 You are big enough. You alone can change the world. Don't wait for anybody else. You alone can change the world, not because you will be actually doing it alone, because you will be such a power. It's like a magnet. You'll bring everybody to the idea. Idea is the power. Demonstration is the power and make it happen. Noble Laureate Professor Muhammad Yunus is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas. I'm very honored to have him because this is what our 100th episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Such a special honor to have Professor Yunus here, who is the father of both social business and microcredit, the founder of Grameen Bank and one of more than 50 other companies in Bangladesh. For his constant innovation and enterprise, the Fortune magazine named Professor Yunus in March 2012 as one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our time. In 2006, Professor Yunus and Grameen Bank were jointly awarded Noble Peace Prize. He is the recipient of 61 honorary degrees from universities across 24 countries. He has received 136 awards from 33 countries, including state honors from 10 countries. He is one of only seven individuals to have received the Noble Peace Prize, the United States Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the United States Congressional Gold Medal. He has appeared all over, has wonderful books. He's been on the cover of Time Magazine, Newsweek, and Forbes Magazine. Professor Yunus, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me and the pleasure to be with you. It's so great because we have a lot of ground to cover and I want to get right into the depth and substance of things. Our paths have crossed over the years. Many times, international events, DLD was the last physical event that we saw each other at, and we both appeared in the documentary film now with Greta Thunbury and Dr. Parag Tanan is in that as well. I'm in it and you're in it and many other fabulous people are in this documentary. The title now is very fitting, although because of COVID, the documentary was delayed. And so I tease, I say they should have called it yesterday because because of the pandemic, they couldn't get it out and have a timely release. But it was about now. The actions need to occur now. Our world is in need now, not in the future. We need to get away from these talk, talking about it and get into some solid actions of building infrastructure. You have been doing this for a well greater portion of your life and have been honored. I want to know how have you weathered all the craziness our world has experienced, not just the pandemic, Black Lives Matters, racist movements against Asians. The inauguration of the United States, has your model of living and working proven to be better during times of distress and pandemic? Well, if you don't do anything, go crazy, you do something, you go crazy. So it's better to do something and go crazy, rather than not do something and stay crazy. So I thought it's better to do something. And I know it's too big for me, but one idea always prompted me to move forward. You can start at a baby step and that can become a journey for a thousand miles. And that's how things are done. You don't expect that you reach the destination they want. You make a stop and you see a long journey ahead of you. Shouldn't discourage you, should encourage you, that yes, I'm ready for it and keep doing. And on the way, there will be lots of difficulty. It's not a smooth bed of flowers that you're working on. It's all torn and all kinds of obstacles that you run into. And that's how it makes it exciting and what doing it, because that's the direction that you want to go. So this is what I tried to do and I didn't expect the results to come right away. I didn't even know that the results would ever come. But you have to start and self-correct your steps. It's not that your first step comes with all the ingredients of the final step. The first step gives you an exposure of the difficulties and you try to position yourself so that you can make the next step. The next step is the big, big achievement, the fact that you take the next step that shows that steps are possible and that encourages you, although still a long way to go, still a bit uncertain where to go. So this is how I tried to do that. I had no idea when or how I'll finally ever get there. But you have a hope that on the way, there will be lots of corrections, lots of doing and correcting yourself. Nothing comes in a final shape. So you continue to work on it to give it a final shape. It's always something in the making. It's not something that you have a final scheme of things that you just follow to dot by dot. You've written a couple books. So I have one of them here, The Social Business. It's a beautiful read. In the other book, I read on an audible and I'm awaiting the physical copy. It's the world of three zeros. But in these books, you not only give out nice roadmaps, nice plans, nice examples of how to do things better and you've been putting these actions and things into practice. You're an economist by trade, which is unique because you actually go against everything that the neoclassical economy teaches you in the schools. I guess I really want to dive into it. Has that shown to be a better model, the models that you've used, even though there've been learnings along the way, have they shown to be proven or tested to just be better models to operate under? My whole work began with the utter frustrations with the thing that I learned as a student of economics because I saw a big distance between what I learned in the book, what I learned in the classroom, and what I see in the real world. So I said there's a big difference between what I have learned in the book and what I see in the real thing. And I said this is a big belief story, what I learned. It's not reflecting the real life of the people. I see lots of poverty, lots of hunger, lots of destitution, and there's nothing that I can do which I was told, which I learned from my classroom, is applicable. It all talks about something else. It's not about the people. I said there's a big distance between the classroom economics and the people. So that created the enormous frustration to say I'm a useless person by learning all this. I cannot make myself useful to anybody. So I was trying to discover if there's any usefulness left to me that I can go and be useful to somebody else. So in that pursuit I started going to the village next to the university campus to see if I can make myself useful to anybody, even for a day. So it's a denial of what I learned and trying to discover what I should do. So this is a big gap. And along the way I've learned many things from the people and I say this is real and I can do things and I can touch people's life. I can get excited about things that can happen which are not in the textbook. And that's how I started seeing things, how different it is from the real life to the people. And one by one I've just started raising big questions. Why do you say things like that? I see things like this. So how do you kind of match these two things? One is the reality and another is the theoretical exposition of what you should be seeing, you should be thinking. So this is how I tried to find my way of doing things. And along the way I come up with all those issues that you showed the book about the social business, about the three zeros. These are coming from my own experience. It's nothing that I sat down and wrote a book about it, it's not like that. I'm just documenting what I've gone through and what solutions I found about it. And I'm sharing with you, everybody else. And those examples are very successful ones. I know many people and I've seen and I've heard of the impact that you have. You don't receive a Nobel Peace Prize if there isn't some impact and success with what you do. And so I thank you for that. In the documentary now you say, you know, the house is on fire, we're burning and we're not doing anything. There's no actions. But what we need to do is begin to build the new roads to get us to a world of three zeros. And then you explain the three zeros. My question is, do you believe that we've begun to build the roads to get us to the world of three zeros? Again, I go back to what they originally started with, the first step. If I'm taking the first step towards the three zero world, that's a big steps that I've done the first step, although it's a thousand submits of journey. But the step has to be taken. I have taken that. If that helps to raise interest in my friend's mind or someone that I know became curious and want to see what it is and he or she takes the next step, there's another big achievement. There are only two people that, two people who take the steps, take the steps. So this is how I see it. I'm not saying that I've reached the end of the journey. I'm