 Terima kasih, semua. Jika kita tidak berjumpa lagi, kita akan mulakan. Kita tidak boleh menunggu. Kita perlu tahu lebih banyak tentang es dan semua pelanggan di sini. Jadi, kita ada Shilin, dan Surya dan Pt. Jadi, jika anda boleh beritahu kami beberapa perkara, saya akan beritahu anda. Jika anda beritahu kami beberapa perkara, beritahu kami lebih banyak tentang diri anda. Okey. Hai, saya Shilin. Saya seorang pembangunan UIA dan saya adalah CEO. Saya mempunyai sebagai penyelidik dan pembangunan ketika saya berminat. Apa yang saya ingin tahu adalah saya mempunyai penyelidik dan penyelidik. Saya ingin beritahu Surya tentang penyelidik saya. Penyelidik saya. Saya cuba tahu bagaimana untuk membuat penyelidik sekolah. Jadi, itu seperti begini dari inspirasi saya. Sebenarnya, saya selalu mempunyai penyelidik kami bermain dengan perkara mekanik. Dan menguruskan bagaimana perkara yang berlaku. Jadi, ketika saya berminat, saya sedang pergi ke sekolah junior untuk belajar penyelidik penyelidik. Dan mereka memulangkan saya dengan C++ yang bukan idea yang terbaik untuk saya. Tapi saya memulangkan perkara yang terbaik untuk saya. Tapi ketika saya memulangkan perkara, perkara yang berlaku dengan saya, saya rasa saya boleh melakukannya. Jadi itu adalah cara saya memulangkan perkara yang berlaku. Dan saya tidak pernah memulangkan perkara yang berlaku sehingga saya memulangkan perkara. Saya bergerak sehingga saya memulangkan perkara yang berlaku. Saya mengalami perkara dan mencuba perkara baru untuk membuat penyelidik penyelidik. Tapi itu adalah apabila EF baru memulangkan di Singapura dan mereka mencari orang untuk memulangkan EF dan suatu perniagaan dan beberapa perniagaan. Selama itu, saya memulangkan 25, dan Mary yang adalah penyelidik penyelidik penyelidik. Dia beritahu saya, Hey, kenapa tidak, penyelidik penyelidik, anda muda dengan 25, tidak ada penyelidik penyelidik penyelidik. Jadi saya berfikir, Hei, kenapa tidak? Jika ia tidak berlaku, ia hanya berlaku untuk saya. Jika ia tidak berlaku, ia masih berlaku untuk saya. Jadi itu adalah jalan saya. Hai, semua. Saya Sufi dan saya tidak memulangkan perkara. Saya memulangkan perkara yang sedap di sini dan di sana, tetapi bagian saya adalah penyelidik penyelidik penyelidik dan penyelidik penyelidik penyelidik. Saya melihat selama 3 atau 4 tahun yang berkongsi, microan, terutamanya di luar penyelidik penyelidik. Jadi, sangat sedap, saya memulangkan Fire Vizal juga dengan EF, kota ke-3 EF. Saya melihat itu kerana saya melihat kapan di penyelidik penyelidik. Dan saya percaya bahawa penyelidik penyelidik penyelidik mengalami teknologi. Jadi saya cuba membawa teknologi yang itu untuk penyelidik penyelidik. Dan saya menghubungkan kerja saya untuk memulangkan perniagaan yang memperkenalkan banyak penyelidik penyelidik penyelidik. Tapi pada akhir hari ini, ia sangat mudah bahawa saya mempunyai kerana ia seperti, kita beri masa 3 bulan, kemudian, sehingga, kenapa saya tidak hanya membuatnya? Dan kemudian, akhirnya, saya memulangkan kerja saya dan memulangkan perniagaan. Dan sehingga, ia telah, saya rasa, ia telah memulangkan perniagaan. Jadi, saya juga sangat ingin memulangkan perniagaan. Hai, saya B.T. Dan saya memulangkan perniagaan dengan perniagaan saya. Jadi, apa yang kita lakukan adalah membantu perniagaan yang lebih tinggi daripada talian teknologi. Dan kita memulangkan untuk memulangkan penyelidik penyelidik penyelidik Jika ada banyak perniagaan, apabila menolakkan perniagaan, semua anak tahu kita semua mengelan-lasi perniagaan dan kesepaikan agaknya penyelidik penyelidik. Jadi, hal yang saya beritahu adalah kerana, kami langsung mengubah perniagaan dengan jenis teman-teman yang berasal untuk melakukan ini, yang mencubah perniagaan. Sebaik saja, apabila penjara itu mengubah, saya tidak akan mempunyai detik penyelidik penyelidik, sehingga tinggal dengan suatu orang. Bukan kemudian, sehingga, apabila mereka telah membina, dan saya merasakan So, first question for you, how did the idea for your business come about? So, the idea for UICS and what we basically do is to automate UI testing for web applications. So, Chrome, Firefox on the edge, Safari, Safari Mobile, etc, etc. We tested on all their solutions and basically the idea came about was because when I was looking at my previous setup, I had the reason why I got my first place was because the way we were testing and deploying and releasing new updates on software was very broken. So, I was up at 2am where all the users are sleeping and I would just be ready to press a button that says deploy to deploy everything to serve to a production. Now, the problem is we had some testers in Vietnam who were doing the manual testing and in a very creative process, whenever we finished our work as developers reported to the testers, they would say they would take one day to finish testing it. Of course, as the application got more and more complex, it took longer and longer to get for them to complete the testing cycle and then we had two guys. So, eventually, Vox was getting released into production because the deadline was fixed, we had to push out anyway. So, what the manager decided to do was oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, before you press the button, let me do some last-minute checks. The last-minute checks is like from the stretchers from 30 minutes to 1 hour to 2 hours, and eventually I was up at 6am and say hello, Vox, I still need to see you tomorrow morning, you know. So, I didn't try to propose to the development team and the testing team and pretty much the manager and say let's start automating testing. Let's try unit integration testing, UI testing. So, I sneaked in a little bit of all the different kinds of tests into our software as I'm doing my normal regular development work. So, I realized that one