 Okay. Welcome everybody. My name is Jenny Fuster. I'm the Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences Research Data Commons Program Manager for the ARDC. So we're going to get started. But before we do, bear with me. So I'd like to acknowledge and celebrate the first Australians on whose traditional lands we meet and pay our respects to the Elders past, present and emerging. And just to let you know that I live and work on Ghana Country. I'd also like to introduce Rosie Hicks, our CEO who's here to participate in the Q&A at the end of the session. And Reese Williams, my colleague who's here to assist today. I'd like to introduce Jill Ben, Kylie Brass, and Chris Haverly, who are all from our advisory panel, as well as Vanessa Russ and Len Smith from the Indigenous Data Network, who are also here to answer questions if there are any at the end of the session. So before I start, I want to let you know that this session is being recorded. The primary purpose of today's session is to ensure that we are keeping the community informed of our work on the humanities, arts and social sciences research data commons and Indigenous research capability program. We're really excited, as I'm sure all of you are, about this long overdue development and we want to ensure that we proceed in a transparent and collaborative manner. So during today's session, I'll give a little bit of background about the work of the ARDC, as well as some background about the investment into the HASS RDC and Indigenous research capability program. I'll let you know what progress has been made to date and how you can engage in the planning process over the next month. Today's purpose is not to look at the content of the project plans for the HASS RDC and Indigenous research capability program, but we will let you know later in the session where you can find that content. We will be answering questions at the end of the session and I'd ask you to add any questions that you might have to the shared document and I think that Reese has added that link into the chat. So have a look at that shared document. If somebody's already asked your question in that document, you can add a plus one to the column in column three that is and that will help us prioritize the questions so that we can answer them. Rest assured that if we don't get to your question today, we will be answering all of those questions in that document and we'll make sure that you have the link. We'll email it out to you after the session. So let's start with the ARDC. The ARDC was formed following recommendations of the 2016 National Research Infrastructure Roadmap by merging the Australian National Data Service or ANS, NECTA, the National Research Cloud and Research Data Services RDS. It was incorporated in May 2019 and now runs as a not-for-profit company limited by guarantee with 20 institutional members and we have a skills-based board as well. The ARDC's purpose is simply to provide Australian researchers with competitive advantage through data. We deliver that through accelerating research and innovation by driving excellence in the creation, analysis and retention of high-quality data assets. So you can see here the areas of activity that this includes are data and services, storage and compute, software and platforms and people and policy. In each case, we're driving coordination and coherence in Australia's national digital research infrastructure. So within those fourth themes, the ARDC is currently running a major program of projects and services. Services include the National Information Infrastructure, the NECTA, Research Cloud and projects include a portfolio of 26 platforms and the National Data Assets Program. And culture change through skills and policy underpins these activities. The ARDC is a hub of expertise connected both domestically and internationally. All ARDC projects are highly collaborative. For example, the institutional underpinnings program is uniting 25 universities to develop a coordinated approach to research data management. 60% of our platforms projects have more than 10 institutions involved in them. So we do like to collaborate. The Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences Research Data Commons and Indigenous Research Capability Program will be the first of hopefully many thematic research data commons. The thematic RDCs will bring together data and related resources, so storage, models and computing infrastructure to enable researchers from across disciplines and industries to deliver world-class data intensive research outcomes in strategic thematic areas. The ARDC is shifting towards the support of thematic RDCs because as digital research infrastructure has become mainstream, it has also become clear that the domain specialist should not also have to be a data and compute specialist. As a hub of expertise, the ARDC is positioned to drive best practice in the creation, analysis and retention of high-quality data assets and share this expertise across domains. So what is a research data commons actually? A research data commons will co-locate data, storage and computing infrastructure with core services and commonly used tools and applications for managing, analysing and sharing data to create an interoperable resource. Now turning to the HASS research data commons and a little bit of background for you. The need for investment in both humanities arts and social sciences and indigenous research was detailed in the 2016 National Research Infrastructure Roadmap. The Department of Education Skills and Employment or DESI subsequently commissioned three studies which identified a number of investment-ready programs that would benefit from national research infrastructure funding. Whilst not all of the recommendations of those scoping studies have been funded at this time, the activities earmarked to participate in the initial round of development displayed an advanced state