 It is the top of the hour. So let's begin. Let me welcome you Let me welcome everybody to this week's future Transform. My name is Brian Alexander I'm the forum's host creator and chief cat herder And I'll be your guide to the next hour of conversation about the future of higher education I am absolutely delighted to host sunny Remus. Well me for several reasons One is that he is the president of a major accrediting body We haven't really talked about accrediting very much in the forum in fact in higher education accrediting agencies are usually kind of like dark matter They they don't really appear publicly, but they influence all kinds of stuff. They're incredibly important So I want him to be here to help us understand what accrediting agencies do and how they are reshaping higher education Second reason I wanted to bring him on board is because he's an amazing person. He's an absolute delight This is the best picture of an accreditor I've ever seen in human history And I'm just delighted to bring him on board So let me welcome sunny Remus. Well me coming to us from a bit west of here I asked people to introduce themselves in all kinds of ways and I shared with everybody your extraordinary brilliant background Your academic work your work at the USDA but on the program I'd like to ask people a different question to introduce themselves, which is when you look ahead for the next 12 months What are you going to be working on the most? What's going to be top of mind? What are the biggest projects and ideas for you? Oh? Wow, the top of mind is going to be making sure That we do everything with grace and kindness that you know We have all these requirements and all these deadlines and things like that But we also have to be cognizant that the institutions that we support in the the accreditation realm They've got their own challenges and you know, I'm sure we're going to talk about some of those challenges in just a little bit And just yesterday day before yesterday had a conversation with our tribal colleges and Alaska native survey colleges and and there are some things that are happening there on their campuses that Are you know even more challenging? And so we've got to do everything we do as an accreditor over the next many months through this COVID pandemic and beyond I think there's going to be beyond With a grace and kindness and remember that we need to put our shoe ourselves in their shoes in In how we help support them so that that's top of mind for me and for my colleagues as well my staff as well I understand and I appreciate that a great deal. It sounds like Your accreditation agency has an awful lot of work ahead Friends if you're new to the future transform, let me just quickly explain I'm going to ask President Remus for me a couple of questions But the forum is a place for you to ask your questions So again, remember there's two buttons the bottom of the screen that raised hand and that question mark This is a great time to ask questions So if you have questions right now and a couple of you already sent me some this is a good time to do that but also as we talk as topics come up and Please feel free to ask your questions and believe me. This is a complicated subject It's going to cross a number of domains everything from institutional structures to Curriculum to pedagogy to policy to finance so don't at all feel nervous about asking a question This is a this is just the place for you ask this questions So my first question for you Really is Looking at higher education in this atmosphere of crisis And it's not just this year's crisis. That's also ongoing trends that you and I talked about before What is the main function of accrediting agencies? Well, you know, so the crisis there's always going to be some crisis that our institutions have to deal with and You know, if you look at the last let's say about 10 or 15 years There's been multiple crises that our institutions have had to deal with and there's always this underlying level of budget Challenges and things like that as well that every institution has to deal with and and from our perspective as an accreditor I mean, you know our marching orders come to us as you know from the the thorough government and the Department of Education so we're ones that interpret the regulations and then create our standards and Requirements and policies and things like that and apply it in the context of our institutions And so whether there's a crisis or not of whatever that crisis is whether it's a local crisis or a global crisis our institutions Still need to make sure that they're adhering to the standards They're adhering to the requirements and things like that and they're gonna make any changes on Campus because they have to deal with their particular crisis then they have to inform us and keep us aware of what's going on For example, let's say they're gonna be there their budget cuts that are going happening right now And we can get back into the COVID-19 pandemic a little bit deeper as well But let's say there are these budget cuts that are happening right now and an institution makes the decision But they're gonna go ahead and reduce their footprint you eliminate some of the programs Maybe shut down a college or a degree program or whatever They just can't make that unilateral decision saying that I'm gonna go ahead, you know I'm the president I'm the chief financial officer. I'm the provost want to make this decision It is a collaborative conversation that takes place But they got to bring us in as well In fact, they got to bring us in right at the outset to make sure that we're aware that they're gonna be doing this They have to submit to us what is referred to as a substantive change Proposal as to what that change is going to be and our focus really is what's the impact on those students If you decided on going ahead and shutting down the program or or reducing its footprint. I want to know What you're gonna do with the students that are currently in the program That's a critical part of it. So that's you know, some of the things that our institution need to be aware of and in their crises They come and