of the things that was harder to test and harder to teach my manual testing colleagues in Vietnam was how to automate UI testing because the way that we write the UI test is that every time you write a UI test it's bound to the exact implementation of the UI. So, if that UI change for any reason, if the design change or if the developer or your test break, they will just rewrite 20 tests for that particular UI itself. So, it's very unmaintainable. So, that's when we decided that we need to change the tooling, the developer tooling for UI testing and we rebuilt Selenium from scratch. So, that's basically how the idea came about. So, for me, it's actually similar. It came from the factory floor itself whereby whenever a part fail, like any part that is manufactured, let's say this phone or iCG inside it, whenever it fails, the company loses a lot of money on that. So, from top down, there's a whole lot of pressure on the engineers to figure out why did it fail. And then we should end up getting in a lot of bad meetings and you're watching the shouting, can you analyze this data, maybe look at what variables are changing here, what is happening on that machine. So, in different variables to figure out and you can't figure out and the line is burning because the issue still exists there and the company still losing money on the part failure. So, that's why I decided to start this company in manufacturing because I had personally experienced for three to four years that this was a problem that could be solved with being able to automate the data cleaning and data processing and producing those results for engineers and also building predictive systems based on the insights of the engineers. So, I was giving these insights to let's say my bosses, my colleagues, maybe I was putting it up in PowerPoint but I wasn't really recording it in let's say neural net which understands that. So, that's what we decided to build if there was a system that understands this engineering insight and understands the data you can produce these results much faster and you know the company still losing so much money on the part failures so many defects will happen and most importantly process engineers like myself will have a better life they will get to concentrate on making actual engineering changes in the line and not just putting out fires. So, that's how the idea came along. In a few years we was offering the both sides in getting interviews and being in those uncomfortable situations and also the other side where helping a few companies hire their first few technical hires both me and Michael what about like, we had different opinions but similar ideas on what the hiding and interview experience should be and we've also seen a lot of our really, really smart friends from IIT not get through interviews just because how badly the process is designed this kind of just the fact that how ridiculous coding does today are because they asked for questions that are close to no correlation with what you will be doing on the job so and that needed to change which is why we started the company So, you have this idea you're not hate and what actually made you decide that this is the right time to do it that, you know, what we should actually decide to leave a stable job and actually take a plunge and start company forming myself I didn't mention that I was really burnt out but there was also another reason why I decided that I wanted to take a plunge and do my own thing so, I think for me growing up I all ever wanted to my dream career is just I want to bring value to people of human beings, not to communities and the company that I was working for was building advertising technology so I was like, I don't like advertisements I don't know why I'm creating a platform to serve advertisements to people so when I quit my job I was freelancing for a minute I was hunting for jobs I just keep flipping throughout the job and somehow it didn't really stick to me like this and I was like, somewhat I don't really feel see myself adding value to people I feel like I'll be a calling from you so when EF told me there's an opportunity for you to work on something new and work on a problem that is very interesting like the environment the education or health then I just thought this is an opportunity for me to choose my destiny and he yeah, I don't know why but it started because in a way I always knew I wanted to start a company the funny thing is at the point when I quit everything was great at my job like my boss was amazing another female mechanical engineer who basically scrolled her way up to the managerial position and yeah, my boss was great pay was good I was very satisfied with the kind of engineering project that I was implementing a lot of automation systems and things like that but yeah, in the back of my head I always knew I wanted to start a company and I had started mentally sort of picturing what idea I wanted to work on and that's the reason I actually came to EF with that idea and yeah, it was just mostly because I couldn't get it out of my head and EF platform itself helped a lot in the sense that even if you quit you don't basically fall onto nothing you still have start going to support you over 3 months and then you still have the chance of building a relevant company and the process is accelerated so I thought yeah, what do I have to lose I yeah, actually that was the thought what do I have to lose even if I do it and I couldn't get the thought out of my head so might as well do it now rather than any other time there was no such thing at the right time but it is kind of an amazing time to be as often as you are in Banglok you get paid more than you can possibly spend but the good thing is or I'm sure that's doing most parts of the world