 So initiation is so important for therapists to think about. And the problem I often have in the TA world, by the way, is the concept about rescuing versus initiation. So many, you know, pardon me, some TA therapists might be listening and shouting now. But anyway, those therapists that talk about rescuing, oh, we can't initiate, we can't um, XXX because that could be seen as rescuing. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode, episode 78 of The Therapy Show, behind closed doors with myself, Jackie Jones and the ever-present Mr. Bob Cook. So this one, what we're going to be talking about, Bob, I think is really interesting. It's understanding the importance of working with unmet relational needs in therapy. Absolutely. And just before I start on that, I realized, and I was talking off air to Jackie, that I'm in a very yellow room because the screen appears quite yellow in front of me. But then she said, Jackie said, perhaps I was in this way, I was sitting underneath the light or not underneath the light. But either way, if it's if it's a bit yellow, forgive me. But let's move on to the the subject. Now, you know, when people come in, when clients come into my therapy room or Jackie's therapy room or any of the therapy rooms, if you like, they come with problems in life. They're usually about functioning, either themselves and their quality of life is diminished or communication has broken down with their partners or other people or friendships or work. And that's usually why they've come to therapy or they've come to therapy because of tremendous trauma and neglect or had a history, which has not helped them be the way they want to be in life today. So they've come into the therapy room. And if part of this, when you do the formulation and the analysis, therapists will be looking at how the past affects the present. And when we talk about past what we're talking about is how are how how we've grown up and how we survived and how we've adapted to get our needs met. And that has played out today with relationships, friendships, and in fact, in the therapy room. So we may or so any therapist will be making analysis and formulations about that. And one of the things I always look for is relational needs. In other words, when the person's growing up as the younger self, how, you know, has their basic needs for security, for example, for safety, for definition, for uniqueness being met? Have that been stroked or has that been accounted for? Because if those basic needs for security, for safety, for definition from a positive weather, for mutuality hasn't been met, then we grow up deprived. And usually our mental health has been really affected. So I'm always looking for how a person has got by in life early on, especially if those basic needs for security and safety hasn't been met. I mean, your job, I don't know if you still do, Jack, it could be used to foster a lot of, you know, I don't know what age group you dealt with either. What I do know is that you will have attended almost automatically, hopefully from your own positive parenting, you will have been very aware of helping them have a secure environment, a safe place to be able to play in. Helping them be around people who have been on the same journeys as themselves, looking at self definition, these sorts of things. And that's what I mean by relational needs. And then you will help them, help those needs be met if you want to put it that way. Yeah, I think I was still fostering when I started my psychotherapy training and I can remember feeling full of hope when I was doing it because we learned that, you know, if our relational needs weren't met when we were younger, that through therapy and connection and all those sorts of things, that we can learn how to get our needs met as an adult. So it's kind of like filling in those missing blocks from our early childhood. Yeah, so relational needs to spell them out again, the basic ones are for security. So when you talk about security, that means a person has a secure, safe place to be able to express themselves, to be able to feel safe to be themselves in, to not feel that they're being threatened or persecuted or they haven't got a home to be in. So, you know, how that translates into the therapy room is that if the therapy isn't doesn't take place in a secure setting, that means where there's confidentiality, where the doors are closed, where the place has got a safe place in it for people to be in, then therapy won't happen. Yeah. Effectively, because the component will feel scared and closed down. So if a person has been brought up where they don't feel secure in just being in life, they will grow up defending against that. In other words they'll grow up usually repressing part of themselves, because they haven't been in a secure environment to allow themselves to be themselves. Yeah. Why I thought of fostering is because, and this may be a miscomprehension, so just let me know, but when I think of people who'd be, you know, fostering kids, whatever age particularly, the children that you're going to foster by definition, and please tell me if I'm incorrect, are going to be people who usually have been in situations of perhaps high neglect or situations where they've been abandoned or situations where they've had lots of grief or situations where they haven't felt secure or situations where there's been attachment ruptures. Is that right? Yeah, 100% everyone. Yeah. And you know, we foster mainly teenage boys that it was quite difficult to get underneath that because they would often come out fighting and it was misconstrued, you know what I mean? A lot of it was anxiety and exactly what you're saying, feeling unsafe. So when you say, when you say coming out fighting, I think you mean resistance to attachment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, literally. I'm going to be the one that is in control here. I'm not going to connect or get attached to you because you're going to abandon me. You're going to go just like everybody else has. And so they're so, so their relational need for a significant other person is not there. Yeah. So they grow up in an alien world. In other words, what I mean by that is they've had to become a self-reliant loner and they've closed down and they don't expect a person to stay around and show them any care, consideration and love. So they fight against the attachment. Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, 100%. So for me, consistency was what I was doing, you know, the same things over and over and just being consistent. And particularly, you know, I can remember with one, if I said I was going to be there to pick him up at half past three, I literally had to be there at half past three or before. Yeah. So you are helping them meet the meet the unmet relational need for a caring, secure, safe other that will stay around. Yeah. Yeah. Because if that hasn't been met, then they have real, they may have real problems when they grow up and having relationships with other people, friendships, lovers, carers, whatever you like, because they won't expect a secure attachment relationship. They'll expect the opposite, which is abandon and neglect. So they'll lack trust, they'll lack the basic relational needs to be successful in relationships. Yeah. So you're helping them meet a need that hadn't been met before from consistency and security and safety and loving from a person who would stay around. Yeah. This is why I mean when we talk about relational needs, because if these haven't been met or attended to, then the person adapts the only way they know how to. And in the way you spoke a moment how I see it, they come out fighting in relationships. Yeah. Really, they're fighting to be not in a relationship. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is why I love the relational needs because ultimately, that's what we all want is our needs to be met. You know, and being aware that we all have needs and it's how each individual goes about getting them met because our behaviour is different. So we all kind of display it in a unique way, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's very much sense. And I think it really translates into the therapy room. Yeah. Because if the therapist can think about the things we are talking about and think about the attachments issues and think about the ruptures to attachment, then they will understand not only the healing that needs to take place, but how to work with the client to get a healthy attachment. Yeah. Now, I think you only get that, by the way. I think you only get the healthy attachment if you attend to the relational needs that haven't been met. Yeah. Because otherwise, they come out very guarded and your words fighting maybe. So to say those clients who come and presented very withdrawn, very cut off fragmented parts of the self, and healthy attachment with the therapist will take a long time, unless the therapist thinks about, I think, these things in the clinical way we're talking here. Yeah. And I agree. There's a lot of testing goes on in the therapy room by the clients. Can I trust you when you say and you behave in a certain way? Because for me, it's about, I know I said consistency, but a lot of the things around safety and security is about inconsistent parenting. Parents that dip in and dip out or that aren't emotionally available for you. Not saying it just happens with foster kids. You can live in a normal family, but yet your parents not be emotionally available for you, so you don't feel safe and secure. No. And if those relational needs aren't attended to, then we have a perfect ground for poor mental health. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. Now, this is really important for therapy. It's really important for a therapist to think the way we are talking, because they need to give the client a second chance. Yeah. Healthy way. Yeah. And not see their behavior as pathological in some way. Yeah. For me, one of the things I learned quite early on with the fostering is that often people use behavior as a way of communication. It's about looking what's behind the behavior, not on face value, because with the fostering, there was a lot of hate and a lot of venom there, but it's what's behind that. What are they trying to communicate with me? They are feeling unsafe. They don't trust me. You're right. And one of the pivotal jobs for any therapist is to decode the language of the client. Yeah. Which can be really difficult because there's so many layers to it. It's a protection mechanism, a lot of it. Of course. But if you don't think this way, if you don't think about attachment theory, if you don't think about relational need theory, then it's harder. Yeah. Basically, it's more hard. It's more difficult for the therapist. Yeah. And like you said, I know you just touched on it at the beginning about what we got recognition for when we were growing up. If what we got recognition for was by being stoic and taking care of ourselves and not being demanding and not looking for our needs to be met, then that's the behavior that we're going to show as an adult. 