 and we have the CEO and founder of Ledger Domain, Ben Taylor here today, who is going to give his presentation on XATP and as a product of Ledger Domain. And please, Ben, take it away. Fantastic, thanks very much. And I appreciate that introduction, Mike. What we're gonna talk about today are the three projects that we've worked on that are publicly known about. The last one, XATP is still in stealth mode. And I see some of our partners, like Mike Carrhoff on the line. We're just gonna talk about that from a sort of satellite view level about sort of the things that we're trying to achieve. And then once we come out completely and we're done with our white paper and everything that Mike's working on with Alex, we're gonna be able to talk about that. But I think that for today, what I'd like to make sure we cover is what within the Hyperledger universe makes healthcare a challenge? What's important? What's going on there? What are some of the new features that people are talking about? And the goal is to give something back to the Hyperledger community as people think about their own challenges and how they might solve them for themselves. For those of you that have followed this area carefully, we gave a talk at the beginning of this year to the supply chain SIG. And then we also, with Marta's help, gave a chat at the Global Forum. Those are available. And Alex can put those into the chat for people that are interested in drilling down on kit chain and ruin chain, which are a little bit more focused on each of those areas. But let's just talk a little bit about what makes healthcare a challenge. First of all, I think that privacy has become a third rail issue here in America and around the world. And we've always had HIPAA here, which is a relatively weak privacy law, but in Europe, they pass GDPR, which is a much stronger privacy law. And then in California, we just passed the second and Sterner privacy law, probably the toughest in the world. And that did pass earlier this month. So we're really on a push here to make privacy preservation a critical part of every blockchain system. But in healthcare, there's broad agreement that that has to be done. The one tricky part that I would point out to everybody is that there is no global regulator. So the FDA is a terrific regulatory group here in the US that regulates the US interests, but again, they don't necessarily have the ability to influence other countries. And so therefore now that we've globalized our supply chain, we've got to make sure that we're respectful of people's privacy outside the US. And of course, many, many European visitors come to the US to get healthcare and we have to respect their rights as well. Second thing is healthcare data science is a morphing huge and dynamic area. Obviously we're born with this enormous genomic profile that we all have, but everybody's having constantly adjusted an immunological data. We're gonna hopefully all of us present are gonna have new immunological data as we get our vaccines in the first quarter, knock on wood. And so we're talking about a ton of data for each and every one of us. The next thing that's critical to healthcare or role-based privileges, obviously you only want your doctor or your nurse to see certain information, but at the same time, it's just as important that the FedEx driver is able to get the drugs from the manufacturer to the wholesaler and he or her, she needs to find out what they need to find out. Fourth point that I would make is that the supply chain abstractions in healthcare are tricky. Many people know that blockchain and supply chain don't go together very easily. It's not a simple thing to do. In the healthcare area, it's compounded by the fact that you don't necessarily want everybody to know what's going on at every step. People want the dev data confidentiality, but in addition, there's many things that you wouldn't want people to know you don't need for your DHL driver to know that he's carrying OxyContin. And at the same time, he needs to understand what risks he's got to manage. The fifth point that I'll talk about is exception handling for ground truth in fully digital blockchains like Bitcoin. The truth is in the chain. It is a digital system. And if someone gets done under the pizza that they bought with their Bitcoin, it's tough. The Bitcoin is what is the permanent record. But in healthcare, obviously the ground truth lies with the patient and with the drug. And so even if somebody can hack a blockchain at the end of the day, if the bottle of pills is behind the counter at the Walmart pharmacy, it's not as if I can walk into the store and say, hey, here's my blockchain record that says that that's my bottle of pills. I'm quite certain that the Walmart pharmacist is not going to hand that bottle of pills across the counter. In fact, he's gonna wanna make sure that the blockchain gets adjusted to reflect that. He needs to be able to report this to the relevant authority at Walmart so they can escalate it appropriately. Privacy conserving hooks are very important. All of us have read about the surveillance economy. And all of us are well aware that we sort of trade, make a trade when we participate in things like Facebook and that Facebook can open up a back door and get a lot of information on us and share and sell it. But in the healthcare world, that's not kosher. But what you do wanna be able to have are the hooks that enabled you to send out notifications to people and to do your machine learning on an anonymized basis. The seventh thing I would highlight is identity