but the good thing is that even if things don't work out because it might not but the worst case scenario is sorted because you will have a few job offers per day you decide you want the job again so there is very much nothing to lose especially for software engineers so it just makes sense otherwise a good friend of mine who was in the previous cohort he kind of soar me but he is trying it out for 3 months and just seeing where it worked out so some of you like to be you have been thinking about starting your own company for a while some of you have just got into it what was the one thing that really surprises you most about starting a company there were a lot of things that surprised me a lot I think the one thing that surprised me was that I actually didn't realize that I was such a strong person it was a bit self-competition I usually don't do this but you know there was a lot of times when I actually whined and complained to my CTO I also whined and complained to our investors who confirm me to be able to do it I will think of a creative way to get us out of these difficult times I just realized that I am actually stronger than I thought I would even I look at myself 2 years back if I look at myself 2 years in the future I can't believe I think for me I was surprised by the fact that it's not that difficult like you hear horrible stories and you are known it's the most difficult thing to do ever even on that difficult speaking to deadlines in a 9-5 can be more difficult for some people so yeah I think that was the most surprising part it wasn't that difficult as I thought it was so basically when you get into that the default is that you are going to fail because you know 10% startups are successful at best so when you start from that default it's easier so anything that's happening above that level I think that's better than that is by the point of echo situations so you know that helped basically so yeah that was the surprising part for me I think it would be kind of covered it really is not that difficult and the other part is just I feel like it's slightly addictive so every day you will go through irrespective of how well it's going there will be some way you want it to and some days you will think why am I doing this but it's just the next day you will just not the thought of quitting will not come to you just because of how addictive it is just that lifestyle the way of thinking okay okay okay okay we will cover that why don't we very quick introduction again so PSNES we run a 6 month program that helps people suffer so what that means is we will fund you like the venture capital fund even before you have a team or an idea on the basis that the program that all these women went through actually helps them we help them find an idea we help them build an idea so you should be an entity so okay okay so so in this type of business i'm sure you have sought a lot of advice and people have given you a lot of advice so what was the one piece of advice that you think is the best advice one of the best piece of advice was actually mental advice on don't listen to every advice listen to your instinct and then if that person is advising you you must think about whether that person is the correct person to advise you because somehow i realise as an entrepreneur you go wrong like people just like giving you advice a lot and it's a lot of unsuscitated unwanted advice and sometimes they are very terrible advice so there's one time i was telling all my mentors person say this and that person say that but it's conflicting and not exactly sure whether what is the correct thing that i should do and then she just tell me shouldn't you just think about who's advice is correct and use your gut instinct is that person giving you the good and correct advice so that was like the best advice so listen to everyone be the best advice so far and be ready to zero your goal so it's important because if you are like me you'll probably kill yourself if you are with the wrong co-founder and it can make or break a lot of things for you you'll be working with that person 15 plus hours a day at times so it's really important but if you choose a co-founder choose somebody who you are happy working with i think that was the best advice so far there might be better ones moving forward but until now if i look back, that was the best advice i don't remember where i came from so i like to give myself credit so yeah whenever the unaccompanied decision the way i like to think about it is just play the worst case scenario in my head and just see what's the worst that can happen and it makes much, much easier because once you know that the worst case scenario isn't that bad or it's at least better than where you currently are you know that it just makes sense that and there was one more which said don't make advice from anybody you wouldn't want to swap places with i think that is amazing advice it's not a lot of best advice but it's the worst advice one of the worst advice i've ever got it's like why don't you outsource your tag to vietnamese hello the technology we are building is an asset it's not a concept i need to communicate everyday with the engineers and we have moved very, very fast are you kidding me for me it was not an advice it was just more of a question why aren't you building grab something something that you need to see so yeah i think that was the worst advice P2B has its own pluses and it has huge problems to solve i think that was the worst advice slash comments why you're not building grab i don't have a specific snippet but usually anything that you don't want to play it safe or not taking the risk is usually terrible i'm sure there's lots of ups and downs you know what is it that keeps you motivated what motivates you one of