go but they still need to be Mindful that they're keeping us from center. So what we the way we work and you know It's very similar with my other sister organizations as well is We have what we refer to as an accreditation liaison officer with at each of our campuses and and my own staff we have They are liaising with their institutions each one of my vice presidents has approximately about 40 institutions or so and they're in constant touch It's not like a one-and-done. Okay, once every seven years, we're checking with you or whatever my staff and me as well We're constantly engaged with our institutions and the accreditation liaison officers are also constantly engaged with us so there should be absolutely no surprises and we adhere to this principle of continuous process improvement by the way and In light of that sort of adherence to that continuous process improvement the intent is really to stay in touch There should be absolutely no surprises crises may come and go, but there should be zero surprises. That's the approach that we're using Just for a basic background on a given campus who normally is the primary point of contact with their creditor Yeah, so on the campus it is as I referred to we call them accreditation liaison officers and they typically report to the provost they typically work in the provost office and They may have a background in academics. They may have a background in institutional research They may have a so it's a sort of continuum, you know and academically They may have me, you know a professor have been a professor in engineering or a professor in math or psychology or whatever and They what what we look for in these accreditation liaison officers alos as we call them are certain characteristics But they must have have they must have that lived experience of having been an academic They must have that lived experience of some level of administrative responsibilities and administrative experiences and things like that as well and Absolutely, there's a requirement the president or the chancellor or the CEO of the college or the university appoints these alos They must be bought into this that is not like the alos sitting out there And then Brian you remember and some of your audience remember members as well And maybe that's the situation on campuses even today at some of those campuses is Accreditation sits out there in left field somehow Professors are doing their thing and then you know Letter goes from the accreditor saying oh y'all need to be ready for your accreditation coming up in the 2023 and The provost and the president say okay you alo or whatever counterpart go take care of it So they get all the data they put together the report It's totally divorced from the people that are the practitioners the boots on the ground Educating involved in the students and all that we in the last couple years since I came on board We've changed this whole thing completely We want our faculty to be engaged in this our staff to be engaged in our students to be engaged in it as well our focus by the way is Exclusively laser focused on student success and closing equity gaps And if that's the premise you got to have the people that are involved in helping make that happen that vision of student success And closing equity gaps happen They need to be involved in this as well and we're also very data and evidence informed So the president and the provost and the chief financial officer Etc. Need to be really really bonded to this and that's the approach that we end up using So the alo is a critically important part of it and and we offer them in a constant level of training and all that too As I said my staff Particularly my vice presidents they you know the Northwest Commission liaisons They are in constant touch, you know, they're on speed dial with those alos by the way well by the way for everybody who is Joining us right now or if you haven't been here before if you look in the bottom left edge of the screen You should see a kind of tan or yellow colored button that has that says NWCCU and that'll take you right to Sunday's organization the Northwest Commission on colleges and universities So if you'd like to learn more about the organization you can find out more there Thank you for that for that great answer I really appreciate that and I appreciate your laser focus on student success and equity Before I can ask more questions already the forum community is going full board so to begin with let me just Share this note from a longtime friend of the program Tom Hames He asks in what ways can accrediting bodies drive the kinds of systemic changes that the pandemic has exposed is being badly overdue Wow That's awesome. What a what a fantastic question and indeed we see this happening across our Institution that I you know I have conversations with my counterparts as well across America and and we see these disparities That the ugly disparities that we have in America that was already there at some level, you know And those disparities have come to the fore and then of course the events that occurred the horrific killing of George Floyd the pandemic all of this has brought up these incredible disparities that we've got and so It's gonna you know in our case. I cannot speak for my other counterparts, but in our case the Northwest Commission very specifically we had already set into motion, but we went through this iterative process of Updating and revising reviewing and revising our standards and things like that where we had eight standards before by the way We you know based on this iterative conversation we had input from thousands of people across our region and Nationally as well from think tanks and other places that we saw input from we held town hall conversations Etc. Etc. What should we we be focused on and at that time itself these disparities and other things start coming up cropping up as something that but the accreditor needs to be You know engaged in and that helps push the institutions as well to go ahead become much more meaningfully engaged You know, we've all been in the situation where You know, it's a check the box type of approach that we've used You know, for example affirmative action equal employment and things like that Yeah, I'm signed up to doing it But oftentimes again like the a low that are referred to there's some diversity officer someplace in some little bitty office someplace Yeah, go ahead and collect the data and send it off to the federal government or the state government or whatever That's requiring it, but it was not a fundamental buy-in to these things and that we're gonna make at a fundamental level these changes And things like that at all so our standards we revise it We only have two standards number one focused on students students students. In fact as we went around Having conversations like co-opted the Bill Clinton's famous statement from 1992 is the economy stupid stupid I started saying it's the students stupid and not just students But really and the other thing I would share with everybody one of my favorite all-time favorite statisticians jokes is you know, my heads in the oven my feet are in the freezer on average I'm okay and academia and everything we do looks at averages Right averages. Don't tell us the whole story these disparities that we've got Will never come up to the top if we're only looking at the average and you got to dig a lot deeper So we want disaggregated data We want to know the details and so that's how we approached it and So we're almost like We caught in quotes if I can use this term caught the wave as it were But the pandemic and the horrific killing of George Floyd and all Breonna Taylor and all the things that are have happened in America And the intense conversations were having my concern is that these conversations have taken place It's almost like out of sight out of mind, you know, yeah, we talked about it But let's move on right and I don't want us to be to do that And we're now offering, you know webinars and conversations and things like that That we're doing constantly about these topics. Of course, you know academic academics is really important You know, this is the advising the intrusive advising user technology for example this medium that we're using in zoom Everybody got on zoom, right? How do you go ahead create community? How do you go ahead and because students need to feel like they belong? we know that and How do you create this belonging here, right? And so we're bringing in, you know, various individuals that have these expertise is to help us think this through You know assessment and Persistence and graduation rates and things like that. We're looking at every one of those but those disparities that have popped up We're really helping trying to Make sure that our institutions are involved in those conversations. They're this front and center that they need to keep thinking about it as well That's it. Thank you Tom for the really really great question Tom has a genius for asking these kind of deep foundational questions and sunny. Thank you for answering it so deeply thoroughly and with passion This does bring up a question that another Another person asked me just get this they emailed us beforehand. They couldn't make it Which was a question about how an accrediting agency Works with different types of institutions and the person was wondering what is it? How do you handle the difference between say a small college and a large state institution? Again an excellent question and this came up in our surveys that we did in the town hall conversations we had etc in the listening sessions that we did as well and So if I'd encourage you know your audience to please go to our website If you've not already been there look at our standards There's a pull-down menu and you can go to the 2020 standards look at it and then compare it against the 2010 standards we've given both of them and The very first thing that you'll see in there is we honor your mission number one So we've got institutions that are you know everybody from a University of Washington well resource with 50,000 students to you know a an institution Tribal college in Montana like a little bighorn college or you know one of the other colleges that we've got with Significantly more challenging Resource issues much smaller maybe about two or three or four hundred students Etc. But they were unique mission and then we've got in between we've got community colleges And we have faith-based institutions. We've got Gonzaga University, which is a Catholic University Brigham Young University, which is a you know affiliated with the Mormon Church, etc. We've got to Absolutely honor their individual specific missions. That's the the first Statement that we made and then the reviewers and others that we bring in they are based on that context that Live reality that I like to use that term all the time so for we've been remiss You know for example for our tribal colleges which send people that had no background in tribal culture the spiritual growth that they need to be Helping students, you know inculcated in students as well. And so it's not just numbers numbers numbers You know, it's the very western sort of a scientific approach. We're gonna use numbers to look at this We're gonna use data. But what about the qualitative aspects of it? How do you measure it? In fact, we've got a young woman named Alana whore at one of our institutions Thompson Reverse University in Canada, which is by the way a first nations serving institution there up in Canada as well. She has taken on a project as part of her doctoral dissertation to come up with a way to Develop qualitative measures. We know the quantitative piece of it. By the way, we got funded by the Gates Foundation To help develop this this construct and capacity and infrastructure of our institution that we're working on that aspect of it as well particularly focused on the smaller institutions and So really going back to the comment that I made about we're gonna honor your mission The individuals that are gonna come and review you are going to be like institutions and they'll have had that lived experience. So if it's a You know faith-based institution We got to have people that come from the faith-based background as well as others It's not like, you know, you just want this echo chamber that's been created I'm gonna only listen to my own people and I'm doing great and all that So that's what we've done And that's different that we think is a way to make sure that we can work with the Very different institutions that we've got from community colleges So we support that we we work with about 163 universities and colleges We our universities all this serve about 1.2 million students of whom about 400 almost 400,000 our students that come from underserved communities underserved references that are communities Pell eligible Yada yada yada, you know, I got one college that I just spoke with the president yesterday Almost 80% of the students there are pillows Okay, it's a different context than you know, Gonzaga for example, right? These are the kinds of situations that we've got we got to take that into account and not just apply Okay, one size fits all we're just gonna do the same exact thing You know again as a creditor as I dare say and I didn't wasn't involved with this business previously by the way We had that sort of an attitude is up. I have a big stick in my hand. I'm gonna come in It's all about accountability and beat up money. The approach we're using is we're here to support our institutions We want to have you aspire To better and better that's the intent and we've also developed a risk-based Accreditation process as well We're going to be focusing on our students a primary institution that students that are at risk to be able to help them as well Well, thank you. Thank you. That's a great answer And thank you for the question to the questioner. I have to again if you're new to the forum You can see this is all about your questions and our guest responses We had a related question that came up. Let me bring this up Was And this comes from a brilliant brilliant consultant who asks does planning for 100% day one availability of accessible content Does that factor into accreditation? I need a little more explication on that. Okay, okay The question can be maybe rephrased Yeah, I can go in multiple different directions depending on the interpretation that I'm processing in my mind Go ahead. Please provide a little bit more explication. Okay, I can parse that. So to what extent is accessibility of content important for accreditation You're talking about The content itself right and Yeah, I mean, you know, these are all you know Our premise is it's the students stupid It's not closing equity gaps. It's some of these disparities that we've got and things like that. There's a you know, fantastic work that's going on You know, Kelly Hogan some of you might know she's at the University of North Carolina Really really fantastic work that she's doing these, you know intrusive approaches to teaching and things like that that she's the she and her colleague that Viji Saty have developed and and so You know, if the premise is the idea that it is the students That's where it starts from you got to figure out and then there are the you know different learning styles and Capacities, I mean look at the disparities we've got, you know Some kids as we've seen images they have to sit in a parking lot to have access to you know Wi-Fi and things like that. In fact my many of my rural community institution in my rural communities including my tribal colleges are saying We have no way to deliver Online content because you know Montana. These are you know vast Acreages vast areas and we have no connectivity. I mean America that in quotes invented the internet It's a shame on us that we've not come together on making available these sorts of things. So Going back to the student. How do you make sure that the access to that content and all that is You know done in a way that does address these disparities that we've got lack of access you know physically Technological access and things like that too and so that becomes an important part because we're focused on the outcomes The student learning outcomes are critically important assessment of things like that You won't have student learning outcomes by the way if you don't have you know courses and content and other things That are accessible taught, you know in a way that makes sense and you know today We've got any time any place learning modalities that we've got as well And I use the metaphor of our students today being like honeybees, you know, they're into optimal foraging They go to this institution that institution. They may take some courses here online They may be sitting on there, you know in quotes, but at another institution It's not like you know, they come here for four or six years or whatever and then leave No, that's not the model that we've got anymore And so that access of that content and all that and really going back to What's happening in the marketplace in quotes in terms of the I'm not talking with the educational marketplace, but the marketplace, you know more broadly for iPhones or technology or whatever else we've got The students want to sample it They want to know that the stuff that they're gonna get is going to work really really well And so our instructors or institutions need to really pay attention to those kinds of things and so from an accreditation perspective Since we're focused on the outcomes, you know, our Evaluate our evaluators for whom again we're offering lots and lots of training in on that too They're going to be paying attention to those aspects of it as well Thank you That's a that's a really really solid answer to a good question. I appreciate you wrangling with the question as well We have a few more questions queued up and Some of them are very technical and specific and some of them are fairly general So I'm going to start with a couple of the general ones and then we can plunge into the specific one Again friends, if you have any questions, you can see that President Arama Swami is happy to answer them so one of the general questions comes from Tom Huell's Tom if I mispronounced your name forgive me. I think it's Tom Huell's And or I'm sorry David Huell and David says that In his experience all too often faculty greet accreditation with fear and trembling What can be done to soften that fear or is it just him as everybody else besides David happy to welcome every accrediting agency? And if you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you as well, right? Well, you know when I was a faculty member as well back in, you know a few years ago This was like as I said earlier, you know, there's a disconnect that has been a disconnect between the accreditation process because there's some stuff to do with the federal government Because if I'm accredited and I can get money, you know, my students coming here can get the grants and you know financially and things like that And I can put up a shingles and I'm accredited but it's sitting out there and typically, you know, some you know The provost or somebody say you go do it and come back and tell me it's all done, right? That was the approach and I know this plus my wife used to be involved in this and she had seen this happening in real time You know helping with the accreditation process on campus is that we're at and Again, there's you know, we got to provide a value proposition Accreditation needs to provide a value proposition. There's more to it than check the boxes more to it than some bureaucratic, you know stuff that happens that has no connectivity We've got an institution where there was zero buy-in By the faculty they didn't want to hear anything about it. They don't want to hear anything about, you know Core competencies and assessment, you know, I'd walk around on campus and I say to and I've traveled quite a bit by the way Even now I do it, you know through this medium But I used to physically travel as well and I just randomly stop at the cafeteria or whatever and ask faculty members, you know questions and so if you ask You know faculty member. Hey, what's the accreditation? You know, you get the proverbial rolling of the eyes and then you ask you know, what's assessment? Oh, yeah, I assessed, you know Yeah, yeah, I give quizzes and exams and all that then you ask well What about do you know if your students are actually learning? Do you have some learning outcomes? Do you have you know? So I think we you know To paraphrase Pogo I've seen the enemy as me. I'm the enemy and As a crutter and I think really we've got to do everything we can to engage with the faculty and as we went through this Conversation of revising our standards and all that we articulated the idea that we want to make it a fully engaged Approach we want our institutional faculty and staff and students to be really really involved in it We just did a we just finished our what? Today, I think is the last of the days of our fall Virtual visits and I was in attendance as at a few of our virtual visits and I attended the faculty forums and the Student forums I kid you not and in last spring as well. We had so we had to make available to this institution I think like 700 spots for Zoom people to come in. Yeah. And so you can imagine there's a lot of you know, interest in things like that and students You know my gosh, you know, we had that this one is to do like but 150 in attendance and And so I think, you know, we got to provide that value proposition and all of us I mean, I think, you know, all of us involved in the interpretation business We need to be dealing with the the boots on the ground that are working with those Mines that are the outcomes that we want to look for Thank you for that answer. I appreciate the candor and I appreciate the openness David, thank you for the for the really good question We have another general question which comes to another friend of the program Raj Davis Saganam. Sorry, David Saganam From a Sunni old Westbury And he asks two related questions and I want to bring them up together one of them is During this pandemic is accreditation even relevant And positively speaking How are you adapting accreditation criteria and standards as a result of the pandemic? Yeah, so Dean Davis Saganam, thanks so much for that question I say that the accreditation And the the quality assurance And the accountability And those aspects of accreditation Are even more relevant today in the context of what I referred to earlier about the disparities that we're seeing Right as a result of the pandemic and then of course the horrific events that happen with Uh, George Floyd's death killing and and and the others as well And we needed any you know a lot more today than we've ever needed because you as the dean of a business school Or or the other you know faculty members or you know other folks that are here from academia You got to be able to go ahead and again you have to provide that value proposition to your Your students to your alumni to your uh parents and to your donors and others as well And accreditation Is not just a stamp of approval that you know, there's like the usda a stamp of approval on the cut of beef, you know It is that as well But really it is that internal motivation to make sure that your faculty your staff and others are all doing Absolutely the right thing So accreditation is not an outside thing coming in to do something But it should be internally motivated and whether you're in a in a pandemic or not The the the process of undertaking the self study that you do The process of this iterative mess between yourself and your accreditor And all of these help you really think of how am I going to do better at what I'm supposed to be doing? You know, uh, I tell you uh, it's not enough to think that well, you know I got a great job. I go in and teach and leave and that's that's the end of it No, you know for faculty again, we got to demonstrate the value proposition It's more than just going and standing there and lecturing or whatever that is that you're doing It is about for me the reason that I'm involved in this and Uh, Brian, you said that in my past life. I work for obama Uh, you know, heading the science agency within the department of agriculture for me my motivation That my internal motivation is to be able to change the human condition Most from a food perspective and from an education perspective Is a too critically important thing that can help address the human condition So for dean davis agaim and the others then You're addressing the human condition. That's the premise of what that way you need to go in And that's what needs to drive this not that because you know, somebody like me is coming around with a stick in my hand Or whatever, but it's internally motivated as well. So I think we need we really absolutely need it very much today The plastic approach, um, I've never heard an accreditor say that before trying to change the human condition On on twitter, you have a fan note from erica swain who says Northwest ccu has possibly the best alo training among the institutional creditors I know because I tried to mimic it at one of the others Um, nwccu suni and the crew at nwccu do some great work So, thank you very much for that. Appreciate it And well now these are the more general questions. Let's let's dive into a couple of the more specific and policy Ones, uh, we've learned from glenn mickey, uh, who said who asks Do you foresee the u.s secretary of education waving financial ratio requirements? All right, uh, mr. McGee I'll say this, you know, as you as you may know, uh, and I just mentioned it as well I worked in the federal government as well and I was a political appointee appointed by prime rome I then I finished out of the trump administration And I was taught that you want to pivot on a question that you have absolutely no idea about that's not in my lane And so I I would you know, I don't know, you know, I I couldn't answer that question Sorry, if you got some other questions, absolutely. I'll take it on but it's outside of my lane Okay, okay And glenn glenn, I know you have more questions. So please Fire off another one. Uh, we have a another very precise question coming from the awesome chris mackey Who asks let me put this up on the screen What do you see is the major points of uncertainty or lack of clarity still remaining? Regarding title four an accreditation of direct assessment time independent competency based learning programs I mean Okay So, uh, mr. Mackey, thank you, uh, and uh So we I think really, I mean you the word that you've got there right there at the before the parentheses clarity Or the lack thereof and that's the greatest challenge that we've got and I think you know, as you know Uh, the lack of movement On the higher education act being reauthorized despite all the conversations and you know The republicans tried the dental crats tried in the house in the senate All these things that have been going on and and there's not you know, there's not been, you know Much clarity that has come out of it. And I think you know really going back to the question that you asked Uh in regards to title four and cbl and things like that You know, that's why many many Entities like yours and the others are kind of you know in a car in a limbo and you know I I hope that the new congress coming in picks it up and provides some clarity, you know the The as you know, we went through this negotiated rule making and the neg regs as it's referred to That kicked into the year and actually, you know, july 1 of next year's when all these things become, you know In quotes law And we're you know trying to bring our policies and all that up to speed so that they're all aligned with it And even in those neg regs and you know, we've had multiple of those things That's that I've been released here in the very recent past including on distance education and things like that too Uh, again, you know, they've you know tightened up some things and and changed certain regs and all that You know, all of it is okay. We know we live by the rules that are you know Sent to us we play the you know the cards that we get and then we'll interpret and You know, why it's our institution and all that again in there as well There's been you know, really no clarity because title four it really ends up being you know congressional purview An absent congress doing something about it Uh, we're gonna struggle and we're gonna interpret each one has a different sort of an interpretation of this as well And and I think really for our nation It's a pretty significant challenge because in interpretation We're going to be misapplying these things as well So that's sort of a challenge that we've got though. We need to be very mindful of and I hope that You know the various entities that are involved in this enterprise and I you know, Brian if I may share this as well I always say that education is a contact sport And then engagement in Washington, DC is a contact sport But you've got to be involved in this, you know, it's not enough to again, you know, yeah Well, you know, I don't know if I have any role to play in this. What can one person do? You know, I'm going to teach my thing and go home and it don't bother me or anything like that But every one of us imagine, uh, we've got what? 20 million college age students, I believe in America and And then all the the faculty and staff that go with it And you know when we if you can get them Imagine the power that education has to be able to make things happen and and I think you know, uh, it is Reflective of this non-engagement And you know this contact sport that uh, there really needs to happen as well And people I've got to be a lot more, you know, aware of and becoming engaged I mean, we've seen that happening, you know, you know a couple of days ago In the last few weeks with the elections and things like that as well I hope that that energy that's there gets, you know translated into particularly amongst our You know students and young people we're all very engaged as we've seen in our faculty and staff and others as well To to convey this sense to folks on Capitol Hill. Now we need things to be fixed Well, thank you. I like the metaphor of a contact sport here, which I think is uh, very very Very strong and thank you for the excellent question Chris. I really appreciate this We have another fairly technical question from the excellent charles finley at northeastern And charles asks about badges Well with many learners seeking badges and certificates, will the accredited agencies play a role? Or will there be other independent agencies? Okay, I'm starting to click on my mute button. Um, so yes, the short answer is yes We are engaged in it. We're involved in it along with competency based education and other things as well And a number of our institutions, I mean already, you know back in the course the good old days Many of our institutions started offering certificate programs professional masters degrees and other, you know micro credentials and badges and not badges You know these this is all new terminology that's come into play here Uh, it's sort of the the influence of the information technology World that we live in today, right? And uh, and so we've got now we've got google, you know wanting to do their own Things so you got google university and then you got amazon web services got its own amazon university or whatever else you've got going Others, you know, apple gave up a few years ago and microsoft gave up a few years ago But there is this, you know this this idea that you can monetize You know who cares who needs these universities and colleges. We can do it ourselves Okay, that's that's the conversation. We've got but uh, you know We what the first thing we take is if you as a college or a university you want to go ahead and develop these Micro credentials and alternative credentials and things like that go ahead and and you know because your university or college is You know credit it in but at the program level if you go these are these are all in our Situations we refer these things as substantive change process. We have a very clear Path forward on how these things are done So submit it and a lot of our institutions are starting to Do these things also, you know partnering with online program managers to be able to you know Have this or the back office man. I don't know whatever else that's going on as well And what we do is we look at, you know, what is that badge going to do or that microprincipal going to do How's that going to result affect the student and you know, I use the metaphor of the honeybee previously, right? I mean students are wanting that They want these different types of things that they want to incorporate into their under their belt You know, it's not just a anymore. It's not a i'm going to go and my butt's on the seat You know the old butt's on season Approach that we took they come here four or six year. They're captive audience. Somehow they you know, we do something somehow They get something they got a sheet of paper that's got a You know says you got a diploma or whatever and they go away And but I think these these approaches of badges and credentials, etc Micro credentials, etc are really, you know pushing this idea of these experiential learning type things that they got You know under the belt that the student has got this portfolio It's a portfolio of approaches that we've got students may take conventional courses They may take certificates along the way. They may get these badges along the way They may get these micro credentials along the way and not just on your campus They may be getting in some places as well. So now what happens is in our you know in our Calculus the college or university needs to be willing You know, we have this prior learning and transfer credit all manner of things that are set up That needs to be thought of as well. Does a badge have a clearly articulated learning outcomes? Does a badge have you know a time that is invested and by this Professor by the student. What are the you know declared outcomes? What are the learnings that have taken place? These things need to be part of it as well for us from our perspective as an accreditor that we look at and So it's a it's a portfolio approaches that the institution is doing and you know Some of the universities that have really jumped on this Arizona State University and others They're doing some you know, really Interesting approaches again because the marketplace is driving it and the private sector is driving it in many ways as well You've got a whole smooth Folks that are running around saying, you know come I'll give you a badge or a certificate and then of course, you know We accredited western governors university. That is in you've got southern New Hampshire University and others that are really uh, you know pushing the proverbial model of education itself and so So What I say is you are the the best judge at what happens on your campus Come and talk to me and then we'll help you get to that to that place that you want to be Thank you. Thank you. That's uh, that's a really really good answer We have a follow-up question from glenn vicki um Actually, it's he asks he says a few things ask a few things. I'm gonna try and digest them into one He's asking about covid waivers from the department of education And how they interact with either campus quality Or with substantive change approval processes Yeah, does that does that make sense? Yeah makes sense. Yeah, because we're we're doing it right now and So I can tell you that we have not watered down our standards or requirements in terms of from as an accreditor and But we recognize as I said, you know, I use the terms grace and kindness, right? There are some challenges that some institutions are facing. We got to take that into account as well But we're not going to water down our standards or anything like that. We still have to adhere to What has already been articulated and things like that So we take that sort of an approach in working with the institutions Even in this context of the the covid 19 itself now pandemic itself Recall back in march and in fact My cohorts and I at the the council for regional accrediting council commissions We're one of the first ones to go to The department of education to be able to you know get us In quotes the flexibilities and waivers and things like that including for us to be able to do virtual Evaluation visits and things like that as well And so that was put together and that was extended by the way through the 31st of december of 2020 currently as it stands in speaking with the The staff at