it all listed out Because I broke it down for individual relief business relief based on also where people can still donate because they're still of great need for people to get that support and Donations less less so at this point like clothes and and physical donations with more money and relief money like that For specific to the twenty million dollar grants I'm looking at my notes because they they were launching it that week that last week of July or so I'm getting the program up and running It's called the business emergency grant program It's run by the agency of commerce and community development through their economic development department And they their whole premise is to Help to the net damages that a business again This is only for businesses the net the net damages that people Experience some in theory people are going to get some level of coverage from either FEMA or insurance if they even had flood Insurance, which is a whole other real gap in understanding How hard it is to protect your business or your home against these natural disasters But the premise of this grant program is to provide 20% up to 20% Of of a business's net damages that they can document and it'll be maxed out at about $20,000, but if someone had severe damages or business it could be a grant up to a million dollars depending on the documentation that people can Provide I think this is all well and good But the another another piece that I'm concerned about when we you know stand up grant programs in particular is the Process and the criteria that we have because just not so long ago We had millions of dollars we were putting out again through federal money at the time from COVID to do COVID relief grant money to businesses and We did we did two rounds of that as or maybe even three rounds at that point And it was just there as a legislator I'm trying to figure out did the money go to those who are most impacted Where what could we have learned from that process and I asked these questions actually in the hearing at the end of July Because to me it's a very similar setup around there. We know that there are some businesses That are more negatively impacted by the flood than others There are many businesses that are either sole proprietor or they have limited staff They don't have a bookkeeper or CPA or maybe even you know quick books to have everything ready to submit, you know Click ready to the ACC D office when they put a grant program up And so one of my continued concerns is and we heard this through other testimony in July is that but in Particular BIPOC owned businesses and businesses owned by people who were English is not their primary language are often the last to know that these grant programs even Exist they're trying to put their livelihoods back together and again with that story between Montpelier and Barry Some people were were it doubly hit by this where their business was impacted in Montpelier or Barry for that matter And their housing was also impacted by the flood and so when you're trying to dig out Which I'm sure they're still doing six weeks or so after this flood The capacity to then find a grant program is is pretty limited and my major concern was that this program And I want people to know this it's first come first serve at this point So if you can get your foot in the tour and you can have everything ready to go as I mentioned Which shows a lot of privilege and ability to have those things and all of your paperwork ready to go and document it You're you're gonna get in the front of line And I'm really worried about the people who are not even in line yet And if all those funds are gonna be depleted and then again we repeat some of the lessons I wish we had learned during COVID where the folks who really needed to hear all this information and needed a little bit more Support to get to that that application point are gonna be left behind. Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned folks with language access needs Are you aware of how the state is approaching sharing flood recovery resources and information with folks with language access needs in Vermont and You know, are there ways that we need to improve in that process right now? It's still where we're at. It's still such a work in progress I mean, I have to say instead of a big event either COVID was the last really large event like an or the flood happening and then it taking weeks for there to be follow-up with Just basic translation of basic information people should know around mold mitigation or where to get resources and whatnot I have to say the state did have that Language access sort of ready within a few days of the flood I think they partnered I you can check me on this one that with the language access justice pro I won't have their name correct, but to put out some various videos in different languages and They also partnered with the Vermont professionals of color network Which did actual literally boots on the ground walking into impacted businesses where it was BIPOC owned businesses And if they came across people who were English was not their primary language They were able to kind of help connect and bring forward But one of the concerns I had is that you know while Vermont professionals of color were called in as a partner They aren't a primary partner at the table from the get-go And so that's where I think we still need to have further work And actually just last session we put in money for the state to finally have a bit more of a Standardized language access plan throughout state government, but of course that just started in July and that's not up stood up at this point so I hope in Within the next year whatever that need for easier language access will become a Little bit more seamless because we'll have a statewide system that we have finally acknowledged that we need to have something in place And it can't just be Reactionary or a la carte and just cross your fingers that a translator happens to be ready to go You know meet with folks in in the communities. Yeah. Yeah I mentioned before there's so much damage the need is so great in the recovery process right now and the legislature has Put out, you know a few different programs to address some of that need But how did the legislature in the state of Vermont prioritize the resources the needs that are being put out and You mentioned housing is one big one. What needs are not being met right now by the state? And Specific to the flood I just want to remind folks like we haven't been in session So basically all the decision-making that's happening right now is being done by the administration by the governor And so whether or not the legislature agrees with it. We haven't even had a chance to weigh in I think one of the other Factors that's a little odd to me. Frankly is after Irene hit the chopper storm Irene The governor at the time Governor Shumlin did call the legislature back in To talk about more immediate flood relief recovery Engaged that arm of government to kind of co-think and and problem-solve together and Governor Scott has not even mentioned breathe the word about whether or not to bring the legislature back and we will not go back Until January we actually have a brief but it's only for the for reasons of addressing the impeachment of the Franklin County Sheriff and perhaps though I think he just resigned the other sheriff from Orange County