authentication. In the financial services world, we typically call this Know Your Customer or KYC. This is now getting into the healthcare area probably 15 years late, but nonetheless, it's very critical and that's part of what XATP is all about. But for those of you that have studied this topic outside of healthcare and you think of it as KYC, I would tell you that it's just an extended KYC concept. So typically KYC is a one layer concept. So if I'm a hedge fund manager and I'm bringing in a new partner, I have to do the KYC and the OFAC check. And in turn, I have to represent to my prime broker that I have accomplished that. In this case, there's a look through process where you might not ever ever done business with a dispenser and you wanna find out something from a manufacturer, you have to be able to show them, and this is the next point, with a credentialed message that you're a legit person and that you are part of the community and you're by law and under statute one of the five privileged classes to participate that they call ATPs. So the punchline here is that move fast and break things doesn't really apply to humans and healthcare and that you've got to be careful, you've got to do your testing, you got to do your validation and you got to be aware of all of these issues, let's see. So this is ledger domain, we focus on the healthcare vertical, we primarily build on top of hyperledger fabric and are a longtime member of the hyperledger. We're also members of PDG in the GS1 healthcare initiative and we do work both on the clinical supply side with players like Pfizer, IQV, Merck, GSK, Thermo Fisher and Biogen, which has been a terrific partner and that's where you're doing a clinical study. What's important about those things is that you're effectively trying to test something out like a vaccine and in that case you would test out the live vaccine versus salt water in a syringe, half people getting each and you have to keep track in a blinded way neither the doctor nor the patient is supposed to know who got what vaccine and then you can test these things out and see who got sick. In terms of the commercial supply side, the FDA encouraged us about a year and a half ago to take a look at that and that we did that work with UCLA again in Biogen and that's in a peer review journal that you can look up. So let's talk about the clinical supply side first and if you can't hear the sound, please speak up. Hi, Jen Cologne from UCLA Health here. Chester Jesus and I were pleased to serve on the working group to share a site's perspective on blockchain's potential benefits to the clinical supply chain. Under Chad and Imran's leadership, we worked as a team to demonstrate a simple use case that reduces slight burden while enhancing data integrity. UCLA currently supports about 700 active studies from over 100 sponsors, most with our own proprietary systems, since it's impossible and insecure to install and train 300 pharmacists on all of these systems, we're forced to fall back on paper documentation but with a secure collaborative blockchain system, we can give your medicines the care they require and get them to the patients who need them. Now let's turn it over to Victor from Ledger Domeen. Thanks, Jen. Today we're going to hitchhike a ride with Chad as he sends a shipment notification to Jen at UCLA. For the pilot program, messages with simulated data were prepared for testers to send. In a real world application, these XML messages will be created by the shippers leveraging existing systems. As the message is uploaded to Chad's assigned lockbox on an encrypted server, an authentication hash is generated and sealed into the blockchain. So it's impossible for the document to be secretly altered or falsified. All of this is handled by Ledger Domeen's salvage server. Chad can also share the message with a third party who has visibility into the shipping status but can't make changes to it. Over on Jen's phone, she receives a notification that the shipment is on its way to UCLA. Opening the message, she can see details about the shipment. Once the shipment arrives, she hits the check mark to confirm receipt. Back on Chad's phone, we see that Jen has received the shipment. By harnessing the power of blockchain, KitChain makes it possible to upload, share and control access to messages with confidence all in a way that's secure and unforgivable. Today's KitChain pilot shows you advanced shipment notices and proofs of delivery going to the right stakeholders in real time. With GS1's new barcodes and role-based privileges, the next generation of KitChain will source messages from multiple systems and securely route them to the people and systems that need them across the clinical supply ecosystem. Hi, Jen Cologne from East... So again, just to summarize what you saw, this isn't often talked about. I don't think in the hyperledger forums. The role-based privileges are really a terrific feature of hyperledger fabric. We use those extensively to manage these roles. And in the case of the clinical supply area, you'll see here that we're typically looking at maybe a hundred overall process flows. This is a master order process. You can see the physical and the data flows and the number of roles. And again, it's very critical that you blind all this information to people that don't need to see it so that they can't tell people. And as we move in this post-COVID world to direct to patient clinical trials, where if Marta participates in a trial, we'll mail the drugs directly to her house. And maybe she would be visited by a nurse there that they