interested in making the beginning of the journey. Once you make the beginning, gradually becomes a bigger and you come closer, although it's still a thousand miles away, but it comes closer by one step. So this is a big achievement. So this is how I have seen and I see that people respond very well to what I've done. And what you said about the three zeros, I try to draw attention to people, look what we have done to the world. Pandemic has also given us a big opportunity to see it in a very different context. It is an immediate urgent context. In the face of pandemic, we saw what terrible things we have been doing along the way coming to what we did today. First of all, we created a world with enormous global warming and that's why the house is burning and we talk about it, but we don't lift our fingers to stop that fire. And I tried to describe it by saying that house is burning. We know that, but we are having a big party inside the house, party about the celebration, about the growth, about the prosperity, about economic progress that we have been making, technological breakthroughs we are making. These are all the celebrations. I said, these celebrations don't mean anything when the house is burning. We'll be finished. I said, we don't have much time left. In the meantime, we have become the most endangered species on this planet. And not only we don't have time for ourselves as most endangered species, we have to, unless we take action, emergency action, we'll be finished. And not only we are destroying ourselves by, we are endangered species, we are making many other species because of our action as most endangered species. So we are not only hurting ourselves, we are hurting anybody who comes close to us. I said, this is not the kind of thing that will save us from the ultimate destruction of the entire existence of our planet, our existence on this planet. So this is what we're real. This is what all the economic thinking, all the economic institutions, policies that we build, ultimately took us here. And then I talk about extreme wealth concentration. All the wealth of the world is concentrated in few hands. And every day, it gets more concentrated. I said, what kind of economic machine is that? It takes all the wealth and puts it in the hands of fewer and fewer people. More and more wealth, fewer and fewer people. I said, it's amazing. And pandemic shows us very clearly. When the pandemic came, suddenly all the people are pushed downwards. Those who are $5.50 per day people who are the half population of the entire world, they are pressed downwards and they became $4.50 per day. And those were above $5.50. They came closer to $5, a billion to $5. And those were slightly above the poverty, they are pushed below the poverty. This is what happened in the pandemic, the early days of the pandemic. The process continues. They lost their income, lost their livelihood and everything. During the same period, millions, even billions of people are pushed down closer, getting closer to the zero level of income. And at the same time, the few people who are the billionaires or the richest people, maybe 3,000 such people, have gained more than $5 trillion in additional wealth. Exactly the same period, $5 trillion of additional wealth and the billions of people losing whatever they have. So what is happening? All the wealth is moving away from the people to extreme high positions of a handful of people, $5,000 people, it's nothing out of 8 billion people. They own 99% of the wealth. I said, the economic machine that we built had become expert in getting all the wealth away from people. People is one end of the incomes map. People, the wealth is on the other side of the map. So there's a big, big distance between the people and the wealth. The wealth is on the one side, people are on the other side. And that distance is getting bigger and bigger. I said, that's the wrong machine. We have to rebuild the machine. We design the machine so that the wealth and people come together. And the ultimate destiny, everything that we do would be to put people and the wealth together. And they should live together forever and ever, never to be this distance from each other. So this is the thing that I'm saying, this is a good opportunity, pandemic is a good opportunity to redesign the machine, not to go back to the same old machine. And I raised the slogan during the pandemic, no going back. We don't want to go back. Go back to the where we are coming from. That's a terrible world. Now we have a breathing space because the train which is taking us to destruction has stopped. And now we can get off the train and then build a new train to go to a new destination. And that's the destination I talk about, the world of three zeros. Zero net carbon emission. This will be world of net zero carbon emission. There will be no global warming at all. That's the kind of world we can build. It's within our power to build it. And we can build the world where there will be no wealth concentration. Wealth will not be running away from people. It will be the reverse. Wealth and people live together. So this will be the zero net carbon emission, zero wealth concentration and zero unemployment. There will be nothing called unemployment because human beings are by nature, entrepreneurs. So we should restore that thing that all of us express ourselves as entrepreneurs, not guided by instructions of somebody about me, guide me to help me to direct me what to go as if I'm a robot. I don't want to be a robot. I want to be human being. I want to be created. I want to create things. And this is one life I have to live. I want to put my signature on this planet. This is what I've done while I was here. So this is for the broad package that I was talking about. That is so beautiful. And you've touched on a couple of things that I really want to go deeper in. One is really this global citizenry or this global operating system that the world believe, whether they believe or not is kind of operating on. We're all on the same spaceship earth and we're all bound by the same universal laws as part of our world. But we have these civilization frameworks or these systems, whether it's democracy or whether it's certain countries that have some kind of a system or governance in place, that's just not working for humanity altogether. And one overarching big example of that is there has been more than 20 civilization frameworks in our world before. So early antiquity, Mesopotamia, Incas, Aztecs, Mayas, the ancient Greece, the Romans, on and on, 20 civilization frameworks that were pretty advanced, had great infrastructures, had good innovations. But all but two of those 20 civilizations collapsed due to ecological or environmental collapse. And two of them collapsed because of conflict and displacement collapse. But I want to know, you believe that the world, as a globe, I would like kind of your viewer speak as a globe, needs a new civilization framework. And do you believe that it's a world of three zeros or is there maybe a little bit more out there? Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that. First of all, you said that we are in the planet, it's a spaceship, we're on the spaceship planet, we're going. That I want to make clear that we are not passengers on this spaceship. And somehow we get the feeling that we are passengers, we're waiting for a next thing to come, next mail to be served, and that sort of thing. We have to realize that we are the pilots. We are the one who's running this ship and taking, and it's our responsibility to navigate it, to take it to the right destination. That's the number one thing. Forget about being the passengers in the first class suit that you have. You are the one which is the navigator and we're the pilots, every one of us is the pilot. So that's a combined efforts that we have, that we know exactly where you want to go, then we can do it. If we don't have any destination, we'll be just drifting. We don't know where we're going. We're enjoying ourselves with our meals, with our drinks, with our drinks, that's not what the ultimate of this planet should be. It will destroy itself because we are not going anywhere. We are not drifters. We have very, very specific destination time. Then comes to the civilization that you mentioned, the 20 civilizations and all that. Each one of the civilization is a localized civilization. It's not a global civilization. And it's a fantastic civilization. And each one has contributed so much to learn from each other. But it was not a global situation. Now, after going through all these 20 civilizations, we have learned many things to create a global civilization, make it completely in one package. This is what the global civilization is all about. And that time it was a local civilization because there are few people on this planet. It took us many, many years, maybe 