in October But we're not allowed to do much more business than that and so Again, it's a it's frustrating as a policymaker and state leader to not be able to actually a get real-time information And B start to kind of really Have a pop up any sort of impact on the policies in these programs that they're setting up in these emergencies When I mentioned a CCD's business grant program the legislature has no say in the criteria They're setting up well We'll be able to kind of have a reactionary review back in January perhaps But all that money and that criteria they're being able to stand up because of the fact that we're not in session It defaults to the administration right This is always a complicated question, but where does The money actually come from for recovery resources that are stood up an event like this that obviously isn't Planned for well, I don't want to say obviously because it could be but where does you know how does a Program like the small business grant program or other efforts that the state takes to aid and recovery How does that impact taxpayers? so large portion of Crisis money comes from the federal government when a county Or a region of a state is to is actually declared meets the criteria of a like a natural disaster And so it it was sort of done in various sequencing and as people probably read in the media Some of them were pretty obvious like Washington County was immediately declared declared a County for emergency purposes as was I'm sure Windsor County with Ludlow and whatnot in that area And I think perhaps a lamoille county initially and then a few others were sort of later filed and it brought in and that's important because a Few things get sort of like switched on in that case So people are eligible for FEMA relief both businesses Sorry individuals are really are eligible for FEMA relief businesses are not and There's a different program through SBA the small business administration for businesses Which I'll come back to that in just a second because there's again a structural challenge around people accessing SBA loans After coming out of COVID and many of them taking out additional loans to gather that It's a lot of people aren't even able or wanting to access these federally backed SBA loans And I could speak more to that so FEMA is a big piece of ever the federal government also and in times of Natural disaster there's also additional funds for unemployment that get released from the federal government if you're in one of those counties that are Designated the tricky part though is that as Vermont is experienced and I think a lesson about climate change and erratic weather patterns As we've had continual issues in other parts of the state that are not in those counties with additional storms that have rolled through the state And there is this like delay of will they get a FEMA? you know will they get a disaster declaration for Addison County for example of mudslides or Or whatever the other stuff to come is and that still hasn't been Determined as far as I know the other piece is that the federal delegation did testify some of the representatives from our senator Sanders and senator Welch's office and Congresswoman balance office to talk about how they're trying to get additional federal relief money for Vermont through Congress They're in recess right now, so it hasn't happened but trying to get even more flexible money through that's the primary way But it's slow and people have to kind of apply for it. The other way is for more immediate Relief like the state's twenty million dollar Emergency grant program for businesses and other money that they're trying to free up in other ways For emergency housing for folks which ironically you and I talked at the end of the session around the GA emergency housing program That same program where we were debating at the end of the legislative session around Housing unhoused folks in the motel program is the same program that folks who experience a natural disaster access When they have an emergency need for housing So it's I find that just quite ironic that we are are needing to continue to use this program on when people are experiencing a housing crisis But so those kind of programs get drawn out of other resources like that basically think about like the cash balance for the state and actually we actually are in a really pretty positive the treasure also testified a positive place in terms of other resources that can be moved around to help in an emergency time and where there's a bit of a I guess we're sort of in the black if you will in terms of the bottom line for the state And so they're gonna probably draw some of those resources from from there until the legislature comes back And we do some budget adjustments to move money around from various funds And that's what we do anyway But we'll do that in more with a more significant I because of this these emergency programs that have had to be stood up And the first six months of the fiscal year right does the flooding impact the states or you're thinking about those emergency housing that that emergency housing program and it's I know that it was Extended in a way, but you know Do you see this these events as having any impact on the potential longevity of that program or other ways that we can support Folks who are housing insecure right well I you know I was a one of the proponents who when we ended in May and we're working towards the the June veto session who was really trying to put multiple different options out there rather than the just either completely ending the program Which was initially what was going to happen at the end of May and then by the end of June I think I have my timelines right the motel housing This is the motel housing program right for folks who had an extension during the pandemic to stay in motel housing for stability purposes right and there's and most of these people qualified for Some sort of voucher program because they either made low enough income or had a Living with a disability or whatnot, but there was literally nowhere to move to and an average it can take up to a year If not year and a half to actually find housing so So with that reality and with us also putting in some other more investments that are going to come online Maybe two or three years out. I definitely see a role for the j housing program needing to be adequately funded and not have Such harsh criteria, which were was implemented in our compromise in June was that the program will be extended for certain populations But with this high bar of criteria that people have to Recertify and as many people will tell you the first month of July Which was also overlap with the sled, of course a lot of folks Came out of the program not because they found housing but because the criteria was so difficult to Recertify themselves even if they had everything Going for them and they could recertify it was so overly complex that people got pushed out of the program We should have been in there. So we really have to I think do Some moral moral searching about our values as a state and understand that even when folks have subs level of housing There's gonna be these times of emergency and then the other piece of course with folks who weren't Qualifying for that program anymore as a July 1st many of those folks were camping Which we knew was gonna happen and a lot of folks were camping along