would again continue to be blinded, but they would know how to work with them. I'm gonna switch gears now and talk about the commercial side where we had Bruin Chain looking at the DSCSA objectives and the idea that UCLA had was to focus on that last mile. You'll see it's inside the box here from the technician who's at the loading dock through to the practitioner. And to assist those colleagues in performing robust checks, which means that they were gonna try during this process to look at one drug carefully and check every single one. I would notice this sidebar that what we found was that the typical drug package was looked at by a UCLA colleague 99 times during the course of the week. So it was really amazing how often and how careful they were with this process. Nable them to flag double counts and surface suspect transactions and enforce ground truth with exception handling. So if they thought something was not right, they could escalate it eventually to the FDA. But again, we don't want individual pharmacists flooding the FDA with a lot of questions and worries. It gets routed through their managers as an appropriate. So it's the idea to have private and escalating notifications. And again, the idea was to provide a real-time inventory and quarantine at the refrigerator level. So inventory, that means every 50 milliseconds. There was an update. Quarantine means that there was an ability to hold back drugs until all of the DSCSA checks had been done. Selected by the FDA for the DSCSA Pilot Project Program, UCLA Health and Ledger Domain joined forces to create BruinChain, a blockchain-based solution designed to track and trace changes in drug custody for mandated DSCSA checks and interoperate with trading partners. From the receiving bay to patient administration, caregivers scan the drug's unique 2D barcode using the BruinChain mobile app. This makes it possible to track the drug through the pharmacy at the stock room level with every transaction logged on the blockchain. During its journey, the drug passes a series of checks until it's administered to the patient. BruinChain is also designed for exception handling. Under DSCSA and GS1 requirements, each barcode contains important information about the drug. When caregivers scan the barcode, this information is automatically extracted. New barcodes are routed to a trading partner for verification, and the drug is held back from being administered. At any time, the prescriber can view the progress of the drug through the pharmacy into the clinic. The trading partner can either verify the drug or indicate that there is a problem, such as a potential counterfeit. Trading partners can be provided with a real-time data stream on where their drug is when that unit has been dispensed and even administered. If a drug is found to be suspect at any point, it is stickered and physically quarantined. If human review reveals a high risk of illegitimacy, BruinChain provides all the data needed to notify the FDA and trading partners. If the drug is verified as authentic, the prescriber gets a green light and can now administer with confidence. Beneath the surface, BruinChain passes messages and tracks changes in custody between six different roles. By combining blockchain with commercial off-the-shelf technology, BruinChain makes it possible to track and verify drugs in a busy hospital or neighborhood pharmacy. With BruinChain, doctors and pharmacists have a powerful new tool, helping them in their mission to get the right drugs to the people who need them, selected by them. So again, to summarize what we were looking at, we talked initially about the happy path where we're verifying with the manufacturer directly. And in this case, it was Biogen in Switzerland, but we had the ability to talk all these things. The FDA was mostly interested in what we would call the SAD path. And the idea with the SAD path is you've got four important checks and if they're failing a check, then it's quarantined while you're checking. You can see that the doctor is not able to administer, it's able to move, we're able to move the drug through those five steps, but he won't administer until all the checks have been done. And then the idea is we automatically generate what we call a trouble ticket or a 3911 flow after the form at FDA, where we have all the information ready to go and then you can take a picture of the damaged item and report it to the appropriate person. So that's the story on the first five or six things we talked about upfront, but now we have this big question is how do we onboard and authenticate the entire community? And so obviously we're all accustomed to these older systems. I like to talk about them as the janitor's key ring, we probably all went to school and the janitor had this incredible key ring where he could get into any classroom, the principal's office, any filing cabinet, and you were really relying on that one guy to be completely honest and never lose his keys and what if he got sick and what if somebody stole them? Well, you were in a lot of hot water. And by the same token, that's what most people do, we call this the death star model, where big companies in the Fortune 500 have these sort of leaky firewall models where again, the system administrator can get in and touch everything and it's very dangerous. There's a reason why the federal government sets up these single points of failure and never reports out an audit as to whether they've had a pen test or somebody's gotten in and messed around. They don't want to admit how problematical these things are. And so