100,000, 200,000 years to come to a billion people on this planet, one first billion. And once you get to the first billion, it took only 32 years to make the second billion. And now we become, add another billion every 10 years or less. What took 200,000 years? Now it takes only 10 years, less than even a decade. We add another billion. So this is the first progress that the expansion of humanity being continuous on this planet. And it continues right now. It does that. And in the process, the things that we have learned along the way, by our practice, by our way, developing from one step to the next step, we are not thinking about it, but somebody stumbled into it and followed it. And we created the world, which kind of built ourselves. And we started our life as entrepreneurs. And you remember, we were for 200,000 years, we are in Africa. We didn't move anywhere. Just moving from one version of human being to another version of human being until we became the Homocipians. And the Homocipians, we were 70,000 years. And then after about 30,000 years, we started moving out of Africa. After those 100,000, 200,000 years, first time we started moving, taking a step outside of Africa. So this is what we did as an explorer, as an innovator, as a go-getter. In our identity, in all scientific documentaries, we were hunter-gatherers. Always we were hunter-gatherers. We are not slaves. We are not working for anybody. We were hunters and gatherers. And that hunter gatherers ultimately settled down in Mesopotamia. We became farmers. So the first time we started growing things. Again, we are innovators. We are innovators. We are creators. We are not taking orders from anybody. So we become farmers. In other places, they became shepherds. They're taking care of animals. They're taking your vegetables. They're taking animals. And so again, we are doing our own thing. Along the steps when somebody has more, somebody has less, then commanding each other began. That's the recent process out of this thousands of years. So the gene of entrepreneurship is in us. But what we have done now is subtest the gene. And we became people to take orders. We introduce slavery. Forget about your existence, your slave. Then we have the modern version of slavery, jobs. Monthly you are paid, and you follow orders. And you give your life and everything you have to serve the master that you have. So the master is commanding me. I said that is a sacrifice of the human ability. So we sacrifice all our creative ability just for the jobs. Job is not consistent with human beings. And that's what the point that I gave is, and that's how my prophetic when you read about my prophetic, this is what actually we've done. We brought finances to people. Suddenly the touch of the finance made them entrepreneurs. I said finance is the oxygen of entrepreneurship. If you don't have that oxygen, people are nobody. They are just dead, half dead, lying there. They don't know they even exist. The moment you touch it with the financial oxygen, they become alive, active, creative, because you need that touch with finance. The finance is the key, that's the magic. You touch the magic one, people become active. Now we are teaching in our schools, in universities, get ready to get a job. If you don't get a job, you're a failure. You're nobody. See, we turn completely wrong. They should be, we came to become entrepreneur so that the finance will be available anytime during the school. Even when you're in the school, you can start business of your own. You're an entrepreneur. You design your thing. And entrepreneurship doesn't mean success of data. There'll be failures, there'll be successes and so on. So, entrepreneurship. This is what I brought in. So, with the financial, with the finance, microcredit, even the illiterate, poorest women in the remote village suddenly finds herself in an entrepreneur with a $10 loan, with a $15 loan. And that became known as microcredit. So, this is what we did. And one after another. So, this is a new civilization. That's the point I'm making, a global civilization. The civilization that we built is based on greed. Because when we come to start commanding each other, the greed took over. I want to accumulate, accumulation came into me. Forget everything else. And that accumulation translated in economic theories and so on, greed. And that's why economists define human being as someone who is driven by self-interest. You see, is self-centric, one person centered. And that is the destruction of the whole idea of what the human race is all about. We forget about the many. We can center this online and me. It's a me-centric world. And that's what we have to not create the real civilization, which is a global civilization, which will be mini-centered, multi-centered, not me-centered. We have to move from me-centered to the multi-centered. And that's why we bring the social business. See, there's a business to make money. That's what we are told, profit maximization, that makes it greedy, that makes it addicted to many, addicted to wealth. And we created a totally wrong world. The world that could create global warming and all that kind of thing that we talk about. We have to move out. We say, no, we are also not only self-interest driven, we're also driven by collective interest. We have to discover the collective interest and make ourselves intra-premier to serve the collective interest. That creates another business to solve problems rather than make money. So it's a non-profit-oriented business. The business makes profit, but profit stays with the business. It's not something that I want to take out from that. So that's a social business, non-dividend business to solve problems. Once human being pay attention to solving problems, all the problems of the world can be solved. And that's another finishing line. I said, nothing is impossible for human beings. Human beings can achieve anything they want, provided they make a decision to do it. Today, we don't make a decision. We are so busy with ourselves. We don't want to talk about anything else. So we drifted into the kind of life we have today. So we have to create a new civilization, a civilization, which will not be self-centric. It will be something multiple-centric. It will send interest in the collectivity of the human beings, that of the individual person. You also say kind of a conscious social business, this new consciousness in business, in doing anything. And we see this emergence, that there's a lot more social businesses, emerging more social entrepreneurs. We also see big movements in planetary services. So that companies that are computer or tech companies, all of a sudden, they have not only a sustainability part of their organization, but they have an environment part of their organization, that they're offering planetary services because they care about society and environment, and that's more of a global concern, and also a better model for long-term sustainability. They can have enough resources and sustain their employees well over time while being very social. So there's tons of trends, and I appreciate you addressing these emerging civilization frameworks that we're seeing, and there's multiple that are emerging. I want to dive a little bit more into some kind of thoughts on economics. I'm a sustainable development goal advocate, which you see from my pen and speak about them, but there's the circular economy, there's the regenerative economy, there's the Green New Deal, there's the donor economics, there's planetary boundaries. So right now, we're on the cusp of a lot of newer economic or civilization framework models that are all kind of really moving more towards ecological economics and away from extractive and very capitalistics, me, me, me, selfish, greedy economics, but more into social, sustainable, circular, global for everyone, for our planet, since we are crew members. I want to know, do you feel out of all those models that now people are talking about in their buzzword? Is there one that you say, are we going to take bits and pieces from all of them, or is there one we're really going to focus in on? What's your thoughts and feelings about? It's almost confusion, because there's so many options, so many people talking in different directions. Thank you for raising that question. I'll put it this way. All these attempts, initiatives that you listed around, very exhaustive list that you have given, is a move in the right direction. Let's not doubt about that. So whether one is better than the other, you can judge what you want and what they're doing, and so on. But each one comes from the frustration with the other extreme, extreme, me, me, me. So they are trying to get away from me, me. Some do a little bit, some do a little more, and so in some approach it this way, some approach it that way, and so on. So this I'll say positive. And along the way, by trial and error, by success, by doing things, we'll learn some of the flow will become bigger flow, some of the flows will become thinner flow and disappear, and some of the flow will continue. But then attempt to do that, and that's a good beginning. I'll say that as that. While I say that, I will at the same time I'll say these are at the level right now, where instead of 100% profit maximization, I don't understand anything else but me, I want 100% and the highest amount. That's a profit maximization period. All for me, nothing for anybody else. There we came, okay, not 100%, maybe 99% will be okay. 1% for somebody else, for everybody else. So that's a big sacrifice that instead of I'm still profit maximizing, but after I've done the profit, I separated 1% for everybody else. So I'm mixing profit with social, the part that I want to do something, let's call it social. So what we have is a picture where we started 100% profit for me, then come to the next step, 99% for me, 1% for others, social, 1% social. Then 98% for me, 2% social, which is improvement. So you give it a name or the 2% and so on. So somebody said, 95% for me, 5% for others. That's a big one. So I'm saying, no, no, I'll do 50%, 50% for me, and 50% for others. This is a fantastic thing. So what you said, these are only what proportion is for me and what proportion is for others. I'm not sacrificing anything so far as I'm concerned. I'm still holding on to it, 50%, 95% and so on. Then, suppose we continue in that part, as well as some flow will get bigger and bigger, somewhere within 95% for others, only 5% for me. So I'm a big sacrifice now, 95% for others and 5% for me. This is a big one. And then you come to 99% for others, 1% for me. There's a big job that you almost give away everything. Then comes 100% for others, nothing for me. That's where we come. That's what called social business. Nothing for me. Everything is for others. So you have the whole spectrum. You can pick one of those things that you said, put where it is right now. Is it 1% social, 99% personal or 99% social, 1% personal or 50% whatever. So you design it. So each one is good improvement as we go along. But we said we don't want to go through all this stuff. We go straight to the point. 100% for others. I don't want anything because I'm excited about solving problems. Because people tell me that if you are dedicated to solving everybody else's problem, if you're not taking any money from me for yourself, then what is the incentive for people? Why should I do it? If I'm not getting anything, 100% for others. It's 100% social. I said, well, I understand incentive path. Money is a great incentive. That's for sure. But money is not the only incentive. That's the most important. Money is not the only incentive. Since there are other incentives, that incentive may be more attractive. So I'm following that attractive incentive. So I defined myself. I said, look, if you look at this way, making money may be happiness as an incentive. Making money may be happiness. Making other people happy may be super happiness. So I looked at the super happiness and I get very happy when I see I have solved the problem. I have solved the problem of people getting financial support, creating a bank for them. It's a business, but it's not for business to make money. It's a business to solve their problem and it's excitement. And I do again and again. All my life I've done that. And the time I do it, I get excited about it. That's a super happiness. I said, I'm happier than anybody else. It depends on how you define happiness for you. So I define happiness. And I said, that happiness may be yours. Simply you're suppressed it. You're not exposing it. That's why you're not familiar with it. The moment you open it, when you start solving people's problems, you'll be amazed how excited you've got because you have solved the problem with other people and people will remember you because you are the one to solve their problem. And that's a fantastic pleasure that people remember you for doing something while you're here. So this is what I was talking about. And last point I'll make, when you mix profit and social together in any proportion, one person and the other person, I remind everybody, profit is very powerful thing. The moment you accommodate profit and social. So 50%, 50% social, 50% profit per minute at the beginning. Which direction this one will go? Will it become more social or will be less social in the future? My prediction is it will be less social in the future. It will be more personal in the future because profit is very strong. It always grabs towards it. You start with 50, 50, you become less 50. You started 99% social, 1% profit. That 1% profit will be so powerful in the future time you see you became 2% profit and 98% social. You reduced. So it has a power of driving things from the social part. So in order to avoid the attraction, the magnetic power of the money, I divided up. I said, do it separately. You do 100% profit one company and 100% social another company. So that one cannot pull each other out. This is completely done for social for everybody else. And this is completely done for me. I said, that's fine. That's much better than mixing. Mixing, you don't know the moment you say this is a social entrepreneurship, for example. You don't know when you say social entrepreneurship whether you're talking about 1% social and 99% profit or 50% social, 50% profit. So you remain a hazy area. So in that hazy area, profit takes over. It draws you to exit. So I said, you make it very clean. This is social business, which is 100% social by definition. If you're not doing that, then you get out. You're not social business anymore. You cannot call yourself social business. If you have right to statue your personal. So that's why it's very clean. So this is how I try to address it. And I'm not against anything. I'm simply saying for protection purposes, this works much better. Yeah, I totally understand what you're saying. It's also, it's a fine line because a lot of organizations who start foundations or social aspects within the core of their business tend to use it as greenwashing, tend to use it as a tax haven, tend to use it. It always has the opportunity to be skewed or manipulated for the benefit of profit to look like it's something social or good for the world. And that's just a fine line. So I totally hear what you're saying. Just to end economics and I want to end it with more of the ecological economics. So you really go since the beginning, especially with Grameen Bank, you've gone against neoclassical economics models as they teach in school. I mean, you're doing the total opposite, which is, you know, it's a hard road to go. But I want to get your feelings on ecological economics and really the relationship of economics to our ecosystem and our biosphere. So when people talk about economics or especially with banking and microcredits and things that you've done, you do it much different. But a lot of economic models, a lot of banks, they only see the input and the output in the earth and the ecosystem. The biosphere is nowhere in there and it doesn't make any sense. It's an endless growth and it's an endless deficit. There's no total environmental cost. There's no true cost. There's no natural capital. And I know you really focus in on the social, but that social really has a lot to do with that ecological is where I maybe want to just get from your words what your thoughts on how we tie that to the ecosystem and biosphere and what your feelings are on that. Yeah. Thank you, Mark for raising that question. And I was previously mentioning that we made ourselves the most endangered species in this planet by doing what we are doing and we don't realize it. The house is burning. We are celebrating inside. This is the kind of picture that I was trying to get. At the same time, I'm saying not only we are the most endangered species, we turn into most endangered species ourselves, in the process of being endangered species. We have made other species endangered because of our own action. We have destroyed the life in the sea. We've destroyed the life in the planet because of our own action with the global warming and everything else, making things difficult for other life forms completely, disappearing every day. We are burning up all the forest because you are so greedy that you want to make that extra dollar out of it by burning it. So we are destroying all the things in the name of our own existence and so on. We've destroyed our own existence. Every day we have destroyed many species on this planet every day and becoming closer and closer. So I'll say we have to reverse that process. What's happening because of our greed, everything is an essence of this greed, profit maximization, which is the buzzword, the entire economic system that we