of readiness to participate in and benefit from a HASS research data commons. Funding for the four activities has been guided by the recommended investment ratios in the DESI studies. Even I get it wrong. The leads of those activities are Professor Michael Haw from UQ for the Linguistics Data Commons of Australia, Dr Stephen McKacken from ANU for Integrated Research Infrastructure for Social Sciences, Alison Dellert for the Trove Research Platform and Professor Marcia Langton for the Indigenous Research Capability Program. As you know, the ARDC and the HASS RDC and Indigenous Research Capability Program are supported as part of the National Research Infrastructure Strategy Encrase and these investments are in response to the National Research Infrastructure Road Mapping process. We can see this in these project program objectives that reflect the research infrastructure investment plan as well as the increased principles. So to date the activity leads have participated in two workshops. The workshops were designed to guide the project plans and ensure that they contribute to the HASS RDC and Indigenous Research Capability Program as a coherent whole. The discussions included opportunities for collaboration or integration across the activities, the potential development of collaborative tools, utilising shared underlying infrastructure and Indigenous data governance considerations. The draft project plans have now been submitted to the ARDC. We've also appointed an advisory panel to ensure that broad community engagement will be achieved and that community feedback will be reasonably incorporated into the project plans. The advisory panel is led by Jill Ben as Chair and Representative from the Higher Education Library community. Jill is the Chair of the Council of Australian University Librarians and University Librarian at UWA and Jill is with us today. Dr Kylie Brass is the Academy of the Humanities Representative. Kylie is the Policy and Research Director at the Australian Academy of the Humanities and I believe Kylie is with us too but there are so many faces that I can't spot her. Dr Chris Haverly is the Academy of Social Sciences Representatives as CEO of the Academy of Social Sciences in Australia. Associate Professor Anna Johnston is the Representative for the Researcher Community. Anna is Associate Professor in English Literature in the School of Communication and Art at the University of Queensland. Ron Decker is the International HASS Digital Research Infrastructure Representative. Ron is the Director of CESTA, Eric at the Consortium of Social Science Data Archives and the Coordinator of Social Sciences and Humanities Open Cloud, otherwise known as SHOCK. He's also the Project Leader of the EOSC Future Project that aims to realise the European Open Science Cloud. We are still awaiting the appointment of the Indigenous Research Community Representative but that is in progress. So I now want to touch on the project plans. In particular in relation to the evaluation criteria, a selection of which you can see here. The project plan evaluation criteria have been strongly tied to the anchor's principles and so to name a few of those principles. Australia's investment in research infrastructure should be planned and developed with the aim of maximising the contributions of the research. Major infrastructure should be developed on a collaborative national non-exclusive basis. Infrastructure funded through Anchris should serve the research and innovation system broadly, not just the host or funded institution. Funding and eligibility rules should encourage collaboration and co-investment. It should not be the function of Anchris to support institutional level or even small-scale collaborative infrastructure. Access is a critical issue in the drive to optimise Australia's research infrastructure. In terms of anchor's funding, there should be as few barriers as possible to accessing major infrastructure for those undertaking meritorious research. And due regard must be given to the whole of life costs of major infrastructure. So these are all things to be considered in the evaluation of our project plans. So I just want to share with you the timeline for the next month. It's certainly been a busy time in the lead-up to this information session and it's going to be a busy time in the lead-up to our board meeting on the 19th of October. So draft project plans along with the evaluation criteria and Anchris principles, as well as a feedback submission facility, are now available on the ARDC website and we'll share that link with you in the chat when I finish speaking. On the 14th of September, video presentations given by the activity leads which will give more context to those project plans will also go live on the ARDC website. On the 21st of September, from 10 until 3 Eastern Standard Time, we will be holding roundtable discussions which will give you an opportunity to ask any questions of the leads that you may have. As you've registered for today's session, you'll automatically receive details about the roundtable sessions via email. September the 27th will be the last day that you'll be able to submit feedback, so please make sure that you add that date to your diary. The leads, the advisory panel and I will be working to ensure that any feedback received is incorporated into the plans where reasonable. But we will also be compiling a register of needs and capabilities that we can't cover in this round. So any capability gaps that we can't cover, we will feed into the current NRI road mapping process through DESI. On the 19th of October, I will be presenting the recommendations for the project plans to the ARDC board. If we feel that any of the plans are not ready, that will not preclude the other activities from getting underway. Okay, thanks for your attention. We're going to go to questions now, but I'm going to ask Reese Williams to give me a hand. And I'll just pop my contact details up there in case anybody wants to get in touch with me via email. So how are we going, Reese? No questions. Okay. I can't see any questions in the question register. Now, we can wait a few minutes for someone to type some. If there's not, we may, even though we've got 110 people, we may be able to ask for people to put their hands up, but I'll give you a few more minutes if there's something that you wanted to add to that. And Marcus, while I've got the floor down the bottom left of where it says mute, if you click on the little arrow on the right, it'll take you to the audio settings. In the bottom left of your Zoom window, you should have an Zoom's audio settings option. I can't hear you, Jenny, through your mute, I think. I'm just going to stop sharing my screen and find the link for you to the ARDC page that has the project plans and submission feedback. So we'll start on the questions in a minute. Okay. I've just popped that link to the project plans into the chat. So Jenny, there's a couple of questions about Indigenous data governance, effectively, the one about care principles, and then is there a universal definition for Indigenous data governance that we are using? So this sort of related. I'm going to ask Vanessa or Vanessa Russ or Len Smith, please to address that question. I think you're still muted, Vanessa. What's the question? Is there a universal definition for Indigenous data governance? Oh, look, I think that there's still work being done. I do think there's quite a lot of work that people like Ray Lover and Maggie have done, but I think in terms of its application, there's still work to be done. Yeah. And the care principles always see are... It's the same thing. I think it's actually about really understanding how do you put that into sort of a data management setting? How do you actually make it work that people use it? It's no point talking about it if people aren't going to use it. So I think it's not that there's anything wrong with those things. It's just how do we take them and then apply them and thinking about the difference between, say, a community-controlled organisation and a non-community-controlled organisation because there are going to be different things as well. Yes, thank you. I'm typing and not reading. Jenny, you mentioned the process for recruiting the Indigenous lead. Can you give us any more information about that at the stage? Sorry, Ray. You mentioned the... It's very hard. We're in the same room. It is. It's a bit weird. The process for recruiting the Indigenous lead, can you give us any more information about that? But Linda's asked if we've got any more information. You mentioned it was in progress. Oh, no, that's not the lead. The lead is Professor Marsha Langton. We are looking for the advisory panel member, and we've been guided by the Indigenous data network and provided with a number of people, a few of whom have declined due to the workload and general busyness. So we are working our way through that list that was provided by the Indigenous data network. Sound data, as a data type, is there a provision for that? For example, musicology, recordings, I'm sure there could be. As I said, the investment has been very tied to the scoping studies. So there are those four areas that I mentioned. Of course, I'm sure that Michael... Is Michael Hall with us? Michael, speak now or forever hold your peace. I can't see him. Michael is working with linguistics, and obviously linguistics often involves recordings. And are there IDN working with any sound recordings, Vanessa Linn? It's quite likely where they're still in the process of identifying clearly which data sets they will be working with, but I will let them speak. Is that right, Vanessa? Yeah, I think there's a lot to this. It's a massive project. So trying to get it narrowed down has been really important. And I don't think we're really... I'm not sure if we're there to intend to sound. But, Linn, I don't know. Somebody in the... James told us that the language data commons is working with sound, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. What else? I just noticed that Kylie, I think... Was that Kylie Brass had popped a question into the chat. Yes. What's the end game for the program and where do we want to be at the end? At the end, we want to be in the middle, not at the end. I would suggest is the answer to that. And maybe not even in the middle. So we view this very much as being a pilot to a more long-term piece of research infrastructure. So we do hope that we will be able to expand the capabilities that we're looking at in this phase of the project. And then somebody said, following on from Kylie, how do we best position the HASS community in the increased roadmap discussions? And I think I might ask Rosie Hicks if she can talk roadmap with you. Certainly. Thank you, Rosie. Thanks, Jenny. Good afternoon, everyone. So I'm going to split this into two different components here. The ARDC is obviously very involved in the data and compute components of this year's roadmaping process. And I can confirm that we have a workshop with the department tomorrow afternoon. And we have both representation from the Indigenous network with Vanessa Russ and Len Smith on the call this afternoon. And from the technical side of the HASS RDC, we have Peter Septon representing the interests of the HASS community there. And I would put that in context. So we have three representatives tomorrow. I'm not sure of the total number of attendees in that meeting, but it's off the order of 2025. So it is a significant footprint, which I think is a great result fitting into that process. We, the ARDC, of course, continue to advocate for the HASS work in our interactions with the roadmaping process. In addition to that, I'm not aware of the details of the consultations. I can't have further comment. Thanks, Rosie. Rhys, we've got any more questions? There are a lot more questions. There's a question that says, will the commons in the research data be comprised primarily of existing archive data? If so, are any popular archives going to be used at this stage? I mean, I guess it's about are they existing archives that will be incorporated? That's from how? Yes. There will be existing data that will be used in these programs. In fact, most of the data is already in existence, I would say. Yeah. And in terms of which archives? Well, Trove, obviously, there will be tapping into Trove data. So, you know, that's a fairly representative group of data from across Australia in terms of lands. Paradisic, which is an existing data repository, will be leveraged. ADA is being leveraged, which is an existing data repository for social sciences. IAXIS data will be used. So, yes, there's a lot of reuse of existing archival data. Thank you. A couple of people have asked about the scoping studies. Can we see the scoping studies? The scoping studies that were carried out by DESI have not been made public. One of them I have not seen at all. Two I have, because one of them was done by the ARDC, and another was carried out by the Academy of Humanities. And I don't know, is Kylie here? I know that DESI has released that, but I don't think it's been released completely publicly. Yeah. So, just picking up on that, these scoping studies, there's a backstory to this. They weren't initially envisaged as the scoping studies, but I think they have effectively become the scoping studies into the process. So, as you were saying, ARDC did one piece. Alexis Tindall was involved in that, and in Duncan, and I haven't seen that piece. None of the scoping studies people actually crossed paths, I guess, in terms of the work that we were doing, even though we were swapping intel as we went across the process. There was another study that was done by Dandolo Partners, and again, I know that there was some high-level consultation on that, but we didn't see that. We did a piece, the Academy of Humanities, looking at international infrastructure models. At this stage, I've had permission to share that, and look at me, overalls on. I wasn't expecting to be on camera. I've had some permission to share that, as you know, Jenny, with you now, and with the kind of working teams, and I'm working on hopefully getting that more publicly available, because I think it's a useful resource, and so hopefully there's more to tell you soon on that, and making that publicly available. I do know, having spoken to counterparts in Department of Education, that some of that work has been made available to the expert working group, a synthesis of it, as far as I understand, and yet, so it's a bit of a watch this space, and we're certainly working behind the scenes to get access to those documents more broadly. Thanks, Kylie. Lots of work in progress, really. Alex, Alexis has given us a long question. Thanks for that, Alexis. If an organisation is managing Indigenous research data, that would benefit from improved governance arrangements, and may benefit communities from being incorporated into any new discoverability made possible by the Commons, it wouldn't be the best approach to get involved, short version. Are you seeking collections or open to working with dispersed collections of Indigenous research data? Vanessa and Ling, I'm going to throw over to you for that one. That was very well handled. That's very good. You got to take that, Vanessa. I think there's multiple end points to that question. I think there's lots of things we don't know. Alex has probably been better to email me so that I can actually talk it through with you, because there's things around governance that are still new to the actual data management side of things, I think. Yeah, there's a lot in that question. If you could send me an email, that'd be great, and I can get that through. Jenny? And that may be one that we can take away and think about a bit. Jules asked about this audience, so everybody on this call, do you have any comments about how comfortable you feel with the process that we've outlined for the consultation? So Jenny's taken us through what the proposed timeframe is and the steps involved in the consultation. Are people okay with that? I mean, Jules asking that question as a member of our advisory board for this program. Any comments from anybody? If you have any, think of any and you want to type them into that document in the response part, please feel free to do that. Jenny, what else can you see there? I think that Steve's got his hand up. He had his hand up. He's put it down again. Sorry, I'll just give a quick comment on the previous question. As I say, we've been in terms of the working with collections, we actually have been, so I've been sort of helping the ANU part of the idea and discussion. We have been looking at models for kind of doing audits and surveys of what collections are available there and we've been looking at how to roll that out. So it might, you know, it might well be the case that there's within that framework of how we're looking at those data audits that we could fit in the sorts of things that Alexis is talking about. So Sam Provost will be able to talk to that as well. And Vanessa can bring you into touch with those relevant people there, but I'd say it is certainly within the some of those discussions that we've had. Okay, Jenny, your quick question about the timeline for the deliverable. So did you talk about the overall timeline for the program? Overall timeline for the program is we're working to an end date of June, end of June 2023. So we've got a very tight timeframe to deliver on this project program, which is why you can see that we're working in a very tight process of feedback. So we've had to ramp up quite quickly. I only joined the ARDC back in June, so we've been working very quickly to get things properly underway. Okay. What else? We're nearly there, I think. Advice, do we have any advice for data custodians hoping to make their digital collections accessible through emerging RDCs? I'm not sure who's written that in. That might be a rosy, if we're talking some thematic RDCs more broadly. Oh, perhaps, yes. Does that refer to others other than the HASS RDC perhaps? Does the person who asked that question want to stick their hand up and clarify if they're comfortable to do so? No. No, that's okay. The next one says, will the HASS RDCs start us in RDA? Well, sorry, Rosy. I will comment. I notice that someone's still typing there, but just in case we're talking about other emerging RDCs, what I would say is that we anticipate in the next financial year to be able to set up two thematic RDCs, but at this point in time, we don't know the areas that they will be focused on. We're working it out at the moment, and I am absolutely delighted to say that on the first of this month, the 1st of September, we appointed Dr. Anita Cannon as the senior architect for the thematic RDC strategy, so Anita's work will be very much on identifying where we start with the first two. Obviously, I see that expanding over the years, not beyond a handful, but certainly for those first two. So when it comes back to having advice for data custodians seeking to make connections accessible through emerging RDCs, it is watch this space. There will be more information coming soon, but of course, making them available through research data at Australia is a critical, important first step. Now, I hope that's answered the person's question, but if not, I think it's great information to share with this group anyway. Alexis, you're fessing up. What are you saying here? Right. Well, I've just given a lovely, I can see you, I've given a lovely example, a lovely answer about thematic RDCs in general, but you are actually focused on this one, working in an organisation active that makes some digital collections programme. So I'm going to throw back to you, Jenny. Oh, Alexis. Very, Jenny. I just want to say many of us here are custodians of has relevant data, and I think one of the things that's not necessarily clear right at this stage, and perhaps it doesn't need to be answered today, but perhaps it's something for the further round table, is pathways for stuff that's already digital, that we don't necessarily, we're not, I'm not necessarily turning and asking for money for digitisation or anything like that, but where our commitments to open scholarship can be turned into accessibility in these new research environments. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I can actually answer that question just yet, Alexis, to be honest with you. But as Rosie said, I think it's a matter of watch this face. I mean, I'm incredibly mindful of exactly what you have expressed in that question, but cannot right now answer it. I don't think I can think of Alexis as a fairly generic answer, but obviously, if we're looking at everything that our DC does is around fair the fair principles and those kinds of things. So and we provide a lot of expertise as to this project as well to others. So if you've got existing resources and you need assistance to make those more available through some skills work, software development advice, professional advice, we obviously bring all of that expertise of ARDC to that. So as you know, as people know, we've got a bunch of vocab nerds and PID nerds and developing nerds all in the background doing all sorts of very clever things. That's okay. They know that I call them nerds. It's a affectionate term. And I'm pleased to see that people are typing in responses, which is really good. Just asking Jenny and putting her on the spot. Nick T. Berger says, can fair be fair if it doesn't include long term guaranteed curation of research data? Well, I mean, it's, it can. It's got to be as long as possible. But who's going to give an ironclad guarantee? My colleague Keith Russell said, if people want to establish a PID for something, you should give them a puppy because it's a long term arrangement. So we all we all just fairly willy nilly established a PID for something. But that's no different to putting it to arguing the same thing about a long term repository. So I'm being a bit flippant, but you're quite you're quite right, Nick. That is the principle. We have to get right. And thank you to Alexis for her comment. Agree that it is an important question to be on the table. Thank you. Yeah. We need to keep having that discussion, Alexis. Yeah. Yeah. Are there any more race? There's one that says us about the medical concept differing from existing in our facilities and funding. That's a rosy question. That's a rosy question. A rosy question. There is a very significant difference to the way that the ARDC has been operating historically. We have undertaken support and collaborations with a significant number of national data assets and platforms, programs producing some really fantastic research capability. But much of this has come about through an open call process. And we are acutely aware that digital research infrastructure is no longer at the vanguard. It's absolutely underpinning the mainstream of our research. So we have to change the way that we do this to ensure that we can support the needs of the greatest number of researchers to have the highest impact. And so we, in putting together the thematic RDCs, we're looking to make significant strategic investments very much in the same model, building on the model of what we're doing here with the HASS RDC that are brought about by significant consultation and facilitation and building the communities to identify the gaps and the challenges and going forward to build those solutions, rather than an open competitive process, building this shared national research infrastructure. And I think another really important point that we need to speak to here is the sustainability of our e-research infrastructure. And if we continue to fund in short bursts and to fund in projects, we're not looking at the sustainability issue. If there is a national need to have this capability as the national research infrastructure that RDC has to commit longer than a three-year window. Now, of course, it's limited by the existence of the RDC minor point there. But beyond that, we then come back to reviewing the impact of having particular capability and the demands of the research sector. So it is a significant shift between the way that things have been done previously, recognising the mainstream needs of the research sector and what we think is necessary for the next 10 years. We see you are typing furiously. I wonder if we might put a link to the ARDC website that explains this in a bit more detail for everyone that's on the call today. Yes. We've got something on the format of the RDCs on the website. We have indeed. So you could tell by the length of my answer that it's a very exciting time for us. Thank you. Thank you, Rosie. Is there anything else there, Jenny? I'll just stop looking at it. There's a comment there about knowing where it fits into the international initiative. So I think that sort of goes well with the previous comments about knowing what's there in terms of mapping existing data collections. There's a piece that there's a sort of a landscape or environmental piece that's amongst that, I think. Thank you. Rosie, did you paste that? Thank you. That was Keith. Thanks, Keith. Thank you, Keith. Keith is the keeper of the guru of finding the right thing and sticking in in there. Thanks, Keith. Okay. I've pasted your comment in there, Nick. Jenny, can you think of anything else we should cover off? I'm just having a quick book in the chat. No, I can't think of anything else unless there are any further questions. Steve's got his hand up. Steve? Yeah. Jenny, I just thought it might be useful to back to Kylie's point about what's the end game here and your point about this is the end of part one. Because I think that helps for people to understand when they're evaluating and reviewing what we've put together to understand we focused on there is going to be a part two. That's the premise that we're really working towards. And as a result, some of what we've written into those plans is premised on we can't do everything straight away, but we certainly we're trying to set it up for thinking forward there. And so let's say that lines up with the road mapping discussions and others that Rosy and Jenny have touched upon. But that point about their implicit in this is assuming a part two. And so some of the questions around what's in and what's out is which parts can we get, can we do now and which parts can we be ready for as we go forward is kind of embedded in certainly some of the thinking that the social science group has done. And I think with across the other projects as well. Okay. Thanks Steve. And thus also our desire to capture feedback that will help shape, you know, what future capability we might the sector might benefit from that we can't meaningfully create in this round. Thanks Steve. Anybody else? Yes, it is recorded and it will be made available. Vanessa, can I just follow on from what Steve just said that I think one of the components for us is actually there's a lot of consultation and engagement required. So there's still quite a lot of conversation that's required from our end. And I think we're all we're all feeling the pinch. So it's not that we we don't know certain things. It's just that how do you make them functional is is out there and and we need to bring all the people the right people into the room. And so that still takes the sorts work to be done. So to speak. Thanks Vanessa. Great. Lynn's asking as long term sustainability job for NCI. Rosie? I think we all have a part to play. There is certain data that most appropriate is sits with NCI. There is data we're looking for that seamless connection across government data, health data, industry data, community data. I think our DC has a significant role in working to raise the tide. I think if I if I go back to like all ships rise with the tide, working with the institutions across Australia to raise the availability and standards of institutional repositories so that they expand beyond the strengths of publications and really address the responsibilities for maintaining data into the future. Then add to that some domain specific repositories and our need as a country of what are we up to today 26 million in a broader global landscape and need to make sure that we are also interoperable and working with global data as well. Thank you Rosie. Anybody else? We make it an early minute. So I encourage you to have a look at those project plans. At the moment there's three project plans available. All four will be available tomorrow. We just had to rectify something in one of them. So they'll all be up there tomorrow. Please take a look. Please have a look at the videos. They will be up on the 14th of September and then come back and participate with us in the roundtable discussions where we'll have a much longer time to discuss those plans in detail with the project leads and their partners and then I really strongly encourage you to submit your feedback because as I say that will help us to shape what capabilities the community needs going forwards. So I'm really glad that you've attended today and if you have any questions that you think of after the session either pop them into that shared document or you can email me but we'll keep working on that shared Q&A document just so that everyone can read the answers and I think we will sign out. So thanks again for attending and I'll see you at the roundtable in a few weeks time. Thanks everyone. Thanks Rhys. Thanks Rosie and Vanessa and Len and my advisory panel. Thank you very much for attending.