essentially this old system of tin can telephones is still supporting most of these important supply chains and it's a very sad state of affairs considering the fact that this modern technology is available but we don't want to make the same mistakes that the school did when they gave the janitor that key ring. And so obviously what we want to do as we onboard and authenticate this in community is to make good on what we call our lights out promise. And that is that let's remain or anybody who's hosting a hyper ledger community the best practice is not to be able to look at the data not to be able to look at the private storage not to be able to look at the authenticating information for new members so that you can't sneak around and open these keys with yourself. So let's talk a little bit about what we're doing. What we wanted to do with XATP is to work with a big group of people like 10 count consulting and some of the other people in the industry to try to move fast and break things. And hopefully you've seen this episode with Tesla but this was the spirit of it. Do you try to break this glass please? Yeah. Sure? Yeah. So essentially then the goal is to enable all 250, 350,000 ATPs to get onto the system to get onto the system to hold their own keys and to manage that process. And the idea is that we've talked about there's depending on how you look at it five or six classes of ATP you've got manufacturers, wholesalers, large dispensers you've obviously got combined entities like Walmart that are combining several of these classes together. But the idea is to build around what we call trust triplets where each person, each ATP has a personal signatory they have enterprise admin and an external validator. And the idea is that you're supporting a segregation of duties model those of you from the financial world. Remember that in accounting that the controller counts the internal audit audits and external audit samples to try to make sure that everything is done properly and that's essentially how we would do that. As I said, we're currently piloting this project to sort of figure out exactly how it's gonna work. And then we would hope by the end of this year to have an MVP and be able to scale in the new year. So what are we looking at here? The idea is that the serial number master database would have all the real drugs in their SAP ATP or their tracelink or something inside their four walls. And the idea would be that an XATP member would scan the barcode, they'd be able to request a verification but the manufacturer would go into the database to try to understand whether they're credentialed or not. So this credentialing process is critical because you can begin this KYC, know your customer, know your trading partner. And again, this person didn't necessarily buy this drug from the manufacturer. They make the verification request, it's verified. They can then produce this verification certificate to another ATP who can check that report online. This can accompany the drug. And then you know that you've got full supply chain assurance. In this case, only one XATP member had to push the button and figure out how this worked. Coming back to this issue of how do we organize and use Hyperledger Fabric to drive this scalable and secure architecture. What we do is we basically leverage Hyperledger's certificate cascade where you can subdivide the certificate authority. So even if there's a master CA here that's run by say ledger domain or somebody else, maybe it's a nonprofit organization, they're then hyping it off. Maybe Walmart would run their own hosted org, prompt their key creation for each of their pharmacists, but they would hold their own CA. If you were a smaller company, you might partition off like a medium-sized drug company. You might partition off a small piece of the CA to let them manage their keys. And then what's cool about this, we've talked about this in the past with this miraculous model that we have, is we onboard the data with a relational database interrupt that we call miraculous. So it essentially, instead of having the manufacturer enter all of their drugs onto the Hyperledger blockchain, we basically let the first point of contact fish them out in a secure manner. So to summarize where we are then on these breakthrough features, supporting healthcare and leveraging Hyperledger Fabric and other Hyperledger tools, Kit Chain, we talked about private and escalating notifications, having private storage. We originally used the plain vanilla Hyperledger Fabric, private storage. We've now migrated that to a Minio-based approach. And we also there nailed the data science. In Bruin Chain, we really focused on these role-based applications, adding 11 layers of supply chain abstraction on top of Hyperledger Fabric, managing this exception handling and providing the deep learning hooks that we talk about. In XATP, which we'll be talking about more openly with the general public soon, we're leveraging Hyperledger Fabric for credential messaging, automated onboarding, having members hold their own key pairs, which may be done by other Hyperledger Fabric people, but it's the first we know of it. And these trust triplet models where we enable us to continue to make good on the promise of a lights out experience for people that wanna leverage a Hyperledger Fabric community. And with that, Mike, do we have time for questions? Can we open it up? This is absolutely time for questions. So thank you very much for the presentation. We have a chat question on here from Erica and we'll open up to anyone for an open forum. She