my key motivating do to people so whenever i do a demo to people especially on the phone i run a test on the phone so if your website has a bug or your website is working their eyes will pop out but other times i talk to customers sit down and look at the test and they write more and more sophisticated test and they say this is very easy for me all the reports are very good actually it brings value to people actually makes people's life easier and helping them communicate better and that gave me waking up the next day this customer tell me they want this feature i'm going to get the team to work on it next that's why i wake up every day i think similar being able to build something that is of value and helping someone is enough motivation and you make money out of it as well i think one of the most important things that in fact somebody is like the most is where you work just because of the circumstances of what we're building at outer base sometimes that helps a candidate who wouldn't have landed a job get a job that they would really like and help like a company find and only employ which can potentially change in all the company's direction and whether the company makes it or not and just knowing that we're enabling that in some form is probably the most probably the reason i i'm inspired by what i'm doing it's great that you all get the motivation from your products so what is it that you find as a favourite aspect of being an entrepreneur or what is it that a satisfying moment for you other than other than showing off our product actually i feel very proud of my employees me and my co-founder we are the senior engineers in our company senior engineers are very hard to hire they are expensive as well they are also very nitpicky about the culture and what kind of benefits you have and you're not at that kind of stage but you can provide that kind of luxury yet so we hire junior engineers and then we know that for 6 months they wouldn't be able to catch up so we already would be back to train them for 6 months so 6 months later i saw how they were progressing i went to ask my CEO and he was like we feel very proud of ourselves for training our employees to get to a new level of course they have their own anxieties i feel like i'm not progressing fast and they don't worry i think you're progressing very fast faster than me so i can you repeat the question i might have missed parts of it what is your favourite aspect similar to shooting sunset impacting lives in my own in my own way in the sense that before this yes i would have people reporting to me in the corporate structure but now i'm doing a full cycle whereby i'm actually meeting people, talking to people getting them onboarded in the company getting feedback on them about their everyday experiences one of them actually said a few days back i feel like i love working here because it's so different and much more open than it used to be in the previous company so that part is really good for anybody i think being able to impact at least a few lives in our own way is the best part very similar being able to create a significant change in at least one person's life i think that makes the company successful and what everybody involved the time of everybody involved so yeah so all of you have been new and short period of time that you have settled your own companies but how has it affected your life thanks, i have no life actually it's really really really hard to balance how has that affected my life it completely turns my personal life outside i still have very good relationship because my friends and my family they are very understanding in fact most of my everyone in my family has been an entrepreneur so they were very very understanding of where i am but i still feel very guilty that i don't stand up have enough family diners i don't go back to see my niece i actually worry that the family knock at school i worry about my friends who have gotten married and baby they got anxiety i don't call them so if they can't i also cannot figure out so that's how my life has been turn around i always had a problem balancing so that's for new but in general i think i can prioritize according to me now more than before so that's a good thing personally another thing is yes it's a lot of work like you'll be spending early mornings doing things sometimes in between baby events having a very solid understanding partner definitely helped and thankfully i was done i was done basically finding a partner i don't know if i would have time but just saying but yeah that was good my family support it because my father is himself having a supportive family in general helped a lot so personally it did change the timings that i worked working more hours now but i still try to find time to at least have a certain fixed schedule for some activity that i want to do every week i guess you just have to stick to it and work around that let go of things then they will go and yes i also find it difficult to catch up with other family members and my old friends but they do understand what i'm doing and whenever i catch up with them so it's a balancing out app it's not easy but you will still want to do it as long as you can stay on the right side of sanity i think it's a good thing because most of your life is governed depending on the kind of business you are in most of your life is governed by what your customers are currently asking for which means that your business is doing well and it's a good thing so as leaders or we leaders do you have any ideas and how do you define success i do some i don't know i think i'm a little bit romantic in a sense that i think my idea is cross national happiness i really my objective is we can feel our stomachs and try to aim at the same area as possible