built. Buzzword is profit maximization and that's what causes it. It makes us greedy. Profit maximization took away our eyes. We cannot see things except we see things with dollar sign. In our eyes, they are implanted dollar signs. We have nothing we see in the dollar sign. I said the best thing we can do is to take the dollar sign away and put a bifocal glass, at least, where you'll see in one part dollars and in the other part global picture. So at least you can balance it. I'm not saying dollars are completely renewed. I cannot do it right away. I'll say at least have a bifocal glass. You see the world do it. That's why I'm saying you create the business to make money. Also create the business to solve the problems of the people in the planet and that's the sort of business. Money making, profit maximizing business and social business. My bet is if you continue to do that, you'll get attracted more and more to social business because you see how much power you have in impacting in the world. That's tremendous amount of excitement that you are a simple human being, but you have the power to change the world. That's what gives you and that power is in you. I said today because of the technology, that power is magnified even more. You can do much more than what you could have done 10 years, 20 years back. And 10 years from now, you can do many more than what you can do now. And that's the power you hold. But you are wasting that power just to make another extra tons of money, another extra trillion money. And what do you do with the extra trillion money? You're the same guy. You can't eat all the things in the world by yourself, but you get all the money for yourself, which means nothing. So once you get involved with it, you solve those problems along the way. So I would say ultimately it is about what we see, what we think. That's where the purpose comes in. And that's where education comes in. What do we educate ourselves for? I said the first thing in the education system should be to raise the question, who am I? The education system should be able to tell us its kids as they grow up, who you are, who I am. But to ask yourself the question and find your answer. It's not the teacher telling you this, what you are. I'm not what you tell me to do. I want to be what I want to be. And that's the process from the day one of the school, all the way when you graduate, when you go out of this school. Every day, this will be common for 10, who am I? And why am I here for? What is the purpose? These are the two questions never uttered in any education system anywhere in the world. See, you are told what is this, what is this planet, what is this history, where geography, science, technology, biology, everything. But you don't ask the question who I am. What am I here for? This is the fundamental question. And you define your own. I'm not saying that you have to take one particular book and push it into their throat. No, let the person have an idea what I am. And they have the whole class together to debate for one week, who am I? You tell who you are, I tell you what we are. And there's no right or wrong. Simply what I want and what I want to be. That's the purpose, who I am, what the purpose, what I have, what I can be. And that's it. And that will prepare me by the time I'm an adult. And it's time to be 15-year-old, you are quite adult. And you, did you change the whole world as a 15-year-old? Because you have decided this is what today we don't have that chapter in our mind. So we drift. So we say money is the only thing that helps you. Because that protects me. That's the only lesson we learn. Because in a school, you take profit maximization is the thing. And you work for one of the profit maximizers. So that you have the shadow of one profit maximizer. In the process, we become some kind of slave to them, to work for them. We work for them as a higher guns. So we became higher guns for the profit maximizer. And they make the money. And we later then complained that all the money they got, this is a bad concentration. We help them to become well-conservative. If you don't work for them, they can't get the profit, get all the work for themselves. So we help them because we sacrifice them. We become the higher guns for them to make that happen. So if we all became entrepreneurs, they cannot be a cumulative of the wealth. Because I'm not working for them. If I don't work, I pick up the wealth myself. If you don't work for anybody, you pick up the wealth for yourself. So there is no well concentration. And that's what the genuine human being should be. That I take up my decision and I pick up the my wealth and so on. I continue and I create myself and see what I want to do with myself for the world. So this is the direction that we should be going. So the education system is very important. Purpose is very important. And then rest of the thing will fall in place because we will have our own eyes. Nobody can implant the dollar sign eyes into our face to see the world with dollar sign. You say that so great because it's actually something that you've been working on for a long time with Grameen Bank. You've not only given scholarships, but loans, student loans. You've also started Joan master's program, a new form of the master's program. You're very concerned about a new the new wave of learning, not educating us to be slaves or to have dollar signs to go work at a job for someone else. And job stands for just overbroke, you know, doing the bare minimum slave work for someone else, but to really give people learning and discovery of who they are and how they're integrally connected to one another as social beings, but also to our earth as human beings as not passengers, but actually steering the ship as navigators to the course of our future on earth. That I have six more questions for you. And the most there's two really hard ones. The first one I'm going to ask you is what does a world that works for everyone look like to you? The one that which works for everybody? I would say it's a world that works for everyone looks like for you. Yeah, the one that will be happening for everybody. We are allowed to become entrepreneurs, because I create my own world. I'm the creator of my own world. I'm not taking orders from anybody else. This is the number one condition that we'll see. And you create most important thing, a very important aspect of it. We design the entire financial system. The reason we have created all these problems of global warming and everything else is because of the way the financial system works. Here we are signing up very segmented everything else. And the banks give a ton of money to the fossil fuel to the plastic industry and so on and so forth. So it continues because you are not controlling the financial system. So ideally, ideally, ultimately, the entire financial system should be social business financial system. Here I'm not doing banking to make money for myself or my shareholders, anybody else. I'm doing it to solve the problem of the world so that the finance is available to you. That's what I mean. Bank became a social business bank. This is not a bank to make money for me. I don't want anything of the bank. So I created the bank which will be for people to enjoy and do it. So all the financial system should be at the head of the very basis of it should be social business. Even if you cannot make 100% social business, at least major part of the financial system should be social business. It's very important. Like how important it is, like the vaccine, for example, the pandemic at the vaccine, you see the situation of vaccine. Now few companies, monopoly companies, these vaccine companies, they are declaring the terms how you can get it to save your life. So I tell people the entire world is sinking, drowning because of the pandemic. They're losing their life. And few people come with a boat saying that I can give you a space in my boat if you're the highest bidder. So I'm looking for the highest bidder to come. You can care less whether you're dying or something. I said, this is precisely what the vaccine companies are doing. I said, this is a life versus profit maximization. It's the ugliest form of capitalism that this is working. I said, life is supreme. It runs everything else. This is like a worse situation. In worse situation, you forget everything. You try to protect yourself, your nation, your community or whatever. This is your number one priority. You override all of the things. I said, why don't you do this for this period of time? Take this debt same as something which doesn't have any patent right so that this vaccine can be produced by any company, anywhere. There's a plenty of capacity to produce vaccines all around the world. But they will not do that. They will not let their vaccine, the monopoly patent power will give it away. I said that if for this