asked Erica, if you wanted to ask your question to Ben directly for free to go ahead. Yeah, I was curious about the solution where the prescribers are scanning the products and wondering if that's actually been presented to the people doing it, like pharmacists and prescribers, because I'm a pharmacist and it's such a busy workflow in a community pharmacy and a hospital. I just, it seems like it'd be really overwhelming to have this extra step. I was just curious what people thought of that. Yeah, so that's a great question. And I think it's an important question. When we presented to the FDA, we specifically asked them to comment on the expectations of pharmacists under DSCSA. And what UCLA's opinion was that was offered to the FDA was that they felt that there was a lot of value in doing this for opiates and for specialty pharma. But for certain everyday items, one wondered whether it was necessary to aggressively verify. Please talk to the FDA about this with opinions. And so Erica, we have not yet seen guidance on what frequency the expectations are. I think you're right. I think that in the community pharmacists, they're gonna feel quite put upon to scan every saleable unit. But we'll have to see how that works out. So again, as a software vendor and as a hyperledger member, our job is to provide the functionality, not specify how often people do it. But I think what we're gonna be seeing over the next three years as we see the full implementation is exactly how much compliance people are expecting. The related question is how much bad drug is really out there? That's another open question that people don't know the answer to. We've seen ideas that maybe 15 to 17% of prescriptions are not properly filled. Either the drug is expired or it's the wrong drug or there's some other confusion. Very hard to say, but I agree with you. There's many concerns on the part of all the stakeholders on how much this is gonna cost. And if you look at our paper, we've worked with UCLA to articulate exactly what we thought the costs were. The final thing I'll add is we did ask that there be a bottle bill and that pharmacists get a 10 cent rebate on everything that they scan. And we'll see if the FDA signs up for that or not. Wow, okay, yeah, that's a great answer. Thank you. Any other questions from the group? I'm actually curious, so give me a second. I wrote down something, just a second, yeah. So within your scalable infrastructure or you describe about the app holds keys for public credential and NBC lookup directories, have you thought about creative way? So this is making it a certificate authority. Have you ever thought of creative ways to make it a patient mediated type of exchange of holding or maintaining data through public key, cryptography and how you'd be able to manage or assess that? Yeah, so to your point, let's unpack that. It's a great question. Let's unpack it into two separate questions. So on PKI, we're using all standard PKI and in our minds, we often say that hyperledger fabric and blockchain in general is old wine and new bottles. And so we're using relatively standard tools to achieve this. It's just a reorganization of standard PKI tools into something that's a little bit more secure and modern. And so, yes, the keys in this case in our test are currently being held on Apple's key chain. We would like at some point to consider moving to Apple's secure enclave or something similar like Intel SGX. And then over time, when we feel that technology is a little mature, we might move to a did-based approach. Either way, the challenge with dids and everything else, and you take a large organization, whether it's a Walmart, CVS, anybody like that, they're gonna wanna have control over their employees. So it's not just enough to know that the PIC is in the paperwork that is to say the pharmacist in charge of a pharmacy is listed at the state level, but he's also still in the good graces of his current employer. And so what's nice is that with this trust triplet that CVS or Walgreens can brick the phone, right? And block the person from doing their job because they're no longer employed there. But by the same token, when the pharmacist in charge leaves the firm, he can unplug and erase his record of having been there. And so to your point, yes, all of these tools in our minds, and part of the reason we're highlighting them today is we think they're very, very relevant for patient-level information. Much of the patient-level information has bigger files. Obviously this is 14 small data fields, not a full genome, but I think that over time, we're gonna see more and more. We have been working with a number of players on COVID response. Some of the COVID response requests that have come in have been for up to 43 million people. And so of course, you wanna be able to say that you can scale to those levels. And that's exactly what this is meant to do. Great question. But just to one clarifier, Mike, DSCSA only goes to the dispenser legally. And so it would require additional regulation to push this initiative on this basis out to the patient. Thank you for clarifying. Any other questions from the group? I do have more to toss around if needed. Are you aware of the TEFCA working group, the ONC TEFCA working group then? I've heard about it. Certainly don't consider myself an expert. Yes. So for everyone else, I may not be aware, sorry for the background, but TEFCA stands for Trusted Execution Framework and Common Agreements. And within there, they are looking to create interoperability methods so that they could use certificate