not just to not just to customers employees for me i always think of building a company like gathering so growing and cultivating employees but beyond that also extending it to the committee so for us the committee that our company have existed developer committee as well that i try to work to as far as my ideas when i think about how which direction should we go for me it's actually the company motto as well it's be lel so lel is modification of lel what that means is be weird just be have fun because work and starting a company and being the initial company is stressful as it is so for the rest of the time try to have as much fun as you can and that's actually where you part of the culture that you want to build in the company moving forward as well so that would be it's not very glorious but it helps me live everyday so be lel is the motto i haven't been a very sad person so i think it's most important to optimize for your own happiness first and i we all believe that i think that only when you've figured out your own happiness and you are a happy person you can figure out how to optimize happiness around you so the most important thing is just to be well and to figure out what you want from life and then just strive towards doing that seems like oh you have very down to earth i think what do you think i mean we are all so what do you think is the difference between the technology and the set i think the main answer is that you are building a company around technology but actually there is more to be a technology than a simple entrepreneur because when you are building a product around technology you have to manage engineers you have to manage R&D, intellectual property you need to be understanding what is the value of technology and to be able to correctly protect your intellectual property so that's something more than a food entrepreneur unless it's a food tech entrepreneur there's something more and the interesting thing about building a technology company is that technology has the power to scale out very fast by its own nature when you are building a technology company it's very likely everything about how you are going to scale from day one i think one of the major differences is that you have to manage talent which is very sought after in the marketing general so if you are building a tech company you have to make sure that you are actually bringing something of value in your everyday work atmosphere to the people that are working for you and for the company because they are some of the most sort of people out there so i think that is one of the big differences managing people who are more sought after than usual say anybody who is kind of playing out of the 9 to 5 whenever else would actually accept life is kind of not enough but the difference technology can bring today what it is because it's really present and you cannot be so technology can create much more global impact and depending on the type of company you're building you can impact the lives of the people across the globe which is slightly difficult without the technology aspect thank you very much for sharing your experience and your stories so i would like to end with asking one last question for those of us who are thinking of starting our own business but still sitting on the fence i'm not sure about it yet what is the one piece of advice you would give us i get that question a lot actually i think the way i was thought to rationalize it she gave me a very logical way i was thinking about opportunity cost if you are leaving a job to do your own business then you are stopping your career you are also leaving lucrative salary lucrative potential salary so what is the opportunity cost of starting the business climbing career level and as far as if you think of opportunity cost as well your company personal life if you are going to start your career you are going to sacrifice a lot of time on that kind of thing social opportunity cost so when i thought about it i'm 25, i'm young i'm very very employable so if i leave this job and if the company burns down i'm still very employable so very low opportunity cost that's basically it low opportunity cost if i did not start the company no i mean if i did and very high opportunity cost if i did not start the company and yeah it all boils down to what do you have to lose if you don't take a chance now because we'll all be taking calculated risks in some form or the other so when you're investing let's say your money somewhere again buying bitcoin you're taking a calculated risk why not do it with your career if you're thinking about it if you have fairly good profile you are employable anywhere just do it when you think you can't get the idea out of your head you don't have that as much as you think you do i actually thought about it for the longest time like 3-6 months before i actually quit that's how long i thought about it but some people take even longer but in the end i figured out that is what i have to do and then i did it and i don't think i mean the company turned out really well but even if i had not i would not have regretted this experience because there's just so much to learn so many new things that you go through otherwise i wouldn't have gone through the hiring process from scratch i wouldn't have been meeting all these company CEOs and CTOs on a daily basis i wouldn't know how to raise money for a startup i wouldn't be doing these things if i didn't quit that day so in the end the learning is super high whatever you have to lose is low so why not just do it i think it depends very early on the kind of education you have and that decides how to check the excuses but i think for most people it's most excuses are not really valid there are very few people for whom it really isn't like a good time and they might have a better time but for everybody else who has the age they should just think about that they're going to die as a point and other than that just the fact that the opportunity cost as they mentioned it's very high the worst case scenario and the best case scenario it's like high risk high reward basically the higher amount of risks you take the higher you have a chance of going forward the only good thing about this particular kind of risk is that the worst case scenario is also pretty sorted out ok, thank you very much i would like to now open the questions to the blog can you believe? i just want to know whether business development is more comfortable because both have to go hand in hand so sometimes like product tweaks and things like that has to go with what the customer needs but that might not be the best thing from a development perspective but that might not be what the company has planned initially or what they have in mind initially so yeah it's a balance between the two both are tough and not tough equally balancing our part is a tough effort go ahead shout it's for your sa'am financially right now which means how you very much important is it supported by family investment so for for me personally i worked 3 years as a software engineer so i had a small bit of savings but us for EF itself they gave us a cycle so that it makes us very comfortable especially if you are a fresh graduate they wouldn't have any savings before because they never worked so that actually brings in a lot of graduates into EF itself but they know that once you you found a really great idea and you really want to start company for us like EF does bringing connections to investors and the network is ready so it's very important to build up a network great entrepreneurs great investors our best investors actually came from angels and they some of them are strategic so some of them are small angels but very valuable insights some of them are bigger angels and it's just it's all depends a lot there's many ways to go about it so for us we went we had a lot of angel backing us I want to ask now since everyone's company been going really well if there's a big company want to buy the product or company do you sell it? then we have to I mean it really depends on what the intentions are with regards to the company whether it's already like a big player the reason we started the company is because we don't agree with their way of interviewing so it might or might not make sense and it's something that we figured out at that point like so far nobody has if you're keen, we can chat later so my question is when you were starting a company all the list would be involved so looking back what was the one thing that you wish that you can consider what was the one thing that you made big mistake if you could go back to that so the things that I had a hunch about I should have acted on it sooner like for example again I'll bring back the corner point whereby EF has this I mean EF has this method whereby we look for cornerstone within the cohort I should have sort of stopped working with somebody sooner if that didn't work out so that is one of the things I can think of because I mean work would have been faster and I would have been working with the current person faster still is a hunch is probably right, so act on it sooner how do you know whether you should start a company on your own or you should co-found with someone and if you like co-founder with someone how do you know that person is the right one for you I would suggest that all 3 of us answer that I took that because to me I felt like company alone would have been great but also quite lonely at times because when you are starting off trying to idea, trying to talk to people sometimes you feel like am I the only one who believes in this is there nobody out there in this universe who actually believes in this in moments like that it's not only work wise, not just skill wise but it's actually very emotional to have somebody believe in the same thing that you believe in so to me having a co-founder was that's the only way I can think of it being alone would have been quite lonely EF had some statistics that change our soul might be more likely to fail but I agree on the matter of it because I can just ask Eugene and he's like my soul is really in stress I try not to stress or kill him with a mechanical keyboard I'm just kidding but how do you find the right co-founder that's a good question actually I joined EF because I thought EF was a good idea because previously when I was in university there was a lot of business students to do their project so I actually agreed and it turns out it was a good idea but I had a very not a very great co-founder where the velling is not annoying so actually I found from that experience I realised that the most important thing you should establish she's just not just technical our technical skills are just complementary so we can build this product together very well and execute it very fast but on the base I wrote one of the things that we established very quickly was what are our core values and we just established that trust and honesty is most important like we try not to hide we cannot lie to each other that is most important for me so I can't stand it as a person that I'm working with and also the second thing is just being respected so if I'm hired as a CTO that means I'm hired for my technical advice someone should listen to my technical advice and not just tell me to view a rocket to the moon and say that that is basically not possible if that's impossible in the current resources and not just tell me if you view it, it can be done dream on man dream on yeah, that's how you when you're running a co-founder my advice is