purpose to save people's life, vaccine should remain a patent-free product so that you are not subject to any patent. You can produce it anywhere you want. Use it so that this can be produced all over the world. So the supply is not from one central point of view, production unit to the whole world. It will be distributed production all around the world and distribution becomes easy, production becomes easy, capacity because multiple capacity. Even in a country like Canada, it's running out of vaccines right now. Bangladesh doesn't have any vaccine. India has stopped supplying vaccines. They promised to supply self-vaccines to many countries because they are under license from big companies. They did that. Today, they cannot do it because they need them all. So the USA has stopped supplying the ingredients of the vaccines, the inputs of the vaccines, because they want to break them. So this is what we are right now. Let's start. One of the things that I said, this is a good time to start social business from a city company. I love that. I think that is absolutely so important. It goes back to everything that you're saying that if it's not 100% social, if it's not 100% good for the society and for the well-being of human suffering and our global grand challenges, and it's tied with profits, greed gets in the way, money gets in the way, and it's corruptible. People are dying instead of getting vaccines. People are dying or not allowed to move forward because we're talking about money and greed and who can get them first and who doesn't? It's really a sad thing. This ties really nicely to my next question. It might be a little bit complicated, and so I want to explain it a little bit. In our world, we have this thing that some call the human condition. It's basically something that keeps humanity from unifying in order to create or solve our global grand challenges, our human suffering, the ills in the woes, whether it's the non-party delegates or the party delegates of the United Nations not agreeing on a roadmap to get us to 1.5 degrees of warming or if it's the world economic form, not unifying and saying we need to all come together and agree on this course to solve our global grand challenges that we're kind of all competing for vaccines or competing for money or competing for land. Instead of saying we're all Homo sapiens, we're all humanity, why can't we unify each other? Go back to the time where we all walked out of the plains of savannahs or where we all emerged as Homo sapiens and say, we are distant cousins. We are a family. Let's unify ourselves on a roadmap for the future, and so my question is, is really how do you understand or do you believe that there's a human condition that kind of separates us from not only in nations and borders and cultures, but in competition, one with another, where we're all navigating this spaceship earth, and what's your understanding on that? Do you think there's a way to solve that or a way to to unify humanity to solve our problems? Or do you think that's the big dilemma? No, I don't think it's a dilemma. I think we, in my way, I think differently than unifying everybody to do something. This is important inifying people to do something great, but in my thinking, this is a second order, third order importance, not the first order importance. I always put the first order importance to me, I, you. What you want to do, that's the way it will be, not what somebody else wants to do. Sometimes I feel when we talk about unifying and doing things, it's an escapist way of doing things. I don't want to do things. So I talk about, oh, you're not agreeing. Why do we have to agree? I do my thing. I do it and people agree with me because they like it what I'm doing. They come, can I join you? Rather than me in pursuing them, oh, please come and join me. I don't want to ask you. I do the thing that I want, you do the thing you want. We'll be seeing lots of common things happening and not a whole necessity will happen. So if you're not activist, then you're always trying to bring people together to stay with the same mind and agree on something, signature on the bottom of the line and then fighting with every word of it. I would rather put focus on the action itself. Let's do the action, do it together, do it and then impress each other. It's a competition, competition of the self. I do better than you. You'll be mesmerized by what I have done and you'll be running after me to join me and that's the way it will be. So that's why I say education system is very important to put the importance in the person. You are big enough. You alone can change the world. Don't wait for anybody else. You alone can change the world, not because you will be actually doing alone because you will be such a power. It's like a magnet. You'll bring everybody to the idea. Idea is the power. Demonstration is the power and make it happen. So this is how I say it and I think people underestimate themselves by when they will say that we have to do things, we have to go to the United States. I would say, what is the United Nations? What they can do for me? I want to do it myself. I want to change the world. I have the capacity. I want to take care of the health care of my whole area that I have or whole country. I can do that. It's only I have to build the institution that will build the financing procedures and so on and so forth. And then if the people like it, this is what I'm doing good thing. They will be coming because they see I'm doing that thing. They may be delayed because they say, first they will suspect this is something fishy. It shouldn't be like that. But in the meantime, you are extending and you're showing people benefiting people agreeing that yes, this is good idea. And then somebody said, I can do better than what you have done. Go right ahead. That's what I want to do. You do it better than one. I'll follow you. I'm not here to give a big sign that I'm the best. I'm not saying that. I'm with the one. And now that I have done it, you have taken the next step, which is better. And I salute you and I follow you. And then somebody said, I do better than both of you. That's it. Let's do it because our thing is to make that happen. I don't give for example, the first row said to the government either that government has to do everything. Government only follow us what we show, what we do. So look, this is going to be done. Government's role is to facilitate us. If they can do it the best way, then the good government. That's so that citizens can do better than anybody else. So that I can, I'm not interrupted. I'm not, or somebody is not pulling the government or somebody else by showing something and actually doing something else. Those kinds of things. So that I can be safe. I can do it, focus it in my work and so on. And there will be the cheerleaders, government will be cheerleaders for us. Yeah, you're doing great work and they will be publicizing that fantastic work is done here by such and such person. We admire him. We will put all our support to him, whatever he needs. We'll be at his door waiting for his instruction, what we should do for him so this is the direction I come from, not 100% exactly the way it will happen, but this is the direction in which I think it will happen. I love it. You empower lots of women and girls through micro loans, through school loans, through your education and things. Have you seen over the years how that has paid an ecological and environmental impact as well as a community impact by those success stories, those women and girls being empowered to either go to school or to start a business or to have worth and credit and loans where they might have been unbankable before and they might not even had an ID before. And now all of a sudden you've given them a loan and empowered them in some ways that that's gone on to change a whole community, a whole family of people because of that help and that empowerment. Do you have any good stories that you can tell us on what you've seen in that because that's a big topic in our world, you know, the suppression of women and girls and how that really has a big impact on our environment and our world. We have not done any study in that sense that they get to put them in terms of results and so on, but what I can say that anybody who has done any work in any direction in Bangladesh to understand what Bangladesh would was in 70s and 1980s, early years of Bangladesh, what it was there and how it is now. And if you are a visitor to Bangladesh, we came here 70s and 80s and now visit again a few years later. The most striking thing that you'll find in the writings and the observations and personal experiences and also everything that we do in this house, most dramatic thing that happened in Bangladesh is the change of status of women, completely different. 40 years back, 30 years back, women didn't exist in this country. You cannot see women anywhere in Bangladesh, they're hiding, hiding behind the house, behind everybody else's eyes because it's a very, very conventional Muslim society, saying that you cannot be visible. Visibility is no, no, you cannot do that. Today you come to Bangladesh, women everywhere. If you go to a village in Bangladesh, at that time, 40 years back, even if you are a foreigner, even a Bangladeshi man comes to a village, suddenly the whole village will disappear behind the house. No women will be anywhere because there's a man in that village, so they are hiding. Today you come to the same village, even if you're a foreigner, you'll be swarmed by women. Come, who are you from? Who are you? Who are you? What brings you here? Please come and visit us. Please come to my house. I'm going to say no, please come to my house. They're touching you, they're holding you, taking you there. They're free. They see as another person, another human being, and I'm very happy that we came to their village. They feel proud that we can see them and so on, so that's it. This is just a personal kind of thing, but as a thing that today women empowerment has expressed itself in many diverse ways in terms of its role in the society, its role within the family itself. In the family, women was nobody. Today she is the most important person in the family because of the experience that she has brought into the picture. As a business woman, she has established her own identity and so on. The children are something. And you'll be seeing the friends who joined the main bank, the women mother. She's illiterate, completely. Now you go there, there's a young girl, who looks exactly like her because this is the next version of her. She talks like her, she dresses like her, but she's not illiterate. She's a medical doctor and she's here to see you because you're visiting their village. So she came from wherever she was working, she took a leave and came to see you here in this village and working with the mother. It looks like they are two daughters, two sisters, but one is totally illiterate mother and one is very modern educated doctor who practices medicine someplace else. So this is the transform in one generation and they are all coming from the same level, distribution. One had the opportunity to go to school and continue in the school. She has all the elements of being successful in school. That's why she became a medical doctor. Now you look at both of them. A question will always come to your mind. Her mother could have been a doctor too. She had all the elements that her daughter has, but society never gave her the opportunity not to become a doctor, but even to read and write. She cannot write her name, spell her name. Society never gave her. So who is responsible for this? Is she responsible for her poverty and her literacy and all that, but the society which created her responsible for doing that? In one little intervention, just one little bank, not the government, not everybody else. I'm sure government could have done lots of other things, but not in this case. One little organization, which is a business organization, is not a charity organization, gave her a loan. So you stay, you continue education as long as you're in school, finance should not be a problem. You can subject to the education. And that's what she did. She became a medical doctor. So you have many of these young people who are masters degrees in engineering, who have masters degree in many other subjects, who have become a PhDs, who are now become faculty members in international universities around the world, but coming from the same poor family. These parents are still, if they're alive, there's illiterate, didn't have, but they improve their life, but didn't make a jump by children. So this is the difference. That's why I said poverty is not created by people. Poverty is created by the system with them. And poverty is like a bonsai tree. You take the seed of the tallest tree in the world and put in a flower pot. It grows only this much. And you cannot blame the seed for that. See this as good as any other seed in the forest that you saw. Simply, we didn't get the seeds enough space, enough soil to grow. That's why it became so much as a poor people and bonsai people. There's nothing wrong with your seed. Simply society never gave you space to grow as tall as everybody else. And when I say space, it's not something you give away. I didn't give away. I didn't make a business to give you any return of interest so that you perform all the things and cover all the costs with sustainable business. And that's missing for billions of people on this planet right now. We need to do it. What beautiful stories. And thank you for sharing those. Just a few questions left. The burning question is the hardest question I have for you today. It's very similar to what does a world that works for everyone look like, but it's the burning question WTF. It's not the swear word. It's what's the futures? What's your vision? What's the futures? I know you're still going strong at your age, your planet. You've got lots of life in you. You have tons of projects. But what's the future for those multiple generations? Where should we be looking at what's your vision of the futures? I don't look for multiple generations. They're too long. They're much shorter than that. They're multiple, but not a long series of generations. Because technology kind of squeezed the time period and can be done today and change it. Provided our decisions are clear. So I always put emphasis on the decision. And I said nothing is impossible for a human being. Provided we decide to do it. We don't decide. We just fly around. We say we're going to moon, we go to the moon. Nothing can stop us. We want to go to Mars, we'll go to Mars. Now the helicopter is flying on the Mars. Because we decided to do that. This is just a decision. And technology follows. At that time, when we made the decision, we want to go to the moon, we didn't know how to go there. Literally, we didn't have any idea how to do it. But some general idea, some notions. And then when we decide everything come into place, we made it happen. So to me, first to make the decision, what kind of world we want. And that's what to answer that question for myself. I said, I want to create a world of pre-zeros. Zero net carbon emission, zero well concentration, zero unemployment. And this is it. So I worked for that. And I encourage everybody else, let's work for this. We'll make it happen. Because we know how to get there. Simply we got stuck with the many other ideas, making money and all that. So we said once we made this decision that we want to make a world of pre-zeros, forget about everything else. This is our first priority. Our generation laid a foundation. Our next generation will build and work. And the third generation, fourth generation will make it complete. We don't need more than four generations. That's about it. So why can't we do that? What's wrong with creating a world with zero net carbon emission? Is it that bad? All we have to do is to get away from fossil fuel. We'll take a step back. Maybe we'll not have the electricity or the power or the things that we do now. We'll not have a flight. During the pandemic, we didn't have any flight. It didn't mean that we also eliminated from the planet. Planet went on, but in different scale, different things. So we have a technology where we don't need this fossil fuel for flying or we stop flying. We don't fly. We have to do something else. And we have to do it hard way. Oh, no, we need to go. We need the world is a big place. We have to cover all the space. We have to have meeting breakfast in one lunches in another country and that kind of thing. Then you made a decision. Your decision should be found, but this is any tech device needed will go to the sector, make it happen. And that's what it is. So I would say it can be done. And the second point I would make, if you follow all the institutions, all the policies that we have now, we cannot create the world of peace. And I make it very clear. I said, all road always will take you to the old estimation. You cannot go to a new destination with the old road. It's very clear. Everybody knows that. I said, in order to go to new destination, you have to build new roads. All roads are finished. Get it over. So now is the time to build new roads. If you want to do the making money, you have the stock market, you have the venture capitalists, you have those. Don't do a stack-to-stack activity. You can make money. First thing, you lock it up if we don't need it anymore. These are the words that took us in the wrong direction. We'll have them, all of them, everything that you did. But now in a different country, it will be social business venture capital. It will be social stock market, not the stock market to make