authorities to authenticate and give patients the ability to adhere to the 21st Century Cures Act, which now isn't going to truly be relevant for a number of years. How do you see what you're doing within certificate authorities kind of opening up? And you mentioned about dids in particular, what are some of the drawbacks and challenges of dids that may need to be rectified in order for them to be used in these type of interoperable formats that are coming across not only federal entities, but in everyday practices? Yeah, so in our minds, I would ask that we all sort of string the pearls in the following way, if you can just walk through the thought experiment with me. What I would say is that in our minds, what our customers are looking for is responsible data stewardship and not an anarchy model. And so in the did space, those are useful individual tools, but they have a more of an anarchistic model as a standalone. And so if you're using them as to hook into a CA, that's great. And so for us, the way that we're organizing our thoughts is that say for medical records, I can understand why there are people in the blockchain community that would wanna go in and have total control of their medical record and where they would wanna go in and erase the fact that they had COVID or erase their last STD because it's their medical record, why can't they change it? But I don't think that that's where the puck is really going. It's more about protecting your privacy and making sure that the stewardship is appropriate and that your data stewards, meaning if you're a patient at UCLA Health, that they're managing your data in a way that's appropriate to your rights and that they're sharing it out appropriately and that they're managing it in a way that everybody can feel good about. It's not so much just sort of turning over the record and letting you run with it. And so that's where this role-based model is so important. So if you think about this XATV model, it's pluggable and unpluggable. So if you're an employee of a large pharmaceutical chain, you can unplug, but they still have an obligation to keep those records for five years on the transactions that you signed off on. But you can unplug your driver's license from that going forward. So and the same thing on the medical record side, the idea is that you wanna be able to participate in clinical study or other sorts of deep learning. You want the hooks there, but you want it to be anonymized appropriately. And if you wanna move on to another facility, you can unplug from that, replug or change your rights. But the idea is to manage the privileges, not necessarily to sort of unplug from everything and sort of move into an anarchistic model. So for us, when we're thinking about dids, we're thinking about how to hook them in to an existing certificate cascade or a new certificate cascade that we can help the community drive on a lights out basis and achieve their privacy objectives. Did that answer your question? It definitely did. Cause you mentioned about the drawbacks of the term anarchist isn't bad, right? I mean, I find that there's value into that because I personally, and 99.9% of folks with the medical records probably don't want to have to do the data analyzing, the holding of large computational information of our records, right? That's why we have the stewards in place. So that's very clear on the drawbacks onto that. There are some, I'm kind of going off kilter a little bit so I apologize. There are some solutions out there that are claiming to create an NFT type model. And for those that may not be familiar with NFTs are non-fungible tokens of data information that's associated to your health and your biology, which could be genomic data, et cetera. And they're saying that one NFT could then be more, mine like McCoy, genomic NFT could be more valuable and selling that on a marketplace and then being able to have a marketplace be able to identify, to take in my genomes for potential clinical studies or research, or to evaluate mass groups of people and individuals. What is your take on marketplaces of information that are associated to care? Do you believe that there are maybe certificate authorities or companies that manage the rights and information in this data that wants to create marketplaces like that? Or is that just totally not feasible? And do you believe there's a model for that? I mean, I think there is a model for these things. And I think that Facebook has proven that aggregates can be valuable. My guess as a personal conjecture is that for most people, your medical record is worth no more than 20 bucks. If you have a rare disease, there's somebody who's gonna make a lot of money off of your care. And so therefore you're a valuable lead to them. And so if you're about to come down with kidney failure or something like that, somebody is gonna be interested in learning about that. I have a feeling, and I mentioned my son for instance, I think if you have a health problem in your family, your goal is not to monetize it, it's to cure it, right? And so I understand that there's a class of people in the Silicon Valley universe that are always thinking about monetizing things. But I think if you're the parent of a sick child, your primary focus is on getting them better, not on getting a free toaster. That is totally fair. And I think also the part of it is people with diseases that they're very much going to health systems often to help cure their ailments, part of the thinking of having an NFT type of model so that they can mitigate the costs of them doing all, and