the department of education not from the political Appointees but from the career staff They have said there is no further guidance on Going beyond december 31st what we've of 2020. Okay, there's a lot of Misinterpretation and misinformation if I may put it that way that's being you know foisted around but I've come across as well And what we're trying to we're reminded the our institutions is The interpretation that you've got is incorrect. This is what the department of education staff is saying so It stops december the 31st. So what we've done is to get our institutions to start going Go through this process if not if they're not already authorized to do distance education delivery They must submit to us And otherwise it's a substantive change proposal. They got to submit and my staff Does the exact same vetting that we've done Previously before the pandemic and all that in approving institutions to go online for you know remote learning and things like that and We're almost done the very last of the institutions is that you know being done literally this week We hope it's all going to be done We just want to be on the safe side our institutions need to be on the safe side in case The flexibilities are extended no problem, but you've already got this authorization So you can continue on even into the future. Yeah, okay And so that substantive change process is a critically important process And we've not watered down that at all. I can tell you that And and we we it's an iterative process, you know, we've got questions We'll ask them more questions and things like that too And so that's the approach that we've used in the context of the the the pandemic that we've got uh And then going back to what I said earlier as well in terms of the student learning outcomes and other things that we're looking for and also The disaggregated data that we need in terms of disaggregated by race ethnicity gender, etc We we will we are continuing to you know track all of that as well Well, I thank you for that Really really clear answer and glenn thanks you and chat for the clarification Um Like I said, you've got a whole range of questions coming at you from the community And that we have time for one last question And this is from Nicholas Santilli At the society fair college university planning And he asks a very very direct question What are some of the areas of institutional operations that your member institutions Continue to struggle with in preparing for reaffirmation reviews Wow, Nick Good to see you. I think I saw you kind of flashed by on my screen here below Ryan's and my Images that I see in my monitor here and uh, I think a couple of things here, uh, nick and uh And you and I've talked a little bit about this previously as well one of which I'm going to invoke A favorite line from a favorite movie of mine which is Coolhand Luke And some of you may remember that you're old enough that if you saw that movie Strothermarten's character He's the warden in the movie just to bring everybody up to speed and so pawn them and film by the way And it's about these prisoners and things like that and Strothermarten's character says what we have here is a failure to communicate So that's one thing that our institutions, uh, you know, for whatever reason I don't know what it is and and nick, you know this from a you know Your own you know background and perspective and all that Institutions that are really engaged in communication, you know, not just one way I'm gonna tell you what to do and all that but there's this engagement that is taking place They're doing, you know, really really well. The second one is in the world that you live in and work in planning and Really and the plans are not something that are done and you know ends up, uh, you know, oh, yeah We're gonna do a strategic plan. Everybody in the uncle does it every time you got a new president coming Yeah, we're gonna do a strategic plan and then it goes to the on the shelf behind Brian's head there goes on that bookshelf there and it collects dust and then five years later or whatever another president comes Yeah, yeah But it's not a living breathing dynamic plan Uh, and it's a very static sort of a thing But there's not this sort of the evaluation that takes place that are, you know tracking You know using dashboards or whatever else you're doing, you know, maybe it's a piece of paper and pencil or whatever But tracking what's going on and then and then making those The needed modifications as we go along. So, you know, those are a couple of things that really are critically important to think of as well Nick, uh, thanks you, um, and uh, and uh, I thank you partly for that excellent answer to that, uh really almost plaintive question, um, and uh I also have to thank you very much for your participation on this hour because this hour is done We have just rocketed through uh, 60 minutes of uh, uh conversation Thank you so much for So generously generously Yeah, thanks so much Brian for having me this is a lot of fun. I like this schindig Platform as well. I appreciate your, you know, uh listeners participating So if you've got, you know, those of you that are like me, you know, quiet and reserved and all that don't say much at all, you know Send me an email, please If you've got any further questions sunny very simply my first name s o n n y At n w c c u dot or g send me a question. I'll I promise you I'll I'll respond to you I try to respond within 24 hours and but it may take a little longer depends just depends but I will answer you Thank you Almost Be safe. All right. Be safe everybody. Take care. Thank you very much Now don't go I'll have to let you know Where things are going for the next few weeks Uh, so and again, let me thank you all for this fantastic range of questions and everything from the existential nature of crediting agencies to very specific details about policy bravo So, uh, just quickly, uh, we have our quick poll about Forum operations for the next four months or so. So just head to uh, survey monkey.com slash r slash f t f 2020 I'd love to hear your thoughts again. It's only gonna take you a minute to do