money, the stock market to mobilize resources so that you can create more social businesses. And that's it. So we can make it happen. So we have to reverse everything. So when I created the Grameen Bank, people tell me, how did you do that? How do you make all those intricate decision-making processes, not a system, put it in place? I said, it's very simple for me. I just looked at the conventional banks, how they do it. Once I learned how they do it, I just do the opposite. And I made it happen because everything is opposite. They go to the rich, we go to the poor. They go to men, we go to women. They go to city, we go to the village. They ask for collateral. We said, no collateral. They said, people must come to the bank. We said, no, the bank must go to the people. So everything that we did is just the opposite of everything. And it worked. And it still is working. And people are not saying that, oh, no, no, it's complicated right now. They love it. Try to illustrate women in the village. They learn it right away and still continue and so on. This is the story that we are talking about. Just a few minutes back. So this is how you have to do things in reverse. If you want to create, turn around the world, which is moving to disaster of global warming, all you have to do, put it in the reverse again. Everything that you do, don't do it. Things that you didn't do, do it. And it will be there. So this is what we don't want to do it. We are always used to going to the old road. And then with all the funny statements that now we'll have a beautiful world by going this way. You're not going to have a beautiful world going there. You destroy yourself by going this way. You have to do the opposite. So anybody who's pulling you that, oh, we can do it, add all those things now, you see, we have to recognize everything. It's not about the organization. It's a new destination and the destination. So I'll put it that way. It's Einstein's problems theory. Basically, we can't solve our problems with the same thinking that we use when we create it. And we have to really think differently, think new in a totally different way, build new roads, how you so eloquently say it is absolutely correct. And everything, and I see what you've done in the books I read and in your journeys. I see that and you really not only practice what you preach and have done it and wonderful examples. I have just three last questions for you. They're all for my guests. They're kind of sustainable takeaways that have the power to change their life. If you just had one message, your message that would have the power to change my listener's life, what would it be, your message? I've said it, I will say it again. Any single person can change the whole world. And you are one of them. You can change the whole world. Believe in it. And you have the power, you never explored it. Not explored. It's like Aladdin's lamb. Aladdin's lamb, you have to know that this is Aladdin's lamb. There are lots of other lambs. But you have to know that this is Aladdin's lamb. And you are the Aladdin's lamb. And actually, now that you don't have to touch yourself, you say you are the genie of Aladdin's lamb. But nobody's ordering it, ordering the genie. So you have to order yourself to do things what you want to do. And since you are the genie, you'll get it done. And say, no, no, I'm not a genie. That means you're not aware of the power of your if you compare yourself back to two generations, three generations, you'll realize how much power you have, how much impact that you can make by your own action, that power you have. So first, feel the power in you. That yes, I have the power. Once you feel that you have the power and ask yourself the question, what use am I going to make this powerful? And that will be your answer. That this power has to be used for this purpose. So you find out power and put the use make use of that. If you don't use it, if you don't use your power, you will just waste it away. Another person born and died. That's it. Nothing to say in between, because you never use your power. But the moment you use your power, you become a unique person in this class. You use your power and change the world. And everybody will be grateful to you. So this is one thing I want you to remember that you are the most unique person. You're not just another human being. You are a unique human being with the power to change the world. What have we not been able to talk about so far that you're working on new projects, new things that you would like to depart as a message to my listeners that maybe we didn't get a touch upon today that we should know about or think about moving forward that you're doing? I'll say a few words about the young people. The young people are the real solver of the problems that we have around us because I feel that as we grew older, our minds get solidified. Our eyes start seeing the dollar sign bigger and bigger and clearer and clearer because all the inputs that we put in their head to shape that dollar sign in our eyes and our minds get around the dollar sign. So it's too late to change your eye, change your mind. Some of them may work, some of them may not work, but very, very tough job. But young people still the eyes, they have the genuine original eyes. They can see things as they are. So then how to protect them so that nobody can input this dollar sign into their eyes so that they can feel that it's a human being, I can see the whole world and feel the power inside of them. And that when I say young people, I start young people at the age of 12 because with the technology, with access to information, a 12-year-old can start thinking in a very complete way. By 15-year-old he or she is really solid person. Nobody can shake her up or shake him up. So in order to prepare for that 15-year-old, the process has to begin at 12 so that you are ready for that. Yes, I want to, I don't want my eyes to be distorted, polluted. I don't want my head, my brain to get distorted. I want to keep it open to the things that I can see. And I believe in myself, I can do things. And I work with other young people. It is very difficult to work with another generation, very rare person in another generation who can click with you. So you work with other young people. You take the leadership. When we said we need in the spaceship earth, we need all of us to be navigators. And now I put the young navigators. They see distances. You know, they are the master of the technology. Older generation doesn't have the technology. The younger generation, younger, you are more accustomed to the technology that is coming. You're so comfortable with it. You're built into that system. So you can do things if you're part of you and continue to do that. So I would hand over the world to you, leaders, to get it out of this mess that we have created for ourselves. The last question is, what have you experienced or learned in your long life so far that you wish or would have loved to know from the beginning, from the start? In the beginning, I thought people were criticizing me and opposing what I'm doing. And I was defying them. And I didn't think that many people outside really pay attention to what we did. But we saw an enormous amount of support later on when we looked back, waiting for everyone, not just in Bangladesh or anywhere else. If we knew at that time, we would feel much more bolder than we were at that time. We could have done much more bolder things at that time. Because we knew that we are not alone. There are many people in the world who do that. And we would make more complete decisions put into those work. This is one thing. And we got involved with many other things involved in that. At that time, we were hesitant. We didn't know that we were going to work out. All the things I'm talking about, social business, in healthcare, we did that right from the beginning. But again, in a very hesitant way, whether it's going to work or not. One, the success and failures, we're touching road, touching road. If you knew that what we touched is a fantastic thing, power of business, when you detach it from the profit path, it becomes such a powerful thing. And if you knew that, we were much, much bolder, much bigger things we could accomplish at that time. So again, I'm not complaining because I couldn't have known all these things at the very beginning. And I had to go through this process. Maybe that was useful to learn more as we go along. But looking back, I missed that opportunity to knowing the tremendous amount of support that people had around all the things that we did. Professor Eunice, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. It's been a sure pleasure. We could talk for hours. And I hope we see each other very soon. And I wish you all the best. Thank you very much. Have a great day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. you