make sure that you have the same layer basically like co-founder comes together and for the first two months the idea is just to work with different people one person at a time but try and figure out if you have any common idea that you can work towards and if you've been productive as a team so because there's no good answer who is the co-founder the idea is just to try and see if it works with any particular person and then you just keep moving on till you find what I want which is exactly what I did I moved to a couple of teams before and by the time I was working with my co-founder, I knew that because I had worked with two other people before, I knew that this just made sense I see that you're dealing with co-founder so I do want to ask because I think in the end you find your co-founder you find your co-founder how did you start your team at the beginning you taught about all the people how to start so how did that start or did you just set as that of the interfaces and find a legal person we actually made these things and when you ask the question about RIS actually when I thought about it there were all things that were corrected we actually didn't hire the right people at the start we just really wanted to hire very fast but I think one of the best advice was actually to hire slow but we didn't and even though we've managed engineers before, we never managed people who were just from coding boot camp and we didn't know how to properly wrap that up into the engineering role and also where I came from and worked at processes were already very established already a 2013 company and processes were very established so things weren't changing as fast and it was in the startup culture when you're trying to figure things out so trying to hire for people who can embrace this kind of constant phase of change which is very difficult so we actually found that our first world employees were not a great fit because they couldn't adapt as fast so when things were changing and we said all these processes is not very good and we used new flows and we just couldn't move fast enough so that was actually one of the mistakes I've had but you find when you hire people try to look up for people who are really very enthusiastic to learn and are very transparent so in general you have to do a lot of hidden trial but also try to learn from the other sources you have let's say online or by around you so I think for me that's how I learned the process itself through online resources and a lot of people for the legal side Thankfully EF had some kind of legal support for us initially so whenever we needed legal advice for initial hire or something like that EF did have a lot of resources now we have invested in a lawyer both for investment and hiring which is advisable once your team grows beyond size of T24 so not full time but let's say lawyers have different kinds of packages they also give you sort of hiring packages or let's say investment agreement negotiation packages so they do have similar packages available you'll be surprised by how many different customizable things are available out there so that's why it's good so initially we figured it out on our own now it's actually invested in getting basically how did you start how did you how did you hire so between the two of us luckily my partner and I we can build the whole team which is what we're doing initially we considered finding somebody who could figure out sales for us but then since we're super early we also realized that it would be much better if we crack the first few sales and then set up a process which just basically makes the education cycle much quicker which is why we haven't hired any media thank you very much i'm not very sure but i think in the vertical you all are working there are many other things to offer how do you stand off okay i'll speak for my vertical manhapakswi inside is pretty huge there are thousands of problems to solve the key is to find something niche enough and and also big enough so it's yeah the key is finding those niche problems within this whole industry where there are multiple labs and i think that applies to a lot of these i think that hiring has a lot of companies but they still have this problem which so you would think that there are a lot of players in developing your development but there's still this problem that you wish to solve so that's how it is well what we do is technology innovation and then has to answer technology innovation and also business model innovation so for technology wise we actually solve the testing problem in a very unique way and it's different from existing solution frankly there isn't that many existing solutions to UI and testing self most of the market 90% of software projects are still being tested by manually buying by hand so what we actually do very differently from all other testing solution is our testing solution doesn't rely on the UI having already been implemented so that's one thing that is the key thing away from that a lot of people when they buy a product they realize that's why the magic of your addition works now the other thing that we do is innovate on how we sell the product itself so a lot of software testing products that is still being sold on a software license so you buy it and store it in your computer so right now we will go on a sales model as well as the premium model that none of other competitors will do I would like to really thank for giving our wonderful panel each year break some thank you Shuin thank you Shuin and thank you and thank you all for coming and for the wonderful workshop so you will be great so they are the junior that will introduce our hard flow for us and we will be doing a session on how to test and what to pull you guys on it so do her thank you