waterways and and you know We're also completely negatively impacted They're all their belongings swept away in this flood and there's little to no response to help these folks in terms of Their eligibility or where they are even communicating with these folks around Finding them some sort of emergency-based housing to get their back on their feet and and to find a path forward So we have a lot to do and I think We have to I would say you know really think about housing folks And having that be the primary focus and not thinking about like all these different Categorizing people in all these different ways of who's most worthy to receive housing and be in the program for periods of time I really think that if we are gonna solve our housing crisis We have to have a more humane approach to understanding why people become unhoused and what are we to do to really build a Responsible bridge until we have more actual housing stock built in the state right and another element of that Crisis is taking place in Manufactured home communities and many of which are built in floodplains and are you How is the state thinking about those supporting those folks who live in those floodplains and I know there have been programs to Essentially try and buy those folks out to find a new a new home that's not in a floodplain What are the efforts that the state is taking to offer safer housing for folks living in floodplains currently and are we? Still building are we are we still currently building in floodplains now? That's a few questions Maybe we'll start with our planes in general and just the plight of like lower-income people This is been a chronic issue not just in Vermont, but all over I'm sure the world The the cheapest place to build housing and often where low-income housing is placed are often in these floodplains or these places that are just more vulnerable to an issue of You know a natural disaster and so after Irene I wasn't legislator them But after Irene among the many recommendations they learned through that flooding process was that there really needed to be a State fund set up to help buy people out who were in some of the most dangerous places where flooding was going to very Lightly happen again, and so that program came and went it was fully utilized as I understand it and just came away It doesn't exist right now So the legislature would have to stand up such a program again to like to lead to and come up with criteria of when and how to Buy people out. I think the other reality is that people You know it's impossible. There's only I think we got a statistic something like less than 3% of Vermonters have flood insurance So it's also this piece around where where and how can we also Work with our federal delegation, whichever level regulates, you know flood insurance How can we make sure that insurance companies are also brought to the table so that they aren't able to discharge that's high premiums Which makes it impossible for people To protect their properties and businesses for that matter, too I do think we need to do a combination of things both partnering folks to help figure out how to buy people out and move them to a place that is More flood resilient. I don't know what the right terminology is But I also think we have to kind of reimagine and design how we're thinking about our communities My hometown of Berry City if you've been in Berry City, they corralled all the rivers that go through and streams that go through that city into these narrow cinder block wells granted actually granted granite blocks Passageways right and the river has nowhere to go and when it jumps those banks it goes right into these low-lying communities Right and so I think we have to also think about redesigning how we've really constricted water flow and really think about other mitigations that not only like removing people's housing, but thinking about places for that water to go and different urban design around Around just water management and that's gonna require support and resources from municipalities because Berry City It shouldn't be just on the shoulders of Berry City to figure that out I think it's again a role for the city to partner and figure out. Sorry the state to partner around Resources and partnership and also the federal government. Yeah, you've touched on it here, and we only have a few minutes left but as we think that you know, we know that these kinds of crises will continue to happen and How What might it look like for the state of Vermont to be better prepared to respond to flooding events like this and do you see the state You know being able to respond to flooding differently in the future and what might what might that look like Well, I think this is where I wish the legislature was coming back in when you know, things are still so fresh and people have literal firsthand experience of understanding how it impacted our agriculture community how it's impacting You know communities again like Berry which it wasn't just where the rivers were It's like the mudslides and the landslides from this the topography of Vermont And that impacts, you know all sorts of parts of the infrastructure of the state not just housing or businesses, but trails and You know just infrastructure of towns and whatnot So I think we need to have like a really deep dive in holistic understanding So we don't come out at piecemeal because I think when we come out at piecemeal then Just going back a little bit to what we discussed before certain things come to the table quickly and Quickly and sort of get prioritized over others like the business relief came through quick and fast And again nothing against business relief. It's very important But other pieces which might be more complicated like housing and meeting people's basic needs and figuring out connection with all those Unhoused folks who were also impacted by the flood and even understanding municipalities needs All those different pieces if we do it in piecemeal I think we kind of lose the the inter inter dependency of all those pieces to make sure we have strong and Resilient communities in the face of the next natural disaster So I think it's it's a it's a really It really illustrates how complicated climate change is and how this is not just a matter of thinking through you know changes to transportation policy or You know how much we added for tax for gas to get people to you know stop using single Single-use vehicles and whatnot single-person vehicles But it just shows you how costly this is going to be if we still if we just go at it in a piecemeal way So I hope that the legislature can really kind of have multi-committee hearings because of how overlapped all these issues are and Hopefully the administration come to the table too as a true partner of figuring out Some really bigger more innovative ways we have to think to restructure our priorities Representative Emma Mulvaney Stanek from Burlington. Thank you so much for joining us and talking about the flooding response today Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me awesome, and thank you for tuning in to under the dome from town meeting TV your coverage of Vermont's Legislative session and Legislature outside of the session We appreciate you joining us and tuning in you can find other episodes of town of under the dome on cctv.org and We look forward to seeing you again soon. Have a great day