100%. That's absolutely. And I had a pretty difficult history and I went into therapy myself from a very lost position at 34. And you know, if I hadn't gone into therapy, I don't think I would have had much chance for healthy, consistent relationships. And I certainly wouldn't be the person that I am today. But the therapist to have an understanding of the things we're talking about to really make the first steps to initiate the lost child inside myself. Yeah. So initiation is so important for therapists to think about. And the problem I often have in the TA world, by the way, is the concept about rescuing. Yes. Initiation. So many, you know, part of me is some TA therapist might be listening and shouting now. But anyway, those therapists that talk about rescuing, oh, we can't initiate. We can't XXX because that could be seen as rescuing. Well, I think I want to give a plea for initiation. Hmm. That doesn't mean I don't understand the concept of rescuing. But I also think so many lost younger cells in the client, if you like, never get reached. Yeah. The therapist initiates because initiation is really, really important and vital. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, the client stays lost all the time. Yeah. If you can wait, you can wait forever for the scared child to come out. But if you could wait a thousand years, Jackie. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. But it's a way of, you know, encouraging self-esteem and self-worth and everything in the other person if we initiate the connection. Yeah. Hmm. Even if it's only say, how are you? What's happening inside? I experienced you as quite quiet and I was wondering, what are you thinking at the moment? Or what are you feeling at the moment? You know, what's happening in your world? Just those transactions are initiative, are initiating or at least the potential of a conversation. Yeah. External one, I mean, as opposed to an internal one. Yeah. And for the client to feel seen and heard, that goes a million miles in the therapy room if they've not had it in the past. Often it feels uncomfortable to start off with, but the more it's done, the more normal it becomes, which that's what we want in relationships to be seen and heard and valued and all those things. And the only big one is love. Yeah. The relational need to express love. Yeah. Now, when I talk about love, love can be simply a caringness to say, how are you? What's happening for you? Yeah. Oh, where are you at the moment? You know, it doesn't have to be, I'm going to marry you. Yeah. You know, I'm talking about care, love by intent, if not expression. They're things which I hope anyone listening here will take account of in the therapy room. Yeah. And it is, it's a buildup. It's not like throwing this all at the clients in the first sessions. I mean, it's going to be overwhelming for them. But again, it's about being mindful of that throughout. Yeah. To have a clinical thought and to think about attachment theory, to think about unmet relational needs, to think about security, think about safety, to think about self-definition, to think about permissions, to think about mutuality, to think about the expression of love, to think about all these things perhaps the child never had. Yeah. So we can think about how we can address that. Yeah. It's such an important template for the third best, I believe. Yeah, me too. I love the relational needs and looking at, you know, the impact of not having them. And how, I know I said it earlier, how uniquely we defend against that or adapt our own behaviour in search of that. That's a bit what you've just said there. And the vain hope that there can be some positive connection. Yeah. If you've never had that positive connection, you know, what takes place of that positive connection, by the way, is as an inward longing that gnaws away, gnaws away. And, you know, maybe hope is very dangerous and wonderful world, but I think that yearning, dire, there's something positively different to take place of that, you know, that destruction inside is important. Yeah. A therapist to think about. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, this is, it's a need that we all have. It's not a want. It's not a desire. It's an innate need in us to have connection to have this. Yeah. Yeah. To have somebody to care about what's happening on the inside, to have somebody to care about putting in place a safe environment, to put an emphasis on security, to put an emphasis on what's happening for you at the moment, and to help and to think about safe environments. And then we can start thinking about self definition. Because if somebody has been defined by the other person all their life, little self-esteem has gone out of the window. Yeah. Yeah. Unself-worth, unself-love, unself-everything, really. Yeah. Yeah. You become a self-online loner because, or, you know, you said going out fighting, that could be one way, but you've never been, never been allowed the space to define yourself, whatever that means for the kind. Then you usually, actually, withdraw. Yeah. Yeah. And we saw that as well. To me, that was harder to manage as a foster carer than when they came out, you know, spitting feathers and aggressive and everything. Because at least there was a connection there, even if it was an aggressive, angry connection. But when a child completely withdraws and there's nothing, it's very, very difficult to try and make a connection. Yes. And I think, yeah, there's nothing, or stroke and Jackie, there appears there's nothing. Yeah. I think it's important for the therapist to always have in the mind that even though, you know, the lack of connection, the passivity, the appearingness of nothing doesn't mean there isn't nothing. No. No. I hear what you're saying because I hear completely what you're saying because at least if somebody's giving you something, like you just talked about, and connection has a chance. Yeah. If the client has a business where I'm not going to give you anything, and withdraws so much into themselves, connections are much harder. Yeah. I'll tell you, the way through is initiation, initiation, initiation. Now, of course, I understand that the other person might feel that it's overwhelming, overwhelming retreat further. This is initiation step by step. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking when you were saying that about, you know, if the person is completely withdrawn and shut down in the therapy room. The big step is that they actually came to therapy in the first place. Do you know what I mean? Because otherwise they wouldn't have made the appointment, they wouldn't have turned up. So there's definitely a feeling of need and want for connection for them to do it. Absolutely. Absolutely, there is. Yeah. It's such an interesting topic. It really is. And like I said, for me, it's about the hope that the building blocks can be put back in place over time. Oh, you know, 100% they can, but the needs to be, I believe, the needs to be the motivation, energy and desire by the therapist to go the extra mile and not give up on the... Yeah. Because it's not about us in the therapy room. No. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes it is really difficult when you're not getting anything back from a client, you know, that you're racking your brains and take it personally and all those sorts of things, but we've got to get our ego out of the way because it's not about us in the therapy room. You couldn't have said a more wise sentence to construction. And even though it takes me a long time to move my ego out, you are totally correct because unless I can do that, what I mean by that is not making assumptions. Yeah. For example, checking things out with what's happening with the other person. That's the way forward. Yeah. What an interesting conversation, Bob. Yeah. And, you know, it's probably, I just hope people listening can reflect and think about the template we're talking about because it will really be in service of the client, I think. Yeah. And, you know, I think attachment theory and relational needs. I know Richard Erskine, who I was trained by a lot in my later years, talks a lot about relational needs and has written a lot about eight specific relational needs, which I've mentioned on this podcast. And if you put Richard Erskine, you'll, we've written nine books and many of them talk about relational needs. But, you know, within that is also attachment theory. And without thinking about templates this way, then you won't, you will feel like, I don't know what templates you would think about. But thinking about attachment theory and thinking about relational needs gives you a different perception of way of thinking about things in service of the client, which is what we're talking about here. Yeah. And it's the basic, like, you know, from the moment we're born, it's all about getting our needs met. That's, you know, literally it's from the minute we pop out. That's our sole purpose in life to survive and get our needs met. You are correct. And it takes two. Yeah. Yes. That is the important part. Yeah. That is the important part. I've watched many of Richard Erskine's book, I think one of my mom watching it was called Frozen Planet 2. Yes. Yeah. And it was what it was about the Arctic. It was about how, you know, babies survive in the most amazingly hostile conditions. But, and this is it, they don't survive without the help of the mother and the father in some ways. Now, if the same, so we've transferred to what we're talking about here, the baby comes out. Yes, for mental health or all the things we're talking about, emotional health, we need the significant other people to pay attention, care and love, and everything as we've been talking about, so the baby can thrive. Yeah. If some of those poses are missing, the client adapts to attempt to find those needs to be met in some way. If not, they'll go inside, protect themselves, and part of their vitality and emotional health will be severely damaged in life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's so important, like you said, you know, if you have this at the back of your mind. And, you know, I completely agree with what you were saying earlier on about, you know, initiation slash rescuing, you know what I mean? Is that a healthy thing to do in therapy or not? And I'm 100% with you on that. Wonderful podcast. Yes. Another one, you do come up with some wonderful titles. Next one here, we're quite organised. I'm laughing because often you have these podcasts saying, what are we going to talk about next, Bob? Oh, I know. We'll have it as a surprise. So anyway, let's cut through that. What is the next one? The next one is therapy past, present and the future. Oh, wow. I must say, I must tell, that's a wonderful title. They're all wonderful, and you come up with every single one of them, Bob. Yeah. I just like that one anyway. Yeah. So that's what we're doing, Episode 79, therapy past, present and the future. Did I hear that correct? Did you say 79? 79. Wow, my God. I don't know when we actually started these podcasts, but that's, I'm quite proud of us there. So I'll tell you when we started it. When was it? It was 79 weeks ago, next week. Oh, well, I'm even more proud of ourselves then. Yes, it is. Right, until next time, Bob. Thank you so much. Yeah, take care. Bye-bye. Take care. You've been listening to The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.