 So, it's an interesting topic, but I do think that the sort of ethical issues, I mean really important ones here, are only different ball parts. And of course, you know, the whole definition of training psychotherapists is around learning opportunities and how can a person learn to be a psychotherapist if they don't sort of learn by experience. And with that may come some so-called mistakes. The most important is how you handle it afterwards. Definitely, I agree. And the other, you know, take away all learning from this podcast episode if anybody's interested in, you know, what I take away from this podcast is not to Google things. Because that list that you came up with of the 10 things, you know what I mean? I suppose it's a good starting point, but I often say, I say it quite a lot with my clients as well, is step away from Google. Google is not good. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 85 with myself, Jackie Jones, and the wonderful Bob Cook to The Therapy Show behind closed doors. And what we're going to be talking about this week, Bob, is making mistakes in the therapy process. I'm glad I brought my cup of tea up. I know the people who haven't got the podcast won't be able to see it, but people who haven't got the podcast but are watching me on audio on my channel can see the cup of tea. So I'm glad I've done that. Oh, well, you know, this title, I only knew recently, I forgot when it was, when this would be the title. So I like to talk a lot in this podcast about how you repair ruptures in the psychotherapy process. Yes. See, I think mistakes or learning experiences and even can be seen as gifts. It's how you handle the ruptures in the psychotherapy program process, which is most important. But anyway, I thought I'd just put mistakes into psychotherapy to Google. And as many, many references to sort of five therapeutic mistakes, common counselling mistakes. So anyway, I just read, I just picked the 10 here from psychology today. I'll just read them out. Right. Number one, they've got forgetting the important players in the client's life. Okay. It's crucial for therapists to take careful notes, following sessions, which include recording the names of significant others in the client's story, confusing the name of the client's ex husband and current partner in the midst of the therapeutic journey is not acceptable. It's very apparent, isn't it? It is, but it's very true. Well, I'd like to say something about it in a minute. The therapist should be immersed in the story. Okay. Now, let's, all these number one to time are very parent-led about should this and should that and should not. I think that most therapists, counsellors, God, the sort of type of memory they've got, actually, is to actually remember the narratives of the story and, you know, and may or may not sometimes in the process forget some of the players, players is the wrong one. Some of the major key factors in the client's story and even might forget their name or even give a, give another name. But you see, it's not so much that. I mean, that may cause the rupture in the psychotherapy process. I feel I'm going to be saying this many times, what I'm going to say now. It's how you handle the rupture. Yeah. It's not so much that you're forgetting is the problem. I mean, okay, a person, I was in therapy myself. So if my therapist forgot my wife's name or something, okay, I might be momentarily hurt if you want to put that way. However, how the therapist handles it, which is the next step. So for example, if they say, oh, sorry, or some sort of apology or some sort of accounting for the hurting course me if it did. Yeah. That's the most important thing. Yeah. Because then I think all these ruptures I'm going to talk about, or we're talking about here, if we want to call the mistakes, can be dealt with. And then most of them can be dealt with by accounting for the inadvertent common first forgetfulness or accounting for the whatever, because you know the other way to look at this. I'm sure you're going to have a lot of thoughts on this, which may even be different from mine. But an average therapist, an average one to see works five days a week, might have 20 clients a week. Yeah. You might have on their books. Let's say 20. Let's just say that I know clients have that is that many more. And if they're working relationally over time with a client. You know, they've got a lot to remember. They usually remember the emotional stories. But somebody who just comes for the first time. They may not remember. And also there could be a lot of transferential issues in this where say the client doesn't remind them of their mother or something like that. So unconsciously, they may forgot to forget the inadvertent commerce mother's name or have you want to look at it. The most important thing, I think, is how they handle the so-called rupture. Yeah. To acknowledge it. Yeah. Because diapers aren't perfect. God, no. Even more so. You know, I'm of a certain age where men are both in one thing and another. It's like, you do have brain fog every so often. And it's like that name is just not in my brain at all today. Yeah. I was astonished. I'm going to read a few more. How almost every so-called mistake the psychological today list is. It's very parent. They should be doing this. They shouldn't be doing this. Yeah. I sort of have some resistance in the word should. I think it's a big band from. Yeah. I don't think they're prescribed of their way to hurt their clients or whatever it is. I'm going to be reading out in a moment. By far the most important thing is how they then deal with that. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And like I said, just acknowledging that you've forgotten or a mistake rather than trying to, you know, pussyfoot around it or avoid the situation or whatever. Yeah. That's one thing. Yeah. It's not even just the clients and the partner. They've got, you know, three kids as well that they often talk about. And, you know, if you have 20 clients for every one of those clients, there's probably five or six important people in that person's life. So you're talking over 100 names that you've got to try and pull out of the bank sometimes. And remember, and I don't want to excuse that was here, but the second point I want to say in this how we deal ruptures process is besides apologizing or accounting for the so-called rupture is imperative. I think the therapist then goes on to say something like, and is this familiar for you? In other words, is it familiar for you that people have disappointed you? Yeah. Or is it familiar in your life that you feel you felt discounted? So they use the, if you want to call this mistake, but I'm going to say mistake always with inverted commas, to inquire about somebody's past and script. Yeah. That's what I mean by gift. Yeah. Yeah, because it is a valuable tool. It's like, is it familiar for you to be disappointed in the way that you feel disappointed at me now? Yeah. Because in a way, no disrespect to all the therapists and counselors listening to this. They're not the most important people. Most important people are the people in the person's history who have continually in a cumulative way disappointed or hurt them. And it's a good opening for exploration around all of that in the therapy room. Yeah. He must have surely that the many, you know, others mistakes, which is whatever we're going to call this. He would have followed this through and say, well, I assume you both could, you know, and is this a repetitive process? Have you felt this way before? Yeah. And it's like you say it's about using it as an opportunity to explore it. Yeah. It's a gift. It is. Because I know, you know, some of the people listening that are quite new to it don't want to make mistakes, but we are only human and we will make mistakes in the therapy room. There's no doubt about it. Impossible. And over the years, I've trained many, many people do psychotherapists as you know. And I can say universally that one of the themes of the beginning therapist go on placements. They then go into supervision. And one of the central themes is the very early therapist or trainee therapist believes they have to be perfect. Yeah. They have to get it right. Yeah. They can get it wrong. And the problem with that process is too, it's a very hard narrative on yourself. Yeah. But it also buys into a system for the client. In other words, the other person can't be vulnerable. They can't make mistakes. They can't have failures. All the things they probably tell themselves often. Yeah. And it's not right for us to be put on a pedestal really. No. No. No. Well, you know, that's correct. And unfortunately it's the most common thing that happens. Yeah. I say unfortunately, because there's a fortunate part about it, we can use the idealising transfers to actually support the relationship and build on the process. But the other side of it, of course, as the most people come into therapy, have what I call Father Christmas process, which is that they're there to fix them. Yeah. And they cannot not be perfect. Which is a heavy burden to carry. It's an impossible, impossible burden to carry. You might want to use it and think about in terms of idealising transfers to make for a supportive relationship. And it's an impossible one. And of course, it's the internal, internal critic in their own heads, which is tell themselves off even twice as hard as their external reference. Yeah. Because in their heads, they probably carry a very vicious internal critic, which is telling them they can't be a failure. You know, they have to be perfect. They can't get things wrong. And that they're stupid and this sort of that. Yeah. If they're not getting nine out of 10 or 10 out of 10 in anything in their lives. It's the it's the critic they carry, which minds them of the father or the mother and the younger self comes home and gets nine out of 10 for the maths or nine 10 for the history. And the father says, well, where did you get? Where's the other one gone? You know, it's not the one that you didn't get. Yeah. It's that internal critic they carry with them. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think it's my stuff. But there's something for me that I always feel uncomfortable about being thought of or referred to as an expert. Oh, yes. And and nine out of 10 people who come to see therapists. This is what I call to Father Christmas. Expect the therapist to fix them. Yeah. And therefore they project that the therapist is the expert. Yeah. That's the hidden Father Christmas process. You know, for most clients to come in through the room. And I think it's a really good topic and a really good, you know, conversation and exploration about the hidden things that are in the therapy room. That will be a great podcast. But this is one. Yeah. Right. Great podcast. And the Father Christmas process is extraordinarily powerful. Yeah. And when you say, you know, it's maybe something to do with the bad expert. Well, it may or may not be. But I know that projection is going to come your way. Yeah. The therapist. And of course, what also will come its way eventually is the disappointment. Yeah. When you fall. When they realise that you're not all that they thought you were. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not sure whether I mentioned this in past podcast or not, but that happened with my supervisor. They fell off the pedestal. And I can remember it hit me like a ton of bricks when I realised that they weren't perfect. They can't be perfect. Yeah. Because there's no such thing. They set themselves up to fail. Anybody who goes through that whole process of attempting to be perfect is always setting themselves up to fail. Yeah. Because there isn't such a thing. Certainly not a perfect therapist anyway. So what's number two on the list? Oh, yes. They're mostly going to be should do this and should do that. That's what I'm saying. Doesn't. You know, anyway, number two. Not being attuned to the client's feelings and mislabelling them. Oh, I'm suggesting, for example, that the client is angry when they are sad is an empathic failure. It's crucial to listen very carefully prior to labelling a feeling. The therapist's role is to join the client and utilise the client's input to then label the feeling. A rush to labelling is a problem. Patients and being in the moment should be part of a good therapist's repertoire. Well, that told us. I mean, what they're talking about really is how important it is for a client to attune. Yeah. Number one, to attune to the client's process. Yeah. Secondly, which I agree both of these things want to say, not making assumptions. Yeah. Thirdly, not defining a person in terms of feelings or labelling or whatever it is. Yeah. I'll say again, that may happen. The bit that's really important is what the therapist does after they've made this so-called mistake. Yeah. And of course, if they can account for the rupture and then say, and in your history, the people who haven't listened to you or you felt defined by or misled by, you know, how about tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. That's the bit the therapist needs to go down. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, that second one, as well as the first one, it does sound very, you know, I don't know, just like you say, it's parental. It's very scripted and this is what you should do and this is what you shouldn't do. Yeah. Having led. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And, you know, sometimes we, I don't want to say, you know, I don't like making presumptions about clients and what the, you know, displaying is that the right thing that they're actually feeling inside? Because we've all got racket behaviors and we cover up things. We can't be feeling one thing, but we're presenting a different way. So again, there's lots of things that go on, you know, internally that we're not aware of. So it's about inquiring about things. You look this way. Is that what's actually going on type of thing? Correct. Absolutely correct. Yeah. I think that I'm going to take the word should out here, but I think it takes a long time to talk about there to train the therapist to move away from assumptions. Yeah. It's a very valid point, but it's not going to be done overnight. No. Because humans think of assumptions all the time. Yeah. I don't, I don't know whether it was in your training or, you know, somebody else's training, but it was mentioned to me about think alien. Literally. You know, we do have preconceived ideas about certain things and certain behaviors, whereas if we think alien, then we can inquire what's actually going on. Yeah. Think Martian. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's what Eric Byrne advised in, I don't know which book it is. I probably, I would think it's a script book, which is what they have to say in 1969. I think Martian. Yeah. And I use that a lot. I do because I'll get that instant thought or assumption in my mind. And then it's like, well, maybe that's not what's going on. Yeah. It's far, far best to do what you've just said. I had a big role with my cup of tea. Oh, that's not good. I leave all the talking to you now. Seriously, I think inquiry is the way forward. Yeah. Definitely. Number three or four. Number three or four. Go for it. I'm interested in checking out. Yeah. So I've heard this one frequently. I'm very saddened by it. I've heard several clients describe that this. So it appeared to. Checked out and even fallen asleep during the session. Oh my God. I've never done that. Oh God. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I've got a very good odd podcast, but the victim as well. Must have gone down the wrong way. Have you, have you ever pulled asleep? Checked out being bored or anything like that? Um, I haven't fallen asleep. And I wouldn't say that I've checked out, but possibly being bored. Sometimes. Yeah. Being completely honest and authentic about things. Yeah. be attuned to clients and pay attention to clients. Again, you need to follow that up by using it in terms of person's history. But you know, I would also like to talk about transplants in all this lot. And that is, if the client expects the other, or they've had it in their history, where their father, mother, important other people have checked out, not paid attention to them or neglected them, they will project those expected responses onto the therapist. Yeah. I think, for me, the times where I have sort of got bored is when I feel like they're deflecting, they're giving me too much information about a story, rather than actually getting to the point of things. There's lots of stuff to fluff it up and yeah, I don't know whether it's killing time somehow. You see, I think most of what happens when a co-created, in a co-created relationship with the therapist card is transplants from. Yeah. But I will actually say to them, maybe not necessarily I'm bored with the story, but I will say there's an awful lot of information that you're giving me that I'm not sure is relevant to what we were talking about and kind of pull them back into it somehow. Yeah. And if they've had, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. So I've definitely not fallen for it. Yeah. Next one on this list. I don't know where it's gone actually, but you know, they're all what they should, what your therapist should and shouldn't be done, you know, project their own issues onto their clients' lives. Well, that's easier said than done. Yeah, that's transplants and countertransplants, isn't it? That's part of the relationship, but it's being aware of it again. And, you know, if there is a rupture, using that as part of the process. Yeah. And also, you know, a lot, what we're talking about here in terms of transplants is unconscious phenomena. Yeah. So the therapist often isn't aware of it, or if they do become aware of it, they need to take the supervision then to therapist, you know, their own therapy. Yeah. Therapist. Yeah. Because of course it's not useful. So this is where the BACP, I know they're regulating bodies, but I'm picking on the BACP because I want to, who actually don't have a requirement for their counsellors to go to therapy. Yeah. And, you know, this is what we're talking about here is a really, you know, important for people to go and look at their own transplants. Yeah. Because otherwise, they could do this all time. Yeah. I think it's also worth mentioning as well that, you know, we have a life outside of the therapy room and things happen to us, you know, the life events and things like that, that we wouldn't be human if we didn't take some of that into the therapy room with us. Yeah. I still, yes, I agree completely with you. And I think it's the duty, a duty of therapists and counsellors to have their own therapy. Yeah. So that we can work for our own things rather than constantly taking it in the therapy room with us. Yeah. Because it's a really, if we don't do that, it's a really hard ask, actually. Yeah. Because we're not aware of it. Yeah. In the UK, CP is 160 hours. They have to do 40 hours a year. I've been, I've been in therapy, I was in therapy almost the duration of my 36 year of career. So I saw it as a sort of real sort of, I would say a real duty along, it's part of the job. Now I'm not suggesting, you know, to anybody listening, they have to be in therapy or access to therapy for all of their career. But I am suggesting that they need to have a good stint of therapy. I think the UK CP would say 40 therapy hours a year is quite good, 160 hours through training. It gives you a, it gives the therapist a chance to actually reflect on their own script. Yeah. And it would help stop or at least minimize the therapist projecting their own issues on a client. Yeah. I also think it's quite helpful for the client to maybe be aware that we've also experienced therapy. Yeah. It's kind of like having a baby and you find out that the midwife has never had kids. It's like you don't know what this feels like. You haven't experienced it firsthand. No, that's, it's very important. And so that's, that was another one, another one after this Psychology Today magazine. Therapists should talk about themselves too much. In other words, what they're really talking about is bringing their own ego into the therapy room. And, you know, the problem with that is if a client, if a therapist does that too much, they take away the opportunity for the client to talk, to talk, to talk about their own story, number one. And secondly, they've probably, the client again, has probably had a history of significant other people defining them all. Yeah. I think you said that. Did you, when you were seeing clients, did you do a checking? In group always. Checking. Yeah. Some therapists do just take five minutes to do a quick checking what the client's been up to and what you've been up to as a, you know, a start off to the therapy session and others don't. Oh, I have heard of therapists who, this is individually, who have said, okay, what you've been doing over the week in terms of getting some continuity from session to session. I've not heard of though, a therapist talking about what they've been doing for the week. Okay. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Yeah. I suspect in the so-called relational therapy term that we've had where relationship is key to, that I can see that, I can, my fantasy is I can imagine that that happening. Yeah. It's not one I, I'll go and prepare for, but not so, it's not one I approve of. I've not done it personally, but I've had it done with me. Where therapists are talking about what they've been doing through the week. Yeah. Why? I'm sorry, what's the clinical thinking behind that? I've no idea, but I did. I can remember thinking at the time, I'm paying for this time and you're using it up telling me about what you've done. Yes. Yeah. That was how I felt as the client. Absolutely. I haven't heard that clinical, I'd like to know the clinical thought behind that, if a therapist is going to talk about, well, I've been to Manchester City and I really enjoyed that and I went cooking with my friend and on Thursday we did this and then Friday I played with my sister. I mean, yeah. What's the clinical thought? I didn't understand it, but I do, I do get to check in with the client about how their week's been. I think that's different. Yeah. Yeah. Because they, you know, clinical thought could be saying you're providing a re-corrective experience, you're providing an accounting for continuity, you are, there's lots of clinical reasons to support, check in with the client's experience. I just can't think of anything the other way around. No, you need it. It doesn't mean it isn't. But getting back, yeah, it's one of the constant, we'll call it mistakes for therapists, I think, is to bring their ego into the room to the extent where shadows apply. I don't think that's useful. No. Because it's usually a repeat of history. Yeah. I'm not somebody who believes going the other way either completely the other way, whether you don't speak. So I think congruence is the best step here. Yes. And I think what you mentioned earlier and you mentioned it pretty much in every podcast as well is what is the therapeutic point of doing it? What, you know what I mean, what are you hoping for by doing that? Yeah. I know it's a treatment plan sort of thing. Yeah. Because I think, I think I probably do say the most podcast. But it's a very valuable thing and it's something that we do need to keep in our mind. You know, how is this going to serve the client? That's right. And I do it a lot in supervision, of course, which is promoting the therapist to think about clinical reasons. Yeah. So I'm not going to go on on, but I might mention another couple answering the phone. Oh, yeah, that's what you're falling off. Don't even have it in the room for goodness sake. That's made me cough even more. Yeah. Have you ever done that? No, no. I didn't have my phone in the room with me. And, you know, if there was an emergency, they would have to wait for the hour until I got the call. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. No, seriously, it's unbelievable, isn't it? Yeah. I can just about getting my head round if there's a real emergency. I don't know, like a client, yeah, a therapist came and said, oh, I did ask the phone because, you know, my doctor was phoning and if I didn't take the appointment, da, da, da. So I can just back up my head round that if the therapist at the beginning of the session are contracted for that. Yeah. Yeah. And it only lasted a couple of minutes. Yeah. But even then that feels uncomfortable for me. But yes, I agree. In certain situations, maybe it's a necessity, but yeah. Because that's that safe space. And, you know, yeah, it doesn't feel right for me that at all. No. It's a bit in the line. It's more, I was going to say, it's a bit in the same ballpark for my sake, taking extensive notes. Yeah. Yeah. And losing eye contact and losing the connection while you're writing your notes down and things. Yeah. But I think it's worse just this whole process about answering your mobile phone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's laughable. I'm surprised that's even in there. That's a bit obvious. Asking the client, how does that make you feel every other, you know, what they are about is the fact that clients who therapy soon repetitively are asking about how a client feels. But I think it's really important to ask how the client feels. I understand the repetitiveness might take away from the actual process. But I think I'll move away from all these because I think about this is there are so many things that are transferential by nature. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like you said earlier on, the thing to focus on is the rupture that it potentially can cause and how we use that as a gift in the therapy room. Because we will make mistakes. There is no, you know, we need to resign ourselves to the fact that we're not perfect. And we don't want to model perfection either. I think it's a difference difference between makes mistakes or ruptures and unethical behavior. Yes. Yeah. Now, okay, there's a gray area there. I understand that. But, you know, mistakes can become learning opportunities and gifts. Yeah. If we're talking about, you know, ethical discrepancies, I think is a different world. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, as a parent, that's one of the things that I used to instill in my children that it's a learning opportunity making a mistake. You know, if we get something wrong, it's an opportunity to learn how we can do better. Yeah. So it's an interesting topic, but I do think that the sort of ethical issues, I mean, really important ones here, are in a different ballpark. And of course, you know, the whole definition of training psychotherapists is around learning opportunities and how can a person learn to be a psychotherapist if they don't sort of learn by experience. And with that may come some so-called mistakes. Yeah. The most important is how you handle it afterwards. Definitely. I agree. And the other, you know, takeaway or learning from this podcast episode, if anybody's interested in, you know, what I take away from this podcast is not to Google things. Yeah. Because that list that you came up with of the 10 things, you know what I mean? I suppose it's a good starting point, but I often say, I say it quite a lot with my clients as well, is step away from Google. Google is not good. It's, you know, it's terrible. Yeah. It can be useful in some situations, but in most it's not very helpful at all. Most of the people I've ever tried to be there have such a high internal critic in themselves. Yeah. That they're always telling themselves off. Yeah. You know, I'm always dealing with that internal critic. So I'm always teaching about compassion. Yeah. Self-love. Yeah. And, you know, see these things as learning opportunities. Yeah. How we handle them. Yeah. Which is an important thing to talk about in supervision. Definitely. So I've really enjoyed this podcast, Bob. And I, you know, I know we've had a laugh during it, but, you know, that's another learning opportunity, not what the therapist is talking about. It's interesting. Certainly, I must apologize for everybody listening to my sudden attack of cough and I think it's the fig roll that I had just before. Now, if we're talking about making perfect podcasts, don't eat a fig roll before you go on to a podcast. Definitely. That's a learning takeaway from this as well. Yeah. No Google and no fig rolls. Until next time, Bob, what we're going to be looking at is how to work with the younger self in therapy, which I know we've touched on. You touch on this in a lot of, but we're going to be focusing on that. Yeah. But a lot of therapy, of course, is how you work with the younger self. Yeah. Yeah. Okie dokie. Until next time, Bob. Thank you. Bye. Take care. You've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.