using all these services that for certain jurisdictions of the government or your national landscape makes you charge X amount of money for that type of service. And so for chronic conditions, et cetera. But yeah, no, it's a very, because at the end of the day, we just wanna be able to motivate others to want to take in this data information to help create faster cures, faster miracles, et cetera. Totally. And I think, Mike, that this COVID situation is also an opportunity for us to hold some of these concepts up to the light and see what works for people. I mean, clearly people have been willing to give up a little bit of safety, margin of safety to get drugs out faster and vaccines out faster. Clearly people are willing to give up a little privacy in order to do contact tracing. And so, in our minds, this is all about achieving a balance. And I think what's great about this forum and these other ideas that you're talking about is that all of these fresh ideas will compete in the marketplace for ideas. And I think we'll come to center and as a group, find the right answer for everybody. It's a learning process. I think that just as these centralized models made sense to people in the past and now we see them as a single point of failure, I think we'll continue to make progress. And again, I think all of these ideas are competing for oxygen and we'll have to see over the next year with COVID and the years that follow with personalized medicine, which ones really work for people. But it's an exciting time to be engaged in healthcare and think about all these new things that are happening and it's amazing to see these vaccines move so quickly. Hopefully they'll be as safe as we all imagine they can be. And it's a terrific time to again, hold these fresh ideas up to the light. Jack Carr, you had a question and thank you for your response, Ben. Jack Carr, you mentioned a question on chat and then yeah, there you go. You're on mute, my friend. You're on mute if you can hear me, so. You're on mute, there we go. I still can't hear you unfortunately. Do you have a specific mic or AirPods or something that are on? Can't hear you yet. Well, I'm gonna answer the question he's posed or talk of those on. So he's talking about two things and his thing which is asynchronous real time and interoperability. So on the interoperability side, there's been a lot of discussion on blockchain to blockchain interoperability. In all honesty, we've been focusing a lot more on relational to blockchain interoperability and we've designed a number of novel approaches and we've leveraged GRPC type approaches when we can. In our public pilots, we typically focus for those of you that are looking more carefully on using fake data and human readable messages so we can test those things out. In the real world, obviously it's real data and more often machine to machine. We're big fans of GRPC, but we're also big fans of security overlays to tighten up these APIs. We feel like the API models can be a little insecure. In the US, we do not typically have to rely on asynchronous technologies. Fortunately, almost everybody is up and running on a semi-synchronous model. The big thing, if you wanna call it that and you saw this in the Bruin chain thing is that quite often it does take time for the drug company to respond on verification. In this day and age, they're not quite up to high availability yet there in the verification router services. And so that's why we built in these layers where you can continue to move the drug through the UCLA system and only have to worry about verification at the last step. So we're currently running hyperledger fabric on a 50 millisecond latency. And then we generally see round trip latencies of about 200 milliseconds. So again, for pharmacy, that's pretty manageable. I think Erica's points were well taken and you will see it in our paper. If the pharmacist has to scan it a second time because they had to put it down and wait, it's very disruptive to their workflow. We quoted a 17 cent disruption in terms of time. Erica might value her time more, but that was our best guess if you can look at our calculations. And FDA is well aware of that. And so to move towards truly real time responses, which I'd call in the 250 millisecond timeframe, that's what's gonna be required to really not disrupt the pharmacist workflow. Hopefully that answered your question, Jayakar, or anyone else? Well, Mike, thanks very much. This has been awesome. I appreciate the time. Congratulations on your new role. And is any of the final questions you have before we sign off or thoughts? Nothing else from me, nothing else from me at all. I appreciate you taking it out or to speak to our group and for the engaging session. Yeah, just for everyone's notice, we are going to meet in two more weeks. We potentially have a guest speaker. I haven't got them to qualify yes yet, but we may have another guest presentation coming up on, oh goodness, what is that date in two weeks? It is the 10th of, or sorry, the 9th of December. So I will be sending out that information by this week and thank you all for coming. Any other questions about the group or things for Ben or other things within the healthcare special interest group? Thanks very much. Thank you, everyone. Have a good day and happy Thanksgiving for our United States friends. You too. Bye, everyone. Bye. Bye. Bye, thank you. Happy Thanksgiving, Mike. Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. I'll marty you too kind from across the pond. Here's happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving.